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March 11, 2024 47 mins

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Can the wisdom of Master Yoda withstand the scrutiny of General Kilkagno? Our latest episode ventures into the moral complexities of the Star Wars universe, casting a discerning eye on the Jedi Order's revered green sage. With General Kilkagno's sharp insights, we dissect Yoda's impact on the galaxy, questioning whether his guidance was a beacon of light or a shadow that contributed to the Republic's downfall. As we navigate through the Jedi archives' secretive nature and their ideological struggles with balance, we're left pondering if characters like Mace Windu and Count Dooku were sounding alarms that fell on deaf ears.

Journey with us as we grapple with the haunting decisions of Obi-Wan Kenobi and the ripple effects of Yoda's teachings on the fates of characters like Anakin Skywalker. The episode probes into the heart of fictional leadership and the ethics of society, where even the noblest intentions can lead to tragic outcomes. General Kilkagno helps us unravel the threads of destiny and morality, as we reflect on the choices that steered the galaxy toward darkness and consider how adherence to truth could have steered a different course.

The Force's balance is a contentious subject – is it achievable within the doctrines of the Jedi and Sith, or does it require a new perspective? Our dialogue explores this enigma, with Ahsoka Tano's unique journey serving as a beacon of what might have been. We conclude our exploration on a lighter note, connecting the dots between Star Wars tattoos and the narrative's themes of unity and duality. With a blend of serious reflection and cultural musings, this episode is a must-listen for both die-hard fans and those seeking a fresh interpretation of the Force's intricate dance between light and dark.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
Take a breath, let's dive in.
Hello, hello.
Hello, general Kilkagno, thankyou for being on the show

(00:23):
tonight.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Absolutely Happy to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
So I know you're a man and you're a myth and you're
a legend and everything inbetween, but I've always been a
Star Wars fan and I know thatyou're a Star Wars fan
Absolutely.
So my question for you is doyou think that Yoda hashtag the

(00:48):
green one, hashtag the man withthe fast green stick and he a
villain?
Or was he the good guy?
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Well, it's a great question and there's a lot of
places to start from and analyzefor any way you want to take
this, but I think ultimately youhave to go back to the

(01:19):
beginning.
Okay, so if you're lookingspecifically in the prequels the
rise of Palpatine and theEmpire before the fall of the
Republic you see a society thatis doing okay for itself but has

(01:41):
a lot of problems withsusceptibility to corruption.
You see a society where youhave the Jedi, who are supposed
to be almost a diplomatic arm ofthe Republic but yet still kind
of their own religious society,that are trying to stay out of

(02:05):
conflict, trying to resolveconflict.
They really don't have theirown set place in the society.
So with this, you kind of endup not knowing what the Jedi are
supposed to do.
Are they supposed to beenforcing their own law?

(02:27):
Are they supposed to beenforcing the Republic's law?
What are they really out hereto do?

Speaker 1 (02:36):
So here's my train of thinking when it comes to Yoda
and the Jedi Order, and it'sthat I love when fiction mirrors
reality, in that individualsfear what they don't understand.

(02:59):
And I think the Jedi, if theydidn't align themselves with the
Empire, they would have been anentity that existed, that had
power, that was greater thanmost, and at this point as well,
the Sith were basically extinct, right, absolutely.
So there's nothing to reallytruly bring balance to the Force

(03:25):
to say, okay, well, this groupexists, that if this needs to be
checked, this group needs to bechecked, then we're okay.
Or we can align ourselves withthe Jedi or we can align
ourselves with the Sith.
That option was not on thetable, exactly so because it was
not on the table, he had totruly align himself with the

(03:48):
Empire, because at least thenhe'll be working with the system
.
Then, to be susceptible to theentire galaxy at any moment,
it's like all right, well, youguys are a threat, let's attack
you guys, and then it just belike warring nonstop versus
having order.
So, basically, the same thingthat the Sith did, the Jedi also

(04:10):
did as well.
Yes, that's the irony of it isthat they talk about order even
though the Jedi never use theterm order.
They use the term balance,which is the same exact thing
Exactly.
So was Yoda the bad guy, or washe just the person that was
trying to delay the inevitable?

Speaker 2 (04:33):
I mean, you can look at it too, as he was definitely
trying to delay the inevitable.
I don't think he intended toend up as the cause of the fall
of the Republic, but a lot ofhis either inaction or outdated

(04:58):
views within the Jedi ordercaused an acceleration towards
the whole collapse of theRepublic into the rise of the
Empire.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Okay.
So if you take that stance,then right, displaying devil's
advocate for a moment, thenwould you say that the two
extreme viewpoints now right,that either Mace Windu was right
or Count Dooku was right.
Yeah, I mean, and again youknow, because both saw something

(05:34):
that everyone else in the Jediorder just didn't see.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Correct, I think they're.
In a way, they're kind of bothright.
You know, there was even kindof its own corruption within the
Jedi order of having a highcouncil that's making the
decision for all of these Forceusers that are kidnapped at

(06:02):
birth, raised under thisideology, and you have no choice
in the matter.
This is where you go, this iswhat you do and we're going to
do what you tell, what we tellyou to do, and because of that,
you're just kind of trapped intothis one viewpoint of what
balance is, where there's onlylight.

(06:24):
And if you're talking trulyabout balance, only light isn't
balance.
Balance is a combination oflight and dark, and that's why
the Great Jedi existed Exactly.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yeah, it's something that the Jedi Council, when it
came to them as an organizationand how they even utilize
information, it was very theywere very secretive.
Yes, you know, like when theytalk about the archives, oh, you
needed special clearance to seethe archives.
So it's not as if knowledge was, you know, readily and freely

(07:01):
available for the Jedithemselves, so they could even
truly pursue balance.
It was like no, it's, balanceis what we tell you.
Balance is.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Exactly, and that's why you know the metaphorical
blindness to the future was alsoan ideological blindness to the
future, because you're onlyviewing one side of the force.
You're only observing,practicing, meditating on these

(07:32):
ideas of just the light.
You're never going to seeanything else coming your way,
you're never going to notice anytype of Sith Lord working in
the background, in the shadows.
All you can see is light.
Yeah, you are literally blindedby the force to peer into
anything you can't.
Just as you could be blinded indarkness, you could be blinded

(07:54):
in light.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah.
So in my last semester ofcollege, when I had to write my
senior paper, there was a linein there that I was just trying
to be poetic, but in that momentI knew I was a true Star Wars
fan, because I wrote that inorder to see the other side, you

(08:19):
have to at least go to themiddle part of the bridge.
You can't shoot.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
It's true.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
You know, but that was really just my own
interpretation of the Jedi andStar Wars lore and that at least
with the Sith, a lot of themcould say that, hey, I've been
to the other side so I know whatit's like.
But not many people were.
You know, it's not the otherway around.
Yeah, it's like a lot of theJedi is like, once they go to

(08:46):
the other side, they're like oh,that's it, yep, you're done,
I'm done, you're done, you know,unless you're you know Raven,
of course, but that's adifferent story.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
So if you're talking specifically about Yoda and what
may or may not make him avillain, I don't think that he
was absolutely a bad guy.
It was a lack of experience ofdealing with a powerful Sith
Lord for thousands of years thathas been manipulating a war on

(09:25):
a galactic scale to cause moreconfusion, to cause more
uncertainty, using the Jedi notas a diplomatic core or a
peacekeeping core, but are nowbeing conscripted as generals
and Padawans, as commanders forentire clone legions throughout
the entire galaxy.
You're plunging them into evenmore chaos.

(09:48):
Yes, so without somebody havinga clear head or clear guidance
on where we should be going orhow we should be dealing with
this situation, your kind ofinaction or decisions will be
judged harshly.
But ultimately, as the head ofthe Jedi Council, as the one

(10:12):
making decisions, not evennecessarily with the agreement
of the entire Council you becomeresponsible through inaction.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Absolutely.
You know, I've always the oneof the things that I've always
looked at the Jedi Council andI'm a huge Obi-Wan fan.
It's probably one of my, maybemy favorite character personally
, just because I can see myselfas him.

(10:44):
Like, if I had to choose acharacter like I'm Obi-Wan,
because I just get thatarchetype right, yes.
But at the same time, as muchas I respect Obi-Wan, he's still
not free from being criticizedfor being weak.
Absolutely, because it's thatold adage of oh, if you see your

(11:08):
friends jump off a bridge,you're going to jump off a
bridge too.
You know, yeah, like everyonethat was there and was oh well,
we're just going to do this orno one's going to do anything,
we're just going to do our ownthing.
That just made things worse.
Oh, we're going to investigate,but we're just going to make
things worse, whereas at leastwith Dooku, he was just like you

(11:35):
know what.
I think this is the right thingto do and I'm openly
acknowledging that when I was apart of the Jedi Order, we were
corrupt, and I can see that wewere corrupt and that we're
really just a military forcethat's being used and the reason
why.
In the end, he could foreshadowthings that I think even Yoda

(11:56):
couldn't foreshadow, because,just as Palpatine utilized Order
66, well, there was an Order 65.
And Yoda didn't use it.
He didn't pull the trigger forOrder 65.
So Mace Windu knew what Order65 was.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
But to touch on Obi-Wan briefly too, there's
also the saying of you had onejob.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
And when it came down to it, he fought his brother.
He was victorious, and then hedidn't finish the job.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
So he's also responsible, considering that
Yoda and Obi-Wan are survivorsof the Purge, two of the most
powerful masters that are stillalive.
They come up with a plan.
Yoda fights to a stalemate andloses, but Obi-Wan has his duty.

(12:55):
He does it, and then he doesn'tfinish the job.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
He chooses arguably even the worst fate of allowing
someone to just sit there andburn in lava, as opposed to
giving them a merciful warrior'sdeath and ending their
suffering.
He just chooses to watch hisbrother burn as an angry,
charred half-corpse.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
So here's something that I always found interesting
about Star Wars.
I know we're not talking aboutwhy Yoda's good or bad Is that
when Obi-Wan leaves him to burnand die eventually.
If he did, that was his fate.
He would have became nothing,he would have became ash, he
would have been evaporated,essentially.

(13:43):
So when Obi-Wan fights DarthVader on the spaceship and
Obi-Wan disintegrates or poof,he's like hey, this is what you
left me to do, my fate.

(14:05):
And now I just gave it to you.
And I think a lot of people missthat symbolism in why he chose
to end him in that way.
Well, listen, he was going tolet me burn to death and look,
he just burned to death at anaccelerated rate.
He showed him a warrior's death.
He showed him mercy in a waythat, as Darth Vader, he showed

(14:29):
him mercy.
He didn't torture him, heshowed him mercy.
He gave him his just deserts,whereas he's like well, if he
burns, he dies and he happens tosurvive.
Well, I didn't kill him.
He's my brother.
Yeah, it'll be one.
It's a jerk, yes, and he's like.
I guess that it's somethingthat it paved me to say when I

(14:53):
was rewatching the prequelsrecently and I was like man,
it'll be one.
I'm disappointed in your action, sir.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean it all does tie back toYoda because, ultimately, as the
head of the Jedi Council, asthe lead teacher of the entire
order, if you are teaching yourstudents this path of Zed and

(15:23):
this path of letting go ofemotion, letting go of feeling
and making clear decisions withan unburdened mind, it still
there's all of these examplesthroughout the war of just
falling apart, not followingyour teachings and allowing

(15:44):
yourself to become thisemotionally charged person and
people didn't know how tounderstand or deal with these
feelings and it caused a lot ofissues throughout the entire war

(16:05):
.
I mean, you know again, part ofYoda's failings and what you
could argue again continues tomake him more of a villain.
It's his handling of Anakin youknow you're talking about.
Okay, we take children atinfancy and we brainwash or

(16:25):
program them from infancy tobelieve this certain thing, and
now you're taking a child that'spreteens, that has had life
experiences, that knows theirmother, loves their mother, has
these attachments to friends,family.
It may not be the best life,but they still have these

(16:49):
attachments.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
And you also accepted a kid with trauma, with pure
emotional trauma as well.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, growing up as a slave.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, they grew up as a slave and now you give this
person that has trauma, thatdidn't go to the Jedi, shrink
Exactly, and now has a bunch ofpower.
I mean, as they say, absolutepower corrupts absolutely.
Yes.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
And again, also through the series, we see these
instances and opportunitieswhere Yoda has used his own
sense of freedom and teachingwith radical free thinkers like
Dooku.
Yes, you know Dooku being hispadawan, dooku being not just

(17:36):
your average.
Oh okay, I just accept thingsfor what they are.
He was essentially a king.
He was a king.
He was a count of.
He was a count.
He was a, you know, alandholder, a politician.
His family came from a line ofpoliticians.
He was a smart individual andwhy Yoda took him on as a

(17:57):
padawan?
Because he knew he was going tobe too difficult for anybody
else to deal with.
You talk about the line ofradicals.
You have Dooku, who trainsQui-Gon, who defies the council
at every opportunity and refusesto become a master because he
can't just follow the rules.
Who trains Obi-Wan, who takesthat same ideology of I'm just

(18:23):
going to do whatever I want.
I don't really care, we're just, I'm just going to do my own
thing because I can.
And it gets worse further downthe line, exactly Because, like,
the basis of those teachingsgets lost.
You know, you have Dooku, whowas an actual thinker, an actual
, you know, free thinker, toslowly devolving down the chain.

(18:49):
And that's why one of the mostinteresting things they talk
about with Duel of the FatesDuel of the Fates isn't about
Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's fate.
The Duel of the Fates is aboutAnakin's fate.
Yes, it's about if Qui-Gonsurvives.
Anakin turns out okay BecauseQui-Gon has that actual

(19:14):
understanding of those freethinking tendencies.
He knew what the future couldbe.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
Yes, Whereas Obi-Wan was constantly questing what the
future was, what it could be.
He didn't know, yes, and he wasone step away from Yoda,
whereas Qui-Gon was right nextto Yoda.
Yes, because they also had thatunderstanding In a way.
What a lot of people didn'tlike, don't realize the Star

(19:43):
Wars fans is that, essentially,qui-gon is Yoda's grandson.
If you were to talk aboutlineage in terms of that's his
grandson, yes, and why Qui-Goncould have the ability to be a
free thinker and do the thingsthat he wanted to.
Because there's a repetitivepattern that you begin to notice

(20:06):
is that Yoda didn't go intohe's not Grogu, you know.
He didn't go into the JediOrder as some child.
He went in there as an adultthat happens to have an
extremely long lifespan.
Then he's like, okay, all of mystudents are going to be just
like me.
So then Dooku is an adult,that's lived life, knows who he

(20:31):
is, knows his parents, knows hisfamily, his lineage and whatnot
.
And then those people are like,all right, we're just going to
continue the trend, we'll skiptwo generations, but then we'll
go back to how he did things andthen you have the free thinking
.
So that's kind of like havingpower.
But then it's like, okay, well,what do we do with this power?
In comes Anakin.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
Yes, and the biggest thing is, anakin has all of this
power.
He has all of this emotionalattachment.
That isn't something thatanybody aside from.
Maybe Yoda would have theability to wrestle with and help
control those emotions, in thesense of the Jedi's teaching,

(21:16):
but instead he gets paired withObi-Wan, who is fresh out of
being a padawan, has no ideawhat the heck he's doing.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
And their age difference is not that vast.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
No, it really isn't.
And on top of that, it's likebeing a godparent and you're
like, oh okay, well, this daywon't ever come, it'll be okay,
everything's going to be fine.
And then, three days after youbecome a godparent, now all of a

(21:53):
sudden you're stuck with thiskid.
You're like I didn't want this,I'm not ready for this, what am
I supposed to do?
I just got out of becoming apadawan.
How the heck am I supposed toteach somebody now?
I just finished that stage.
I don't have any kind ofteaching experience, so you're
creating a recipe for disasterwhen in that moment, there

(22:15):
should have been someoneexperienced to step in and be
like hey, I understand.
Okay, sure, this was Qui-Gon'swish that he be trained.
Maybe we don't pair him withObi-Wan.
Maybe Obi-Wan can be there asthe older brother for some
guidance and to help him withthings, but he probably
shouldn't teach him.
We should probably givesomebody like Yoda, somebody

(22:38):
like Mace Windu, who have thatstrength, this is the job.
This is the job.
You're a kid.
We're going to train you, butyou're going to need to go
underneath some special hardcoretraining to help get you under
control.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
Because all they did was just emotional attachment.
All he ever learned in the JediOrder was emotional attachment.
Of course outside of the Order.
He had attachments, right, heknows what it, knew what it was,
but it wasn't like for Dooku,who, dooku and Yoda.
It's like there's still thatlevel of professionalism,
essentially For Qui-Gon andDooku.

(23:17):
There's also still that, yes,there's emotions there, but
we're still going to follow therules and we're going to go our
separate ways because we don'tbelieve in the same thing.
It wasn't hey, qui-gon, I'mleaving, you should come with me
.
It was hey, I already know thatyou think this way and you
believe in harmony and the goodand whatnot.

(23:41):
But hey, I see the Jedi thisway.
So I'm going to leave, yeah,but for I think, in any
situation, if Obi-Wan was theone to die, I do think that you
were right that, from a teacherto student perspective, that

(24:02):
Anakin would be okay, but Idon't think that he would be
okay in the sense that hewouldn't have violent tendencies
or he wouldn't have been rougharound the edges.
I still think that the loss ofObi-Wan would have affected him
deeply as well, to where hewould have been troubled and he
would have teeter on the line,but ultimately he would have

(24:23):
been good.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, absolutely, but it would be having someone who
would be accepting of thoseemotional attachments Exactly,
instead of just like then's therules, we're going to follow
them because this is what I wastaught, and now I'm a Jedi
Knight and I'm going to teachyou because this is what I was
taught.
It's hey, you have some thingsthat you need to deal with and

(24:49):
unpack and you're going to carrythis stuff with you for the
rest of your life.
So we're going to work withthat and we're going to help you
control that and use that as afocus and help you not just
follow the rules exactly asthey're laid out.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
You know people I always thought was like
fascinating.
And I don't know if it'sbecause I was.
I think I was in middle schoolwhen episode five came out, I'm
not sure.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
It would have been episode two.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Yeah, it would have probably been episode two Sorry
episode two, sorry Episode twoand three.
I remember watching you know,star Wars and saying man, why is
it that when Anakin, you know,goes back, you know, to his home
world and he slaughterseveryone, he's still a Jedi?

Speaker 2 (25:50):
It's again going back to, going back to his Yoda the
villain.
It's like oh man, you went anddid that.
We're just going to kind ofsweep that under the rug and
pretend that none of this everhappened.
Yeah, oh, you just went andflew away and did your own thing
because you thought so.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
Oh, okay, well just going to pretend that didn't
happen.
But the craziest thing is and Ibelieve this you know what they
say guilt by association, Right.
So you have this person that'sa part of this group leaves the
group and commits mass murder,right, and then they cover it up

(26:27):
, only doing what Palpatinealready wanted to happen.
He's like he's always lurkingin the shadows waiting for
someone to mess up.
They could use that to hisadvantage.
Exactly, I think that's what Ican say.
I hate Palpatine but I love himat the same time, because he's

(26:48):
not going out of his way, makingpeople do bad things.
Essentially, he's like huh well, you did the bad thing, Now
I'll bring you in.
Now I can blackmail you, Now Iknow that you're ready for me to
teach you a lesson in the darkside.
But he's not like preemptively,like revealing himself to
people, Correct, and I thinkthat's why he's a special kind

(27:11):
of villain.

Speaker 2 (27:12):
Yeah, he's definitely also antagonizing the whole
destruction from within.
Yes, with it's like okay, thesethings keep happening and I
guess we're just going to haveto keep doing these things.
And now he wants more things.
I guess we're just going tohave to go along with it and
just slowly, bit by bit,everything starts to fall apart

(27:33):
within you.
Have, you know, politicalinfighting within, within the
Jedi themselves that are causingagain a kid that's already got
a ton of emotional baggage, like, hey, you know this guy that's
taking a real special interestin you and you think of as as a
confidant, we want you to go spyon him and report back to us

(27:56):
and and tell us what's going onin there.
And it's like that's likedeception and lying and the
opposite of everything thatyou've taught me, that you've
been trying to teach me, and I'mtrying to be a good person.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
I'm trying.
You think I already have agirlfriend on the side.
What more?

Speaker 2 (28:13):
How many more, how many more pieces of my life am I
supposed to be conflicted with?
Yeah, you know, and again youknow, you're talking about Yoda
giving this order of like hey,we're going to go spy on on the
president, the president of theUnited States.
I know he's your best friend,but we're going to need you to
report back to us and tell youwhat he's doing in there.

(28:34):
And it's like this isn't what Iwas supposed to be doing
Exactly.
And then you have your, yourteacher and your, your brother
that's supposed to be helpingyou and offering you guidance,
and he's like, yeah, you shoulddo this too.
And it's like the one personthat you think would be hey,

(28:55):
don't, don't do this, this isjust going to mess you up.
It's also like, hey, you shoulddo this thing.
We need you to do this thing.
We need you to spy on him.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
We need information, you know.
But here's the thing that Ialways found fascinating when
Anakin and Padme were together,obi-wan knew, yeah, and Obi-Wan
knew because Obi-Wan is Anakinas well, because he also has

(29:29):
some secret person that justhappens to be a Mandalorian.
Yes, you know, I always thoughtit was fascinating.
He's like well, I'm doing it,you know, and everything's okay
with me.
So clearly, if he's doing it,you know, everything's okay with
them.
Yeah, but it's this thing ofthis mismatchment of we're all
breaking the rules and we're alltelling ourselves that we're

(29:49):
not breaking the rules, orexactly we're not breaking it
that much, but not realizingthat now it's rampant.
Oh yeah, because it's people atthe top that are all breaking
the rules.
So what happens down below?
Everything falls the chain ofcommand has disintegrated?
Yes, and it's.
That's the mirror of societytoday, where you know a lot of

(30:11):
people.
They're like why does work suck?
Like, why is every day a badday?
Did you look up top?
Are the people at top doingeverything that they're supposed
to do?
Are they being immoral andethical people, or are they just
letting crap roll down belowand creating chaos for the
person at the bottom, ExactlyMaking every day suck?

(30:32):
Yep.
So I will always love howfiction mirrors reality, because
the truth is truly three to thefiction, Absolutely 100%.
Was he the bad guy?

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yes, yes, I mean ultimately was.
Did he have good intentions?
Was he trying to keep theentirety of the Republic
together?
Of course, but just throughinaction, poor management and a
breaking of your own code to tryto justify saving the Republic,

(31:07):
you've compromised everything.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
You know what I always thought was super funny?
You want to do all those things, but you want to do those
things with a broken Jedi order.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
It's like it wasn't a well well, well, well machine
anymore.
No, you have, it's kind of.
There's a theory.
When I was in school, there wasa there's a I forgot what the
paradigm is called, but in thisparadigm it's it was stating
that after X amount ofgenerations, you're, the views
of the first generation nolonger exist, right?

(31:40):
So the first generation isalways labeled as the hero, like
generation, or the saviors, andso.
So, after you've been the savior, what are you now?
Now you're the occupier.
So I see they did that.
Oh, we liberated you guys, yes.
And now, oh, you guys didn'tleave, exactly.
And now you guys didn't leaveand you have a clones to now

(32:03):
reinforce your authority, yes.
What?
So then Palpatine is over here.
You know being all excitedbecause, wow, these genres are
idiots, yep.
So now they're occupiers, andthey don't realize that they're
occupiers.
They're conquerors, don'trealize that they're conquerors.
And guess what?
They have their own privatearmy.

(32:24):
Because, at the end of the day,what did Palpatine do?
He goes.
The clones are doing whateverthey wanted because of their
strong attachment to the Jedi,the Jedi masters.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, and you know it was.
It was a Jedi master whoordered the creation ordered the
creation of the army.
It wasn't me.
Yeah, the Jedi built this army.
I had no.
I had no say I'll take the freearmy, but it wasn't me.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, it's like I didn't go to Kamino.
Yeah, I don't even like thosepeople.
I've never seen one in personand it's true he hasn't been
around them like you, you know.
He distanced himself from themquite well.
Yeah, you know, the thing thatdidn't make sense to me in Star
Wars was that that theChancellor exists and he's

(33:11):
basically the president of theGalactic Empire or Republic.
Yes, depending on what timeperiod we're looking at, right?
Yeah, they exist.
He's a ruler.
The Jedi exist.
There are checks and balancesthat also exist in the Lord,
right?
Yes, if the Jedi had decided tobe in the light, as they're

(33:38):
supposed to be, right, becauseof balance and how they operate
and we're straightforward,palpatine are being watched, not
saying that.
You know that that being soovert about something is going
to lead to a positive outcome.
Yes, but at least they wouldhave been in line with what

(33:58):
their philosophy was.
And that would have also madethings difficult for Palpatine,
because now he can't manipulatethe situation as much as.
Oh, you guys think that I'mgoing to give Anakin, this idiot
kid with emotional issues,information to make me look bad?
Yeah, I was like no, that tookthat off.

(34:20):
That would have, honestly,would have taken that off the
table, and I love the philosophyof that.
When you speak the truth andyou're being a good person, it
doesn't mean that bad thingscan't happen to you, but it does
mean that when bad things dohappen, no one's gonna look at
you as a bad guy.
Exactly, and the Jedi wouldhave been like sure, we told you

(34:43):
what our intentions were, butguess what?
You did all those bad thingsnot us Whereas Kyle Petitin was
like well, you guys fight on me,you guys have a private army
that I don't know what you guysdo, cause I don't even issue
half of these command.
You know, I just have the, I'mjust the president, but I wasn't
the person that made thedecision to bring my army to.

(35:03):
You know, destroy Kamino.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
So, if anything could be said about Yoda, what made
you love Yoda as a character?

Speaker 2 (35:20):
Initially in the original trilogy.
He is just the crazy old hermitwho's I mean?
You look at him, you're talking, you know, back in the eighties
.
He's just a weird muppet with aweird voice and he's this old
Wisen guy who's supposed to bethis great teacher of things.

(35:42):
And your first introductionyou're like no, it's just some
crazy green thing.
And you know, slowly, over time, you begin to realize that oh
yeah, now this is Yoda, this isthe guy.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
And then you know you go through all this training
and you know Luke is beingtrained doing all this stuff and
you know Yoda's most famousquote of do or do not.
There is no try.
Yeah, it's just such a you cansay that it's fortune cookie
wisdom.
But at that point in the storyit's such a great moment because

(36:21):
it is fortune cookie wisdom,but it's also profound.
Yeah, because either do whatyou say you're gonna do or don't
do it.
Yeah, because if you say you'regonna try to do it, you're
already setting yourself up forfailure.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
I was interpreted that quite differently, but in
the same vein, in that itrevealed the hypocrisy of the
Jedi, because if the Jedi saythat they're for the light and
the Sith are the dark side ofthe Force, why were they doing
such dark things?
You didn't choose to do theright thing.

(36:57):
You didn't try in that moment.
They should have tried to dothe right thing as opposed to
choose to do the wrong thing.
And I always wondered, like whyYoda never tried to course
correct.
And his version of coursecorrecting, if you're going

(37:18):
based on the Clone Wars, whichI'm happy that I finished that
series was oh, let me just go onQui-Gon's journey.
That was by then it was already1159.
Yes, you know.
So that's something that alwaysfound fascinating that in the
end, qui-gon became the masterand Yoda became the student.

(37:39):
Yeah, only to become thestudent, I mean the master of
Luke Skywalker in the end.
Yes, so who truly broughtbalance to the Force?
Nobody did.
No exactly, exactly no onebrought balance to the Force,

(37:59):
because, within the philosophythat order brings chaos, chaos
also brings order, and so allthey did in the process was just
create chaos.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Well, if you truly want to play Devil's Advocate
the person who really broughtbalance to the Force Palpatine
and Darth Vader.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Of course, of course.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
You know, in the absolute terms of bringing
balance to the Force, there's somany Jedi and you have two Sith
, you.
It's a very unequal balance ofpower and just as the Sith are
super strong because there'sonly two of them versus
thousands of Jedi, as thosenumbers decline, for the Jedi

(38:45):
order, that balance of power isslowly shifted back towards even
.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
You know, there's still always a point where the
Sith are going to be morepowerful simply because more
Jedi exist, whether they were ina temple together, studying
together, or scatteredthroughout the galaxy after the
collapse of the Republic, andthey're all doing their own
thing and hiding from, you know,inquisitors and Vader and the

(39:19):
Emperor, but those dark sideusers are always going to be
more powerful just becausethings aren't in balance.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
You know what I realize about the dark side
users, that is, their downfallIs that you instantly realize
that when the numbers start toshift in their favor, they
become just like the Jedi,exactly.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
And that's I mean.
If you look at it, that's thetrue definition of balance in
the force.
Yeah, Because as one side losespower, the other side gains
power.
Yes, yes.
So as your Jedi are falling inpower and they're falling and
falling and falling, you haveall of these Jedi and you have
these two super powerful Sith.
Well, as the Jedi numbers fall,the Sith are slowly going to

(40:04):
get weaker.
Now it's not going to benoticeable because it's still
just two of them versus hundreds, but that balance does shift
until you get to a point.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
The reason why I say that they become like the Jedi
is that, ok, the Inquisitorsbecome a thing, right, well, if
it's just two, why do we needyou have Palpatine, darth Vader
and the Inquisitors?
You know, and you're like, ok,you literally just create
another order, essentially yes,so now all the Jedi that are

(40:37):
fleeing, ok, like, say so, couldchooses to not say that she's a
Jedi.
Well, she still is a Jedi.
Yes, well, when she uses theForce, now she's significantly
stronger.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
But it also comes down to what you're
practitioners, of course, justbecause you are, you know, a
Jedi.
If you begin to study the darkside of the Force and bring
yourself within balance, thenyou're bringing more balance.
Yeah, you're bringing morebalance in general.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yeah, so you know, but also I think that Ahsoka is
what the Jedi should have been.
Is that, yes, you don'tnecessarily belong to this order
?
Is that the Force is everywhere?
Right?
Yes, and what I think the Forceis?
The Force is consciousness, andconsciousness means, like,

(41:33):
being aware, right?
So there's moments in which youhave to go to the dark side.
If you have to say that there'san intruder or something and
you're going to save an infantor whatnot, you're going to a
dark place to do this good thing, or say that there's great

(41:54):
adversity that exists and youchoose to not, you know, meet
violence with violence, but youchoose to go to a pace of peace
Like that, to me, is the Force,is the take, you choosing the
option of doing the right thingYou're just consciously aware of
, like what you know side thatyou're supposed to choose, but
you're not lingering in one forfar too long.

(42:15):
And I think, with the Sith andwith the Jedi in their absolute,
they were too absolute in theirfeelings or philosophies.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, the only solution is tohave a conscious Jedi order and
a Sith order.
You have these differentschools of thought, in the sense
of one is focused on emotionand tapping into your emotions

(42:47):
and using those to fuel yourpower.
You have the Jedi, who areusing peace and letting go of
your feelings and yourattachments to give yourself
inner peace.
Both are paths to power, yes,but if you don't have both of

(43:07):
those schools, then somebody'sgoing to fall through the cracks
.
Yes, and when they fall throughthe cracks, you end up with
Anakin and Darth Vader.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
Yeah, you know, something that I always thought
was quite profound about StarWars when I looked at what it
meant to be, you know, a Jedi ora Sith Lord was that it's.
Both are just human and thatyou can be happy right now and

(43:40):
you can stay in a place ofhappiness.
You can be depressed right nowand you can stay in that place
of being depressed.
But in the grand scheme ofthings, life has highs and lows
and, just like with the Jedi andthe Sith, I think they forgot
that everything is a cycle andthat in its original inception

(44:06):
before, there was a dark side,you know, in a political sense,
and people decided to create,you know, societies and
civilizations that they were alljust one, because it's just one
force.
And they're choosing to say thedark side and the light side of
the force, but it's just oneforce and they were just one,
people at one at one point.
And how it worked, if I'm notmistaken, was that you would go

(44:31):
through that phase of being apart of the dark side, if you
would get sent off to a place togo through those emotions, and
then you'd come back and then,somewhere along the lines you
know, people decided, hey, I'mjust going to stay in this and
you're going to stay in that,and that is how we are today as
a society, and the world, itseems, is that way.

(44:52):
We're just going to stay here.
It feels comfortable.
I don't want to know what it'slike to drink that Kool-Aid I
like my own Kool-Aid, of course,and we're staying in that
flavor for way too long that wedon't realize it's getting stale
.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
That same echo chamber of hearing the same
things that make you verycomfortable to be there, exactly
.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Exactly.
I guess that's kind of how Ifeel, and I think God be a very
good self-lord.
The reason why I think that isbecause I get too comfortable
with being alone, that it'salmost addicting and it's easy
for me to stay in that place ofisolation and I have to fight

(45:32):
every fiber in my body to notstay in that fiber of isolation.
You know, it's just me though.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
We all have our vices .

Speaker 1 (45:47):
Exactly, mine is silence.
Don't get to experience thatmuch these days, nope, but
whenever I find it, I just wantto hold on to it Of course.
Oh man, I just want to saythank you for, you know, taking
the time to be a part of thisand being a true fan, of course.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
Absolutely, buddy.
I'm happy to make an appearanceand have a great conversation
with you about not just whatmakes Yoda maybe the villain,
not the villain, but, since heis maybe the villain or not,
everything else that ties inForce Anakin, obi-wan,

(46:32):
everything else it's allimportant.
You can't just talk exclusivelyabout Yoda, because you miss so
much of what external factorscontributed to the fall of the
Republic and the rise ofPalpatine and the Empire.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
So, interestingly enough, I have a.
You know, I was.
This is a corny thing, and Ijust came to the realization of
this.
If one person has a tattoo andit says Imperial on it, right,
but then another person has atattoo and it's a Stormtrooper,

(47:11):
and those two people shake hands, what does that mean?

Speaker 2 (47:17):
I don't know.
That's a good question.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Two things that are separate became one.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Are they Imperial Stormtroopers?
Now, maybe I don't know.
Something that just baffled mymind and we will end it on that
note.
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