Episode 12: Carrots and Sticks 2.0 with Dr. Richard (Dick) Malott

Key Points:

• Operant Conditioning and Behavior:
  • Explore the basics of operant conditioning and its relevance to management.
  • Discussion of Jeremy Bentham's Panopticon and its implications for behavior management.
  • The role of observation in influencing behavior.
  • Distinction between direct and indirect acting contingencies.
• Interview with Dr. Dick Malott:
  • Background and work of Dr. Malott in behavior analysis.
  • Consistency of operant conditioning principles across different groups (rats, students, managers, children with autism).
  • Explanation of behavioral contingencies and categories (unlearned/learned rewards and aversive conditions).
  • The importance of rule-governed behavior and rules that are easy to follow.
• Behavioral Management in Organizations:
  • Effective implementation of behavior management strategies in the workplace.
  • Importance of easy-to-follow rules with immediate, significant, and likely outcomes.
  • Examples of effective performance management in educational and organizational settings.
  • Challenges in implementing and maintaining behavior management systems.
• Practical Takeaways:
  • Reflect on feedback mechanisms in your workplace.
  • Redesign processes to make rules clearer and feedback more immediate.

Relevant Articles:

1. Greer, C. R., Lusch, R. F., & Hitt, M. A. (2017). "A Service Perspective for Human Capital Resources: A Critical Base for Strategy Implementation," Academy of Management Perspectives, 31: 137-158.
2. Podsakoff, P. M., Bommer, W. H., Podsakoff, N. P., & MacKenzie, S. B. (2006). "Relationships Between Leader Reward Behavior and Punishment Behavior and Subordinate Attitudes, Perceptions, and Behaviors: A Meta-Analytic Review of Existing and New Research," Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes, 99: 113-142.
3. Trevino, L. K. (1992). "The Social Effects of Punishment in Organizations: A Justice Perspective," Academy of Management Review, 17: 647-676.
4. Molenmaker, W. E., Kwaadsteniet, E. W., & van Dyjk, E. (2016). "The Impact of Personal Responsibility on the (Un)Willingness to Punish Non-Cooperation and Reward Cooperation," Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes, 134: 1-15.
5. Podsakoff, P. M., & Mackenzie, S. B. (1997). "Impact of Organizational Citizenship Behavior on Organizational Performance: A Review and Suggestions for Future Research," Human Performance, 10(2): 133-151.

Link to Dr. Dick Malott's Book:

• Principles of Behavior

Next Episode Teaser:

• Stay tuned for our next episode, where we explore blame and punishment in the context of organizational learning. In the meantime, keep learning, keep growing, and keep adding to your management theory toolbox!

Dr. Richard Malott [Guest], with more than 40 years of experience at Western Michigan University, has used the principles of behavior to construct teaching models and behavioral systems that have been sustained over several decades. As a result, he has taught generations of students to use behavior analysis in their everyday lives as learners, teachers, practitioners, and citizens, and has provided the training grounds for many of the field's leaders in behavioral systems design. Richard Malott is a prolific, creative, and engaging writer who has authored some of the field's most important and widely read publications, including Elementary Principles of Behavior (first with Donald Whaley and then with

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Performance management is to provide rules
that are easy to follow and notjust pep talks.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome back to the Management Theory Toolbox.
I'm your host, Travis Mallett,and I'm thrilled to have you
join me on this journey ofcontinuous learning and growth
as we navigate the dynamic worldof management.
Now, this isn't your typicalmanagement podcast.
Typical management podcast.
Yes, there are plenty ofresources out there that will

(00:27):
give you the ABCs of how to runa meeting, hire someone or even
how to fake a sick day withoutgetting caught, but here we like
to talk about thebehind-the-scenes topics, those
concepts and ideas whichtranscend specific management
practices, rather than simplyrestate them.
We aren't going to give youspecific tips and tricks for
becoming an effective manager.
Here at the Management TheoryToolbox, we're interested in the

(00:51):
why behind it, all thediscoveries of behavioral
science, psychology, businessand economics that will open our
eyes to what's happening behindthe scenes.
We started in episode one bycoming to an understanding of
organizations as living humansystems, an idea which continues
to fuel our exploration intoorganizational behavior.
And our first major topic oforganizational behavior is

(01:13):
learning, part of which is thisidea of operant conditioning we
stumbled upon in episode 11.
Operant conditioning is more orless the fancy psychology term
for carrots and sticks.
Of course, it's much morecomplicated than that.
So my listeners in psychologyand IOP just cringed.
But don't worry, we're going toopen the door to some of these

(01:36):
complexities in this episode.
In essence, operantconditioning is about what
happens around us influenceswhat we do.
For example, if our behaviorproduces a good outcome, operant
conditioning usually predictsthat we will tend to exhibit
more of that behavior.
That's the proverbial carrot.
On the other hand, if ouractions produce a punishing
outcome, it's predicted thatwe'll engage in that activity

(01:58):
less often.
But as we saw in episode 11,there are some interesting cases
where operant conditioningfails entirely to account for
the sometimes surprising humanbehaviors.
How powerful is operantconditioning?
To find out, let's visit theideas of English philosopher and
social theorist Jeremy Benthamin the 18th century.
A philosopher, Are we in foranother philosophical tangent?

(02:21):
Well, actually we're going tobe talking about architecture.
Oh wait, yes, yes, this isdefinitely a philosophical
tangent.
So here we go.
Who guards the guards?
This question of accountabilityand control stemming from
ancient Rome plagued the mind ofJeremy Bentham, an English

(02:43):
philosopher and social theorist.
Bentham pondered deeply overthis dilemma, seeking a solution
that could apply to variousinstitutions, from prisons to
schools and beyond.
The answer, he believed, lay inthe power of observation.
Bentham hypothesized that thepotential for observation could

(03:04):
be used to influence behavior.
If individuals believed theywere always being watched, they
would regulate their actionsaccordingly, and this led to his
revolutionary design of thepanopticon, a circular prison
with a central watchtower.
Inmates in the surroundingcells could never be certain

(03:24):
when they were being observed,compelling them to act as if
they were always under scrutiny.
Despite the elegance of hissolution, Bentham's ideas did
not gain traction.
During his lifetime, However,Bentham's concepts were not
forgotten.
In 1812, the British governmentfaced persistent problems with
Newgate Prison and other Londonprisons.

(03:46):
This prompted them to fund theconstruction of a new prison in
Millbank based on Bentham'sPanopticon plans.
Millbank Prison, which openedin 1821, became a pioneering
model for a further 54 prisonsbuilt in Victorian Britain.
The Panopticon proved soeffective that it left a lasting
impact on the philosophy ofsocial control and management.

(04:09):
In 1965, historian ShirleyRobin Lettlin argued that the
panopticon was a device of suchmonstrous efficacy that it left
no room for humanity.
Bentham's panopticon served notonly as a practical solution to
the management of prisons, butalso as a profound illustration

(04:29):
of operant conditioning andbehavioral contingencies the
observation of prisoners byguards and the observation of
guards and prison administratorsby the public created a system
of mutual accountability.
This layered surveillanceseemed a solid answer to the
age-old question who guards theguards?

(04:51):
The legacy of Bentham'spanopticon extends beyond its
physical architecture.
It demonstrates the power ofindirect contingencies and the
subtle ways in which potentialobservation can influence
behavior.
Bentham's vision, thoughinitially overlooked, ultimately
provided a powerful frameworkfor understanding and managing
human actions withininstitutional settings.

(05:13):
So clearly, operantconditioning is more complicated
than simple reward, punishment,carrot and stick paradigms.
But some immediate questionsinclude well, what counts as a
reward?
What if a behavior causes theremoval of a good thing, but
isn't strictly the imposition ofa negative consequence?
What about direct versusindirect acting contingencies?

(05:35):
Well, there's a lot to sortthrough.
So we're going to need somehelp, and here to guide our
exploration is Dr Dick Malott,Professor Emeritus of Psychology
at Western Michigan University.
Hi, Dick, and welcome to theshow.
I'm really excited to talk toyou today.
Before we get started, go aheadand tell us a bit about your
background and your work.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
So I'm Dick Malott.
I'm a Professor Emeritus ofPsychology in the Behavior
Analysis program at WesternMichigan University.
I've been inspired by BFSkinner and his Skinner box.
He had a box, as most of youmay know.
Put a rat in the box, the ratwould press a lever to get a cup
of water or a pellet of food.

(06:18):
So I started working with ratsin Skinner boxes.
I progressed to pigeons andSkinner boxes.
I progressed from there tocollege students in classrooms,
then grad students in classrooms, then organizational managers,
business managers, and fromthere to children with autism.
My general areas of teachingand of interest have been

(06:42):
organizational behaviormanagement, behavior system
analysis and autism.
So I'm really happy to bechatting with you.

Speaker 2 (06:51):
Great Thank you.
Before we actually dive intothe material, I'm curious.
You talked about starting withthe rats, moving on to college
students, graduate students andso forth.
How much consistency in operantconditioning principles have
you found across those variousgroups?

Speaker 1 (07:06):
Well, I'll talk about that a little bit.
My notion is that the sameprinciples of behavior apply all
the way for all those groups.
The major difference islanguage.
Lower organisms do not havelanguage.
Many autistic children do nothave language, and that's the

(07:27):
big game changer.
I think that Skinner'sprinciples from the Skinner box
apply across the board.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Now, in your textbook Principles of Behavior, which
I'll link to in the show notesfor our listeners, you talk a
lot about different categoriesof behavioral contingencies.
Could you walk us through someof those categories?

Speaker 1 (08:01):
afterwards he has food.
For a contingency to be directacting or to reinforce or reward
the behavior of Rudolph the rator any of us, it must occur
within 60 seconds.
He presses the lever and heneeds to get that food within 60
seconds, otherwise if the foodcomes two minutes later, it'll
reinforce some other behavior.
If the contingencies aregreater than 60 seconds, those

(08:22):
are indirect actingcontingencies.
So we have direct acting andindirect acting.
Now Skinner talks aboutreinforcement and had a tendency
to create terminology that wasvery precise that no layperson
understood, and I preferterminology that's not quite as
precise but everybodyunderstands.
So I'll try to use the termreward instead of reinforcers.

(08:45):
There are two basiccontingencies One involves
rewards and one involvespunishers or aversive conditions
, and of each of those there aretwo types.
There's unlearned rewards andlearned rewards and unlearned
aversive conditions.
Unlearned aversive conditions,for example, unlearned rewards
would include food, water, sex,appropriate temperatures.

(09:08):
Learned rewards might be thegrade of A on a course, a smile,
a nod, the expression hey, goodjob.
Smile and nod the expressionhey, good job.
Aversive conditions unlearnedcould be too much heat, too much
cold, too much pressure, pain,bad taste, bad smells.
Learned aversive conditionsmight be sloppy job, worst job

(09:30):
I've ever seen.
Those are learned aversiveconditions.
They are effective essentiallyfor all animals, as we were
talking earlier.
And then we have avoidance ofaversive conditions.
Escape is when an aversivecondition occurs and you make a
response to escape that aversivecondition.

(09:52):
So Rudolph, the rat in thescanner box is getting shocked.
He presses the lever and thatturns off the shock.
He escaped the shock.
Someone's saying stuff to you.
You don't like.
You leave the room.
Those are all escapecontingencies.
There are also indirect actingcontingencies and these are the

(10:15):
most relevant to the workplace.
While we don't think aboutdirect acting contingencies,
when they occur we itch and wescratch.
That's a direct actingcontingency.
We don't think about it.
But in direct actingcontingencies we almost always
think about them and theyinvolve what we call

(10:35):
rule-governed behavior.
A rule is simply a descriptionof the contingency.
If you do this, you don't havesomething.
You do this, you get it.
And the rule may describe arewarding contingency.
You ain't got no food.
You do this, you got food.
It may describe an escapecontingency.
Rule is too hot.

(10:55):
I'll push that button overthere and it'll cool down.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
Okay, so we have all these contingencies and in your
book you talk about these asrules, kind of like Boolean
logic for my listeners who arein scientific fields If this
behavior, then this consequenceand so forth, can you talk a
little bit about thesecontingencies as rules and what
are some implications forpractice?

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Behavioral contingencies are the
fundamental basis of behavioranalysis, which is what we're
talking about.
So there are two kinds of rules.
There are rules that are easyto follow and rules that are
hard to follow.
And the easy to follow rulesare rules that specify
immediateable and probableoutcomes.
If you touch that hot grill,you will immediately receive the

(11:43):
painful burn and it's sizable.
It's definitely going to happen.
That's a rule that's very easyto follow.
Rules that are hard to followspecify improbable outcomes, and
one of the most common arehighway safety rules.
Wear your seat belt, becauseyou might get in an accident.

(12:04):
Wear your safety equipment atwork.
Put that helmet on or you mightget hurt.
The problem with those arethey're improbable.
You don't need to wear yourseat belt.
You're not going to get hurt.
The odds are really low.
I've been working here for twoyears and I've never seen anyone
get hit on the head when theydidn't have their helmet on.

(12:24):
The other kind of rule that'shard to follow is those that
have small but cumulativelysignificant consequences to your
health and also the health ofyour equipment.
People have a really hard timedieting.
Man, I could just have onecandy bar, it ain't gonna matter
.
Oh, okay, one more.
I'm gonna just have regularmeal, but tonight I'm gonna

(12:46):
celebrate, and then a littlecelebration after that or a huge
dinner.
I'm gonna start my diet in acouple days.
It's gonna be okay.
And we just procrastinate.
Procrastinate on our diet,exercise the same thing.
I don't feel like exercisingtoday, I'll do it tomorrow.
Those are rules that are hardto follow, as we can see looking

(13:06):
around at our population.
The other area is long-rangeprojects.
I'm going to start it when Iget around to it.
It's a problem I'm havingsomewhat with my book.
It's a problem I have everytime I'm trying to write
something In the workplace.
If you've got a project to writeup and it's going to be a lot
of work or analysis to do, it'sgoing to be a lot of work you
can always start it tomorrow,and at the university we have

(13:30):
really bright doctoral studentswho get all their coursework
finished.
They may even get all theirresearch done and then they have
to write up a darn dissertation.
Quite a few of them just neverget around to it or never get it
finished.
They could, but they can starttomorrow.
In the area of organizationalbehavior management, we provide

(13:51):
behavioral contingencies thatare described by rules that are
easy to follow.
We use organizational behaviormanagement in organizations
where performance can beimproved.
So we add rules for deadlinesfor long-range tasks and
projects, and what I did with mydoctoral students was break the

(14:12):
long-range project into weeklysub-goals, and that's what I'm
going to have to do with myselffor my book, I just realized as
I'm talking to you about this.
So every week I have a sub-goalto accomplish and they may
still procrastinate on it.
They may spend all night beforeour meeting that week on Friday
, but it ain't, like you,procrastinated for a year.

(14:33):
Performance management is toprovide rules that are easy to
follow and not just pep talks,and that's what I think we need
to do in organizational behaviormanagement one question I have

(14:56):
is about the severity of theconsequences, especially
negative consequences.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
In episode seven I talked about managers letting
their employees learn from theirmistakes in certain
circumstances.
So the example I discussed wasI was working on a project.
At work, I missed one detail inmy design and when we released
my design, we were immediatelyhit with a stop shipment, which
is this really costly situationwhere you have to stop
production of a product, and Iremember I had to stay really

(15:26):
late that night working withmanufacturing to solve the
problem and fix the productsthat contained the mistake, and
I never, ever, forgot thatexperience.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
You know, a good way for people to learn by
experience would be we don'tneed any laws about wearing
seatbelts.
Let them get seriously injuredand then one of their loved ones
get killed.
They'll learn from thatexperience and they'll wear
seatbelts.
Actually, in truth, I knew afamily related to me and the

(15:57):
mother and two daughters were inan accident and they didn't
have the seatbelts on and onedaughter was killed and, man,
they wore their seatbeltsreligiously for over a month and
then well, and it fell apart.
So it may depend on theseverity of the consequences and

(16:20):
I would suspect actually, asyou describe it, the consequence
for your organization was nottrivial.
They might have been willing topay a little bit for some
organizational behaviormanagement that would have
prevented that.

Speaker 2 (16:35):
Now in organizational settings.
How can these behaviormanagement strategies be
effectively implemented to shapebehavior and ensure consistent,
reliable outcomes?

Speaker 1 (17:00):
talk about shaping when it's a skill that the
person doesn't have and you'regoing to train them by getting
them closer and closer to beingable to play the piano or sing
on.
Key Behavior management wouldbe to try to get the behavior to
occur with the frequency andreliability that it needs to
occur.
It's powerful in managing otherpeople or your own behavior.
There's no question.
There's a lot of data.

(17:21):
If you use rules that are easyto follow and have significant
consequences, then there'll benot as trouble getting the
behavior to occur.
I would say the biggest problemis setting up the system and
managing the system to managethe behavior.

(17:43):
In a very simple example in theclassroom, teachers often have
behavior problems with the kidsand lack of studying and
disruptive behavior.
It's fairly easy to designperformance management program
that will control the kids'behaviors and get them behaving

(18:04):
so that they will learn and theywill not disturb everyone else.
But you've got one teacher,maybe a couple of teachers'
aides and 20 kids or 30 kids,and that ain't easy.
The most difficult problem isimplementing and maintenance of
the system.
A common problem is peopleattend workshops and they leave

(18:24):
the workshops full of enthusiasmand it's really hard to get it
implemented and hard to keep itgoing to be done, but you need
to take that into consideration.
So you need a system thatyou've got the frontline staff,
you've got supervisors and thenyou've got those supervisors.
You need someone to supervisethem and you need that system to
go all the way up.

(18:44):
And the top dog also needssomebody to supervise them
somehow.
But they need someaccountability often.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
So it takes a whole place to end because it ties
right in with our earliertangent exploring that age-old
philosophical question whoguards the guards?
But I just want to thank youfor sharing your insights on
performance management.
I think especially yourexplanation of the importance of
easy-to-follow rules is a toolthat our listeners can add to

(19:16):
their management toolboxes, toolthat our listeners can add to
their management toolboxes.
So we appreciate your time andexpertise and I'm sure our
listeners have gained valuableknowledge on how to effectively
shape and manage behavior intheir own organizations.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
Well, thank you for this opportunity.
I look forward to hearing thefinal product.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
Thanks much, thank you.
Well, there's certainly a lotmore under the hood.
When we look closely at theidea of carrots and sticks, my
takeaway is definitely thatimportance of easy-to-follow
rules.
Dr Millott explained that thesearen't just rules that are
simple and easy to remember.
Instead, easy-to-follow rulesare those where the consequences

(19:54):
of behavior are immediate,significant and likely to occur.
Immediate, significant andlikely to occur.
These characteristics make therules effective in shaping
behavior, because individualscan clearly see the direct link
between their actions and theoutcomes.
I think that was the case in myexperience at work where the
mistake in my design produced animmediate, significant outcome,

(20:15):
and that's probably one of thereasons that made such a big
impression on me is becausethere was a clear link between
the action and the outcome.
This week, take some time toreflect on the feedback
mechanisms in your workplace,particularly those with
consequences that are unlikelyto occur or not immediate.
For example, if someone makes amistake, is there a real and

(20:36):
timely consequence, or does itoften go unnoticed?
When someone makes a mistake,is there a real and timely
consequence, or does it often gounnoticed?
Consider how you can redesignthese processes to make the
rules clearer and the feedbackmore immediate.
So with that, thank you forjoining me on another episode of
the Management Theory Toolbox.
Stay tuned for our next episode, where we explore blame and
punishment in the context oforganizational learning.

(20:58):
In the meantime, keep learning,keep growing and keep adding to
your management theory toolbox.
Thank you.