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August 16, 2024 74 mins

We welcome back Pastor Scott Henrich, a WELS pastor serving in Knoxville, Tennessee.  His experiences reading historic Lutheran sermons inspired him to research Lutheranism's homiletical heritage in a way that may challenge some contemporary assumptions about the historic perception of Lutheran preaching. (See TLHP 39)

You can contact him here: scottwhenrich@gmail.com

Today he offers further thoughts and research after studying Walther's Pastoral Theology.

"While C. F. W. Walther needs no introduction for conservative American Lutherans, his Pastoral Theology does. Originally published in 1872, it was not translated into English in its entirety until 2017. (An abridged version, found under various titles, was published in 1995.) In it, Walther condenses a tradition of over 300 years of Lutheran pastoral practice. In a purely historical sense, it is a contribution of great interest, without which the non-specialist would be cut off from centuries of his heritage. Walther’s project, however, goes beyond remembrance, or even repristination. The “American” in the book’s original title (Americanisch-Lutherische Pastoraltheologie) was no accident (3). His intent was to help pastors apply that heritage, mined from God’s Word and initially expressed in the state churches of Europe, to their own time and place. To that end especially, this book is a gift to the Lutheran pastor." -S.H.

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  • About the Host
    • Benjamin Phelps is a 2014 graduate from Martin Luther College with a Bachelor of Arts with a German emphasis. From there went on to graduate from Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary in 2018.
      Ben loves all things history and enjoys traveling. A descendant of over a dozen Lutheran pastors, Ben has an interest in his family roots, especially 19th-century Lutheranism, and has written several papers and journal articles on the topic. His 2018 thesis on Wyneken won the John Harrison Ness award and the Abdel Ross Wentz prize. He is also the recipient of two awards of commendation from the Concordia Historical Institute.
      Ben is currently a doctoral student in historical theology through Concordia Seminary's reduced residency program in St. Louis.
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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben Phelps (00:38):
Welcome back to the Lutheran History podcast where
we cover over 500 years ofLutheran history. Today we
welcome back returning guests.
Pastor Scott hemorrhage is inKnoxville, Tennessee. Welcome
back Scott to the podcast today.
Thank you. Yeah, great to behere. I think last time I
mentioned my best qualificationas a historian was sitting next

(00:59):
to you in history class. I mighthave to change that. Now. I
don't know if I can. Can I spoilthis for your Patreon listeners?
They already know. The guestright in front of me. Can I can
I tell them? Go ahead. Yeah. BobCole is right in front of me. So
I'd be following Bob Kolb up andyeah. In some people's eyes
playlists. Yeah, no, he's Yeah,he's gonna come they will have

(01:22):
heard him I had the opportunityto hear him already. By the time
they they get to you. So yeah.
It's also by plotting for peopleto become your Patreon and Oh,
yes. Yeah, you get well, you gotYes. As you got a supporter, you
got the preview. So as we'rerecording now in March, you're
getting the getting the previewshot. Yeah. So today, Scott's
going to talk about Walterspastoral theology. So sometimes

(01:46):
we do this. He didn't writeWalters pastoral theology,
right. That's called Walterspastoral theology. But we often
talk about historic books thatwere either historically
significant in the past orhistorically relevant today. And
we'll get into a little bit howWalter also acted as a historian
writing pastoral theology, thereis that aspect to it too. But
Scotland review a little bithere. I just listened to our

(02:09):
last podcast from October 2022.
That's when it aired, hisLutheran preaching changed. And
at the end, I asked if any otherprojects are gonna do anything
else? And he said, Well, that'sthis is a one time thing. I'm
not really historian. I don'tsee my interest take up here.
And yet here you are, again,Scott. So where are you? Where
are you back at a Historypodcast, even though you keep on

(02:30):
saying I'm not a historian, Ithink you're protesting a bit
too much.

Unknown (02:36):
To borrow a line from Dan Carlin, Hardcore History,
he'd say, I'm not a historian,but I'm a fan of history.
I'm a fan of history. So I am afan of, and I'm the son of a fan
of history, my dad is alwayssending me history podcasts to
listen to. So I've, I like thiskind of stuff. It's interesting.
But then, especially whenhistory ends up affecting your

(02:59):
own worldview, and even your ownpractice, that's when you can
really see the value of it. Andthis is very much true for the
topic we're talking about today,doing this history and
historical theology abouthomiletics how people taught and
thought about preaching. That'svery applicable for what I'm

(03:19):
doing. I'm preaching sermonsevery week, sometimes multiple
times a week. It's the mostimportant thing I do, it really
matters. I really care about it.
So there was a desire to keepimproving, keep studying, which
led me into the conversationwe'll be having today.

Ben Phelps (03:37):
That's awesome. I you know, I think, of course,
I'm a firm believer history isalways relevant to people. And
it just takes some some timepeople are in denial of that,
and they discover it, andthey're a true believer. And I'm
glad you're a true believer inthe historical relevancy that
the past can help us with out ineveryday stuff, too. So I will
of course, encourage everyone tolisten again or to listen to the

(03:59):
first time to our lastconversation has Lutheran
preaching changed. We talked alot about big picture stuff, but
you did some research, and hetalked about historical Lutheran
sermons, and made somecomparisons there. But just for
now, for a quick recap of that,can you briefly summarize that
previous conversation and howthis has led to this follow up
discussion today?

Unknown (04:21):
Sure, I would be happy to the big idea was was a study
of what sermons used to soundlike when a Lutheran pastor got
a Lutheran pulpit and to comparethat to what we are used to
hearing today, especially in ourcircles, and you might say
Wisconsin Synod circles or evenjust conservative Lutheran
circles more generally, and kindof went into it with a thesis to

(04:44):
study the law, gospel dynamicand sermons and that's a
particular term to say we're notjust talking about
distinguishing law and gospel.
Hopefully that will always be apart of all Lutheran preaching,
at least it should be. But thedynamic is this dynamic
of condemnation and thenresurrection. So I think about
it like this, that you mighthave a clear sermon from a

(05:08):
Lutheran pulpit. And it could beon any variety of texts. And
hopefully theyexpound the text despise the
text. But there's always, Iguess, a subtext often in our
circles, I might think aboutthat as the Romans 323 to 24
subtext All have sinned and fallshort of the glory of God, but
all are justified freely by hisgrace, and that is always kind

(05:29):
of the foundation or thecenterpiece of a Lutheran
sermon. So I made a comparison,in my last paper, like Billy
Graham would preach on a bunchof different texts, and we're
talking about them, but really,he was always preaching on John
316. And he was totally okaywith that. He'd say that's,
that's what I'm here to do isevangelistic sermons. I think

(05:51):
many in our circles would bepretty much okay with what I
just characterized. Ourpreaching as like now that law
gospel dynamic really should bethe center of our sermons, my
thesis, which for me is notcontestable anymore. I think
it's just obviously trueLutheran preaching that that
style of preaching is a newdevelopment within the last

(06:13):
maybe 50 to 70 years, that sortof intense focus on that
dynamic. Historically, that'snot how Lutheran is preached.
And if that's a new idea toanybody, I would just invite
them to read old sermons, readany old homiletics book. And if
you find things that seemdifferent to you, please send
them my way. I'd love to readthem. But I haven't really found

(06:34):
much at all.

Ben Phelps (06:39):
Yeah, so that that thesis of yours. Okay, I've had
a while ago. Is that only beenstrengthened? Now, you said it's
to the point where you're doingeven question isn't really
a thesis that doesn't need muchdefense anymore. So you've grown
into your convictions? It seemslike

Unknown (06:54):
that is true. Yeah, just more the more I read, the
more Ithink about it, they're there,
the more obvious it's become tome, but I still want to lay some
of that groundwork, because Iwas really surprised coming
across this three, four yearsago. And for any of our
listeners who haven't thoughtthis through, again, we talked
about this last time, Lutheransare very historically conscious.
And we try not to be innovators.

(07:18):
So yeah, this could be a verysurprising thing. And there'll
be just a kind of a gut reactionto say, Now, that's not true. So
it's, I think it's good to kindof talk through some of their
send, lay some of thatgroundwork, even though Yeah,
for me, it's just not reallydebatable.

Ben Phelps (07:35):
All right, well, thanks for that context, again,
third time, and I'll stoptalking about it. But listen to
that the previous episode, ifyou want more of the, the big
picture stuff, but here's justthe specific guy we're talking
about today. Who isyou're not reading him
necessarily to reinforce thatthesis, but simply, I believe,
to gain more insight on thewhole topic of historic Lutheran
preaching, I believe so we'retalking about CSW? Walthers

(07:57):
pastoral theology. We've talkedabout him a bunch of times, but
again, just for the sake of ouraudience today. Who is the white
What is the matter? Why is herelevant to her or discussion
today?

Unknown (08:12):
Sure. So Si, FW Walther, Lutheran theologian, in
the 1800s, emigrated fromGermany to Missouri. He's
commonly called the AmericanLutheran, and that sums him up
pretty well in a lot of ways.
Much of his theology is veryself consciously Luthers
theology, he's very well readand Luther, his impact is almost
like Luther is impact he verymuch reverberates for all

(08:36):
conservative Lutherans today.
Also an attitude, right? You canbe pretty trenchant in his
opinions, andnot always very kind to his
opponents, that that all kind ofplays into it, too. So yeah,
towering thinker figure inAmerican Lutheranism. And it
plays in today, because I hadread a bunch of his sermons
before but hadn't read aboutkind of more formally how he

(09:00):
thought about preaching andhomiletics. He never wrote a
homiletics textbook. But thathis pastoral theology, there is
a substantive chapter onpreaching as it fits into
pastoral care more generally.
And it really, at least fromwhat I can tell, it really
functions as a pretty goodsynopsis of what his political

(09:21):
theology was. So that reallycaught my interest. Okay. I want
to see how he's thinking aboutthe theological basis. That
would be to the sermons that Ihad read from him.

Ben Phelps (09:35):
Yeah, so your focus is not necessarily on all of the
pastoral theology? We looked atthat, or you looked at that, but
yeah, we're going to talk aboutthe sermon section because
that's that's the relevant partfor our discussion today.
So I something I noticed as Iwas reading through at least
this section of pastoraltheology prior to our discussion

(09:56):
today, is that Walters alsothinking not just as a theory
logia not just as a preacher asa pastor, but he has his own
historicalmindset. Do you have anything to
say about that? What we saw? Washe working as a historical
theologian in this text?

Unknown (10:13):
Yeah, so he's very self consciously seen himself as an
inheritor of a theologicaltradition of his time, 300 years
of Lutheranism. But the issuewas that he that tradition had
existed almost entirely inGermany. So now he's, he's
taking that tradition in hispastoral theology and

(10:35):
translating that to his newcontext in America for his own
sake, but then also as theleader of the Missouri Senate,
for the sake of all of hisstudents, as a seminary
professor, for the sake of hisSynod. So he's he's very much
doing historical theology in thebest way, not just acid dry,
kind of abstract facts ofhistory, but learning from the

(10:58):
past or learning from the bestof the past, and then seeking
them to apply in the present. Sowhat you're getting that you're
much more of a historicaltheologian than I am no, that's
good. And I think it's goodbecause you're, you're
emphasizing the practicality ofit.

Ben Phelps (11:12):
And yeah, he's doing that, I think any you mentioned
to like, he just quotes a lotfrom from Luther, but also, he's
referencing dead guys a lot.
They're not just biblicalauthors, right? He's, he's
referencing other other Lutheranpreachers, too, as you, as you
said, to transfer to communicatethat Lutheran preaching heritage
and, you know, it might be saidto he's trying to recover

(11:33):
something, he didn't necessarilyhave the advantage of himself
growing up,kind of in the era of
rationalism, and some extremeforms of quietism. You know,
what drew him to Martin Stephenwas, this guy's kind of unique,
that wasn't commonplace, but nowhe's trying to make what he
views as common Lutherantheology and preaching practice,

(11:54):
or at least what it should be.
But he's also backing it up withhistorical text. So he's, I
don't know if he's doingnecessarily Lutheran
Renaissance, trying to get backto the the Reformation or the
Lutheran orthodox heritage, butthat's kind of what I picked out
of the text.

Unknown (12:13):
Yeah, and just, you mentioned how much he quotes
Luther, that's a value. We'regoing to talk mostly about the
preaching chapter, but a valueof the entire book. Obviously,
Martin Luther did not write thepastoral theology. But Walter
was very well read and Lutherand pulls together all of the
different Lutheran quotesLuthers quotes about pastoral
theology and applies them forus. So it's really useful for

(12:37):
someone like me, I'm probablynot going to read all of what
are we up to 70 different worksfrom Martin Luther. But while
there, it gives us a really goodsynopsis of how Luther viewed
pastoral theology. So there's ahuge value in this book, just
for that. It's like reading thebest of Luther on pastoral
theology. So yeah, we'll talkabout the preaching section. But

(12:57):
the entire book was valuable.

Ben Phelps (13:00):
Yeah. So let's get into that preaching section. I
know you're eager to talk aboutit. And please take your time.
This is the guy that the meat ofthe of the topic today, what
were some of his main points onon preaching, but can you
summarize for us?

Unknown (13:14):
Sure, yeah. His first one is, preaching really, really
matters in a way that mightsurprise some people, even we
all take our sermon seriously,at least I hope, but he very
clearly says right off the bat.
Preaching is the chief means ofgrace. This is the chief way in
which God distributes the meritsof Jesus and the blessings of

(13:36):
Christ on his people throughpreaching through public
proclamation of His Word. Andthis is then obviously the chief
task of the pastor, that he's apastor, his most important job
is getting in the pulpit andproclaiming God's word to God's
people. And I say that might besurprising. Maybe it's not I
mean, that is what matters mostthat's the joke we get right? We

(13:58):
work one day a week. Some ofthat joke comes from the
recognition of how important itis of pretty by preaching on
that one day a week. But thereis a in some ways a move against
that people will see HolyCommunion as
Yeah, the most concentrated formof the gospel or baptism is
really the core of our identity.
That's, that's really good,where we're not playing the

(14:18):
sacraments often against eachother. But to just highlight
preaching the incredible giftthat it is that it is the most
important thing even thathappens on Sunday morning. And
Walter talks about that. Hesays, It doesn't matter how good
you are at the liturgy. Or youmight say today, how well you
can chant or whatever it mightbe even how good you are at
pastoral care in general. Ifyou're a bad preacher, you're

(14:40):
going to be way less effectiveand way less of a blessing to
God's people. Maybe not just badisn't how talented you are, but
if you're not taking this job,seriously, and that's where
Walther can, he really comes outswinging where he will say this
is because this is so important.
but there's also the quickestpath the pastor has to guilt and

(15:04):
condemnation, if he's not takingthis seriously, if he's lazy,
yes, it's a great list of 19thcentury side hustles that you
might get caught up in saying,Yeah, you're caught up and all
that other stuff. If you're busyand you're not carefully
studying for your sermons,giving it your absolute best.
They're cursed. You aren't beingyou're misusing this really

(15:28):
important office God has givento you. So just with the time
you put into it, the seriousnesswith which you take it, he talks
about writing out your sermonsas young pastors don't just fly
off the cuff. Maybe when you getolder, you can go more often
outline, but take this reallyseriously.
That nothing can ever replaceproper preaching is what he

(15:49):
says. And I've heard anecdotesof that from different
congregants, I've talked to youthey'll talk about their former
pastor hurt, or this I thoughtone guy that, yeah, he was kind
of a jerk to us. But he was areally good preacher, and he was
a blessing to our church.
That's, that's a good thing tokeep in mind.

Ben Phelps (16:10):
Yeah, I've heard those kind of stories to and you
know, his list of side hustlesthey're not some of them are
dated, but others, you know, Ithink he even highlighted in
your notes like scholarlypursuits. And you know, here I
am doing continuing to add, youknow, it's true. You got to
prioritize things and you canpastor can easily start to
justify while I'm doing this,and spending time with my

(16:31):
people, or I need to take careof myself, I need to have some
recreational time and you know,watching sports or hunting or
fishing, whatever it might be,you know, that's how I do that
for my people. But how quicklythose those justifications can
turn into distractions from thethe high calling of the of the
preacher that that Walter'spointing out. So yeah, I don't

(16:51):
think too many pastors can readthat section, and walk away
totally unscathed. And say noproblems here. Nothing for me to
think about. So yeah, he cuts tothe heart. If there's anything
there. Yeah. And it definitelyfires you up, I think in a good
way. Yeah. There's some guilt.
Okay, I should work harder. But,man, what an awesome blessing.
So as we record, I just finishedup writing my Easter sermon.

Unknown (17:16):
Man, I get to stand in front of a bunch of people and
preach God's word. That's,that's an incredible thing. Even
in our culture today, no onethat that just doesn't happen.
100 200 people get in a room andlisten to a guy talk. And pay
attention, at least a littlebit. That's completely unique.
And we have that in church. Andwe get to talk about something

(17:38):
that matters more than anythingelse, man that it really fires
you up. And it might notes to asLenski wrote a homiletics book,
and he'll talk about howchurches can be so beautiful.
But pastors can get in thepulpit and preach on an ugly
sermon, what a terrible thing.
So to think about the beauty andthe power of the message of the
Word of God, and then justhighlights the absolute

(17:59):
privilege it is to proclaim thatword publicly to God's people.

Ben Phelps (18:06):
Yeah, so that's just kind of he's just getting
started, right? He's justgetting warmed up about the
preachers attitude about hisvocation, this this task. What
does he get into specifics nowabout
preparing a sermon presentingit?

Unknown (18:21):
Yeah, right off the bat. The first point seems kind
of obvious sermons must containand solely contain God's word.
You're not going to preach onanything else except the Word of
God. But then how you applyGod's word to God's people how
you present it must be in apure, unadulterated fashion. So

(18:42):
this is the only time hedirectly mentions law and
gospel. And I think I mentionedthat in the last podcast, that
was a surprise to me how, howlittle historical theology,
theologians or theologians inthe past talked about law and
gospel where today we mightthink about that as the primary
thing we should be thinkingabout when we think about

(19:03):
sermons. We'll get into thatmore as we go. But for
wealthier, he sees law andgospel not as necessarily what
you're doing when you'repreaching, you're not getting
out there and doing lawn gospel.
But instead, this is what youdistinguish as you are
presenting God's word to God'speople, you are careful to
distinguish law and gospel,you're really conscious of the

(19:23):
order of salvation, how thesetexts apply to different people
at different points in in theirspiritual journey to think that
through so both are does talkabout long gospel right off the
bat. But it's notable that thatwas for only one paragraph, and
then one Luther quote, andthat's it any very quickly moves
on to what he says, is the chiefthing you're doing when you get

(19:46):
into a pulpit, so we can talkabout that but anything on on
that first point? No, I thinkthat's it's a point well taken.

Ben Phelps (19:56):
I think you mentioned in the in the hinoki
homiletics. Right. Log gospelalso gets like one

Unknown (20:00):
And page ish or something like that. Yeah. Just
there's maybe a pattern there ofYep. It's important. Maybe it's
assumed we already know thisalready. I don't know. But
there's something more going onhere. So yeah, what what is his
outcome that is outlined, butwhat is his await method of way
of presenting the Word of God?
Sure. So the primary thingyou're thinking you get into a

(20:21):
pulpit, you're preaching God'sword. But what does that mean?
Well, the first thing you'rethinking as you are teaching, so
he gets into what was theprimary way of thinking about
preaching for 400 years ofLutheranism, the fivefold use of
Scripture. So for a secondTimothy three and Romans 15,
you're teaching your reproof asreproof against false doctrine.

(20:43):
It's correcting sins, yourtraining and righteousness, and
you're comforting people. That'sthe fivefold use. But these
aren't all seen as equallyimportant. I guess the Walther
is very clear as the foundationfor everything else is teaching,
clearly expository God's wordand clearly, you might say,
delineating the teachings ofScripture. That is the most

(21:05):
important thing a preacher isdoing when he gets into the
pulpit is teaching. And that'smaybe self evident, right? You
have to lay a foundation beforeyou start to apply things, but
maybe it's not self evident ifyou listen to a lot of servants
in our world today. So a quotefrom Walther is that no matter

(21:27):
how rich a sermon is, andadmonitions, rebukes and
encouragement, if there is noteaching in it, then it is
nevertheless an empty meagersermon. It's admonitions,
rebukes, and encouragement, arefloating in thin air. So people
walk into a church, and you juststart throwing things like do
this, do that and feel bad forthis or feel good because of

(21:48):
this. If they're not rooted inthe text that's in front of you,
and the doctrines of Scripturejust kind of bounce right off of
you. They don't really meananything. So you have to more
patiently build a foundation ofreally good solid teaching,
before you go swinging away. Andthen this is the path to the
true blessing of a sermon. Sowhile there is very clear that

(22:10):
this is a gift, or revealing thethoughts of God to God's people,
and that really does something,he says the true growth of a
congregation in Christ is notpossible without sermons that
have thorough teaching in them.
Whoever permits this to beabsent is not faithful in his
ministry, even if he appears tobe using himself up in the

(22:31):
Facebook here for the souls andtrust it to him with his
fervent, steady admonitions,reproofs or other
encouragements. And I'mbelaboring this a little bit,
because, in our context, today,at least as pastors, we kind of
get this this idea thatpreaching and teaching are
distinct from each other. Andthat's a recent doctrinal

(22:52):
development, at least as far asI can tell, from Gearheart 30.
And I think it's useful to thinkabout those as, in some ways
different were preaching is thatdirect application and teaching
is more a step removed fromthat. But this highlighted for
me that that distinction is justnot a historic one. It's not

(23:13):
common in the Lutheranconfessions, or Lutheran
theologians, and not a biblicalone, either, at least as far as
I can tell. At least using thosecategories. And Walters is
really clear. Teaching is themost important thing. And again,
sometimes in our circles willsay, Yeah, teaching and that's
for Bible study. Yeah. sermons.
That's for preaching. Right. Wehear that a lot. And if you

(23:34):
start to talk more aboutdoctrinal details, say that for
Bible study was very clearlypassed on to us. So this
section, what was a bit of asurprise to me just how serious
seriously, Walter takes this andhow important it is.

Ben Phelps (23:51):
Yeah, to that point, you know, I've heard that
applied outside of the circlesyou and I
grew and learned together thatyeah, saving for Bible study,
and no doubt, there's some timeswhere, okay, that's really,
really tricky. Or there might besome emotions involved, or it's
really complex. And you probablywant to have the opportunity to
have dialogue with your studentsto make sure they understand you

(24:13):
the right way. But I think, inmy opinion, now, it could be
over over done sometimes, right?
Wherethe teaching Act, the teaching
process is best regulated toBible study. And, you know,
practically speaking, sadly, youknow, I wish we the your
attendance on Sunday morning forworship would be identical to
your Bible study. But that'salso, sadly, typically not the
case a lot, you get a lot ofdrop off for people. So if you

(24:36):
want to teach your people, asyou said to that broad audience,
now that the sermons have beenplaced to do it, and Walter is
saying, you need to do it tohave a sermon with content.

Unknown (24:50):
Yeah, and well, there's points that can kind of circle
around here. So later on, hetalks about laying out the whole
counsel of God, we might getinto some more details of that
later.
But he says if you don't includepart of God's counsel in your
preaching, you're basicallyripping that away from God's
people who deserve to have allof the counsel of God.

(25:11):
And that's a serious thing tothink, Okay, what am I
presenting to God's people? Andif I'm saying, I'm going to say
that to Bible study, another wayof saying that is I'm going to
rip that teaching away from 80%of my church, or whatever our
average is, I think, usually,it's yeah, maybe about a fifth
of our church actually goes toBible study in our circles. So

(25:32):
yeah, again, well, ThursdayBible study itself wasn't really
a thing. There's a slightlydifferent context. But man, this
point, I think really stands ifyou're going to do serious
application of God's word thatmust be built on a foundation of
solid teaching.

Ben Phelps (25:50):
That and just to add one more little historical point
on top, you know, Luther, andmany others we're, we're known
to do, we still have thecatechetical sermons, they maybe
weren't necessarily your Sundaymorning sermon, but

Unknown (26:03):
they would preach sermons specifically to teach
maybe a specific audience orjust to teach in general. So
very common, sometimes it wouldalmost be the whole point of the
sermon. All right, so let's gotone down four more to go. I
fully use. Let's get going moremore quickly through these these
are all less important than thanteaching. But an obvious

(26:27):
corollary of presenting thetruth is refuting the a
falsehood. So the next uses ofScripture is reproving. false
teaching. If you love the truth,you hate falsehood. This is,
yeah, well, while there talksabout, we have to be really
careful. As we do this, we wantto be emotionally sensitive and

(26:48):
cognizant of what our lifeissues for our people because
they might not have that rightnot be really worried about
something that you're worriedabout. I heard an anecdote from
a pastor that he was soconcerned to include so much
apologetics in his sermons, andhe'd always talk about how these
passages from Scripture areverifiable, and they stand up to

(27:09):
scrutiny. And here are all thesedifferent ways people try to
tear away the truth from thesepassages. And as people said to
him, I didn't even know peep,some people didn't believe that
the Red Sea wasn't reallyparted, or that the flood didn't
happen. And you kind of openedthe door for them to doubt some
of God's word veryinadvertently. So yeah, we want

(27:31):
to be, I think, really wise aswe do this. And that impressed
me as I read this section, whenI think about Walter, at least,
maybe just based on how scaryhis picture is, I picture him as
just, you know, yelling atpeople, and this is the truth
and all you terrible people whodon't get it. But he always
talks here in a very emotionallyand spiritually sensitive way to

(27:54):
have a live understanding ofwhat live issues are for people
to carefully refute those. Butnot to get out over your skis,
right to try to talk aboutthings you don't really know or
issues that are deeper thanreally your understanding.
This is a good one and one I'mactively trying to apply to my
preaching too. And it's astruggle for us. Because our

(28:17):
people today aren't what peopleare struggling with it. It's not
always obviously false doctrine.
In a way it might have been atWall Thursday, like the dangers
of Methodism. For us, it's moresecularism, which is a false
theology in itself. But it'syeah, it's good to think through
if I'm going to present thetruth I do need to refute the
the lies that Satan is stillspreading in our in our world.

Ben Phelps (28:41):
Yeah, you're talking about his, what you what
impressed you about him here. Ifyou look at him, he's definitely
a man who's mature. And so thisis really later on in his life.
I think a key thing that yourecognize when it went to
Lutheran theologians, skilledand good, he knows how to talk
about all the issues that werethe balance needs to be found,

(29:02):
rather than this is the onlyright way kind of reducing it to
one one or two things right.
He's got a much fuller picturehere.
Yeah.

Unknown (29:13):
Yeah, definitely. And then to take that kind of
general Okay, refuting falseteaching out there. But then
very much related to that as thenext one your your rebuking
sins, that people are again,struggling with. And this is
again, where He's surprisingly,emotionally sensitive. He quotes
I'll see an area where he talksabout how we have to be careful

(29:33):
not to be bitter as you refutethings. And because if you're
bitter, then you Ambetter theminds of your hearers you turn
them away unnecessarily, butinstead you're calm, you're
you're patient. You had a reallygood piece of advice said if
you're talking about somethingyou know is going to be
sensitive. Think it throughahead of time, write it out
carefully. And even you mighteven say maybe even practice

(29:55):
what you're going to say weighthe words weigh their impact,
because yeah, when yourebuke Eid sins, you're often
getting that idols that are, ifyou're doing it right, you're
getting that idols that are veryclose to people's hearts. So you
want to do whatever you can toavoid
unnecessary hardening of theirhearts. And you can do that if
you exaggerate if you speak overthe top if you're not careful in

(30:18):
your words, so rebuke sins, butdo it carefully and with the
goal of we need people torepent, it's not with a goal of
just making yourself feel likeyou know, Jeremiah, or whoever
of the prophets.

Ben Phelps (30:31):
Yeah, you know, this is a good point, as you
reproving you know, or rebukingfalse doctrine that may be seen
as like an external thing,unless you got like a rampid
heresy that's become popular inyour congregation, which
usually doesn't happen. Maybe anindividual maybe listens to the
wrong podcast, or for somereasons, watching bad sermons

(30:52):
from other places online, andit's influencing them, right.
It's probably that can be asmuch a personal issue but this
part rebuking since the kind ofgotta treat this with like
surgical care and precision,right, you're going to be
touching some nerves, like yousaid, if you're doing this,
right.
But you have to do it anyway.
Right. So to kind of save andserve the the hearer. Yeah. So
good, quote, good quotes on thatsection, too.

Unknown (31:16):
Sure. And then yeah, these really flow together in a
way that I don't know if Paulreally intended them to flow
together in Second Timothy, it'dbe interesting to learn more
about the reception history ofthis fivefold use. But this
flows right into training andrighteousness. So you've taught
people a bunch of stuff,reviewed false teaching, rebuked
specific sins. But now you needto encourage people to use the

(31:41):
good teachings that you havegiven them. And this is this
analogy gets abused a littlebit. But the best way I could
think of this, as I readWalters, he wants you to be like
a coach, you're thinking aboutyourself, almost like, you know,
the cross country coach who'syelling at his runners to run
something, like they obviouslyalready want to run fast. But
you're there to help them andencourage them to run even

(32:04):
harder. And that's how he wantsyou to think about your people
you want, they want to followGod's word. And they want to he
says they want to live for theone who died for them. They want
to be renewed in his image. Soif they hear the voice of their
gracious God in their pastor,they do not want to resist it.
So think about it, like, like acoach, or my youngest daughter

(32:25):
is learning to walk and we'restanding right there and
encouraging her to walk. That'show pastors should act. And
yeah, this hit home for me too,because

Ben Phelps (32:36):
sometimes in our circles, the law can get
presented, always with a caveatof Yeah, you know, you can't do
this anyway. And you're notgoing to be perfect. And well,
if you do keep it, don't thinkyou're earning your own
righteousness by doing it. Allthose caveats with God's word.
And that's very different fromthe approach. Walter is
advocating here that you talk tothem, like Christians want to

(32:59):
follow God's word, you encouragethem. And then while they're
sites, Luther, who cites Paultalks about how Paul does this.
So so often in his letter is,even to the point where it might
seem like He's overdoing it allis always coaching up his
congregations, as he might say,to renew themselves in God's
image to live as children of Godto put their faith into practice

(33:22):
in their in their daily lives.
So this is something that, yeah,we don't just present the truth
and say, take it or leave it.
Now you encourage them to takeit up and make it their own.
Yeah, and again, some goodinsight here some good balance,
right? You know, a lot of lot ofpeople might say, well, it's
natural for a Christian to wantto do the right thing. You know,

(33:43):
just just tell reaffirm the goodnews to them, and they'll
naturally do it anyway. While hemay say it's, it's not an either
or so often, it turns into it'sboth adequate, yes, they will,
their new men created in themwill naturally want to follow
God's law, but they also needthat, that coaching is are you
saying that training andrighteousness that that
character being built up right?
All the way Paul talks a lot,right that you need some

(34:07):
direction, you need to be toldthat to after all, you still
have a sinful nature that needsto be kept in check while you're
encouraging the the new man soit's both that natural and and
encouragement thing. And authoris making that point here, which
is, which is a key thing for alot of guys to remember. Is
they're prepping their sermons.
Yeah. And then yeah, basically,a way of thinking about what you

(34:31):
just said is, this is built on afoundation of really good
teaching. You're not just comingout swinging, saying, Do this
and try harder. But you'relaying out the text of
Scripture, the comfort and thehope that's found there, the

Unknown (34:45):
gift of Jesus for us and then the goodness of God's
law, you're explaining how thisis actually a blessing to you.
So that all that is necessary ifChristians are going to really
want to live like Christians, wedon't just expect that for them
to have thatdesire, not in a vacuum, but
with with no teaching thatpropels them to have that
desire. Again, this is all builton that careful teaching. But

(35:08):
yeah, here and then allthroughout Walthers pastoral
theology. Yeah, it just it, Iguess kind of surprised me how
he was really he didn't, I can'tthink of a single time where he
said, you know, you can't dothis perfectly anyway, he really
expects for God's people to growGod's people to practically be
able to follow God's law intheir daily lives. Of course,

(35:31):
there are technical caveatsthere, they can't do it
perfectly. Romans seven stillexists, but he doesn't talk in a
way that is, in my experience,pretty common in our circles and
a sense of encouraged somebodybut you know, you can't really
do it anyway. No, justconfidently speak to them. Like
we heard Jesus say in one of ourin our gospel reading for Lent

(35:53):
five, if you want to be mydisciple, you hate your life,
and you hate your life in thisworld and you, that's how you
gain eternal life. Jesus doesn'tsay, you know, you're not going
to be fully committed to meanyway, you're not perfect, you
actually just assumes that, thatwe will be and speaks about that
as a necessary thing. For thosewho would follow him.

Ben Phelps (36:16):
Now, he doesn't seem to be promoting kind of this the
status quo idea, I come tochurch one way and bothered for
a little bit, but then I'm toldeverything's gonna be okay in
the end, and I kind of justrevert back to that right. Good
preaching should impact thehearer and produce a change in
heart and mind wherever it maybe. Maybe applicable, including

(36:38):
this this last point, which isthe save the best for last, I
guess.

Unknown (36:44):
It is comfort and hope.
So while there is quote is usingthe word of God for teaching is
the foundation of every sermon,using it for comfort and hope
must be the constant goal.
Romans 15, for these things thatwere written were written to
give us encouragement. And it'snotable how author talks about
this encouragement, wedefinitely right the center of

(37:06):
our encouragement is theforgiveness of sins one by Jesus
on the cross. Walther was verycognizant that Lutherans view
this, as you know, the chiefarticle upon which the church
stands or falls, the bloodbought forgiveness, of Jesus.
But that's not all that is meantby comfort and hope that God
would give you some of it ismore general, life is really

(37:26):
hard. And God is on your side,he's going to get you through
it. And obviously, you know thatGod is on your side, because
your sins are forgiven throughChrist. But there's this, I
guess, full throated comfort andhope for all of the Christians
life. This reminded me of someways. Sometimes Martin Luther
talks about, you know, theGospel according to the first
article. So not just secondarticle gospel, Your sins are

(37:49):
forgiven, but have a fullpicture of a God who provides
for his children who guidesthem. All that is included in
comfort and hope and gospelproclamation, including even the
hope to keep doing good works.
That's part of this comfort andhope, while they're talks about
you give them hope that theirworks, good works done in the
Lord are not done in vainimprovement, and doing these
works is possible. And so thisis something that Walter is

(38:13):
always aiming at, or encouragingus to aim at, no matter what
we're preaching from. He says,There is no passage of scripture
in which a true evangelicalpreacher cannot extract rich
encouragement for believingChristians, which is very true.
And we've talked plenty about,you know, avoiding cookie cutter
sermons. So how do we do that?

(38:35):
Well, that's why we talk aboutthis full throated
encouragement, God has lots ofdifferent ways to give us hope
and his word. So we booked forthat hope in different passages
of Scripture, and then verywillingly excitedly pass that on
to God's people. God is God ison your side. And we know all
this salt are built on thatfoundation of justification we

(38:57):
have through the light by faithin Christ.

Ben Phelps (39:01):
All right.
Yeah, good. So five parts.
Hopefully everyone could rattlethem off as you're listening to
this I haven't memorized if notjust kind of listen to it again,
or you know, pick up a copy ofpastoral theology but an
excellent and deeper way toactually be able to preach the
text with also embracing thethat maybe the individual
nuance, right, you have to havethat content there with the

(39:23):
teaching and take it from there.

Unknown (39:27):
While there is he's presenting this, this kind of,
in a sense, obvious. This is howLutheran think about preaching
this fivefold use. But thatdoesn't mean it can't be abused,
which is, yeah, I mean, we'vebeen teachers and preachers for
long enough we know people cantake our words and just suck all
the nuance out of them. Oh,Pastor, I got what you meant.

(39:49):
Had to have happy to be a greatway recently, like no actually
wasn't talking about the war inIsrael when I was preaching that
point, but you took it that way.
Yeah, he talks about how peoplepreachers will think about this
fivefold use and then abuse thisparadigm. Like they're playing a
harp with only five strings. Andthey'll just, you know,
mechanically pluck the fivestrings as they're preaching.

(40:10):
And that's funny because thatreminds me a bit of, you know,
the the criticism I might haveof long gospel preaching where
it can, no one actually teachesyou to mechanically approach
every text with law, thatgospel. As far as I can tell, no
one actually says we shouldpreach like that. But we still
hear it frequently.

(40:33):
The same thing is true withthis, while there's very careful
to say, you know, don't justapply this paradigm
mechanically, no matter what thetext is, he quotes, you might
say, the OG Lutheran haveLeticia and rombach already in
the 1700s. And he's talkingabout how people already back
then were abusing the fivefolduse of Scripture. So he's, he's

(40:55):
cognizant of the abuses that arepossible with this sort of
system. But he still finds greatvalue in it. And he still just
assumes this is what Lutheransbelieve preaching is all about,
because these are the usesscripture claims for itself. And
second, Timothy, and Romans 15.

Ben Phelps (41:14):
Yeah. Good. Doing a little, you know, the way Walter
talks, I think, when he he'stalking about what Lutheran is
do he almost always sounds likehe assumes, well, of course,
that's what all true, all trueLutheran think, or do this as
part of his style, but I guessyou can just say he's a
confident guy convinced of hisconvictions. But there's

(41:37):
obviously like you said,historical precedent to this,
that he's not just making thisup and saying, of course,
everyone's gonna see it my way.
But, yeah, so good advice there,right. This isn't just, oh, I
had a two part template. Now Ihave a five part template, and
it will be I'll fix all myproblems as a preacher, but

Unknown (41:54):
look very much as the arbiter of true
Lutheranism. And very much likeLuther, like, I'm gonna lecture
the Pope, because why not?
That's what Luther did. Walterwill lecture everybody on what
true Lutheranism is all about.
So he takes us it's fivefold useof Scripture, and then he gives
us some more nuance.

(42:14):
As he goes on, in his writingtalks about I think the the real
one I want to highlight is howsermons must contain the whole
counsel of God for theirsalvation of their hearers. So
this is getting some more meaton that bone of Scripture.
There's our sermons are built oncareful teaching. While there
makes a lot of what Paul says tothe Ephesian elders think x 20,

(42:38):
about how he's innocent of theirblood. Why? Well, because he did
not withhold, or you talk tothem all of Scripture, all of
the teachings of God's Word, hepassed that on to them. And so
for us as preachers to realizewe have the responsibility to
preach the text right in frontof us, that's very important.
But then also in a, you mightsay, more holistic way to think

(43:01):
about all of Scripture. And wehad the responsibility to pass
all of that on to God's people,as well. And this is something
that requires some nuance andsome careful planning, and we
shouldn't just expect that thiswill happen. So and he talks
abouthow a careful preacher should
think ahead to the differenttexts that are coming. And then
kind of have two differentthings running in his mind a

(43:24):
list of the major doctrines thatpeople should know. And then
also a list of the differenttexts that are coming up in the
lectionary and then try to fitthose together. Which is again,
a different way of approachingpreaching or even thinking about
it. I had never thought aboutthis before reading Walther,
but, yeah, you think about Yeah,also in the book of Acts, the

(43:44):
new converts who said we'venever even heard there was a
Holy Spirit. No, never neverknew that.
Okay to think about somebody wholistens to my preaching over the
course of an entire year. Whatdoctrines would they say, Oh,
I'd never even heard that therewas an election to grace. Or I'd

(44:05):
never even heard maybe a morecontemporary issue about how
evil abortion really is, eventhough they've listened to me
for 60 sermons. Okay, so tothink more holistically about
preaching, which kind of a metatheme through all of this is
that we don't see our sermonsjust as one off of that it's a

(44:27):
one off proclamation of law andgospel or whatever. But it's an
ongoing conversation that God ishaving to his people through us
as the pastor. And so we'rethinking about this entire menu
of, of teachings. And so thequote, if an attentive here has
perhaps already listened to apreacher for years without being

(44:47):
informed of important thingsthat belong to Christian faith
and life, then this would not bean insignificant charge against
the preacher. Maybe a bit of anawkward translation there but
youwhereas if people listened to
you for years, they should havea pretty good, pretty holistic
picture of Christian faith andChristian life. And then he has

(45:08):
a list of different teachingsthat they should know about.
It's pretty detailed, you'lltalk about things that are a
little anachronistic the bindingnature of engagement, but also
how parents and children shouldrelate to each other. If people
listen to you for a year, theyshould have a pretty good
picture of what a Christianfamily should look like. All
that I found

Ben Phelps (45:32):
interesting and inspiring, too. And hopefully,
it can integrate all of thisinto my preaching. Yeah, so I
guess just kind of pause here.
How, what are the practicalissues here? You know, I can
think of the kind of half thewhole counsel of God, you have
to keep the big picture thestory of salvation, from
creation through crucifixion andrestoration and all that other
stuff. Not to make it trivial.

(45:55):
But yeah, there's a lot inthere. But you also want to be
faithful to the text and notjust tell the same exact story
every time. But you also need tocover all the doctrine.
Is that Is that feasible? Isthat realistic? You know how I
would Walter do that, I supposeif his goal is to actually do
some teaching

Unknown (46:14):
in the sermon, and that's a big deal. That becomes
a little more recognizable.
Okay. I can see why you'rebringing up all this, this
doctrinal stuff, if you're ifyou're teaching, but there any
thoughts on that? Kind of justcame to me now? Who is it's an
immense task who is sufficient?
Or who is sufficient for it?
Yeah, this is this is somethingthat we should put approach our
preaching with fear andtrembling, and recognizing our

(46:36):
inadequacy, because that yeah,there's some practical
considerations. Yep. They oftenwent to two sermons a week back
and well, Thursday, he preachedfor 45 minutes or an hour. So
yeah, they had more time.
Yep, we're really careful to betextual in our sermons not just
to bring in teachings from allover the place that have nothing

(46:58):
to do with what we're what textis actually saying in front of
us.
Yeah, so can we actually doeverything Walther is saying,
No. And we'll see more of thatas we go. He'll talk about every
sermon also has to contain theentire order of salvation. So
even if someone only heard onesermon in their life, they could
be saved. Well, I just got my amI supposed to do that too. But

(47:21):
well, there is a seminaryprofessor, and this is sometimes
how professors talk there'll bemaybe bombastic is not the word,
but they'll just, you know, putit all out there and lay it all
out on the line. And not alwaysspeak with tons of nuance,
because I think at least inpart, we can take advantage of
that nuance. Well, I'm nevergoing to cover all the doctrines

(47:42):
of Scripture anyway. So what'sthe point in carefully thinking
about which doctrines I'mcovering and not covering? I'll
just do none of that and talkabout the same old things week
after week. Yeah, we won't theredoesn't want to give us that
sort of out. I don't think hewants to challenge us. Yeah. But
I suppose the YouTube gave usthe simple answer to that. Well,

(48:02):
if you preach for an hour, everyweek, you can cover you know,
three to four times as much asyou normally would anyway. So
there you go.
Yeah, that's, that's thetakeaway. Hmm. Okay. We should
preach for longer. That's beenone of my takeaways, as I study
this, if this is the mostimportant thing I'm doing, you
know, we can't be legalisticabout it. But sure, yeah. Are we

(48:24):
gonna give it 12 minutes?
Probably not.

Ben Phelps (48:29):
Especially if six of those minutes is the your sports
illustration or whatever itmight be to?
People's Yes. I love sportsillustrations. Well, you know,
normally I, I avoid them likethe plague because they don't
have anything to speak fromexperience. But I got the
Hebrews 12 texts in front of mefor Sunday, and I kind of have

(48:51):
to mention running right.
Thanks. To be textual.
Alright, soapart from my intrusion there,
what else are we going to sayabout this whole counsel of God
thing, you know, so we just Ididn't interrupt because it's
already so much, but it keeps onadding more to the list.
Anything else you want tohighlight from that long term
project? It would be fascinatingto try to do this with a three

(49:14):
year lectionary. There isthere's a list out there for the
one year lectionary that linesup different doctrines with
different Sundays and texts.

Unknown (49:24):
We maybe are helping ourselves because we keep
changing our election area. Sowe just changed it again in the
Wisconsin Synod. But it would bereally interesting to sit down
and be systematic about it. Butthen yeah, careful as we
approach it. We don't want touse the text as a pretext, right
to teach something else. We wantto really be textual. But it

(49:45):
would be interesting to thinkthrough how to do this more.
Yeah. And then this is just partof what we're doing in in a
sermon. But then yeah, Walterdoes keep going. He does what I
just mentioned. Say that yeah,as you're doing this, the gospel
still has to predominate.
sermon should contain the way tosalvation,
that they should carefullyexhort people to lives of good

(50:07):
works. He keeps any more detailson to what we're talking about.
But then, yeah, interestingwhere he goes from that he, he
also makes sure that we know,this sort of our preaching needs
to be contemporary. And it needsto do to correspond with what
people need, which he gives somereally appropriate caveats to
say this isn't just felt leads,giving people what they think

(50:31):
they need, but what theyactually need. So he's confident
to kind of tell us we knowbetter than our people what they
need, they need God's word, allof it, even if they don't think
they do. Sometimes, though, yougive them the basics, more meat
or more milk, other times it ismore meat.
But then we have when in doubt,we go more toward that lower

(50:54):
denominator talks about Lutherhis famous quote, they're
preaching to the milkmaids.
That's true, but then knowingyour people if they're ready for
deeper, more intense teaching,give it to them. And this is,
yeah, as a preacher, this is whypreaching is so hard. I look at
my congregation. And I seepeople who know the Bible on
just an incredibly deep level,they know everything and they

(51:15):
know the doctrines they know,Greek, they know all of this,
okay? Challenge them with God'sword. Also look out at God's
people. And yeah, it's biblicalknowledge has really fallen off
a cliff.
In our, in our culture in oursociety, they don't know who
Abraham there's who Moses,there's what, how to define

(51:36):
things like sin and grace. Sotrying to hit all of this all at
the same time, who is equal tothis task? Nobody, ultimately,
but just because we can't do itperfectly, doesn't give us an
outlet to not be careful andthink these things through. So
we're preaching sermons thatreally apply to the people right

(51:56):
in front of us. But thisapplied, as I was thinking this
through with putting our sermonson the internet, that we're
trying to, we're not justpreaching these sermons to look
good to the people out there inthe world, to our pastor,
friends to our, you know, Ithink a lot of beginning pastors
are kind of in their headspreaching to their homiletics
professor and want to make himhappy. Now we're preaching to

(52:18):
the people right in front of uswho are looking in the eyes,
we're not looking at the camera,looking at God's people and
giving them the comfort of God'sWord, the encouragement God has
for them the expectations tolive according to God's word. So
again, a lot of kinda at leastsurprising to me a teaching of
not just abstract teaching reachthings that really matter to

(52:40):
them, that really apply to theirlives that they really care
about. But then, yeah, not toolong. So you said yeah, don't
preach too long, either. Okay. Ithought you wanted me to do
everything, every sermon? Yeah,well, he's just he's been a he's
been a seminary professor givingus really high a really high bar
here. Not too long, but alsowell structured. And that's,

(53:03):
that's a key here too. We don'twant to just lob a bunch of
teachings out there kind ofsmorgasbord style, but we want
to carefully think through howwe're presenting God's word to
God's people, giving them wellstructured sermons, so they can
remember them more easily sothey can not get frustrated as
they're listening to you. It'skinda the court like, fathers

(53:25):
don't exasperate your children.
preachers don't do that eitherby being sloppy in your
preaching.
But then he ends with withsaying, the kind of the big
picture, aim at their hearts,aim at their consciences. That's
what you're aiming at as apreacher.
So yeah, there's a lot of bigpicture ideas, a lot of
challenges for us as preachers,but then this the simple idea,

(53:47):
we're preaching to give God'sword God's comfort, God's
teaching to the hearts andconsciences of his people. He
also kind of keeps it simpleright there at the end in a way
that I really appreciate it.

Ben Phelps (54:02):
Yeah, so much more we we couldn't say on the on the
content part. But he did a goodjob, I think summarizing for for
us there. It's, it's it's hardto see how this isn't, isn't
practical yet. Again, theappreciation of the historic
value thatand I think that's just a
testament to the nature of thechurch, right, God, God's word,
and God's people aregoing through almost all the

(54:26):
same things throughout the ages.
Right. And we could find, findourselves at home reading this
kind of stuff, and especially aspastors, right, the two of us
talking today, how do I preach asermon, and we have a lot of so
many late listeners to whom thisisn't their daily struggle, but
just to realize,maybe two, I don't say
appreciate your pastor is notthe goal of this, but maybe

(54:48):
that's one facet from it. Youknow, there is a lot of work
behind it. And when you do havea good sermon, or even an
excellent sermon, just realizethat that usually doesn't just
happen on its own right there.
There's some work behind there.
That's why we need pastors. Andwe need more pastors too. If
you're listening to this andkind of thought, Oh, can I do
this? I would say don't let thisoverwhelm you and say it's

(55:08):
impossible.
Walthers standards are gonna sayare not necessarily humanly
possible, nor should they benecessarily this this interview,
you must hold yourself to everyweek, but just see that that
there's a lot going on here. Butit's a lot of good work going
into these servers. Yeah, no,that's, that's great. And

(55:30):
there's,

Unknown (55:31):
yeah, it's a high bar.
But yes, if it's making us feelbad author has a great quote in
there from a lengthen, where hebasically said, If preaching was
something easy to systematize,then I could do it. But it's
not. So yeah. But like that wasvery good at systematically
laying things out for people.
But preaching isn't just thatit's knowing people, it's you

(55:54):
might say, nowadays, we'll talkabout exercising your audience
and exercising the text. Walteris very much talking about all
of that. That's what makespreaching so yeah, at least for
me, endlessly interesting andfascinating. It's why reading
books about preaching is reallyimportant. And so this was, oh,
really helpful to think through.
And then again, kind of with aquote that got got me fired up,

(56:16):
as I read it. Walter talked atone point about how there's,
there's always this problem ofcorrupt of sin that's
corrupting. And the only hopepeople have is the word of God.
And in every era, we haveparticular needs to hear God's
word. And that is why God wantsthere to be preaching. So his
word can be the source, therule, the star for people's

(56:36):
lives of all Ultra doctrine.
This is the medication forsickness as of soul, you can
apply this to their conditionand to all humanity. This is the
light that drives out all thedarkness that tries to penetrate
it. Salt that resists thespreading right of the world,
the dam and wall that setslimits to the penetrating stream
of corruption. Create quote, andyeah, that just fires you up.

(57:01):
What, what an awesome gift. Weare.
The ultimate, yeah, our we havedoesn't come from us. But it
comes from the word of God, thatdoes stem the rot of sin and
heals.
Right, it gives us hope, even inthe face of death.
Yeah.

Ben Phelps (57:19):
An excellent reminder for the importance of
all this again. Yeah. And it'salways a joy to read someone who
can write well, right. And Ithink that's, that's part of
your attraction to this. He'sjust got, you know, whether he's
a little little too feistysometimes maybe to our modern
sensibilities, it still makes agood read and makes you think
and appreciate what he's doinghere. All right, so we got

(57:41):
through a pretty good outline ofthe content, what he's aiming
at, butwere there any parts of this
research or reading of this textthat surprised or excited you or
just something random, thatspurred your interest to
comment? And

Unknown (57:57):
yeah, I can clean I've exhaustively thought this
through. But it's interesting tothink about this book
as a parallel and even in someways as a corrective to the
Walther book that is far morecommon in our circles, that's
law and gospel, the properdistinction between law and
gospel. Last time, we keepreferencing that, but we talked

(58:20):
about how we kind of have thiscaricature view of wall theory
and preaching that it's law thangospel condemnation and
forgiveness. But this was, youknow, a much more nuanced view
of preaching. Not that not thatcaricature by any means. And in
some ways, it doesn't contradictlaw and gospel, but it's just
the tone is different. And ifyou think about when he when

(58:43):
Walter delivered the lecturesthat became long gospel, it was
at the end of his life as he wasdealing with personal tragedy,
his wife died right in themiddle of it. So yeah, he's
going to be talking,I guess, about theology and a
much more existential way. Butthen in this book and pastoral
theology that we're talkingabout today, it's a more
holistic picture of the entirelife of the church. So if

(59:07):
you're, if you're talking tosomebody whose wife is dying, or
if you're preaching a funeralsermon, yep. Very, like
existential law, gospel, death,resurrection, preaching. That's
exactly what you need. But ifyou're thinking about the entire
life of a church, everythingthat people hear what what we
all need, then then it's goingto be of a broader scope. All

(59:27):
right, guys, for the preacher.
He's aiming at something alittle bit bigger than that. So
yeah, I found this interesting.
And in comparison to longgospel, I don't I don't think
they really contradict, but theydo complement each other. Yeah,
that's a good way to put it andwe've said it before, but just
remember long gospel, you didn'tpublish it, right? Those are

(59:47):
students shorthand notes thatyou know, he kind of I wouldn't
say cult like status, but maybeapproached that you know,
getting a Youth League namedafter you and statues and campus
all this stuff.

Ben Phelps (01:00:00):
Have you know Walter this Walter that?
Was there a bit of a bit bunchof putting that up on a pedestal
beyond what he had intended?
Perhaps so why don't you readalso at least what he did in 10?
People to, to read in printedform? And yeah.
Good points there. Yeah.
Anything else you want to talkabout? That sparked some
thoughts from you?

Unknown (01:00:23):
Yeah, just Yeah, as we absolutely talked
about this,how we talked last time about
how we got to where we are inour preaching. But then just, I
don't know, if it's anencouragement, it's not really
my again, my place to telleverybody what they should be
doing. But just to recognize,like, we're preaching so often,
that it can become really easyto not get stuck in rites, but

(01:00:45):
to become really confident inwhat we're doing. And this was
part of this study was achallenge for me to think
through. What am I actuallydoing when I get in the pulpit?
Because both of you and Ibenefit or talk to other pastors
about this, andit just kind of kind of brushed
off and that's fine. People canhave different opinions. But to

(01:01:05):
think through what what are weactually doing in the pulpit?
What is our goal?
This is all really good. Andit's a value of, of historical
theology and a value inPolitical Theology. I have a
friend who just kind of everytime we talk about homiletics,
he just kind of brushes me off.
And it's like, yeah, just not Iwant to hear actual servers. I

(01:01:26):
don't want to talk aboutpreaching sermons. Sure, but
yeah, this stuff really matters.
We should, we should think itthrough really carefully. And
this would be, I think, a greatplace to start. The book itself,
the whole book is, is reallybig, it's pretty expensive. I
think it's 50 bucks. But ifanybody from Cph is listening,

(01:01:47):
they can talk to me, we'd loveto this would be an interesting
book to publish just as a as abooklet Walthers kind of
masterclass on preaching. We canthink it through then. We don't
accept it all. uncritically, ofcourse. But I think most people
in our circles would bechallenged by it.

Ben Phelps (01:02:05):
Yeah, and it's healthy, no matter what you're
talking about to be to bechallenged and to think things
through that's that's wheregrowth takes place. Right is
when we're challenged. And yeah,it's it's kind of hard to,
to argue against the logic ofwhat he's doing or the
historical Lutheranism that ishe's he's imbibing or the

(01:02:26):
biblical aspects of it. Butmight be might be some things.
I'm wondering, do you have anycritiques, if you criticisms of,
you know, he's dead, he can'thear you. And if he can, he's,
he's, he's got better thingsgoing on to worry about what
you're going to say. Soanything that I would say
negative side, but like I said,a critique of Walters pastoral

(01:02:47):
theology, especially this sermonsection.

Unknown (01:02:54):
I really did think the sermon section was well done.
While they're just not meetingmy compliments, by any means.
But yeah, it wasn't a fullhomiletics book. Obviously, it's
just just a chapter in apastoral theology book. But
yeah, some of it's just a littlearchaic. He talks about Yeah,

(01:03:16):
but before you start railingagainst dancing, as I said, make
sure your people are wellcatechize to understand why
dancing is a sin. Yeah, okay.
Yeah, that's that's a littleanachronistic possibly today,
though. Maybe we could thinkthrough some of what happens in
dancy today. Sure. And then,yeah, well, there's context he,
he was consciously trying to doAmerican do pastoral theology in

(01:03:41):
an American context. But thereare a few times I just was
pretty clear, as I read it, hedoesn't really get
the free religious marketplacethat we have in America, and
just how different that was froma state church where people like
you were the only show in town,very much not the case. And

(01:04:02):
we've all had that in ourchurches, where you patiently
lovingly practice churchdiscipline and call somebody out
on a sin and they just hop overto another church and the
church, except Sam with prettymuch open arms. Yeah, so that
that kind of idea, it doesaffect our tone, how we talk to
people or recognizing themarketplace that we're in. And

(01:04:25):
then we're just assuming thattoday that the
what the downside of the realdanger today is secularism, it's
that sort of approach that, youknow, I'm my own God. Walter
doesn't have a whole lot to sayabout that, at least in this
section. And that's where modernpreaching probably needs more of
an apologetic slant to it aswell. So maybe not criticisms,

(01:04:48):
but ways that we would probablyfill this fill in that his His
teaching and His his approachtoday. Yeah, I think you brought
up earlier. You know, is he

Ben Phelps (01:05:00):
Trying to be legalistic? Probably not. But I
think you could read it in acertain way. Well, here are like
the 50 rules you have to followthrough a real sermon. If you
start doing that, then yeah,that would be I don't know how
you would not define that aslegalism. But you know, take
take his word should do this asa directive that's so much.

(01:05:20):
You're condemned for it,although he does use that
condemning language quite often.
You know, in some of thoseinstances, he says, if you're
not doing this, you probablyshouldn't feel feel guilty. So

Unknown (01:05:30):
talking about comfort and hope as a couple of times
reading it, like I could use alittle comfort and help. As I'm
just reading this this book, notyour survey, not in the sermon.
Yeah. Yeah. But I'm very muchrelated to that.
Something in our, in our culturethat does very much parallel,
this is just how much goodteaching is needed. We live in a

(01:05:52):
world like we said, we'rebiblical knowledge has dropped
off a cliff where people don'tjust assume that God's law is
good. That's actually probablythe number one problem people
have with Christianity. It's notlike even like the evidence for
the truth. But even if it istrue, is that good. All of that.
Yeah, couldn't can easily getlost if we're taking a narrower

(01:06:16):
approach to preaching that it'sexposing sin and solving that
wound with the gospel. This sortof, yeah, a steady diet of that.
It's, I don't want to say likenot good enough. But in my
opinion, probably not goodenough. We need more detailed
exposition, we need more carefulinstruction of God's people. And

(01:06:38):
then, especially, of course,when when the texts take us that
way, when the text is leading ustoward
explicit needs some of thosetruths of the goodness of God's
law, or how God wants us tolive, or whatever the case may
be.

Ben Phelps (01:06:55):
Now, that's doubt to me as I read, so maybe just kind
of tie this into what we talkedabout last time, as I read
Walters sermons, he had a sermonin there from Luke chapter two,
talking about the Holy Family.
And in my mind, I'm thinking,okay, preaching on the Holy
Family, Jesus going to thetemple in Jerusalem, when he's
12 years old, you know, a goodLutheran preacher should talk

(01:07:17):
about the Lamb of God going tothe temple, and he's very like
on this course, to be ourSavior. But while there started
off his sermon by saying, I'mgoing to use the Holy Family,
family, as an example for us, soparents know how to be good
parents, and so children knowhow to obey their parents. And
the whole sermon was on that.

(01:07:38):
And you can now I can now seewhat he was doing. He was
thinking through how are mypeople are going to know how to
live Christian lives inside oftheir family. This is my chance
to talk about it this year. SoI'm going to lay out a whole
bunch of details about how thatworks. Yeah, and I think, you
know, the historians task now isto see his context and his tone.

(01:07:59):
is he writing that saying, Hey,you guys are doing this? Right.
Like, this is a whole new way ofis he's not your I think you
believe, I believe you're sayingis this is kind of just a
assumed thing. I can do this,this is a total, you know, he's
is that getting defensive aboutit, or trying to push the
envelope so to speak? That'sjust the way he's going to kind
of preach one of these sermons.
And as your last episode that wehad common said would be

(01:08:22):
shocking to many, many Lutheranpreachers. So So what happened
here, right, is that somethingchanged as there was last time
and now you got into thewhat was what was the
assumption? What was the plan?
Where was he coming from it andso many other Lutherans too,
thatthat follow in his footsteps are
preceded him?

Unknown (01:08:45):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, this is more. Yeah, he'snot he doesn't feel the need to
justify that his sermons thatsermons are based on a whole
bunch of teaching. And likeguides, people need to be
exhorted to good works. Like wemight possibly have to justify
that sort of approach today, aswe're talking with other
Lutherans.

Ben Phelps (01:09:06):
Yeah, just.

Unknown (01:09:09):
Yeah. And then and then and then to see, I guess, to
take one step further, that it'sobvious to him not just in a
vacuum, but obvious to him as aninheritor of the Lutheran
homiletical tradition. He'staking. He's building his
approach on what he has receivedfrom in front of him with this
his point 300 years of history.
So it's something again, wedon't have to necessarily agree

(01:09:30):
with if somebody thinks all thisthrough and says, No, I don't I
still don't buy it. That's fine.
You don't have to do somethingjust because Walter did it. Of
course. But yeah, we we dismissour fathers at our peril. If we
just don't, that's our knee jerkreaction. Yeah, absolutely. All

(01:09:53):
right. Well, I seen your noteshere. I don't I don't know what
this means recommended. wfs Whatis it

Ben Phelps (01:10:00):
But yeah, I guess it's kind of different. Now
there's a podcast called wordword. Oh, yeah. So they work
through this entire book overthe course of eight hour long
episodes. If you've listened tothat, and after listening to
this, you'll probably see someparallels. That was one of my
first roads into this, thinkinga lot of these things through.

(01:10:22):
Yeah, word fitly spoken andmaybe cut you off there. But
yeah, I've listened to thembefore even started the podcast.
And well, or maybe around thesame time, they're one of the
guys right, feel guilty becauseI call this podcast, the
Lutheran History podcast, whenit shouldn't be just be a
Lutheran History podcast thatthose guys have have covered a
lot in the past. If you go on toour website for the Lutheran

(01:10:45):
History podcast, on buds onBuzzsprout, they're in the
recommended section, if you needa shortcut, as you're listening
to this, to find them, ofcourse, most of you know how to
Google and find your ownpodcasts. You're on your own.
But I got that linked for you onour website as well. All right,
Scott, as we wrap up today, whatare some areas of possible

(01:11:06):
continuing research or anyshoutouts you want to make to
the broader audience today? No,you have a couple things to say
on that. Yeah, I'm reallyappreciated talking with you
about this band we've been, it'skinda a forbidden for me,
because we both are kind of onseparate tracks, but then
realized a lot of the sametruths. And then, when we got
together, we had the sense of,Am I the only one who's

(01:11:30):
recognizing that there's kind ofa lack of congruence between
historical Lutheran preachingand our approach today, and we
both have come to a lot of thesame conclusion. So I appreciate
your work there. And obviously,it's a lot more careful, more
careful work that work of a anactual historian, and not just
the fan of history. But as as afan of history and more of a fan

(01:11:52):
of preaching, I've been puttingtogether kind of a working
bibliography of different thingsunderneath that, that kind of
thesis that I've been workingwith that are preaching has
changed. And so I've got apretty detailed bibliography. If
anybody is just kind of dippingtheir toes into this want to do
some more reading, they cancontact me send me an email, I'd

(01:12:13):
be happy to share that withthem. And also a call for, for
people if they know of anyresources of that can be just
sermons in general, butespecially homiletics, books or
essays, papers, whatever,whatever it might be. Please
send that my way. I'd love tokeep reading this, again, just
my own personal growth andinterest.

(01:12:35):
All right, that's a that's agreat shout out, we'll put your
contact info that you want to becontacted through in the episode
description. So as you'relistening to that, if you want
to get in touch with PastorScott hemorrhage here, and while
you're doing it, you canconvince him that he's not just
a fan of of history, he isturning into a historian. He's
just in denial of that. I don'tknow, man, if you're already
building a bibliography, or it'sit's some pretty,

(01:12:59):
some pretty dedicated workthere. But
yeah, well, thank you forjoining us today. It's been a
good discussion, and hopefully,many people will find this
edifying, if not at leastinteresting. Thank you, Ben.
All right, a final shout out toeveryone here. If you'd like to
support the show, as Scottmentioned, without me asking him
to we do have a patreon page. Ifyou want to support the show.

(01:13:20):
That way, there's some contentincluding behind the scenes
stuff.
And some other things there. Youcould also support me directly
from the website, or just followus on Facebook. I personally
don't really use Facebook thatmuch. But that is a way to have
a social media platform. Inother news for us, as well, as
I've mentioned in otherepisodes, but we did connect the

(01:13:41):
podcast to YouTube now. So ifyou are one of those people who
prefer to just sit with an openYouTube tab in the background,
rather than your podcast, youcan you can listen to this with
with that going on as well. Withthat, thank you for listening to
Lutheran History podcast.
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