November 13, 2025 • 29 mins
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Ever feel like you’re pouring energy into a black hole—rewriting emails, softening your tone, apologizing for their reactions—yet nothing improves? We dig into why empathic, high-achieving leaders lose footing around manipulative or narcissistic personalities and pinpoint the core mistake: trying to earn fairness, respect, and accountability from someone who thrives on confusion and control. Instead of clarity, over-explaining becomes emotional labor that signals power to the other side while draining yours.
We unpack the two-worlds mismatch: you explain to connect; they invite explanations to maintain control. From shifting standards to emotional baiting, we show you how to spot the pattern quickly and stop taking responsibility before it’s even assigned. You’ll learn a practical approach to get grounded—seeing the dynamic clearly, listening to your body’s no, and responding with concise boundaries and calm follow-through. We share the SAFE framework to diagnose chaos, anchor in your body, frame clear limits, and execute decisions without drama.
A client story brings this to life. Her boss kept moving the goalposts: star one week, problem the next. She broke the loop by refusing to chase understanding, documenting criteria, and aligning effort with clear agreements. The spiral lost momentum, and her confidence returned. The takeaway is simple and liberating: you don’t need to be less sensitive; you need to place your empathy wisely. Lead with neutrality, boundaries, and self-trust. Power returns when you stop auditioning for approval and let your limits define the game.
If this resonates, share it with a colleague who over-gives, subscribe for more tools on emotionally intelligent leadership, and leave a quick review—what boundary will you try this week?
Thanks for Listening! We appreciate you. Sending you love and gratitude.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
Welcome to the show leader.
We got lots of feedback that youreally enjoyed the last episode
on empathic and narcissisticleadership.
So we're gonna carry on.
We're gonna do another episodeon the most dangerous leadership
mistake empaths can make withnarcissistic leaders.
(00:41):
Now, again, we're not diagnosinganyone.
I know that word is thrownaround so much these days.
So we can say a toxic boss or aboss with maladaptive behaviors,
with manipulative behaviors,with emotional immaturity, can't
(01:03):
take accountability, likes tocause commotion and turmoil,
whatever it is.
If you are interacting with thistype of personality in your
business, in your career, inyour place of work, it can
really throw you for a loop.
(01:26):
And it can cause a lot ofproblems in your own growth and
not only in your workenvironment, but it can seep
into your personal life.
I've worked with multipleclients who have come to me
after working with someone whowas supposed to be a leader for
(01:47):
them, and they've gone throughthe emotional ringer, and their
confidence has taken a huge hit.
And these are clients who haveachieved enormous things in
their career.
Things that a lot of peoplewould look at and say, wow,
(02:07):
there's no way that this personis lacking any confidence.
But working with these types oftoxic personalities when you are
highly sensitive or you're anempath, again, we don't want to
judge anything, right?
We're not going to judge, but alot of these patterns are not
(02:32):
healthy.
And we can't change somethingunless we see it for what it is.
So today we're going to explorea question that hits right at
the heart of why so manyempathic, high-achieving leaders
lose their footing aroundnarcissistic personalities.
(02:58):
What is the most dangerousmistake empaths can make around
these narcissisticpersonalities, these leaders
that are manipulating as opposedto actually leading?
And why does it cost them?
It feels like it costs them somuch power.
(03:20):
So if you've ever walked awayand you just feel like, what the
heck happened there?
What was going on in thatconversation?
Why do I feel off?
Why do I feel confused?
Maybe they were upset, and youfeel responsible for their
(03:45):
reactions, even though you'relike, what even happened?
I don't I don't remember doinganything.
I don't think I did anything.
Or you feel like you have todefend yourself, or you have to
explain one more time, andyou're just at that place where
you're like, What?
I don't understand what ishappening here.
(04:08):
I feel like I've lost myfooting.
So one mistake that we can makewith these personalities is
you're trying to earn fairnessfrom someone who's uh cannot
(04:29):
give it to you.
They are not going to give youwhat you one deserve and what
you want.
So one of the most dangerousleadership mistakes you can make
is you're trying to earn theunderstanding, the mutual
respect.
And you're trying to earn itthrough over-explaining,
(04:52):
emotional labor, and it's notgoing to work.
You're not going to earnanything.
This is where we start overgiving.
And sometimes, right?
A lot of us have to learn thislesson the hard way.
We can start overgiving tosomeone who's just an empty pit,
(05:19):
and someone with thesepersonality traits, they're
going to just keep taking, andthere's no stopping, right?
You're just like pouring intothe void, pouring into the void.
You try to earn accountability.
You're not going to earn theiraccountability.
They're not going to beaccountable.
You're trying to earn emotionalstability.
(05:42):
You are not going to earn that.
You are not going to get thatfrom a personality trait like
this.
And sometimes you're going totry, you're going to try to
explain yourself, over-clarifyyour intentions.
You're going to try softeningyour tone, maybe writing these
(06:05):
huge long emails or textmessage, explaining yourself,
giving all these reasons, takingresponsibility thing for things
that are not your responsibilityin the first place.
They're not even yours.
You try to make the environmenteasier for them.
(06:29):
You cannot earn what someonedoesn't have the capacity to
give.
Certainly not through kindness.
None of that is gonna work on anarcissistic pattern.
(06:53):
It's just not going to work.
It's gonna it's gonna exhaustyou, it's gonna confuse you.
But it's not going to give youwhat you're trying to get if
you're trying to get that.
So why do the empaths fall intothis?
Even when the empath isextremely powerful, extremely
(07:21):
confident, you we can still fallinto this.
You may be believing thatclarity comes through a mutual
understanding, but thenarcissistic personality thrives
in confusion.
(07:41):
So you might be thinking, if Iexplain myself better, we'll
connect.
We're gonna get that connection.
And the narcissistic personalitycan be th can be thinking, if
they keep explaining, I stay incontrol.
(08:05):
So we're talking about twocompletely different worlds
here.
So you're over-explainingbecause you want to connect, you
want, you want to be understood,you want to be seen as the
person you are.
And the narcissistic personalityis saying, Yep, keep going, keep
explaining, keep giving me whatyou got, because I can see by
(08:30):
you doing that, I'm in control,I'm in power, and that's giving
me exactly what I want.
It's two completely differentworlds.
So another issue is you're areyou've already taken
responsibility before assigningresponsibility.
(08:55):
And I'm saying you, and I'mincluding myself in this because
I've definitely been in thesepatterns, so there's no judgment
on my end towards you.
If you're like, oh, this soundslike me.
Yeah, we all gotta learn thislesson.
So you can scan for ways youhave contributed, and they're
(09:17):
scanning for ways where you cancarry the blame.
So if you are accountable andthey're looking for how they can
point the blame.
Again, two different worlds.
Empaths are often conditioned tobe emotionally self-sufficient.
(09:43):
We're conditioned to beemotionally self-sufficient,
especially a lot of theclientele that I work with, a
lot of the leaders that I workwith, a lot of them have the
same story of I grew up, how tofigure it out on my own, how to
learn on my own, right?
It's a survival strategy.
(10:06):
You've also learned tounderstand people because it
makes you feel safe.
So this can look like you tryingto understand the leader because
you think you'll be respected.
(10:28):
If I can understand, let's say,your romantic partner, I can get
things to calm down.
If I can understand theirreaction, I'm going to fix this
dynamic.
But that just keeps you in aloop with a narcissistic
(10:52):
personality.
Because the narcissisticpersonality does not want to be
understood.
They want to be validated, theywant to be emotionally fed.
A lot of times they just want tobe obeyed.
They don't want to beunderstood, and they're going to
(11:16):
have a aura of confusion aroundthem.
So what does this actually looklike?
So we can spot the pattern, sowe can see the pattern.
If you remember, if you listento the previous episode, we
(11:37):
talked about the safe method.
And the first part of the safemethod is seeing the pattern.
So I want you to look for theseaspects.
Are you preparing for everyconversation?
Are you writing emails three,four, five, six times, rewriting
(12:00):
them, spending hours on oneemail?
Apologizing for things youdidn't even do.
Taking on their emotionalreactions as your
responsibility.
Trying to explain yourintentions so it's understood.
Trying to make them feelcomfortable.
(12:24):
Trying to fix themisunderstanding.
Trying to soothe their ego.
Remember that a narcissisticpersonality wants to exploit.
And when you are an empathicleader, you're highly sensitive,
you're giving, you're anovergiver, you're gonna be
(12:46):
trying all these things, you'regonna be giving, you're gonna be
pouring.
And the narcissistic personalityis designed to exploit that.
So you end up exhausted,doubting yourself,
overfunctioning, blamingyourself for their behavior,
feeling confused, and likeyou've been put in a ringer.
Right?
The dynamic is engineered tomake you feel at fault.
(13:10):
So you keep giving.
Hands up, if you've maybe youhaven't had a relationship at
work like this.
Maybe this has been a personalrelationship.
I think most of the people thatI've worked with, they've also
had a personal relationship witha narcissistic personality.
(13:31):
It's almost like the paying ourdues to learn from these
relationships to reallyunderstand what boundaries are,
what our self-worth is,self-trust, self-respect.
So you can't earn fairness fromchaos.
(13:56):
And that is what thesepersonalities are bringing,
right?
The personality is bringingchaos.
So you gotta get out of, I'mgonna fix this, I'm going to do
something to help this and makeit better, make it more fair,
because you're just gonna keepgiving over giving.
(14:19):
Right?
So narcissistic dynamics aregonna break the rules of healthy
communication, which means youhave to break your old rules,
your old patterns, I should say,of emotional labor.
So stop trying to make themunderstand, make them calm, make
(14:42):
them reasonable, make therelationship work, make the
conversation smoother, stoptrying.
And instead you start leadingwith clarity, boundaries,
neutrality, that's really big.
Neutrality is is a big part ofthe lesson here.
(15:06):
Self-trust and emotionalsovereignty.
And your power is gonna start toreturn.
So when you get into thesedynamics, what can happen is you
start to feel like you're beingmisunderstood.
(15:30):
Maybe like you're failing,you're too much.
Maybe that you start feelingyou're the problem.
You are you you are not theproblem.
You are simply using emotionalintelligence in a place where
emotional intelligence is notgoing to be reciprocated.
(15:53):
Your empathy isn't the issue,it's the placement of where your
empathy is.
And this is a tough one.
This is a real tough one,especially if you have a soul
growth lesson aroundcontribution, because you're
(16:14):
gonna want to always have thatempathy, right?
Front and center.
But in these specific dynamics,it is it completely turns it on
its head.
So once you stop trying to earnfairness from someone who uses
(16:36):
confusion as a weapon, you'regonna stop feeling like you're
losing yourself in the dynamic.
And you're gonna feel clear,grounded.
You're gonna get to a placewhere you feel like you are
leading from that power, fromyour true, innate, divine, clear
(17:03):
power, and not from theemotional wounding.
And there's a lot of reasons whywe can get into these dynamics.
There's a lot of soul growth.
There's there again, we're notjudging.
These are powerful dynamics,these are powerful relationships
(17:23):
that hopefully we don't have tobe in for a huge amount of time,
even though sometimes they arelifelong dynamics, especially if
someone's in your family and itjust is that challenging
dynamic.
Hopefully, in a workenvironment, this doesn't have
to be an extended dynamic thatyou are finding yourself in
(17:48):
because it can get quite toxicand unhealthy, but they are
powerful learning experiences.
So I had a client who hersuperior would always move the
goalpost.
(18:10):
Right?
So one week she was a star, thenshe was a problem.
Every time something fell off,she would want to fix it, she
would want to push harder, shewould want to prove herself.
I often talk about the highachiever wound, right?
(18:32):
Of proving, of tying yourself-worth with achievement.
So she would over-explain, shewould over-deliver, she would
over-apologize.
She was trying to be understood.
And again, you can't earn yourway into being understood.
(18:57):
You can't earn your way into afair dynamic in a system that is
built on chaos.
So part of the work with thisclient was really getting clear
on the pattern, seeing thingsfor what they are, right?
(19:19):
You know, what can be helpful isif you separate yourself from
it.
And this is really importantwork that it is helpful to have
someone, whether it's a coach,whether it's a therapist,
whether it's a mentor, someonethat you trust, someone that can
work with you through this,because it can be very hard to
(19:41):
make sense of things, especiallywhen you're in it, right?
But taking an eagle-eye view, soseparating yourself, really
bringing yourself up and seeingit from an eagle eye view, as if
you're just observing what ishappening, right?
That's when your clarity canreturn.
(20:04):
You want to all the time betrusting your body.
What is your body saying?
I don't care if your brain issaying, oh, this is seems okay.
This seems fine, and your body'sscreaming no, then you trust
your body.
Okay, your body is yourimmediate connection to truth.
Your brain is gonna tell you alot of stories.
(20:29):
So when we started going throughthe safe method, she started to
feel clear again, right?
She started working on thepatterns.
A lot of us have these patternsthat are sometimes decades old
of overexplaining, of notfeeling comfortable setting
boundaries.
She started setting boundaries,she removed herself from the
(20:54):
emotional hooks, right?
That emotional baiting.
She unhooked, it was a process,it didn't happen overnight.
But she was able to come back toherself.
She was able to calm, ground, bedecisive again, know her worth.
(21:21):
And eventually that dynamic, thespiral, it disintegrated.
Because again, a you're you'rejust a part of that narcissistic
game.
It's not a personal attack.
It is literally just a game.
(21:44):
And when you she removedherself, it's the game stopped.
So the shift is you seeing thatyou're not losing your power.
(22:05):
We never actually lose ourpower, but it can feel like
that.
But you're not losing it becauseyou're weak or fragile or
anything that constitutes anegative connotation, right?
We're losing our power, or itfeels like we're losing our
(22:26):
power because we are overgivingin the wrong places.
We are trying to fix somethingthat's never going to be fixed.
We're trying to make sense ofsomething that's never going to
make sense.
And again, right, you don't needto become less sensitive.
You don't need to shut down.
You certainly don't need toharden yourself.
(22:50):
But you need to stop trying toearn what someone does not have
the capacity to ever give you.
And it's about coming back toyourself, coming back to your
body, coming back to yoursafety, which is a divine right.
We all have a divine right tofeel safe in our body, in where
(23:11):
we are working, and who we are.
You are safe, you are strong,you are not alone in this.
There are so many people thathave gone, are going through,
will go through a dynamic ofthis sort.
(23:32):
So if you are like, ugh, feltlike I was all alone, like
nobody would understand.
There is a massive community ofpeople who get it.
If this landed with you, if itresonated with you, if you're
like, yes, this feels likesomething I have experienced.
(23:52):
I'm still trying to move throughit, understand it.
If you're realizing that, youknow, you're overgiving to
people that don't deserve yourovergiving, that it's like an
empty pit.
Again, we don't want to judge.
We're not trying to judge.
It's not about judgment, butit's just about recognizing and
(24:13):
seeing it for what it is.
Sometimes it's hard for theempath or the high-integrity,
heart-centered leader to reallysee these other dynamics.
I know for me it was challengingto really understand these
dynamics.
(24:33):
In my earlier years in juniorhigh, I remember some girls who
would call me to go out and Iwould go and meet them, and they
wouldn't show up.
And this happened a couple oftimes.
And I remember finally them,them laughing and saying, Why do
(24:54):
you keep going when we don'tcome?
And in my mind, I was thinking,why wouldn't I come?
If we made plans, of course I'mgoing to show up.
I follow through with what I sayI'm going to do.
And for me, it was a wake-upcall to say, oh, not everybody
(25:16):
is like that.
And for a bit, I tried tounderstand why they would even
think that was fun or enjoyableto tell someone to go meet them
and not show up.
I really couldn't understand.
Still to this day, I'm like,what enjoyment do you get out of
that other than a power andcontrol?
(25:39):
But I had to just leave, leaveit, stop trying to understand it
and just have the awareness thatthere are people out there that
are not going to operate inintegrity.
There are people out there thathave an emotional immaturity.
(26:00):
And there are people out therethat are just feeding off
manipulation, control, power.
They want to take, they don'twant to give.
And that is a part of the humanexperience.
And having boundaries, honoringyourself, making sure your
(26:23):
self-esteem, your self-worth areon point.
And if they're not, that's okay.
But getting the help you need toget them to a place where you
don't find yourself in thesedynamics as often.
You still might, right?
(26:43):
And there's nothing wrong withthat.
But what I found is once someonestarts going through the system,
they really start understandingit, they start putting in place
the boundaries, they start tofeel safe within themselves,
they start trusting themselvesthat when these dynamics show
their face or they come in, thatleader can tell a lot faster.
(27:08):
And they don't get entangledwith it anymore.
It's more of a quick awarenessof, oh, okay, I see this
dynamic.
I see what's happening here.
I'm going to separate myself orI know exactly how to handle
this.
I know how to deal with thisnow.
I'm not going to fall intooverexplaining, trying to
(27:30):
control it, trying to make itbetter.
I see it for what it is, and I'mgoing to use my tools.
If this is a topic that you wantmore on, please drop me a text
message.
You can head on over to the shownotes and you can send me a text
message, or you can always sendme an email.
Just make sure you put podcastquestion in the subject line
(27:54):
because we get a ton of emailsall the time, and we want these
ones to stand out.
And you can send it toinfotlisajefs.com.
If you would like to speak withme about private coaching for
2026, I'm going to have limitedspots for private coaching in
2026, but I will have a fewopenings for very deep long-term
(28:20):
coaching and then some VIP daysand some intensives and some
shorter term coaching.
So you can always book a testdrive consult at Lisa Jeffs.com.
We'll have a conversation andsee if it's a fit.
Leader, I love you.
I appreciate you.
Take care of yourself.
Remember, you are worth it.
You are deserving.
(28:41):
And as always, let's stayconnected.
SPEAKER_00 (28:53):
Big dreams, believing it.
Wisdom, we speaking and makingeverything that you're looking
for.
Brought to you by Lisa Jessica,the magnetic leader.
Welcome to the show leader.
We got lots of feedback that youreally enjoyed the last episode
on empathic and narcissisticleadership.
So we're gonna carry on.
We're gonna do another episodeon the most dangerous leadership
mistake empaths can make withnarcissistic leaders.
(00:41):
Now, again, we're not diagnosinganyone.
I know that word is thrownaround so much these days.
So we can say a toxic boss or aboss with maladaptive behaviors,
with manipulative behaviors,with emotional immaturity, can't
(01:03):
take accountability, likes tocause commotion and turmoil,
whatever it is.
If you are interacting with thistype of personality in your
business, in your career, inyour place of work, it can
really throw you for a loop.
(01:26):
And it can cause a lot ofproblems in your own growth and
not only in your workenvironment, but it can seep
into your personal life.
I've worked with multipleclients who have come to me
after working with someone whowas supposed to be a leader for
(01:47):
them, and they've gone throughthe emotional ringer, and their
confidence has taken a huge hit.
And these are clients who haveachieved enormous things in
their career.
Things that a lot of peoplewould look at and say, wow,
(02:07):
there's no way that this personis lacking any confidence.
But working with these types oftoxic personalities when you are
highly sensitive or you're anempath, again, we don't want to
judge anything, right?
We're not going to judge, but alot of these patterns are not
(02:32):
healthy.
And we can't change somethingunless we see it for what it is.
So today we're going to explorea question that hits right at
the heart of why so manyempathic, high-achieving leaders
lose their footing aroundnarcissistic personalities.
(02:58):
What is the most dangerousmistake empaths can make around
these narcissisticpersonalities, these leaders
that are manipulating as opposedto actually leading?
And why does it cost them?
It feels like it costs them somuch power.
(03:20):
So if you've ever walked awayand you just feel like, what the
heck happened there?
What was going on in thatconversation?
Why do I feel off?
Why do I feel confused?
Maybe they were upset, and youfeel responsible for their
(03:45):
reactions, even though you'relike, what even happened?
I don't I don't remember doinganything.
I don't think I did anything.
Or you feel like you have todefend yourself, or you have to
explain one more time, andyou're just at that place where
you're like, What?
I don't understand what ishappening here.
(04:08):
I feel like I've lost myfooting.
So one mistake that we can makewith these personalities is
you're trying to earn fairnessfrom someone who's uh cannot
(04:29):
give it to you.
They are not going to give youwhat you one deserve and what
you want.
So one of the most dangerousleadership mistakes you can make
is you're trying to earn theunderstanding, the mutual
respect.
And you're trying to earn itthrough over-explaining,
(04:52):
emotional labor, and it's notgoing to work.
You're not going to earnanything.
This is where we start overgiving.
And sometimes, right?
A lot of us have to learn thislesson the hard way.
We can start overgiving tosomeone who's just an empty pit,
(05:19):
and someone with thesepersonality traits, they're
going to just keep taking, andthere's no stopping, right?
You're just like pouring intothe void, pouring into the void.
You try to earn accountability.
You're not going to earn theiraccountability.
They're not going to beaccountable.
You're trying to earn emotionalstability.
(05:42):
You are not going to earn that.
You are not going to get thatfrom a personality trait like
this.
And sometimes you're going totry, you're going to try to
explain yourself, over-clarifyyour intentions.
You're going to try softeningyour tone, maybe writing these
(06:05):
huge long emails or textmessage, explaining yourself,
giving all these reasons, takingresponsibility thing for things
that are not your responsibilityin the first place.
They're not even yours.
You try to make the environmenteasier for them.
(06:29):
You cannot earn what someonedoesn't have the capacity to
give.
Certainly not through kindness.
None of that is gonna work on anarcissistic pattern.
(06:53):
It's just not going to work.
It's gonna it's gonna exhaustyou, it's gonna confuse you.
But it's not going to give youwhat you're trying to get if
you're trying to get that.
So why do the empaths fall intothis?
Even when the empath isextremely powerful, extremely
(07:21):
confident, you we can still fallinto this.
You may be believing thatclarity comes through a mutual
understanding, but thenarcissistic personality thrives
in confusion.
(07:41):
So you might be thinking, if Iexplain myself better, we'll
connect.
We're gonna get that connection.
And the narcissistic personalitycan be th can be thinking, if
they keep explaining, I stay incontrol.
(08:05):
So we're talking about twocompletely different worlds
here.
So you're over-explainingbecause you want to connect, you
want, you want to be understood,you want to be seen as the
person you are.
And the narcissistic personalityis saying, Yep, keep going, keep
explaining, keep giving me whatyou got, because I can see by
(08:30):
you doing that, I'm in control,I'm in power, and that's giving
me exactly what I want.
It's two completely differentworlds.
So another issue is you're areyou've already taken
responsibility before assigningresponsibility.
(08:55):
And I'm saying you, and I'mincluding myself in this because
I've definitely been in thesepatterns, so there's no judgment
on my end towards you.
If you're like, oh, this soundslike me.
Yeah, we all gotta learn thislesson.
So you can scan for ways youhave contributed, and they're
(09:17):
scanning for ways where you cancarry the blame.
So if you are accountable andthey're looking for how they can
point the blame.
Again, two different worlds.
Empaths are often conditioned tobe emotionally self-sufficient.
(09:43):
We're conditioned to beemotionally self-sufficient,
especially a lot of theclientele that I work with, a
lot of the leaders that I workwith, a lot of them have the
same story of I grew up, how tofigure it out on my own, how to
learn on my own, right?
It's a survival strategy.
(10:06):
You've also learned tounderstand people because it
makes you feel safe.
So this can look like you tryingto understand the leader because
you think you'll be respected.
(10:28):
If I can understand, let's say,your romantic partner, I can get
things to calm down.
If I can understand theirreaction, I'm going to fix this
dynamic.
But that just keeps you in aloop with a narcissistic
(10:52):
personality.
Because the narcissisticpersonality does not want to be
understood.
They want to be validated, theywant to be emotionally fed.
A lot of times they just want tobe obeyed.
They don't want to beunderstood, and they're going to
(11:16):
have a aura of confusion aroundthem.
So what does this actually looklike?
So we can spot the pattern, sowe can see the pattern.
If you remember, if you listento the previous episode, we
(11:37):
talked about the safe method.
And the first part of the safemethod is seeing the pattern.
So I want you to look for theseaspects.
Are you preparing for everyconversation?
Are you writing emails three,four, five, six times, rewriting
(12:00):
them, spending hours on oneemail?
Apologizing for things youdidn't even do.
Taking on their emotionalreactions as your
responsibility.
Trying to explain yourintentions so it's understood.
Trying to make them feelcomfortable.
(12:24):
Trying to fix themisunderstanding.
Trying to soothe their ego.
Remember that a narcissisticpersonality wants to exploit.
And when you are an empathicleader, you're highly sensitive,
you're giving, you're anovergiver, you're gonna be
(12:46):
trying all these things, you'regonna be giving, you're gonna be
pouring.
And the narcissistic personalityis designed to exploit that.
So you end up exhausted,doubting yourself,
overfunctioning, blamingyourself for their behavior,
feeling confused, and likeyou've been put in a ringer.
Right?
The dynamic is engineered tomake you feel at fault.
(13:10):
So you keep giving.
Hands up, if you've maybe youhaven't had a relationship at
work like this.
Maybe this has been a personalrelationship.
I think most of the people thatI've worked with, they've also
had a personal relationship witha narcissistic personality.
(13:31):
It's almost like the paying ourdues to learn from these
relationships to reallyunderstand what boundaries are,
what our self-worth is,self-trust, self-respect.
So you can't earn fairness fromchaos.
(13:56):
And that is what thesepersonalities are bringing,
right?
The personality is bringingchaos.
So you gotta get out of, I'mgonna fix this, I'm going to do
something to help this and makeit better, make it more fair,
because you're just gonna keepgiving over giving.
(14:19):
Right?
So narcissistic dynamics aregonna break the rules of healthy
communication, which means youhave to break your old rules,
your old patterns, I should say,of emotional labor.
So stop trying to make themunderstand, make them calm, make
(14:42):
them reasonable, make therelationship work, make the
conversation smoother, stoptrying.
And instead you start leadingwith clarity, boundaries,
neutrality, that's really big.
Neutrality is is a big part ofthe lesson here.
(15:06):
Self-trust and emotionalsovereignty.
And your power is gonna start toreturn.
So when you get into thesedynamics, what can happen is you
start to feel like you're beingmisunderstood.
(15:30):
Maybe like you're failing,you're too much.
Maybe that you start feelingyou're the problem.
You are you you are not theproblem.
You are simply using emotionalintelligence in a place where
emotional intelligence is notgoing to be reciprocated.
(15:53):
Your empathy isn't the issue,it's the placement of where your
empathy is.
And this is a tough one.
This is a real tough one,especially if you have a soul
growth lesson aroundcontribution, because you're
(16:14):
gonna want to always have thatempathy, right?
Front and center.
But in these specific dynamics,it is it completely turns it on
its head.
So once you stop trying to earnfairness from someone who uses
(16:36):
confusion as a weapon, you'regonna stop feeling like you're
losing yourself in the dynamic.
And you're gonna feel clear,grounded.
You're gonna get to a placewhere you feel like you are
leading from that power, fromyour true, innate, divine, clear
(17:03):
power, and not from theemotional wounding.
And there's a lot of reasons whywe can get into these dynamics.
There's a lot of soul growth.
There's there again, we're notjudging.
These are powerful dynamics,these are powerful relationships
(17:23):
that hopefully we don't have tobe in for a huge amount of time,
even though sometimes they arelifelong dynamics, especially if
someone's in your family and itjust is that challenging
dynamic.
Hopefully, in a workenvironment, this doesn't have
to be an extended dynamic thatyou are finding yourself in
(17:48):
because it can get quite toxicand unhealthy, but they are
powerful learning experiences.
So I had a client who hersuperior would always move the
goalpost.
(18:10):
Right?
So one week she was a star, thenshe was a problem.
Every time something fell off,she would want to fix it, she
would want to push harder, shewould want to prove herself.
I often talk about the highachiever wound, right?
(18:32):
Of proving, of tying yourself-worth with achievement.
So she would over-explain, shewould over-deliver, she would
over-apologize.
She was trying to be understood.
And again, you can't earn yourway into being understood.
(18:57):
You can't earn your way into afair dynamic in a system that is
built on chaos.
So part of the work with thisclient was really getting clear
on the pattern, seeing thingsfor what they are, right?
(19:19):
You know, what can be helpful isif you separate yourself from
it.
And this is really importantwork that it is helpful to have
someone, whether it's a coach,whether it's a therapist,
whether it's a mentor, someonethat you trust, someone that can
work with you through this,because it can be very hard to
(19:41):
make sense of things, especiallywhen you're in it, right?
But taking an eagle-eye view, soseparating yourself, really
bringing yourself up and seeingit from an eagle eye view, as if
you're just observing what ishappening, right?
That's when your clarity canreturn.
(20:04):
You want to all the time betrusting your body.
What is your body saying?
I don't care if your brain issaying, oh, this is seems okay.
This seems fine, and your body'sscreaming no, then you trust
your body.
Okay, your body is yourimmediate connection to truth.
Your brain is gonna tell you alot of stories.
(20:29):
So when we started going throughthe safe method, she started to
feel clear again, right?
She started working on thepatterns.
A lot of us have these patternsthat are sometimes decades old
of overexplaining, of notfeeling comfortable setting
boundaries.
She started setting boundaries,she removed herself from the
(20:54):
emotional hooks, right?
That emotional baiting.
She unhooked, it was a process,it didn't happen overnight.
But she was able to come back toherself.
She was able to calm, ground, bedecisive again, know her worth.
(21:21):
And eventually that dynamic, thespiral, it disintegrated.
Because again, a you're you'rejust a part of that narcissistic
game.
It's not a personal attack.
It is literally just a game.
(21:44):
And when you she removedherself, it's the game stopped.
So the shift is you seeing thatyou're not losing your power.
(22:05):
We never actually lose ourpower, but it can feel like
that.
But you're not losing it becauseyou're weak or fragile or
anything that constitutes anegative connotation, right?
We're losing our power, or itfeels like we're losing our
(22:26):
power because we are overgivingin the wrong places.
We are trying to fix somethingthat's never going to be fixed.
We're trying to make sense ofsomething that's never going to
make sense.
And again, right, you don't needto become less sensitive.
You don't need to shut down.
You certainly don't need toharden yourself.
(22:50):
But you need to stop trying toearn what someone does not have
the capacity to ever give you.
And it's about coming back toyourself, coming back to your
body, coming back to yoursafety, which is a divine right.
We all have a divine right tofeel safe in our body, in where
(23:11):
we are working, and who we are.
You are safe, you are strong,you are not alone in this.
There are so many people thathave gone, are going through,
will go through a dynamic ofthis sort.
(23:32):
So if you are like, ugh, feltlike I was all alone, like
nobody would understand.
There is a massive community ofpeople who get it.
If this landed with you, if itresonated with you, if you're
like, yes, this feels likesomething I have experienced.
(23:52):
I'm still trying to move throughit, understand it.
If you're realizing that, youknow, you're overgiving to
people that don't deserve yourovergiving, that it's like an
empty pit.
Again, we don't want to judge.
We're not trying to judge.
It's not about judgment, butit's just about recognizing and
(24:13):
seeing it for what it is.
Sometimes it's hard for theempath or the high-integrity,
heart-centered leader to reallysee these other dynamics.
I know for me it was challengingto really understand these
dynamics.
(24:33):
In my earlier years in juniorhigh, I remember some girls who
would call me to go out and Iwould go and meet them, and they
wouldn't show up.
And this happened a couple oftimes.
And I remember finally them,them laughing and saying, Why do
(24:54):
you keep going when we don'tcome?
And in my mind, I was thinking,why wouldn't I come?
If we made plans, of course I'mgoing to show up.
I follow through with what I sayI'm going to do.
And for me, it was a wake-upcall to say, oh, not everybody
(25:16):
is like that.
And for a bit, I tried tounderstand why they would even
think that was fun or enjoyableto tell someone to go meet them
and not show up.
I really couldn't understand.
Still to this day, I'm like,what enjoyment do you get out of
that other than a power andcontrol?
(25:39):
But I had to just leave, leaveit, stop trying to understand it
and just have the awareness thatthere are people out there that
are not going to operate inintegrity.
There are people out there thathave an emotional immaturity.
(26:00):
And there are people out therethat are just feeding off
manipulation, control, power.
They want to take, they don'twant to give.
And that is a part of the humanexperience.
And having boundaries, honoringyourself, making sure your
(26:23):
self-esteem, your self-worth areon point.
And if they're not, that's okay.
But getting the help you need toget them to a place where you
don't find yourself in thesedynamics as often.
You still might, right?
(26:43):
And there's nothing wrong withthat.
But what I found is once someonestarts going through the system,
they really start understandingit, they start putting in place
the boundaries, they start tofeel safe within themselves,
they start trusting themselvesthat when these dynamics show
their face or they come in, thatleader can tell a lot faster.
(27:08):
And they don't get entangledwith it anymore.
It's more of a quick awarenessof, oh, okay, I see this
dynamic.
I see what's happening here.
I'm going to separate myself orI know exactly how to handle
this.
I know how to deal with thisnow.
I'm not going to fall intooverexplaining, trying to
(27:30):
control it, trying to make itbetter.
I see it for what it is, and I'mgoing to use my tools.
If this is a topic that you wantmore on, please drop me a text
message.
You can head on over to the shownotes and you can send me a text
message, or you can always sendme an email.
Just make sure you put podcastquestion in the subject line
(27:54):
because we get a ton of emailsall the time, and we want these
ones to stand out.
And you can send it toinfotlisajefs.com.
If you would like to speak withme about private coaching for
2026, I'm going to have limitedspots for private coaching in
2026, but I will have a fewopenings for very deep long-term
(28:20):
coaching and then some VIP daysand some intensives and some
shorter term coaching.
So you can always book a testdrive consult at Lisa Jeffs.com.
We'll have a conversation andsee if it's a fit.
Leader, I love you.
I appreciate you.
Take care of yourself.
Remember, you are worth it.
You are deserving.
(28:41):
And as always, let's stayconnected.
SPEAKER_00 (28:53):
Big dreams, believing it.
Wisdom, we speaking and makingeverything that you're looking
for.
Brought to you by Lisa Jessica,the magnetic leader.
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