Unlock the secrets to a thriving learning culture within your organization as Dr. James McKenna peels back the layers on why traditional training methods often fall short. With a focus on creating environments where upskilling and reskilling become second nature, we engage in a dialogue that challenges the conventional wisdom on workplace learning. You'll walk away with a new perspective on the Universal Design for Learning framework and how it can revolutionize your team's growth.
- HBR Article: "Build a Strong Learning Culture on Your Team" by James McKenna
- Upskill, Reskill, Thrive: Optimizing Learning and Development in the Workplace by James McKenna, EdD
- HBR Article: "Why Great Employees Leave “Great Cultures” by Melissa Daimler
- Universal Design for Learning at CAST.org
- Marine Corps’ Learning Philosophy - MCDP 7
Dr. James McKenna [Guest] is an award-winning educator, speaker, and consultant with more than 20 years of experience in learning design and development, inclusive practices, and teaching and training. He is the author of Upskill, Reskill, Thrive! Optimizing Learning & Development in the Workplace (2023).
Travis C. Mallett [Host], received the Masters of Liberal Arts (ALM) in Management from Harvard University Extension School, where he has also earned Professional Graduate Certificates in both Organizational Behavior and Strategic Management. Travis previously received undergraduate degrees in Electrical Engineering, General Mathematics, and Music from Washington State University. He also served as an Engineering Manager at Schweitzer Engineering Laboratories, where he led a team responsible for developing and maintaining SEL's highest-selling product line. An innovative force in engineering, Travis holds numerous patents and has authored papers and books across diverse subjects. His passion for continuous learning and organizational excellence propels him to explore and illuminate the intricacies of management theories. Through his podcast, "The Management Theory Toolbox", he offers valuable insights on effective leadership, business innovation, and strategic methodologies.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'd like to say that work is learning and learning is
work.
Learning happens everywhere,not just in training, but
happens best when it'sintentionally supported, it's
shared and it's transferred intoactual performance improvement.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome back to the Management Theory Toolbox, your
top destination for the behindthe scenes of the management and
business world.
Now, this isn't your typicalbusiness podcast.
Yes, there are plenty ofresources out there that will
give you specific tips andtricks to manage your employees
or create a strategic plan, buthere we believe that management
(00:43):
is too complex to be summarizedin a few tips and tricks.
At the Management TheoryToolbox, our mission is always
to go a layer deeper, uncoveringtheories and tools that you can
adapt to your unique situation,making you more effective than
trying to follow somecookie-cutter behaviors.
(01:03):
More effective than trying tofollow some cookie-cutter
behaviors.
Over the course of our journey,we've developed an analogy of
organizations as living humansystems and we've found that
organizations mirror many of thefeatures of the human brain.
While exploring that analogy,we realized in episode 9 that
(01:25):
organizations, like the humanbrain, have the remarkable
feature of being able to learnand adapt, both organically and
intentionally.
But that's only part of thestory.
The people that make up theorganization are also learning
and adapting.
Sometimes individuals learnfrom the organization, are also
learning and adapting.
Sometimes individuals learnfrom the organization and
(01:46):
sometimes the organizationlearns from the individuals,
creating this perpetualinterconnected dance between the
individual and organizationallearning.
In our last episode, we talkedwith Dr Ryan Smerek about
individual and organizationallearning at a high level,
discussing three metaphors forunderstanding individual
learning, as well as learning inan organization versus learning
(02:09):
by an organization.
Today, we're going to dive evendeeper into this topic and add
some new concepts andterminology to our toolbox.
One angle to this topic attemptsto directly grapple with a
space where individual andorganizational learning meet
together and interact, andthat's the concept of a learning
(02:33):
culture.
Typically, the idea of alearning culture is described
something like this Learningculture promotes continuous
development, adaptability,individual ownership of learning
, organizational support,learning from mistakes,
personalization, alignment withorganizational goals and a
(02:54):
mindset of curiosity andinnovation.
If you're like me, you've heardgeneric descriptions like this
a thousand times and personally,I've never really found them to
be all that helpful.
Thousand times, and personallyI've never really found them to
be all that helpful.
Sure, the overall idea of alearning culture makes sense.
We want to create anenvironment that promotes both
individual and organizationallearning and, yes, we want to
(03:15):
make sure our employees feelsafe in learning and failing as
they advance the envelope ofpossibilities for the
organization.
But I'm willing to bet that ifwe just stop there, most of us
will go into the office tomorrowand completely forget about the
concept, as more pressingconcerns such as a factory
defect, customer complaint or anemployee's performance issue
(03:37):
command our attention.
It seems there's no time todevelop a learning culture,
whatever that means.
So what's our solution?
We create a learning anddevelopment department which is
tasked with creating trainingfor employees, perhaps even
sometimes tasked with fosteringa learning culture.
(03:57):
Unfortunately, l&d teams usuallyhave neither the influence nor
the authority to truly create alearning culture, and providing
effective training while beingdisconnected from the actual
work of employees is not alwaysvery effective.
Recently, dr James McKenna ofthe California Collaborative for
Educational Excellence wrote aHarvard Business Review article
(04:20):
titled Build a Strong LearningCulture on your Team, in which
he summarizes the issues.
First, training is oftendeveloped too late and not kept
up to date with current needs.
Every learner is also unique,and the result is a
one-size-fits-none approach.
Training can impart knowledge,but often that doesn't produce
(04:44):
new skills which requirecoaching instead.
And finally, there seems to bethis cultural disconnect.
Leaders can say they valuelearning, but the reality is
workers actually perceive thatthey have less than 1% of their
time available for learning.
Dr McKenna offers some remedies,which we'll discuss.
(05:05):
These include upskilling,reskilling, becoming experts at
learning, not just experts inthe specific tasks or fields of
work as well as a frameworkcalled Universal Design for
Learning, or UDL, which wasdevised under the direction of
the neuropsychologist David Roseof the Harvard Graduate School
of Education and a co-founder,anne Meyer.
(05:26):
So let's dive in and explorethese topics.
But instead of me explainingeach of these, why don't we ask
Dr McKenna directly?
So let me introduce our guestfor today's episode, dr James
McKenna.
Hi, james, and welcome to theshow.
Hey, travis, thanks for havingme on.
Before we get started, go aheadand introduce yourself and tell
(05:46):
us a bit about your backgroundand your work.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Sure thing.
So I'm James McKenna and I'mthe Assistant Director of
Professional Learning andLeadership Development at the
California Collaborative forEducational Excellence, which I
admit is a mouthful.
Here I work with partnersacross the state to develop
professional learning resourcesand supports for approximately
400,000 teachers andadministrators in California
(06:10):
public schools California publicschools.
And then I also have my ownlearning and organizational
improvement consultancy, mcjennaLearning, where I help
organizations both in businessand education.
As for my background, I've beenworking with adult performance
improvement for over 10 years.
Prior to that, I was a teacherfor eight years.
I have a doctorate in educationleadership with a focus in ed
(06:33):
psychology.
So how we learn and whatmotivates us, from the
University of SouthernCalifornia right on any Trojans
out there.
All that to say that I've donea lot of thinking and work on
helping people learn and betheir best selves in the
workplace, both in education andthe broader world of work.
So I put a lot of that thinkingand lessons into a book I wrote
(06:55):
called Upskill, reskill, thriveOptimizing Learning and
Development in the Workplace.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Excellent, Thank you for joining us.
So in today's episode we'reexploring the topic of learning,
both at the individual leveland the organizational level.
But before we dive into thattopic, can you tell us a bit
about how traditional methods ofcorporate learning might have
hindered the development of amore adaptive and proactive
workforce?
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Much like education.
A lot of the traditions oflearning in the workplace crease
back to an industrial model,one size fits all, one right way
of doing things.
It's what I call a center-outapproach.
So people far from where theactual work happens decide what
those workers need to know anddo and then coach out content
(07:42):
instructions, often withoutreally understanding the
individual needs and context ofthe people.
And so there's multipleproblems with that, as your
audience can likely identifyalready.
Multiple problems with that, asyour audience can likely
identify already.
First, a one-size-approachdoesn't really fit anyone
because we all learn andleverage learning differently.
(08:03):
Second, people far from thecenter, like the learning and
development department, theleadership, can't possibly
reduce content at the pacenecessary to contend with the
rate at which workers' needschange, because the world of
work changes too fast.
And finally, that center-routeapproach is one that says to
(08:24):
people learning is somethingdone to you rather than
something done by you, and itdemeans people's experiences and
their capabilities.
And you also miss out on a lotof good ideas by not engaging
the people you're supposed to besupporting.
Now, that's not to say thatyou're on a lot of really
(08:45):
dynamic people in the L&Dcommunity.
Even those people often have towork against an organizational
culture focused on legacybeliefs of what learning and
training look like.
And these beliefs and theseprocesses and systems are there
and it's hard to break thatinstitutional inertia.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
So the traditional model doesn't sound all that bad
for some types of learning, forexample compliance or corporate
values, where you do want someconsistency across the entire
organization, you want itstemming from one source.
Are those appropriate uses forthe traditional learning models?
Speaker 1 (09:23):
It's not to say that one area of content isn't
related to everybody'sexperience.
Everybody in the organizationshould know about what the
organization believes and whatits mission is Absolutely,
though there could be somecontextualization where you go
and say how does that show up inmy work?
What is my connection, what isthat sense-making between my
(09:45):
work in there, as well ascompliance, there's legally
obligated or morally obligatedthings that people need to do.
But if it's done in aone-size-fits-all way or one way
of learning that very importantthing, you might run into
problems, like if the entireorganization runs on a
computer-based model fordelivering learning, how does
(10:06):
that show up for people in thefield who may not have ready
access to devices?
They're using human, outdatedequipment.
I worked with a person whoworked at a large-scale
restaurant chain and thelearning device that was for
everybody was in the corner ofthe kitchen next to the oven,
and that's where everybody wassupposed to learn.
(10:27):
So who cares how good thecontent is?
That's not a conducive placefor everybody to learn what they
need to know.
So it's not to say that therearen't things that everybody
needs to know, but it doesn'tmean we all have to learn them
in the same way.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Okay, that makes perfect sense.
Now you talk about the factthat upskilling and reskilling
are keys to both individual andorganizational growth.
Can you explain to us what ismeant by those terms and how do
they overcome some of thosechallenges of traditional
corporate learning models?
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Upskilling is learning how to improve in the
work you currently do, Forexample, waitstaff at a
restaurant learning how to use anew point of sale system or new
approaches to customer service.
This helps them be moreeffective in their current jobs
as waitstaff.
Reskilling is learning how todo new jobs, so those same
servers cross-training in otherareas in the restaurant or
(11:21):
learning the necessary knowledgeand skills to move into a
managerial position would beexamples of reskilling.
Now, often upskilling isoffered out to everybody in a
position, whereas reskilling weselect who we get to do those
things and with that selectionbias sometimes we can run into
problems.
But growing talent internallyis a lot more cost effective
(11:44):
than trying to hire new talentas your needs shift and it also
boosts retention, because whenyou invest in the learning and
the growth of somebody, you'redemonstrating that value to
people.
We value you, we see potentialin you, we want you to grow and
we're showing them that this isan organization where they can
grow and succeed.
If there's no clear path forokay, how do I go beyond what
(12:08):
I'm doing now or, even better,what I'm doing, people are
likely to look elsewhere becausethey know the world is changing
.
I'll give you an example.
Let's say a lot of our valuefor managerial positions is
based on people's ability tocommunicate complex ideas, and
the way we look at that is howthey generate reports.
(12:29):
Okay, Seems valid, Except I'llgive you a very personal example
.
My dad is now retired.
He's an engineer.
He also has dyslexia.
I didn't know this until I wasin the service, but he would
write me letters and I'm like Ma, why does dad not know how to
spell very?
He's using two R's and whydoesn't it read like the way
(12:49):
that he talks?
Because his writing was muchmore simplistic.
And I asked my dad once when Iwas a kid.
I said what do you do for work?
He said I sit in meetings andpeople talk about machines that
they want to build and I sitthere with a sketch pad and a
pencil and at the end of themeeting I hold up the pen and
say you mean this?
And they say yes, and I gobuild it.
This guy has dozens of patents.
(13:11):
He's one of the key reasons whywe have what were chat.
Scanners are now scanningpeople's luggage in the airport
and spotting explosives andsaving people, and we might have
missed that if the organizationsaid okay, but I really want to
see how this person writes andhas this one right way of
showing them that this person issmart.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Now you also talk about the concept of employees
becoming expert learners.
Can you tell us a bit about thecharacteristics of an expert
learner, and how do those traitscontribute to an individual's
and organization's resilience inthe face of change?
Speaker 1 (13:46):
So expert learners it's not that they're experts
necessarily in everything theylearn.
They're experts at learning.
They're people who have thewill and skill to learn and
improve and to take ownership ofthat improvement.
They know how to learn, how todetermine what they need to
learn, where to get sources andsupport for that learning, and
(14:07):
they can make plans to furthertheir learning cycles and
monitor their progress towardsthose goals.
And finally, they take thatlearning and they get hard
things done.
So what's important?
To understand that expertlearning is a two-part function.
Part of it is the person'scapacity, them building that
skill, but also their context.
(14:27):
People will need access toresources, they'll need time to
learn, they'll need timelyfeedback that helps them monitor
their progress, they needsupport for applying their
learning and they're honestlygoing to need freedom to
experiment and fail small andinnovate.
So expert learning is really away of operating.
I can have all the will and theskill, but if the situation
(14:50):
does not let me for time,resources, psychological safety,
what have you then I can'toperate in that way.
So we have to set systems inplace and practices that develop
people's capacity, which may bechanging their preconceived
notions of what learning is andtheir responsibility for it with
shifting their paradigm notjust leadership or management,
(15:10):
but the individual learners'paradigms around learning and
ownership of learning and thencreating the conditions that
build that capacity and allowfor that operating to happen.
As I write in the book, learningis a survival skill.
It's a key driver for change.
Why do they have to learn?
To keep up?
What do they have to keep up to?
Because other people arelearning and changing things
(15:30):
right.
Even if your organization isn'tcommitted to learning, the
other ones are, your competitorsare, and you have to keep up
with that.
So it's not just the key tosurviving, but it's for thriving
.
People know where the problemsare.
They often have ideas on how tosolve them.
So if you can partner with yourpeople, give them the learning
(15:52):
support they need, give them thegrace and the space to try new
things and share those ideas andincentivize that sharing, they
can do the good work that theywant to do and everybody wins
Got it.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Okay.
So just make sure it's clearfor the audience.
We're not talking aboutbecoming experts in a particular
content area so much.
We're talking about becomingexperts in the learning process,
developing that growth mindset.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, it's the ultimate soft skill.
We think about things that areinterpersonal or transferable
between contexts.
Learning is applicable anywhere, right?
Being able to learn and ownyour own improvement is
applicable anywhere.
I call it the skill to closethe skills gap.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So in the process, of developing our expert learners.
Can you talk aboutpsychological safety?
What strategies can be used toensure the failures are seen as
learning opportunities ratherthan setbacks?
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Yeah, that's really important.
We talk about valuinginnovation, but show me 10
places where it's worked before.
That might be an early adopter,but that's not learning the new
thing.
So that's freedom forexperimentation, what Amy
Edmondson and Harvard callspsychological safety.
It's crucial.
That's how innovation happensand the folks at Google, for
(17:02):
example, have done plenty ofresearch and they found that the
number one driver of highperforming teams that adapt,
that innovate and get hardthings done is psychological
safety.
There's a lot of expertise in myteam, but if I don't feel safe
to say, hey, I've got a problem,then the problem doesn't get
solved, or I solve it, maybe notas optimally as I would If I
had the vulnerability and thesafety to go ask the other smart
(17:24):
people with whom I work to helpme with this problem or to
venture a new idea.
I know we've always done itthis way, but what if we tried
this other thing?
Could we run a small test onthis?
That takes safety to try thesethings.
Now there are several thingsfolks can do to promote that
safety.
The first one is giving peopleexplicit permission to try new
(17:56):
things.
I worked in special education.
I would have these wonderfulaides Often.
I'd get new ones every year.
We worked with differentteachers before.
Some of them would have a verydifferent idea around the idea
of taking initiatives, eventhough I thought it was obvious
sure they can try this new thingwe had to explicitly tell them.
And still now I have toexplicitly tell people you have
(18:18):
permission to try a new thing.
Let's give that a whirl,because even if you think it's
obvious, you're dealing withsort of the legacy of previous
managers, previous organizations, and you'll have to work to
unpack that and do away withthat.
One way you can do that is youcan model experimentation.
Hey, I'm going to try this.
Let me know how this goes.
(18:39):
Let's test this out.
How does this land for you?
And vulnerability.
I don't know how this is goingto go, but we're just going to
try this and let's see.
It's okay, let's just try that.
Modeling that experimentationand vulnerability is very
powerful because you, as theleader of a team or of an
organization, you're setting anexample.
It's one thing to say we valueexperimentation and
(19:00):
vulnerability.
It's another thing to showpeople.
Any parent knows that you cantell your kids a million things,
but they're watching all thetime.
I'm not trying to infantilizethe workers of the world.
But it's the same thing.
We get a lot from observation,not just what you explicitly say
right, and so openlycommunicate when there are
problems you're trying to solve,get people's input, share your
(19:21):
ideas, let those ideas go frommine to ours.
My idea becomes our solution,our innovation, and there's
safety and power together.
Maybe back to that concept ofself-efficacy.
I don't know how strong I am onthis, but I know if I work with
other smart, dynamic people,I'm more likely to get these
things done.
(19:42):
And you create norms aroundlearning and the value of
learning.
I do that in my house with myown kids.
We don't say win or lose.
We say win or learn, that evenwhen we fail, there's an
opportunity to learn.
Why did you lose thatvolleyball game?
Oh, we weren't talking to eachother, okay.
So what's the next thing we gotto do?
We've got to talk, We've got tocommunicate, we've got to
(20:03):
commit Okay, next game.
Now let's apply that.
And so I think really it'sabout that environment and the
safety you provide.
Now there are some things thatare absolutely certain that you
can't experiment with.
There are safety procedures andthings like that that you don't
want people iterating on thefly in a hospital.
You can give them safe spacesto experiment so they build the
(20:24):
confidence that once they gointo that real-life setting
they're going to get it rightevery time and people are going
to be safe.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
All right.
So the Universal Design forLearning, udl, is a possible
solution for inclusive,impactful learning within the
workforce.
Can you tell us what UDL is andhow might an organization begin
to implement its principles inits existing learning programs?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
So Universal Design for Learning UDL is a
research-based framework forsupporting expert learning in
any context.
It comes from a non-profit inMassachusetts called PAST and it
started as an effort to helpstudents with disabilities
achieve better academic outcomes, but over time they realized
all the research this isleveraged on is not based on how
(21:06):
kids learn or just kids withdisabilities.
This is how people learn andthat's how I came to it.
When I finished my doctorateprogram and I was asked to
develop a blended learningcourse on UDL, I looked at these
guidelines and principles.
I said it's all this research.
I have just spent all this timelearning fancy things like
information processing model andself-efficacy and what have you
(21:27):
.
But it's putting it into aworkable framework that is then
actionable, and the beauty of aframework is it's flexible.
So it's not a list of just todo all these things, but it's a
lens at which we look at thelearning environment in the
things that we're doing and whatcan we do about those barriers
and get them out of their way.
And so UDL takes those barriersand chunks them into three
(21:49):
principles based on the threecollection of neural networks in
the brains that are related tolearning.
First one is engagement.
Where would people havechallenges in becoming initially
engaged in the learning,sustaining that engagement when
the learning gets difficult andthey have to persist through
challenges?
And ultimately, how do they seetheir role in their improvement
(22:10):
or their lack of improvement?
You didn't learn.
Why is that?
What was your part in thatprocess?
It builds ownership, and sowhat could get in the way and
what could we do about it?
What are things that we can do?
How do we make it more relevant, authentic?
How do we provide feedback?
What are you that allows peopleto stay continuously and
authentically engaged inlearning?
(22:31):
The next one is representation.
How do people take in, processand make sense of information?
So one we make sure that it'ssomething that everybody can
take in.
So we think about is it toofast for some of our people?
Is it only in visual format?
And some of our folks willstruggle with that because of a
disability or audio?
(22:51):
What have you?
And then, does everybody havethe background information that
helps them make sense of this?
Are we making it authentic towhat they're doing?
Are we helping them reallyprocess what's coming at them?
And, ultimately, why don't weconnect it?
Why don't we help them see whatthe new content they're
learning is connected to whatthey already know and what they
want to do, because ultimatelythey have to put that learning
(23:13):
in action or they lose it.
Learning is done throughexperience and practice and it
only endures over time the morewe use and put that learning
into practice and reinforce it.
The third one is action andexpression.
First off, we make sure all thetools are accessible so that
people can interact with eachother and with the content we're
trying to give them.
And then we allow people thespace and options so that they
(23:37):
communicate authentically.
Back to my example of my dad andwriting.
What if I had to be writing,could use speech to text, or let
people demonstrate theproficiency around something.
Say, you're teaching a newconcept.
Are there ways besides this?
One way that people candemonstrate that they understand
the concept?
And finally and this is whereit really becomes helpful for
(23:58):
the world of work is thinkingabout the 50 terms.
Executive functions like gettinghard things done.
So how do you help people thinkabout their improvement, set
goals for themselves, createplans for how they're going to
improve, give them ways tomonitor their progress, shift
their plans as things change sothey can still get that hard
work of learning done, whichthose are skills then transfer
(24:20):
into work.
I have a task I need to do.
How do I break this down?
How do I think strategicallyabout the things I need to have
paired?
Who do I need to bring in toget this thing done?
What happens if these otherthings go wrong?
How are we going to shift andhow do I know that we've gotten
where we need to be or exceedingwhere we need to be?
And so that's what UDL is allbased around.
(24:41):
Is these three principlesPeople who know how to do these
things.
That's going to work in anyenvironment, whether it's in
education, if it's engineering,medical construction, what have
you so?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
what advice would you give to organizations who might
be hesitant to completelyoverhaul their learning and
development programs?
Speaker 1 (25:02):
First off, you don't necessarily have to completely
overhaul overnight.
I love the saying comes fromwhen I was in the Navy slow is
smooth is fast.
Small, incremental changes canbuild proficiency over time,
especially for an L&D department.
I don't want to blow up all ourprograms.
What are small changes?
You can think about the waythat you support people's
engagement, their ability toprocess and connect information
(25:27):
and their ability to show whatthey know, share what they know
and get hard things done.
What are small tweaks you canmake?
Ultimately, learning culturestarts at the top.
There's a great article that Ilove by and it's probably the
article I've shared with themost folks is by Melissa Deimler
in some Harvard Business Review.
It's called why Great EmployeesLeave quote unquote great
cultures, and she makes a greatpoint that not only does the
(25:47):
organization need to clearlystate what it believes and
values, but the leaders have tomodel and reinforce them.
Otherwise people think, yeah,you're full of it because you
say this, but that's not how youact.
The leaders not only the mostempowered, they're the most
visible to the bulk of theorganization.
Both leaders need to model andreinforce them, and then they
(26:07):
need to ensure that there aresystems and processes in place
that turn those beliefs andvalues into the way things are
done around here.
If we value learning, we haveto look at our systems and
processes and say are wecreating enough time for
learning?
Are we creating enough safespace for learning?
Are we incentivizing people toshare their learning?
(26:28):
So how is the way that we'reoperating supporting or
hindering learning?
And you can take that and putin what's called a learning
philosophy what learning meansto the organization?
It communicates to everybodythat we place explicit value on
learning, value tied toorganizational success.
Learning is not something wejust do because it's a thing we
(26:50):
have to do.
It helps us get better asindividuals, as teams and as an
organization.
The Marine Corps has one.
It's called the Marine CorpsDoctrinal Publication 7, or MCDP
7, learning, and it's a greatexample.
You can get it for free.
They can look it up anddownload it.
It says that, in short,learning is a strategic
advantage on the battlefield andit's every Marine's
(27:12):
responsibility, from the newestprivate to the commandant of the
Marine Corps, to learn andsupport the learning of their
fellow Marines.
Learning is something thatevery Marine does.
It also talks about howlearning happens and how people
create the right context forlearning and improvement, and
(27:32):
once you put that philosophy inplace, you can then reference.
Now we've said what we believe,and that facilitates that
examination of systems andprocesses.
Are we creating the rightsupports?
Do we incentivize the things weneed to do?
Are managers trained to beeffective coaches?
In other words, look at thelearning ecosystem and see how
it can be optimized to createand sustain expert learning in
(27:55):
line with your philosophy.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Now can you discuss the potential disconnect between
a leadership promoting alearning culture and employees'
actual time and resourcesavailable for learning, and how
can organizations realisticallyintegrate continuous learning
into their daily operations?
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Josh Burson in his center at Deloitte, did this
study on the modern learner, andwhen they surveyed thousands of
folks across industries, theysaid they had less than 1% of
time devoted to learning, andone that speaks to a
prioritization of learning, butalso speaks to people's
perception of where learninghappens.
I would think most of thesefolks are thinking, oh, when I
(28:34):
specifically went to training orwhen I specifically had to do
this e-learning module.
So it's important to understandwhere and when learning happens
.
In short, it's everywhere, allthe time.
Sure, learning happens intraining, or at least it should,
but it also happens in meetings, in impromptu conversations
between colleagues and in thedoing of the actual work.
(28:57):
It can happen anytime someoneruns into a problem they need to
solve, and the key is to createthe conditions that support
that learning, which includescommunicating the value
proposition for learning, what'sin it for me to learn and share
my learning with other people,instead of just doing things the
way I always do it, even if Ithink they don't work very well,
and make sure we have thepractices, processes and systems
(29:19):
in place that facilitatecontinuous learning and
improvement.
It's an ecosystem approach.
So, yes, you should havetraining, but you should also
think about your managers ascoaches.
You should think about how doyou best promote collaboration
and communication among yourpeople.
It's looking at your knowledgemanagement system and can people
find the things that they needin the moment that they need
(29:41):
them, which might save them fromsome disastrous experiments or
at least some redundancy, andallow them to do the things that
they want to do?
It's solving those problems andhaving them in place, rather
than relying on this idea thatlearning happens in this one
specific place or during thisset time and then, when learning
happens and performanceimproves, highlight that Show
(30:04):
how that happened.
This is what happened whenTravis and James talked about
this and shared it, and theybrought in these other folks.
Look at the good things thathappened and we're proud of
everybody, not just Travisbecause he had the good idea,
because if I feel like I have tohoard my ideas, then I'm the
only one that benefits from them, and so you show that, and then
the learners see the value oflearning, the managers see the
(30:26):
value of learning, and maybeyou're not the leader of the
organization, but if you can dothat within your team, then
culture can spread laterally andultimately upwards for people
to notice why are things inTravis's department going so
much differently?
What could we learn that wecould then start to scale across
the organization?
I like to say that work islearning and learning is work.
(30:48):
Learning happens everywhere,not just in training, but
happens best when it'sintentionally supported, it's
shared and it's transferred intoactual performance improvement.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
This was very enlightening.
Before we sign off, can youtell our listeners how they can
find you and your work?
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Third thing you can find me on LinkedIn at the
username DRJMcKenna Don'tconfuse me with the sleep expert
or the other James McKenna's onthere or on my website,
mckennalearningcom.
You can also find my book onAmazon, barnes Noble, and
directly from my publisher atcastorg, and I'd be happy to
connect with all of you.
(31:28):
Travis, thanks for having me on.
Thank you, this was a lot offun.
Awesome, same for me.
Thanks, travis.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Wow, that was a lot of information.
Well, we're almost out of time,so let's do a quick recap.
A learning culture is more thanjust something to be assigned
to an L&D department.
Critical components includeupskilling, reskilling,
universal design for learning,and psychological safety.
Upskilling refers to enhancingcurrent job skills, while
(31:59):
reskilling is about learning newskills for different roles,
both crucial for adapting tochanging work environments.
Udl is a framework thatsupports diverse learning needs
effectively, and psychologicalsafety is essential for
fostering an environment whereemployees feel safe to
experiment and learn fromfailures, thereby driving
(32:19):
innovation and growth.
Together, these elementscontribute to a resilient and
adaptive organizational culture.
But, as usual, the goal of thispodcast is to give you some of
these concepts, not just so youcan apply them verbatim this
(32:41):
week.
Think about how this week.
Think about what members ofyour team may benefit from
upskilling, and take the time todiscuss with them, get their
insights and opinions so thatyou can help them succeed in
their individual and unique ways.
You probably already know whichmember of your team would be
interested in learning a newskill or even changing their
field of work.
Try opening the dialogue withthem and make a plan.
(33:04):
This may just improve retentionrates, not just for your team
but for your company as a whole.
And lastly, spend some timeassessing how you can implement
UDL principles in your trainingprograms.
(33:26):
Encourage a culture ofpsychological safety where
everyone can share ideas freelyand learn from each other.
Whether you're leading a team orlooking to grow personally,
remember learning is acontinuous journey that drives
both personal and organizationalsuccess.
Act now, innovate your learningstrategies and build a
(33:47):
future-ready workforce.
So with that, thank you fortuning in to the Management
Theory Toolbox, your topdestination for the
behind-the-scenes of managementand business theory.
In our next episode, we'regoing to take inspiration from
Alice in Wonderland and continuefollowing the deep rabbit trail
(34:08):
of the topic of learning,opening a whole new angle with
significant theoretical andpractical implications for
managers and leaders.
In the meantime, keep learning,keep growing and keep building
your management theory toolbox.
I'd like to say that work is learning and learning is
work.
Learning happens everywhere,not just in training, but
happens best when it'sintentionally supported, it's
shared and it's transferred intoactual performance improvement.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome back to the Management Theory Toolbox, your
top destination for the behindthe scenes of the management and
business world.
Now, this isn't your typicalbusiness podcast.
Yes, there are plenty ofresources out there that will
give you specific tips andtricks to manage your employees
or create a strategic plan, buthere we believe that management
(00:43):
is too complex to be summarizedin a few tips and tricks.
At the Management TheoryToolbox, our mission is always
to go a layer deeper, uncoveringtheories and tools that you can
adapt to your unique situation,making you more effective than
trying to follow somecookie-cutter behaviors.
(01:03):
More effective than trying tofollow some cookie-cutter
behaviors.
Over the course of our journey,we've developed an analogy of
organizations as living humansystems and we've found that
organizations mirror many of thefeatures of the human brain.
While exploring that analogy,we realized in episode 9 that
(01:25):
organizations, like the humanbrain, have the remarkable
feature of being able to learnand adapt, both organically and
intentionally.
But that's only part of thestory.
The people that make up theorganization are also learning
and adapting.
Sometimes individuals learnfrom the organization, are also
learning and adapting.
Sometimes individuals learnfrom the organization and
(01:46):
sometimes the organizationlearns from the individuals,
creating this perpetualinterconnected dance between the
individual and organizationallearning.
In our last episode, we talkedwith Dr Ryan Smerek about
individual and organizationallearning at a high level,
discussing three metaphors forunderstanding individual
learning, as well as learning inan organization versus learning
(02:09):
by an organization.
Today, we're going to dive evendeeper into this topic and add
some new concepts andterminology to our toolbox.
One angle to this topic attemptsto directly grapple with a
space where individual andorganizational learning meet
together and interact, andthat's the concept of a learning
(02:33):
culture.
Typically, the idea of alearning culture is described
something like this Learningculture promotes continuous
development, adaptability,individual ownership of learning
, organizational support,learning from mistakes,
personalization, alignment withorganizational goals and a
(02:54):
mindset of curiosity andinnovation.
If you're like me, you've heardgeneric descriptions like this
a thousand times and personally,I've never really found them to
be all that helpful.
Thousand times, and personallyI've never really found them to
be all that helpful.
Sure, the overall idea of alearning culture makes sense.
We want to create anenvironment that promotes both
individual and organizationallearning and, yes, we want to
(03:15):
make sure our employees feelsafe in learning and failing as
they advance the envelope ofpossibilities for the
organization.
But I'm willing to bet that ifwe just stop there, most of us
will go into the office tomorrowand completely forget about the
concept, as more pressingconcerns such as a factory
defect, customer complaint or anemployee's performance issue
(03:37):
command our attention.
It seems there's no time todevelop a learning culture,
whatever that means.
So what's our solution?
We create a learning anddevelopment department which is
tasked with creating trainingfor employees, perhaps even
sometimes tasked with fosteringa learning culture.
(03:57):
Unfortunately, l&d teams usuallyhave neither the influence nor
the authority to truly create alearning culture, and providing
effective training while beingdisconnected from the actual
work of employees is not alwaysvery effective.
Recently, dr James McKenna ofthe California Collaborative for
Educational Excellence wrote aHarvard Business Review article
(04:20):
titled Build a Strong LearningCulture on your Team, in which
he summarizes the issues.
First, training is oftendeveloped too late and not kept
up to date with current needs.
Every learner is also unique,and the result is a
one-size-fits-none approach.
Training can impart knowledge,but often that doesn't produce
(04:44):
new skills which requirecoaching instead.
And finally, there seems to bethis cultural disconnect.
Leaders can say they valuelearning, but the reality is
workers actually perceive thatthey have less than 1% of their
time available for learning.
Dr McKenna offers some remedies,which we'll discuss.
(05:05):
These include upskilling,reskilling, becoming experts at
learning, not just experts inthe specific tasks or fields of
work as well as a frameworkcalled Universal Design for
Learning, or UDL, which wasdevised under the direction of
the neuropsychologist David Roseof the Harvard Graduate School
of Education and a co-founder,anne Meyer.
(05:26):
So let's dive in and explorethese topics.
But instead of me explainingeach of these, why don't we ask
Dr McKenna directly?
So let me introduce our guestfor today's episode, dr James
McKenna.
Hi, james, and welcome to theshow.
Hey, travis, thanks for havingme on.
Before we get started, go aheadand introduce yourself and tell
(05:46):
us a bit about your backgroundand your work.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Sure thing.
So I'm James McKenna and I'mthe Assistant Director of
Professional Learning andLeadership Development at the
California Collaborative forEducational Excellence, which I
admit is a mouthful.
Here I work with partnersacross the state to develop
professional learning resourcesand supports for approximately
400,000 teachers andadministrators in California
(06:10):
public schools California publicschools.
And then I also have my ownlearning and organizational
improvement consultancy, mcjennaLearning, where I help
organizations both in businessand education.
As for my background, I've beenworking with adult performance
improvement for over 10 years.
Prior to that, I was a teacherfor eight years.
I have a doctorate in educationleadership with a focus in ed
(06:33):
psychology.
So how we learn and whatmotivates us, from the
University of SouthernCalifornia right on any Trojans
out there.
All that to say that I've donea lot of thinking and work on
helping people learn and betheir best selves in the
workplace, both in education andthe broader world of work.
So I put a lot of that thinkingand lessons into a book I wrote
(06:55):
called Upskill, reskill, thriveOptimizing Learning and
Development in the Workplace.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Excellent, Thank you for joining us.
So in today's episode we'reexploring the topic of learning,
both at the individual leveland the organizational level.
But before we dive into thattopic, can you tell us a bit
about how traditional methods ofcorporate learning might have
hindered the development of amore adaptive and proactive
workforce?
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Much like education.
A lot of the traditions oflearning in the workplace crease
back to an industrial model,one size fits all, one right way
of doing things.
It's what I call a center-outapproach.
So people far from where theactual work happens decide what
those workers need to know anddo and then coach out content
(07:42):
instructions, often withoutreally understanding the
individual needs and context ofthe people.
And so there's multipleproblems with that, as your
audience can likely identifyalready.
Multiple problems with that, asyour audience can likely
identify already.
First, a one-size-approachdoesn't really fit anyone
because we all learn andleverage learning differently.
(08:03):
Second, people far from thecenter, like the learning and
development department, theleadership, can't possibly
reduce content at the pacenecessary to contend with the
rate at which workers' needschange, because the world of
work changes too fast.
And finally, that center-routeapproach is one that says to
(08:24):
people learning is somethingdone to you rather than
something done by you, and itdemeans people's experiences and
their capabilities.
And you also miss out on a lotof good ideas by not engaging
the people you're supposed to besupporting.
Now, that's not to say thatyou're on a lot of really
(08:45):
dynamic people in the L&Dcommunity.
Even those people often have towork against an organizational
culture focused on legacybeliefs of what learning and
training look like.
And these beliefs and theseprocesses and systems are there
and it's hard to break thatinstitutional inertia.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
So the traditional model doesn't sound all that bad
for some types of learning, forexample compliance or corporate
values, where you do want someconsistency across the entire
organization, you want itstemming from one source.
Are those appropriate uses forthe traditional learning models?
Speaker 1 (09:23):
It's not to say that one area of content isn't
related to everybody'sexperience.
Everybody in the organizationshould know about what the
organization believes and whatits mission is Absolutely,
though there could be somecontextualization where you go
and say how does that show up inmy work?
What is my connection, what isthat sense-making between my
(09:45):
work in there, as well ascompliance, there's legally
obligated or morally obligatedthings that people need to do.
But if it's done in aone-size-fits-all way or one way
of learning that very importantthing, you might run into
problems, like if the entireorganization runs on a
computer-based model fordelivering learning, how does
(10:06):
that show up for people in thefield who may not have ready
access to devices?
They're using human, outdatedequipment.
I worked with a person whoworked at a large-scale
restaurant chain and thelearning device that was for
everybody was in the corner ofthe kitchen next to the oven,
and that's where everybody wassupposed to learn.
(10:27):
So who cares how good thecontent is?
That's not a conducive placefor everybody to learn what they
need to know.
So it's not to say that therearen't things that everybody
needs to know, but it doesn'tmean we all have to learn them
in the same way.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Okay, that makes perfect sense.
Now you talk about the factthat upskilling and reskilling
are keys to both individual andorganizational growth.
Can you explain to us what ismeant by those terms and how do
they overcome some of thosechallenges of traditional
corporate learning models?
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Upskilling is learning how to improve in the
work you currently do, Forexample, waitstaff at a
restaurant learning how to use anew point of sale system or new
approaches to customer service.
This helps them be moreeffective in their current jobs
as waitstaff.
Reskilling is learning how todo new jobs, so those same
servers cross-training in otherareas in the restaurant or
(11:21):
learning the necessary knowledgeand skills to move into a
managerial position would beexamples of reskilling.
Now, often upskilling isoffered out to everybody in a
position, whereas reskilling weselect who we get to do those
things and with that selectionbias sometimes we can run into
problems.
But growing talent internallyis a lot more cost effective
(11:44):
than trying to hire new talentas your needs shift and it also
boosts retention, because whenyou invest in the learning and
the growth of somebody, you'redemonstrating that value to
people.
We value you, we see potentialin you, we want you to grow and
we're showing them that this isan organization where they can
grow and succeed.
If there's no clear path forokay, how do I go beyond what
(12:08):
I'm doing now or, even better,what I'm doing, people are
likely to look elsewhere becausethey know the world is changing
.
I'll give you an example.
Let's say a lot of our valuefor managerial positions is
based on people's ability tocommunicate complex ideas, and
the way we look at that is howthey generate reports.
(12:29):
Okay, Seems valid, Except I'llgive you a very personal example
.
My dad is now retired.
He's an engineer.
He also has dyslexia.
I didn't know this until I wasin the service, but he would
write me letters and I'm like Ma, why does dad not know how to
spell very?
He's using two R's and whydoesn't it read like the way
(12:49):
that he talks?
Because his writing was muchmore simplistic.
And I asked my dad once when Iwas a kid.
I said what do you do for work?
He said I sit in meetings andpeople talk about machines that
they want to build and I sitthere with a sketch pad and a
pencil and at the end of themeeting I hold up the pen and
say you mean this?
And they say yes, and I gobuild it.
This guy has dozens of patents.
(13:11):
He's one of the key reasons whywe have what were chat.
Scanners are now scanningpeople's luggage in the airport
and spotting explosives andsaving people, and we might have
missed that if the organizationsaid okay, but I really want to
see how this person writes andhas this one right way of
showing them that this person issmart.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Now you also talk about the concept of employees
becoming expert learners.
Can you tell us a bit about thecharacteristics of an expert
learner, and how do those traitscontribute to an individual's
and organization's resilience inthe face of change?
Speaker 1 (13:46):
So expert learners it's not that they're experts
necessarily in everything theylearn.
They're experts at learning.
They're people who have thewill and skill to learn and
improve and to take ownership ofthat improvement.
They know how to learn, how todetermine what they need to
learn, where to get sources andsupport for that learning, and
(14:07):
they can make plans to furthertheir learning cycles and
monitor their progress towardsthose goals.
And finally, they take thatlearning and they get hard
things done.
So what's important?
To understand that expertlearning is a two-part function.
Part of it is the person'scapacity, them building that
skill, but also their context.
(14:27):
People will need access toresources, they'll need time to
learn, they'll need timelyfeedback that helps them monitor
their progress, they needsupport for applying their
learning and they're honestlygoing to need freedom to
experiment and fail small andinnovate.
So expert learning is really away of operating.
I can have all the will and theskill, but if the situation
(14:50):
does not let me for time,resources, psychological safety,
what have you then I can'toperate in that way.
So we have to set systems inplace and practices that develop
people's capacity, which may bechanging their preconceived
notions of what learning is andtheir responsibility for it with
shifting their paradigm notjust leadership or management,
(15:10):
but the individual learners'paradigms around learning and
ownership of learning and thencreating the conditions that
build that capacity and allowfor that operating to happen.
As I write in the book, learningis a survival skill.
It's a key driver for change.
Why do they have to learn?
To keep up?
What do they have to keep up to?
Because other people arelearning and changing things
(15:30):
right.
Even if your organization isn'tcommitted to learning, the
other ones are, your competitorsare, and you have to keep up
with that.
So it's not just the key tosurviving, but it's for thriving
.
People know where the problemsare.
They often have ideas on how tosolve them.
So if you can partner with yourpeople, give them the learning
(15:52):
support they need, give them thegrace and the space to try new
things and share those ideas andincentivize that sharing, they
can do the good work that theywant to do and everybody wins
Got it.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Okay.
So just make sure it's clearfor the audience.
We're not talking aboutbecoming experts in a particular
content area so much.
We're talking about becomingexperts in the learning process,
developing that growth mindset.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, it's the ultimate soft skill.
We think about things that areinterpersonal or transferable
between contexts.
Learning is applicable anywhere, right?
Being able to learn and ownyour own improvement is
applicable anywhere.
I call it the skill to closethe skills gap.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
So in the process, of developing our expert learners.
Can you talk aboutpsychological safety?
What strategies can be used toensure the failures are seen as
learning opportunities ratherthan setbacks?
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Yeah, that's really important.
We talk about valuinginnovation, but show me 10
places where it's worked before.
That might be an early adopter,but that's not learning the new
thing.
So that's freedom forexperimentation, what Amy
Edmondson and Harvard callspsychological safety.
It's crucial.
That's how innovation happensand the folks at Google, for
(17:02):
example, have done plenty ofresearch and they found that the
number one driver of highperforming teams that adapt,
that innovate and get hardthings done is psychological
safety.
There's a lot of expertise in myteam, but if I don't feel safe
to say, hey, I've got a problem,then the problem doesn't get
solved, or I solve it, maybe notas optimally as I would If I
had the vulnerability and thesafety to go ask the other smart
(17:24):
people with whom I work to helpme with this problem or to
venture a new idea.
I know we've always done itthis way, but what if we tried
this other thing?
Could we run a small test onthis?
That takes safety to try thesethings.
Now there are several thingsfolks can do to promote that
safety.
The first one is giving peopleexplicit permission to try new
(17:56):
things.
I worked in special education.
I would have these wonderfulaides Often.
I'd get new ones every year.
We worked with differentteachers before.
Some of them would have a verydifferent idea around the idea
of taking initiatives, eventhough I thought it was obvious
sure they can try this new thingwe had to explicitly tell them.
And still now I have toexplicitly tell people you have
(18:18):
permission to try a new thing.
Let's give that a whirl,because even if you think it's
obvious, you're dealing withsort of the legacy of previous
managers, previous organizations, and you'll have to work to
unpack that and do away withthat.
One way you can do that is youcan model experimentation.
Hey, I'm going to try this.
Let me know how this goes.
(18:39):
Let's test this out.
How does this land for you?
And vulnerability.
I don't know how this is goingto go, but we're just going to
try this and let's see.
It's okay, let's just try that.
Modeling that experimentationand vulnerability is very
powerful because you, as theleader of a team or of an
organization, you're setting anexample.
It's one thing to say we valueexperimentation and
(19:00):
vulnerability.
It's another thing to showpeople.
Any parent knows that you cantell your kids a million things,
but they're watching all thetime.
I'm not trying to infantilizethe workers of the world.
But it's the same thing.
We get a lot from observation,not just what you explicitly say
right, and so openlycommunicate when there are
problems you're trying to solve,get people's input, share your
(19:21):
ideas, let those ideas go frommine to ours.
My idea becomes our solution,our innovation, and there's
safety and power together.
Maybe back to that concept ofself-efficacy.
I don't know how strong I am onthis, but I know if I work with
other smart, dynamic people,I'm more likely to get these
things done.
(19:42):
And you create norms aroundlearning and the value of
learning.
I do that in my house with myown kids.
We don't say win or lose.
We say win or learn, that evenwhen we fail, there's an
opportunity to learn.
Why did you lose thatvolleyball game?
Oh, we weren't talking to eachother, okay.
So what's the next thing we gotto do?
We've got to talk, We've got tocommunicate, we've got to
(20:03):
commit Okay, next game.
Now let's apply that.
And so I think really it'sabout that environment and the
safety you provide.
Now there are some things thatare absolutely certain that you
can't experiment with.
There are safety procedures andthings like that that you don't
want people iterating on thefly in a hospital.
You can give them safe spacesto experiment so they build the
(20:24):
confidence that once they gointo that real-life setting
they're going to get it rightevery time and people are going
to be safe.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
All right.
So the Universal Design forLearning, udl, is a possible
solution for inclusive,impactful learning within the
workforce.
Can you tell us what UDL is andhow might an organization begin
to implement its principles inits existing learning programs?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
So Universal Design for Learning UDL is a
research-based framework forsupporting expert learning in
any context.
It comes from a non-profit inMassachusetts called PAST and it
started as an effort to helpstudents with disabilities
achieve better academic outcomes, but over time they realized
all the research this isleveraged on is not based on how
(21:06):
kids learn or just kids withdisabilities.
This is how people learn andthat's how I came to it.
When I finished my doctorateprogram and I was asked to
develop a blended learningcourse on UDL, I looked at these
guidelines and principles.
I said it's all this research.
I have just spent all this timelearning fancy things like
information processing model andself-efficacy and what have you
(21:27):
.
But it's putting it into aworkable framework that is then
actionable, and the beauty of aframework is it's flexible.
So it's not a list of just todo all these things, but it's a
lens at which we look at thelearning environment in the
things that we're doing and whatcan we do about those barriers
and get them out of their way.
And so UDL takes those barriersand chunks them into three
(21:49):
principles based on the threecollection of neural networks in
the brains that are related tolearning.
First one is engagement.
Where would people havechallenges in becoming initially
engaged in the learning,sustaining that engagement when
the learning gets difficult andthey have to persist through
challenges?
And ultimately, how do they seetheir role in their improvement
(22:10):
or their lack of improvement?
You didn't learn.
Why is that?
What was your part in thatprocess?
It builds ownership, and sowhat could get in the way and
what could we do about it?
What are things that we can do?
How do we make it more relevant, authentic?
How do we provide feedback?
What are you that allows peopleto stay continuously and
authentically engaged inlearning?
(22:31):
The next one is representation.
How do people take in, processand make sense of information?
So one we make sure that it'ssomething that everybody can
take in.
So we think about is it toofast for some of our people?
Is it only in visual format?
And some of our folks willstruggle with that because of a
disability or audio?
(22:51):
What have you?
And then, does everybody havethe background information that
helps them make sense of this?
Are we making it authentic towhat they're doing?
Are we helping them reallyprocess what's coming at them?
And, ultimately, why don't weconnect it?
Why don't we help them see whatthe new content they're
learning is connected to whatthey already know and what they
want to do, because ultimatelythey have to put that learning
(23:13):
in action or they lose it.
Learning is done throughexperience and practice and it
only endures over time the morewe use and put that learning
into practice and reinforce it.
The third one is action andexpression.
First off, we make sure all thetools are accessible so that
people can interact with eachother and with the content we're
trying to give them.
And then we allow people thespace and options so that they
(23:37):
communicate authentically.
Back to my example of my dad andwriting.
What if I had to be writing,could use speech to text, or let
people demonstrate theproficiency around something.
Say, you're teaching a newconcept.
Are there ways besides this?
One way that people candemonstrate that they understand
the concept?
And finally and this is whereit really becomes helpful for
(23:58):
the world of work is thinkingabout the 50 terms.
Executive functions like gettinghard things done.
So how do you help people thinkabout their improvement, set
goals for themselves, createplans for how they're going to
improve, give them ways tomonitor their progress, shift
their plans as things change sothey can still get that hard
work of learning done, whichthose are skills then transfer
(24:20):
into work.
I have a task I need to do.
How do I break this down?
How do I think strategicallyabout the things I need to have
paired?
Who do I need to bring in toget this thing done?
What happens if these otherthings go wrong?
How are we going to shift andhow do I know that we've gotten
where we need to be or exceedingwhere we need to be?
And so that's what UDL is allbased around.
(24:41):
Is these three principlesPeople who know how to do these
things.
That's going to work in anyenvironment, whether it's in
education, if it's engineering,medical construction, what have
you so?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
what advice would you give to organizations who might
be hesitant to completelyoverhaul their learning and
development programs?
Speaker 1 (25:02):
First off, you don't necessarily have to completely
overhaul overnight.
I love the saying comes fromwhen I was in the Navy slow is
smooth is fast.
Small, incremental changes canbuild proficiency over time,
especially for an L&D department.
I don't want to blow up all ourprograms.
What are small changes?
You can think about the waythat you support people's
engagement, their ability toprocess and connect information
(25:27):
and their ability to show whatthey know, share what they know
and get hard things done.
What are small tweaks you canmake?
Ultimately, learning culturestarts at the top.
There's a great article that Ilove by and it's probably the
article I've shared with themost folks is by Melissa Deimler
in some Harvard Business Review.
It's called why Great EmployeesLeave quote unquote great
cultures, and she makes a greatpoint that not only does the
(25:47):
organization need to clearlystate what it believes and
values, but the leaders have tomodel and reinforce them.
Otherwise people think, yeah,you're full of it because you
say this, but that's not how youact.
The leaders not only the mostempowered, they're the most
visible to the bulk of theorganization.
Both leaders need to model andreinforce them, and then they
(26:07):
need to ensure that there aresystems and processes in place
that turn those beliefs andvalues into the way things are
done around here.
If we value learning, we haveto look at our systems and
processes and say are wecreating enough time for
learning?
Are we creating enough safespace for learning?
Are we incentivizing people toshare their learning?
(26:28):
So how is the way that we'reoperating supporting or
hindering learning?
And you can take that and putin what's called a learning
philosophy what learning meansto the organization?
It communicates to everybodythat we place explicit value on
learning, value tied toorganizational success.
Learning is not something wejust do because it's a thing we
(26:50):
have to do.
It helps us get better asindividuals, as teams and as an
organization.
The Marine Corps has one.
It's called the Marine CorpsDoctrinal Publication 7, or MCDP
7, learning, and it's a greatexample.
You can get it for free.
They can look it up anddownload it.
It says that, in short,learning is a strategic
advantage on the battlefield andit's every Marine's
(27:12):
responsibility, from the newestprivate to the commandant of the
Marine Corps, to learn andsupport the learning of their
fellow Marines.
Learning is something thatevery Marine does.
It also talks about howlearning happens and how people
create the right context forlearning and improvement, and
(27:32):
once you put that philosophy inplace, you can then reference.
Now we've said what we believe,and that facilitates that
examination of systems andprocesses.
Are we creating the rightsupports?
Do we incentivize the things weneed to do?
Are managers trained to beeffective coaches?
In other words, look at thelearning ecosystem and see how
it can be optimized to createand sustain expert learning in
(27:55):
line with your philosophy.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Now can you discuss the potential disconnect between
a leadership promoting alearning culture and employees'
actual time and resourcesavailable for learning, and how
can organizations realisticallyintegrate continuous learning
into their daily operations?
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Josh Burson in his center at Deloitte, did this
study on the modern learner, andwhen they surveyed thousands of
folks across industries, theysaid they had less than 1% of
time devoted to learning, andone that speaks to a
prioritization of learning, butalso speaks to people's
perception of where learninghappens.
I would think most of thesefolks are thinking, oh, when I
(28:34):
specifically went to training orwhen I specifically had to do
this e-learning module.
So it's important to understandwhere and when learning happens
.
In short, it's everywhere, allthe time.
Sure, learning happens intraining, or at least it should,
but it also happens in meetings, in impromptu conversations
between colleagues and in thedoing of the actual work.
(28:57):
It can happen anytime someoneruns into a problem they need to
solve, and the key is to createthe conditions that support
that learning, which includescommunicating the value
proposition for learning, what'sin it for me to learn and share
my learning with other people,instead of just doing things the
way I always do it, even if Ithink they don't work very well,
and make sure we have thepractices, processes and systems
(29:19):
in place that facilitatecontinuous learning and
improvement.
It's an ecosystem approach.
So, yes, you should havetraining, but you should also
think about your managers ascoaches.
You should think about how doyou best promote collaboration
and communication among yourpeople.
It's looking at your knowledgemanagement system and can people
find the things that they needin the moment that they need
(29:41):
them, which might save them fromsome disastrous experiments or
at least some redundancy, andallow them to do the things that
they want to do?
It's solving those problems andhaving them in place, rather
than relying on this idea thatlearning happens in this one
specific place or during thisset time and then, when learning
happens and performanceimproves, highlight that Show
(30:04):
how that happened.
This is what happened whenTravis and James talked about
this and shared it, and theybrought in these other folks.
Look at the good things thathappened and we're proud of
everybody, not just Travisbecause he had the good idea,
because if I feel like I have tohoard my ideas, then I'm the
only one that benefits from them, and so you show that, and then
the learners see the value oflearning, the managers see the
(30:26):
value of learning, and maybeyou're not the leader of the
organization, but if you can dothat within your team, then
culture can spread laterally andultimately upwards for people
to notice why are things inTravis's department going so
much differently?
What could we learn that wecould then start to scale across
the organization?
I like to say that work islearning and learning is work.
(30:48):
Learning happens everywhere,not just in training, but
happens best when it'sintentionally supported, it's
shared and it's transferred intoactual performance improvement.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
This was very enlightening.
Before we sign off, can youtell our listeners how they can
find you and your work?
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Third thing you can find me on LinkedIn at the
username DRJMcKenna Don'tconfuse me with the sleep expert
or the other James McKenna's onthere or on my website,
mckennalearningcom.
You can also find my book onAmazon, barnes Noble, and
directly from my publisher atcastorg, and I'd be happy to
connect with all of you.
(31:28):
Travis, thanks for having me on.
Thank you, this was a lot offun.
Awesome, same for me.
Thanks, travis.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Wow, that was a lot of information.
Well, we're almost out of time,so let's do a quick recap.
A learning culture is more thanjust something to be assigned
to an L&D department.
Critical components includeupskilling, reskilling,
universal design for learning,and psychological safety.
Upskilling refers to enhancingcurrent job skills, while
(31:59):
reskilling is about learning newskills for different roles,
both crucial for adapting tochanging work environments.
Udl is a framework thatsupports diverse learning needs
effectively, and psychologicalsafety is essential for
fostering an environment whereemployees feel safe to
experiment and learn fromfailures, thereby driving
(32:19):
innovation and growth.
Together, these elementscontribute to a resilient and
adaptive organizational culture.
But, as usual, the goal of thispodcast is to give you some of
these concepts, not just so youcan apply them verbatim this
(32:41):
week.
Think about how this week.
Think about what members ofyour team may benefit from
upskilling, and take the time todiscuss with them, get their
insights and opinions so thatyou can help them succeed in
their individual and unique ways.
You probably already know whichmember of your team would be
interested in learning a newskill or even changing their
field of work.
Try opening the dialogue withthem and make a plan.
(33:04):
This may just improve retentionrates, not just for your team
but for your company as a whole.
And lastly, spend some timeassessing how you can implement
UDL principles in your trainingprograms.
(33:26):
Encourage a culture ofpsychological safety where
everyone can share ideas freelyand learn from each other.
Whether you're leading a team orlooking to grow personally,
remember learning is acontinuous journey that drives
both personal and organizationalsuccess.
Act now, innovate your learningstrategies and build a
(33:47):
future-ready workforce.
So with that, thank you fortuning in to the Management
Theory Toolbox, your topdestination for the
behind-the-scenes of managementand business theory.
In our next episode, we'regoing to take inspiration from
Alice in Wonderland and continuefollowing the deep rabbit trail
(34:08):
of the topic of learning,opening a whole new angle with
significant theoretical andpractical implications for
managers and leaders.
In the meantime, keep learning,keep growing and keep building
your management theory toolbox.
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