Breaking Bias and Unmasking Assumptions: A Fight for Meaning, Morality, and Culture in an Age of Division

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
All right, guys Got another one with a great and
powerful Tim Churchward.
This one covers a ton of ground, from big societal stuff to
some really personal stories.
Tim and I talk about everythingfrom stress and social media to
beauty standards and theinfluence of groupthink on our
personal beliefs pretty heavyterritory, discussing

(00:25):
postmodernism, the dangers ofecho chambers and the importance
of self-reflection in breakingcycles of injustice.
What's really cool about Tim ishe's not just talking about
theory.
As an intellectual, he livesthis stuff.
He's out there teaching youngpeople, he's running a school,
he's building bridges within hisown community and he's getting
into really tough conversationsabout things like abortion and
gender roles and social media'simpact on mental health.

(00:46):
This guy is a unique mix offaith, philosophy and experience
that makes one hell of aperspective.
So if you're up for theconversation that challenges
your views and makes you think alittle bit, you're going to
love this one.
Buckle up, this is a wild ride.
Let's get into it.
Welcome to the map.
Two, one, zero, all enginerunning, okay, um, and have you

(01:23):
ever seen, before we dive inhere, you ever seen Peaky
Blinders?
You ever seen this show?
uh, yeah, like a couple of timesokay, I like, uh, I sat down
with Vanessa Vanessa was.
She dated this guy from Waleslike forever and so she lived in
the in the in the UK for aperiod of time also, and I was

(01:44):
kind of jarred by the fact thatI could clearly understand
everything that everybody wassaying, but she couldn't
understand anybody.
I mean, english is my firstlanguage and I'm used to like
appalachian, like different kindof dialects in english, but she
could not understand anybody inthat show.
When killian whatever his namewould like talk like I, I fell
in love with the accent that hehad there, but she was lost.

(02:04):
But yeah, yeah, it wasethically violent.
That show, bro, it's like it,you know.
But the arc at the end of it,the arc of the story, what was
like really jarring to me youknow, spoiler alert is at the
end of the show.
He like this is a guy who'sjust purely driven by like um,
reckless abandon of like how farcan I take my life?

(02:27):
Because he like served in thefirst world war?
He was in these tunnelsunderground.
Uh, you know, it was like which, the worst, one of the worst
jobs you could take.
Everybody when they found outhe was a decorated soldier doing
that.
They like kind of stepped backbecause these guys were like the
og badass kind of guys and himand his brother had this like
philosophy that everything thatwe have in life now is gifted to

(02:47):
us, like we should have diedthere.
We actually died there, whoeverwe were, we're died there.
But like he didn't take it in aredemptive way, like a
Christian, like I died to myself.
He took it in like like I'mgoing to maximize the amount of
risks that I can take and likehe just like skyrockets into
like you know, wealth, but thenalso like political uh,

(03:08):
prominency, blah, blah, blah.
But at the end like he likegoes on his, like he figures out
like everybody who messedmessed him over at the end and
just goes back, tries to go onthis vendor streak.
And the last episode, the theclock on the tower is is chiming
and it remembered uh, 11, 11,like whenever they declared the

(03:28):
end of the war and like peace,whatever.
And then he had this likeepiphany and then he's just like
oh, I'm just gonna go be agypsy somewhere and like live in
peace, I'm not gonna seekvengeance for people anymore.
And it was like a greatcharacter arc of somebody like
going through the humancondition and trying to like
follow their thoughts throughthe human condition and trying
to like follow their thoughtsall the way through, and he was

(03:48):
absolutely miserable, like helike had as much wealth, has
much women, has much you know,uh, influence as you could get
from people, but, um, his lifewas super stressful, that's, it
just stressed me out all thetime, um, but anyways, uh, so
like, last time that we were, wewere chatting, one of the

(04:09):
things I want to talk about,which you never actually got
into, was a confirmation bias.
Yeah, how now, with social mediaand the way that algorithms are
wired to just keep us engagedwith scrolling on our phone as
much as possible to generate asmuch ad revenue as possible, is
there's like a balance that itplays with you and you can look

(04:32):
into this, but there's certaintimes of the day where more
negative stuff will come on youralgorithm to spike your
cortisol, and there's othertimes where it'll be funny stuff
, stuff'll make you laugh, whereit's going to like whatever,
and that's that's reallyintentional uh, in terms of like
if people to just it's moredistracting, keep you engaged at

(04:52):
work, if it's like more funnystuff and like the outrage stuff
, just like in the nightly newscycles or the morning news and
nightly news, the contrast willbe a little bit different, uh,
in terms of what they report,but it's about to keep you
engaged on that content, so it'snot a nefarious thing in the
sense of they want to make asmuch money as possible.
Now the social media platformsand these tech giants have

(05:14):
figured out we can leveragethese to affect elections.
Zuckerberg admitted to thatopenly like we in fact, uh
influence the 2020 election.
He testified to that point.
Um, but a byproduct of that iswe get stuck in this what's
called an echo chamber, butbasically we're just hearing

(05:36):
what we believe and we're seeingthe lens through what we
believe, which radicalizespeople more in their ideas um,
as in, as in what?

Speaker 2 (05:44):
what you input is reflected back to you in output
from someone else.
So you think that everybodythinks exactly like you and
you're outraged and someone canthink differently.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, yeah, and so one of the things I'm trying to
do now is after the election andlike full disclaimer.
Uh, you know, when the election, I, like everybody, when the
election was over, in the firstcouple of days I was, you know,
you had two kind of reactionslike.
One was like celebratory peopleare dunking on people funny

(06:13):
memes like ha ha ha.
Other people are like screamingin their cars, crying, like
talking about researching,looking to move to another
country, even here, bro, eventhe uk, where it's not our
election, people were doing thatyeah.
So what we, what we kind of needto figure out now is we've been
the, so social media andinstitutions well, let me just

(06:38):
stop there.
We're talking about where we'regetting our info from.
So, like frederick nicha backin like the 1800s, said god is
dead, we've killed him, blah,blah, blah.
And like the gay sciences book,where he's writing and he
wasn't saying in like atriumphant way, peterson talks
about this, but he's basicallyjust questioning now that we
have enlightenment, now that wehave humanism, uh, what do we?

(06:59):
Is that what's going to replacegod?
And that's kind of a terrifyingthought, because we've built
all the, and me and you havetalked about this in the past we
built everything on westernsociety, on judeo christian
values.
So if we're going to abandonthat and build something else,
where will that take us?
Because, where it's taken, theunited states has become the
biggest military superpower inthe history of the world and the
biggest economic engine in theworld.

(07:20):
Not that that's the end, all beall, but that's what it
partially what it produced.

Speaker 2 (07:24):
Um I mean in germany they?
They took it to the ubermention thing, didn't they say
about the idea of the overman,the, the, the great man, that
nietzsche never meant to be that, but the nazis took it to that
level yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
So when nietzsche said that, he was like
questioning, what do we replacethis with?
And, like lewis and in MereChristianity in the first
chapters he talks about, whenwe're approaching this idea of
Christianity, we have to do itwith some soberness and we can't
.
He meaning he was talking toeverything that led up to the
first world war.

(07:59):
So for everybody listening tothis, before the first world war
, people were drunk on the ideathat humans were just great and
that we were going to createthis utopia and everything was
on the fast track to bit, toprosperity, to everything like

(08:19):
being awesome, and it was allpeople being basically being
driven by what media was tellingthem positive feedback loops
and their endocrine system.
Because what happened in theearly 1900s was as much a train
wreck as what you could surmise.
Like worldwide it was a trainwreck.
We're talking about economicalcollapses, the Great Depression
in the United States.

(08:39):
The Deutsche Daymark hadhyperinflation.
They had to bail out theircurrency, which took them a long
time, which took othercountries helping them forming
three other currencies.
We had a first world war andthen, after the first world war,
they're like my God, we'llnever do that again.
Not very long later, we had asecond world war, which was
worse, which was even crazier tothink about.

(09:01):
The Second World War was worsethan the First World War, with
that trench warfare where peoplewere just being hamburgered by
machine guns and tanks and seton fire.
The Second World War was worsebecause we industrialized murder
.
Genocide was coming to theforefront of thought when you're
talking about the Uba Minj andthen we created the most
horrific weapon that the worldhad ever known with an atomic

(09:24):
bomb and we vaporized two cities.
Hundreds of thousands ofcivilians died in those bombings
in an instant.
Next Well, that was what wascoming.

(09:45):
Next, we were creating our ownTower of Babel.
We abandoned these ideas and wethought as long as economy is
good, medical science isprospering, globalism is
prospering, we're going to getto the right place.
And we found out reallyviolently and really abruptly.
People are not, in fact, good,and the Nuremberg trials spoke
to that, because the Germanswere saying we didn't do
anything wrong.
Our state told us this is thelaw.

(10:07):
We followed the law.
That's what good citizens do,and you live in a different
state who has different laws.
Every country has differentlaws, and it created this
conundrum in the court systemthere because they were like
that's actually true.
Every country does have lawsand we don't want our citizens
to be dissidents, but there'sactually something higher than
the state's power.
There's something called goodand evil that we would actually

(10:27):
subscribe to in these courtsystems, and we are going to
judge you not on the laws thatyou were following within your
state, but in a higher uh, ahigher uh order if you want to
say yeah yes, and that wasreally profound.
People.
If we miss that, if we, we needto understand that.
If the state is the highestauthority that you can aim at

(10:49):
your political party, you'reright.
We talked about this last timeyour, your ethnicity, your
sexual orientation, whatever itis if that's the highest thing
you aim at, you are going tounravel, unravel, unravel down
and cannibalize yourself becauseyou're you're defining that.
But there's something higherthan that.
Then everybody is subjected toit and I think english common
law and I'll.

(11:10):
I'll stop there because I'mgoing to go higher, harder than
that, because you made a commentwhen we started the
conversation, when I wanted totalk to you before about free
speech.
Yeah, free speech meanssomething different americans
than the british, I'm like thatmay be true, but english common
law is the grounds on which wecreated free speech and in the
uk, like it's for the westernworld.
It's like one of the best thingsever.

(11:31):
It's like the idea of englishcommon law.
That's one of the greatestthings that the british have
done.
I know we like knock on youguys as americans, but it's
fantastic that you exported that, that principle.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
But yeah, I think and I think I think people don't
know what English common law is.
It's the idea that you havecase law and precedent.
So, instead of making anindividual decision every single
time that there is a legalconundrum or legal conflict,
there's actually precedent andcase law.
That means that you can go backand have a general system of
law and justice that applies toeveryone.
So that's a really powerful,it's a really powerful export of

(12:07):
the UK, particularly england.
The uk, they can, they canclaim it, but it's the england,
right?
Yeah, that's right, and so I'dsay, yeah, that's that's
powerful.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
Um, but yeah, dude, carry on, carry on so without
that, you're going to have atwo-tier system and without that
, like basically that that thatsystem is saying like,
irregardless of who you are,you're still under this, this
umbrella of law.
So I could be a king, I couldbe this person, I could be that
person, unless it really reallyspecific exceptions, like we're

(12:36):
all kind of under this umbrellaof ruling, which again would
come kind of back under undergod.
But right now we're what we'reseeing in the world.
Is this return to this ideareally driven by a new form of
postmodernism, really driven bya form of Marxism?
We can build another Tower ofBabel.
We can build a utopia.
The reason why it's not working, guys, is because we weren't

(12:59):
the ones doing it.
And there's a quote from OrwellI think it's Orwell, but he said
every generation supposesthemselves wiser than the one
that came before them and moremorally virtuous than the one
that comes after them.
And when we have people whothink that they're morally
superior, they will dehumanizeanybody else who is not them in

(13:21):
the group.
And there's no logical kind ofdialogue.
That can happen.
Everything.
There's no actual debate,there's no actual discourse.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
Everything breaks down if I position myself that
I'm morally higher than youbased on my group, then I've
dehumanized you and there's noway for us to like find any
justice, because we talked aboutjustice last time because
what's really interesting isthat because the church I work
in obviously our studentcommunity we've got 400 students

(13:49):
, all Gen Z, between 18 and 24,whatever they are, and one of
the things that we say to themall the time is is that you will
have more knowledge about morethings than any generation
before, but you will not havethe same wisdom or the same
morality.
And one of the things that wetry and teach our young ones is

(14:12):
hey, knowledge is not wisdom.
Knowledge really is the takingapart of things.
It is the deconstruction, whichis actually quite an important
process.
I'm not decrying that in theslightest.
You deconstruct ideas to findtheir origin, shape the
foundations and see how goodthey are.
But the difference betweenknowledge and wisdom is that,
while knowledge takes down tearsapart and deconstructs, wisdom

(14:33):
seeks to build something in theapplication of the knowledge
that we've learned.
And the reality is that you canonly be wise if you've applied
knowledge over time throughtrial and error, and or you've
experienced suffering in yourlife.
And so what's happening is isthat a trial and suffering leads
to wisdom, like you just can'tget away from it because you've
done something crazy orsomeone's done something crazy

(14:54):
to you and you're wiser than youwere before.
We've never experienced anylife.
It's really hard to be wise.
You can have loads of knowledge, but it's really hard to be
wise.
And this idea of moralvirtuosity is really important
because every every me, usincluded right like we we're 18
every generation.
Screw you.
Guys.
Like we're amazing, like weknow way more than you, I'm
going to show you how bad thestuff you built is.

(15:15):
And we have this generationalthing every generation, where
it's like.
The young ones are likedeconstruct, deconstruct,
deconstruct.
And the wise ones, the eldergeneration, the elder statesmen,
they have to find a way ofbeing, of protecting what
they've built.
That is good, but allowing theexpression of a deconstructed
generation to learn how to applyknowledge through trial and
error and suffering, in a waythat means that they grow up.

(15:37):
As opposed to that, they justget to do whatever they want to
do.
And that's basic parenting,right?
That's basic parenting, whereyou give boundaries and you have
freedom within boundaries,absolute freedom.
And the issue with our currentyoung ones we're generation z,
sorry, generation z um.
Those, those ones they havebeen given absolute autonomy to
decide whatever is right andwrong in their moment, because

(15:57):
they are given freedom waybeyond their ability to steward
and because they haven't hadsuffering or pain or trial and
error, even though they thinkthey have right.
And this is such a massiveconversation.
The young generation is like wewe suffer.
It's like you don't, like.
You don't know what sufferingis, like you just don't get it.
And what third world problemsand western problems are not an
issue like this is a this.
This only exists in the westernworld, this conversation,

(16:19):
because everywhere else you'rejust trying to survive, like
live or whatever it is.
And we have to get our headsaround this, especially in our
age bracket, because we arestraddling these two positions
right.
So I'm now straddling theposition of oh, I really want to
basically kill everything thatcame before me because I want to
do something better andactually realize oh, actually,

(16:42):
there's something pretty decentabout what's happened before.
How do I cohabit this spacebetween being 20 and being 60,
in my 40s?
And this is a reallyinteresting dynamic.
And what you're talking aboutthere in terms of how we think
about the generations that arecoming, is that they're always

(17:02):
going to deconstruct, but ourjob is to help them construct
through trial and error andsuffering of their own, in order
that we can build somethingtogether.
That's a really tricky thing todo, but that's just what I
wanted to add into thatconversation.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
Yeah, well, I, I.
There's a family who, who livesin our town.
They came there, the mom'sCongolese and the kids are from,
born in South Africa.
Uh, they're like the daughter's16 years old and we just, we
just will laugh anytime we gettogether.
I just laugh hysterically withher because I'll just go through
and have her translating for mewhat's riz, what's?

(17:35):
And I remember like being beinga kid and like middle school,
high school, and we had our ownslang, and like the slang that
we had back then was so, soprovocative and offensive.
Like now it just doesn't makesense.
It's like gobbledygook.
The slang that we had was wewere adopting words that were
like like we've called peopledouchebags all the time.
That was the, that was theinsult you know, uh.

(17:58):
But it's like clear, like whenyou say it, like even for
someone who's my mom's age, shewould get it.
She, she's like that's so gross.
Why would you guys ever saythat?
Anyways, their slang.
I don't get it at all, and soI'm finding myself in this
position.
Music that I listen to is nowclassic in terms of where it
falls historically.

(18:19):
She's laughing.
She doesn't know any of theartists that I know.
She doesn't know anything thatI was into as a kid.
It's like over over her headand then so I just like bombard
her.
You know, sometimes onInstagram of like you know Gen Z
, like slang, there's like theseguys who are millennials, but
they'll dress up and act likethey're Gen Z and then like
break up with each other and I'mlike vaguely following in the

(18:41):
conversation but I don'tunderstand actually what they're
saying um yeah and I think, andI think that's really, I think
that's really.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
And then that goes back to the to the idea that
we're talking about, which isthis echo chamber thing.
Because because that generationis consistently on social media
, what they feed in normally isbracketed around their
generation and they get fed backthe same thing from their
generation.
It's why multi-generationalexpressions of community are so
important, which is why thechurch is actually so important,

(19:09):
because basically you get a 21year old who's like I can rule
the world.
Then they come up against meand I'm pretty forceful and
pretty forthright and I can, I'mgood on the spot.
They can ask me questions.
I've normally thought about itand I've got an answer, or
whatever it is.
It's really good for them.
It's good for me to bechallenged, but it's good for
them to be like, hey, you're not, you're actually not as good as
you think you are.
You know like I, I'm not agenius, but I have.

(19:30):
But the questions that you'reasking me, one day you might ask
a question I haven't thought ofone day, but not right now.
And actually you need to beaware that people before you
have actually grown up andthought about these things in a
way that you have not evenconsidered yet, even though you
think you are the DBs, as theysay.
Well, not as they say, as we inour generation say.
But I think there's somethingreally powerful about that

(19:52):
multi-generational communitybecause you can't get away with
it.
It's the whole iron sharpensiron thing.
You can't get away with justbeing in an echo chamber that
doesn't exist and then you haveto choose, choose, okay.
There's lots of people in thiscommunity that don't agree with
what I have to say.
They also don't let me justpreach on a sunday.
I can't believe they don't letme get a microphone and preach
on a sunday about the things Iwant to preach about give me the

(20:13):
mic, dude give me the mic,that's right, yeah, 100.
And then you get to our age.
You're like take the mic away,take the mic away.
I'm.
I'm absolutely over this thing.
I'm only doing it because Ihave to, because you guys are
all nutters.
Do you know what I mean?
I think this is this is reallyinteresting dynamic and that
multi-generational thing isreally important.
But in terms of that echochamber thing, it's so

(20:37):
foundational to understand thatto get out of that requires a
huge sacrifice because you haveto start taking on board that
other people think differentlyand that is very, very hard in
our culture.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
It's one thing I'm kind of desperate for, honestly,
is to understand other people.
Like right now we talked aboutthe election briefly, but I
desperately want to get peopleon the podcast who, like, have
like polar opposite viewpointson me and just like, but I want
to work from the departure point, like, hey, I just want to
understand you as a human being.
I want to understand, like inyour mind, the you as a human
being.
I want to understand, like inyour mind, the big picture and

(21:05):
for the greater good, how doesthis all kind of flush out and
how does that work If we canhave like an adult logical
conversation, if we're going todescend into moral superiority,
if we're going to descend intolike, just emotional outbursts
and like that, I just don't havethe capacity for that.
But, like, if we're going to beobjective, like I genuinely

(21:25):
want to know because you didn'tarrive there by act, it wasn't
just like I'm choosing to bewrong, like, from my perspective
, if I don't agree with them,it's not like someone's actively
saying I woke up today and Ifeel like I want to be wrong,
and then there's a ballot listof like wrong, wrong, wrong,
wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.
You know, no one does thatthere's a reasoning behind what
they're doing, be it it might bea false departure point, and

(21:47):
they have to talk about that andthey have to have somebody
actually think out loud withthem.
Not trying to punish them, nottrying to dunk on them, not
trying to publicly humiliatethem, but like let's work out
your idea, follow the thoughtthrough.
Do you still have the idea?
Does it still hold on?
Sometimes you're trying tobreak emotional things or belief

(22:07):
systems.
When you're trying to workthings out like that, that
you're just not really going to,but just having like real
conversations.
There was a debate between JDVance and Tim Waltz during this
last election cycle and all thisstuff came forward like as if
they were like making their eyesand they were lovers or
whatever, because they weren'tdunking on each other, because
they really weren't like beingdisrespectful to each other.

(22:28):
And we've kind of gotten awayfrom that uh to this point where
if we get like more and moreand more and more radicalized
into our groups and moremilitant and our tribalism for
groups, it's going to descend ina place that we don't want.
That's why I was referencingspecifically at the end of the
1800s.
We were at like the height dude, like we'd moved from whale oil
into like oil out of the ground, like fossil fuel.

(22:50):
There's all these advancementsthat we were like walking into
and people like we're going to,we don't need God, we don't need
anything Huxley and Darwin, andthe scientific revolution,
evolution and the survival ofthe fittest.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
You had the Edwardian era in the UK in the 1920s,
which was the greatest wealththat has ever experienced by a
very few people.
In the end, actually, to befair, the upper classes and the
poor were still poor, but butthere was this real sense of we.
We've made it.
This is this, is it?
Historically?
We are at the pinnacle of ourexpression and what's really
interesting about that aspect ofit is that you because I know
that you mentioned, like theweimar republic, you mentioned

(23:24):
um, the the wall street crash1929.
Um, you mentioned, I mean,hitler became chancellor.
Germany, 1933, chris, and thatwas 1936.
1939, world war ii broke outand then we didn't even talk
about lenin and stalin and wedidn't yeah, it's, it's.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
It's never that and you know that's never really
addressed that much, but you'relooking at a hundred.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
I think a hundred million people in total were
killed with the greatest killingmachine of the 20th century.
And and it's, and it's just,it's just this incredible um
example of what happens ifhumanity consistently believes
that we should eat from the treeof knowledge of good and evil
and define our own morality andand, like you said at the

(24:03):
beginning, not come under atranscendent morality, that
somehow we are the ones todetermine and dictate what is
true, what is real and what isgood.
And I mean, and if you want anylessons from the 20th century,
just look at, even look atMussolini in Italy, like, look
at some of the stuff thathappened.
Yeah, absolutely, I'm saying itdoesn't matter about your

(24:24):
political view, left or right,it's human beings.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Every ethnic group, every country, like you can go
to any hemisphere, any latitude,any ethnic group where they
applied these ideas, it endedvery badly.
And so now when universitiesare saying, hey, Marxism was a
super good idea, it's just thewrong people were trying to do
it and they got corrupted, theygot power and it's like, well,
guess what that's gonna happenunilaterally anywhere.

(24:51):
And when christians they sayyou're just being old-fashioned,
you're being dumb, you're beingsuperstitious, like rightfully
so.
When you look at the russianrevolution and you look at what
happened to orthodox christians,their churches got changed into
brothels, movie theaters, bars,and they were executed and
ostracized.
There's still people who arealive today, who live in the
middle of the siberianwilderness because their

(25:13):
ancestors were christians andthey had to go live and
literally, like john the baptist, eat locusts and honey and lose
their.
They lost their minds.
They're all like crazy now, butlike that.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
That's why people have some hesitancy around those
ideas and implementing thoseideas on wide scale in a
political absolutely and and andlike the japanese, the japanese
in terms of the prisoner of warcamps, I mean the stuff they
did to people.
I mean it's like it's unrealwhat they did.
I had a, my granddad, um, on mymom's side, he had a friend
that was in a japanese pow campand a dude like the guy, he,

(25:46):
like he, he ended up um, runningaround naked, um in the town
where we lived, shouting thejaps are going to get me, the
japs are going to get me,because he just completely lost
his mind and and so what I'msaying is like because because
and we think that japanese is acapitalist economy, they're
great people and of course theyare.
But every group, everyethnicity, every culture, if it

(26:13):
focuses itself around itself,becomes one of the most
self-consuming things you can do, and it normally means that
anybody that doesn't have themajority opinion or anybody who
is in a situation where they areseen as a threat either to
ruling authorities or just thegeneral rule and order of
society, they're targeted as theproblem, when actually the
problem is deeply human.

(26:33):
I, I just think you, you can'tget away from the 20th century,
you just can't do it.
I mean, my first degree ishistory of philosophy and you
look at the philosophicalconnotations of, and then so if
you look at so, so if you gofrom kant to hegel, to marx, to
freud, to foucault, to derridaand to sartre and all these guys
, and I mean you you shift fromgerman to french and when it
gets french it gets really,really bad, just like well, when

(26:56):
it gets french it gets prettycrazy and there are lots of the
pedophiles and wanting the edgeof consent to be reduced and all
the rest of it.
But you track thatphilosophical journey and then
you also track the historicaljourney.
Dude, like we, we are living inthe 2024-25 and we are living
in the inheritance of fukai,we're living in the inheritance

(27:17):
of existential post-modernism.
And and what happens is, isthat we, we think that just
around the corner, we're nearlythere, just around the corner.
If we can just find the perfectexpression of humanity, if only
we could be the person that wefeel like, even though our
biological genders or bodies,whatever you want to sex is,

(27:38):
don't reflect it.
If only we can be a jewish fishand identify how we want, like,
if only we can be that, thenwe'd have utopia.
But the thing the thing is isthat and this is the christian
ethic is that the answer is notforward, the answer is backwards
not backwards, but the answeris before.
The answer is two thousandyears ago, and so actually, what
we're trying to do is we'retrying to go forward from a
point of the cross, as opposedto go forward from the point of

(28:01):
our individual lives and goingall the way back to the echo
chamber.
If you believe that your lifeis your story and that's the
story you should be promoting,you will just do your best to
have a story that makes sense toyou, so no one else can get in.
That's why anxiety is up,isolation is up, depression is
up, suicide is up, because noone can live in a story that

(28:22):
they control.
They must be part of somethingfar greater, and echo chambers
are the greatest killer at themoment of young women between
between 10 and 13.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Yeah, suicide, I mean suicide rates of younger people
just have gone up like reallysince the pandemic.
But like you go before thatwith the, with social media,
with uh, pre-pubescent,pubescent girls, like it's such
a.
It's a crazy thing because theyall have body dysmorphia in
some degree or another.
Because they're not, they'rechanging, like their breasts are
coming in, their hips arewidening, they're.

(28:50):
You know they look.
But they're still not quite awoman and, like I've heard you
know girls on on social media.
One girl she transitioned to bea boy because she said I never
thought I was actually a boy,but she just looked at Kim
Kardashian and she knew that shewouldn't just looked at her own
body.
It's like I'll never have thatkind of figure.
So I can't even I can't besexually attractive to men.

(29:12):
So anybody listening, listen, Idon't want to send you down a
weird rabbit hole, but beautystandards are always changing.
When I was in school, girlsused to pluck their eyebrows out
until they were like razor thinand like the way that they wore
makeup, everything.
And then there came this phasewhere girls have big boxy
eyebrows you british peoplereally love that look where the

(29:35):
women will just have these hugeboxy eyebrows, don't throw me in
that hole, bro.

Speaker 2 (29:41):
I'm just saying like it's.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
It's something I've seen, like you know, in that
essex show.
Whatever my wife will like,sometimes like, show me some
reality stuff.
But I'm just saying anybodylistening to this the standards
that are held right now, by thetime that you actually like,
when you're pre-pubescent,you're, you're, you're going
into puberty, by the time thatyou hit your 20s and your 30s,
beauty standards will havecompletely shifted in the ideal

(30:03):
that you're trying to get to andI can't tell you of how many, I
don't know a better way to sayit.
But people who I grew up withhad ugly duckling syndrome,
where they just you, just you'regrowing in your body.
Your body's always changing,but you are not going to look
the same as you're 16 when yougo in your 20s and your 30s.
And I've saw girls who are likeand then what then, bro, why do
you have kids?
Yeah, yeah, so, but anyways, mypoint there is.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
It's just that I, just, I just want to say one
thing real quick someone willalways find you sexually
attractive and someone willalways, always find you
attractive, um, and and justbecause you don't find yourself
attractive, someone else won't.
And and there's somethingreally important to know um that
in the, in the process offinding a mate, or like a

(30:48):
partner or a spouse, or whateveryou want to call it, um,
someone is always going tochoose you, and and I think that
the lie is is that they'll onlychoose you if you look or sound
or feel a certain way, and I'mlike it's just such a lie.
It's an absolute lie anyway,karen yeah, well, that was.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
That's pretty much the gist of it is that with the,
the line is always moving onbeauty standards.
If you look at fashion as welllike we've been we've been alive
, we've been doing this humanexperience thing for a long time
look back at the clothes thatthey used to wear in the middle
ages, look at how like it justalways changes, and one of the
trends that I see is ideas.
Just now, people are gettinglazy and they just get recycled,

(31:31):
so they'll, for example,converse like black.
Converse will be in for aperiod of time.
Then they'll move to like theclassic adidas.
Then they'll move to like ablack, uh, nike with a white
swish and a soul.
Then they move to van andthey'll just recycle these.
The fashion trends now, uh, arewhat was in style when I was in
middle school.
So I was in middle school bigbaggy jeans girls are wearing

(31:53):
like crop tops, like a lot ofthis stuff just gets recycled,
so you're just the.
The fashion industry andmarketing is centered around
creating a sense of lack inpeople, a sense of I need that,
I need that, and if they canhave that, string and carrot.
That's why you're alwayspursuing that versus just having
contentment and thankfulness,not wanting things but not

(32:18):
living out of like a pursuit ofmaterialism, a pursuit of
people's opinions.
We talked about this last time.
I don't actually havepermission, or it's none of my
business what Tim thinks aboutme.
It's none of my business whatsomeone thinks about me per se,
but that's what media and socialmedia.
Does you want to quantify?
What's my reach?

(32:38):
How many followers do I have?
And I seem like a joke.
It was just like are youfriends with your mom and
Instagram?
No, dude, she only has likefive followers.
No way.
It is like like you'reforegoing like real connection,
real intimacy, relationshipswith a digital front.
Uh, and that's like trying tocontrol how you see yourself and
how you think, to maximize theamount of money it can extract

(33:01):
from you and your parents.
Social media is trying tomaximize.
It's capturing your attention.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
I work in social media marketing just to give
people context, like literallythat's all we think about is
like how do I stop you fromscrolling on your phone and
convince Dude, you're theproblem, man.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
You're the issue.
I'm the guy that I'm thewhistleblower of, like hey, this
is what these platforms aretrying to do.
It's people are trying to makemoney, it's lifting people, it's
out of poverty and things likethat, but it's also, like you
know, making people mentally ill.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
So just be aware there's some things I could say
about cultures in Europe makingpeople mentally ill in America.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
but I'll stop there.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
So yeah and dude, like I'm on Instagram because
like I, because I, so my view onsocial media is pretty extreme,
I think.
I think it's probably demonic.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
Right, so.
So so I think, like for me yourview is demonic.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
Or you think social media, no, no, the social media
in itself, but it's like it'sthe, the, the, the.
The big thing is is the.
So I get messages all the timeon my Instagram saying your reel
is not recommendable becauseit's more than 90 seconds.
So what I use my social mediafor I don't run my social media,
someone runs it for me but whatwe use it for is to try and
actually input thought intopeople's minds.

(34:17):
So you can't get a good thoughtover in less than 90 seconds.
So all of my stuff on Instagramisn't short enough for most
people who scroll through.
But I don't care.
I'm like the people that wantto see it will stop and watch it
.
That is what it is.
But the whole drive of thesocial media world, even on
Instagram or whatever it is, isthey want it to be short, snappy

(34:41):
and engaging, but basicallymeaningless.
Yes, or basically notchallenging, unless, like you
put like a three, three secondthing in there that you hate
kamala harris and then all thesepeople hate you and all the
rest of it.
I'm saying like there's that.
So so for me, um, there's aconstant drive from my even my
social media account saying justso you know you're not going to

(35:02):
get as many followers, you'renot going to get as many views,
you're not going to get a bit ofme like, because you are trying
to tell someone somethingsomething more than 90 seconds
and I'm like that is a crazystate to be in.
And the only place that doesthat really is stuff like
youtube, where you can actuallyhave long-form conversation, all
like these podcast things thatwe're doing and it's just this
really interesting story whereyou are being invited to in
social media, not just to sellyour soul to an echo chamber,

(35:26):
but you're also being invited ata foundational level to stop
thinking, to stop having longform thought, to have glimpses
of someone's view that has takenyears to mould, and take that
as your own thing andregurgitate it when you feel
like it's necessary.
We are creating stupid people.
That's what we're're doing.

(35:46):
We're creating people who donot think for themselves and it
is drowsy, batty mate, theamount of people.
So this girl came up to me.
She was like she just said allthis stuff and I was like oh,
what, where did you hear thatfrom?
She was like tick tock.
I was like okay, so, so who ontick tock is saying that and
she's like I don't really know.
Them know like they have thisfollowing and like I just follow
them on TikTok.
I'm like so what point did youstart thinking about this issue

(36:07):
for yourself?
She was like well, like, justbecause I just said it.
That's why I'm I'm just sayingwhat I know to be true.
I'm like you don't know.
It's true.
Yeah, did you see?
It's just a just a reallybizarre.
We live in a bizarre world.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, and just to give context, like the way, so
like influencers, the way thatthey become influencers, like
young kids, understanding isthey're monetizing your
attention and so they convinceyou to buy things, they convince
you to go and subscribe tothings and when you do that,
they get a portion of it.
So it's actually a hugeconflict of interest.

(36:42):
If I benefit directly from youmaking a decision in the
direction I want, and probablythe clearest, like this, is a
not to go off track and not to.
I don't want to like open atotal can of worms, but the
Harris campaign paid $20 millionin total to Eminem, beyonce,
cardi B and that stallion chick.

(37:03):
They paid $20 million for themto come and say, hey, vote for
this person.
Elon Musk is the richest dudein the world.
How much do you think Trumppaid him?
Nothing, because he was sowinginto his campaign.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
So I'm not trying to make a political statement there
.
He gave a million pounds,didn't he a day, to someone that
came out to vote for Trump.
Is that true or not?
Say what he gave like a milliondollars.
He got taken to court, didn'the?
The judge kicked it out becausehe was giving a million dollars
away daily or weekly to Trumpsupporters Trump voters.

(37:40):
Elon Musk.
I don't think anything likethat Trump voters.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
Elon Musk, I don't think anything like that.
I think one of the things thatthey did in the election that he
was talking about, for example,amish people.
They can't really go to thevoting places sometimes because
they live out in the middle ofthe country and they only do
horses.
But in their religion, ifsomebody comes with a bus and
gets them, they're allowed.
So the Republican Party said,hey, we'll come and get you Vote

(38:05):
however you want, but obviouslyif the Republicans come and get
you, they're kind of bankingthat you're going to align with
their values.
I think, like stuff like that.
But my only point there not tobe like super political about it
, but it was just that if peopleare getting paid to tell you
what to buy and they make moneyfrom you making that decision,

(38:31):
they don't have your bestinterest at heart.
And if they're trying to be inlike a group towing a narrative
and you can't belong in thatgroup unless you tow that
narrative or question withinthat narrative, that's cult
behavior.
Like and I, anybody who's young, go look at cults, go go
research YouTube.
Like, look at cults and lookhow they function.
There's sex cults, death cultsthat's pretty much it.
Like the sex cults they'llmonopolize your money.
There's a figure things getwonky there.

(38:52):
Death cults they don't lastvery long because everybody
commits suicide or they killtheir people.
Okay, but that's it Like.
That's what they devolve into.
And all of them have the samepromise we're going to make the
world a better place.
This is about transcendence, tim.
This is about inner peace, tim.
Come set in the fire by us.
Drink this Kool-Aid Now.

(39:12):
How do you feel?
It always starts out Peoplegive 25, 30 years to their lives
into some of these cults.
It's always fascinated me.
They're like indoctrinated.
They lives into some of thesecults.
It's always fascinated me.
They're like indoctrinated,they're in it and they were like

(39:33):
like in tears.
Even after they leave the cultthey're in tears thinking about
how good it was in the beginning, in tears, recounting like he
was.
Such a tim was such a powerfulspeaker.
I remember I remember uh, one,one guy, he, he, uh, he spent
six hours every morning.
He got fresh fruit and he cutthe fruit in a design on a plate
and it made it like art and hegave it to the guy to eat this
fruit plate every day.

(39:54):
And then, years after hefinally left that cult, somebody
who worked in the room withthat guy said yeah, he just took
all the fruit that you did andhe dumped it into a juicer and
blended it and drank it.
Yeah, I'm sorry to laugh at theguy's expense, but it's like
utter dedication to somebody whodoesn't care about you and

(40:18):
that's like.
My point is like they're notgoing to show up to your dad's
funeral.
They don't care about you.
You shouldn't really care whatinfluencers say.
You shouldn't take theirpolitical advice.
Have a brain between your ears.
Uh, is what I'm saying, and Iwas going to ask you the
question sure and I, I was gonnaask you the question of like,
hey, tim, how do we like breakdown like the mirror moral

(40:38):
superiority thing?
And then immediately I'mthinking, like asking you.
I'm thinking about, uh, jesussaying like, if you think, if I
think tim has a speck in hiseyeball, then I'm supposed to
like If I think Tim has a speckin his eyeball, then I'm
supposed to stick my finger inhis eye and wiggle it around and
get it out.
I have to look first at theboard that's inside of my face.
There's a big piece of lumberthat's lodged inside of my own

(41:08):
eye socket that I need to pullout first.
I want to hear your thoughts,because I'm kind of firing away
at you pull out first.
But yeah, I want to, I want tohear your thoughts because I'm
kind of firing away at you.
I drank some coffee, but I wantto hear kind of your thoughts on
.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Uh, yeah, a break breaking out of echo chambers
and like more superiority well,it's, it's it's the true purpose
of um, it's the true purpose ofself-awareness, it's the true
purpose of internally lookinginternally, looking inward.
Because in our culture, lookinginward um is how can I justify
my own life, how can I justifyhow I feel, how can I justify

(41:38):
what I want to do, how can Ijustify my own personal ambition
, right?
But jesus actually says lookinginward is not about you.
Looking inward is looking atyourself and going.
How can, in peterson's language, how can I have possibly been
the auschwitz guard?
How is it that I?
Um have got these crazythoughts in my head about this
person that I?

(41:59):
I don't like and I want to killthem?
Or whatever extreme example youwant to think about?
True, um, true inward thought,true self and introspection, um,
self-inspection.
Introspection is about how youare not the greatest thing ever,
but where you need to improveyour life.
And so this is absolutely Imean that whole.

(42:20):
Don't look at the speck in yourbrother's eye until you've
taken the planko.
It was such a powerful parablebecause it applies across
generations, across culture,across everything else, because
we spend so much of our timesaying let's try and remove this
thing that is a blemish on myfriend's face, while not knowing
that you're smashing them inthat same face with a massive

(42:42):
plank.
That's in your face, becauseyou can't get close to someone
unless you get close to them andall of a sudden, like your
whole dysfunction smashes themin the face and you destroy the
relationship them.
And all of a sudden, like your,your whole dysfunction smashes
them in the face and you destroythe relationship.
That's, it's a powerfulnarrative, and but what's even,
what's even crazier about that,about what jesus says and the
christian ethic, is thatself-inspection, introspection,

(43:02):
is not even simply about um,having this sense of your
unworthiness and your need for asaviour.
It's also about takingresponsibility to get yourself
better, taking responsibility toactually pursue a saviour,
pursue healing for yourselfbefore you even think about

(43:27):
someone else's healing.
And what's crazy about that isthat, if you and I mean Jesus
obviously tells multipleparables, but on the Sermon on
the Mount, jesus talks aboutthis idea of forgiveness, right.
So he talks about turn the othercheek.
He talks about if someone takesyour coat, give them your tunic
as well, and he talks about gothe extra mile, right.
And so I don't want to borepeople if they know the

(43:49):
background to this narrative,but turn the other cheek.
Jesus says if someone slaps youon the right side of your face,
turn the other cheek.
And that's because it's thegreatest insult to be slapped by
the back of the hand.
So what Jesus is saying thereif someone insults you, in
Jewish tradition, by slappingyou with the back of their hand,
resist that person, but don'tdo it in the same way.

(44:12):
So don't do it in the same waythat they came at you by
slapping them back or hittingthem back.
Turn the other cheek and say ifyou're going to insult me, hit
me properly, with respect.
That's what that means.
And then the Romans would askthe people that they had
dominion over so in this casethe Jews to carry they were
legally allowed to get anybodyat any point to carry their bag,

(44:33):
their helmet.
The chosen does a great job ofthis.
Actually, when in the chosenthey give this example, and
Jesus actually in the chosen andresists the oppression of the,
of the, of the people in power,by saying they're saying that's
enough now, and then they'relike, no, it's not, we'll take
it an extra mile.
Why?
Because you're resisting evil.
They're saying that's enoughnow, and then they're like, no,
it's not, we'll take it an extramile.
Why?
Because you're resisting evil,but you're just not resisting it

(44:54):
in the same way.
Because your internalinspection is this could be me
doing this to someone else.
And so what am I going to do?
To resist in the same spirit oram I going to go against it, a
different spirit?
And then the whole thing aboutif someone takes your cloak,
give your tunic.
It actually refers to poorpeople and often and when poor
people couldn't pay their duesto their or slaves can pay their
dues to their masters and theywould take things away from them

(45:15):
, like their cloak or whateverintended to court as a result.
And he's basically saying tothe slaves, to the one who is in
slavery, if, or in servitude,if, if your master takes your
cloak, give them your tunic aswell, which basically means it's
been naked in the court.
Expose the evil for what itreally is, but don't resist it
in the same way as what is beingdone to you.

(45:36):
Expose evil and resist itdifferently.
And what's so foundational aboutthis is that the idea is is
that it is the opportunity andthis is the opportunity to break
the cycle of injustice is laidat the feet of the one who has
suffered the injustice.

(45:56):
That's crazy, right?
So jesus is saying the way thatyou break injustice, the way
that you break um cycles ofinjustice over and over again,
is not by attacking the peoplewho are oppressing you.
It's not by trying to maketrying to make your point using
the same tactics as they did.
What you do is you expose theevil for what it really is and

(46:17):
you go in exactly the oppositespirit, and that brings shame on
your oppressor, which meansthat they are publicly shown to
have actually oppressed you.
And that is the way that youbreak injustice.
And what's interesting aboutthat in relation to the speck
and the plank, is that if you'reinternally inspecting yourself
for your prejudice, if you'reinternally inspecting yourself

(46:37):
to see where you need to improve, you're internally inspecting
yourself to figure out how is itthat I have this element of my
life that isn't put together,then what you're more likely to
do is when you're facing justice, you're like well gosh, I am
just the same as everybody else.
I have anger, I have hurt, I'veoppressed people, whatever it

(46:57):
is, and actually Jesus says thatnow I have the opportunity to
break the cycle of oppression,even though I'm the one that's
being oppressed.
That is the most crazy thingthat you can ever think of in
our culture.
Am I making sense like, likeit's the craziest thing that you
can think of that if you arethe one to have suffered at the

(47:18):
hands of another, you get to bethe one who gets the glory for
breaking the cycle of injustice,as opposed to continuing it?
That's a crazy invitation that,if we take it and we remove the
plank from our own eye, that we, that we love despite the
things that happen to us, that'swhat changed the world.
That's what meant that the earlychurch in the first 300 years
grew, with people dying for aperson they never met.

(47:40):
People died at the hands of thegladiators or in the lions or
wherever it was, for a mancalled Jesus that they'd never
met.
Why?
Because they believed in theteaching that he shared, which
is hey, listen, number one tolive is Christ and die is gain.
Also, number two you know whatYou're entitled to death and

(48:01):
nothing but death.
And so, actually, if you have agood death in the name of Jesus
Christ, it basically means thatyou are living a life of glory
where you get to go into theplace of the heavenlies and be
one with God, be at one withChrist, and the idea of the
introspection in our cultureisn't to make ourselves better,

(48:21):
it's to justify our position.
Introspection is not that.
Introspection is trying tofigure out how on earth do I get
better and love someone?
And how?
Is it not about me?
That's my long ramble aboutthat that's super good, dude.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
I was like, well, maybe like go back into when you
said, when you're talking about, uh, you know, put a coal on
top of someone's head, carry theromans pack, turn the other,
cheek those pieces.
So you were saying, like it'sbasically like you're looking
into the face of evil oroppression being done to you and
you're creating the response,but also, like you said, like

(48:57):
you're not, you're not answeringit with with the same spirit
that was done to you.
So maybe like, practically like, walk through that a little bit
.
So we're talking about breakingout of echo chambers and more
superiority and, of course, likethese power narratives that we
get fed, that through Marxism of, like you know, if you belong
to this group, like you're,you're wrong, it's systemically
bad.
If you belong to this group,you're systemically a victim.

(49:17):
We need to help you like, somaybe like, yeah, close the gap
there with that, yeah, I mean,maybe maybe this, maybe this
example will help.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
I mean, if it doesn't , we can do another one.
But, and I, people regularlycome to me.
So, so I'm I, I I'm pastor in achurch, um, and people come to
me regularly, um, and and theyand they often are like you you
say that we can ask youquestions.
I'm like, yeah, of course, like, if I can't justify why I
believe what I believe, what amI doing?
Leading anyone?
That's ridiculous, um, and andand what's really interesting is

(49:49):
that their narrative is thatleaders hurt you and you must do
what they say in order that youdon't get crushed.
This is, this is honestly soprevalent in our mindsets,
particularly in my experience ofof black congregational church
members.
This is, this is there in theUK.
This is their experience ofleaders.
Know, in the uk, this is theirexperience of leaders.

(50:12):
And and so what?
Um, I had this conversationyesterday actually with a girl
and she said um, basically, Ibelieved that you were probably
going to try and overcome me.
You were going to try andoppress me.
You were going to try and makeme believe what you believe, and
the reason why I came to yourschool was because you said that
I could ask questions and everyweek this girl comes and asks

(50:32):
questions.
In fact, the first week sheasked me, um, because we're
talking about um, the, thesymbolism of water through the
bible.
Um, and I was like there's nowater, there's no sea in heaven,
like the sea is glass, and thenit goes.
And then she and she got up onstage because we asked them, we
got a little stage, we askedthem to feedback, because
otherwise it's very boringhearing my voice the whole time
and and and she said Ifact-checked you and I'm like

(50:54):
how amazing is that that sheactually got up and didn't just
take what I said and wasn'toffended by what I said, but
because she didn't knowsomething, she looked it up on
google or wherever she looked itup.
And then she was like actuallyyou're right.
And I'm like, of course I'mright.
No, I didn't say that.
Um, it's like it's that.
But there's this real sense inwhich actually you can come with
a fence to a, a leader to thepage freaking patriarchy.

(51:17):
You can come with a fence to adifferent group.
You can come with a fence to arepresentation of oppression and
you can come in this samespirit of the oppression that
they represent or the impression, the oppression that they are,
and you will continue that cycleof injustice.
So this girl, she wanted tocome and confront me because, um
, she felt that essentially Iwas never going to listen to her

(51:39):
point of view because I was aleader and she was a minion.
And we got to talk about it andwe got to have a conversation
and actually I and what's reallyinteresting is is that she's
completely and utterly changedover the last eight weeks.
We do the school transformationthing and we completely changed
over the last eight weeksbecause she has found that to

(51:59):
face up to the fear because it'svery vulnerable coming to
someone who you think might hurtyou very vulnerable, but it's
the only way to live your life,it's the only way to overcome it
, but it's the only way to liveyour life, it's the only way to
overcome it.
And so to confront the fear, toface on the fear of what might
happen, actually brings thegreatest freedom.

(52:20):
Whereas if you consistentlystand back and you create this
narrative of distance as opposedto the reconciliation, if you
have the ministry ofreconciliation, you continue to
create distance.
What happens is you createpolarization.
And so, in that very smallexample between leader and
follower.
In whatever context you'rethinking about, you can see that
if the follower believes thatthey're going to get oppressed

(52:42):
and the leader believes thatthey're the only one, that could
be right.
There is an ever increasingdivision and ever increasing
polarization of relationship.
But if someone comes to you witha like hey, I need to ask this
question and like honestly, dude, I can't express to you how
many people come to me cryingbecause they, because they think
that I'm going to like, batterthem, like they I've I've
particularly young women come tome to ask a question because

(53:04):
they're like they've, just, ittakes all of their courage, all
of it, their courage to come upto me and ask me hey, like, what
did you mean by this?
Not even I disagree with you,like what did you mean by this?
And they're crying, they'relike, they're shaking as they
come up.
I mean I'm like, dude, at whatpoint in our society did we not
expose each other to differentpoints of view to get to that
stage?
And so for me, just I mean I'llkeep going and going and going.

(53:27):
I can think of a differentexample if that's not helpful,
but for me, in that example, thebreaking down of the narrative
of oppressor and oppressed, thenarrative of leader and follower
, or the patriarchy and thecontrol they have is so
foundational.
And what we teach in the schoolwe taught it last night is we
teach out of Numbers 21 quite alot.
And Numbers 21 is this, so Num,numbers 21.

(53:52):
What it talks about is thiscrazy story where the Israelites
have this amazing victory overCanaanites um, which, if you, if
you, and if you, I mean no onecares about this, but if you, if
you, as if the Jewish peoplehated the Canaanites with a
passion um, the Samaritans takethe Canaanites place as time
goes on with this polarizationof groups, right, the
Canaanitesites sacrificed to thegod Molech their children, so

(54:14):
it was detestable in the eyes ofthe Jews.
And what's really fascinatingis that after this victory, they
walk back into the wilderness.
They get to a place called Edenand the Israelites moan.
They're like, oh my gosh, we'restill in the wilderness.
Even this victory kind of getsout of it.
And it it's like you know, likeyou're most liable to attack
after you've had a victory.

(54:34):
It's like you're most liable toto have a goal scored against
you.
You can see the goal whenyou've we've just scored a goal.
Right, because your guards downwhatever, and, and, and they
moan.
They're like, at least in egypt, at least in slavery, we get
three straight meals a day andwe detest this miserable bread,
this miserable miracle breadthat every day falls from the
sky.
We have, and without it wewould die, you know so.

(54:55):
So it gets really twisted up,and and what happens is sin
enters that camp, and, and godsends snakes, and, and we know
biblically that the snake is avery important symbol for the
consequence of sin, because thelucifer falls, he becomes satan,
satan, blah, blah, blah.
So the snake in the garden isthe is the epitome of the
consequence of sin, and theconsequence of sin, um is that

(55:18):
you end up um having to dealwith being, uh, being, imperfect
.
That's the reality, and andwhat happens is is that the
snakes come, they bite the, theybite the, um bite the
Israelites and the Israelitesdie, many Israelites die, and
they go to Moses like gosh.
We sinned Like no bigrevelation there.

(55:38):
We sinned against God.
Take the snakes away.
Go to God, moses, and take thesnakes away, but God doesn't.
It's fascinating that story.
What God does is that he asksMoses to raise a snake, a bronze
snake on a pole, and when theIsraelites are bitten by the
snakes, they get healed.
And what's fascinating aboutthat is that the consequence of

(55:59):
sin and, by the way, not evenjust your sin, because not all
the Israelites would have moaned, not all one million of them
moaned or sinned against God,but because they were together
in unity the consequence wasthat everybody got the
consequence of the snakes right,and so you might live in a
situation where it's not yourissue, or your sin, or your

(56:21):
mistake or whatever that createsin you a situation where you're
bitten and poisoned.
It might be someone else, butthe solution is still the same.
The solution is behold yourhealing.
And so, instead of running awayor avoiding the pain, avoiding
the poison, avoiding the snakes,god doesn't give them that
choice.
Instead, he says you mustovercome the fear and overcome

(56:44):
the snake by beholding thebronze snake and being healed,
and that means that you are nolonger afraid, but you're the
overcomer of fear and you'rebeing healed as a result of that
.
So your healing of the poisonin your body is actually
synonymous with you overcomingfear, overcoming the oppression
that comes when we live in asinful world, either by our own

(57:07):
self, in terms of sin or bysomeone else that impacts us, by
our own self in terms of sin orby someone else that impacts us
.
And what's really interestingis that in John 3, he mirrors
this, because in John 3, justbefore he says John 3, 16, for
God to love the world, justbefore that really famous verse,
jesus says as the serpent wasraised in the wilderness by
Moses, so the Son of man will beraised up for the healing of

(57:29):
the nations.
And so what Jesus says is thisis that, just as you have looked
, this is the israelites havelooked at the snake and overcome
the fear of the devil and beinghealed from the poison the
devil brings, that theconsequence of sin brings.
We get to look to him and weget to be the person who, um,
beholds our healing.

(57:49):
It never invalidates oppression, ever it.
It never minimizes it or saysit doesn't exist.
But the solution is not tofocus on the poison or the snake
.
The solution is to focus on thehealing and then overcome what
has happened.
And I think there's something sopowerful about that narrative
where an echo chamber would giveyou the consistent story,

(58:10):
social media gives you theconsistent story that if you are
under the cosh or if you theconsistent story.
Social media gives you theconsistent story that if you are
under the cosh or if you'vebeen hurt, if you've been
maligned, if you've beenoppressed, whatever it is, then
the way that you deal with it isthat you go and in your own
strength you try and kill thatsnake.
And actually that minimizesthree things Number one, the
fact that you have a snake inyou somewhere.

(58:30):
Number two, that you actuallyneed to be healed from the
poison before you go and try andright the injustice.
And number three, that you getto be the person that breaks the
cycle of doing the same thingover and over and over again,
even though that you were theone that got hurt.
And it's such a powerful storyof Christianity that we

(58:51):
completely ignore in our currentculture.
And if we really got that, ifwe really understood that, then
we would live in a verydifferent society.
And people will say, well,you're a white middle class man.
You represent all that has beenoppressive to many groups of

(59:12):
people across many, many years.
And I'm like, maybe that's true, I'm not even I don't want to
deny that I'm like I'm arepresentative of some form of
oppression.
Of course I am, whether I amthat oppression like.
I'm not going to get into aself-justification or defense
mechanism here, but what I wouldsay is this does that matter
around the biblical truth?
And just because I'm speaking abiblical truth, does it matter

(59:35):
what my color, my skin is andwhat gender I am?
And, and the question is, isthat can we as a community of
people hear the stories of pain?
Jesus says come as you are,come with all your anger, come
with all your pain, come withall your hurt.
But the point is is when youcome to jesus, you get healed,
and people sometimes don't wantto be healed, they want to be
angry.

(59:55):
Yeah, and actually, if you cantake that, that plank of anger
out of your eye in order to goand address the injustice that
you see happening over there,then what you'll be is you'll be
a far more effective and farmore powerful conduit of
forgiveness and conduit oftransformation, culturally and
societally, than you would everbe unless you'd actually

(01:00:15):
approached your healing in thefirst place.
If hurt people hurt people,angry people make people angry,
people that feel isolated,isolate people you always
recreate of yourself, unlessyou're able to go to the king of
healing, receive healing andmove forward and, from that
place, address the injustice inthe world.
We do not understand thatprinciple and my suggestion is

(01:00:39):
that if we did which I think theearly church did in the face of
Roman persecution and Nero inthe face of all sorts of things,
and the Jewish people knew thisthe Jewish people like this is
the last thing I'm going to say.
I'm going on a long time.
The Jewish people like this isthe last thing.
I'm going on a long time.
The Judeo-Christian heroes Moseshealed a man, spent 40 years in
the wilderness, encountered theburning bush and then spent

(01:01:02):
another 40 years in thewilderness, having led the
Israelites out of slavery andthen still didn't get to see the
promised land.
So their hero is someone thatnever, ever, made it to the
promise.
So the issue is not the promise, the issue is the journey that
takes you there, and the bigthing is that we want to avoid

(01:01:23):
wilderness, avoid pain, avoid.
We want to go back to theslavery of anger, the slavery of
whatever it is.
We're desperate to go backthere because we can control it,
but Moses is the one that leadsa million moaning people
through the desert andexperiences the glory of the
Lord in the burning.
Bush experiences the cloud andthe fire, speaks to God face to

(01:01:46):
face and still doesn't make it.
Why is he a hero?
Because he saw the wildernessas a chance to encounter glory,
not as a chance to get justicedone on his behalf, and there
was something so powerful aboutthe ancient Judeo-Christian
ethic that we've completely lostin our society today.
I have no idea if that answeredany of your questions, but
that's what I think.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Well, like when you went I mean the whole thing was
good At first I was like where'sthe tie down coming?
And when you hit those likethree points, and then
everything you just said fromthose three points now is like
fantastic tie down, like anybodylistening to that, like that's
you.
You'd pay like $15 to go read abook in some bookshop and and
you're not going to get that,that that much gold.
So like for like unpacking it,I guess, like I had, so like I

(01:02:31):
want you for like unpacking it,I guess, like I had, I wanted to
tie it down to like the thingsthat we got into before we can
do that.
But one thing that did come upin my mind that I just want to
kind of pick your brain out,cause you kind of said when you
laid out those three things, andbefore you go and try to
address it, you have to likeseek healing for yourself.
This is kind of like I don'tknow how you'll think about this
, but like, like whenever you'regoing to go take communion, the
Eucharist, whatever your, yourkind of stream is, generally

(01:02:55):
they'll say like if you have agrievance with your brother, you
should probably go and do thatfirst before you take communion,
but you're saying I understandlike the principle of what
you're saying, but I guess likehow would you hold those two
things in tension of it?
Saying like, yeah, sort, sortit out between your brother
before you're going to takecommunion.
You're saying like, hey, beforeyou go and address like
injustice from somebody, likeget yourself like in a right
heart posture before you do that, which I don't think those are

(01:03:17):
necessarily like mutuallyexclusive things, but I just
wanted to get your hot take onthat, and then I'll ask you the
questions that I had pertainingto what you just said.

Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
Yeah, dude, I mean communion is is one way that you
can experience.
Can I just really quicklyexplain what communion is?
Is that all right?

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
So I'm sorry to go off, but the reason why I
thought I might open a can ofworms when we get to this
question.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
I just want to bring it because it's really important
, because communion is healing.
That's what it is, that's thepurpose of communion.
It's the remembrance of thedeath that brings salvation, the
resurrection that bringshealing's communion, um and and
and.
And.
The reason why catholicsbelieve in transubstantiation is
because they believe that theblood of christ is the lifeblood
of everybody that has beenredeemed by him.
Right, and we, as protestants,we don't hold to that, but.

(01:04:04):
But I'm saying there's a,there's a rationale behind that.
But actually there there'ssomething really important to
know that taking on thelifeblood of Christ as the
ultimate sacrifice is the reasonwhy no blood was allowed to be
drunk or had in the whole of theJewish religion up to that
point.

(01:04:24):
Because when you took the bloodon of a beast, then you took on
their life and you don't wantto take on the life of a beast.
And so when Jesus comes andsays eat my flesh and drink my
blood and then lose all hisfollowers, and then in the upper
room he does this thing, he'staking the absolute pinnacle
sacrificial moment and sayingnow you can drink blood of a

(01:04:48):
sacrifice that you can take lifefrom.
And so when we were willing totake his body broken for us.
We remember his death and hisblood shed.
For us is the life that comesas a result of his resurrection,
and so, foundationally, you arehere.
It's a healing process, becauseyou are giving up your life for
his life to come into you.
That's the purpose of it that's.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
That's where you lose .
That's where you lose a lot ofpeople, even today.
It's not even that time.
Like I have friends likegrowing up, like yeah, I can get
down with like the teachings ofjesus, but that whole like
drink my blood, like that soundslike culty.
Have you ever seen a rob zombiefilm mike?
Like I'm not gonna do that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:24):
So right anyways, continue absolutely.
And I mean, one of the reasonswhy it's a powerful sacrament is
because it means something farmore than just the material
realm that exists in, which iswhat the Catholics are trying to
get at here, the EasternOrthodox are trying to get at
this.
It's foundationallytransformational, anyway.
So that balance between this ismy perspective, that balance

(01:05:47):
between before you takecommunion and and also the bible
talks about before you bringyour offering.
So, before you give to god, goand get yourself right with your
brother.
Um, and the reason for that isis that hopefully there's, as
you come before the lord and asyou come and behold his
sacrifice on the cross, as youcome and behold the fact that

(01:06:08):
you are a sinner like that, youthat you yourself have a plank
in your eye, whatever it is thatthere should be a conviction of
the spirit in your consciencewhere you say, oh man, before I
take this and receive redemptionfrom the judgment that God
should have over my life, Ishould actually probably go to

(01:06:29):
my brother and actually redeemhim from the judgment that I
hold over him.
And so, when you go to mybrother and actually redeem him
from the judgment that I holdover him, and so when you go to
your brother, it's not aconfrontational conversation
where you're trying to deal withconflict.
It's a repentance conversationwhere you say I repent of my
judgment for you or over you.
For me, that's what it'stalking about.
So for me it's not like you'regoing to go and hash out your
issues of politics.

(01:06:49):
For me it's like, hey.
So for me it's not like you'regoing to go and hash out your
issues of politics.
For me it's like, hey, justlike Jesus died for me in my sin
.
Even though I absolutely hatewhat you did, or hate what you
said, or don't agree with youpolitically, whatever it is, I
know that I'm holding judgmentthat even Jesus has taken away
from you, and so I can't holdthat judgment and then go
receive redemption for myself.

(01:07:10):
I have to get myself rightfirst.
So for me there's there's areally powerful story within
that context.
Because what, what that?
Because what communion shoulddo is which is why it's so
powerful is say to you, man, I'mabout to take on the life of a
divine, of the divine, perfecterof my humanity, and and how can
I take on that life and not goand repent to my brother and not

(01:07:33):
go reconcile to him becausereconciliation is not working it
out.
Reconciliation is apologizingand bridging that relational gap
and bringing it back togetherand we often think that like
working, like reconciliation isoh, I understand you now and you
understand me now.
It's like sometimes you're justnot going to understand each
other.
You just have to love eachother.
You just have to say I'm sorryfor holding you in judgment.

(01:07:53):
Is that helpful?
Am I making that make sense?

Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
yeah, it's good, man, I literally just trying to pick
your brain on that point,because that's immediately what
like came up in the in my mindwhen you're saying like okay,
like go and like deal with this.
Like on the second point, whenyou're talking about the snake,
so that's good, but going, goingback, so so like way back, when
you had the school girls cometo you.
They're crying before they evermake it to you you talked about

(01:08:16):
, the girl is black who came toyou and said, hey, this is the
lens of which my question, you,or what I'd want to kind of
understand from you, is thegirls who are coming to you.
They're crying because one ortwo or both things have happened

(01:08:41):
.
One, they've had some kind ofexperiential.
They had some kind ofexperience in their life where
that was a reality, where theywere kind of bludgeoned.
There's like a top-downleadership.
It was oppressive.
I've definitely bludgeoned.
There's like a top-downleadership.
It was oppressive.
I've definitely been in placeswhere it's like belong, believe,
behave, like don't askquestions, don't question.
I've been in places like that.
I just the way I have to policemyself because, uh, I have like

(01:09:06):
anti-authority bias, uh, andimmediately when I get into an
institution.
It's kind of like I thumb mynose at stuff.
I try to understand as I goolder.
Now I really try to understandthe spirit by which rules are
made Like why did you do that?
If they can't give me thosekinds of things, even if I
disagree, if they tell me likeI'll just give an example, and
this is going to offend somepeople, but I'm not, whatever.

(01:09:29):
So I went to Mozambique, africa,and I was in this ministry
school.
They said why are you here?
Absolutely in no circumstancedrink alcohol.
And they're like why?
Because alcoholism is a hugeproblem here.
We're trying to build likereputation.
There's like Muslim culture whocompletely abstained from
alcohol.
We're planting churches inMuslim villages.
We don't want to see the locals, like students, coming here
saying we're with this ministrywhere we're drinking alcohol,

(01:09:50):
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
It was like four or five monthsI was there.
I was like cool, I just itwasn't like a huge thing to me
and it's not like I'm like araging alcoholic or whatever,
but it's just like if I sat downa meal, maybe I'd have a beer
or something, but I'm just like,okay, I, I don't think that
it's not a problem for me, but Ican definitely see biblical
precedents where it says don'tlet your don't, don't let the
immaturity of other people uh,your freedom cause other people

(01:10:12):
to stumble, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, and don't get caught
up in these disputes about whatto put in your body.
So I'm like if I just fight onthis point, it's kind of like
nonsense.
It wasn't important to me, butI'm just making that as an
example of I understand why therule is made.
But I've been in otherscenarios where it's like why do
we do this?
Because I said so in Germany.
Ie, that was kind of thing.
It's like it's literally my waythe highway.

(01:10:34):
Why?
Because I said so.
So I'm like we're going to havea problem because I have a
leaning towards my relationshipwith the rules or generally to
break the rules before I becameChristian, and that bias has
carried over even as Christian.
That's the kind of nature.
So these girls are approachingyou A they could have had some
experience where that's verymuch the thing, where they've

(01:10:54):
been belittled, abused,traumatized in a sense,
emotionally or verbally, of likejust shut up, be quiet, take
what I'm saying, or or they'vebeen so conditioned by what
they've heard that it createdthat rowdy, it created the
boogeyman inside of their headbefore they ever came to you,

(01:11:15):
and then they were living out ofthat, that reality coming up.
But either either way, likethat's the truth that they're
believing about who tim, tim wasgoing to be um, there.
So so, and I guess I'll stopthere because there's another
point I want to make from thisabout European lawmakers and

(01:11:36):
some things that I observedthere.
So social media, all thatbuilds into a narrative of white
, straight, christian male isgoing to be X.
They're misogynistic, they'resexist, they're chauvinistic,
they're this.
And then, with leadership, it isa reality within church, but
also other institutions liketeachers and and politicians,
etc.
It's not just somethingexclusive to church, um, but but

(01:11:59):
do you feel like dealing withkids and that, or dealing?
I see kids dealing with peoplein that age?
Is there pre a lot ofpre-judgment, uh, kind of
projected on each other, butalso you, as is that the is?
Are these stories the exceptionor the rule, or is it like

(01:12:19):
somewhere in?

Speaker 2 (01:12:20):
between.
It's the rule, but from thatage group, my experience is it's
the rule, and what'sinteresting is that they're in
massive conflict A lot of thetime.
They're in conflict becausethey they hear what I'm saying,
I'm talking to them, and so soone of the big things is
feminism.
I, I'm not a massive fan offeminism.
It's third and fourth way.

(01:12:40):
First, like whatever greatthird and fourth feminism are
not found.
Um and when I go through,because in the school we talk
about cultural issues and wetalk about feminism and both of
them were huge, both these girlswere hugely offended by that.
Um and and it's reallyinteresting, but um, because no?

Speaker 1 (01:12:59):
no, go ahead.
So what was the effect?
You say they're hugely offended.
So just by you say you're not afan of it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:05):
But the what was the well, yeah, well, I basically
said that feminism is probablythe, but I I basically said that
feminine third and fourthfeminism probably is basically
the reason why women findthemselves in the position they
find themselves today, wherethey somehow.
I think feminism isfoundationally anti-women and
also the gateway to thetransgender movement.
And what happened in thatmoment was that they came to me

(01:13:30):
and they were like but they'reconflicted.
They're like alarm bellsringing ringing.
A white, middle class, straightman is talking about feminine
alarm bells are massivelyringing.
But also we trust you becauseyou're the leader, and so
there's this really interestingdynamic in that room.
One girl's a convert, anex-muslim.
She's a convert from islam.
Um she, she comes to jesus inour church and so she has all

(01:13:51):
that in the background as well,especially in terms of how
Muslims leave, which is verycontrolling.
And the other girl came from aPentecostal background, which is
quite controlling as well.
So they have these, and what Ifound is that it's not as simple
as saying they sit on one sideof the fence or another.
There's all these conflictingthings that come in, and the
only way that they can getaround it is if they begin to

(01:14:13):
build trust with me that I'm notsimply just some chauvinistic
man?
Now, actually I might be.
Maybe I've got massive blindspots and I'm like the worst
example of human men that couldever exist in the world.
Maybe that's true, but intaking the risk, what happened
is is that we actually builtrelationship and rapport where I

(01:14:34):
said to them hey guys, listen,can I just explain why I believe
what I believe?
And, by the way, I just want tosay at this juncture, if you
are under a leader who cannotexplain to you why they believe
what they believe, then it's nottheir belief.
They're regurgitating it andget out, because what they're
doing is is they're consistentlyjust regurgitating information.
They've not done any workthemselves.
You've got to get out.

(01:14:54):
They might have a charismaticpersonality, they might be
amazing at building and strategyand all the rest of it, but if
they cannot tell you the corefoundation of their belief, and
why get out?
Just get out straight away.

Speaker 1 (01:15:04):
And they're not interested in investing in you
or being in any form ofrelationship other than the fear
that you have legitimately likea power thing relationship,
other than the fear that youhave legitimately like a power
thing, Like sometimes, peoplewithin the church.
They miss the invitation torelationship and I've been in
situations where, like peoplewill want to quickly pull me
into leadership, like, pull meinto like speaking or pull me
into like the inner circle,whatever, but they actually miss

(01:15:27):
my invitation to relationshipof us, like whether we do this
or not, like I would like tohave a friendship with you.
It's not that you have to befriends with everybody, but like
it is an element of like thereis an invitation to a
relationship on some level.
Um, there that people miss andthat's really what it's about.
It's about god and people, notthat, anyways.

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
so continue sorry, but, but I think that's really
important and and this thing ofcovenant and agreement is really
important here, because,basically, covenant between God
and man is friendship.
That's what it is.
Old Testament it's moremarriage between God and the
Israelites.
New Testament is friendshipbeing a friend of God and being
part of the bride of Christ.

(01:16:08):
Right, and so when Jesus chosehis disciples including women,
by the way he was their friend.
He was a good, loving friend aswell as the saviour of the
world.
Right, and so what's reallyinteresting is that our model
for leadership from Jesus is weare people's friends.

(01:16:29):
We're not just their leaders,we're their friends.
Now, you can't be friends witheverybody.
I'm not saying like go aroundand like meet everybody and like
love them and stroke their face.
Don't hear me say that but whatI'm saying is that if I cannot
offer a covenantal relationshipof friendship, and I can only
offer a relationship that saysI'm in charge and you're a
follower, I've got a majorproblem with my leadership,

(01:16:51):
because Jesus never did that.
He never built some massivechurch in order that he could be
the leader and everybody elsecould be the follower.
He never, ever did that.
I'm not decrying big churches.
I'm part of a big church and wehave a great leadership team
here, but we offer peoplefriendship and when these girls
come to me, what they find firstand foremost is that I ask them
questions about what theybelieve in order to understand

(01:17:13):
them.
Yeah, and so what they get it'sactually a pretty big shock
because they're dude.
Honestly, like the fear ofapproaching me is.
I mean, I've never come fromthis background so I can never
fully understand it, but thefear of approaching me is so
tangible in the room as theywalk to me and you can see them
talking to each other beforethey come over to say should we

(01:17:34):
do this?
Should we not do this?
Like what, if you, whatever?

Speaker 1 (01:17:37):
it is.
It's so funny for me because Iknow you personally, so I just
think it's funny, like not tolike demean you in any way, but
just like someone having anxietyabout because you're a pretty
down-to-earth guy, like I justknow you hopefully I am.

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
I mean, I mean I I speak with conviction.
But I say to the guys all thetime hey, just because I'm
convicted does not mean I'mright.
You have to figure this thingout for yourself.
You've got to come and talk tome.
And so I mean it means that mynights go on to midnight because
I've got a queue of theseGeneration Z kids wanting to ask
questions.
That's crazy.
But I mean that's a sacrificeof the covenant relationship.
No-transcript.

(01:18:21):
They asked me these questionsevery week Kamala Harris, donald
Trump, abortion, euthanasia butthey asked me all these
Palestine, the Israel, gaza thatthey ask me these massively
deep questions.
And what I say to them is notthis is the definitive thing
that you must believe.
I ask them good questions aboutwhere they're coming to, and
then I gently challenge them andsay why, why is that?

(01:18:44):
And then they say to me so whatdo you think?
And at that point it's afriendship relationship where
now I'm investing in theirthought process to transform
their mind, not simply trying toprove my point.
And this is the thing right.
In our culture we have thisreally weird thing where
listening is not really reallistening.
It's where you're trying tofigure out how to respond.

(01:19:05):
So when you're quiet, you'renot actually listening.
You're trying to figure out howto conjure up a response to
dominate the person in front ofyou, which is another way of
getting your plank and shovingit in their face.
And it's really, reallyinteresting to me that all those
walls come down if you ask aquestion to people.
And so what's foundational isthat we break down the

(01:19:26):
stereotypical nature of what itis to be a leader, what it is to
be a man, what it is to be Idon't know, whatever the classic
things are.
Because now what I'd say is isfor Kishi and Valentina, who are
phenomenal thinkers, brilliantminds, grappling with these
things day in, day out, goinginto a secular environment full

(01:19:48):
of people of different faithsand different understandings.
And they come to me and theysay full of people of different
faiths and differentunderstandings.
And they come to me and theysay man, we, we have answers now
that we never knew that we hadbefore, and I was like how, how
did that happen?
It's like because we know whatthe story is and we know it's
not about us.
This is, these are their words,not mine.
We know it's not about us andwhat we think and how we want to
.
It's like it's about thebeginning of time and the cross

(01:20:10):
between the pinnacle of creation, and everything revolves around
that.
This is what we do in theschool, and what we see is is
that we see people invited intofriendship.
The other thing we always do, bythe way, is that it's not just
a teaching session.
They have to feed back andeveryone has to feed back with a
microphone from the stage,everybody.
It doesn't matter if you'renervous, young, old, whatever it

(01:20:32):
is, you have to do it, and ifyou don't, I pick you.
And some people are like no,I'm opting out.
I'm really scared.
I'm not going to force you, butthat's part of the thing,
because stop hiding.
Stop hiding behind these thingsthat you think that you believe.
Stop hiding behind your socialmedia echo chamber.
Stop hiding behind falsehumility or self-deprecation

(01:20:52):
like stop hiding, you're meantto be a light.
How are you going to be a lightif you can't even speak in
front of 50 people that alreadylove you?
Come on, let's think aboutthese things and as we build
those, those relationships andthose friendships, all of those
presuppositions come down andthey're like oh, actually, maybe
, maybe there's a different wayof thinking and I'm like maybe

(01:21:14):
there is, should we talk aboutit some more?
And so every sunday, everymonday and every thursday, I
have minimum 25 people come andthey they queue to talk to me
and listen.
I'm not a hero or genius, I'mgenuinely not.
I'm freaking, essex mate, butI'm not.
I'm not a hero, but all I'mdoing is trying to put into
principle the, the lifestyle ofjesus if you, if you come from

(01:21:39):
essex and you are comparatively,you are a hero to him yeah,
that's right I've made itbut I'm just saying and, and,
and, and it and it breaks downthe walls, it breaks down the
presuppositions.
Guys, I've got to sayunconscious bias is probably one
of the most ridiculous thingsyou'll ever hear in your life.

(01:22:00):
Like, just don't, don't spendany money on unconscious bias
training.
It's ridiculous.
What you've got to do is havegood conversations with people
and learn how to disagree.
Well, like that's what you haveto do.
And and and.
The lie is is that if youdisagree with someone, you can't
move forward with it.
It's a lie.
It's an absolute lie.
Anyway, dude, I just get reallypassionate about stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:22:17):
I don't know, yeah, it's brilliant.
I mean, you hit the nail on thehead earlier where you said I'm
convicted, but it doesn't meanthat I'm always right.
And you know, if I like share,I'm just like, hey, this is
where I'm at right now, butthere's a reality that everybody
who's alive right now you'regoing to die at some point and
you're going to believesomething wrong.
You're going to believesomething wrong about money,
about marriage, about kids,about the Bible, about God,

(01:22:40):
about yourself.
There are things that you'regoing to be really certain of.
But it actually was wrongbecause you're only seeing in
part.
You have a lot of blind spotsand you know what you know, you
know what you don't know, butyou don't know what you don't
know, and that keeps you in therealm of grayness in some areas
where you're going to have areally strong conviction.
But it's not going to be right.

Speaker 2 (01:23:00):
Right and what it says is that truth is like a
diamond.
We often think that truth islike a blunt object.
It's not.
Truth is like a diamond and youcan turn it and get a holy,
holy revelation.
And you can turn it and see thelight refract through that
light, through that again andand with so I've run this course

(01:23:20):
eight times.
We now have people from tokyoand scotland and all over the
place like come and join us forthis school and it's really good
.
I'm really, I'm really proud ofit, and.
But I've had people come to meand say, hey, have you thought
about this?
And I'm like I'll actually know, that's a really good point.
I should probably change thenotes.
And I've done it.
I've taken something out of thenotes and put something in the

(01:23:41):
notes because I'm like now,that's a really good point.
You turn the diamond and I sawsomething different.
That someone's right andsomeone's wrong is that, and
sometimes it is that.
Sometimes people are stupid andthey just they think crazy
things, but more often than notpeople are with ideas and they
turn the diamond.
You're like, oh, I never saw itlike that.
And what I would say that I dois is that I give people a

(01:24:02):
diamond and I just twizzle it, Itwirl it round and round and
round and let them see the lightcoming through it, the light of
christ coming through, thetruth of that diamond, and what
happens is is that they're likeman.

Speaker 1 (01:24:12):
I never realized that you could think about it that
way, and it's transformationalfor me yeah, well,
self-awareness is reallyimportant to the point that
you're making, because, like andI've heard like, this thing of
like being, like being beingbrave and then like having fear,
uh, like, depending on thesituation, it's not you can't
always be brave and you can'talways be a coward, but that's

(01:24:34):
what makes life hard is that youmake the wrong choice, the
wrong decision.
You'll be labeled one or theother stupid, stupid or brave,
coward or brave.
But so we're wrapping, we'regetting close to like wrapping
up here.
But one thing I did want tocircle into cause.
We talked about these girlscoming to you.
We talked about a narrativethat they believed in, one thing

(01:24:57):
that just popped up on my feed.
So I plugged back into x eversince must took it over because
it was pretty jarring for me,because all these social media
platforms have like all thiscensorship and kids gloves on
you can't see certain content,and x twitter is like, it's like
the wild west, unfiltered, likepeople just say crazy stuff.
Anyways, something popped up inmy feed and it was all these
european lawmakers, all womenand some trans women, uh, were

(01:25:18):
there standing with their armsfolded and it said american
sisters, we stand with you.
And the only thing I couldsurmise from that is that donald
trump has been elected and then90% of women who were voting,
that were polled, said thattheir main focus was abortion.
And then a lot of liberal menwho were interviewed on social

(01:25:39):
media and stuff.
What they would say is like I'mjust thinking about the future
of my daughters and I don't wantmy wife to have more rights
than they have, and blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah.
And so it kind of provoked afew things in me.
I'm like what the hell doEuropean people think is going
on right now?
What do they think is importantactually to the state of the
country?

(01:26:01):
But then also one of thethoughts I'm just trying to see
it from the departure point of adad.
So the dads are I can't see itas a woman because I'm never
going to have an abortion.
I'm sorry to the, but I'mtrying to think from the
perspective of one of these dadslike a liberal, progressive dad
.
I can't think as a womanbecause, regardless of what
trans people say, I'm nevergoing to be able to have an

(01:26:21):
abortion.
I have a penis and testicles.
I don't have a uterus.
I'm never going to be a 3Dprinter for a baby.
It's just not.
Can't think from a departurepoint of a woman.
That's where you know peopleare.
You're a woman, you understand.
But I'm thinking from thedeparture point of a dad on this
specific topic, and they'resaying like I'm just thinking
about my daughter's future andI'm like me too, and actually
what abortion is in essence?

(01:26:42):
At the end of the day, it's aform of contraceptive.
It's just the timeline of whenthat contraceptive is leveraged.
You're actually killing aperson versus preventing
pregnancy.
But it is a extreme form ofcontraceptive where you're not
allowing someone to develop.
And I'm thinking like, betweenthe time that my daughter is six
now and the time that shereaches sexual maturity to the

(01:27:03):
time where she gets intorelationships and then she'd be
sexually active, there's a lotof steps and a lot of things
that I should be ingraining intoher as a person, irregardless
of what's going on in the world,that she would if she's going
to engage in sex.
I'm just thinking of this froma Christian worldview and I'm
thinking of it from a secularworldview.
So if I think of it from aChristian worldview, I don't

(01:27:23):
need to go down the rabbit trailof like, hey, you should be in
a marriage, you know sex isconfined to, to, to that
relationship.
Because if you get pregnant,guess what's going to happen?
There's going to be a guy therewho's going to co-labor with
you to raise the kid.
You're going to be financiallystable, all the stress is there.
You don't have to make thegovernment, your husband or your
dad and try to elicit moneyfrom the government to function,
survive and let the governmentthen raise your kids so you can

(01:27:44):
go to work, et cetera.
So there's that.
But even if I was from a secularworldview and I was in the like
I believe in, like the freelove movement and I won't want
people confined sexually, I'mjust like that's a horrible form
of contraception, like in apragmatic, in the game of
trade-offs and pragmatism, evenif I'm not a Christian, even if
I say like yeah, I'm not goingto embrace this as like actually

(01:28:08):
killing a person, I like do allthe moral shuffling and all the
redefining of words, but evenit's like who says I love my
daughter and I want her to havea good life in the future and
I'm trying to protect her.
Why would you want to create astructure where that's something
she's going to have to engagein?
Because that was a point whereI couldn't really connect with

(01:28:34):
what was being said, and youmade the comment earlier when
you went through those threepoints about the snake that sin
actually has a collectiveconsequence with people, even if
you're not the person engagingin it.
There's a collectiveconsequence and so in that
trade-off of entertainingstupidity or entertaining ideas
that aren't yours orentertaining behavior that's not
yours, there's going to be aconsequence that you take on for

(01:28:56):
that.
And I think that that's what'sbeing missed here from both
parties.
One party is saying, like weneed this right to like be able
to like terminate this pregnancyand kill this baby or abort the
baby, depending on what kind ofdefinition you're going to put
that we need that and you're notletting us have access to that
in the full capacity that wewant.
And the other group is sayingthat we have a moral burden or

(01:29:21):
we have a burden on ourconscious for this to like stand
up for people who are not getor have a voice than innocent
and we just have a structure onhow we're positioning our lives
where that that's like outsideof, like in, like most people
who are in like moderate and Iwould say myself more but like,
if you exclude rape, incest andmedical situations where that

(01:29:44):
person's going to die, have somemajor complications with that,
etc.
Etc.
But just saying like, purely,we're using this as a
contraceptive because right nowI just don't want to have a baby
.
I don't, I really struggle justwith being a dad, that mindset
of like hey, I need to prepare abetter future.
I'm like what do you perceiveas better and what are you
preparing your daughter for?

(01:30:05):
Are you preparing your daughterto be a sex worker?
Are you preparing your daughterto like, what are you preparing
her for?
Because that's like a, a last,last, last resort of something
in my mind and I'm saying thisfrom the departure point that
people in my immediate familyhave had multiple abortions and

(01:30:26):
I see the physical effects of itin terms of cervical cancer.
I see the psychological effectsof it in terms of like when you
actually do have children andyou experience the gravity of
what that is and the theemotional effects of it, of
instability.
Uh, there, I don't know ofanybody who I love, who I'd say
I want them to go through this.
Does that make sense?

(01:30:47):
Now, I'm, I'm a, I'm a realist,I believe that there's
trade-offs.
I'm not a religious idealistwho says like under no
circumstance it's going tohappen, whether I want it to or
not.
There's people who are going totry to do and they'll do
botched attempts at it, you know, as they've done through like
history.
I'm not an idealist in thatsense, but I'm just not
understanding that point.

(01:31:08):
Point so like I don't know,like that kind of was just tying
in, like that was where my mindwas tying in what you're saying
, the girl's coming to you.
There's these European lawmakerswho are having this assumption
about what people are thinkingon the other side of like I'm
just trying to rob you of yourrights.
I'm not, I don't want to robanybody of of rights, but it's
like we all have a collectiveresponsibility of what when

(01:31:31):
we're making those decisions andwe have to be able to take
responsibility for decisions.
And if I'm thinking about thewomen in my life my wife and my
daughter and whoever my wife hashad two pretty like one really
hard delivery and the othersecond like hard pregnancy, like
um, and we've had like severalmiscarriages, stuff, so we
there's a, there's a real valueof the potential for life, and

(01:31:55):
then obviously the life of ourchildren, and then like anyways,
I'm going on kind of rant, butI kind of wanted to like get
your feedback of what, because Idon't have that much
interactions with people in likeGen Z on like a one-to-one
basis.
But, like you're in this school, you said that that's coming up
.
Like, what are they thinking?
And You're in this school, yousaid that that's coming up, what
are they thinking?
And then, in terms of dads whoyou talk to and hear me out,

(01:32:17):
people, if you don't have kids,I'm not as interested in what
you think.
I'm not saying that in ademeaning way, it's just you
will never understand as a womanor a man, you'll never
understand the value of lifeuntil you have a child.
In the same way, I'm not tryingto like speak down to people
who can't have children.
I'm just saying like, if you,if you don't have kids, you're a

(01:32:38):
single person and you're like,especially in your twenties,
you're like we just want to goto like Ibiza and rave and like
have no consequences to anychoice with me.
I just have no interest in that.
But anyways, give me somefeedback.
I'm going in a lot of differentdirections.

Speaker 2 (01:32:51):
Oh, dude, like.
It's just so much Like.
Abortion is not a rights issue,it's a sexual ethic issue.
Number one the reality of sexis that it's designed, whether
you believe in evolution orbiological evolution or
Christian faith.
It's designed to create life,and so to try and completely, um

(01:33:13):
, untether the potential forlife from sexual activity is one
of the most ridiculous thingsyou can ever do.
It just doesn't make any sense.
So it's a sexual ethic issue.
It's not a rights issue.
Um, the, the, the and and the.
But the issue is, in theeuropean context, that we stand
with you American sisters, orthe outrage that I've seen from

(01:33:38):
my American Democratic friendswho are saying you prioritized
your glass of milk, not going upby five cents to me now not
having rights over my own body.
I mean, it's such an extremeway of expressing that and not
really even that real.
But it's like there's thisreally interesting narrative

(01:33:59):
where it's all about me and it'sall about what I need in this
moment and it's all about whatis utopia for me in my life.
When I want kids, I'll havekids.
In that case, don't have sex.
I mean, for me it's literallythat simple and that's the whole

(01:34:19):
point.
And so we have to get to gripswith like a sexual ethic here,
and I think one of the bigthings for me is that the
greatest sexual revolution wasnot the 1960s, it was the first
century, because the sexualrevolution of the 1960s has
probably been the greatesttragedy for women in the course
of history.
Over sexual ethics, becausethere's that famous sex in the

(01:34:43):
city quote isn't there, which iswhere one of the characters is.
She can't find.
Why would I go and try and finda partner.
I'm just going to go have sexlike a man.
And this idea that women somehowcan have sex like men and just
go off and there's noconsequences, just like men or
the rest of it.
And actually that's completelystatistically not true.
Women have a far greater needfor connection in sex.

(01:35:05):
They have a far greateremotional engagement pre, post
sex, sex, um they, they havemuch more negative, associative
um feelings but also, um, uh,self-worth issues in sex and
after sex and so all that stuff.
It's all studied so it's noteven true.
And but the point of the firstcentury sexual revolution in the

(01:35:26):
church was no men need to havesex like women.
So in the romans times, in theissues with various different
pagan societies that women weresex slaves slaves.
If you were a female slave, youcould be raped at any point and
it was just what it was.
That that's your life.
Men could have multiple wives,but women could only have one

(01:35:48):
husband.
All of those things and thesexual ethic basically turned
everything upside down, becauseit monogamized sex into a
marriage relationship between aman and a woman, and what that
meant was not just from areligious perspective, but it
meant that family structureswere secure.
It meant that men were alwaysthere and they had a
responsibility to love theirwife like Christ, love the
church, which basically meanslay down your life and die for

(01:36:08):
her, get over yourself.
And it also meant that therewas a um, an accountability for
men.
That meant that they could notjust go and spew their seed
everywhere and see what happened.
It doesn't work like that andit should never have worked like
that.
Adam was made for eve, etc.
Etc.
And actually that tom hollandsays this actually that that is
the greatest gift thatchristianity ever gave was the

(01:36:30):
monogamization of sex,particularly for women and for
children, and what's reallyinteresting in this whole debate
about abortion is that men arenowhere in the picture.
It's about children's rightsand women's rights, and I'm like
you.
We missed the point.
The point is where on earth isthe, the one who can have sex

(01:36:54):
and walk away?
How on earth?
The great miracle ofChristianity is that men were
made to stay in family unitsBecause men do have no real
sense, biologically speaking, ofWomen can't make men stay in

(01:37:17):
families.
They can't.
Men are bigger, they can walkaway, they can physically
overpower you, they can sexuallydominate you all the rest of it
.
And the miracle of Christianityis that men were taught to stay
in a family unit with one wifeand look after your kids.
That is the only time inhistory that's ever happened and

(01:37:38):
we have absolutely underminedit.
And the issue is not women'srights and children's rights,
it's the sexual ethic between aman and a woman to, to, to be
together with the potential forlife whenever they come together
sexually, no matter whatcontraception they're on and, to
your point, because there's acollective burden on this whole

(01:38:02):
topic.

Speaker 1 (01:38:03):
That's also the argument.
If I'm going to pay taxesunwillingly through the effect
of violence, I have to pay taxesout that fund that decision.
As a man as well, I have nodecision on whether the baby is
going to.
The woman can do whatever shewants.
The effect of violence.
I have to pay taxes out thatfund that decision.
As a man as well, I have nodecision on whether the baby is
gonna.
The woman can do whatever shewants, hypothetically, if she
does want to keep it.
The government is then steppingin as a pseudo husband, father

(01:38:23):
in the sense of like I'llprotect you and provide by you,
by extracting money from thisperson who you can choose to
exclude from that child's life.
It's a complete perversion ofthe family unit where it makes
the person interdependent on thestate.

Speaker 2 (01:38:36):
Absolutely, and what I say is that I think that
normally that's out of a goodheart.
Big government is a good heartbecause it says what about the
vulnerable?
What about the people whosehusbands walk out on them?
What about the people orwhatever?
But the problem is is when theexception becomes the rule.
So what we do is is that wecreate systems of thought and

(01:38:59):
governance around the exceptionof the vulnerable, when actually
what we should be doing is weshould be creating systems of
governance that reflect an ethicthat we want everyone to be
part of.
That's what the church shouldbe doing and has done up until
200 years ago, and, and I'd say,the heart of government to
stand with the people who arevulnerable.
The problem is is that manywomen and men now choose

(01:39:21):
abortions on the basis ofconvenience and, honestly, that
is the most heinous crime.
It's the most heinous selfishthing that you can do, both men
and women, and it's not even andI'm never going to experience a
pregnancy or experience anabortion I'm talking about the
decision between men and womento have sex and then abort a
child.
That was always going to be apotential consequence.

(01:39:42):
It is a foundationally selfishnarrative.
Now, I'm not saying that therearen't circumstances where those
lines are grey and the linesare blurred.
Of course they are.
We have to love people, walkthem through it pastorally.
But there is also truth, and bro, I'm not being funny.
The issue is a sexual ethicissue.
It is not about what rights thewoman has and what rights the

(01:40:04):
kids have.
It's what rights are extendedto the child as a result of a
sexual combination, because inthat moment you know that you
could have a kid and so for me,you take responsibility, both of
you, for what is going tohappen in that woman's body.
And the man stays around andthe woman says, all right, this
is the reality and you can neverenforce that.

(01:40:27):
But I'm saying a principle,transcendent truth level.
You can never, ever get awayfrom sexual responsibility.

Speaker 1 (01:40:34):
And I've got to go because my wife's gonna kill me
yeah, yeah, what I'll, what I'llset up for our next
conversation is like you madethe point of um, that a woman
can't make a man stay, and sothat would be like the.
This is going to be the, thecontroversial hook that gets
people to watch.
The next one is women who arein government.
I'm not not saying this to befunny, I'm not saying this to be

(01:40:54):
chauvinistic.
Massages that you're ingovernment because men allow you
to be in government.
If we physically want to justoverpower you and like, take
over and be that, we would, butwe're we're operating out of a
different guiding system thanlike us being in ourselves.
Who do you call when someonebreaks in your house?
The, who predominantly are men.
If there's a female cop,generally she will call back up

(01:41:14):
to men.
We see watch an episode of copsfrom the 90s.
Anytime there's a female cop,you better dial in because she's
going to get ragdolled at somepoint and she's going to have to
have other cops happen.
So I'm not trying to demeanwomen, I'm just saying like we
all have roles and people haveforgotten.
They've forgotten the baselinethat if violence needs to be
done or something needs to beprotected, you call a man to go

(01:41:36):
do it, you need somebody totunnel underneath trenches.
In the First World War itwasn't women doing that.
And I'm not saying women don'thave value.
They can do things that mencan't do.
But we've missed that role.
And for most of human history,men have stepped up as
protectors, not just of womenand children, but really of
societies and theinfrastructures that make our

(01:41:57):
modern lives possible.
And when we look at societieswhere women can't get a driver's
license and they can't vote andthey can't go to school, it's
really clear that we've takensome advancements for granted.
In the West that didn't justhappen on their own.
Men played a pretty significantrole in allowing this progress,
supporting women, expandingroles rather than literally or

(01:42:17):
figuratively just empoweringthem.
And if we're being honest, mencollectively chose to withhold
power.
Like I said, they could do it.
We could just refuse that womenwould not have a seat at the
table.
But in the Western world wemade a conscious decision and a
collaboration to broaden roles,to open up opportunities, and

(01:42:38):
it's had a really profoundimpact.
It's a good thing.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing,but I think that some people
have just forgotten about this,and when you see something done
for the first time, you suddenlyrealize it's possible.
And so, yes, women move intoroles, and we've seen they can
do things really exceptionallywell, but there's still things
that have physical demands thateven the average man might not

(01:42:58):
be able to do.
So a woman is going to bereally struggling, and
specifically something like acombat role in the military.
They've done plenty of attemptsat this.
A woman has to carry a 50-kilorucksack, it's just
non-negotiable and it justcrumples them.
And so the attempts tointegrate women.
Basically what happens is theyhave to lower their standards,

(01:43:19):
and so in a combat situation,that's not ideal because the
enemy is not going to make thoseconcessions.
And so this raises a reallyserious question about, in the
game of trade-offs that we'retrying to play, whether losing
sight of biological realities infavor of ideals and doing
things that feel good instead ofthings that actually do good.
And there's no doubt, whenpeople talk about toxic
masculinity, that there is aform of masculinity that is

(01:43:42):
toxic, but there's also apowerful, healthy form of
masculinity we don't talk aboutenough, and at times this comes
down to the way men are raised,and women are already highly
influential in shaping ourculture.
They're often the teachers in asingle-family home, it's
generally the mom it's largelymothers raising the next
generation.
Everybody who's ever been born,ever, is coming from a woman,

(01:44:04):
and so they have a significantrole in shaping young men.
But when we sometimes overlookthe fact that a man can't raise
a girl to be a woman, the viceversa is true as well.
Moms do incredibly work.
I'm not trying to talk downabout single moms, but we have
to recognize that there's anideal Women's role.

(01:44:25):
They're incredible at.
It is nurturing babies to beboys, helping them feel loved,
helping them feel accepted.
But fathers, ideally, are thereto point them towards the world
, to prepare them for thechallenge of responsibility, and
a father's job is to test hisson's character and his
readiness, give him meaning andpurpose, often through setting

(01:44:47):
expectations around protection,around provision and creating a
legacy for the next generation.
And we see how powerful thatpurpose can be.
There's a story I remember fromthe UK and you'll appreciate
this Tim of World War I, whereveterans who had nearly they
were completely catatomic fromtrauma from World War I.
They're redrawn, they're livingin like an institution.

(01:45:11):
And the second World War poppedoff and the bombing started and
many of these men suddenly justtook up arms.
They started driving rescuevehicles and emergency vehicles
and helping people.
Something in them reignited bypurpose.
Another example is in Cambodia.
After the genocide there wasoften like landmines scattered
around.
It would cause countless deathsand injuries and American

(01:45:32):
doctors went to Cambodia andthey were trying to introduce
antidepressants.
And the Cambodia doctors weretelling a story, they were
explaining what antidepressantsdo and they're like oh, it just
helps people be happier orsomething like that.
And like, oh, yeah, we havetreatment for that.
And they explained this guylost a leg, depressed, laying in
his bed, and they just gave hima cow to take care of and he
had like a means of incomebecause he could milk the cow,

(01:45:54):
he could strap a seat to hisbutt and he had purpose in the
village again.
And so when you look at theStates, you know 65% of the
world's antipsychotics,antistress and antidepressant
medication is consumed byAmericans and predominantly
that's done by women, and so wesee that mode being imposed on
men.

(01:46:14):
So when we see an over-relianceon antidepressants and
anti-anxiety meds in the West,it's fascinating that it's just
an evident flaw in what womenare so capable with empathy and
attunement to detail.
And all these highlights thatjust men aren't, but they're
just biologically andpsychologically different, and

(01:46:35):
what they need and purpose, andsometimes what's prescribed for
one, like needing to feel lovedor firm, keeps men in a
childlike state, if taken to theextreme, like babies with
beards and, and you know, guysliving in their parents'
basements till they're like youknow, 40, playing video games,
et cetera, and and and so thethe mother's role is essential
one, but the father's role, inmasculinity itself, is testing a

(01:46:56):
person's capacity to stand upunder stress, to confront the
world head on, derive meaningfrom that responsibility, and so
it's kind of like this paradoxin modern world One hand, we're
rightly concerned with makingspace for women, nurturing
people's emotionally wellbeing.
On the other side, we're riskingand forgetting what makes us
different as men and women, andthe power in embracing that
difference and men, historically, were activated in duty and

(01:47:18):
purpose.
The real question isn't just howwe support everyone emotionally
, but it's how we build asociety that gives people a
genuine sense of meaning andresponsibility, especially young
men, and Peterson hits really,really heavy on this and so it's
crucial to recognize that men'srole as protectors isn't just
an outdated tradition, but it'sa deeply ingrained part of

(01:47:39):
maintaining a society where lifeand harmony can flourish, and
every man who's ever come intothe world has done so through a
woman.
I said that before.
The truth alone highlights thesacredness of a woman's role in
humanity, and men are meant tosafeguard that harmony there.
And men, historically, are theones standing between harm for

(01:48:04):
those that they love and they'reprepared to use force to the
extent where they'll lay downtheir lives.
This role of sacrificing, evenviolently, in the name of peace
and preservation deserves agenuine respect and a genuine
adoration in that sense.
But yeah, that's the best formsof masculinity, it's not just

(01:48:26):
bullying and what's diagnosedthere.

Speaker 2 (01:48:30):
And yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts, thoughts
there and what I say is this isthat the christian ethic is that
the creation narrative is menand women are created completely
equal, but completely different.
Yes, and so what?
And so what we're trying to dois is that we're trying to
create equality of human beingsfrom an egalitarian equity and

(01:48:51):
equality point of view, and ithas never worked in the history
of the world.
What we have to do is is thatwe, as men, have to restrain
ourselves.
Listen.
This is why, oh gosh, I'm goingto bang on about this now, but
this is, this is a teaser forthe next time.

Speaker 1 (01:49:03):
I just want, yeah, I just want to get the hook for
next time.

Speaker 2 (01:49:06):
But this is why every rites of passage um for a man
involves in antiquity in ancienttimes go outside of the camp,
go kill something, make a fire,don't die.
Why?
Because you realize the enemyis outside the camp and not in
the camp.
So when you go back to the camp, you protect them, you protect

(01:49:28):
the women who's by nearly everycivilization, whose rights of
passage are create a home,create environment, learn to
cook, learn to forage, whateverit is.
It's not that they're different, so it's not that they're
unequal.
They're completely and utterlydifferent.
And equality is killing usbecause we're not equal.
No one's equal.
Everyone is foundationally onlyequal as a child of God.

(01:49:50):
Equality is not the point.
The point is how do we prefereach other's difference?
And I would say that men andwomen are very bad about our
current culture.
All right, that's a good placeto stop.

Speaker 1 (01:50:04):
Thanks, Ben.

Speaker 2 (01:50:06):
Bye dude, see you soon, man, bye, bye, bye.

Speaker 1 (01:50:09):
All right guys.
That's a wrap.
Big thanks to Tim for coming ondiving into some tough issues
that are probably gonna triggersome people.
If something we talked abouthit home for you, if it got you
thinking or challenged yourperspective, let us know, Post
it out on social media.
Tag us in it.
We'd love to hear how thatresonated with you and in what

(01:50:32):
way.
And if you know somebody who'dbenefit from hearing this don't
keep it to yourself Share withthem.
I think these conversations areworth having.
We're thinking out loud,especially in a world where it's
easy to get stuck in our ownlittle bubbles.
We need voices like Tim's,who's going to challenge us, to
look at the bigger picture,think bigger, pull the log out

(01:50:52):
of our own eye, since thatreference was made several times
.
So thanks for tuning in.
I'll catch you on the next one,Take care.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Breaking Bias and Unmasking Assumptions: A Fight for Meaning, Morality, and Culture in an Age of Division

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

The Joe Rogan Experience

Dateline NBC

All Episodes

Breaking Bias and Unmasking Assumptions: A Fight for Meaning, Morality, and Culture in an Age of Division

Stuff You Should Know