What does management theory have to do with Jurassic Park? Or quantum physics? Join Dr. Werner van Zyl and Ryan McCreedy on this episode of The Management Theory Toolbox where we explore the idea of organizations as complex adaptive systems. Not only does this open our eyes to the "matrix" of the business world, but it has profound implications for leaders who need to be prepared to iterate rapidly in today's ever-shifting landscape.
Dr. Werner van Zyl [Guest], B. Comm (Hons), MBA, DBL, is highly passionate about complex systems, blending his doctoral research in complexity with practical experience. His specialization lies at the nexus of human behaviour and technology, with a keen focus on the psychology and neuroscience underpinning human actions. This unique perspective guides his approach in consulting and daily work improving organizational effectiveness and efficiency. He uses his experience in knowledge management, human behaviour and complex systems to provide novel perspectives on problem solving at Jizni Performance, where he is a business development principal, always looking for ways to ensure processes and workflows improvement in a complex environment.
Ryan T. W. McCreedy [Guest], is a Leadership and Organizational Psychology scholar-practitioner based in Cambridge, Massachusetts, dedicated to creating inclusive, equitable workforces and economic systems. He works as a Principal Organizational Effectiveness Consultant at Slalom Consulting in Boston, focusing on talent and organizational development for Fortune 100 clients, and leads Slalom's global Leadership and Team Development capabilities. With a background in engineering and behavioral sciences, Ryan has contributed to transformative changes in various industries. He also engages in organizational behavior research and helps teach graduate courses at Harvard. Ryan holds several degrees, including a B.S. from George Mason University, an A.L.M from Harvard Extension School, and is pursuing a doctoral degree at William James College focusing in applications of neuroscience in workplaces. Beyond his professional life, he enjoys brewing beer, cooking, music, philosophical discussions, and traveling with his wife Hannah.
Travis C. Mallett [Host], is a Masters of Liberal Arts (ALM) candidate at Harvard University Extension School, where he has also earned Professional Graduate Certificates in both Organizational Behavior and Strategic Management. Travis previously received undergraduate degrees in Electrical Engineering, General Mathematics, and Music from Washington State University. He also served as an Engineering Manager at Schweitzer Engineering Laboratories, where he led a team responsible for developing and maintaining SEL's highest-selling product line. An innovative force in engineering, Travis holds numerous patents and has authored papers and books across diverse subjects. His passion for continuous learning and organizational excellence propels him to explore and illuminate the intricacies of management theories. Through his podcast, "The Management Theory Toolbox", he offers valuable insights on effective leadership, business innovation, and strategic methodologies.
Want to dive in even deeper? Visit the full show notes for this episode.
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Episode Transcript
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Dr. Werner van Zyl (00:01):
For me, understanding that an
organization is a complexadapter system can help leaders
and managers create strategiesthat are flexible, responsive
and adaptable to the changingenvironment.
Travis Mallett (00:16):
You're listening to the Management Theory
Toolbox, your top destinationfor exploring the why behind it,
all the discoveries ofneuroscience, psychology,
business and economics that openour eyes to what's happening
behind the scenes of thebusiness and management world.
I'm your host, Travis Mallett,and I'm excited to be on this
journey with you.
In our last episode, we startedexploring the question what is
(00:41):
an organization?
Which sounds pretty boring, Iknow, but after a philosophical
tangent about emergence innature, we came across this idea
that businesses andorganizations in general are not
just machines.
Instead, they exhibit emergentphenomena, much like many living
systems in nature.
This idea is so compelling, infact, that we decided to
(01:03):
dedicate another episode topeeling back yet more layers of
this important paradigm.
As we'll find in upcomingepisodes, it's important to have
a view of organizations whichsufficiently acknowledges the
underlying complexity.
Otherwise, we'll stay stuck ata surface level, collecting
management tips and tricks, likemy nine-year-old daughter and
her friends collect Pokemoncards without understanding how
(01:26):
the underlying mechanics of thegame work.
At first, my daughter onlycared about the hit points, or
HP, of a card.
The bigger the better, right.
But as we've explored how cardsinteract with others, she's
discovered that even a card witha large HP might be useless in
the wrong context.
And that's exactly the kind ofexploration we do at the
Management Theory Toolbox.
(01:47):
So in today's episode we'rereally going to focus in on the
idea of emergence and how thatleads us to the idea of living
systems or, as we'll discover,the idea of complex adaptive
systems.
And here to guide ourunderstanding .
Hi, Werner, and welcome to theshow.
(02:07):
Hi Travis, and thanks forhaving me Great.
So before we get started, goahead and introduce yourself and
tell us a bit about yourbackground and your work.
Dr. Werner van Zyl (02:17):
I'm Werner van Zyl, and I'm a Business
Development Principal JizniFirearm Firearm Accessories in
South Africa.
Before that, I received myDoctorate in Business Leadership
from the University of SouthAfrica, the Graduate School of
Business Leadership.
I do a lot of thinking and workin the area of human behavior,
technology systems and, inparticular, complexity, so I'm
(02:40):
really excited to talk to youabout these topics today.
Travis Mallett (02:43):
Excellent, and thank you for joining us.
So in our last episode just toremind our listeners we came
across this idea of emergence innature, and that led us to
understand that organizationsare not just these static
objects that we can reallyeasily understand.
So, before we get into thecomplexity of it all, can you
teach us just a little bit aboutemergence?
What is it and what do we meanby that idea?
Dr. Werner van Zyl (03:05):
So emergence is a really fascinating
phenomenon.
That's observed in varioussystems, but it's seen in nature
and in a human-designed contextsuch as technology At its core.
Emergence refers to situationswhere complex system displays
properties or behavior that arenot evident by breaking them
(03:25):
down into its constituent parts.
This is often better expressedas the whole is more than the
sum of the parts.
So in nature we see strikingexamples of emergence.
Consider how individual atomsbond to form molecules.
Each was characteristic, quitedistinct from those of the
(03:45):
isolated atoms.
Alan Adams (MIT) (03:49):
Your intuition was developed by throwing
spears and running from tigersand catching toast as it jumps
out of the toaster, all of whichinvolves things so big and with
so much energy that quantumeffects are negligible.
As a friend of mine likes tosay that you don't need to know
quantum mechanics to makechicken soup.
However, when we work in verydifferent regimes, your
intuition is just not areasonable guide.
(04:12):
It's not that the electrons andthis is I cannot emphasize this
strongly enough it is not thatthe electrons are weird.
The electrons do what electronsdo.
This is what they do and itviolates your intuition, but
it's true.
The thing that's surprising isthat lots of electrons behave
like this.
Lots of electrons behave likecheese and chalk.
Travis Mallett (04:37):
That was Dr Alan Adams from MIT giving his
famous opening lecture tointroductory quantum physics.
What Dr Vansil and ProfessorAdams are saying is that atoms
in combination with other atomsgive rise to new physical
properties, and that's theessence of emergence.
Individual atoms don't meltwhen heated up, they just have
(05:00):
higher energy.
But cheese melts, and we wouldsay that the ability to melt is
a property that emerges from thesystem.
Dr. Werner van Zyl (05:09):
Back to our guest in the realm of biology.
Ants are a classic example.
Each ant follows relativelysimple rules, but collectively
they exhibit complex behaviorssuch as building intricate
colonies or finding the mostefficient part to food sources.
If I can give you one moreexample, the flocking of birds,
(05:33):
Each bird in a flock reacts to afew neighbors, yet this results
in the entire flock moving inan impressively coordinated way.
This isn't due to any singlebird leading or all of them
following a shared plan.
It's an emergent property ofthe interaction between the
(05:54):
individual birds.
These instances show howemergency is about surprising
and complex behavior that arisefrom simple components
interacting with each other.
Travis Mallett (06:06):
Werner brings up a stellar example with ants,
and I wanna linger on that for aminute.
Imagine we do an experimentwith an ant.
The ant starts down a maze andfollows a trail leading to a
wide junction or split in thepath.
If it goes left, the ant willfind food, but there's no food
if the ant goes right.
Assuming the ant can't sensethe food down the path, we
(06:28):
expect it to make a randomchoice, and that's exactly what
happens.
But what happens if we repeatthat experiment many times with
the same ant, always keeping thefood on the left?
You'd think that the ant wouldeventually learn the food is on
the left and always take thatroute.
But here's the interesting partno matter how many times this
(06:49):
experiment has been repeated,the ant always makes a random
choice to go left or right.
It never seems to learn thatthe food is on the left.
In fact, researchers have neverbeen able to train ants to do
anything.
And before you ask, yes, peoplehave, with all the seriousness
and gravity of the scientificmethod behind them, tried
(07:11):
training ants.
The twist, however, lies in howants communicate.
When one ant discovers food andreturns to the nest, it leaves
a pheromone trail.
Other ants sensing this aremore likely to follow the
successful path.
The result Just two simplerules programmed into ant
behavior allow an ant colony toquickly find and swarm even the
(07:34):
tiniest crumb.
But on their own no single antcan do that.
It's only when they cometogether in a colony that that
behavior emerges.
And that's what emergence issimpler elements coming together
to produce more complexphenomena.
So, warner, people are clearlymore complex than atoms, ants or
(07:57):
birds.
What can you tell us about whathappens when people come
together in an organization?
What kind of emergent phenomenado we see?
Dr. Werner van Zyl (08:06):
This concept of emergence is not just
confide to natural systems.
It has profound implications inareas like business, technology
and social systems, whereunderstanding emergent
properties can lead to moreeffective strategies and
solutions.
These emergent properties, aswe've seen, are not always
(08:26):
directly predictable from thecharacteristics of the
individual elements, such as theemployees, processes or
policies, just to name a fewexamples.
Instead, there are the resultof complex interactions within
the organizational system.
An example can be seen inmarket dynamics with a business
(08:48):
ecosystem.
Consider, for example, howsmall scale interactions between
businesses, consumers andmarket forces can lead to large
scale phenomena like markettrends, economic cycles or
consumer behavior.
These are not the results ofany single decision or policy,
but emerges from the complex webof interactions between the
(09:13):
market.
In business, emergence can alsobe observed in self-organizing
teams.
When teams are given autonomyand flexibility, they often
develop unique ways of working,problem solving, approaches and
dynamics that are not explicitlyplanned or predicted by any
(09:35):
person in management.
These emergent properties canlead to higher efficiency,
innovation and adaptiveness,which are valuable in a rapidly
changing business environment.
And, lastly, understanding andharnessing emergent properties
in organizations involved,recognizing that these
(09:56):
properties un-always controlledor cannot always be predicted.
So instead, it involvescreating an environment where
positive emergent properties aremore likely to arise through
the interaction of systemscomponents.
So this approach essentiallyrequires a shift from the
(10:19):
traditional top-down management,as in a hierarchy, to more
decentralized, adaptive andresponsive organizational
structures.
Travis Mallett (10:30):
So one of the things that you talk about in
your articles is the idea ofcomplex adaptive systems.
Can you tell us what's the mainidea of complex adaptive
systems and how does it relateto emergence?
Dr. Werner van Zyl (10:40):
Yeah, sure.
So I am fascinated by a complexadaptive systems.
As you can imagine, I see themessentially everywhere, now that
I know a little bit more aboutthem, since I studied it as a
large part of my doctoralstudies.
So complex adaptive systems area key concept in understanding
(11:02):
how systems themselves behave inenvironments that are not just
complex but are also dynamic andever-changing.
So these systems are composedof multiple, diverse elements
which interact with each otherthat are often, as they say, not
linear and unpredictable.
Ryan McCreedy (11:22):
See the tyrannous , or it doesn't have any set
patterns or park schedules.
It's the essence of chaos.
Amanda Rasmussen (Travis' (11:30):
Still not clear on chaos.
Ryan McCreedy (11:32):
Oh, it's simply deals with predictability and
complex systems.
The shorthand is the butterfly.
The butterfly can flap itswings if it came in Central Park
or get raided instead ofsunshine.
And then I go too fast.
I go too fast.
I did a fly box.
Give me that big glass of water.
We're going to conduct anexperiment.
(11:52):
It should be still the cardsbouncing up and down, but that's
okay, it's just an example.
Now put your hand flat like ahieroglyphic.
Now let's say you dropwaterfalls in your hand.
Which way is the drop going toroll off?
Which finger are you rolling onSome?
Okay, now freeze your hand,don't move.
I'm going to do the same thing.
Start with the same Same placeagain.
Travis Mallett (12:14):
Which way is going to roll off?
Ryan McCreedy (12:15):
Let's say the same way, same way the chain.
Why?
Because tiny variations theorientation of the hairs on your
hand, the amount of blood tosending your vessels,
imperfections in the skin,infections in the skin Like
microscopic, macroscopic Neverrepeat and vastly affect the
(12:36):
outcome.
That's Unpredictability there.
Look at this, see.
See, I'm right again.
Nobody could have predictedthat Dr Grand would suddenly,
suddenly jump out of a movingvehicle.
There's another example, see.
Here I'm now by myself, talkingto myself.
Travis Mallett (12:59):
That's KM's theory.
That was Dr Sattler, played byJeff Goldbloom, explaining chaos
theory in the 1993 JurassicPark.
The idea is that complexsystems cannot be modeled and
predicted in the same way wemight reliably predict where a
basketball will land usingclassical physics.
Jeff mentions the butterflyeffect, and my sister-in-law,
(13:23):
who's a school teacher, gave apertinent example of this
recently while we were visitingfamily for Christmas.
Amanda Rasmussen (Travis' sis (13:29):
I had an interesting experience
happen recently.
Travis recommended a podcast tome and as I was listening to
the podcast they recommended abook and it piqued my interest.
So I started listening to itthis summer and was just blown
away by the content.
It was so fascinating to me andjust changed my perspective,
(13:52):
even as an educator with manyyears of experience as a
facilitator of a committee.
I mentioned this book and nowthe whole committee is doing a
book study and we're partneringwith the parents and the
teachers.
Who knows how far the rippleeffect might reach?
It may impact parents and howthey parent their children and
(14:16):
how us teachers view ourstudents, and then these
students get to build on thatand achieve success, grow and
learn without limits.
Who knows, maybe one of thesestudents may grow up to be a
game changer, a world leader.
But all this would have notcome about if I hadn't listened
to that podcast that Travis hadrecommended, probably close to a
(14:38):
year ago.
Travis Mallett (14:40):
Of course, I can't take any credit for the
positive impacts of that.
That goes to my sister-in-lawand her leadership and tenacity
for continuous learning.
But this effect, popularlyknown as the butterfly effect,
comes from the idea that abutterfly in one area of the
world might flap its wings,causing a small gust of wind
that creates ripple effectswhich later cause a change in
(15:02):
the weather.
Now that popular example is abit of hyperbole, since
scientists have argued thatlarge-scale climate phenomena
are much more stable than that.
Human interactions are, in manyrespects, very unstable.
When Dr Van Zael says thatorganizations are complex,
adaptive systems which arenonlinear and unpredictable,
(15:26):
this is exactly the type ofphenomenon that we're talking
about.
Even small perturbations in ahuman system can have major
unpredictable outcomes, and thathas profound implications for
us as managers.
So, warnor, can you now explainthe adaptive part of complex
adaptive systems?
Dr. Werner van Zyl (15:46):
The adaptive part of the complex adaptive
systems refers to the ability ofthe systems to change and learn
from their past experiences,thereby affecting the systems
overall behavior.
So the main idea behind complexadaptive systems is that the
behavior of the whole systemcannot be simply inferred from
(16:10):
understanding its individualparts.
The interplay, for example,between departments, employees,
external stakeholders and marketforces can lead to immersion
phenomena like culture, markettrends or innovation dynamics.
And, for me, understanding thatan organization is a complex
(16:32):
adaptive system can help leadersand managers create strategies
that are flexible, responsiveand adaptable to the changing
environment.
Travis Mallett (16:43):
So a closely related concept is the
difference between open systemsand closed systems.
How important is it for abusiness to be an open system
and what are the risks of beinga closed system in today's
rapidly changing businesslandscape?
Dr. Werner van Zyl (16:57):
So I'll start with open systems.
Open systems interact freelywith their environment, where
they exchange information,energy or resources.
Some people, they virtually dothat as a material.
They adapt and evolve based onfeedback and changes in their
surroundings.
In contrast, the closed systemhas limited interaction with
(17:20):
their environment.
They operate in isolation, withminimal external input or
exchange, and in business, aclosed system might ignore
external market trends, focusingrather on internal processes
and existing models.
So, for businesses, being anopen system is crucial in
today's interconnected,interrelated and independent
(17:45):
world.
Open systems are more adaptableand responsive to changes,
which allows for greaterinnovation and resilience.
They can better anticipate andmeet customer needs, stay ahead
of market trends and competitors, and integrate new technologies
into their organizationalsystems.
(18:05):
Lastly, when you have a closedsystem, it poses significant
risks to an organization, whichis something I think many
organizations don't alwaysrealize how close they are,
because such businesses maybecome obsolete as they fail to
adapt to new market realities,customer preferences and
(18:26):
technological advances.
It's vital for businesses tooperate in an open system,
embracing the change andexternal interactions as
opportunities for continuedimprovement and innovation.
Travis Mallett (18:40):
Now, this also leads us to think about how
organizations are organized andcontrolled, and the complex
adaptive system makes us thinkmaybe there's some
self-organization going on.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that, and if that's
something that's desirable, andif so, how can it be implemented
?
Sure.
Dr. Werner van Zyl (18:59):
So self-organization in companies,
research to a process whereorder and structure emerge from
bottom-up interactions among thesystem's components, which can
be the employees or the teams,without any external direction.
The concept is rooted inprinciples of convex adaptive
(19:21):
systems, as we've just seen,where the simple rules and
interactions lead to complex andadaptive outgoes.
You can just think of the humanbody on so many different
levels it self-organizes.
Once you're cut by a knife orquick by needle, the cells in
your body self-organized to healitself without any external
(19:44):
direction.
So to practically implementself-organization, there's a
number of things that companiescan do.
They can empower employees,which means to give the
employees the autonomy to makedecisions and solve problems.
As Dan Pink wrote a beautifulbook on what motivates people
autonomy, mastery and purpose.
(20:06):
Those three things, and hereautonomy really stands out.
So autonomy basically involvestrusting them and allowing
employees to self-manage andtake initiative.
Then also encouragingcollaboration, which fosters a
culture that values teamwork,human communication and
(20:27):
cross-functional collaboration.
And lastly, adapt theleadership style from a
commandable troll leadershipstyle to one that facilitates,
guides and supports autonomousteams.
I'm sure we've both been insome kind of authoritarian
organization that is governedfrom the top down and how that
(20:49):
bifles any growth.
And then, of course, becauseit's a complex environment,
managing the complexity andinterdependence of their actions
can become quite a challenge.
Travis Mallett (21:03):
Yeah.
So, speaking of managing all ofthis, if you let people have
autonomy, I think the concernsome might have is well, isn't
this just going to turn intochaos?
How are you going to actuallycontrol your business, your
strategy, things like that?
And you talk about this idea ofliving on the edge of chaos.
Just talk about how we balancethe difference between
controlling and letting emergentproperties, even if they're
chaotic, emerge.
Dr. Werner van Zyl (21:24):
Yeah, it's absolutely.
I often think about the humanbody as existing on the age of
chaos.
I once read a book aboutmolecular biology in which the
author goes into the details ofthe absolute chaos that goes on
inside the cell.
It is essentially like ahurricane that manifests itself
(21:44):
24 hours a day, seven days aweek, nonstop, and yet we are
organized into a coherent set ofprocesses and cells that are
able to make decisions, thinkand feel.
So I just want to give a briefdefinition of the age of chaos.
In complex systems theory, itrefers to a state of balance
(22:07):
between the older and the chaos.
It's either old and it's asweet spot where systems speak
the exhibit enough order tomaintain coherence and enough
chaos to foster the flexibility,deptability and creativity.
In a business context,operating at the age of chaos
means finding a dynamic balancewhere there's sufficient
(22:31):
structure to ensure thestability and efficiency but, on
the other hand, also enoughopenness to ensure innovation
and adaptation.
So this balance is crucial forbusinesses to thrive in a
rapidly changing environment.
Practitioners, such asconsultants, should be prepared
to iterate rapidly, experimentand pivot strategies based on
(22:54):
real time feedback and change inthe environment.
As problems become more complex,solutions will increasingly
rely on collaboration acrossdifferent disciplines,
industries and even cultures.
So embracing diversity andfostering a collaborative
culture will be key.
(23:15):
So the rapid pace of changewill require that we make an
commitment to continuouslearning and professional
development to stay abreast ofnew theories, technologies and
practices.
So in ASAN's, managers shouldprepare for a future with
adaptability, integratedthinking and respond to complex,
(23:35):
evolving systems or not justadvantages, but absolutely
essential for success andsustainability.
Thank, you.
Travis Mallett (23:45):
This is fascinating.
Before we sign off, can youtell our listeners how they can
find you in your work?
Dr. Werner van Zyl (23:50):
Sure, you can find me on LinkedIn under Dr
Bernadette R Van Zael, and I'dlove to hear from you and
connect with you all.
Thanks again for having me onthe trend.
I really appreciate it, thankyou.
Travis Mallett (24:06):
Hopefully that helps clarify what emergence is
and how it applies to our studyof organizations.
For me, this idea of complexadaptive systems carries two
main takeaways for us asmanagers.
First, it helps us understandjust how little control we
actually have.
I'm reminded of what HarvardBusiness School professor Linda
(24:26):
Hill said in her article titledBecoming the Boss.
HBS Professor Lynda Hill pl (24:30):
New managers typically focus on the
rights and privileges that comewith being the boss they assume
.
The position will give themmore authority, more freedom and
autonomy.
No longer, in the words of one,will they be burdened by the
unreasonable demands of others.
New managers nursing thisassumption face a rude awakening
(24:54):
.
Instead of gaining newauthority, those I have studied
describe finding themselveshemmed in by interdependencies
and meshed in a web ofrelationships, all of whom make
relentless and often conflictingdemands on them.
The fact is, you're really notin control of anything, says one
(25:14):
new manager.
The only time I'm in control iswhen I shut my door and then I
feel I am not doing the job.
I'm not doing the job I'msupposed to be doing, which is
being with the people.
Another new manager observesit's humbling that someone who
(25:35):
works for me could get me fired.
Travis Mallett (25:38):
Due to the inherent unpredictability and
instability of human systems.
Business leaders need tounderstand that we don't have as
much control as we would liketo think.
Speaking of instability, thatbrings me to my second takeaway.
Think back to the butterflyeffect, the idea that the flap
of a butterfly's wings couldcause nonlinear effects that
change the weather.
(25:59):
As I said, climate systems arenot exactly that unstable.
But why is that?
After all, airflow dynamics arestrongly nonlinear.
I'm not a meteorologist orphysicist, but recent studies
suggest that climate models haveterms which would tend to
dampen out small perturbationslike that.
And what are those terms?
(26:20):
This is, of course, highlysimplified, but we can imagine
that mountains and othergeographical features, along
with the rhythm of the sun'srays, play a much larger role in
the formation of large climateconditions than a butterfly's
wings.
In the same way, humanorganizations have many systems,
structures, processes andelements of company culture
(26:40):
which help hold the organizationtogether and keep the whole
thing from descending into chaos.
These are the performancereviews, regular work schedules,
shared values, expectedbehavior in a professional
environment, unspoken rules, jobdescriptions and pay stubs, and
one of our jobs as managers isto build and maintain the glue
(27:01):
which keeps the organization onthe edge of chaos, as Dr Van
Ziel said.
So that wraps up ourintroduction to emergence
organizations and living systems, or does it?
I feel that something ismissing.
Although the idea of complexadaptive systems opens a whole
new world for us to explore, itcan also be a very abstract
concept, somewhat difficult tograsp onto, and often, when
(27:24):
dealing with complex topics likethis, it's useful to have an
analogy or metaphor for us tokeep in mind, provided we
recognize their limitations andboundaries of efficacy.
Let's give Ryan McCready a callagain to see if he can help.
We heard from Ryan in thetrailer episode as a doctoral
candidate at William JamesCollege studying the
intersection of neuroscience andleadership.
(27:44):
He might have a usefulperspective to offer.
Hi, ryan, and welcome back tothe show.
Travis, thanks for having meback again.
Quick question for you.
In today's episode we'refurther exploring the idea of
organizations as living systems,and I'm wondering if you have
any ways of thinking about thisthat could help our listeners
latch on to the idea, sinceit'll provide a foundation for
(28:05):
future episodes.
Ryan McCreedy (28:06):
So it's very easy for folks to try to use
organizations as a living system.
A lot of people like say thatthere's organs and organelles
and that it's like a body andthat's the boundary.
Sometimes that's effective, butwhat's really interesting is in
complex, adaptive systems itdefies the logic of that
tradition.
The general concept oforganization in the mind is that
(28:27):
every individual maps socialsystems within their mind.
They have a model or aframework or a representation
that mirrors the external worldImperfectly.
I want to be clear because wehave a lot of assumptions.
One of my favorite people isMichael Graziano from Princeton
and he has spent time on atheory of consciousness and
(28:47):
essentially his theory ofconsciousness is that you have
these mental models of thesesocial systems within your mind.
You also have a mental model ofyourself in your mind.
In a way, consciousness is yourability to interact with your
mental model of self in playscenarios with social systems,
ie other mental models of otherpeople and or the groups that
they recognize.
(29:08):
That's what's happening rightnow when you think about what's
Ryan going to say next.
What's going to happen latertonight with my significant
other over dinner.
What's going to happen when Iwalk out of this room and I go
beat with the rest of myorganization.
We are such a social creature.
There were always trying tomake those mental models work
together.
So they act in nodes.
So play with me.
Here you have these littlemental models and they have
(29:29):
little connections between themand we're always trying to
figure out what they're doing.
What's fascinating is that thatpretty much describes a neural
network, and those mental modelssit within parts of our minds
and we have circuits that areconstantly doing that.
When you look at anorganization and you look how
they communicate with oneanother, it actually does almost
the same thing.
There's a concept calledorganizational network analysis.
(29:49):
You can see who's talking towho, how they're talking to each
other, how often they'retalking to each other, etc.
It's a reality of that samemental model in the same way.
I think it would be processor.
What's interesting about thatis that at a very deep level,
you could assume that everybodyhas these circuits that are
firing.
They're similar, but they're alittle imperfect from one
another.
What's super fascinating one ofmy most favorite things is in
(30:12):
physiological synchrony orinterbrain synchrony.
So when we get to the grouplevel, there's actually
different things that can happen, where we mirror one another,
but not just two people.
We mirror all the people.
You will see us actually haveour brain waves start to sink
and get in phase with oneanother.
I'm talking about, within amillisecond, very, very, very
precise brain wavesynchronization.
(30:35):
We have done studies on this andthat interbrain synchrony can
predict how close people are inthat organizational network that
I was just talking about.
It can take complete strangers.
Think of college students thatare just starting freshman year
and they watch an introductoryvideo at different times.
If their brains are moreclosely in sync while they're
watching that video, it predictshow close they'll be in that
(30:57):
social network later on in thatsame college career.
You can predict friendshipswith this.
It goes even further than that.
If you get people withcompletely different heart rates
, different brain waveshappening at different times,
you get them into a room.
You do some simple exercises,things like mirroring.
If you hold up your handslistening to music, everybody's
listening the same BPM.
(31:17):
Eye contact, sometimes physicaltouch, actually increases
oxytone, which is another partof what we study.
All of those things willactually enhance sense of
connection and alignment.
But not group thought, notgroup think.
So when you're dealing withsome of these really really,
really tricky things.
By getting people tosynchronize that way, we
actually move past some of thestorming and we allow for
(31:39):
productive storming.
We allow for people to actuallywork through some really tricky
problems with one other, and sowhat's cool about that is, say
you have a dysfunctional group.
I'll be designing interventionswith those things in mind, such
that subconsciously, thesefolks start to become more
physiologically in sync, whichallows for productive dialogue
where they can actually workthrough some of their
(32:01):
disagreements, become morealigned and have better outcomes
and feel more connected at avery deep physiological level.
Travis Mallett (32:09):
Got it.
Thanks, ryan.
Hope to have you back on theshow soon.
So just to summarize, westarted in episode one by
seeking to understand what anorganization is.
Katie Livingston dispelled themyths of organizations as
machines for us and led us tothis idea of organizations as
living systems, which has allkinds of implications for
(32:29):
management.
But what kind of living systemsare we talking about?
Dr Van Zil explained to us,when we get into the nitty
gritty details of how anorganization works, we're really
working with something called acomplex adaptive system.
And finally, ryan McCready justexplained to us what kind of
living system we should bethinking about.
The closest analogy turns outto be the human brain.
(32:52):
Hang on to these ideas, becausethey're going to provide the
foundation for many of ourupcoming episodes.
So what's next?
If we're going to studyorganizations and if
organizations are complexadaptive systems much like
neural networks, it makes senseto start by studying the neurons
themselves, the behavior of thepeople which make up an
(33:14):
organization.
In management theory, this iscalled organizational behavior,
and we'll dive into it startingnext week and along the way
we're going to be collecting alot of tools for our management
toolboxes, while developing adeeper understanding of the
theory that underlies thosetools.
With that, thank you for tuningin to the management theory
toolbox, your top destinationfor the behind the scenes of
(33:37):
management and business theory.
As always, each episode isbased on the latest and most
robust management theory and youcan download the show notes to
find references and learn more.
Until next time, keep learning,keep growing and keep building
your management theory toolbox.
For me, understanding that an
organization is a complexadapter system can help leaders
and managers create strategiesthat are flexible, responsive
and adaptable to the changingenvironment.
Travis Mallett (00:16):
You're listening to the Management Theory
Toolbox, your top destinationfor exploring the why behind it,
all the discoveries ofneuroscience, psychology,
business and economics that openour eyes to what's happening
behind the scenes of thebusiness and management world.
I'm your host, Travis Mallett,and I'm excited to be on this
journey with you.
In our last episode, we startedexploring the question what is
(00:41):
an organization?
Which sounds pretty boring, Iknow, but after a philosophical
tangent about emergence innature, we came across this idea
that businesses andorganizations in general are not
just machines.
Instead, they exhibit emergentphenomena, much like many living
systems in nature.
This idea is so compelling, infact, that we decided to
(01:03):
dedicate another episode topeeling back yet more layers of
this important paradigm.
As we'll find in upcomingepisodes, it's important to have
a view of organizations whichsufficiently acknowledges the
underlying complexity.
Otherwise, we'll stay stuck ata surface level, collecting
management tips and tricks, likemy nine-year-old daughter and
her friends collect Pokemoncards without understanding how
(01:26):
the underlying mechanics of thegame work.
At first, my daughter onlycared about the hit points, or
HP, of a card.
The bigger the better, right.
But as we've explored how cardsinteract with others, she's
discovered that even a card witha large HP might be useless in
the wrong context.
And that's exactly the kind ofexploration we do at the
Management Theory Toolbox.
(01:47):
So in today's episode we'rereally going to focus in on the
idea of emergence and how thatleads us to the idea of living
systems or, as we'll discover,the idea of complex adaptive
systems.
And here to guide ourunderstanding .
Hi, Werner, and welcome to theshow.
(02:07):
Hi Travis, and thanks forhaving me Great.
So before we get started, goahead and introduce yourself and
tell us a bit about yourbackground and your work.
Dr. Werner van Zyl (02:17):
I'm Werner van Zyl, and I'm a Business
Development Principal JizniFirearm Firearm Accessories in
South Africa.
Before that, I received myDoctorate in Business Leadership
from the University of SouthAfrica, the Graduate School of
Business Leadership.
I do a lot of thinking and workin the area of human behavior,
technology systems and, inparticular, complexity, so I'm
(02:40):
really excited to talk to youabout these topics today.
Travis Mallett (02:43):
Excellent, and thank you for joining us.
So in our last episode just toremind our listeners we came
across this idea of emergence innature, and that led us to
understand that organizationsare not just these static
objects that we can reallyeasily understand.
So, before we get into thecomplexity of it all, can you
teach us just a little bit aboutemergence?
What is it and what do we meanby that idea?
Dr. Werner van Zyl (03:05):
So emergence is a really fascinating
phenomenon.
That's observed in varioussystems, but it's seen in nature
and in a human-designed contextsuch as technology At its core.
Emergence refers to situationswhere complex system displays
properties or behavior that arenot evident by breaking them
(03:25):
down into its constituent parts.
This is often better expressedas the whole is more than the
sum of the parts.
So in nature we see strikingexamples of emergence.
Consider how individual atomsbond to form molecules.
Each was characteristic, quitedistinct from those of the
(03:45):
isolated atoms.
Alan Adams (MIT) (03:49):
Your intuition was developed by throwing
spears and running from tigersand catching toast as it jumps
out of the toaster, all of whichinvolves things so big and with
so much energy that quantumeffects are negligible.
As a friend of mine likes tosay that you don't need to know
quantum mechanics to makechicken soup.
However, when we work in verydifferent regimes, your
intuition is just not areasonable guide.
(04:12):
It's not that the electrons andthis is I cannot emphasize this
strongly enough it is not thatthe electrons are weird.
The electrons do what electronsdo.
This is what they do and itviolates your intuition, but
it's true.
The thing that's surprising isthat lots of electrons behave
like this.
Lots of electrons behave likecheese and chalk.
Travis Mallett (04:37):
That was Dr Alan Adams from MIT giving his
famous opening lecture tointroductory quantum physics.
What Dr Vansil and ProfessorAdams are saying is that atoms
in combination with other atomsgive rise to new physical
properties, and that's theessence of emergence.
Individual atoms don't meltwhen heated up, they just have
(05:00):
higher energy.
But cheese melts, and we wouldsay that the ability to melt is
a property that emerges from thesystem.
Dr. Werner van Zyl (05:09):
Back to our guest in the realm of biology.
Ants are a classic example.
Each ant follows relativelysimple rules, but collectively
they exhibit complex behaviorssuch as building intricate
colonies or finding the mostefficient part to food sources.
If I can give you one moreexample, the flocking of birds,
(05:33):
Each bird in a flock reacts to afew neighbors, yet this results
in the entire flock moving inan impressively coordinated way.
This isn't due to any singlebird leading or all of them
following a shared plan.
It's an emergent property ofthe interaction between the
(05:54):
individual birds.
These instances show howemergency is about surprising
and complex behavior that arisefrom simple components
interacting with each other.
Travis Mallett (06:06):
Werner brings up a stellar example with ants,
and I wanna linger on that for aminute.
Imagine we do an experimentwith an ant.
The ant starts down a maze andfollows a trail leading to a
wide junction or split in thepath.
If it goes left, the ant willfind food, but there's no food
if the ant goes right.
Assuming the ant can't sensethe food down the path, we
(06:28):
expect it to make a randomchoice, and that's exactly what
happens.
But what happens if we repeatthat experiment many times with
the same ant, always keeping thefood on the left?
You'd think that the ant wouldeventually learn the food is on
the left and always take thatroute.
But here's the interesting partno matter how many times this
(06:49):
experiment has been repeated,the ant always makes a random
choice to go left or right.
It never seems to learn thatthe food is on the left.
In fact, researchers have neverbeen able to train ants to do
anything.
And before you ask, yes, peoplehave, with all the seriousness
and gravity of the scientificmethod behind them, tried
(07:11):
training ants.
The twist, however, lies in howants communicate.
When one ant discovers food andreturns to the nest, it leaves
a pheromone trail.
Other ants sensing this aremore likely to follow the
successful path.
The result Just two simplerules programmed into ant
behavior allow an ant colony toquickly find and swarm even the
(07:34):
tiniest crumb.
But on their own no single antcan do that.
It's only when they cometogether in a colony that that
behavior emerges.
And that's what emergence issimpler elements coming together
to produce more complexphenomena.
So, warner, people are clearlymore complex than atoms, ants or
(07:57):
birds.
What can you tell us about whathappens when people come
together in an organization?
What kind of emergent phenomenado we see?
Dr. Werner van Zyl (08:06):
This concept of emergence is not just
confide to natural systems.
It has profound implications inareas like business, technology
and social systems, whereunderstanding emergent
properties can lead to moreeffective strategies and
solutions.
These emergent properties, aswe've seen, are not always
(08:26):
directly predictable from thecharacteristics of the
individual elements, such as theemployees, processes or
policies, just to name a fewexamples.
Instead, there are the resultof complex interactions within
the organizational system.
An example can be seen inmarket dynamics with a business
(08:48):
ecosystem.
Consider, for example, howsmall scale interactions between
businesses, consumers andmarket forces can lead to large
scale phenomena like markettrends, economic cycles or
consumer behavior.
These are not the results ofany single decision or policy,
but emerges from the complex webof interactions between the
(09:13):
market.
In business, emergence can alsobe observed in self-organizing
teams.
When teams are given autonomyand flexibility, they often
develop unique ways of working,problem solving, approaches and
dynamics that are not explicitlyplanned or predicted by any
(09:35):
person in management.
These emergent properties canlead to higher efficiency,
innovation and adaptiveness,which are valuable in a rapidly
changing business environment.
And, lastly, understanding andharnessing emergent properties
in organizations involved,recognizing that these
(09:56):
properties un-always controlledor cannot always be predicted.
So instead, it involvescreating an environment where
positive emergent properties aremore likely to arise through
the interaction of systemscomponents.
So this approach essentiallyrequires a shift from the
(10:19):
traditional top-down management,as in a hierarchy, to more
decentralized, adaptive andresponsive organizational
structures.
Travis Mallett (10:30):
So one of the things that you talk about in
your articles is the idea ofcomplex adaptive systems.
Can you tell us what's the mainidea of complex adaptive
systems and how does it relateto emergence?
Dr. Werner van Zyl (10:40):
Yeah, sure.
So I am fascinated by a complexadaptive systems.
As you can imagine, I see themessentially everywhere, now that
I know a little bit more aboutthem, since I studied it as a
large part of my doctoralstudies.
So complex adaptive systems area key concept in understanding
(11:02):
how systems themselves behave inenvironments that are not just
complex but are also dynamic andever-changing.
So these systems are composedof multiple, diverse elements
which interact with each otherthat are often, as they say, not
linear and unpredictable.
Ryan McCreedy (11:22):
See the tyrannous , or it doesn't have any set
patterns or park schedules.
It's the essence of chaos.
Amanda Rasmussen (Travis' (11:30):
Still not clear on chaos.
Ryan McCreedy (11:32):
Oh, it's simply deals with predictability and
complex systems.
The shorthand is the butterfly.
The butterfly can flap itswings if it came in Central Park
or get raided instead ofsunshine.
And then I go too fast.
I go too fast.
I did a fly box.
Give me that big glass of water.
We're going to conduct anexperiment.
(11:52):
It should be still the cardsbouncing up and down, but that's
okay, it's just an example.
Now put your hand flat like ahieroglyphic.
Now let's say you dropwaterfalls in your hand.
Which way is the drop going toroll off?
Which finger are you rolling onSome?
Okay, now freeze your hand,don't move.
I'm going to do the same thing.
Start with the same Same placeagain.
Travis Mallett (12:14):
Which way is going to roll off?
Ryan McCreedy (12:15):
Let's say the same way, same way the chain.
Why?
Because tiny variations theorientation of the hairs on your
hand, the amount of blood tosending your vessels,
imperfections in the skin,infections in the skin Like
microscopic, macroscopic Neverrepeat and vastly affect the
(12:36):
outcome.
That's Unpredictability there.
Look at this, see.
See, I'm right again.
Nobody could have predictedthat Dr Grand would suddenly,
suddenly jump out of a movingvehicle.
There's another example, see.
Here I'm now by myself, talkingto myself.
Travis Mallett (12:59):
That's KM's theory.
That was Dr Sattler, played byJeff Goldbloom, explaining chaos
theory in the 1993 JurassicPark.
The idea is that complexsystems cannot be modeled and
predicted in the same way wemight reliably predict where a
basketball will land usingclassical physics.
Jeff mentions the butterflyeffect, and my sister-in-law,
(13:23):
who's a school teacher, gave apertinent example of this
recently while we were visitingfamily for Christmas.
Amanda Rasmussen (Travis' sis (13:29):
I had an interesting experience
happen recently.
Travis recommended a podcast tome and as I was listening to
the podcast they recommended abook and it piqued my interest.
So I started listening to itthis summer and was just blown
away by the content.
It was so fascinating to me andjust changed my perspective,
(13:52):
even as an educator with manyyears of experience as a
facilitator of a committee.
I mentioned this book and nowthe whole committee is doing a
book study and we're partneringwith the parents and the
teachers.
Who knows how far the rippleeffect might reach?
It may impact parents and howthey parent their children and
(14:16):
how us teachers view ourstudents, and then these
students get to build on thatand achieve success, grow and
learn without limits.
Who knows, maybe one of thesestudents may grow up to be a
game changer, a world leader.
But all this would have notcome about if I hadn't listened
to that podcast that Travis hadrecommended, probably close to a
(14:38):
year ago.
Travis Mallett (14:40):
Of course, I can't take any credit for the
positive impacts of that.
That goes to my sister-in-lawand her leadership and tenacity
for continuous learning.
But this effect, popularlyknown as the butterfly effect,
comes from the idea that abutterfly in one area of the
world might flap its wings,causing a small gust of wind
that creates ripple effectswhich later cause a change in
(15:02):
the weather.
Now that popular example is abit of hyperbole, since
scientists have argued thatlarge-scale climate phenomena
are much more stable than that.
Human interactions are, in manyrespects, very unstable.
When Dr Van Zael says thatorganizations are complex,
adaptive systems which arenonlinear and unpredictable,
(15:26):
this is exactly the type ofphenomenon that we're talking
about.
Even small perturbations in ahuman system can have major
unpredictable outcomes, and thathas profound implications for
us as managers.
So, warnor, can you now explainthe adaptive part of complex
adaptive systems?
Dr. Werner van Zyl (15:46):
The adaptive part of the complex adaptive
systems refers to the ability ofthe systems to change and learn
from their past experiences,thereby affecting the systems
overall behavior.
So the main idea behind complexadaptive systems is that the
behavior of the whole systemcannot be simply inferred from
(16:10):
understanding its individualparts.
The interplay, for example,between departments, employees,
external stakeholders and marketforces can lead to immersion
phenomena like culture, markettrends or innovation dynamics.
And, for me, understanding thatan organization is a complex
(16:32):
adaptive system can help leadersand managers create strategies
that are flexible, responsiveand adaptable to the changing
environment.
Travis Mallett (16:43):
So a closely related concept is the
difference between open systemsand closed systems.
How important is it for abusiness to be an open system
and what are the risks of beinga closed system in today's
rapidly changing businesslandscape?
Dr. Werner van Zyl (16:57):
So I'll start with open systems.
Open systems interact freelywith their environment, where
they exchange information,energy or resources.
Some people, they virtually dothat as a material.
They adapt and evolve based onfeedback and changes in their
surroundings.
In contrast, the closed systemhas limited interaction with
(17:20):
their environment.
They operate in isolation, withminimal external input or
exchange, and in business, aclosed system might ignore
external market trends, focusingrather on internal processes
and existing models.
So, for businesses, being anopen system is crucial in
today's interconnected,interrelated and independent
(17:45):
world.
Open systems are more adaptableand responsive to changes,
which allows for greaterinnovation and resilience.
They can better anticipate andmeet customer needs, stay ahead
of market trends and competitors, and integrate new technologies
into their organizationalsystems.
(18:05):
Lastly, when you have a closedsystem, it poses significant
risks to an organization, whichis something I think many
organizations don't alwaysrealize how close they are,
because such businesses maybecome obsolete as they fail to
adapt to new market realities,customer preferences and
(18:26):
technological advances.
It's vital for businesses tooperate in an open system,
embracing the change andexternal interactions as
opportunities for continuedimprovement and innovation.
Travis Mallett (18:40):
Now, this also leads us to think about how
organizations are organized andcontrolled, and the complex
adaptive system makes us thinkmaybe there's some
self-organization going on.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that, and if that's
something that's desirable, andif so, how can it be implemented
?
Sure.
Dr. Werner van Zyl (18:59):
So self-organization in companies,
research to a process whereorder and structure emerge from
bottom-up interactions among thesystem's components, which can
be the employees or the teams,without any external direction.
The concept is rooted inprinciples of convex adaptive
(19:21):
systems, as we've just seen,where the simple rules and
interactions lead to complex andadaptive outgoes.
You can just think of the humanbody on so many different
levels it self-organizes.
Once you're cut by a knife orquick by needle, the cells in
your body self-organized to healitself without any external
(19:44):
direction.
So to practically implementself-organization, there's a
number of things that companiescan do.
They can empower employees,which means to give the
employees the autonomy to makedecisions and solve problems.
As Dan Pink wrote a beautifulbook on what motivates people
autonomy, mastery and purpose.
(20:06):
Those three things, and hereautonomy really stands out.
So autonomy basically involvestrusting them and allowing
employees to self-manage andtake initiative.
Then also encouragingcollaboration, which fosters a
culture that values teamwork,human communication and
(20:27):
cross-functional collaboration.
And lastly, adapt theleadership style from a
commandable troll leadershipstyle to one that facilitates,
guides and supports autonomousteams.
I'm sure we've both been insome kind of authoritarian
organization that is governedfrom the top down and how that
(20:49):
bifles any growth.
And then, of course, becauseit's a complex environment,
managing the complexity andinterdependence of their actions
can become quite a challenge.
Travis Mallett (21:03):
Yeah.
So, speaking of managing all ofthis, if you let people have
autonomy, I think the concernsome might have is well, isn't
this just going to turn intochaos?
How are you going to actuallycontrol your business, your
strategy, things like that?
And you talk about this idea ofliving on the edge of chaos.
Just talk about how we balancethe difference between
controlling and letting emergentproperties, even if they're
chaotic, emerge.
Dr. Werner van Zyl (21:24):
Yeah, it's absolutely.
I often think about the humanbody as existing on the age of
chaos.
I once read a book aboutmolecular biology in which the
author goes into the details ofthe absolute chaos that goes on
inside the cell.
It is essentially like ahurricane that manifests itself
(21:44):
24 hours a day, seven days aweek, nonstop, and yet we are
organized into a coherent set ofprocesses and cells that are
able to make decisions, thinkand feel.
So I just want to give a briefdefinition of the age of chaos.
In complex systems theory, itrefers to a state of balance
(22:07):
between the older and the chaos.
It's either old and it's asweet spot where systems speak
the exhibit enough order tomaintain coherence and enough
chaos to foster the flexibility,deptability and creativity.
In a business context,operating at the age of chaos
means finding a dynamic balancewhere there's sufficient
(22:31):
structure to ensure thestability and efficiency but, on
the other hand, also enoughopenness to ensure innovation
and adaptation.
So this balance is crucial forbusinesses to thrive in a
rapidly changing environment.
Practitioners, such asconsultants, should be prepared
to iterate rapidly, experimentand pivot strategies based on
(22:54):
real time feedback and change inthe environment.
As problems become more complex,solutions will increasingly
rely on collaboration acrossdifferent disciplines,
industries and even cultures.
So embracing diversity andfostering a collaborative
culture will be key.
(23:15):
So the rapid pace of changewill require that we make an
commitment to continuouslearning and professional
development to stay abreast ofnew theories, technologies and
practices.
So in ASAN's, managers shouldprepare for a future with
adaptability, integratedthinking and respond to complex,
(23:35):
evolving systems or not justadvantages, but absolutely
essential for success andsustainability.
Thank, you.
Travis Mallett (23:45):
This is fascinating.
Before we sign off, can youtell our listeners how they can
find you in your work?
Dr. Werner van Zyl (23:50):
Sure, you can find me on LinkedIn under Dr
Bernadette R Van Zael, and I'dlove to hear from you and
connect with you all.
Thanks again for having me onthe trend.
I really appreciate it, thankyou.
Travis Mallett (24:06):
Hopefully that helps clarify what emergence is
and how it applies to our studyof organizations.
For me, this idea of complexadaptive systems carries two
main takeaways for us asmanagers.
First, it helps us understandjust how little control we
actually have.
I'm reminded of what HarvardBusiness School professor Linda
(24:26):
Hill said in her article titledBecoming the Boss.
HBS Professor Lynda Hill pl (24:30):
New managers typically focus on the
rights and privileges that comewith being the boss they assume
.
The position will give themmore authority, more freedom and
autonomy.
No longer, in the words of one,will they be burdened by the
unreasonable demands of others.
New managers nursing thisassumption face a rude awakening
(24:54):
.
Instead of gaining newauthority, those I have studied
describe finding themselveshemmed in by interdependencies
and meshed in a web ofrelationships, all of whom make
relentless and often conflictingdemands on them.
The fact is, you're really notin control of anything, says one
(25:14):
new manager.
The only time I'm in control iswhen I shut my door and then I
feel I am not doing the job.
I'm not doing the job I'msupposed to be doing, which is
being with the people.
Another new manager observesit's humbling that someone who
(25:35):
works for me could get me fired.
Travis Mallett (25:38):
Due to the inherent unpredictability and
instability of human systems.
Business leaders need tounderstand that we don't have as
much control as we would liketo think.
Speaking of instability, thatbrings me to my second takeaway.
Think back to the butterflyeffect, the idea that the flap
of a butterfly's wings couldcause nonlinear effects that
change the weather.
(25:59):
As I said, climate systems arenot exactly that unstable.
But why is that?
After all, airflow dynamics arestrongly nonlinear.
I'm not a meteorologist orphysicist, but recent studies
suggest that climate models haveterms which would tend to
dampen out small perturbationslike that.
And what are those terms?
(26:20):
This is, of course, highlysimplified, but we can imagine
that mountains and othergeographical features, along
with the rhythm of the sun'srays, play a much larger role in
the formation of large climateconditions than a butterfly's
wings.
In the same way, humanorganizations have many systems,
structures, processes andelements of company culture
(26:40):
which help hold the organizationtogether and keep the whole
thing from descending into chaos.
These are the performancereviews, regular work schedules,
shared values, expectedbehavior in a professional
environment, unspoken rules, jobdescriptions and pay stubs, and
one of our jobs as managers isto build and maintain the glue
(27:01):
which keeps the organization onthe edge of chaos, as Dr Van
Ziel said.
So that wraps up ourintroduction to emergence
organizations and living systems, or does it?
I feel that something ismissing.
Although the idea of complexadaptive systems opens a whole
new world for us to explore, itcan also be a very abstract
concept, somewhat difficult tograsp onto, and often, when
(27:24):
dealing with complex topics likethis, it's useful to have an
analogy or metaphor for us tokeep in mind, provided we
recognize their limitations andboundaries of efficacy.
Let's give Ryan McCready a callagain to see if he can help.
We heard from Ryan in thetrailer episode as a doctoral
candidate at William JamesCollege studying the
intersection of neuroscience andleadership.
(27:44):
He might have a usefulperspective to offer.
Hi, ryan, and welcome back tothe show.
Travis, thanks for having meback again.
Quick question for you.
In today's episode we'refurther exploring the idea of
organizations as living systems,and I'm wondering if you have
any ways of thinking about thisthat could help our listeners
latch on to the idea, sinceit'll provide a foundation for
(28:05):
future episodes.
Ryan McCreedy (28:06):
So it's very easy for folks to try to use
organizations as a living system.
A lot of people like say thatthere's organs and organelles
and that it's like a body andthat's the boundary.
Sometimes that's effective, butwhat's really interesting is in
complex, adaptive systems itdefies the logic of that
tradition.
The general concept oforganization in the mind is that
(28:27):
every individual maps socialsystems within their mind.
They have a model or aframework or a representation
that mirrors the external worldImperfectly.
I want to be clear because wehave a lot of assumptions.
One of my favorite people isMichael Graziano from Princeton
and he has spent time on atheory of consciousness and
(28:47):
essentially his theory ofconsciousness is that you have
these mental models of thesesocial systems within your mind.
You also have a mental model ofyourself in your mind.
In a way, consciousness is yourability to interact with your
mental model of self in playscenarios with social systems,
ie other mental models of otherpeople and or the groups that
they recognize.
(29:08):
That's what's happening rightnow when you think about what's
Ryan going to say next.
What's going to happen latertonight with my significant
other over dinner.
What's going to happen when Iwalk out of this room and I go
beat with the rest of myorganization.
We are such a social creature.
There were always trying tomake those mental models work
together.
So they act in nodes.
So play with me.
Here you have these littlemental models and they have
(29:29):
little connections between themand we're always trying to
figure out what they're doing.
What's fascinating is that thatpretty much describes a neural
network, and those mental modelssit within parts of our minds
and we have circuits that areconstantly doing that.
When you look at anorganization and you look how
they communicate with oneanother, it actually does almost
the same thing.
There's a concept calledorganizational network analysis.
(29:49):
You can see who's talking towho, how they're talking to each
other, how often they'retalking to each other, etc.
It's a reality of that samemental model in the same way.
I think it would be processor.
What's interesting about thatis that at a very deep level,
you could assume that everybodyhas these circuits that are
firing.
They're similar, but they're alittle imperfect from one
another.
What's super fascinating one ofmy most favorite things is in
(30:12):
physiological synchrony orinterbrain synchrony.
So when we get to the grouplevel, there's actually
different things that can happen, where we mirror one another,
but not just two people.
We mirror all the people.
You will see us actually haveour brain waves start to sink
and get in phase with oneanother.
I'm talking about, within amillisecond, very, very, very
precise brain wavesynchronization.
(30:35):
We have done studies on this andthat interbrain synchrony can
predict how close people are inthat organizational network that
I was just talking about.
It can take complete strangers.
Think of college students thatare just starting freshman year
and they watch an introductoryvideo at different times.
If their brains are moreclosely in sync while they're
watching that video, it predictshow close they'll be in that
(30:57):
social network later on in thatsame college career.
You can predict friendshipswith this.
It goes even further than that.
If you get people withcompletely different heart rates
, different brain waveshappening at different times,
you get them into a room.
You do some simple exercises,things like mirroring.
If you hold up your handslistening to music, everybody's
listening the same BPM.
(31:17):
Eye contact, sometimes physicaltouch, actually increases
oxytone, which is another partof what we study.
All of those things willactually enhance sense of
connection and alignment.
But not group thought, notgroup think.
So when you're dealing withsome of these really really,
really tricky things.
By getting people tosynchronize that way, we
actually move past some of thestorming and we allow for
(31:39):
productive storming.
We allow for people to actuallywork through some really tricky
problems with one other, and sowhat's cool about that is, say
you have a dysfunctional group.
I'll be designing interventionswith those things in mind, such
that subconsciously, thesefolks start to become more
physiologically in sync, whichallows for productive dialogue
where they can actually workthrough some of their
(32:01):
disagreements, become morealigned and have better outcomes
and feel more connected at avery deep physiological level.
Travis Mallett (32:09):
Got it.
Thanks, ryan.
Hope to have you back on theshow soon.
So just to summarize, westarted in episode one by
seeking to understand what anorganization is.
Katie Livingston dispelled themyths of organizations as
machines for us and led us tothis idea of organizations as
living systems, which has allkinds of implications for
(32:29):
management.
But what kind of living systemsare we talking about?
Dr Van Zil explained to us,when we get into the nitty
gritty details of how anorganization works, we're really
working with something called acomplex adaptive system.
And finally, ryan McCready justexplained to us what kind of
living system we should bethinking about.
The closest analogy turns outto be the human brain.
(32:52):
Hang on to these ideas, becausethey're going to provide the
foundation for many of ourupcoming episodes.
So what's next?
If we're going to studyorganizations and if
organizations are complexadaptive systems much like
neural networks, it makes senseto start by studying the neurons
themselves, the behavior of thepeople which make up an
(33:14):
organization.
In management theory, this iscalled organizational behavior,
and we'll dive into it startingnext week and along the way
we're going to be collecting alot of tools for our management
toolboxes, while developing adeeper understanding of the
theory that underlies thosetools.
With that, thank you for tuningin to the management theory
toolbox, your top destinationfor the behind the scenes of
(33:37):
management and business theory.
As always, each episode isbased on the latest and most
robust management theory and youcan download the show notes to
find references and learn more.
Until next time, keep learning,keep growing and keep building
your management theory toolbox.
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