Ready to unlock the transformative power of High Involvement Management? Prepare yourself for an intense journey through management practices that prioritize value for people and their growth. Our exploration begins with the captivating concept of organizations as living systems, akin to the intricate neural networks of the human brain. As we delve into the principles of positive organizational behavior and positive psychology, you'll encounter practical, intuitive management tools that infuse life into these systems.
Dive further into the episode as we dissect the stark differences between successful and less successful management styles. How can we strike that delicate balance between business necessities and valuing people? Learn about the importance of training and empowerment for new hires, along with the risks and rewards of granting decision-making power to associates.
Robert Lopez, Jr. [Guest] retired from Schweitzer Engineering Laboratories (SEL) after 34 years, having joined as their thirteenth employee in 1987. Starting as a test technician, he rose to senior engineering manager, known for developing reliable products and solving complex equipment issues. Robert valued teamwork and personal growth, both in his professional and personal life, emphasizing community service and mentorship. Post-retirement, he plans to coach youth sports, mentor a robotics team, and teach calculus, while also spending more time with his family. His tenure at SEL is remembered for his dedication to technical excellence and a strong commitment to serving others.
Travis C. Mallett [Host], is a Masters of Liberal Arts (ALM) degree candidate at Harvard University Extension School, where he has also earned Professional Graduate Certificates in both Organizational Behavior and Strategic Management. Travis previously received undergraduate degrees in Electrical Engineering, General Mathematics, and Music from Washington State University. He also served as an Engineering Manager at Schweitzer Engineering Laboratories, where he led a team responsible for developing and maintaining SEL's highest-selling product line. An innovative force in engineering, Travis holds numerous patents and has authored papers and books across diverse subjects. His passion for continuous learning and organizational excellence propels him to explore and illuminate the intricacies of management theories. Through his podcast, "The Management Theory Toolbox", he offers valuable insights on effective leadership, business innovation, and strategic methodologies.
Want to dive in even deeper? Visit the full show notes for this episode.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (00:01):
Too many managers look at the bottom line
meeting efficiency, production,the dollar, as being the thing
that should come first,absolutely not how to manage.
Travis Mallett (00:14):
Welcome back to the Management Theory Toolbox,
your top destination foruncovering the why behind the
management and business concepts.
If you're an executive manager,consultant or business student
and you want to dive deep into ascientifically rooted
discussion of management theory,then you're in the right place.
You didn't know it, but overthe course of our last six
(00:38):
episodes, we've beenmeticulously crafting a
narrative, each segment leadingus closer to a profound
revelation A set of pragmaticand intuitive management tools
called high involvementmanagement.
Now, what comes to mind whenyou think of a highly involved
manager?
Peter Gibbons (Office Spa (00:58):
Hello Peter, what's happening?
We have sort of a problem here.
Yeah, you apparently didn't putone of the new cover sheets on
your TPS reports.
Oh yeah, I'm sorry about that,I forgot.
Yeah, you see, we're puttingthe cover sheets on all TPS
reports now before they go out.
(01:19):
Did you see the memo about this?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I have the memo righthere, I just forgot.
But it's not shipping out tilltomorrow, so there's no problem.
Yeah, if you could just goahead and make sure you do that
from now on, that would be great, and I'll go ahead and make
(01:39):
sure you get another copy ofthat memo.
The Buddha (01:41):
Okay, yeah, no, I have the memo, I've got it.
Travis Mallett (01:44):
That's right.
That was a clip from the 1999comedy Office Space, where in a
tech employee, peter Gibbons isbeing harassed by his superiors
to put a new cover sheet on hisreport.
Hang on to that, because we'llhear again from Peter in a few
minutes.
But is this the kind of highinvolvement management that
we're going to talk about?
(02:04):
Of course not.
Let's take a moment to connectthe dots.
We began by exploring theconcept of emergence in nature,
which naturally led us to thinkof organizations as dynamic
living systems.
Digging deeper, we discoveredthat the closest analogy to
these organizations is not justany living system, but the
(02:26):
intricate neural networks of thehuman brain.
This epiphany has not onlyreshaped our understanding of
organizations, but has alsoimpressed upon us the importance
of the domain of organizationalbehavior.
But the journey of discoverydoes not stop there.
The living systems model oforganizations compels us to ask
(02:48):
not how do we solve this problemor fix that team, but instead
what breathes life into thesesystems?
Part of the answer lies in theburgeoning field of positive
organizational behavior, adiscipline deeply rooted in the
principles of positivepsychology.
Yet a lingering questionremains have all these
(03:09):
discussions culminated in atangible, actionable outcome?
As you might guess, since I'masking that question, the answer
is probably yes.
This is, after all, theManagement Theory Toolbox, and
today's episode develops andemphasizes the toolbox side of
things.
But to get there, we need justone more piece of the puzzle, a
(03:32):
piece that we'll find byrevisiting the idea of
organizations as neural networks.
Let's imagine together ourorganization is a neural network
.
Neurons are connected, synapsesfiring between them,
information being shared, stored, bonds being strengthened or
(03:53):
weakened, reshaped and redefined.
Just like each neuron in thebrain has its unique potential,
each individual in ourorganization is important, but
in the brain there's also thefact that it's the strength and
number of a neuron's synapticconnections that determine its
influence.
This mirrors how everyindividual in an organization
(04:16):
has intrinsic strengths andvirtues, both core tenets of
positive psychology.
Yet it's their collaborationsand connections within the
system that amplify their impact, and that's the missing piece.
The concept of organizations asneural networks and the ideas of
positive psychology can bedistilled in a major practical
(04:39):
takeaway.
Management at all levels of anorganization should value their
people and their managementtechniques should encourage the
growth and strengths of theirpeople, both as individuals and
in the context of theorganization.
But this analogy is powerfulenough for us to be even more
precise than that, the brain'sadaptability, or neural
(05:02):
plasticity, mirrors the growthmindset, also a cornerstone of
positive psychology.
Just as the brain recruitsneurons best suited for tasks,
organizations seek individualswho not only possess strengths,
but also display a growthmindset, enhancing the overall
dynamics.
And, as managers or businessowners, we should also be
(05:25):
careful and mindful whenrecruiting individuals to join
our organization.
When we learn, our brainstrengthens specific neural
pathways.
This process is akin to thejourney towards mastery, a
concept in positive psychology,where individuals seek profound
competence in their domains.
(05:45):
Training in organizations isabout reinforcing behaviors and
skills, ensuring individuals arenot just competent, but moving
towards mastery in alignmentwith the organization's goals.
We can't just hire someone andthrow them into the fire and
hope for the best.
Our view of organizations asneural networks suggests
(06:06):
something far more intentionaland mindful, and it goes way
beyond just providing standard,boring onboarding training.
Individuals need to be boththoroughly trained and
integrated with the socialenvironment of the organization.
The more synaptic connections anew hire can develop, the more
effective they will be to become.
(06:27):
The brain's decentralizedfunctions also reflect the
positive psychology principle ofautonomy the desire to have
control over our actions andbehaviors.
By empowering individuals inorganizations, you're granting
them autonomy, mimicking thebrain's distributed processing
and ensuring a more adaptive andcomprehensive approach to
(06:49):
challenges.
Neurons communicate throughintricate networks, ensuring
that information is relayed andprocessed where needed.
This mirrors the positivepsychology emphasis on building
positive relationships and opencommunication In organizations.
Transparent communicationensures everyone is informed,
fostering trust and positiverelational dynamics.
(07:11):
This means that individuals arenot just connected socially in
the organizations, but connectedwith the proper strains of
information to effectively dotheir job.
And, lastly, the brain's rewardsystem, driven by dopamine,
reinforces beneficial behaviors.
This aligns with positivereinforcement.
Incentive-based compensation inorganizations rewards behaviors
(07:33):
that benefit the entire system,ensuring motivation and
alignment with organizationalobjectives while fostering a
sense of accomplishment andpositivity.
This pushes us to carefullyconsider not only our
compensation philosophy butmotivation as a whole.
So let's come back to reality,where neurons are replaced with
(07:54):
people sitting in cubicles,synaptic firings taking place
around the water cooler or inemails or video calls, and
neuroplasticity is awkwardlyforced through corporate change
management techniques.
And what do we do in this realworld?
In fact, these are real,tangible suggestions for
practice and they areencapsulated in a management
(08:17):
theory called high involvementmanagement.
The central tenet of highinvolvement management requires
that senior, middle and lowerlevel managers all recognize
human capital as theorganization's most precious
resource.
Decades of research haveuncovered the five key
characteristics of highinvolvement management that were
(08:39):
implied by our neural networkanalogy.
The first is selective hiringSelecting the right people for
an organization is critical.
Next is extensive training,which has been shown to
significantly improveproductivity, competitiveness
and employee satisfaction.
Another dimension of highinvolvement management is
(09:01):
decision making power, providingassociates with the authority
to make some important decisionswhile inviting them to
influence other decisions.
Information sharing is alsoimportant.
In order for employees to makeeffective decisions and provide
useful input to higher leveldecisions, they must be properly
informed.
Collaboration and coordinationare associated with higher
(09:24):
levels of information sharing.
And lastly, research typicallysupports the effectiveness of
incentive-based compensation,where employees are compensated
based on their performance,through either bonuses, company
profits, gain, sharing orknowledge or skill-based pay.
Peter Gibbons (Office Space (09:41):
The thing is Bob it's not that I'm
lazy, it's that I just don'tcare.
Don't care, it's a problem ofmotivation.
Alright, now, if I work my assoff and in-a-tech ship a few
extra units, I don't see anotherdime.
So where's the motivation?
And here's something else, bob.
I have eight different bossesright now.
(10:02):
I beg your pardon.
Eight bosses, eight, eight, bob.
So that means that when I makea mistake, I have eight
different people coming by totell me about it.
That's my only real motivationis not to be hassled that the
fear of losing my job.
But you know, bob, I'll onlymake someone work just hard
enough not to get fired.
What if you were offered somekind of a stock option, equity
(10:25):
sharing program?
Would that do anything for you?
I don't know, I guess.
Listen, I'm gonna go.
I hope your firing's go reallywell.
Travis Mallett (10:34):
When I first encountered the concept of high
involvement management, itresonated deeply with the
practices I had observed overmany years at Schweitzer
Engineering Laboratories.
It particularly reminded me ofmy first and longstanding
manager at SEL, Robert Lopez,who, after a career spanning
over three decades, recentlyretired from the industry.
(10:54):
Today were privileged to havehim share his insights with us.
Let's ask Robert about some ofthe characteristics of high
involvement management and seeif his experience and
observations over the yearsmatch up with these ideas.
Hi, Mr.
Lopez and welcome.
Hello, Mr.
Mallett.
Thanks for having me on theshow.
Before we get started, go aheadand introduce yourself and tell
(11:17):
our listeners a bit about yourbackground.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (11:20):
Robert Lopez Jr.
I retired from SchweitzerEngineering after about 34 and a
half years.
I did wear many hats in theprocess.
I started out as a technicianbut was soon supervising
technicians as well asmanufacturing.
Most recently, I was aC-Engineer Manager too for one
of the highest producing productdepartments.
(11:40):
The management at SEL coveredmany areas, from managing
assemblers to compliance people,technicians, engineers, even
doing some oddity type ofmanagement as well.
Travis Mallett (11:54):
Thanks.
In today's episode we'retalking about a management
theory called high involvementmanagement.
I imagine in your long careerthat you've seen a wide variety
of management leadership stylesand techniques, some probably
more successful than others.
In broad terms, what are someof the common denominators among
(12:14):
the more successful managementexamples?
Robert Lopez, Jr. (12:17):
This is my own opinion, but I believe it's
pretty well known, and I wouldhave to say that my experience
will confirm what I'm about totell you.
The most successful managersvery simply value their people.
They pay attention to them.
They figure out how to growthem.
They figure out also what tasks, what projects would best
challenge them.
(12:38):
They also cater their methodsaccording to what they have for
people in the department.
That would be my summary of thebest common denominators among
successful managers.
Travis Mallett (12:50):
That's reassuring because high
involvement management at itscore is about managers of all
levels of an organizationvaluing their people.
Let's flip this question aroundand ask the opposite what are
some of the common denominatorsbetween the less successful, or
maybe even detrimental,management styles you've seen?
Robert Lopez, Jr. (13:09):
Too many managers look at the bottom line
, meaning the efficiency,production, the dollar, as being
the thing that should comefirst, but absolutely not how to
manage.
The second, and probablyequivalent, is if a manager
lacks compassion for theirfellow man, they really are in
the wrong profession, because ifthey weren't for the people
(13:30):
that worked for you, youwouldn't be a manager, you
wouldn't have a job, and withoutcompassion true compassion, not
words, but true compassion youwill never be able to get people
to be as productive as theycould be.
You might get rid of a fewthings that have worn been being
, or maybe the old strong armmafia style my way of the
highway that the department willsee very limited success.
Travis Mallett (13:52):
Now I imagine that there are a lot of managers
out there who might feel sounder pressure.
Maybe they don't feel theircompany has the financial luxury
of setting aside efficiency forthe moment and focusing on
their people.
How do we balance thenecessities of the ruthless
business world with valuing ourpeople, or is that the valuing
our people is what ultimatelybrings in profits?
Robert Lopez, Jr. (14:14):
The second part of your statement actually
answers the question.
Efficiency comes from allowingthem to be empowered, allowing
them to feel that they cancontribute, allowing them to be
grown.
Efficiency will come and it hasto be a balance.
Yet true compassion for thatperson, true understanding of
how to grow them, will grow yourefficiency.
(14:35):
As well.
As you know, and with yourexperience as well as mine, the
level of scrutiny that you havefor your own work can sometimes
be a little bit excessive,compulsory if you will.
So by having a good disciplineprocess that you can follow, at
least as a guideline, that willhelp as well.
And that efficiency will comeif you have all those factors in
(14:56):
place.
Employees gain confidence ifthey're trained well, if you
grow them and if you have a gooddiscipline process that you can
follow that allows them to besuccessful.
Travis Mallett (15:06):
One aspect of high involvement management and
you and I have worked closelytogether on this one is
selective hiring.
Can you tell us a bit about thehiring process?
Looking for technical skillsand cultural fit?
This is a loaded question,Travis.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (15:21):
So I learned that what you need to do is you
need to look for those traits,the characteristics that would
allow a person, with and withoutskills that are needed, to be
successful.
The hiring system as a wholehas to be complete, Otherwise
you are spending quite a bit oftime and money and they may not
(15:41):
be successful.
So you want to make sure thatyour potential hire also has a
very good opportunity to behired.
It also allows you to make agood investment.
The cultural fit is a must ifyou want long term.
If they don't fit the culture,if they don't have the same
ideals as the company, at onepoint or another, things are
(16:02):
going to go wrong.
A good company is going to lookfor long term.
If you're filling a spot withwarm bodies, that's not fair
that the company is not fairthat the individual, because the
investment is no good and theindividual has no future.
That should never be the case,ever.
Travis Mallett (16:19):
Now, once we have our people hired, we
probably need to train them.
Tell us a bit about thelogistics and importance of
training new hires.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (16:27):
The way we always did it is that there's an
initial training that occurredon the process that we had to
follow, and then what you had atyour disposal for resources.
That was easy, but the nextthing that I always liked to do
is you had to be introduced notonly to the different
departments you connected with,but how you would interact under
certain cases, and then amentor.
(16:50):
A mentor is filling in theblanks with training that's
intended to cover, becausetraining will do a great job as
far as getting a person familiarwith the processes, the
different departments, et cetera.
But there's always going to besome gray areas and in those
gray areas you need someassistance and that's where a
mentor comes into play.
So training is important.
(17:11):
Critical has to happen, and alot of times we expect this
individual to jump in with bothfeet and run.
That's never a good idea either.
It's pretty rare becausethey're either going to be naive
to the process or they're goingto be an experienced individual
that brings in experience thatmay not fit well with the
process and how they're executedat the current company of hire.
(17:31):
There's a lot to lose if youdon't perform the training.
Travis Mallett (17:35):
Another aspect is decision-making power, or
letting associates make somedecisions or influencing other
decisions.
I think some managers maystruggle to let go of the
decision-making process and relyon their team, but in your
opinion, are the risks worth thepositive benefits of providing
that autonomy Great?
Robert Lopez, Jr. (17:55):
question.
So once your training hasoccurred and they're decently
versed on what needs to be done,then you have to rely on your
training and your managementexperience to listen to the
individual.
If they have an idea, question,an exception to the process, I
always leaned on letting themmake that decision.
(18:15):
So I'd say, okay, thanks forsharing that with me.
Please make the decision thatyou feel best, empowering that
individual to have that libertyto make that decision and
knowing that you stand behindthem.
That goes a long way and youwill grow that individual and,
more importantly, when you'renot there, can't be for whatever
(18:36):
reason.
As a manager, my expectation was, is I have the individual that
I've grown and they can makethose decisions.
If they have any questions, Ifeel confident that they'll call
me.
But I also feel confident inthe decision that they will make
.
I would help them along that Iwould never give them the answer
if they could come up with themby themselves.
Because if they can come upwith the answers, I can solve
(18:57):
and can see the rationale.
Then, more importantly thananything, they're going to learn
why it's done that way and itwould make sense and you would
get their buy-in, which meansthat they would do that in a
disciplined way in the future.
So a person will only perform atask in a certain manner if
they believe it is the correctway to do it.
(19:18):
That is a given.
When I gave to my employees andallowed them to be empowered
with the decision-making process, success was inevitable.
Travis Mallett (19:28):
Yeah, I remember one time when I think I was an
associate engineer and I wasdoing a par qualification, I
forgot to look at the functionsof one pin on the device I was
working on and after we releasedit into production we were
immediately hit with a stopshipment.
I remember staying very late atwork that night working with
(19:48):
manufacturing to resolve theissues.
That's a very vivid memory forme.
And tell you what I learned mylesson and checked every single
pin on every qualification.
After that I think that lessonwas internalized far more than
it would have ever been byreading a process document,
(20:09):
Absolutely.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (20:10):
Absolutely those stick with you, right.
Like you said, you stillremember that and allowing that
to happen is sometimes a littlebit painful, a bit long-term,
extremely, extremely beneficial.
Again, a lot of that process Ilearned in the way I did,
specifically bringing people upand growing them in that manner
I thought was very, verycritical to their long-term
(20:33):
experience there.
I believe it played hugedividends and I know it did.
That was my experience and Ibelieve it was yours as well.
Travis Mallett (20:41):
Yeah, I definitely agree.
So there's another aspect ofhigh involvement management that
emphasizes the importance ofinformation sharing.
Can you think of any exampleswhere information sharing wasn't
done well, and how did thatcontribute to the management
outcomes?
Robert Lopez, Jr. (20:57):
Sure, I can think of several, and most of
the time they come withrequirements on a project.
Lots of money involved there,but I'm not going to talk about
that.
The worst thing that happenedthere is a lot of good.
People were very disgruntledand parted with the company, and
that was extremely unfortunate.
That's the worst thing you cando is set people up for failure
(21:19):
simply by elected communication,and that's exactly what
happened Now.
Travis Mallett (21:23):
Another aspect of business and management is
motivation, and there's thisidea of incentive-based
compensation that seems to havesome supporting evidence.
At our company we had anemployee stock program, which
was a way for the organizationto share profits, and I always
felt like it provided someoverall company-wide motivation
(21:44):
and drive.
Let's work together, work hard,make the company succeed,
because if the company succeeds,we all share in that profit.
You think incentive-basedcompensation is an effective
tool for motivating employees.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (21:58):
Again loaded question.
I think it can be presentedcorrectly.
I would present incentive andthe importance of the job that
you're doing, what it does inthe industry and how your
performance and quality of whatyou do makes a difference.
That in turn brings profits andthen those profits can be
shared.
(22:18):
But if you do it solely basedon, say, an e-stop or something
like that, I think it's a goodmotivator that it's not the
all-encompassing answer.
It can't be, and I'll tell youwhat A person has to believe
that what they're doing hasimportance.
If they don't buy into that,then you're not going to get a
happy employee.
They won't perform.
(22:38):
They need to know that whatthey're doing has importance and
you need to also encourage andenforce that.
And there's a lot of ways thatthis comes into play.
That only is it by allowingtheir ideas to become reality,
allowing their improvements tobe recognized.
All that has to happen, and itdoesn't necessarily mean it's a
(23:00):
compensation that's monetary.
There has to be a compensationthat mentally fits the company
and with performance, and that,I believe, is the long-term way
of ensuring success.
Travis Mallett (23:14):
So, if I'm interpreting this correctly,
you're saying that, yes,incentive-based compensation is
effective If compensation isdefined broadly enough to
include a sort of psychologicalcompensation, or maybe a social
compensation with my team, or anachievement-based compensation
where we get positive feedbackfor our work.
(23:36):
If compensation includes allthose things and is linked in
some ways to performance, thenit is effective.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (23:44):
Yes, absolutely.
It's a good way of summarizingthat.
It has to be beyond that personand beyond monetary.
It has to benefit theindividual, the industry and
those around them in the rightway and if done correctly,
you'll see it.
If all those people arethinking in that same way, the
company's done their job inmaking the incentive-based
(24:05):
compensation broad andpurposeful, then you've got
something that you want to holdon to.
Travis Mallett (24:11):
This was absolutely fantastic and I knew
you were the right person totalk about this topic Before we
sign off.
I know you're retired, but canyou tell our listeners how they
might get in touch with you?
Robert Lopez, Jr. (24:21):
Absolutely.
You can always get in touchwith me via my email.
That's Robert Lopez, all oneword underscore JR at Yahoocom.
I'm always willing and happy tohelp those who are truly
looking to manage people andgrow them for their benefit not
for the person who's doing themanaging, but for the person who
recognizes people in port andto grow people into good
(24:42):
builders of society is gonnabenefit all and this country
needs that.
Again, I would be happy to helpand just to let you all know I
see that as a responsibility.
Thank you again.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
Travis Mallett (24:58):
Now, it would be a shame to gloss over the idea
of valuing people without acorresponding and philosophical
tangent.
The fruit is just hanging toolow on this one.
Several classic examples cometo mind the trolley problem,
where we're forced to confronthow we value people, exposing
our utilitarian or virtueoriented ethics.
(25:19):
Or perhaps the classic FordPinto case, where Ford engineers
actually put a price tag on ahuman life of $200,000 in their
calculations of whether it'd bemore profitable for Ford to fix
a faulty design that could killpeople or leave it be and pay
settlements as they occurred.
But we'll save those for futureepisodes.
(25:41):
Today, let's travel back throughtime and take a tour of what
people throughout history and invarious cultures have said on
the topic, and we'll focusspecifically on the golden rule.
No, not the golden ratio, ifyou're in mathematics, and not
the golden act, for those of youwho might be into horse racing,
and I'm not even talking aboutthe philosophical concept of the
(26:03):
golden mean.
No, we're going to talk aboutthe golden rule, which, if you
haven't heard of it before,you'll probably recognize it as
soon as you hear it.
But we're gonna need some helpon this journey.
So we're joined by our timetravel guide George.
Hi George, are you up tohelping us?
George the Time Travel Guide (26:23):
My dear friend, where might we
venture today?
Or, to be more precise, towhich moment in time shall we
journey?
Travis Mallett (26:33):
We want to explore the golden rule.
Do you know where we shouldstart?
George the Time Travel Guide (26:38):
Ah , a noble quest indeed.
Let us embark on a journeynearly 4000 years into the past,
to the heart of the MiddleKingdom in ancient Egypt, a time
when the Nile whispered talesof gods and pharaohs.
Travis Mallett (27:05):
What is this?
It looks like a courtyard ofsome kind.
I wonder who that is.
Hi hello, just curious whatyou're working on.
Author of "The Eloquent Pea (27:24):
Hmm , the chief steward demands a
completion of the story beforetomorrow, and I'm trying to
finish writing it.
Travis Mallett (27:31):
Are those hieroglyphics?
What are you writing?
Author of "The Eloquent Pe (27:35):
It's a story the elegant Byzant, an
honor of the goddess Maout.
I'm trying to encapsulate thegoddess's principle of
reciprocity.
Cheating diminishes Maout, butI'm good for measure.
Maout neither falls short noroverflows.
Travis Mallett (27:55):
Interesting.
I'm not sure what that means.
Can you read a bit from thepart you're working on?
Author of "The Eloquent Pea (28:01):
Yes , but then you leave, for I must
test into completion.
Here is what I have written Now.
This is the command do to thedoer to cause that he do.
Travis Mallett (28:14):
What does that mean?
Exactly?
Author of "The Eloquent Peas (28:16):
It means thanking him for what he
may do, perrying somethingbefore it is shot, ordering
something from him who alreadyhas business.
If thou vilest thy face againstviolence, who then will punish
the meanness?
All this is in the meaning ofdo to the doer to cause that he
(28:38):
do.
Travis Mallett (28:40):
Thank you, I'll leave you to it.
Do to the doer to cause the hedo.
Do to the doer to cause theheat do.
George the Time Travel Guid (28:54):
Did you perchance Dlean any wisdom
from our surroundings?
Oh hi, George.
Travis Mallett (29:00):
I'm not sure.
Just this phrase do to the doer, to cause the he do.
It sounds vaguely familiar, butI don't know what it reminds me
of, and that scribe gave me apretty cryptic explanation.
Something about an Egyptiangoddess and reciprocity.
George the Time Travel Gui (29:18):
Fear not, we shall remain in Egypt,
but let time's river flow a tadfurther, about 1,200 years to be
exact.
Perhaps there clarity will findyou.
Observe the gentleman in yondercorner.
(29:49):
He's been wrinkly inscribing onpapyrus.
Little does he know his workwill stand the test of time,
becoming the oldest preservedwritings in the annals of
medicine.
Travis Mallett (30:03):
I'm not sure what this has to do with the
golden rule, and this lecturealso doesn't seem to have
anything to do with medicine.
It sounds more like a bunch ofproverbs.
Hush now and lend your ear.
George the Time Travel Gui (30:16):
This is the part I want you to hear.
Author of "The Eloquent Pea (30:18):
For him that which you hate to be
done to you.
Do not do it to another.
George the Time Travel Guide (30:25):
Do not make yourself did you get
that, that which you loathe tobe done on to you?
Refrain from doing it toanother.
Author of "The Eloquent Pea (30:34):
Yes , you in the back.
Do you have something to say tous?
George the Time Travel Guide (30:38):
My apologies, doctor, we're just
leaving.
Travis Mallett (30:44):
Yes, that sounds a lot like the golden rule I've
heard before.
George the Time Travel G (30:48):
Indeed , but our journey is far from
over.
The ancient Egyptians, wise asthey were, were not the sole
bearers of this universal truth.
Let us now traverse to India,for there, at this very moment,
someone else Elucidates the verysame principle.
Who's that?
(31:19):
In due time, he will be knownas the Buddha, but for now, he
is simply a seeker of truth,much like ourselves.
Ah, it seems our linguisticdevice falters.
The Buddha (31:39):
Who seeks his own happiness by harming all men who
also desire to have happiness.
If you don't want to be harmed,you should also not harm others
.
If you harm others, you willnot find happiness, even in your
future existences.
Perceiving the evils of hatredand reflecting mindfully on the
(32:04):
admonition of the enlightenedone, all now shall we return
forth once more?
George the Time Travel Guid (32:10):
let us leap ahead by half a
millennium and find ourselvesamidst the rolling hills of
northern Israel, upon theCorazim plateau.
Travis Mallett (32:32):
Oh, I know this one.
That must be Jesus giving hisfamous sermon on the mount.
George the Time Travel (32:38):
Correct , listen closely.
Author of "The Eloquent Pea (32:43):
But seek first the kingdom of God
and his righteousness To allthese things will be to you.
So whatever you wish thatothers would do to you, do also
to them, for this is the law,and the prophets Judge not that
(33:07):
you be not judged.
The Buddha (33:09):
You have heard that it was said an eye for an eye
and the tooth for a tooth.
Travis Mallett (33:23):
That was very interesting to see how many
different cultures independentlycame up with the golden rule.
Thanks for the help, george.
George the Time Travel Guide (33:31):
It has been the utmost pleasure.
Remember, time is but a canvasand history the art.
Until our next adventure.
Travis Mallett (33:41):
It's fascinating to find that the golden rule Do
unto others as you would havethem do unto you Is confirmed as
a superior rule for life in avariety of cultures and
traditions.
In fact, christianity, buddhism, judaism, confucianism, taoism
are just a few of the traditionsthat have independently
discovered and preached thisrule.
(34:02):
Even Asop and the other ancientGreeks arrived at the same
principle, worded in nearly thesame way and in more recent
times and by recent we'retalking about.
240 years ago, emmanuel Kahnproposed his so-called
Categorical imperative, which isin some ways, nothing more than
a generalization of the goldenrule.
It seems that there's somethinginnate about this rule that is
(34:25):
required for the effectivefunctioning of human society and
organizations, and that's whatthe concept of high involvement
management is all about.
Think about it.
No doubt you want to be on ateam that has been hired
selectively, and you probablywant the training you need to
succeed in your work.
After all, that may be thereason you're listening to this
(34:45):
podcast.
You're also likely motivatedwhen you're empowered to make
decisions, and you probably wantyour hard work to result in
meaningful rewards.
The takeaway Do for ouremployees what we wish would be
done for us.
But there's one more thing wecan learn from the Golden Rule.
Several commentators have noteda potential fatal flaw of the
(35:09):
Golden Rule.
Patrick O'Reilly (TEDxWinnip (35:11):
So the Golden Rule do unto others
as you would have them do untoyou.
That's one version of it, butsomething similar exists in
almost every culture, language,religion around the world.
Maybe that's why so many of usknow it and so many of us
believe in it.
I believed in it too, until aseries of enlightening and
(35:33):
sometimes devastatingrealizations occurred in my own
career that made me seeotherwise.
So what was the problem?
Problem was that I, like manysuccessful leaders, was driven
by perfection.
I was driven by a need to beright.
I was driven by a need to lookgood and to make sure that
(35:53):
people around me were proud ofmy success.
I assumed that's what everyonearound me was driven by as well.
Many of us assume that peopleother people see the world the
way we do.
So, despite some great mentorsalong the way, I was determined
to live by the Golden Rule.
(36:13):
I was determined to help you beperfect.
I was determined to help you beright, to achieve good things,
to make our boss proud, to meetour deadlines, to deliver the
goods.
As you can imagine, eventuallythat didn't end well.
It wasn't pretty, and my careertook a dramatic turn.
(36:35):
So how do you know how to treatpeople.
If not how you want to betreated Well, the first thing
you do is we start payingattention to individuals.
No more generalizing, no moregrouping.
We pay attention to eachindividual person.
If you're leading a team ofpeople, you adapt your
(36:55):
leadership style to each of themindividually.
So you lead the team, but againwe come back to engaging
individually.
It means adapting your style toeach one, which is difficult,
but the return on investmentwill be huge for you.
Saying the Golden Rule is wrongis counterintuitive, but it's
my proposal thatcounterintuitive thinking,
(37:16):
counterintuitive thinking canchange our world.
Travis Mallett (37:21):
It seems that the Golden Rule, while it
touches on some core truth ofhumanity, may need to be more
nuanced to take into account thediversity of human desires what
I want may not be what someoneelse desires, and thus high
involvement management shouldnever just be relegated to
high-level corporate policiesand training.
(37:43):
Managers at all levels need tobe involved, In fact.
Let's return to our definitionof high involvement management.
High involvement managementrequires that senior, middle and
lower-level managers allrecognize human capital as the
organization's most importantresource.
Yes, high-level policies andculture need to exist for high
(38:06):
involvement management to occur,but individual departments need
to be empowered and need theflexibility to tailor those
practices to their specificneeds, and also, very
importantly, frontline managersneed the same to further tailor
the practices to individualsunder their care.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (38:25):
The most successful managers very simply
value their people.
They pay attention to them,they figure out how to grow them
.
They figure out also what tasks, what projects would best
challenge them, and they alsocater their methods according to
what they have for people inthe department.
Travis Mallett (38:44):
High involvement management isn't just a
strategy, it's a culture.
It's about recognizing thepotential in every individual
and harnessing it for collectivesuccess.
It's about collaboration, trustand mutual growth.
So the next time you step intoyour workplace, ask yourself how
(39:04):
involved are you?
So with that, thank you fortuning in to the Management
Theory Toolbox, your topdestination for the
behind-the-scenes of managementand business theory.
As always, each episode isbased on the latest and most
robust management theory, andyou can download the show notes
to find references and learnmore.
(39:26):
In our next episode, we'regoing to move beyond the
anecdotes and stories anddiscuss some of the evidence for
the effectiveness of highinvolvement management.
In the meantime, keep learning,keep growing and keep building
your management theory toolbox.
Too many managers look at the bottom line
meeting efficiency, production,the dollar, as being the thing
that should come first,absolutely not how to manage.
Travis Mallett (00:14):
Welcome back to the Management Theory Toolbox,
your top destination foruncovering the why behind the
management and business concepts.
If you're an executive manager,consultant or business student
and you want to dive deep into ascientifically rooted
discussion of management theory,then you're in the right place.
You didn't know it, but overthe course of our last six
(00:38):
episodes, we've beenmeticulously crafting a
narrative, each segment leadingus closer to a profound
revelation A set of pragmaticand intuitive management tools
called high involvementmanagement.
Now, what comes to mind whenyou think of a highly involved
manager?
Peter Gibbons (Office Spa (00:58):
Hello Peter, what's happening?
We have sort of a problem here.
Yeah, you apparently didn't putone of the new cover sheets on
your TPS reports.
Oh yeah, I'm sorry about that,I forgot.
Yeah, you see, we're puttingthe cover sheets on all TPS
reports now before they go out.
(01:19):
Did you see the memo about this?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I have the memo righthere, I just forgot.
But it's not shipping out tilltomorrow, so there's no problem.
Yeah, if you could just goahead and make sure you do that
from now on, that would be great, and I'll go ahead and make
(01:39):
sure you get another copy ofthat memo.
The Buddha (01:41):
Okay, yeah, no, I have the memo, I've got it.
Travis Mallett (01:44):
That's right.
That was a clip from the 1999comedy Office Space, where in a
tech employee, peter Gibbons isbeing harassed by his superiors
to put a new cover sheet on hisreport.
Hang on to that, because we'llhear again from Peter in a few
minutes.
But is this the kind of highinvolvement management that
we're going to talk about?
(02:04):
Of course not.
Let's take a moment to connectthe dots.
We began by exploring theconcept of emergence in nature,
which naturally led us to thinkof organizations as dynamic
living systems.
Digging deeper, we discoveredthat the closest analogy to
these organizations is not justany living system, but the
(02:26):
intricate neural networks of thehuman brain.
This epiphany has not onlyreshaped our understanding of
organizations, but has alsoimpressed upon us the importance
of the domain of organizationalbehavior.
But the journey of discoverydoes not stop there.
The living systems model oforganizations compels us to ask
(02:48):
not how do we solve this problemor fix that team, but instead
what breathes life into thesesystems?
Part of the answer lies in theburgeoning field of positive
organizational behavior, adiscipline deeply rooted in the
principles of positivepsychology.
Yet a lingering questionremains have all these
(03:09):
discussions culminated in atangible, actionable outcome?
As you might guess, since I'masking that question, the answer
is probably yes.
This is, after all, theManagement Theory Toolbox, and
today's episode develops andemphasizes the toolbox side of
things.
But to get there, we need justone more piece of the puzzle, a
(03:32):
piece that we'll find byrevisiting the idea of
organizations as neural networks.
Let's imagine together ourorganization is a neural network
.
Neurons are connected, synapsesfiring between them,
information being shared, stored, bonds being strengthened or
(03:53):
weakened, reshaped and redefined.
Just like each neuron in thebrain has its unique potential,
each individual in ourorganization is important, but
in the brain there's also thefact that it's the strength and
number of a neuron's synapticconnections that determine its
influence.
This mirrors how everyindividual in an organization
(04:16):
has intrinsic strengths andvirtues, both core tenets of
positive psychology.
Yet it's their collaborationsand connections within the
system that amplify their impact, and that's the missing piece.
The concept of organizations asneural networks and the ideas of
positive psychology can bedistilled in a major practical
(04:39):
takeaway.
Management at all levels of anorganization should value their
people and their managementtechniques should encourage the
growth and strengths of theirpeople, both as individuals and
in the context of theorganization.
But this analogy is powerfulenough for us to be even more
precise than that, the brain'sadaptability, or neural
(05:02):
plasticity, mirrors the growthmindset, also a cornerstone of
positive psychology.
Just as the brain recruitsneurons best suited for tasks,
organizations seek individualswho not only possess strengths,
but also display a growthmindset, enhancing the overall
dynamics.
And, as managers or businessowners, we should also be
(05:25):
careful and mindful whenrecruiting individuals to join
our organization.
When we learn, our brainstrengthens specific neural
pathways.
This process is akin to thejourney towards mastery, a
concept in positive psychology,where individuals seek profound
competence in their domains.
(05:45):
Training in organizations isabout reinforcing behaviors and
skills, ensuring individuals arenot just competent, but moving
towards mastery in alignmentwith the organization's goals.
We can't just hire someone andthrow them into the fire and
hope for the best.
Our view of organizations asneural networks suggests
(06:06):
something far more intentionaland mindful, and it goes way
beyond just providing standard,boring onboarding training.
Individuals need to be boththoroughly trained and
integrated with the socialenvironment of the organization.
The more synaptic connections anew hire can develop, the more
effective they will be to become.
(06:27):
The brain's decentralizedfunctions also reflect the
positive psychology principle ofautonomy the desire to have
control over our actions andbehaviors.
By empowering individuals inorganizations, you're granting
them autonomy, mimicking thebrain's distributed processing
and ensuring a more adaptive andcomprehensive approach to
(06:49):
challenges.
Neurons communicate throughintricate networks, ensuring
that information is relayed andprocessed where needed.
This mirrors the positivepsychology emphasis on building
positive relationships and opencommunication In organizations.
Transparent communicationensures everyone is informed,
fostering trust and positiverelational dynamics.
(07:11):
This means that individuals arenot just connected socially in
the organizations, but connectedwith the proper strains of
information to effectively dotheir job.
And, lastly, the brain's rewardsystem, driven by dopamine,
reinforces beneficial behaviors.
This aligns with positivereinforcement.
Incentive-based compensation inorganizations rewards behaviors
(07:33):
that benefit the entire system,ensuring motivation and
alignment with organizationalobjectives while fostering a
sense of accomplishment andpositivity.
This pushes us to carefullyconsider not only our
compensation philosophy butmotivation as a whole.
So let's come back to reality,where neurons are replaced with
(07:54):
people sitting in cubicles,synaptic firings taking place
around the water cooler or inemails or video calls, and
neuroplasticity is awkwardlyforced through corporate change
management techniques.
And what do we do in this realworld?
In fact, these are real,tangible suggestions for
practice and they areencapsulated in a management
(08:17):
theory called high involvementmanagement.
The central tenet of highinvolvement management requires
that senior, middle and lowerlevel managers all recognize
human capital as theorganization's most precious
resource.
Decades of research haveuncovered the five key
characteristics of highinvolvement management that were
(08:39):
implied by our neural networkanalogy.
The first is selective hiringSelecting the right people for
an organization is critical.
Next is extensive training,which has been shown to
significantly improveproductivity, competitiveness
and employee satisfaction.
Another dimension of highinvolvement management is
(09:01):
decision making power, providingassociates with the authority
to make some important decisionswhile inviting them to
influence other decisions.
Information sharing is alsoimportant.
In order for employees to makeeffective decisions and provide
useful input to higher leveldecisions, they must be properly
informed.
Collaboration and coordinationare associated with higher
(09:24):
levels of information sharing.
And lastly, research typicallysupports the effectiveness of
incentive-based compensation,where employees are compensated
based on their performance,through either bonuses, company
profits, gain, sharing orknowledge or skill-based pay.
Peter Gibbons (Office Space (09:41):
The thing is Bob it's not that I'm
lazy, it's that I just don'tcare.
Don't care, it's a problem ofmotivation.
Alright, now, if I work my assoff and in-a-tech ship a few
extra units, I don't see anotherdime.
So where's the motivation?
And here's something else, bob.
I have eight different bossesright now.
(10:02):
I beg your pardon.
Eight bosses, eight, eight, bob.
So that means that when I makea mistake, I have eight
different people coming by totell me about it.
That's my only real motivationis not to be hassled that the
fear of losing my job.
But you know, bob, I'll onlymake someone work just hard
enough not to get fired.
What if you were offered somekind of a stock option, equity
(10:25):
sharing program?
Would that do anything for you?
I don't know, I guess.
Listen, I'm gonna go.
I hope your firing's go reallywell.
Travis Mallett (10:34):
When I first encountered the concept of high
involvement management, itresonated deeply with the
practices I had observed overmany years at Schweitzer
Engineering Laboratories.
It particularly reminded me ofmy first and longstanding
manager at SEL, Robert Lopez,who, after a career spanning
over three decades, recentlyretired from the industry.
(10:54):
Today were privileged to havehim share his insights with us.
Let's ask Robert about some ofthe characteristics of high
involvement management and seeif his experience and
observations over the yearsmatch up with these ideas.
Hi, Mr.
Lopez and welcome.
Hello, Mr.
Mallett.
Thanks for having me on theshow.
Before we get started, go aheadand introduce yourself and tell
(11:17):
our listeners a bit about yourbackground.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (11:20):
Robert Lopez Jr.
I retired from SchweitzerEngineering after about 34 and a
half years.
I did wear many hats in theprocess.
I started out as a technicianbut was soon supervising
technicians as well asmanufacturing.
Most recently, I was aC-Engineer Manager too for one
of the highest producing productdepartments.
(11:40):
The management at SEL coveredmany areas, from managing
assemblers to compliance people,technicians, engineers, even
doing some oddity type ofmanagement as well.
Travis Mallett (11:54):
Thanks.
In today's episode we'retalking about a management
theory called high involvementmanagement.
I imagine in your long careerthat you've seen a wide variety
of management leadership stylesand techniques, some probably
more successful than others.
In broad terms, what are someof the common denominators among
(12:14):
the more successful managementexamples?
Robert Lopez, Jr. (12:17):
This is my own opinion, but I believe it's
pretty well known, and I wouldhave to say that my experience
will confirm what I'm about totell you.
The most successful managersvery simply value their people.
They pay attention to them.
They figure out how to growthem.
They figure out also what tasks, what projects would best
challenge them.
(12:38):
They also cater their methodsaccording to what they have for
people in the department.
That would be my summary of thebest common denominators among
successful managers.
Travis Mallett (12:50):
That's reassuring because high
involvement management at itscore is about managers of all
levels of an organizationvaluing their people.
Let's flip this question aroundand ask the opposite what are
some of the common denominatorsbetween the less successful, or
maybe even detrimental,management styles you've seen?
Robert Lopez, Jr. (13:09):
Too many managers look at the bottom line
, meaning the efficiency,production, the dollar, as being
the thing that should comefirst, but absolutely not how to
manage.
The second, and probablyequivalent, is if a manager
lacks compassion for theirfellow man, they really are in
the wrong profession, because ifthey weren't for the people
(13:30):
that worked for you, youwouldn't be a manager, you
wouldn't have a job, and withoutcompassion true compassion, not
words, but true compassion youwill never be able to get people
to be as productive as theycould be.
You might get rid of a fewthings that have worn been being
, or maybe the old strong armmafia style my way of the
highway that the department willsee very limited success.
Travis Mallett (13:52):
Now I imagine that there are a lot of managers
out there who might feel sounder pressure.
Maybe they don't feel theircompany has the financial luxury
of setting aside efficiency forthe moment and focusing on
their people.
How do we balance thenecessities of the ruthless
business world with valuing ourpeople, or is that the valuing
our people is what ultimatelybrings in profits?
Robert Lopez, Jr. (14:14):
The second part of your statement actually
answers the question.
Efficiency comes from allowingthem to be empowered, allowing
them to feel that they cancontribute, allowing them to be
grown.
Efficiency will come and it hasto be a balance.
Yet true compassion for thatperson, true understanding of
how to grow them, will grow yourefficiency.
(14:35):
As well.
As you know, and with yourexperience as well as mine, the
level of scrutiny that you havefor your own work can sometimes
be a little bit excessive,compulsory if you will.
So by having a good disciplineprocess that you can follow, at
least as a guideline, that willhelp as well.
And that efficiency will comeif you have all those factors in
(14:56):
place.
Employees gain confidence ifthey're trained well, if you
grow them and if you have a gooddiscipline process that you can
follow that allows them to besuccessful.
Travis Mallett (15:06):
One aspect of high involvement management and
you and I have worked closelytogether on this one is
selective hiring.
Can you tell us a bit about thehiring process?
Looking for technical skillsand cultural fit?
This is a loaded question,Travis.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (15:21):
So I learned that what you need to do is you
need to look for those traits,the characteristics that would
allow a person, with and withoutskills that are needed, to be
successful.
The hiring system as a wholehas to be complete, Otherwise
you are spending quite a bit oftime and money and they may not
(15:41):
be successful.
So you want to make sure thatyour potential hire also has a
very good opportunity to behired.
It also allows you to make agood investment.
The cultural fit is a must ifyou want long term.
If they don't fit the culture,if they don't have the same
ideals as the company, at onepoint or another, things are
(16:02):
going to go wrong.
A good company is going to lookfor long term.
If you're filling a spot withwarm bodies, that's not fair
that the company is not fairthat the individual, because the
investment is no good and theindividual has no future.
That should never be the case,ever.
Travis Mallett (16:19):
Now, once we have our people hired, we
probably need to train them.
Tell us a bit about thelogistics and importance of
training new hires.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (16:27):
The way we always did it is that there's an
initial training that occurredon the process that we had to
follow, and then what you had atyour disposal for resources.
That was easy, but the nextthing that I always liked to do
is you had to be introduced notonly to the different
departments you connected with,but how you would interact under
certain cases, and then amentor.
(16:50):
A mentor is filling in theblanks with training that's
intended to cover, becausetraining will do a great job as
far as getting a person familiarwith the processes, the
different departments, et cetera.
But there's always going to besome gray areas and in those
gray areas you need someassistance and that's where a
mentor comes into play.
So training is important.
(17:11):
Critical has to happen, and alot of times we expect this
individual to jump in with bothfeet and run.
That's never a good idea either.
It's pretty rare becausethey're either going to be naive
to the process or they're goingto be an experienced individual
that brings in experience thatmay not fit well with the
process and how they're executedat the current company of hire.
(17:31):
There's a lot to lose if youdon't perform the training.
Travis Mallett (17:35):
Another aspect is decision-making power, or
letting associates make somedecisions or influencing other
decisions.
I think some managers maystruggle to let go of the
decision-making process and relyon their team, but in your
opinion, are the risks worth thepositive benefits of providing
that autonomy Great?
Robert Lopez, Jr. (17:55):
question.
So once your training hasoccurred and they're decently
versed on what needs to be done,then you have to rely on your
training and your managementexperience to listen to the
individual.
If they have an idea, question,an exception to the process, I
always leaned on letting themmake that decision.
(18:15):
So I'd say, okay, thanks forsharing that with me.
Please make the decision thatyou feel best, empowering that
individual to have that libertyto make that decision and
knowing that you stand behindthem.
That goes a long way and youwill grow that individual and,
more importantly, when you'renot there, can't be for whatever
(18:36):
reason.
As a manager, my expectation was, is I have the individual that
I've grown and they can makethose decisions.
If they have any questions, Ifeel confident that they'll call
me.
But I also feel confident inthe decision that they will make
.
I would help them along that Iwould never give them the answer
if they could come up with themby themselves.
Because if they can come upwith the answers, I can solve
(18:57):
and can see the rationale.
Then, more importantly thananything, they're going to learn
why it's done that way and itwould make sense and you would
get their buy-in, which meansthat they would do that in a
disciplined way in the future.
So a person will only perform atask in a certain manner if
they believe it is the correctway to do it.
(19:18):
That is a given.
When I gave to my employees andallowed them to be empowered
with the decision-making process, success was inevitable.
Travis Mallett (19:28):
Yeah, I remember one time when I think I was an
associate engineer and I wasdoing a par qualification, I
forgot to look at the functionsof one pin on the device I was
working on and after we releasedit into production we were
immediately hit with a stopshipment.
I remember staying very late atwork that night working with
(19:48):
manufacturing to resolve theissues.
That's a very vivid memory forme.
And tell you what I learned mylesson and checked every single
pin on every qualification.
After that I think that lessonwas internalized far more than
it would have ever been byreading a process document,
(20:09):
Absolutely.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (20:10):
Absolutely those stick with you, right.
Like you said, you stillremember that and allowing that
to happen is sometimes a littlebit painful, a bit long-term,
extremely, extremely beneficial.
Again, a lot of that process Ilearned in the way I did,
specifically bringing people upand growing them in that manner
I thought was very, verycritical to their long-term
(20:33):
experience there.
I believe it played hugedividends and I know it did.
That was my experience and Ibelieve it was yours as well.
Travis Mallett (20:41):
Yeah, I definitely agree.
So there's another aspect ofhigh involvement management that
emphasizes the importance ofinformation sharing.
Can you think of any exampleswhere information sharing wasn't
done well, and how did thatcontribute to the management
outcomes?
Robert Lopez, Jr. (20:57):
Sure, I can think of several, and most of
the time they come withrequirements on a project.
Lots of money involved there,but I'm not going to talk about
that.
The worst thing that happenedthere is a lot of good.
People were very disgruntledand parted with the company, and
that was extremely unfortunate.
That's the worst thing you cando is set people up for failure
(21:19):
simply by elected communication,and that's exactly what
happened Now.
Travis Mallett (21:23):
Another aspect of business and management is
motivation, and there's thisidea of incentive-based
compensation that seems to havesome supporting evidence.
At our company we had anemployee stock program, which
was a way for the organizationto share profits, and I always
felt like it provided someoverall company-wide motivation
(21:44):
and drive.
Let's work together, work hard,make the company succeed,
because if the company succeeds,we all share in that profit.
You think incentive-basedcompensation is an effective
tool for motivating employees.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (21:58):
Again loaded question.
I think it can be presentedcorrectly.
I would present incentive andthe importance of the job that
you're doing, what it does inthe industry and how your
performance and quality of whatyou do makes a difference.
That in turn brings profits andthen those profits can be
shared.
(22:18):
But if you do it solely basedon, say, an e-stop or something
like that, I think it's a goodmotivator that it's not the
all-encompassing answer.
It can't be, and I'll tell youwhat A person has to believe
that what they're doing hasimportance.
If they don't buy into that,then you're not going to get a
happy employee.
They won't perform.
(22:38):
They need to know that whatthey're doing has importance and
you need to also encourage andenforce that.
And there's a lot of ways thatthis comes into play.
That only is it by allowingtheir ideas to become reality,
allowing their improvements tobe recognized.
All that has to happen, and itdoesn't necessarily mean it's a
(23:00):
compensation that's monetary.
There has to be a compensationthat mentally fits the company
and with performance, and that,I believe, is the long-term way
of ensuring success.
Travis Mallett (23:14):
So, if I'm interpreting this correctly,
you're saying that, yes,incentive-based compensation is
effective If compensation isdefined broadly enough to
include a sort of psychologicalcompensation, or maybe a social
compensation with my team, or anachievement-based compensation
where we get positive feedbackfor our work.
(23:36):
If compensation includes allthose things and is linked in
some ways to performance, thenit is effective.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (23:44):
Yes, absolutely.
It's a good way of summarizingthat.
It has to be beyond that personand beyond monetary.
It has to benefit theindividual, the industry and
those around them in the rightway and if done correctly,
you'll see it.
If all those people arethinking in that same way, the
company's done their job inmaking the incentive-based
(24:05):
compensation broad andpurposeful, then you've got
something that you want to holdon to.
Travis Mallett (24:11):
This was absolutely fantastic and I knew
you were the right person totalk about this topic Before we
sign off.
I know you're retired, but canyou tell our listeners how they
might get in touch with you?
Robert Lopez, Jr. (24:21):
Absolutely.
You can always get in touchwith me via my email.
That's Robert Lopez, all oneword underscore JR at Yahoocom.
I'm always willing and happy tohelp those who are truly
looking to manage people andgrow them for their benefit not
for the person who's doing themanaging, but for the person who
recognizes people in port andto grow people into good
(24:42):
builders of society is gonnabenefit all and this country
needs that.
Again, I would be happy to helpand just to let you all know I
see that as a responsibility.
Thank you again.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
Travis Mallett (24:58):
Now, it would be a shame to gloss over the idea
of valuing people without acorresponding and philosophical
tangent.
The fruit is just hanging toolow on this one.
Several classic examples cometo mind the trolley problem,
where we're forced to confronthow we value people, exposing
our utilitarian or virtueoriented ethics.
(25:19):
Or perhaps the classic FordPinto case, where Ford engineers
actually put a price tag on ahuman life of $200,000 in their
calculations of whether it'd bemore profitable for Ford to fix
a faulty design that could killpeople or leave it be and pay
settlements as they occurred.
But we'll save those for futureepisodes.
(25:41):
Today, let's travel back throughtime and take a tour of what
people throughout history and invarious cultures have said on
the topic, and we'll focusspecifically on the golden rule.
No, not the golden ratio, ifyou're in mathematics, and not
the golden act, for those of youwho might be into horse racing,
and I'm not even talking aboutthe philosophical concept of the
(26:03):
golden mean.
No, we're going to talk aboutthe golden rule, which, if you
haven't heard of it before,you'll probably recognize it as
soon as you hear it.
But we're gonna need some helpon this journey.
So we're joined by our timetravel guide George.
Hi George, are you up tohelping us?
George the Time Travel Guide (26:23):
My dear friend, where might we
venture today?
Or, to be more precise, towhich moment in time shall we
journey?
Travis Mallett (26:33):
We want to explore the golden rule.
Do you know where we shouldstart?
George the Time Travel Guide (26:38):
Ah , a noble quest indeed.
Let us embark on a journeynearly 4000 years into the past,
to the heart of the MiddleKingdom in ancient Egypt, a time
when the Nile whispered talesof gods and pharaohs.
Travis Mallett (27:05):
What is this?
It looks like a courtyard ofsome kind.
I wonder who that is.
Hi hello, just curious whatyou're working on.
Author of "The Eloquent Pea (27:24):
Hmm , the chief steward demands a
completion of the story beforetomorrow, and I'm trying to
finish writing it.
Travis Mallett (27:31):
Are those hieroglyphics?
What are you writing?
Author of "The Eloquent Pe (27:35):
It's a story the elegant Byzant, an
honor of the goddess Maout.
I'm trying to encapsulate thegoddess's principle of
reciprocity.
Cheating diminishes Maout, butI'm good for measure.
Maout neither falls short noroverflows.
Travis Mallett (27:55):
Interesting.
I'm not sure what that means.
Can you read a bit from thepart you're working on?
Author of "The Eloquent Pea (28:01):
Yes , but then you leave, for I must
test into completion.
Here is what I have written Now.
This is the command do to thedoer to cause that he do.
Travis Mallett (28:14):
What does that mean?
Exactly?
Author of "The Eloquent Peas (28:16):
It means thanking him for what he
may do, perrying somethingbefore it is shot, ordering
something from him who alreadyhas business.
If thou vilest thy face againstviolence, who then will punish
the meanness?
All this is in the meaning ofdo to the doer to cause that he
(28:38):
do.
Travis Mallett (28:40):
Thank you, I'll leave you to it.
Do to the doer to cause the hedo.
Do to the doer to cause theheat do.
George the Time Travel Guid (28:54):
Did you perchance Dlean any wisdom
from our surroundings?
Oh hi, George.
Travis Mallett (29:00):
I'm not sure.
Just this phrase do to the doer, to cause the he do.
It sounds vaguely familiar, butI don't know what it reminds me
of, and that scribe gave me apretty cryptic explanation.
Something about an Egyptiangoddess and reciprocity.
George the Time Travel Gui (29:18):
Fear not, we shall remain in Egypt,
but let time's river flow a tadfurther, about 1,200 years to be
exact.
Perhaps there clarity will findyou.
Observe the gentleman in yondercorner.
(29:49):
He's been wrinkly inscribing onpapyrus.
Little does he know his workwill stand the test of time,
becoming the oldest preservedwritings in the annals of
medicine.
Travis Mallett (30:03):
I'm not sure what this has to do with the
golden rule, and this lecturealso doesn't seem to have
anything to do with medicine.
It sounds more like a bunch ofproverbs.
Hush now and lend your ear.
George the Time Travel Gui (30:16):
This is the part I want you to hear.
Author of "The Eloquent Pea (30:18):
For him that which you hate to be
done to you.
Do not do it to another.
George the Time Travel Guide (30:25):
Do not make yourself did you get
that, that which you loathe tobe done on to you?
Refrain from doing it toanother.
Author of "The Eloquent Pea (30:34):
Yes , you in the back.
Do you have something to say tous?
George the Time Travel Guide (30:38):
My apologies, doctor, we're just
leaving.
Travis Mallett (30:44):
Yes, that sounds a lot like the golden rule I've
heard before.
George the Time Travel G (30:48):
Indeed , but our journey is far from
over.
The ancient Egyptians, wise asthey were, were not the sole
bearers of this universal truth.
Let us now traverse to India,for there, at this very moment,
someone else Elucidates the verysame principle.
Who's that?
(31:19):
In due time, he will be knownas the Buddha, but for now, he
is simply a seeker of truth,much like ourselves.
Ah, it seems our linguisticdevice falters.
The Buddha (31:39):
Who seeks his own happiness by harming all men who
also desire to have happiness.
If you don't want to be harmed,you should also not harm others
.
If you harm others, you willnot find happiness, even in your
future existences.
Perceiving the evils of hatredand reflecting mindfully on the
(32:04):
admonition of the enlightenedone, all now shall we return
forth once more?
George the Time Travel Guid (32:10):
let us leap ahead by half a
millennium and find ourselvesamidst the rolling hills of
northern Israel, upon theCorazim plateau.
Travis Mallett (32:32):
Oh, I know this one.
That must be Jesus giving hisfamous sermon on the mount.
George the Time Travel (32:38):
Correct , listen closely.
Author of "The Eloquent Pea (32:43):
But seek first the kingdom of God
and his righteousness To allthese things will be to you.
So whatever you wish thatothers would do to you, do also
to them, for this is the law,and the prophets Judge not that
(33:07):
you be not judged.
The Buddha (33:09):
You have heard that it was said an eye for an eye
and the tooth for a tooth.
Travis Mallett (33:23):
That was very interesting to see how many
different cultures independentlycame up with the golden rule.
Thanks for the help, george.
George the Time Travel Guide (33:31):
It has been the utmost pleasure.
Remember, time is but a canvasand history the art.
Until our next adventure.
Travis Mallett (33:41):
It's fascinating to find that the golden rule Do
unto others as you would havethem do unto you Is confirmed as
a superior rule for life in avariety of cultures and
traditions.
In fact, christianity, buddhism, judaism, confucianism, taoism
are just a few of the traditionsthat have independently
discovered and preached thisrule.
(34:02):
Even Asop and the other ancientGreeks arrived at the same
principle, worded in nearly thesame way and in more recent
times and by recent we'retalking about.
240 years ago, emmanuel Kahnproposed his so-called
Categorical imperative, which isin some ways, nothing more than
a generalization of the goldenrule.
It seems that there's somethinginnate about this rule that is
(34:25):
required for the effectivefunctioning of human society and
organizations, and that's whatthe concept of high involvement
management is all about.
Think about it.
No doubt you want to be on ateam that has been hired
selectively, and you probablywant the training you need to
succeed in your work.
After all, that may be thereason you're listening to this
(34:45):
podcast.
You're also likely motivatedwhen you're empowered to make
decisions, and you probably wantyour hard work to result in
meaningful rewards.
The takeaway Do for ouremployees what we wish would be
done for us.
But there's one more thing wecan learn from the Golden Rule.
Several commentators have noteda potential fatal flaw of the
(35:09):
Golden Rule.
Patrick O'Reilly (TEDxWinnip (35:11):
So the Golden Rule do unto others
as you would have them do untoyou.
That's one version of it, butsomething similar exists in
almost every culture, language,religion around the world.
Maybe that's why so many of usknow it and so many of us
believe in it.
I believed in it too, until aseries of enlightening and
(35:33):
sometimes devastatingrealizations occurred in my own
career that made me seeotherwise.
So what was the problem?
Problem was that I, like manysuccessful leaders, was driven
by perfection.
I was driven by a need to beright.
I was driven by a need to lookgood and to make sure that
(35:53):
people around me were proud ofmy success.
I assumed that's what everyonearound me was driven by as well.
Many of us assume that peopleother people see the world the
way we do.
So, despite some great mentorsalong the way, I was determined
to live by the Golden Rule.
(36:13):
I was determined to help you beperfect.
I was determined to help you beright, to achieve good things,
to make our boss proud, to meetour deadlines, to deliver the
goods.
As you can imagine, eventuallythat didn't end well.
It wasn't pretty, and my careertook a dramatic turn.
(36:35):
So how do you know how to treatpeople.
If not how you want to betreated Well, the first thing
you do is we start payingattention to individuals.
No more generalizing, no moregrouping.
We pay attention to eachindividual person.
If you're leading a team ofpeople, you adapt your
(36:55):
leadership style to each of themindividually.
So you lead the team, but againwe come back to engaging
individually.
It means adapting your style toeach one, which is difficult,
but the return on investmentwill be huge for you.
Saying the Golden Rule is wrongis counterintuitive, but it's
my proposal thatcounterintuitive thinking,
(37:16):
counterintuitive thinking canchange our world.
Travis Mallett (37:21):
It seems that the Golden Rule, while it
touches on some core truth ofhumanity, may need to be more
nuanced to take into account thediversity of human desires what
I want may not be what someoneelse desires, and thus high
involvement management shouldnever just be relegated to
high-level corporate policiesand training.
(37:43):
Managers at all levels need tobe involved, In fact.
Let's return to our definitionof high involvement management.
High involvement managementrequires that senior, middle and
lower-level managers allrecognize human capital as the
organization's most importantresource.
Yes, high-level policies andculture need to exist for high
(38:06):
involvement management to occur,but individual departments need
to be empowered and need theflexibility to tailor those
practices to their specificneeds, and also, very
importantly, frontline managersneed the same to further tailor
the practices to individualsunder their care.
Robert Lopez, Jr. (38:25):
The most successful managers very simply
value their people.
They pay attention to them,they figure out how to grow them
.
They figure out also what tasks, what projects would best
challenge them, and they alsocater their methods according to
what they have for people inthe department.
Travis Mallett (38:44):
High involvement management isn't just a
strategy, it's a culture.
It's about recognizing thepotential in every individual
and harnessing it for collectivesuccess.
It's about collaboration, trustand mutual growth.
So the next time you step intoyour workplace, ask yourself how
(39:04):
involved are you?
So with that, thank you fortuning in to the Management
Theory Toolbox, your topdestination for the
behind-the-scenes of managementand business theory.
As always, each episode isbased on the latest and most
robust management theory, andyou can download the show notes
to find references and learnmore.
(39:26):
In our next episode, we'regoing to move beyond the
anecdotes and stories anddiscuss some of the evidence for
the effectiveness of highinvolvement management.
In the meantime, keep learning,keep growing and keep building
your management theory toolbox.
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