Beyond the Veil: Mysticism in Modern Times

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What does it mean to pursue the divine across cultures, languages, and spiritual traditions—and can we do so without losing the anchor of truth?

In this rich and reverent conversation, Michael sits down with Johnny Ganta—a man shaped by the soil of India, the skyline of Dubai, the individual freedoms of America, social focus of Cananda and the spiritual tension of East and West. Together, they unpack the mystery of how people seek God across the globe, and how our cultural “watering systems” influence what we expect from the eternal.

Johnny carries a worldview formed not in just theory but in tension—where Eastern mysticism meets Western rationalism, where soul hunger finds different expressions. Rather than judging this hunger by conventional metrics—prayer time, Bible study, church attendance—they look deeper: What is the soul actually seeking? And what are the vehicles people are using to find meaning, peace, healing?

The conversation orbits key contrasts: the Western obsession with certainty, logic, and control, versus the Eastern comfort with mystery, process, and presence. Johnny frames it in archetypes—masculine and feminine, doing and being, theory and encounter.

And yet, this isn’t theological drift. It’s spiritual discernment. Michael reminds us of the promise Jesus gave in Luke 11: that if a son asks his father for bread, he won’t give him a stone. “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

This episode isn’t about abandoning orthodoxy. It’s about remembering that God is bigger than our formulas—and that if we ask Him for truth, He is faithful to give it. Even in unfamiliar spaces, His ability to keep us is stronger than the enemy’s power to deceive us.

Whether you're deeply rooted in the faith or still finding your way, this dialogue invites you to consider what people are really chasing—and how, even in unlikely places, they may be closer to the truth than they know.

Not all who wander are lost. And not all who seek are straying.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
There's a kind of hunger that doesn't go away with
knowledge.
The more you learn, the moreyou sense what's missing.
Not just in facts, but inunderstanding, moving from the
theoretical to the experiential.
Not just what you know, but inhow you live.
Rich Mullins once said I am notwhat I believe, I am what I

(00:24):
believe is doing to me, and thisconversation is for those who
feel that ache.
It's the first in a series ofdialogues with my good friend
Johnny Gunta, a friend whoselife bridges the worlds of East
and West.
He is of Indian descent, hespent a large portion of his

(00:45):
life in Dubai, in the UnitedArab Emirates.
He had years of his life shapedin the West, when he studied in
both Canada and America, and hecarries the tension of two
civilizations within his bones.
He's walked through mysticismand modernity, through tradition
and reason, and he's stillsearching for truth with both

(01:08):
hands open.
So what we're doing here isn'tsurface level.
We're examining the deeparchitecture of thought between
East and West, the soul and thespirit, reason and revelation.
We talk about the sacred roleof tobacco and spiritual
practice, the tension betweenlogic and mystery, the nature of

(01:30):
the soul and what it means tosuffer with purpose, and so
we're entering into a dialogue,not a debate, it's not a
performance, it's just an honestattempt to bring light to
places that usually just getleft in the shadow.
You may find some of thisstrange, you may find some of it
uncomfortably familiar, but ifyou're willing to sit with it,

(01:51):
to with us wrestle with someideas before rushing to any
conclusions, then I believethere's something here that we
all can unpack together.
And so, wherever this finds you, welcome a breath, lean in and
let's begin.
Welcome to the map.
Zen things no, have you.

(02:12):
Do you know what I'm talkingabout?
No, I don't know what you're.
Zen things no, do you know whatI'm talking about?

Speaker 2 (02:26):
No, I don't know what you're talking about All right.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
So they're like these little nicotine pouches that
people have.
It's just like a pouch ofnicotine, and so a lot of people
who vape have transitioned overto doing these things.
I've transitioned over to thisOkay, is it gum?
Yeah, yeah, nicotine, yeah,over to this.

(02:53):
Okay, is it gum?
Yeah, yeah, yeah they.
They had like some studies comeout and it's like smokers were
like the least influenced bycovid and they attribute it to
actually nicotine.
Was, uh, nicotine like has thisthing where it like blocks some
receptors and they found likesome really like positive good
effects from from nicotineitself.
Obviously not the four other400 other ingredients of
cigarettes, like arsenic,malhyde stuff, but the nicotine.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
It does help you with the focus and they do consider
it one of those um new, newtropics.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Yeah, nootropic yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
And you know another interesting thing about
cigarettes or nicotine Tobaccoactually tobacco the plant.
So the Native Americans, theykind of introduced it to the
world as we know it and thatplant is a sacred plant for them
.
It's a listening plant and whenyou try and grow it in your

(03:48):
garden, it will actually startmoving and creeping closer to
where people congregate becauseit likes to listen to
conversation.
So what they do is, as part oftheir rituals, they're going to
burn the tobacco, and they do itin different parts of the world
as well, where you burnsomething like tobacco and it

(04:10):
carries the prayers to heavenand specifically, tobacco is a
messenger from you to the MostHigh.
And that's the history.
Well, like, yeah, we'vecommercialized it and everything
, and like, yeah, we can getaddicted to a lot of good stuff.
But I mean, this is more than umtobacco as an addictive plant

(04:33):
you know, and I don't even thinkyou need to inhale it, I think
it just needs to be umincinerated yeah, it'll go
through the bloodstream, even inyour, in your like, under the
smoke being in your mouth Ithink it needs to go on the
bloodstream.
You know, it's like like asiege as well, like it can just
you just burn it and then youapply conscious intention as you

(04:55):
, you know, as you pray so it'sinteresting that you started the
conversation talking about likesmoke going up to the most high
.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
I remember, like peterson, talking about like
sacrifices and then burning thesacrifice.
Why do you burn the sacrifice?
Because the smoke goes up.
And so, under the same kind ofpremise of what you're talking
about with the, with the tobacco, uh is it, is that uh yeah yeah
which is what we were kind oflike, what I wanted to kind of
like hit on, uh, today, but Ihad you on podcast a long time

(05:24):
ago.
I feel like it's his own brand,which is what we were kind of
like, what I wanted to kind oflike hit on today, but I had you
on podcast a long time ago.
I feel like it's kind ofunsanctimonious to just like
dive in.
So I do want to give like alittle bit of intro.
This is my good, dear friend,johnny Gunta.
We met in Dubai and now hehails in the land of Bangalore,

(05:44):
india, dubai, and now he hailsin the land of Bangalore, india,
and is one of the people whoowns real estate in my heart and
doesn't pay rent, even thoughtime, space and matter are have
us literally as far away fromeach other as we can get without
.
If we start going any direction, we'll probably start coming
back towards each othergeographicallyically, but, uh, I

(06:07):
appreciate you hopping on anddoing this man thanks for having
me here, michael.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
It's a pleasure to be here again.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
It's been many years like I'd like to get like your
take on some things, because oneof the things that we wanted to
talk about was just like thedifference between western and
eastern mindset, a little bitaround spirituality, but just
like philosophy as well, and howwe kind of view the world in
the lens that we view the worldthrough a big chunk of americans
.
This is changing, but there's aperiod of time where like 85
percent of americans didn't havepassports and which is kind of

(06:39):
wild for people who reside inother parts of the world to kind
of conceptualize that they justyou're born here, you die there
, you won't even probably leavethe state that you're in.
Now this is changing.
Ironically, last year, morepeople took vacations to Europe
from America than ever before.
So like we see like that trendchanging.
But there's a lot of propagandapieces that people from the

(07:05):
outside world will see, where,like, people say America is the
greatest country in the worldand this is being said by people
who have never traveled to anyother country.
And so there comes this likesometimes narrow worldview and
you're not forced to be aroundother people with like different
perspectives.
I think like living for a shorttime in the UAE and then living

(07:27):
in Europe and seeing like, oh,people are doing things
completely differently than Iwould do, that, but it's working
.
And like having to like kind ofreconcile.
Reconcile that.
And for you it's kind ofstrange, because you you grew up
outside of India big chunk oftime.
You spent time in Canada, youspent time in the UAE, you spent

(07:48):
some time in the States andthen, through a series of events
, you end up back in India andnow you're in a people group
that maybe from the outside someare like oh yeah, you're an
Indian dude, but you're astranger in a strange land.
That's somehow like home to youin a sense as well.
So, yeah, maybe talk about whatthat's been like, because you

(08:12):
kind of had both worlds in thatsense.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, I'm very much a bridge, I guess in that way,
and I think that's my ministry,that's my soul path it's to be a
bridge.
I think exploring is a lot ofwhat I do and I investigate.
I investigate all kinds ofthings, I go deep into it, but

(08:40):
then what I'm able to do is takewhat's useful, take what's
foundational, take what'suniversal and then throw away
the rest.
Sometimes you don't need tothrow anything away, but

(09:01):
sometimes, yeah, there's spent alot of time in exploring only
to find that it wasn't thecomplete picture and it's been
many years of just learning thatway.
But I think the bridge betweencultures is one thing you know
like who's got the rightworldview right.

(09:23):
I studied in the States aliberal arts education and in a
liberal arts education takesomething like cultural studies,
cultural heritage.
I remember that was one of theclasses.
Cultural heritage for us incollege was from the Greeks.

(09:48):
The Greeks were the top dogs,right in our discussions.
The Greeks were the ones thatintroduced the most rich
philosophy, foundationalworldview, foundational
worldview.
And I don't think we discussmuch about the other side of the

(10:08):
world.
But yeah, that's how it is.
You're right, in America 80% ofpeople don't have passports, so
you don't really travel around,and I think that's really sad
because it's like.
You know I can't remember whomade this statement, but travel

(10:30):
and life.
There's something about travelbeing so.
If life is like a book I thinkit's Augustine yeah, maybe, but
basically, if life is like abook, then you know every
chapter.
When you travel or move, it'slike you're living out a new
chapter in this book.
But if you just stay in oneplace, you don't really move and

(10:50):
the story, actually the story,doesn't really evolve.
You know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
I think something that I've been exploring myself,
is coming back and trying to Iwouldn't say assimilate, but
just try to find my place in theStates after being gone for
about 11 years is that there's avery like straight, it's just
like one line of religiousthought or political thought or
social thought of like this ishow things are, um, and to your
point, like if we're going toworship greek philosophers and
like western mindsets that arevery left brain leaning, um, you
know, god, you know, has givenus two sides of our brain, so
the right side of your brain islike the intuition, it's, it's
imagination, it's music, it'screativity, it's this side, the,

(11:47):
the left being languages andand mathematics, and you know
logic and I'd say, like to dumbdown one side or or or favor one
side, uh, would be cripplingourselves in some sense.
And and when you look backthrough some meta-narratives
throughout the Old Testament,you see that there's stories

(12:15):
within stories, within storiesthat are happening.
And if you just, from a Westernperspective, to learn it is to
memorize the information and beable to regurgitate that
information, and that's notreally learning lesson.
So if I, if I uh burn my handon the stove and then I later

(12:36):
tell you like, yeah, I touchedthat stove on and I, and I burnt
my hand and I can regurgitatethat, but I didn't learn like
not to put my hand on the hotstove and why that stove gets
hot in the first place, and whatdoes that stove even be used
for?
Outside of that, I'm not reallylearning.
If I am learning, I'm learningin a very, very crippled way.
And so the, the western brainthinks, um, maybe, like on a

(12:58):
quantitative lens, and then theeastern, maybe, is looking more
as a qualitative lens, and soquantitative in the sense of I
have seven apples on the tableand I'm going to count like one,

(13:22):
two, three, four, five, six,seven.
And then qualitative, on theEastern mind says I have seven
apples here and I can use theseto create apple pie or I can
create apple juice, or I cancreate applesauce from these
things.
So you're just like what can Ido with these things?

(13:42):
And so when you're telling astory from an Eastern
perspective and then a Westernmind is trying to interpret
through the Western lens, it'sjust over the head.
You're not seeing like thewhole picture there for sure,
and you popped out and poppedback in.
I don't know if all that camethrough.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
No, yeah, absolutely.
I mean the gist of what you'resaying.
I mean it's spot on to thepattern.
So there is this idea as above,so below, as within, so without
, and this is a universalconcept.
You mentioned left brain andright brain, and there is a

(14:28):
difference between these twohemispheres.
Like, as you mentioned, rightone is actually designed for
novelty, curiosity, and that'sthe right hemisphere.
The side you mentioned isconnected to music and all of
that.
It's also the side that wedon't really have.

(14:50):
We don't really speak with theright hemisphere.
That's the left hemisphere'sjob.
The right hemisphere will speakin symbols, visually.
That's another weird thingabout it.
But you can see the differencebetween this bicameral situation

(15:12):
is that yin-yang,masculine-feminine.
You know, that's your rightbrain, left brain, and with the
world, when you expand, uh, asabove, so below, and you can,
you can find this patterneverywhere.
There is a masculine and thereis a feminine energy and uh,

(15:33):
yeah, with the western worldview, it's a, it's a, it's very
much a masculine, um yang kindof energy, compared to the east,
which is very feminine, veryyin.
Yeah, yeah, okay, with themystery, you know, even when it
comes to, like you know, uh, thebigger questions, the bigger

(15:54):
philosophical questions, thereligious questions.
They're very much okay with themystery here in india.
We're very okay with mystery.
It's not the case with the west.
You have to have the known.
You have to have that knownworld established and that's the
preferred state.
And it's great because you canactually build stuff when you

(16:15):
get to that point of knowing andcertainty.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, I guess.
Looking at the trade-off ofthose two things, though, is
like I know what I know, I knowwhat I don't know, but I don't
know what I don't know, andpeople feel very insecure to
just admit like I don't know Meand my wife.
There's actually like, I guesslike there's a practice in
Judaism when they discoversomething they don't know, they

(16:40):
do a dance and celebrate, andthe mindset is like there's
something more for me to learn.
It's a celebratory thing, but,like in the west, like you'll
see, like clickbait stuff, wherepeople will say something to
somebody, then they don't knowwhat to say, or they said the
wrong thing or whatever, andpeople want to shame people for
not knowing, and and so it'skind of like you cripple

(17:04):
people's attempt to to learn,and like we live in like a time
where I feel like we're comingout of it, but just like the
whole cancel culture thing andand all that of like people were
afraid to talk, and when you'reafraid to talk, you're afraid
to think out loud.
When you're afraid to think outloud, I can't even test my
ideas and, and you know, throwthem out to you and you're like
oh, mike, it's actually not likethis, and we kind of like can

(17:26):
work on them.
But I feel like there's anexample given once that always
stuck with me, but it was aboutNorth Korea and Kim Jong-il.
He asked the kids, like what'sone plus one?
And the kids said you have two,of course.
And he said, no, what's oneplus one?
And the kids said, uh, you havetwo of course.
And he said, no, one plus oneis one.

(17:47):
And they're like, explain.
And then he said if I have onedrop of water and one drop of
water and I put them into abucket, the water becomes one
unit, one quantitatively.
You didn't ask me like what I,what I uh, was adding together
and this, this kind of sums uplike it, you know, think
whatever you want about korea,but this kind of sums up like an

(18:10):
eastern take on, it'squalitative versus quantitative.
It sums up what I was explainingwith the seven apples there
yeah, yeah, yeah so for you,like now, you know, jumping,
jumping into a country that likehas a like, I think, sanskrit.

(18:32):
What is it like?
Five thousand six thousandyears old it's, estimate
something like that's one of theoldest written forms of
language you have.
India has been, like, producingcotton, uh, for over 5,000
years.
There's a lot of industriesthat have existed in the place
that you're residing longer.
America is only a couplehundred years old as a country,

(18:56):
and then you're in a place wherethere's all these industries
and all these things that peoplehave invested themselves in.
How do you the the layers oftradition and modernity and like
a lot of the art that you do,like there's a lot of digital
art you do, and the way that youbuild, you know, I see that
you're kind of like buildingbusiness stuff.

(19:16):
Like how do you not necessarilyreconcile those things but
navigate those, those things?

Speaker 2 (19:24):
art, reconciling art with what?

Speaker 1 (19:27):
no just, but basically just tradition and and
and the modernity, like, likeif you're embracing like what's
already existing there, becauseyou said, like you kind of came
to a place where you'll, yeah,great, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
So for me, like so, I , I, you know, I my preferred
approach in the world is that oflike a mystic.
Okay, and if I was born 200years ago, I would probably, you
know, be a monk or somethingLike.
I really dig that kind oflifestyle, that ascetic
lifestyle.
Now, um, now would you remindme of the question?

Speaker 1 (20:14):
So I was just asking how do you reconcile?
Uh, you know, navigatingtradition and modernity within
India, cause you're, you'recoming in again.
You're, you study in the States.
You've you've been in Canada,you've been to UAE, and now
you're coming in again.
You study in the States.
You've been in Canada, you'vebeen to UAE, and now you're
coming to Bangalore.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
So I think, look, here's one way of putting it the
mystical approach to life isone of remembering.
You know, through directexperience.
You're trying to remember whoyou were, you're trying to

(20:52):
remember truth.
It's not about and I know Imentioned exploring at the
beginning that's, it'sexploration in a different way
you know, we say you got to goinward, you got to go within,
but what it really means iseverything that is inverse to
how we're thinking, when we'rethinking just from ego
perspective, so that mysticalapproach to life.

(21:14):
You know, that means what I doas an artist.
Uh, it's.
It's just what I'm digging upfrom from the past you know, and
I do it in a very literal way.
as a collage artist, I work withpublic domain stuff and when I
dig it up and I bring it back,it's a composite of many

(21:36):
different works from differenttime periods.
But what it does is it gives auniversal message, one that's
stood the test of time.
So I'll cover themes like youknow death and rebirth, and you
know other mythological themes.
You know, you can imagine, andwe just talked about yin and

(21:58):
yang and the masculine and thefeminine.
Those are universal conceptsand and everything that I
explore will touch upon that.
So it is going back in time.
There's it's, there's no issuewith how do I reconcile things
with the changing world.
Foundational stuff is what Ihold on to in my exploration, so

(22:19):
does that make sense?

Speaker 1 (22:21):
yeah, so you and I think that kind of ties into
what you said earlier.
It's just like you look at foruniversal truths, like
self-evident truths and thingsthat have kind of stood the test
of time, and if there's anarrative that's like 30 000
years older than writtenlanguage or like 6 000 years old
, whatever, like that, you know,irregardless of generation,
people are able to integratethat into their, in their being.

(22:41):
You can just pull symbols andpull the imagery to, to engage
that right hemisphere of the, ofthe brain.
You know, you, you talked aboutbeing like, you feel like
you're, you're a mystic.
I think it's probably like aconnection point between us,
because this is really likewhere I, you know, um, would, I

(23:03):
don't really fit within, I wouldsay like institutional circles
of of faith.
In some ways, I, I basicallyjust have like bad.
They say.
I said bad theology basicallybecause, but if I look through
the, the corpus of, uh, the, the, the bible, uh, and I see that

(23:24):
one of the ways that the creatorof everything that exists wants
to engage with people, interactwith people, it's, it's through
uh, visualization, it, it'soutside of having like, a, a
like there's a incarnation or amanifestation in the physical.
Uh, a lot of times people arehaving visions or they're having

(23:46):
dreams, and so when we talkabout like your brain and how
you're going to interpretinformation, one of the one of
the ways that western peoplestruggle a lot is they will want
to sit down and have a reallyintellectually stimulating
teaching, but they want to havesomething that they can.
It's challenging enough to likeit kind of stretches them, the
neuroplasticity, but it's simpleenough that they can walk away

(24:09):
from that exchange and they canabsorb it and they can
regurgitate it back and like,look, I'm smarter for this.
And then some of the people whoare minded like that will very
much move away from anythingthat has to do with music or
emotion, and so they'll kind ofdisdain if people are playing
music.
And music really is a vehicle.

(24:29):
Music like they'll hear certainsongs and there'll be an
element of nostalgia, but thenyou hear certain songs.
It's like a vehicle to activateyou in a sense, like it's
activating a part of you, and sopeople are like, oh, this is
sensationalism or emotional in agravitate way, and so again,
like having an openness to kindof marry those two, two sides,

(24:51):
um, is it in the middle of yourhemisphere is your brain, your
penile gland, that's the thirdeye, like what we see in these,
all like kind of symbols, butthat that's you know.
I would say that that's theprojector screen in the mind.
So if you'd say somebody closeyour, close your eyes and
imagine a Coca-Cola bottle on ahot beach and you're sitting in
your chair, they wouldimmediately think about is it
glass, is it plastic, how do Ipicture it?

(25:12):
And they would immediatelypicture condensation running
down that.
So they're activating thosehemispheres of the brain For
people in the West.
Why that's really hard isbecause our school system
worships I shouldn't sayworships, but heavily emphasizes
the left brain function reading, writing, arithmetic, those
things, and then art, music allthese things are electives,

(25:34):
they're they're non-essentialsand they've actually done brain
scans of kids and the lefthemisphere of the brain will
swell and the right hemisphereof the brain will will lag
behind in growth.
And they studied.
Harvard tried to do a study ofwhat it means to create geniuses
or people who are verysuccessful in business, and they

(25:55):
completely abandoned the study.
And the reason why theyabandoned the study was because
they connected genius, or peoplewho are going to be successful
in a sphere of life, tocreativity, and creativity
plummets the longer people arein Western education.
It literally was like wheneverybody starts out in

(26:16):
kindergarten like five, sixyears old, and it's like saying,
by the time after they get tothe 13th year, only 2% of them
have like the threshold ofwhatever creativity they were
talking about.
So it's supposed to be likethis big, like multi-decade
study.
They abandon it because theyrealize like we can't track this

(26:37):
with such a small control group.
But all that said, that's a longway of saying that when we talk
about having dreams and havingvisions, if you had a dream, you
came to me and said, michael, Ihad this dream and this and
this and this happened.
If I'm just like a left brainanalytical person, I'm like good

(26:58):
for you, dude.
What did you?
Did you eat pizza before youwent to bed?
Like what, exactly?
What do you want me to do withthat pizza before you went to
bed?
Like what, what exactly?
What do you want me to do withthat?
But people throughout the, thecorpus of, of, when you talk
about mystics, they actuallywill make decisions out of what
they're encountering in thatstate, and the same thing with,
like, uh, and most people.

(27:18):
If let me reframe, you look at,like albert einstein or isaac
newton, the theories that theyhad came to them in a flash and
they'll use different languagearound.
But it was actually spontaneousthought, which is a vision of
sorts.
Uh, einstein's walking on thetrain platform, he turns around
to look at the clock and helooks back and then that's when
it clicks on his head.

(27:38):
When he turned to see what timeit was he the time had changed
by the time.
It took him to look back IsaacNewton to see what time it was
he the time had changed by time.
It took him to look back isaacnewton, the theory of gravity,
all that.
So there is a space for, in thepragmaticism of western life, to
solve problems and innovate andcreate.
The problem with that is iswe're trying to commoditize

(27:59):
mysticism and we're trying tomake it something, uh, that it's
perverted in a sense becauseit's it's about the inner man
and it's about transmutation andtranscendence of the of the
inner man.
Those other things areperipheral.
We can use it for that, um, butanyways, that that's the only

(28:20):
interest I've seen some peoplehave and it's like, oh, I can, I
can meditate and then figureout how to save my business.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
1.2 million dollars so I mean it would help if you
were in that situation, right,um, because I I think, um, as an
artist, I can acknowledge onething we don't really discover.
I mean, we don't inventanything, that's for sure, um,

(28:47):
and I don't even think wediscover, like, when it comes to
art.
Some of it might be a discovery, but I think most of it.
Once you have your practice tiptop, you begin to transmit,
channel.

(29:08):
I think that's more of what itis.
So when people say I'm inspired, it's essentially we're talking
about the muse showing up.
And so what is that muse?
I think this actually leads usinto a deeper topic which I
think people in the West shouldthink about more.

(29:29):
Like it's not just youoperating here.
And even when you say, innerman, that I love Carl Jung
because he's like a bridge, youknow, from the West to the East
and he, you know even, that'swhy Peterson also has an appeal
for a lot of people out there.

(29:49):
It's because he's bringing theworld of Jung to the front and
he's saying look, here's aframework for understanding and
comprehending, and I thinkthat's why we're even able to
have this conversation right now.
But channeling, yeah, jungtalked about active imagination,

(30:10):
so that's a whole thing, theactive imagination.
His book, the Red Book, camefrom this process, which he
calls active imagination, whichis essentially what prophets
would do.
You know, people like Ezekiel,jeremiah dudes like that in the
Bible.
You've got Jung doing this, andhe's an artist as well.

(30:34):
So he's illustrated thesevisions and he expands on the
subconscious and the collectiveunconscious and all of these
things.
But it's both in and out.
I think both are happeningsimultaneously.
The reason why I mentioned theout is because these ideas don't

(30:59):
just come from the, they don'tjust come from us, like we, yeah
, yeah, we have to channel, wehave to tune in and channel.
That tuning in part isdifficult for most people
because they get stuck in reallycrummy ways of thinking, you

(31:24):
know, and it really is nothelpful.
So if you want to be inspiredin all of that, you've got to be
able to find your zen, yourpeace in that storm, because the
muse, well, she can't.
It's difficult for her to comedown here.
This density, this vibration,it's very difficult and it's
difficult living on this in thismaterial plane.

(31:48):
You know, blankly put, it'sdifficult when we are not
conscious of greater thingsaround us.
So there's a spectrum that wecan visibly see in the
electromagnetic spectrum.
But there's a whole lot moreoutside of that.
And the same goes for ourhearing.
There's a whole lot moreoutside of what we can hear.

(32:09):
Our pets, you know.
They could be seeing angels andwe don't even know.
They could be seeing ET, and wedon't even know.
You know, we're really ignorantof most things.
I mean, that's the truth.
And so, yeah, people likeEinstein, people like Newton

(32:42):
Newton was an alchemist, right,he was into the woo-woo
essentially he was drinkingmercury subject, right in the
States, and the arts and thingslike that.
But without the arts, you know,you don't have that.
The imagination needs toexercise itself somehow.
Like theater is important.
I studied theater, theaterclass for two years at Hope Hope

(33:10):
College, and it's again aframework for thinking, for
storytelling, for your own life,because life is a stage, the
world is a stage.
We're all just players, asShakespeare says.
You know.
But you got to understand themechanics of play on a stage,
what it means to wear thepersona, the mask.
You know and understand, asabove so below the so, that the
nature of god, the image of god,god's allowed to wear masks too

(33:32):
, and god certainly does.
You see, we accept that in thispart of the world.
It's hard to accept in the west.
They want one thing, you know,um, and, and the west really
imported, uh, a more updated, uh, modern form of world religion,
which was this trend towardsmonotheism, from polytheism.

(33:55):
But yeah, when you go back intime, though, you understand
that God is many things, that weare, we, you know, we really we
come.
When you think about God, youhave to think about the soul.
You have to think about why wethink about God.
It's because of soul, it's theknowledge of the eternal that we

(34:16):
come from.
The eternal Eternal means youwere there from the beginning
and you will be there in the endand you will not be destroyed,
right, because you are eternal.
So the great illusion, the maya, is that you know death is a
real thing.
There's something to be afraidof.
The truth is that there'snothing to be afraid of.

(34:39):
Yeah, but then, in the West atleast, with Christianity, you've
got this.
You know, god's a very scaryguy, you know, and he's going to
get.
He's a jealous God and he'sgoing to get very upset with you
, and I mean he's basicallygoing to act like a
five-year-old and he might youknow, but worse, you know he

(35:04):
might do something verydangerous.
He might put you in an eternalfire.
And that's a horrifying thought, right, and yet we?
A horrifying thought, right,and yet we've adopted it, we've
okayed it.
Yeah, and we've okayed it.
When we wonder why there areproblems, why we don't feel
correct inside, it's becausethese things do not align with
the soul.
They do not.

(35:25):
We know better.
But look, you can't questionmom and dad.
You can't question the minister, right?
You can't question those youhave told, you have publicly put
trust in.
You know it's difficult forpeople at least you know that's

(35:46):
what I've discovered Like, Imean, I have spent time in both
sides of the camp, but it'sdifficult for people to switch.
It's difficult for people toforget, switch, just even just
step outside of all of it andjust see the bigger pattern
behind everything, because itreally is just going to repeat
itself in this side of the, theworld.

(36:08):
We call it karma.
It's something that wouldrepeat, it's a pattern that
keeps repeating until you stop,you sit with it, integrate, as
Jung says, and that really meanscoming to peace with it.
So what does that mean insimple terms For the soul?
The soul is here to learn.

(36:30):
The soul is here to grow.
The soul came here with purpose.
Right, we agreed to that beforecoming.
You're tracking with me yeah.
Yeah, from the eternalperspective.
When we get here, we haveamnesia because there's no need
to remember all of the past, thepast lives and all of that.
But we continue the journeyhere In this life.

(36:52):
There is a contract to fulfillIn this life, you know, there
are things to learn from ourparents.
There are things to learn fromour friends.
There's things to learn fromyou know, we choose the
circumstances of our birth aswell and who we are born to.
You know, that's a perspectivethat most people don't want to

(37:15):
carry, because forget thinkingabout death and what happens
after.
People don't want to thinkabout pre-birth and what
happened before, you know.
So that's why people just,they're just lost, right, they
don't know, like, where home is,and yet we cry for home all the
time.
Right, when somebody dies,we'll say they've gone home,

(37:39):
brother, they've gone home meanswhat Means.
You came from there, you knowwhat home feels like, right, but
you don't want to talk about it, you don't want a memento mori,
you know, and that's theproblem, like, because if you
just take that, you know, if you, if you just cross over to the

(38:02):
other side, say you die andcross over to the other side,
right, like, right now, michael,you will find that there was
nothing to be afraid of, becauseyou don't die, yeah, and you're
not going to burn up either.
Are you going to be judged?
Sure, why not, you know,because on the other side, there

(38:25):
is no contrast, right?
You can remember all things,you can see all things, and not
just from your perspective, fromeveryone's perspective.
So you get to review your life.
You know, the Christians talkabout a book of life.
This side of the world, we talkabout Akashic records and other
things, but there's a record ofeverything.

(38:47):
Essentially, that has happened,that will happen, but, yeah,
you get a review and then, foryour next round, you get to
improve, you get to continue thelearning, whatever it is that
you want to do, or you get torest.
It's up to you, right?
But we're down here living inthe ultimate simulation.

(39:11):
It is literally the matrix.
We're here being our lifeenergy is being sucked with this
like nine to five kind ofslavery.
I don't want to use these wordsbecause a lot of people are
doing that.
We all do.
We're a part of the system,right, but it is what it is.

(39:33):
The soul didn't come down hereto just do.
Just do that.
Just please, mom and dad, justyou know, get married and have
the 2.5 kids.
Just do that nine to five likea good, good boy.
It's not why we came here.
Yeah, I mean, part of thelearning is to learn how to do
that, to learn how to be a goodmember of society, learn how to
cooperate, you know, collaborate, all of that good stuff.

(39:56):
But we're also meant to learnhow to stand on our own feet,
how to discover the light within.
Okay, because there is reallyno other light that you can
count on in this world,especially today's world.
Now, that might scare somepeople, because when I say find

(40:19):
your light, they'll be like,yeah, but what about God's light
?
If you find that light, you'llfind that it is God's light.
They're scared, they don'ttrust themselves.
The is God's light.
They're scared, they don'ttrust themselves.
The way God trusts us.
God trusts his creation, hercreation.
It doesn't matter how we placeGod, it doesn't matter how we

(40:42):
define God, but one thing's forsure we come from unconditional
love and we get to experience.
On this side of the bridge, weget to experience what it means
to be separated, what it meansto be lost, okay what it means
to not have right.

(41:04):
On the other side, you got itall.
You have to come here toexperience all of this and this
is the only way the soul willgrow experientially.
And it's a beautiful thing whenyou maintain that bigger
perspective.
It gives you a lot of peace.
And, look, you don't have tobelieve in past lives and
reincarnation and all of that,because that's expanding, maybe

(41:27):
too far.
You can just see this as thisone life is what you got.
In fact, the sage would say youmust just look at the one day
as one life and that's all youhave Every day as that, just one
life, sun up to sun down, andthen you do your best with that
day.
But what does that mean?
Doing your best From the soulperspective?
It means, well, everything thatyou experience.

(41:51):
That is painful, that isfriction, right, that is a pain
in your butt.
You stop and you say, okay,what am I here to learn?
Okay, because that friction,that pain was designed.
It was pre-designed as part ofthe path for you to learn.

(42:13):
Now we get every day we get thepattern repeating Okay, the
same, problems with our spouse,the same, you know, issues with
work, you know all of thesethings will keep repeating and
the pain repeats until we dealwith it.
These things will keeprepeating and the pain repeats
until we deal with it.
Dealing with it is yeah, whatam I here to learn?
So the Jews, I mean theKabbalists, they call this

(42:37):
tikkun, which is soul correction, right, that the soul, before
it came here, had already placedthese sort of these challenges
to remind you that you're hereto grow and shape in a certain
way, you know.
So, the soul, essentially.

(42:58):
So, if we were to talk aboutthe soul, the soul is a vessel,
okay, but it's not just a vesselin a static sense.
You have to think about it likea seed, okay.
So keep these two metaphors inmind, right, a vessel is there
to receive.
You get to receive from thelight.

(43:19):
Okay, you get to, but a vesselcan only receive as much as it
has a capacity for.
Okay.
Now think about the seed.
The seed is your vessel.
The seed is the soul.
Okay, it is at least the partof your soul that you can
comprehend right now.

(43:40):
Okay, because the soul isreally, really big.
Our vessel can't even containthe entirety of our soul, right?
So our job here is to expandthe vessel, right, but then also
allow for more soul to come in.
Yeah, and that's really whatwe're meant to do on the
everyday, sunup to sundown.

(44:00):
It's that, and any situationcan allow us to move in that
higher direction.
So you'll be like why is my bossbeing such a, you know, a mean
person to me today?
Well, that's okay, it doesn'tmean you're doing something
wrong.
If you want, if you want thatwhole thing to stop because it
keeps coming up again and again,there is a way.

(44:21):
Well, yeah, most people,unfortunately, and unfortunately
, yeah, they don't want thesimplicity of it, right?
Because I just talked aboutKabbalah and that's from the.
You know that was Abraham'sreligion, that was Adam's

(44:42):
religion.
You know it's like that wasYeshua's.
I wouldn't say religion,because it's not really religion
, right, it's a system,mechanics of the universe.
But who was privy to thatinformation?
Not everybody.
The common man does not getthat information.
Today we have access to thisinformation and you can empower

(45:05):
yourself with that knowledge.
But even then, it's reallydifficult to read some of these
books.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
Yeah I think, like some of the, there's like an
overlap on some ideas and thenthere's like a reframing of
ideas.
So if you talk about karma andlike that whole thing, I think
from biblical perspective you'rejust going to talk about
generational curses, thatthere's going to be a pattern
that's just going to keephappening over and over and over
.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
That's cool they do talk about.
I think that's a good.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
I didn't think of that and then, when you talk
about reincarnation and theafterlife, there's ideas that
have been adopted.
Basically, an idea just keepscondensing down on itself, and
then we arrive at thisconclusion, as if it's always
been like this, and so I hadthis conversation before about
you mentioned, like the jews, sothe jews had this kind of

(45:55):
ambiguous relationship with theafterlife and they would talk
about there's shiel, which isthe place where, like dead, it's
a collective kind of thinking,not an individual thinking, but
just like, okay, dead people arekind of there.
And then there's this idea thatemerged of gehenna, which is
like a geographical locationoutside of Israel, but they kind
of came up with this concept ofbasically what the Catholics
would call purgatory.

(46:15):
So basically, normally it'sabout 12 months.
If you're a real bad person,sometimes it'd be extended out,
but it's basically kind of acleansing of the soul, like
post-mortem, god is going tohave to deal with you before you
move on with the collectivethere.
And so how did those ideascarry over?
Were those ideas carried overand the Catholics adopted this

(46:38):
idea of purgatory, which isGehenna, and they adopted this
idea of heaven and hell?

Speaker 2 (46:45):
No, no one needs to adopt.
I think that's one way oflooking at it, but it's like
overcomplicating it.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
Well, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
It's like they start all over the world, like even
right now, people's view of theother side, each person's
experience, is going to bedifferent.
So I'm talking about peoplethat have actually crossed over,
like near-death experiencers.
So there's a lot of those guys,you know.
So there's a lot of those guys.
Now, what they see and whatthey experience on the other

(47:11):
side whether it's Jesus Christor an archon or a bodhisattva,
or their family members or theirancestors depends on the
framework that they acceptedwhen they were alive.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
That's the deal.
Yeah, if I was, if I was goingto be like a devil's advocate,
uh, here, like argue the point,I'd say that the brain was
flooded with dmt good from thetraumatic brain or from where
you're getting there to deathand you're having this
experience.
My only point there was that Iwas just trying to like kind of
walk through like where theseideas emerged, because you threw
out a lot of things there, andso the idea you referenced

(47:51):
eternal punishment, and then you, and then there's an idea of
basically destruction andthere's another idea of
universal atonement, and sothese three ideas were kind of
played with in the early churchwere kind of played with in the
early church.
Augustine is the one whopopularized eternal punishment

(48:13):
that if you don't make the rightdecision in this life, then
post-mortem you're going to goto a place that's going to be
real unpleasant for you, foreverand there's just no recourse
there.
In Asia Minor they had thisidea that for some people you
were just so bad that your, youreternal essence was snuffed out
, that your spirit, soul is justyour consciousness ceases to

(48:35):
exist, which that's thedefinition of death, is ceased
to exist, which that doesn't.
That's not real because, toyour point.
We are eternal beings andbecause we're coming from the
source and if I come from thesource then I'm going to share
some of the qualities, or allthe qualities of the source, and
so the idea of universalatonement was that which this is
more sword to the side that Ilean into is that Jesus said

(48:57):
when I be lifted up, I'm goingto draw all men to me.
When we read that, it was theland that was crucified before
the foundations of the world,what does that mean?
That means outside of time,space and matter, something has
happened, and then we can pointto in time, space and matter
something has happened, and wecan point to in time, space and
matter when that thing happened.
And so there's a place wheresomebody is God, becomes a human
, is crucified and resurrectedfrom the dead.

(49:17):
That happened in time, spaceand matter, but that happened
outside of time, space andmatter.
And so we're happening insideof time, space and matter, but
we've happened outside of time,space and matter.
That's how he's able to saythat I have drawn all men to me
and that's why Paul says I'vebeen co-crucified.
The life I now live, I nolonger exist.
It's Christ who lives in me,because I've become unified with
this person, we become Siamesetwins or more than that, and so

(49:42):
universal atonement leans on theidea that, whether you want it
or not, like it or not, believeit or not, you've been unified
with the creator of everythingthat exists.
But from CS Lewis' perspectivewas that there's a book that he
wrote called the Great Divorce,and in the Great Divorce it was
an allegory where people couldbe in hell as a geographical

(50:03):
place and a state of being,where you have the choice to be
there.
Yes, unconditional love ispointed towards you.
But there's a bus that cameevery day and went into hell and
it went up to heaven everysingle day and there was nothing
prohibited you of going fartherinto into heaven, uh, to be
with god.
But people would find, like hehad all these avatars, the

(50:23):
character archetypes, that theywould find the reason to get
back on the bus and go back down.
And he makes a very uh solidpoint of if I am the guy having
this human experience and I havewrong belief systems about what
this human experience is he'slike, if I don't understand that
I live forever.
If I'm going to choose to bebitter towards you, johnny, you
do something wrong to me and Idon't forgive you and I want to

(50:44):
have vengeance on you and Istart to become bitter and
jealous or envious or whatever.
If I only live from a Westernstandpoint, if I only live for
like 50, 60, 70 years, we know,we can quantify that I can
develop arthritis in my bones.
I can literally have heartproblems.
There's actually a Japanese,the Japanese figure this out.

(51:05):
They call it broken heartsyndrome and literally if people
have a lot of stress orwhatever, like there's a kind of
heart condition.
I know this because my mom wentthrough this.
That's called broken heartsyndrome.
So we know that the things thatweigh on the soul and the
spirit can have a physicalimpact on the body.
But if I'm only living for 70years, my life doesn't have that

(51:28):
much meaning or purpose and itdoesn't really matter if I be
bitter for 70 years.
I feel this physical.
Now, if I live for a millionyears or let's say I live
forever, but like in a millionyears imagine quantitatively
that compounding over a millionyears of bitterness, a million
years of vengeance, a millionyears, and that that literally

(51:48):
becomes hell.
That's what Lewis pointed to.
Is that that that'll becomeyour state of being a million
years and that literally becomeshell.
That's what Lewis pointed to isthat that'll become your state
of being, but your geographicallocation.
And in that book, the GreatDivorce, people who chose to be
there.
They didn't like other people,and so you could see houses way
farther, farther, farther out,and that's where Hitler was,

(52:09):
because they just so much hatedpeople.
And God in the creation storyhad a series of benedictions.
He created the earth and theheavens it's good.
He separated the light and thedark it's good.
Animals it's good, good, good,good.
And the last thing that he saidafter the benedictions that he
cursed is it's not good for manto be alone.
It's not good for man to bealone.

(52:31):
We're actually meant to bewithin relationship with each
other.
We're supposed to have commonunion, communion with each other
and with God.
And that was the whole point ofuniversal atonement is to
reconcile, which means to breakseparation, restore relationship
between humanity and itself andthe creator of everything that
exists.
That was the point there.
And to break separations meansyou have to stop dispute.

(52:51):
And to stop dispute means youhave to engage with these things
we're talking about.
And so, from Lewis'sperspective, hell is God's final
granting of man's wish to beleft alone, not God is in a
courtroom as the gatekeeper perse.

(53:12):
Now, I know that some peoplethat that'll be counterculture,
but I would just say this isthat when if I'm looking from
this from a Christianperspective, when Jesus comes
onto the scene, it's a minorityviewpoint.
Everything he's saying,everything he's teaching,
christians say, oh, this is thetruth.

(53:32):
It was a minority viewpoint atthe time.
It was viewed as a cult, it wasanti-Judaism at the time, and
then it gained traction andbuilt and built, and built.
And so there's an assumptionthat Augustine's perspective
because it was a majorityviewpoint of eternal punishment
is what should be adoptedreadily, because the masses

(53:55):
decided to agree with it.
And my perspective is thatnobody really knows post-mortem
what we're dealing with there.
But I think that there is someoverlap on ideas.
I think probably where the rubhappens, where the buck stops,

(54:16):
the hinge point of everything iswhen I had this conversation is
when we start talking aboutoverlap of ideas.
It's like was there actually aperson named Jesus who actually
lived on this earth, whoactually was the incarnation of
God, who actually died on across, who actually resurrected
the dead literally, notfiguratively?
That actually happened.

(54:36):
And if that actually happened,then we have like two different
kind of uh perspectives to hold.
One is that well, if thatactually happened, then I do
have some kind of moralresponsibility to enforce that.
If it never happened, or Idon't know if it happened, I can
take that standpoint, but Ihave somewhat of a moral
responsibility?

Speaker 2 (54:55):
definitely.
I don't know why people keepdebating on whether or not
Yeshua existed.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Well, not the existence but the resurrection
is probably the point.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
Everything.
I mean, why do people see it asso impossible?
I mean, this goes back to whatwe were talking about People
they have no concept of anythingbeyond just the material
experience, know they don't evengive it a chance and, like
jesus, you know there's, there'sokay sorry, I threw a bunch of

(55:29):
stuff at you quite a bit, but Ithink I want to just touch upon.
You mentioned shale, right, youmentioned the, the different
groups and the debates on theafterlife, even among the Jews.
And at the time of Jesus youhad three of these groups the

(55:49):
Pharisees and the Sadducees, andthose two debated amongst
themselves.
And then you had these outliers, the Essenes, where John the
Baptist comes from, jesus comesfrom there, yeshua comes from
there.
And the Essenes if you look attheir framework, they're the

(56:10):
ones that introduced baptism forstarters.
They never believed in ritualsacrifice.
Okay, so they were alwaysliving on the fringes because
they did not believe in animalsacrifice.
Right, and a lot of their textsyou can find that you know,
some of these texts are writtena couple hundred years before
Jesus enters the scene.
So Jesus is not all that uniquein terms of saying something so

(56:34):
radical.
You know, and out there, youknow, he was still a very
respected man who spoke inwisdom and stature and had favor
with God and men.
You know, you remember that,right, he had the respect with
those in the Sanhedrin, it'sjust that.
Yeah, he was an Essene.
And you know those boys, youknow they just they were right

(56:56):
about some stuff, but no onewanted to.
Like ever, you didn't want toremove sacrifices from the thing
because it was a big, there wasa lot of money there.
Right, jesus is using that whipin the temple because, yeah,
because, like dude, they hadmade a whole racket out of it
and but this wasn't like it wasa new thing.
They were the Essenes were.

(57:16):
They saw that as a problemright from the get you know.
So this is a really old storywith those people.
But I think the people thatchoose to follow like Abraham's
religion, like and call itChristianity, they argue over
this.
The things that I don't knowyou're not even meant to argue
over, like it's just.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
What was the?
You mentioned this word before,but that was the one part that
I left out.
There was Sheol, there was thisGehenna and then the world that
is to come, takthulum orsomething like this.
I'm butchering the word, butit's the world that is to come

(57:54):
and that's what you're enteringinto.
There's like these three kindof pools or buckets.
Uh, there, and I find it quiteinteresting, like one thing I do
find interesting when we talkabout reincarnation and this
idea of and you said we'reliving in simulation is uh, uh,
they said like okay, you'regoing to be in the afterlife,
you're going to be given a newmind, a new body, and I always

(58:16):
think about like role-playingvideo games, because when I
start a role-playing video game,I just create this avatar and I
can make it look how I want orwhatever, and I just get dropped
into this digital world and I'mjust kind of roaming around
this world by consciousness,controlling this, this thing,
but I can plop into other worldsand so there's like layers of
dimensions that you can justkind of move through.
So we see these buckets thatthey're talking about, like

(58:37):
shield, gana, knock, I can'tremember the word, um and so
that idea of like being ploppedin a different bucket, of an
experience like of, okay, nowI'm a dog this time, now I'm
this stuff, this whatever.
Um, it doesn't, it doesn't,outright, I don't know.
I I just find it interesting,like post-mortem we get plopped

(59:00):
into another, uh, meat bag, orif, if, like or or maybe a
silicon-based life form orsomething, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
But see, you probably pick your meat bag and, yeah,
it might be a dog and in onelife, because you're gonna learn
a lot from being a dog youlearn a lot from being a female
dog in the same way, there's alot you've learned from.
You know a male human and afemale human.
There's a lot that we're goingto learn from you know, a
caucasian human?

(59:29):
Or, uh, you know a person of,uh, some other asian?
Right, you know, it's all thesame thing.
At the end of the day, the meatbag, as you rightly put it, is
just a vessel for the soul andlike that's like.
I keep going back to thatbecause that is the only
perspective worth carrying andlike the debates about is there

(59:50):
a heaven, is there a hell?
Well, yeah, I mean yeah, likeeverything.
You manifest everything right,right, like, including the hell,
okay, and it is an eternalplace, because when you're there
, when have you, if you've beento hell, right, like, and you
can talk to some people who'vedealt with addiction, you've
dealt with, um, mental healthissues and you know other things

(01:00:12):
like that, uh, there's somehellish, hellish experiences
that you can have and itdefinitely feels like an
eternity, but when you get outof it, it's likeish, hellish
experiences that you can haveand it definitely feels like an
eternity, but when you get outof it, it's like, wow, it feels
like a miracle, doesn't it?
And it feels like some handstretched down and pulled you
out of that.
Sometimes that's the only wayyou can get out of that.
And so that again that comes asthat idea, that Christian idea

(01:00:33):
of you know the Redeemer and theSavior.
But it's not just a Christianidea.
I mentioned bodhisattva earlier.
That's the Buddhist term for asavior, an ascended master who's
already crossed over, doesn'tneed to come back.
But they come back to doexactly what Yeshua did To them.
It's not like it's a big deal,it's like they still do it today

(01:00:59):
.
You, you've got um the dalailama.
In fact I'm wearing this thingis from the dalai lama.
Uh, got it.
A friend of mine got it fromrishi kesh, but that tibetan
book of the dead, when talkingabout the journey of um the soul
, right, well, for them, theywill.
They know the time and theplace when an Ascended Master is

(01:01:21):
going to sort of reincarnateand they've got questions and
cues and props which this childwill select, and they will know
that that you know the AscendedMaster has reincarnated into the
body of that child.
That's how they do it.
It's very, very cool.
Ascended Master hasreincarnated into the body of
that child.
That's how they do it.

(01:01:41):
It's very cool how they do it,but it's very normal.
Again, how much of thecontainer, the perspective do
you want to hold right?

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
Is it in Tibet where they do the sky funerals?

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
Yeah, they do that.
They do that.
The Zoroastrians, I know, dothat.
Right, the Parsis, they do that.
The sky funeral.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
So, yeah, a vulture, they're going to eat your flesh.
Yeah, they just leave you upthere to be consumed, and back
into the circle of life.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
You hear elton john singing in the background.
Yeah, would you prefer to beburied or um cremated or?

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
I think cremated yeah it's like I think it's just
very like pragmatic.
Uh of like I I think like afuneral industry within the
States is a is a racket.
I think it's it's crazy thatyou pay, you know, 12, 15,000
plus dollars to like laysomebody to to rest in your
family and they, they kind of,they'll kind of leverage your

(01:02:52):
grief of like, oh, michael,johnny was your friend and you
want to do right by Johnny,don't you?
And get him thisplatinum-coated casket here and
the gravestone.
I mean, he really likes StarWars, michael.
It's just a couple hundreddollars more, but we want to put
that Millennium Falcon on theback of that gravestone to honor
Johnny, don't we?
I'm not saying they're all likethat, I'm just saying I just

(01:03:14):
find it's pretty straightforwardif you're cremated and then
it's done.
It's fine, like it's prettystraightforward if you're if
you're cremated and then it'sdone.
But, um, there's a lot of likealternative methods have came,
like there's there's one scamthat came out with those people
what do you think happens whenyou die?

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
because you said that you think it's just dmt, that's
flooding the brain I didn't saythat.

Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
I said I was playing.
I was playing devil's advocateof what, like somebody, I kind
of of want to.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
Well, I kind of want to.
You can't just like.
I want to play devil's advocateand not let me respond.
Okay, okay, you know.
So the DMT thing, huh, that'sfair.
Okay, dmt is going to give youa trip?
Okay, but this is not the samekind of a trip.

(01:03:58):
Give you a trip, okay, but thisis not the same kind of a trip.
These near-death experiencestories are not they're not
spoken of in the same way as atrip.
There's more lucidity andclarity in these experiences and
those who've experienced itwill often say it was more real
than real life.
It wasn't a trip.
In fact, they were outside oftheir body, many of them, and
they're able to see.

(01:04:18):
This is when they're many ofthem and they're able to see.
This is when they're completelyunconscious, brain dead.
They're able to see who'soperating on them.
They're able to hearconversations and they're able
to recall, after they've comeback, who was doing, what,
saying what.
Right, that's weird, right, umand um.
There's more like so the lifereviews and things like that.

(01:04:39):
They get insight into parts oftheir life that, uh, you know,
they, they, they just docompletely blind to right.
They're getting instructionabout their future, you know,
and the coming back changedpeople.
These are not people that uhare quite the same.
They all have have very, very,very similar testimonies.

(01:05:01):
They're basically, yeah, thereis another side.
There is a sort of a judgment,but they don't use that word.
It's like review, okay, becauseyou get to see everything that
you've done, but not just fromyour perspective, from the
perspective of the other person,someone that you've.
So if you've done somethinggood for someone and you didn't
even know how big of a deal thatwas, you get to experience what

(01:05:22):
that was like.
You know how your words changesomeone else's life day,
whatever.
But if you hurt someone, youget to see what that does as
well.
So then it makes sense that youknow you'd want to kind of come
back and get a redo.
But yeah, most people that comeback and get a redo, um, but
yeah, most people that come back, they don't even want to come
back because they're so damngood on the other side.

(01:05:44):
You know it's like I've heardconflicting.
I mean they say like people havesimilar experiences, like I'd
say like I don't know there arepeople that have had hellish
experiences, but it's a very,very small percentage, maybe
around five percent, okay, but Ican talk more about that if
you're curious about that,because we did discuss hell.
So, as an experience.
On the other side, it doesexist how people get out of that

(01:06:06):
, because they are able to comeback.
They came back to tell thestory.
So how they got out of hell isthere's a common thread to that
and it's that they don't do iton their own.
They don't walk out of it ontheir own.
They don't have a key in theirpocket to open the door.
It's not like that.
They essentially surrender andthen something comes to get them

(01:06:28):
, whether it's Jesus Christ orMother Mary or whatever it is.
It is another figure that ispulling them out of that.
And, yeah, but many people don'texperience that.
So, like a lot of atheists thathave that experience, they
don't go through a hellnecessarily because they just
don't even have that framework.

(01:06:48):
They have not accepted and theymight not see like saints or
angelic beings.
They'll see like it could beother versions of themselves.
It could be ancestors, you knowit'll be whatever they're cool
with.
So that's another thing,because what it teaches us is
that the imagination is veryimportant.

(01:07:09):
You know the, the stories youand then, and the myth that you
allow to make up your worldviewand framework is super important
.
It affects how we operate inthe world and the day-to-day,
and it entirely affects whathappens on the other side, at
least how we perceive things onthe other side.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
Yeah Carl Jung was kind of pointing to, I'm going
to paraphrase into like, if you,I'm gonna paraphrase.
But basically, if you came upwith the concept of mickey mouse
and I came up with the conceptof bugs bunny, that like bugs
bunny and mickey mouse actuallyexists somewhere in another
dimension, like as actualentities like me, and you
thought them up and they'reactually in that other dimension

(01:07:51):
, like interfacing brought themup.
Yeah, yeah, and there's, there'sa collective of consciousness,
basically, where ideas just kindof get dumped into.
And one thing that youmentioned earlier was and I'm
not nuanced on this, I justheard it in passing in a podcast
, but they talked about that inone part of the world there will
be a group of monkeys and theywill learn how to do something,

(01:08:13):
or they will be doing something,and then on the entire other
side of the world they've neverinteracted with each other, but
they will start exhibiting likea certain like kind of behavior,
and it's happened with rats andit's happened with other kinds
of animals I don't remember theword for it, but it's a
phenomenon within science thatthey're trying now to understand
.
Um, unlike how that's happening, but it would, for me, kind of

(01:08:34):
point to a collectiveconsciousness that, like, even
though they're not interactingor like overlapping in a
geographical space, they'restill able to pull from that.
And and when we talk aboutcreativity and art, I would say,
like, most of the time and Idon't want to diminish anything
that people have done but say,and even in innovation, most of
the time what's happening isyou're synthesizing, you're

(01:08:56):
synthesizing a, a what hasalready been, uh, versus like
you're actually reaching outinto the ethos, into something
that never has existed, andpulling it in.
I think it can happen veryrarely.
Most people are not that kindof creative.
Most people are synthesizers,where they can like take things
and like take a collective ofthings and then change it into

(01:09:17):
something.
And same thing with innovationis it's just like stacking ideas
on, like the previous idea.
You're not really creating.
You're creating something new,but it's like you're innovating
on the ideas of of other people,if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
But I think anyways, I have can I add to that
perspective run for it?
I have to have like thecollective or three minutes.
Yeah, it's a massive idea.
So you've got monkeys on twosides of the world that are
growing in the same way, right.
Well, I want to add this thateven for human beings it would
happen in the same way even ifwe were not globalized, and
that's how it kind of happenedthroughout history they found

(01:09:53):
that, though that that's.
That was the connection pointthey were making yeah, and so I
going to just leave you withthis.
The world of astrology, right,and how we evolve over eons and
shape shift over eons.
There's a time and a season foreverything to happen.
The human story kind of followsthe astrological narrative.

(01:10:16):
The journey of the stars is thejourney of us and it continues.
And, yeah, I think there is atime for change.
When it does happen, when themonkey kind of shifts, I think
it happens as a collective,unconscious upgrade, and then
there's also externalenvironmental factors that will

(01:10:37):
influence the change.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
As well, I'll try to find it for the next podcast
that we do.
I'll find out what it actuallyis and I'll send it to you so we
can kind of unpack it, becauseit was.
I wasn't explaining it great,but it was like nuanced of like
they were exhibiting something.
That's just.
They've never interacted.
It's something like randomthere.
When you talk about astrologyjust to clarify for people who

(01:11:01):
listening you're you're talkingabout the actual study of like
the stars.
You're not talking abouthoroscopes, you're talking about
like I'm talking abouthoroscopes as well well, all
right.
Well, that that's conversationof the time.
I think horoscopes, but I thinkastrology is like real, because
they they use the star to findjesus.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Horrible.
I mean, look, they're calledtransits and then you can
actually figure out your ownfuture.
You don't have to look at itfrom some fortune cookie kind of
perspective.
It's quite a vast subject.
If you do give it a chance, youwill find that, especially if
you're kind of on the mysticalside of things, I mean mean, do

(01:11:38):
remember that you know, jesuswas discovered by the a star,
yeah, but that's what I wassaying, that that's.

Speaker 1 (01:11:44):
That's a study of like astrology joseph knew his
astrology as well.

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
He was the right hand of the pharaoh, you know.
So I mean, and the, thekabbalah astrology, the, the
tropical zodiac contemporary, uh, astrology today, uh, a lot of
it is borrowed from kabbalah.
Okay, and that's the.
The judeo-christian historyincludes that, so I wouldn't

(01:12:08):
just throw the baby out with thebath water here yeah, what I'm
talking about is like in thenewspaper.
They like give out like yourson's sign, so there's actually
a whole lot more than just thesun that influences you, and
they did it.
They did why I say it's likethey did it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:27):
They did a controlled study and they like gave like
uh, people all the same samehoroscope and like 85 percent of
people said, oh yeah, thatthat's me, but they, they're all
like completely different.
Um, there, but, dude, I have a,I have a meeting that I have to
to hop for, but, uh, appreciateyou jumping on and unpack what.
We have a lot of stuff tounpack, moving forward, uh and

(01:12:50):
this in a part two and partthree yeah, yeah, I love you,
dude.
Thanks for making the timeappreciate.

Speaker 2 (01:12:56):
Appreciate you.
This was fun.

Speaker 1 (01:12:58):
Yeah, all right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):
All right, take care.

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):
Bye, bye-bye.
If something in thisconversation stirred you good,
that discomfort, that curiosity,that moment of stillness you
felt, where maybe you werechallenged, maybe you're
offended, maybe you're upset,maybe you were enlightened.
That's where transformationbegins.

(01:13:21):
One of my deep beliefs is I'mnot really interested in
creating platforms of revelationor dialogue to tell people what
to think, but more so to unpackideas and that people discover
why they should be thinking inthe first place and different
pathways on how to think,different access points.

(01:13:44):
And so the goal here isn't tosettle things and who's right,
and it's opening the door todeeper thought, to harder
questions, to more honest livingand maybe, in that process, to
recover a sense of the sacred ina world that's been forgotten
to us.
If that meant something to you,share it, not because you need

(01:14:05):
more noise in the world by anymeans, but because we need more
voices willing to slow down toexplore things in depth.
We're going to be unpackingthis conversation over several
hours, moving forward, send itto someone who's asking maybe
similar questions and, if youhave not subscribe to the

(01:14:26):
podcast, and throw a review down, because that is training the
algorithm on who to put thepodcast in front of.
And so these things help morethan you know.
So this is only the beginning.
We've got more to explore andyou're invited to come with us.
So until next time, keepseeking, keep questioning.