February 7, 2024 • 24 mins
Looking to dramatically elevate your organization’s performance metrics? Brace yourselves as we embark on a deep-dive into the riveting world of Positive Organizational Behavior (POB). We'll unravel the intriguing connection between organizational health, self-efficacy, team-efficacy, and success. Imagine your organization as a living system, needing a nurturing touch to blossom to its full potential. We explore how leaders can cultivate this environment using POB, fostering robust relationships and positive psychological capital.
Let's also venture into the shadows with our guest Ryan McCreedy, a seasoned organizational effectiveness consultant and teaching fellow at Harvard University. Ever considered job satisfaction to be more than just a dopamine hit? We navigate the concept of eudaimonic well-being and how it serves as a more accurate measure of job satisfaction. Lastly, prepare to rethink traditional management concepts as we spotlight High-Involvement Management and its connection to POB. Prepare for an insightful journey that will transform your perspective on organizational health and success.
Ryan T. W. McCreedy [Guest], is a Leadership and Organizational Psychology scholar-practitioner based in Cambridge, Massachusetts, dedicated to creating inclusive, equitable workforces and economic systems. He works as a Principal Organizational Effectiveness Consultant at Slalom Consulting in Boston, focusing on talent and organizational development for Fortune 100 clients, and leads Slalom's global Leadership and Team Development capabilities. With a background in engineering and behavioral sciences, Ryan has contributed to transformative changes in various industries. He also engages in organizational behavior research and helps teach graduate courses at Harvard. Ryan holds several degrees, including a B.S. from George Mason University, an A.L.M from Harvard Extension School, and is pursuing a doctoral degree at William James College focusing in applications of neuroscience in workplaces. Beyond his professional life, he enjoys brewing beer, cooking, music, philosophical discussions, and traveling with his wife Hannah.
Travis C. Mallett [Host], received the Masters of Liberal Arts (ALM) in Management from Harvard University Extension School, where he has also earned Professional Graduate Certificates in both Organizational Behavior and Strategic Management. Travis previously received undergraduate degrees in Electrical Engineering, General Mathematics, and Music from Washington State University. He also served as an Engineering Manager at Schweitzer Engineering Laboratories, where he led a team responsible for developing and maintaining SEL's highest-selling product line. An innovative force in engineering, Travis holds numerous patents and has authored papers and books across diverse subjects. His passion for continuous learning and organizational excellence propels him to explore and illuminate the intricacies of management theories. Through his podcast, "The Management Theory Toolbox", he offers valuable insights on effective leadership, business innovation, and strategic methodologies.
Want to dive in even deeper? Visit the full show notes for this episode.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ryan McCreedy (00:01):
That's a crazy stat Correlation, causation, I
don't care, like something'shappening there and I think
we're failing a society tounderstand those things.
We wa typologize and labelthem and call them disorders so
quickly, but I think there'sutility and I think everybody
can develop in a positive way.
Travis Mallett (00:19):
Welcome to another episode of the
Management Theory Toolbox, yourtop destination to understand
the behind the scenes theory ofthe management and business
world.
If you're an entrepreneur,manager or even just someone
interested in the business worldand you're always curious about
the why behind certainmanagement concepts, not just
(00:41):
the what, then you're in theright place.
I'm your host, Travis Mallett,and today we're tackling the
fascinating world of positiveorganizational behavior.
Let's review where we've comefrom and where we're going.
We started by exploring thenature of the universe, and we
noticed this interestingphenomenon that kept popping up
(01:04):
time and time again.
It seems that across both thevast scales of time and space,
the simpler elements combinetogether, and is the result just
a bigger version of thatsimpler element?
No, often we find that newcomplex phenomena arises.
That remarkable feature of theuniverse is called emergence.
(01:29):
We saw it in atoms andmolecules, cells and animals and
eventually in people andorganizations, and this led us
to wonder if organizations arenot these well-oiled machines
that everyone talks about.
(01:46):
I'm not happy, Bob Not happy.
Ask me why.
Ryan McCreedy (01:54):
Okay.
(01:55):
Why, why?
Travis Mallett (01:56):
what Be specific .
(01:57):
Bob, why are you unhappy?
You know, bob, a company islike an enormous clock Is like
an enormous clock.
Yes, precisely, it only worksif all the little cogs mesh
together Now a clock needs to beclean, well-lubricated and
(02:19):
wound tight.
The best clocks have dualmovements, cogs that fit, that
cooperate by design.
I'm being metaphorical, Bob.
You know what I mean bycooperative cogs.
Travis Mallett (02:32):
That engaging snippet from Pixar's critically
acclaimed the Incrediblesportrays the common
misconception of viewingorganizations as mere
mechanistic entities.
We must critically assess thesemetaphors because they shape our
perspective, defining the toolsand strategies we employ in our
(02:53):
businesses.
Should we picture ourbusinesses as an enormous clock,
then we might view ourworkforce merely as replaceable
gears.
Such a mechanical view mighteven limit our strategic
insights Because, believing ourorganization is an enormous
clock, we spend all our timetuning the cogs and gears,
(03:16):
focusing exclusively onproducing the next tick most
efficient, unaware of thehappenings in the external
environment.
Or even if we are thinkingabout the bigger picture concept
, such as strategy, we may thinkwe're merely playing something
as well-defined as a chess game,as highlighted in our previous
(03:36):
episode.
However, by envisioningorganizations as living systems
akin to neural networks orintricate brains, our approach
undergoes a revolutionarytransformation.
Recognizing that our businessescan evolve, adapt and exhibit
characteristics of health orsickness, our interactions and
(03:57):
methodologies inevitably change.
Consider our health, forinstance.
When parts of our body like ourheart or liver are compromised,
it affects our overall healthand performance.
If our living system's analogyis worth its salt, then we might
hypothesize that we'd find asimilar relationship between
(04:17):
health and performance inorganizations.
Let's find out.
(04:22):
Over the past decade, we've analyzed the performance of
several hundred companies.
What we've found is that ourorganizational health index
actually correlates very highlywith operational and financial
performance.
So what we've seen is thatcompanies that score high on our
organizational health indexalso disproportionately
(04:42):
outperform on operational andfinancial performance as well.
So there's a very clear linkbetween what we call
organizational health andperformance.
Travis Mallett (04:50):
That was Oliver Tonbee, a senior partner at
McKinsey Company, whose researchfound that companies with a
high organizational health indexgenerated total returns to
shareholders three times higherthan those of unhealthy ones.
This reinforces our proposition.
Envisioning organizations asliving entities holds
(05:12):
significant real-worldimplications.
While the physical health ofemployees evidently plays a
pivotal role, what about theirpsychological well-being?
Beyond just assessing mentalhealth, what leadership tools
would we incorporate whentreating organizations as living
systems, as opposed tomechanistic models?
Katie Livingston offered aprofound insight in our first
(05:35):
episode.
Embracing the living system'smodel compels us to ponder what
gives life to the system, andwhat grows out of that question
is something called positiveorganizational behavior, a
management style that amplifiesindividual strengths, channeling
them for both personal andorganizational betterment.
(05:56):
This approach shifts the focusInstead of spotlighting what's
wrong, it celebrates what'sright, with individuals At its
core.
Positive OB champions theideology that by cultivating an
individual's innate strengths,we not only benefit them, but
also the larger organization.
(06:16):
It operates on the foundationthat performance soars when
individuals are confident,optimistic and resilient.
Think about it Aren't you moremotivated, more driven, when you
genuinely believe that you canachieve a task at hand?
This concept, known asself-efficacy, is paramount.
(06:36):
For managers, it means guidingtheir teams with faith, ensuring
each member believes in theircapability.
Intriguingly, studies revealthe power of self-efficacy
resonates particularly stronglyin the US, more so than in
several other nations.
But it's not just about theindividual.
As workplaces become morecollaborative, team efficacy
(07:00):
becomes pivotal.
When a team collectivelybelieves in its potential, the
results are often extraordinary.
Let's also discuss leadership inthis context.
Leaders employing positive OBpossess unique ability.
They can frame setbacks, evenmajor crises, in an uplifting
light.
Such leaders naturally forgestronger bonds with their teams
(07:21):
A priceless trait, especiallywhen research points out that a
sizable number of associatesoften harbor distrust towards
their leaders.
So how does one rebuild losttrust?
Positive psychological capitalis the answer.
It's like putting deposits inthe bank.
The more positive deposits youput in over a long period of
time, the more the trust grows.
(07:44):
And in organizations, membersare not only driven but also
remain unwavering in theirpursuit of objectives.
The result Units thatconsistently outperform.
All of this grows out oftending to our business or
organization in the samenurturing way that one would
attend any other living system.
Now, even though this concept isconnected to several deep
(08:06):
philosophical topics, you knowthat at the management theory
toolbox, we always like to digeven deeper under the surface.
Positive OB is actually rootedin something called positive
psychology.
And here, to help us wranglewith the multitude of threads
(08:26):
that always spiral out when wedig under the surface, is Ryan
McCree, a principalorganizational effectiveness
consultant, a teaching fellow atHardberg University and a
doctoral candidate researchinghow neuroscience informs
leadership and organizationalstudies.
Hi, ryan, and welcome back tothe show.
Hey, travis, it's always apleasure.
In today's episode we'retalking about positive
(08:49):
psychology and I'm wondering ifyou can tell us a bit about the
concept of positive psychologyand some about the history of
that idea.
Ryan McCreedy (08:58):
Positive psychology is largely rid of the
idea of ensuring that we aremirroring human systems and we
are understanding things likemindfulness and depth of
elevating human consciousness.
Some of this comes from a lotof philosophy.
There's a lot of recentphilosophy in the 60s and 70s of
how we can look at socialsystems a little bit differently
(09:20):
than the way that the scienceshad originally made them happen.
If anybody's interested inpostmodernism and they're
interested in Foucault and so on, it's like we've created these
police state mentalities oftenand they show up and we say that
they mirror over and over againand we keep repeating those
cycles.
So a lot of the movement ofpostmodernism is to get away
(09:42):
from labeling things andenhancing division and creating
more power dynamics that repressand push people away from the
norm, and it moves towards moreunifying of saying why can't we
say that there is gradients, notlabels?
But there are gradients, right,there are spectrums, and those
differences are things that wecan employ in positive ways and
(10:06):
each of us provides valuebecause of those gradients.
But a lot of it sometimes getssimplified down into uncovering
some of the darker aspects ofbusiness and some of the evil
things that we see incommonalities in that way too.
Again, it depends I'm sorry,I'm putting it out there, but it
depends who you're talking towhat positive psychology means.
Travis Mallett (10:24):
Now we've brought positive psychology into
the conversation, based on atheoretical connection with the
idea of living systems.
But is there any evidence thatpositive psychology is useful in
an organizational setting?
Ryan McCreedy (10:37):
So what's been really interesting these past
few years, specifically withCOVID and some of the racial
tensions as well, we have aconfluence of situations where
talking about mental health andhuman cognition and performance
and well-being is now in thefore, as is talking about
identity and the breadth ofdiversity and how we address
(10:59):
those sorts of things.
Very interestingly, there'sresearch that we are currently
conducting I've done preliminaryresearch but to give you an
example of things about positivepsychology that have profound
impacts, is that behaviorspsychologically safe behaviors
reduce burnout and increasesense of inclusion and belonging
at the same time.
Here's what's fascinating,though Burnout reduction of
(11:21):
burnout, enhancing of inclusionand belonging are not strongly
correlated with what I'm outthere in that same exact data
set, Meaning that you can prettymuch say that psychologically
safe behaviors themselvesactually help.
Two disparate things happenthat are both really a part of
core things that we talk aboutin positive psychology.
Sometimes that's what we'regetting at.
We're talking about socialsystems and how complicated they
(11:42):
are, but what are some of thefoundational things that can
help impact any positive waymultiple facets of that social
system?
Travis Mallett (11:51):
How does positive psychology play a role
in, let's say, the darker issuesof the business world?
Are there any situations wherewe have to fall back on more
traditional tools becausepositive psychology doesn't seem
to work?
Ryan McCreedy (12:04):
Yeah, I think about this often because I'm
using the term liberalism in aphilosophical sense, but let's
say liberalism or evenpostmodernism.
Those theories and practicehave a bit of a privilege to
them.
You have to be of a certaineducational class and the social
system that the organizationthat we're talking about has to
have the right resourcing inorder to address some of these
(12:25):
things.
I don't think any of us wouldprobably say that those darker
things or traditional stick typeof mentalities and, honestly,
even carrots to be honest withyou, that's another thing that
we could get into.
We would never say that thoseare the most effective in every
situation or the worst in everysituation.
It's a highly dependent andnuanced thing.
(12:46):
I think there's some thingsthat we haven't figured out as a
society, though.
What I mean by that is when wethink of dark leadership and the
dark triad and how that showsup, and the stats are extremely
high three times higher ofhaving a dark triad in an
executive position than youwould in the normal population.
That's a crazy stat Correlation, causation.
(13:07):
I don't care.
Something's happening there.
I think we're failing at societyto understand those things.
wto w to ize them and callthem disorders so quickly.
I'm not a clinician, so I havea lot of fortune in not having
to put those labels on people.
But I think there's utility andI think everybody can develop
in a positive way.
(13:28):
I think that's important for usto understand is just because
it doesn't fit the normative wayour social systems work today
and our organizations work todaydoesn't mean that there's not a
really valuable way to redirectsome of those capabilities,
some of those ways of thinking,et cetera.
I don't think collegepsychology always gets there.
I think it can do better,because it claims that there's a
right and there's a wrong way.
(13:49):
I think it's a little bit morenuanced.
Travis Mallett (13:51):
So I'm going to play devil's advocate here and
push that question a bit more.
We're talking about positivepsychology in relation to the
idea of living systems andasking what gives life to the
system, and positive psychologyis, in a way, what grows out of
asking that question.
Now here's the tricky part whenwe think about people with high
(14:13):
levels of the dark triad and Iguess I should tell our
listeners what that is, sincewe're going to be talking about
it in a future episode the darktriad is in contrast to many of
the personality traits we'refamiliar with, like extroversion
, conscientiousness,agreeableness and so on.
The dark triad is things likepsychopathy or lack of empathy,
(14:35):
machiavellianism or the degreeto which someone feels pleasure
when manipulating or deceivingothers, or exhibits strong
self-interest and grandiosenarcissism or a feeling of
self-importance.
So back to my question.
If we're asking what gives lifeto the system and the system in
question is one that revels inthe darker side of humanity then
(14:55):
is positive psychology reallywhat we want to use there?
Would that actually be good foreveryone else?
Ryan McCreedy (15:02):
Well, I think you can make the argument that if
you have competition with highdark triad tendencies coming in
hot, trying to be hot-style withyou, that might be the best
person on your ship tounderstand their tactic.
Coming at you, in fact, theymight be your front-line person
that you want to put out thereand say, hey, you got some of
the qualities.
You're thinking their way.
What can we do or fight back?
(15:23):
So again, I think it's just somuch more nuanced than we give
credit to.
Another interesting thing is wetalk about in the workplace.
We talk about job satisfactionand happiness all the time, and
sometimes engagement too.
We use that very loosely forthe reality of engagement.
We'll have to pull anotherconversation, but anyways, what
I'm getting at is a lot of thatis hedonic.
That's hedonic.
Well-being, that's likedopamine, it's the quick shit.
(15:45):
Yeah, unhappy, yeah, I'm happy,I'm happy.
But that's a very limited pointof view for what humans crave.
Most humans crave a little bitof a challenge.
They want to think it's longerterm and more meaningful.
Sure, there's people withcompulsive disorders or
compulsive tendencies themselvesand they might like that
shorter term fixed too.
But the average human wants asense of meaning and purpose and
(16:08):
something is strived towards,that beacon at lighthouse, that
North Star that's calledeudaimonic well-being, the sense
that I'm growing, I'm beingchallenged, I'm stretching
enough just to the 85%.
How you need both and I thinkthat's another thing is this has
become such a Western thing.
It's very interesting because Ienjoy Eastern philosophy on this
it's that Western society hassaid any inconvenience, anything
(16:30):
that causes pain or suffering,we need to remove.
And I would even go out alllimb to say this is why we have
dependencies on opioids etc.
We have created a culture where, literally, we introduced the
scale of you always have to beover on the smiley face, you
can't ever be on the frowny face.
That's the problem.
That's not the end of yank,that's not the reality of the
universe, right?
Everything just is.
(16:50):
What I like about eudaimonicwell-being is that offering
folks struggle with the conceptof personal rewarding.
Personal growth allows them tothen grow the culture of
themselves and the social systemwith it, far more than just
satisfaction.
Very easy, and in fact I'd saymost organizations are lazy if
they're not thinking about those.
Travis Mallett (17:11):
That makes a lot of sense.
So you're saying we shouldn'tbe so quick to dismiss the role
that positive psychology canplay when dealing with the dark
triad, because it encourages usto find ways to use the
strengths of those people.
They can still play a positiverole in the world and in our
organizations, but positivepsychology just encourages us to
(17:31):
figure out what that role is.
Very interesting and, by theway, I'm sure our listeners are
expecting this I thought it wasgreat that you brought in so
many different philosophicalideas to the conversation.
Totally gonna have tospringboard into some
philosophical tangents.
Ryan McCreedy (17:48):
By the way, in the doctoral program up in we
spent a lot of time looking atNative American culture, but
also that was when we look atlots of different logical people
that created logic structuresbeyond our Western point of view
, and there's a lot to learnthere because there's a lot of
diversity that could be had outthere in terms of way that
thinking at organ.
Travis Mallett (18:07):
That sounds really interesting.
Thanks again for joining us on.
Ryan McCreedy (18:11):
Yeah, thank you very much.
This is such a pleasure.
Travis Mallett (18:16):
Well, that was a fascinating discussion.
So we only have time left toeither debrief the discussion or
push the envelope even furtherwith one of those coveted
philosophical tangents.
But I'll let the audiencedecide.
Sending out the survey now.
And survey says overwhelminglypeople want a philosophical
(18:37):
tangent.
All right then.
Of course I just made that upbecause I really want a
philosophical tangent and I'mnot ashamed to admit it.
And so where do we start?
So many threads to pull on?
We could talk about modernismversus postmodernism, but let's
choose something a littledifferent.
How about pottery?
That's right.
(18:59):
Ceramics, but before you decideto skip this, believe me when I
say you have no idea whatyou'll be missing out on.
So here it goes.
In the serene landscapes ofsouthern Japan, during a time
when simplicity in art wascherished, there, traveled
Senorikyu, a revered proponentof the Wabi-Sabi philosophy.
(19:23):
This philosophy embraced thebeauty in the simple, the aged
and the naturally imperfect.
Once, during his travels, alocal host, eager to impress the
esteemed guest, invited Rikyuto a dinner.
The centerpiece of the eveningwas not the lavish spread but an
intricately designed antiquetea jar the host had recently
(19:46):
acquired from China.
The jar, with its history andexpense, was expected to capture
Rikyu's admiration.
However, as the evening wore on, rikyu's attention seemed to
drift elsewhere.
Instead of the opulent tea jar,he seemed engrossed in a simple
scene outdoors a lone branchgracefully swaying in the gentle
(20:10):
evening breeze.
The host's anticipation turnedto despair.
He had hoped for validationfrom someone he deeply respected
, but his prized possession wentunnoticed In a moment of
overwhelming emotion.
Once the dinner and his guestof honor had departed, the host
shattered the tea jar infrustration and retreated to his
(20:32):
chambers.
Witnessing this act, the otherguests gathered the fragmented
pieces.
With great care and respect forboth the jar and their host's
sentiments, they employed theart of kintsugi, piecing the jar
back together using goldlacquer.
On Rikyu's subsequent visit,his gaze fell upon the now gold
(20:56):
veined jar.
With a gentle smile and thewisdom of one who sees beauty
beyond the obvious, he remarkednow it's magnificent.
For centuries, zen mastersadvocated a unique approach to
objects we often perceive asbroken or damaged.
They believed that items likepots, cups and bowls, once
(21:18):
damaged, should not be tossedaway.
Instead, they should becelebrated and mended with great
care.
This practice, rich insymbolism, reconciles us with
the imperfections andadversity's timebrings Into the
world of kintsugi, where kintstands for gold and tsugi
signifies joining together, or,quite literally, to join with
(21:43):
gold.
Rather than shunning the cracksand damages, kintsugi
celebrates them, adorning themwith lacquer mixed with the
finest gold powder.
Instead of hiding imperfections, they become focal points
infused with gold and glory,embracing the philosophical
depth and beauty of scars.
In an era that often reveresperfection, kintsugi whispers a
(22:07):
timeless wisdom to see andcherish the golden scars of
history, to acknowledge thebeauty in the broken and the
reborn, and to embrace life inall its imperfect magnificence.
Kintsugi is more than just aphysical restoration.
It's a profound metaphor forthe philosophy of positive
(22:29):
psychology.
Just as kintsugi highlightsfractures with golden seams,
celebrating them as an intrinsicpart of an object's history,
positive psychology encouragesus to embrace our challenges,
failures and vulnerabilities.
Instead of perceiving setbacksas blemishes to be concealed, we
are taught to view them asessential facets of our personal
(22:51):
narrative, shaping ourresilience and growth.
The golden lacquer in kintsugisymbolizes the transformative
power of acceptance, healing andgrowth.
Likewise, positive psychologyunderscores the importance of
recognizing and valuing ourimperfections, understanding
that they can be the foundationfor strength, wisdom and a
(23:13):
deeper sense of fulfillment inlife.
As we continue our journey ofstudying organizational behavior
, it's helpful to have the ideasof positive psychology or
positive organizational behaviorin the back of our minds so
that we can use that as a toolto flavor or enhance the
theories that stem from studyinghow people and teams behave in
(23:33):
organizations.
But positive organizationalbehavior is more than just
seasoning for our big stew ofmanagement theories.
It actually results in aspecific constellation of
management practices calledhigh-involvement management, and
we'll discuss that in the nextepisode.
So with that, thank you fortuning in to the Management
(23:57):
Theory Toolbox, your topdestination for the
behind-the-scenes of managementand business theory.
As always, each episode isbased on the latest and most
robust management theory and youcan download the show notes to
find references and learn more.
Join us next time for anexploration of the more
practical side of managementtheory.
Keep learning, keep growing andkeep building your management
(24:21):
theory toolbox.
That's a crazy stat Correlation, causation, I
don't care, like something'shappening there and I think
we're failing a society tounderstand those things.
We wa typologize and labelthem and call them disorders so
quickly, but I think there'sutility and I think everybody
can develop in a positive way.
Travis Mallett (00:19):
Welcome to another episode of the
Management Theory Toolbox, yourtop destination to understand
the behind the scenes theory ofthe management and business
world.
If you're an entrepreneur,manager or even just someone
interested in the business worldand you're always curious about
the why behind certainmanagement concepts, not just
(00:41):
the what, then you're in theright place.
I'm your host, Travis Mallett,and today we're tackling the
fascinating world of positiveorganizational behavior.
Let's review where we've comefrom and where we're going.
We started by exploring thenature of the universe, and we
noticed this interestingphenomenon that kept popping up
(01:04):
time and time again.
It seems that across both thevast scales of time and space,
the simpler elements combinetogether, and is the result just
a bigger version of thatsimpler element?
No, often we find that newcomplex phenomena arises.
That remarkable feature of theuniverse is called emergence.
(01:29):
We saw it in atoms andmolecules, cells and animals and
eventually in people andorganizations, and this led us
to wonder if organizations arenot these well-oiled machines
that everyone talks about.
(01:46):
I'm not happy, Bob Not happy.
Ask me why.
Ryan McCreedy (01:54):
Okay.
(01:55):
Why, why?
Travis Mallett (01:56):
what Be specific .
(01:57):
Bob, why are you unhappy?
You know, bob, a company islike an enormous clock Is like
an enormous clock.
Yes, precisely, it only worksif all the little cogs mesh
together Now a clock needs to beclean, well-lubricated and
(02:19):
wound tight.
The best clocks have dualmovements, cogs that fit, that
cooperate by design.
I'm being metaphorical, Bob.
You know what I mean bycooperative cogs.
Travis Mallett (02:32):
That engaging snippet from Pixar's critically
acclaimed the Incrediblesportrays the common
misconception of viewingorganizations as mere
mechanistic entities.
We must critically assess thesemetaphors because they shape our
perspective, defining the toolsand strategies we employ in our
(02:53):
businesses.
Should we picture ourbusinesses as an enormous clock,
then we might view ourworkforce merely as replaceable
gears.
Such a mechanical view mighteven limit our strategic
insights Because, believing ourorganization is an enormous
clock, we spend all our timetuning the cogs and gears,
(03:16):
focusing exclusively onproducing the next tick most
efficient, unaware of thehappenings in the external
environment.
Or even if we are thinkingabout the bigger picture concept
, such as strategy, we may thinkwe're merely playing something
as well-defined as a chess game,as highlighted in our previous
(03:36):
episode.
However, by envisioningorganizations as living systems
akin to neural networks orintricate brains, our approach
undergoes a revolutionarytransformation.
Recognizing that our businessescan evolve, adapt and exhibit
characteristics of health orsickness, our interactions and
(03:57):
methodologies inevitably change.
Consider our health, forinstance.
When parts of our body like ourheart or liver are compromised,
it affects our overall healthand performance.
If our living system's analogyis worth its salt, then we might
hypothesize that we'd find asimilar relationship between
(04:17):
health and performance inorganizations.
Let's find out.
(04:22):
Over the past decade, we've analyzed the performance of
several hundred companies.
What we've found is that ourorganizational health index
actually correlates very highlywith operational and financial
performance.
So what we've seen is thatcompanies that score high on our
organizational health indexalso disproportionately
(04:42):
outperform on operational andfinancial performance as well.
So there's a very clear linkbetween what we call
organizational health andperformance.
Travis Mallett (04:50):
That was Oliver Tonbee, a senior partner at
McKinsey Company, whose researchfound that companies with a
high organizational health indexgenerated total returns to
shareholders three times higherthan those of unhealthy ones.
This reinforces our proposition.
Envisioning organizations asliving entities holds
(05:12):
significant real-worldimplications.
While the physical health ofemployees evidently plays a
pivotal role, what about theirpsychological well-being?
Beyond just assessing mentalhealth, what leadership tools
would we incorporate whentreating organizations as living
systems, as opposed tomechanistic models?
Katie Livingston offered aprofound insight in our first
(05:35):
episode.
Embracing the living system'smodel compels us to ponder what
gives life to the system, andwhat grows out of that question
is something called positiveorganizational behavior, a
management style that amplifiesindividual strengths, channeling
them for both personal andorganizational betterment.
(05:56):
This approach shifts the focusInstead of spotlighting what's
wrong, it celebrates what'sright, with individuals At its
core.
Positive OB champions theideology that by cultivating an
individual's innate strengths,we not only benefit them, but
also the larger organization.
(06:16):
It operates on the foundationthat performance soars when
individuals are confident,optimistic and resilient.
Think about it Aren't you moremotivated, more driven, when you
genuinely believe that you canachieve a task at hand?
This concept, known asself-efficacy, is paramount.
(06:36):
For managers, it means guidingtheir teams with faith, ensuring
each member believes in theircapability.
Intriguingly, studies revealthe power of self-efficacy
resonates particularly stronglyin the US, more so than in
several other nations.
But it's not just about theindividual.
As workplaces become morecollaborative, team efficacy
(07:00):
becomes pivotal.
When a team collectivelybelieves in its potential, the
results are often extraordinary.
Let's also discuss leadership inthis context.
Leaders employing positive OBpossess unique ability.
They can frame setbacks, evenmajor crises, in an uplifting
light.
Such leaders naturally forgestronger bonds with their teams
(07:21):
A priceless trait, especiallywhen research points out that a
sizable number of associatesoften harbor distrust towards
their leaders.
So how does one rebuild losttrust?
Positive psychological capitalis the answer.
It's like putting deposits inthe bank.
The more positive deposits youput in over a long period of
time, the more the trust grows.
(07:44):
And in organizations, membersare not only driven but also
remain unwavering in theirpursuit of objectives.
The result Units thatconsistently outperform.
All of this grows out oftending to our business or
organization in the samenurturing way that one would
attend any other living system.
Now, even though this concept isconnected to several deep
(08:06):
philosophical topics, you knowthat at the management theory
toolbox, we always like to digeven deeper under the surface.
Positive OB is actually rootedin something called positive
psychology.
And here, to help us wranglewith the multitude of threads
(08:26):
that always spiral out when wedig under the surface, is Ryan
McCree, a principalorganizational effectiveness
consultant, a teaching fellow atHardberg University and a
doctoral candidate researchinghow neuroscience informs
leadership and organizationalstudies.
Hi, ryan, and welcome back tothe show.
Hey, travis, it's always apleasure.
In today's episode we'retalking about positive
(08:49):
psychology and I'm wondering ifyou can tell us a bit about the
concept of positive psychologyand some about the history of
that idea.
Ryan McCreedy (08:58):
Positive psychology is largely rid of the
idea of ensuring that we aremirroring human systems and we
are understanding things likemindfulness and depth of
elevating human consciousness.
Some of this comes from a lotof philosophy.
There's a lot of recentphilosophy in the 60s and 70s of
how we can look at socialsystems a little bit differently
(09:20):
than the way that the scienceshad originally made them happen.
If anybody's interested inpostmodernism and they're
interested in Foucault and so on, it's like we've created these
police state mentalities oftenand they show up and we say that
they mirror over and over againand we keep repeating those
cycles.
So a lot of the movement ofpostmodernism is to get away
(09:42):
from labeling things andenhancing division and creating
more power dynamics that repressand push people away from the
norm, and it moves towards moreunifying of saying why can't we
say that there is gradients, notlabels?
But there are gradients, right,there are spectrums, and those
differences are things that wecan employ in positive ways and
(10:06):
each of us provides valuebecause of those gradients.
But a lot of it sometimes getssimplified down into uncovering
some of the darker aspects ofbusiness and some of the evil
things that we see incommonalities in that way too.
Again, it depends I'm sorry,I'm putting it out there, but it
depends who you're talking towhat positive psychology means.
Travis Mallett (10:24):
Now we've brought positive psychology into
the conversation, based on atheoretical connection with the
idea of living systems.
But is there any evidence thatpositive psychology is useful in
an organizational setting?
Ryan McCreedy (10:37):
So what's been really interesting these past
few years, specifically withCOVID and some of the racial
tensions as well, we have aconfluence of situations where
talking about mental health andhuman cognition and performance
and well-being is now in thefore, as is talking about
identity and the breadth ofdiversity and how we address
(10:59):
those sorts of things.
Very interestingly, there'sresearch that we are currently
conducting I've done preliminaryresearch but to give you an
example of things about positivepsychology that have profound
impacts, is that behaviorspsychologically safe behaviors
reduce burnout and increasesense of inclusion and belonging
at the same time.
Here's what's fascinating,though Burnout reduction of
(11:21):
burnout, enhancing of inclusionand belonging are not strongly
correlated with what I'm outthere in that same exact data
set, Meaning that you can prettymuch say that psychologically
safe behaviors themselvesactually help.
Two disparate things happenthat are both really a part of
core things that we talk aboutin positive psychology.
Sometimes that's what we'regetting at.
We're talking about socialsystems and how complicated they
(11:42):
are, but what are some of thefoundational things that can
help impact any positive waymultiple facets of that social
system?
Travis Mallett (11:51):
How does positive psychology play a role
in, let's say, the darker issuesof the business world?
Are there any situations wherewe have to fall back on more
traditional tools becausepositive psychology doesn't seem
to work?
Ryan McCreedy (12:04):
Yeah, I think about this often because I'm
using the term liberalism in aphilosophical sense, but let's
say liberalism or evenpostmodernism.
Those theories and practicehave a bit of a privilege to
them.
You have to be of a certaineducational class and the social
system that the organizationthat we're talking about has to
have the right resourcing inorder to address some of these
(12:25):
things.
I don't think any of us wouldprobably say that those darker
things or traditional stick typeof mentalities and, honestly,
even carrots to be honest withyou, that's another thing that
we could get into.
We would never say that thoseare the most effective in every
situation or the worst in everysituation.
It's a highly dependent andnuanced thing.
(12:46):
I think there's some thingsthat we haven't figured out as a
society, though.
What I mean by that is when wethink of dark leadership and the
dark triad and how that showsup, and the stats are extremely
high three times higher ofhaving a dark triad in an
executive position than youwould in the normal population.
That's a crazy stat Correlation, causation.
(13:07):
I don't care.
Something's happening there.
I think we're failing at societyto understand those things.
wto w to ize them and callthem disorders so quickly.
I'm not a clinician, so I havea lot of fortune in not having
to put those labels on people.
But I think there's utility andI think everybody can develop
in a positive way.
(13:28):
I think that's important for usto understand is just because
it doesn't fit the normative wayour social systems work today
and our organizations work todaydoesn't mean that there's not a
really valuable way to redirectsome of those capabilities,
some of those ways of thinking,et cetera.
I don't think collegepsychology always gets there.
I think it can do better,because it claims that there's a
right and there's a wrong way.
(13:49):
I think it's a little bit morenuanced.
Travis Mallett (13:51):
So I'm going to play devil's advocate here and
push that question a bit more.
We're talking about positivepsychology in relation to the
idea of living systems andasking what gives life to the
system, and positive psychologyis, in a way, what grows out of
asking that question.
Now here's the tricky part whenwe think about people with high
(14:13):
levels of the dark triad and Iguess I should tell our
listeners what that is, sincewe're going to be talking about
it in a future episode the darktriad is in contrast to many of
the personality traits we'refamiliar with, like extroversion
, conscientiousness,agreeableness and so on.
The dark triad is things likepsychopathy or lack of empathy,
(14:35):
machiavellianism or the degreeto which someone feels pleasure
when manipulating or deceivingothers, or exhibits strong
self-interest and grandiosenarcissism or a feeling of
self-importance.
So back to my question.
If we're asking what gives lifeto the system and the system in
question is one that revels inthe darker side of humanity then
(14:55):
is positive psychology reallywhat we want to use there?
Would that actually be good foreveryone else?
Ryan McCreedy (15:02):
Well, I think you can make the argument that if
you have competition with highdark triad tendencies coming in
hot, trying to be hot-style withyou, that might be the best
person on your ship tounderstand their tactic.
Coming at you, in fact, theymight be your front-line person
that you want to put out thereand say, hey, you got some of
the qualities.
You're thinking their way.
What can we do or fight back?
(15:23):
So again, I think it's just somuch more nuanced than we give
credit to.
Another interesting thing is wetalk about in the workplace.
We talk about job satisfactionand happiness all the time, and
sometimes engagement too.
We use that very loosely forthe reality of engagement.
We'll have to pull anotherconversation, but anyways, what
I'm getting at is a lot of thatis hedonic.
That's hedonic.
Well-being, that's likedopamine, it's the quick shit.
(15:45):
Yeah, unhappy, yeah, I'm happy,I'm happy.
But that's a very limited pointof view for what humans crave.
Most humans crave a little bitof a challenge.
They want to think it's longerterm and more meaningful.
Sure, there's people withcompulsive disorders or
compulsive tendencies themselvesand they might like that
shorter term fixed too.
But the average human wants asense of meaning and purpose and
(16:08):
something is strived towards,that beacon at lighthouse, that
North Star that's calledeudaimonic well-being, the sense
that I'm growing, I'm beingchallenged, I'm stretching
enough just to the 85%.
How you need both and I thinkthat's another thing is this has
become such a Western thing.
It's very interesting because Ienjoy Eastern philosophy on this
it's that Western society hassaid any inconvenience, anything
(16:30):
that causes pain or suffering,we need to remove.
And I would even go out alllimb to say this is why we have
dependencies on opioids etc.
We have created a culture where, literally, we introduced the
scale of you always have to beover on the smiley face, you
can't ever be on the frowny face.
That's the problem.
That's not the end of yank,that's not the reality of the
universe, right?
Everything just is.
(16:50):
What I like about eudaimonicwell-being is that offering
folks struggle with the conceptof personal rewarding.
Personal growth allows them tothen grow the culture of
themselves and the social systemwith it, far more than just
satisfaction.
Very easy, and in fact I'd saymost organizations are lazy if
they're not thinking about those.
Travis Mallett (17:11):
That makes a lot of sense.
So you're saying we shouldn'tbe so quick to dismiss the role
that positive psychology canplay when dealing with the dark
triad, because it encourages usto find ways to use the
strengths of those people.
They can still play a positiverole in the world and in our
organizations, but positivepsychology just encourages us to
(17:31):
figure out what that role is.
Very interesting and, by theway, I'm sure our listeners are
expecting this I thought it wasgreat that you brought in so
many different philosophicalideas to the conversation.
Totally gonna have tospringboard into some
philosophical tangents.
Ryan McCreedy (17:48):
By the way, in the doctoral program up in we
spent a lot of time looking atNative American culture, but
also that was when we look atlots of different logical people
that created logic structuresbeyond our Western point of view
, and there's a lot to learnthere because there's a lot of
diversity that could be had outthere in terms of way that
thinking at organ.
Travis Mallett (18:07):
That sounds really interesting.
Thanks again for joining us on.
Ryan McCreedy (18:11):
Yeah, thank you very much.
This is such a pleasure.
Travis Mallett (18:16):
Well, that was a fascinating discussion.
So we only have time left toeither debrief the discussion or
push the envelope even furtherwith one of those coveted
philosophical tangents.
But I'll let the audiencedecide.
Sending out the survey now.
And survey says overwhelminglypeople want a philosophical
(18:37):
tangent.
All right then.
Of course I just made that upbecause I really want a
philosophical tangent and I'mnot ashamed to admit it.
And so where do we start?
So many threads to pull on?
We could talk about modernismversus postmodernism, but let's
choose something a littledifferent.
How about pottery?
That's right.
(18:59):
Ceramics, but before you decideto skip this, believe me when I
say you have no idea whatyou'll be missing out on.
So here it goes.
In the serene landscapes ofsouthern Japan, during a time
when simplicity in art wascherished, there, traveled
Senorikyu, a revered proponentof the Wabi-Sabi philosophy.
(19:23):
This philosophy embraced thebeauty in the simple, the aged
and the naturally imperfect.
Once, during his travels, alocal host, eager to impress the
esteemed guest, invited Rikyuto a dinner.
The centerpiece of the eveningwas not the lavish spread but an
intricately designed antiquetea jar the host had recently
(19:46):
acquired from China.
The jar, with its history andexpense, was expected to capture
Rikyu's admiration.
However, as the evening wore on, rikyu's attention seemed to
drift elsewhere.
Instead of the opulent tea jar,he seemed engrossed in a simple
scene outdoors a lone branchgracefully swaying in the gentle
(20:10):
evening breeze.
The host's anticipation turnedto despair.
He had hoped for validationfrom someone he deeply respected
, but his prized possession wentunnoticed In a moment of
overwhelming emotion.
Once the dinner and his guestof honor had departed, the host
shattered the tea jar infrustration and retreated to his
(20:32):
chambers.
Witnessing this act, the otherguests gathered the fragmented
pieces.
With great care and respect forboth the jar and their host's
sentiments, they employed theart of kintsugi, piecing the jar
back together using goldlacquer.
On Rikyu's subsequent visit,his gaze fell upon the now gold
(20:56):
veined jar.
With a gentle smile and thewisdom of one who sees beauty
beyond the obvious, he remarkednow it's magnificent.
For centuries, zen mastersadvocated a unique approach to
objects we often perceive asbroken or damaged.
They believed that items likepots, cups and bowls, once
(21:18):
damaged, should not be tossedaway.
Instead, they should becelebrated and mended with great
care.
This practice, rich insymbolism, reconciles us with
the imperfections andadversity's timebrings Into the
world of kintsugi, where kintstands for gold and tsugi
signifies joining together, or,quite literally, to join with
(21:43):
gold.
Rather than shunning the cracksand damages, kintsugi
celebrates them, adorning themwith lacquer mixed with the
finest gold powder.
Instead of hiding imperfections, they become focal points
infused with gold and glory,embracing the philosophical
depth and beauty of scars.
In an era that often reveresperfection, kintsugi whispers a
(22:07):
timeless wisdom to see andcherish the golden scars of
history, to acknowledge thebeauty in the broken and the
reborn, and to embrace life inall its imperfect magnificence.
Kintsugi is more than just aphysical restoration.
It's a profound metaphor forthe philosophy of positive
(22:29):
psychology.
Just as kintsugi highlightsfractures with golden seams,
celebrating them as an intrinsicpart of an object's history,
positive psychology encouragesus to embrace our challenges,
failures and vulnerabilities.
Instead of perceiving setbacksas blemishes to be concealed, we
are taught to view them asessential facets of our personal
(22:51):
narrative, shaping ourresilience and growth.
The golden lacquer in kintsugisymbolizes the transformative
power of acceptance, healing andgrowth.
Likewise, positive psychologyunderscores the importance of
recognizing and valuing ourimperfections, understanding
that they can be the foundationfor strength, wisdom and a
(23:13):
deeper sense of fulfillment inlife.
As we continue our journey ofstudying organizational behavior
, it's helpful to have the ideasof positive psychology or
positive organizational behaviorin the back of our minds so
that we can use that as a toolto flavor or enhance the
theories that stem from studyinghow people and teams behave in
(23:33):
organizations.
But positive organizationalbehavior is more than just
seasoning for our big stew ofmanagement theories.
It actually results in aspecific constellation of
management practices calledhigh-involvement management, and
we'll discuss that in the nextepisode.
So with that, thank you fortuning in to the Management
(23:57):
Theory Toolbox, your topdestination for the
behind-the-scenes of managementand business theory.
As always, each episode isbased on the latest and most
robust management theory and youcan download the show notes to
find references and learn more.
Join us next time for anexploration of the more
practical side of managementtheory.
Keep learning, keep growing andkeep building your management
(24:21):
theory toolbox.
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