Redemption through Pain: Forging Identity in the Shadow of Anti-Heroes

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right, folks, welcome back that theme from.
Welcome Back caught in my headwhen I say that Today we're
tackling a conversation that'sreal, it's raw, it's packed with
insights we all need to hear.
I'm joined once again by theunstoppable and mildly eccentric
Tim Churchward.
This episode is full spectrum.

(00:22):
We dive into forgiveness,redemption, identity, legacy and
what it truly means to be ahero in a culture that is
obsessed with antiheroes.
And we explore the rise of theantihero, why that resonates so
much with us and what thatreveals about us, and how they
contrast with the enduringlessons of biblical heroes,

(00:45):
people like David and Jacob.
And these aren't just stories,they're blueprints for struggle
and redemption andtransformative power of faith.
And we also look at the ideasthat play out in the challenging
lives of Gen Z here in themodern age.
And Tim and I unpack thereality of hookup culture,

(01:06):
financial struggles andrelationships and the growing
trend of transactional mindsets,and we confront myths of
hyper-individualism, theimportance of pain for growth
and why commitment is thecornerstone for a lasting love
and purpose.
This isn't about avoiding life'sdifficulties.

(01:26):
It's about facing them head onand coming out stronger on the
other side.
We talk a bit about legacy, whyit's vital to build on what's
come before us instead ofstarting from scratch.
Every single generation, and atthe core of it all is the power
of transcendent truths and theunshakable principles that guide
us through relationships,personal challenges and the
chaos of modern society.

(01:47):
So if you're searching formeaning, clarity or just a
better understanding of how tonavigate some of life's tough
questions, you're in the rightplace.
Let's get after it.
Welcome to the map 2, 1, 0, allengines running.
Liftoff.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Nice.
So one of the things that yousaid you wanted to talk about
today was continue with thetheme of forgiveness, redemption
, restoration theme offorgiveness, redemption,
restoration and one thing that Ikind of wanted to pick your
brain about was just likelooking at archetypes in society
.
Uh, like that this kind of tiesinto it, looking at archetypes

(02:34):
in society.
And then you're familiar, Ithink me and you've talked about
like the fourth turning theorybefore before, so like most
people be familiar with it oflike hard times make strong men,
strong men make good times,good times make weak men, weak
men make hard times.
So there's this cyclical cyclein society and I think different
archetypes arrive or raise upout of those times.

(02:57):
You were talking aboutredemption and restoration and
one thing that I've been playingwith for the last year is the
idea of a anti-hero and from abiblical narrative, who are
anti-heroes and so to defineI'll give you my definition of
anti-hero and then I'll hearTim's definition before we move

(03:17):
forward.
So my definition of ananti-hero is somebody who is
flawed, they're morallyambiguous and they often use
unconventional or questionablemethods to get where they need
to go and they ultimately seek agreater purpose, but the means
sometimes is questionable interms of justifying the end.
So that's kind of a verybroad-stroking definition of

(03:40):
that archetype.
But how would you kind ofdefine a, an anti-hero?

Speaker 2 (03:46):
yeah, I think I'm there, I I think.
I think I always think ofanti-heroes being the ones that
you sympathize with the most,because they're they're kind of
like these human forms of theheroic that really aren't that
heroic necessarily, but they,but you can, I feel like you can
.
I think the rise of theanti-hero, for me at least, is
because you can really, um, youcan really relate to them.

(04:06):
That's the big jam.
So in the battle of good versusevil, this big Marvel narrative
, actually I think people werejust like getting bored of it
almost.
It was like this whole sense inwhich good and evil kind of
balance each other out.
That's not Christian, obviously,that's not biblical.

(04:30):
Good is far away as evilbiblically.
But um, but the idea of goodversus evil almost became a
narrative that was boring.
So the anti-hero re-circumcised, so so I think I think I'd live
with your definition of that.
I think the.
I think the thing that I wouldagree the most about your
definition is this is this the,the questionable means by which
you become or try and becomeheroic or try and supersede your
status in life or whatever?
Yeah, and I think like theextreme examples of that would
be like the joker right or likeor like those, those people that
you have like this they're theevil villain, but they've all

(04:52):
almost like anti-hero aspect tothem.
So yeah, I'm there.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
I'm good with that yeah, well, the reason why I
wanted to kind of like tie thatin with like restoration,
redemption is because there arethere is this redemptive arc in
anti-hero.
So I was like kind of likethinking of back to our last
conversation.
I talked about thomas shelby alittle bit, who has his own like
kind of clearly, like Iwouldn't necessarily put him in

(05:15):
as the anti-hero per se, butthere is a redemptive arc within
, within the story of thatperson.
Looking at the story of jacob,looking at the story of david,
looking at the story of David,looking at the story of Saul of
Tarsus, and what I witnessed inmedia, when you look at art and
when you look at media, it'skind of the watermark of where
we are in that fourth turningcycle.

(05:36):
Are we in an unraveling period,are we in a crisis period, et
cetera.
And I think I watched in mediaand all the nerds who are like
super into like comic-con, allthat stuff, were getting upset
because they're like they'rekilling our heroes, they're
taking our heroes this or thisarchetype of what our hero is
and they're they're twisting itand turning it, but the

(05:57):
anti-hero, uh, in essence, isanti-establishment, uh, and it's
like there's this picture oflike the really polished,
morally virtuous, chiseled,jawline superman, right like
superman it's not with thismustache, dude, but superman.
Superman, you know, could justrule the entire world but, you

(06:18):
know, chooses to be in in hiding, refuses to kill people, that's
his whole deal.
I remember in the new supermanseries like people lost their
minds because superman ended upkilling general zog and then
like no, that's not canon, likehe would never do that.
So there's kind of thisdesperation within the arts and
within the media to questionthat archetype, and we'll lead

(06:41):
into this later.
But there is one hero that wecan point to who was an actual
hero, not an anti-hero, actualhero.
Who?
Who walked that out?
But yeah, so I don't know whereto jump in here.
I threw out, I threw outjacob's story, I threw out
david's story, I threw out allof tarsus story, um, but yeah, I

(07:04):
that was one of the things Iwant to talk to you about.
So I'll just kind of pass theball to you and like where you
want to, like, pick up exactly,and we'll tie forgiveness in
there as we kind of unpack.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
But sorry you were.
You were talking about theanti-hero aspect of it and I
mean, I don't know where youwere going to go or where you
want to take that, thatconversation, that story.
But obviously, like we, we this,this, this narrative of the
heroic being, so in TwinkieMarvel, like this demigod thing,
so like the Herculean god slashman forming some sort of thing

(07:38):
like Superman, or like you getbitten by a radioactive spider
and you become Spider-Man, or orthat, there's something,
something supernatural thathappens to your normal being and
that has become the, the, the,the mainstay of the hero
stereotype.
And then, obviously, theanti-hero really doesn't have
all that much, as far as I cansee, supernatural ability is

(07:59):
actually, I'm trying his best to, or her best to be, the best
that she can be, on the basisthat she's a human being, or
like really wrestling with thoseinner, the inner nature of the
fullness of humanity and tryingto overcome that in some way.
So the anti-hero isn't, isn'teven just the opposite, or a new
narrative, it's, it's ahumanistic narrative of the we

(08:21):
have to hear right For sure.

Speaker 3 (08:22):
Yeah Well, I was just trying to look at, you know,
one of the criticisms thatMuslims would give to the Bible.
They would say look at somebodylike David.
David is basically ruling overthe country and he's supposed to
be a mouthpiece for God.
He's a man who's after God'sown heart.
But here's a guy who hasn't youknow, basically is like a

(08:42):
peeping Tom.
He's on top of his house.
He's just casually watchinglike women get naked bathe.
There's a time of day thenpeople be up there, so he knows
what he's doing.
So he's going up there watchingBathsheba bathe and then his,
his lust gets to a point he'slike well, I'm the king of this
country, I'm just going to goafter that woman, even though

(09:02):
she's married to one of his bestfriends.
So then they have thisrelationship.
And in order to cover up thatthey're having this relationship
, he has his friend sent to thefront lines in a war zone where,
more likely than not, he'sgoing to be killed.
And it's a way to indirectlydeal with the situation, like

(09:24):
not confront the situationhead-on, but you're doing it in
a really like awful way.
And yeah, yeah.
Or you look at the story of ofjacob, who israel is, you know,
eventually named after.
Here's a guy who and I lovethis story I have like a
different take on this storythan how I'm going to say it
exactly, but if you look at iton surface value, here's a guy

(09:47):
who deceives his father andbrother so that he can get his
brother's birthright.
In that culture, the firstbornin the family is going to get
the biggest share of theinheritance, and so his brother
is a little bit of a knucklehead, very impulsive, really driven
by his endocrine system, so hetricks his brother out of giving
him his, his birthright andlike kind of causes this

(10:09):
disruption within his family andeventually has this really
profound encounter with god,which he's the only person in
the bible who, when he sees themanifest presence of god, says
hold, hold, my beer, I think I'mgoing to wrestle that thing and
holds on for dear life untilGod blesses him essentially.

(10:32):
But through that encounter he'scrippled.
He walks as a cripple for therest of his life, or somewhat
crippled, and his name has to bechanged and any good hero has
to take on an alias Bruce Waynehas to become Batman, frank
Castle has to become thePunisher and Star-Lord Tarsus
has to become Paul, and so inthis scenario, jacob has to

(10:54):
become Israel, which literallymeans he who wrestles with God
or he who struggles with God.
And so I think there's somethingreally profound in the sense of
justice, in the sense ofredemption, in the sense of
restoration, that culturally,what we're seeing is people say

(11:16):
we don't believe in heroesanymore.
There's several offshoots of,for example, the Boys is a comic
series where it just showssuper people who have like
god-like superpowers, like whatyou're saying, but they're
completely depraved, likecompletely like the worst part
of what you would think somebodywould be.

(11:36):
So people have have we don'tbelieve in heroes anymore, so
it's left this pocket for theidea of an anti-hero to to arise
, but then we're negating thatthere was an actual hero at some
point who redeemed, uh, thatbroken part of humanity anyway.
That's why I was.
That's, that's the arc that I'mgoing through with this.
That's why I'm like pushinginto that, because I think,

(11:58):
culturally, what we're seeingpeople who are oblivious
anything of a christianworldview per se or biblical
worldview they were in a we'vewent from an unraveling into a
crisis period in the fourthturning.
If you want to subscribe tothat idea and the idea of heroes
, the media wants to kill thatidea because they're so what to
say, what's the right word?

(12:19):
And disturbed and jaded on theidea that something could be
good, while out the other sideof the mouth they just say
everybody's good, good, butthere could be no good.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
There's a thing about the anti-establishment piece as
well, and so this fourthturning circle and that theory.
I mean, I don't know if peoplewill find this in any way
interesting, but really it wasHegel that started all of that
process.
He started the idea that humanhistory was cyclical, that there

(12:52):
was a thesis and an antithesis,and then the two came together
to make a synthesis and that wasthe next kind of season of
human life.
What's really interesting abouthegel is that um marx takes him
on, karl marx takes on thishegelian philosophy, this
understanding that human historyis cyclical, that there is this
thesis and this antithesis ofthe antithesis, obviously, of
the thesis, and then they cometogether in the synthesis.
But Marx makes it number oneeconomic and number two

(13:15):
individual.
That's what he does.
And so, from this overarchingtheory about what it is to be in
this cyclical nature ofhumanity as something as grand
as ideas or governments orsociety or whatever else,
because Marx really hones in onthe individual, and actually
this is my view, I'm telling youwhat I think.
And so, karl Marx, what he doesis that he brings it down to

(13:37):
the level of the individual.
And so now the level of theindividual in terms of creating
a new utopian or new societymeans that you have to be
anti-establishment to your corein order to break down the

(13:57):
synthesis I'm sorry it was breakdown the synthesis that has
gone before you, so you becomethe antithesis.
So so when we look at how thesethings evolve, I, I, I, I hear a
lot of echoes in marxianphilosophy, marxist philosophy,
um, particularly around conflicttheory.
Like for anyone that thinkscommunism, when I'm talking
about carl marx, just get rid ofcommunism for a moment, like

(14:18):
I'm not talking about that.
I'm talking about conflicttheory, the idea that, um,
everybody is in conflict forlimited economic resource, and
he talks about it as an economicscale of class.
But really, we evolve our ideaof what a good person is, or
what a hero is, when it isn'tthe person that is championed by
the state, or the one thatrises to the top, or the one who

(14:38):
is the chisel jaw, captainAmerica, the one who is the
perfection of what that societyis.
Suddenly, in the 1800s, we havethis really interesting dynamic
where the re-narration of thehero is one who will go about
undermining and rethinking andreally coming counter to the
narrative that has been createdby the society beforehand.

(15:02):
But for Marx.
It's really interesting.
His idea of the thesis and theantithesis coming together isn't
necessarily a synthesis.
He thinks that conflict isperpetual and so he is looking
for the hero the anti-hero inour sense to be the
revolutionary who overthrows therevolutionary, who goes against
the time is coming who goesagainst the status quo and the

(15:26):
standard organizational dynamicsand overthrows that thing to
create something new of equalityfor all, where everyone can be
as human as each other.
Now, obviously we know thatthat's completely failed in many
communist states, and GeorgeOrwell does a great job of that
at Animal Farm.
And I mean we see the fact thatcommunism and far left and far

(15:47):
right are actually exactly thesame thing in their outworking,
but in terms of you get tyrannyeither way.
But what's interesting is thatMarx, I think, really builds the
philosophical landscape for theantihero, which is essentially
you have to be someone whostands up against the man, the
patriarchy, like whatever it is,and you bring that thing

(16:07):
tumbling down in order that youcan sort of thrive or become the
person you want to be or even,on a grander level, create the
society you want to create.
And what's really interestingabout that is that that is
anti-pagan heroes, which arethese demigods?
Is that, that is, anti-paganheroes?
Which are these demigods?
It's anti-religious heroes,which are the people who look

(16:29):
most like God.
They're the ones that are mostcelebrated, but it actually
completely sidesteps the trueJudeo-Christian hero, which is
your Moses or your David orwhoever, who actually are the
ones who they're heroic becauseof the pain that they endure,
the mistakes that they make, buttheir ability to reinvent

(16:49):
themselves through god, asopposed to themselves, or crush
the, the entirety of the systemthat they're under, and so that
the judeo-christian hero isactually a sort of anti-hero,
but not the way that modernitywould describe it.
The Judeo-Christian hero is onethat goes through suffering
pain.
I'm the one who is a leader butdoesn't try and I don't know

(17:13):
like divide.
They try and keep everyonetogether, one who is massively
full of failings, and Moses is amurderer, and David is an
adulterer, and Solomon is like apolygamist and whatever it is.
But these heroes overcome theirsin, not on the basis that
somehow they get better, but onthe basis that they turn to God
and God heals them.
And so there's something reallyimportant to know that the

(17:35):
narration of pagan, roman, greekmythology of what is heroic,
the narration of Marxist heroism, the nature of our current
Marvel recession with theanti-hero.
Really they're all shadows ofwhat a real hero is, which is
someone who is unbelievablyanti-heroic but is made heroic
by God, and it's just a reallyinteresting dynamic For me, at

(17:57):
least that's where I see that inthe grand schema of
philosophical thought over theages.
But I mean, come back back tome, what do you think?

Speaker 3 (18:05):
yeah, I think at some point that's kind of where I
was driving at is this and likerecognize this within myself
because I do haveanti-establishment bias like
that's my default and that'ssomething because I'm self-aware
of that I always have to keepmyself in check of, like, if I
see like a sensational, likestory, my, my default would be
like, yeah, screw the government, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Like that, that's my, that'smore so.

(18:26):
My default is like looking atinstitutions and scrutinizing
institutions.
But like, as I've gotten older,I realized you have to keep the
structure and the scaffoldingin place by which society was
founded and then you have toreach out into the ethos of
something that has never beenand you have to slowly, slowly
pull it back in and figure outhow do we actually integrate
that?
So when people label stuff asprogressive or conservative, I

(18:49):
think these terms are like lost.
They mean nothing in thatessence of what I'm talking
about.
But that would be a trueconservative and a true
progressive.
A true conservative would be Iam the guy standing on the
watchtower making sure thatthings are not coming into the
camp at night, killing everybodywhile we sleep.
Like I'm observing the strangerwho is coming in and is this

(19:12):
person going to be a contributoror are they going to be a
problem, etc.
And you always have a gun.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
If you're a conservative, you always have a
gun to kill the intruder, justin case they come in the door.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
So the conservative is safeguarding stories, it's
the storyteller, it's thesafeguarding, morals it's
safeguarding.
Why do we have these values inplace?
And, to your point, what's beenpushed, even on small kids like
, think about most disney filmsor think most about disney
content, like, let's just say,like moana, for example, her

(19:43):
dad's, like she gets celebratedbecause everybody else is dumb
comparatively to her.
She has this intuition, she hasthis wild streak where she
wants to go out past the breakerof these waves and because she
goes on this fantastical journey, she can come back and she
saves everybody because she didthat.
Now, that, in some essence, isthe heart of progressivism.

(20:03):
But she was at the end.
If you look at it through aholistic lens, she is preserving
her people in that it wasn'tlike they threw the baby out
with the bathwater.
She just expanded the bordersof where they could fish and
where they could source food andthat they would go and inhabit
other islands, in a sense.
But you miss the forest for thetrees if you think this is all

(20:25):
about deconstruction anddeconstructing what's already
established.
So true progressivism and truejustice because we talked about
justice is reconciliation.
It's like wherever we kind offind ourselves in the fence
because some of us will.
We all have bias, so some of usare going to be more on the
conservative side of like Idon't like change, I like pink
staying the way they are.
And there's going to be otherpeople who will consider a

(20:47):
little bit unhinged, they're alittle bit crazy.
They dance out here in theethos of like what has not been.
They fail a lot, they will faila lot, trying to find something
like of substance, pulling itback in, that we can actually
integrate, and so we kind ofdismiss them as they try and try
and try.
And you have people who areinventors and engineers and
artists who like, for example,edison is famously quoted as

(21:11):
saying I haven't found, Ihaven't failed 10,000 times, I
found 10,000 ways that haven'tworked.
You have to have a verycalloused mind and a kind of
character, in a sense, to dothat, to take that kind of
failure to find something.
And you absolutely need thosepeople.
You absolutely need somebodylike Elon Musk who's like we

(21:31):
need to have a satelliteinternet for everybody, we need
to put people on Mars, we needto dig tunnels underground.
You need people like that.
But that that only works.
That only works when you havestructure to springboard off of.
And I'll just finish with thisthought that musk himself I was
reading this article about.
When he, like, started with theev market, he actually handed

(21:54):
over all of his patents to BMW.
He gifted it to them and peoplethought this was like business,
suicide, right.
So he gifted them their patents.
Why did he do that?
Well, he did that because therewasn't actually enough demand.
He built this entireinfrastructure, found really
efficient ways to do something,but people weren't bought into
the idea of electric vehicles atthat point.
But there wasn't.
People weren't bought into theidea of electric vehicles at

(22:15):
that point.
So him gifting it to thembasically led them to say you
idiot.
And they started dumpingbillions of dollars into that
industry having chargingstations, and people got bought
into the idea.
And so, in essence, like he wasalready light years ahead, he
already figured out how are wegoing to do charging stations?
My batteries are 67% moreefficient than yours.
Blah, blah, blah.
So he already had all thatworked out, and so by the time

(22:37):
that they started building thisinfrastructure, he was already
in a place to capitalize on it.
So what was my point there?
My point is he leveraged theestablishment because he had
such a good idea to integrate it.
He didn't say let's burn it alldown and I'm not here to make a
statement about electricvehicle vehicles, because it's
kind of a crapshoot in some waysin terms of the grid being able

(22:59):
to sustain that.
But I'm just saying that that'sa great example of taking
something out of the ethos andtrying to establish it and
leveraging it.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
And I guess you're not talking about conservative,
progressive politically.
You're talking about this ideaof protecting the story,
developing the story and whichleaning that you have.
So it's not like you're sayingI'm saying this, so I understand
what you're saying, like it'snot.
You're not saying you'reconservative, so all
conservative politicians orpeople politically conservative,
they they hold the story butthey're not progressives.
They try and build the storylike I think.

Speaker 3 (23:28):
So I think this is a political conversation right
well, I'm saying conservative,progressive, I guess in some
senses as a philosophicalworldview.
I I said like politicians havecompletely abandoned.
Like when we get into thepolitical realm now, we just
have to understand that people,people have tried to push out
any idea of they want aseparation of church and state,

(23:50):
and so when you try to push outanything higher than the state,
then there's nothing reallydefining words anymore.
The state will then try todefine what words and we get
really into a problematic placeif we look at world history,
when the state can just startdeciding arbitrarily to change
the definitions of words.
But that's what we're kind ofrunning into.
So someone will say, well, I'ma liberal, and some people say,

(24:10):
well, I'm a classic liberal andI'm a Reagan Republican.
Well, I'm a Trump Republican.
So we're getting into a placewhere you have to really be a
lot more precise and narrow down.
So when I'm saying conservativeand progressive, I mean more so
from kind of a departure pointof how risk adverse are you in
life and how are you navigatingthings?
And people, again, I think theywant to be a hero.

(24:33):
Let me say it like this Peoplewant to be significant.
But feeling significant andbeing significant are two
completely different things.
Feeling significant and beingsignificant are two completely
different things.
And institutions have somehowpostured themselves into like

(24:55):
symbolically making people feelsignificant when they've done
nothing.
They've done nothing and welive in a world that is driven
to some degree on on competenceand anyway I go go on a rant
with that.
But to your I mean sticking backto what you say.
Like when we look at thesestory arcs, 100% like David has

(25:16):
to establish, like before Davidnobody worshipped in the sense
of how he was Worship Godthrough music and dance in the
sense of what he was trying toestablish there there was no
temple being built.
So here's a guy the anti-herokind of stands outside the
establishment.
There's no covering.
It's me against the world in asecular kind of sense, like

(25:38):
Thomas Shelby.
I'm outside of the law, I'moutside of all these things or
I'm in opposition of thosethings, even when I'm seemingly
in those institutions.
He was a politician but he wastrying to undermine some things
but he ultimately was workingwith the state.
It's always gray withanti-heroes, but you understand
what I'm saying.
It's like like I'm going tostand outside the institution to

(26:01):
burn it to the ground and thenwe'll figure out what to build.
Later.
These guys are saying I'm nobody, I'm nothing, I'm broken.
And then I, I show competencyin some areas.
So david goes and kills goliath, but he has these character
flaws.
Jacob is a swindler, a con manuh, I'm not.
That's not how I view him, butyou could see that on a surface
level.
But somebody who intuitivelycan get what he wants from

(26:21):
people.
And then he ends up having awrestling match with God and it
was a stalemate.
We can't say he won because Godis God, but it's a stalemate in
the sense that he said I'm notgoing to let go, even though it
crippled him.
And then Moses with the burningbush on the mountain.
So you see people in theirbrokenness.

(26:41):
Moses was rebellious, he struckthe rock, he also complained.
They come into a one-to-one,firsthand encounter with the
creator of everything thatexists, and then something
shifts and then they get markedby that and then they co-labor
with something higher thanthemselves in a collective to
build something on top ofsomething.
There's something that'salready existing, but they're

(27:03):
building on top of it versusburn it to the ground.
And then we don't know whatwe're going to build, but we're
going to burn it to the groundand it doesn't play out well in
history to your point to burn itto the ground and it doesn't
play out well in history to yourpoint to burn it to the ground.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
And actually the great lie of the far left
liberal not trying to make itpolitical in any way because I
think if you're so conservativethat you can't make any
additions to a story, you end uptelling a story that makes no
sense anymore.
But if you're so radicallyopposed to a story you want to
kill it all, then actually,basically what you're doing is
you're constantly resigning eachgeneration to start again, as
opposed to building what wasgone before, which actually is

(27:42):
basically stupid, because surely, of everything that everyone's
created over the history ofhumanity, there must be
something good about what wasgone before, otherwise it
wouldn't be existing in the waythat we exist right now.
Right?
So I think that's reallyimportant and I think I think
one of the one of the thingswith the with, with the nature
of how judeo-christian mindsetworks, is that the legacy is

(28:03):
very important.
So so the idea that you leavean inheritance for your
children's children is a reallyimportant thing, but it also
goes around the other way.
It's that actually what you'redoing is is that you are
building on your forefathers, sothe idea of god being being the
God of Abraham, isaac and Jacobis that he is the God of the
forefathers.
So what they have built, you'renot going to try and tear it

(28:25):
down.
You might analyze it and youmight try and go hey, this
worked really well, but, dude,this didn't work so great.
Let's try and figure that bitout, and that's absolutely fine.
But the issue is that if youwant to build legacy, you can't
start again every generation.
You can't.
It's physically impossible todo that, and so what's happening
is is that we are trying tore-establish, especially gen z

(28:47):
in this moment.
Gen z in this moment, like weare trying to re-establish a, a
new starting point essentially,where we get to say whatever we
want to, we want to be whateverwe want to be, um, and we're
defined by me.
I'm defined by me.
I'm not defined by anythingthat's come before.
Screw that, burn it away.
I'm going to be the person Iwant to be.

(29:08):
But essentially, what we'redoing is I mean, this really is
post-modernism, but it's reallycome out of gen z, because
they're the first generation tobe parented by purely postmodern
parents, and what that's meantis that we have a bunch of
children running around theearth thinking that they're
adults, which they're not.
But also we have a bunch ofthis generation who, at a

(29:29):
foundational level, they reallybelieve that they're starting it
all over again, like they'restarting civilization.
But if you think about thisnarrative, they believe they're
starting civilization again,they're renewing civilization.
The institution is dying andthe civilization is being
re-bought through them andthrough their views and what
they can make of themselves.
I'm like guys, you, this, youwould never have even got here

(29:54):
with any level of education.
You would still be like 200years ago all of you would have
no teeth because there's nodentistry.
So I'm like there's, there's,there's just something really
knowledge that like there isthat there's no such thing as
starting again.
There isn't.
There is no such thing as that.
A eagle to an extent grappledwith this idea in the thesis

(30:16):
antithesis I'm bringing togetherfor the synthesis, but he made
that about humanity and aboutthe progression of humanity
towards utopia.
Humanism grew from Hegelianismbecause it was like actually
it's the corporate response ofhuman consciousness that creates
utopia.
We know that's not true.
Human consciousness screws itall up.
That's what it does, because webuild these stories in our head

(30:37):
that make no sense, or at leastmake limited sense, if we don't
combine them with a God storyor transcendent truth and
transcendent narrative.
And what's happened is that nowwe have a generation that are
saying we're going to restartcivilization, and I'm like you
can't, it's already started.
You need to get over it, youneed to find your place in that
civilization, and everygeneration has this battle, but
this generation, gen z, isstruggling massively with it,

(30:59):
and what I'd say is is that the,the, the attraction of the
judeo-christian ethics toanybody over the age of 40, for
example, um, or or actually nowmore and more to young people
who have grown up trying tofigure their lives out on their
own, having been givenabsolutely nothing to steward
their lives with, and they'rethinking, oh gosh, now because,

(31:20):
because I mean, it's anunbearable weight of
responsibility to have toestablish your own life with no
help as a child, like it'sridiculous.
And so what we're finding isnow is that there's a turning
point, a tide.
The tide's changing whereeveryone's like oh, actually,
maybe we should consider what'sgone before, which is why now,
jordan, jordan Peterson'sbanging about the Bible.
And when new atheist stadiumswere filled with new atheists 20

(31:43):
years ago, those exact same agegroup, particularly men, who
would have gone there andlaughed at the Bible and now go
to Jordan Peterson-like eventsand going maybe there's
something that we've missed,because actually we're doing a
great job at creatingcivilization.
Why?
Because you don't understandlegacy.
You don't understand the factthat your fathers and their

(32:05):
fathers and mothers have built afoundation that you get to
build upon.
Their ceiling is your floor,which means you get to build
higher and higher and higher.
But if you reject the platform,then you have to start again,
and it's impossible to startagain when you're young and it's
impossible to start againwithout significant pain which

(32:25):
you are trying to avoid at allcosts.
In other words, you are livingan unbelievably paradoxical life
if you believe that, and it'san impossible life to lead,
because what you want to do isis avoid the pain of starting
something, but be the starterand the establisher of a new
movement, a new um, new society.
It's impossible to do that.
You cannot do that you.

(32:45):
You either say I'm going to moveand I'm going to live in the
middle of a forest or on adesert island.
I'm going to establish mysociety.
I'm going to figure out how tomake fire.
Again, I'm going to figure outhow to chop wood.
I'm going gonna figure out howto make fire again.
I'm gonna figure out how tochop wood.
I'm gonna figure out how tocook.
I'm gonna figure out how to doall these things that for
centuries and millennia we'vebeen taught how to do that by
our forebears.
You either do it that way oryou accept whatever's gone

(33:08):
before that I disagree with.
It's been amazing to get me tothis point, and I'm gonna see
what is amazing about it andbuild on it for the future.
You don't have any other optionthan that, and anything else
that is told you is a freakinglie.

Speaker 3 (33:17):
Yeah well, people buy into, you know, when we're
talking about hyperindividualism, and then they buy
it like I can't tell you.
So where I come from, in like arural part of west virginia,
like it's it like it's like 40,like where I grew up, it's about
40 minutes or so to get to agrocery store.
From where I live You're anhour out from a hospital, and

(33:37):
where my grandparents were it'seven farther out, and so they're
kind of One dream that I hearof a lot of people have there is
they're prettyanti-establishment for the most
part people out there, so theirdream is to be off the grid.
A lot of people want to be offthe grid, they want to have
their house, but you will neverbe off the grid, you will never

(34:00):
be subtracted from thecollective, because if you have
a kid and he gets sick and youdon't know what to do, guess
what you're going to do?
You're going to go to thehospital.
You're not off the grid, youwant some autonomy and it gives
you again a feeling, gives youagain a feeling of significance,
a feeling of I'm doingsomething different, a feel.
It's a feeling we want thosefeelings to be there and I think

(34:21):
, like again, like film.
I mean, I'll admit this, likeI'd be guilty of this, like I
watch films like braveheart or Iwatch films like gladiator.
I watch films like that dude,like, even as a 36 year old man,
like if I watch the Patriotwith Mel Gibson, I like my
heart's like beating out of mychest and I'm like you.
Just there's something thatresonates so deeply with me with

(34:44):
like those epic kind of filmsof like living a life where
there was like sacrifice andpain and significance, and you
and you want that in one sideand you want that in one side.
But the state in westerncountries is trying to make
things always more and more andmore and more and more
comfortable, in a sense, andjust quickly let what?

Speaker 2 (35:03):
let me speak, yeah, because, yeah, but what you're
doing there is you're wrestlinggod, but the state is god right.
So so we have secularized oursociety, which means that the
anti-establishment part of that.
Because I live there I'm likehow can I not do what the
government says right, like so?
So I've got a big thing abouteducation overstepping.
I I'm like, don't, don't touchmy kid.

(35:24):
Like, don't finish my child.
I, I teach them.
You don't teach them.
If you teach them somethingthat I don't agree with, I'm
taking them out of your school.
It's that simple, and and likeand so that's a strong thing.
I've got young children.
I introduced them to topics.
That's my job.
I'm their dad, like I hope I'mjust gonna troll freak and I'm
not someone who's like, oh mygosh, I'm gonna like, like,
control my child their wholelife.

(35:45):
But I get to introduce them tothings like sexuality.
I get and conversations aboutsexuality.
I'm not gonna shelter them fromthe world that has different
views, but I'm not gonna letthem have a conversation about
two mums and two dads whenthey're four.
No way, it's never going tohappen on my watch, don't touch
my kit.
But actually there's somethingso powerful to know that that
this, this warring.

(36:05):
And this wrestling with theestablishment is because, deep
down, we all need to battle withgod.
All of us do and, and, and Idon't think you can be a
christian and believe in biggovernment.
I don't think, don't thinkthat's possible and I'm not
making this political, but Idon't think that you can have
the government and the educationsystem dictating to you what
family should look.
I don't think like that.

(36:27):
I don't think that's real,because I think the church and
god is what, and your individualrelationship with god and how,
his morals and his laws, that isactually how, how you build
family, how you educate.
And so for me, I'm like, when Ihear, like this whole patriot
thing and like the braveheartthing and like your husband
having a chest, I'm like, yes,because you're designed to do

(36:47):
that, because you're designed towrestle with God and come out
with a limp, you're designed forthat.
The thing is that often this ismy, my view.
Often we misrepresent thewrestling with god as being the
wrestling with the god of theage or the wrestling with the
authority of or governingstructure, and for me, like,
like, actually the, the deepintuition within me is to

(37:11):
wrestle with god and get myblessing.
But if I misinterpret that in asecular society where
government especially in myexperience of America, where
government plays such a hugerole in the minds of all
Americans and in Western Europe,but particularly in America
then I can sometimes misplace mydesire to wrestle with God like
Jacob did, and place it on.

(37:32):
I'm going to go off the gridand I'm like, hey, actually your
wrestle is with God, yourwrestle is with God.
I will not let you go until youbless me.
I will not let you go untilI've learned this lesson, until
I've walked through the limp.
You never trust a leader withouta limp.
It's impossible to trust thembecause they've never wrestled
with God, they've never beenable to say I want to know what

(37:54):
it is to live my life for thisdivine being.
And if we misinterpret ourinnate desire to wrestle with
God, to wrestle with otherpeople, to wrestle with
government, whatever it is, whatwe do is that we misdirect the
inner nature to wrestle with theLord and receive a blessing
from him, and we look either fora blessing from the government

(38:15):
or we look to eradicate thegovernment.
And there is something sopowerful about that story that
we've misrepresented in my view.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
So why do you think it is that people forget?
You mentioned it before about,well, you mentioned before like
gen z's coming in now andthey're forgetting.
They're taking it like we'regoing to recreate society.
It's like let me turn off theinternet, chat, gpt and
smartphones and see how far youget, because you don't know what
it's like to live analog.
There's like these youtubevideos where, like they hand

(38:45):
kids cassette tapes and they'relike what is this?
And they don't know.
And then they're telling themwell, there's music on it.
How many songs you think thisholds, you know they're the
coolest.
Or like they give them like theold 95, like pc, and like turn
this on, and they don't know howto turn on like a pc, they
don't know how to get connectedto, like dial up, internet and
stuff, even though that that'snot even really analog, that's
just the digital aid and itsinfancy, but like really.

(39:06):
But I guess my question is thisdo you think that we forget
because it's by design or what?
What is exact?
Because if you look at, forexample, we talked a lot about
Moses before, so let's juststart there.
Let's just look at this again.
In the beginning of Exodus it'stalking about Egypt and the
state of Egypt and Israel andEgypt.

(39:28):
And so we talked about Jacob.
So Jacob wrestles with God,gets his name changed to Israel
and then that becomes a peoplegroup, like all his descendants
are on that.
And Joseph, one of Jacob'sdescendants, ends up in Egypt at
some point.
His family sells him out, hisbrother's like, throw him in a
pit, sell him into slavery.
He ends up in prison but likehe's a really competent guy,

(39:49):
knows how to build relationships, gets into the freaking palace
with Pharaoh.
Pharaoh has this dream there'sseven fat cows and there's seven
skinny cows.
He doesn't know what it means,but he feels like something.
Intuitively, it's more thanjust a dream.
So Joseph says I believe thatthis is a warning from God.
There's going to come a time ofprosperity, seven years, like
the fat cow, but we're going tohave to prepare for seven years

(40:10):
of famine where there's notgoing to be enough food.
And in essence he saves his ownfamily who has sold him out,
reconciled them, but he saved anentire country of people who
aren't his by that planningright.
So he's getting this warningfrom God and he's planning for
the seven years of famine.
By the time we get to the storyof Moses.

(40:30):
It says the people of Israel,egypt got freaked out because
they had a kind of likesymbiotic relationship with
these people, but they got toomany Jews.
Egypt got freaked out becausethey had a kind of like
symbiotic relationship withthese people, but they got too
many Jews, they got too numerous.
So they decided to put theminto slavery and subjugate them
so they wouldn't be overthrownand it wouldn't disrupt their
way of life.
And by that point, when weenter into the story of Moses,

(40:50):
the Egyptians are then pullingthe herd, so to speak, so
they're gathering up all thebabies, tossing them into the
river to be eaten by crocodiles.
And Moses avoids this.
But as the story begins, it sayseverybody in the country had
forgotten Joseph and his name.
They forgot Abraham, theyforgot Isaac, they forgot Jacob

(41:16):
and, most of all, they forgotthe God of whom they were.
Because when you look throughscripture it's very interesting.
He says I'm the God of Abraham,I'm the God of Isaac, I'm the
God of Jacob, why?
Because each of thosenarratives kind of support a
different journey and Petersonhas its own kind of spiel on
that.
God of Abraham, the God whocalls you to adventure and
sacrifice.
The of jacob, the god who callsyou to to wrestle with him, so

(41:37):
to speak.
So people have forgotten allthose narratives and somehow
find themselves as slaves tosomething that's not them and
they're stuck in that and so,like when we talked about the,
the exodus story, it's like eveneven though they get delivered
out of the external tyranny ofslavery, it takes literally

(41:59):
generations before the internaltyranny.
And that forgetfulness has tobe removed from them and they
have to make their own personalexperiences, encounters with God
, to replace what they forgot.
And I think, like, anyways,let's pause there.
So, focusing purely on, I threwtoo much there.
Focusing purely, why do peopleforget?

(42:21):
Do people forget because that'sbecause this is happening over
and over and over?
Like, why, why do you feel likepeople forget?

Speaker 2 (42:30):
I think that every young person or every person
who's coming through in ageneration doesn't experience
pain.
And when you experience pain,you remember there's a corporate
consciousness around pain anddiscomfort.
That means that you, as yougrow older and you get more
responsibilities and you learnhow to fail well and get up on
the horse again that you feltwhen you do that.

(42:53):
Do that.
What happens is is that youlearn from the experience of
pain.
Pain is such a foundationalnarrative of the human existence
because it draws us back to god.
The reason why gen z is in suchdanger is because they have all
the ways possible to them toavoid pain and to avoid
discomfort.
They numb on social media.

(43:13):
I mean, our generation justmissed this by this much.
So I'm not judging here, I'mnot being condemned.
I'm not being condemning.
I'm saying like I'm 38, you're36, like we're millennials and
like we just missed this by 10years, 10, 15 years.
And now they numb on socialmedia.
They play call of duty till 4am.
They have online um access toum, to communities that they
never have to meet.

(43:33):
They agree.
Agree on everything.
They've got echo chambers.
They can watch pornographywhenever they want and have sex
with themselves.
They can hire people in at theage of 18 to come and do sexual
favors to them.
They live in a hyper-feministicsociety which nurtures them
particularly men, nurtures thembeyond belief, where they can

(43:54):
never fully cleave from theirmothers and therefore cleave to
a wife.
There are so many things thatare happening in Generation Z
where the great danger is thatthey are being protected and
nurtured away from pain and awayfrom discomfort.
When I was 18, I flew to Indiawith my brother and we lived
there for six months.
Dude, I learned, I learned morein that six months in the first

(44:16):
18 years of my life, because Ilearned that I had to cook in a
foreign country.
I had sickness and diarrhea andmy mom was not there for me.
I had people to support me.
I wasn't like left in a fieldto die by myself, but actually
like I had to figure that bitout 2 am in the morning, not
knowing ifi was ever going tostop being sick.
I was 18 years old.
It was me and my brother.

(44:37):
Listen, that's why we forget,because we don't encounter pain
Now.
We should not encounter paintoo early, because it sets our
trajectory to be defined by painif we encounter pain too early.
So when you think about traumaor you think about these things
that happen to young childrenand to teenagers.
It is absolutely unbelievablebecause you're so vulnerable in
those moments that it becomes adefinition of who you are and it

(44:58):
takes a long, long time tounravel that trauma.
But if you do not suffer, ifyou do not have trial, if you
don't have pain in your life,then you will constantly forget
what the sacrifice was for yourparents.
When you have children for thefirst time, you have a whole new
respect for your parentsbecause you're like mother

(45:19):
lovers.
I was like this you didn'tsleep, but you didn't throw me
through a window.
You know, when you're like,you're that close to your kid,
like, get out of my face, getout of my like.
In that moment you've got.
No, you're so tired, you're soangry, and then you realize your
dad went through that and stillbrought you up to be the way
you were.
And what happens is youexperience the pain of the

(45:41):
generations that have gonebefore you and suddenly you
respect them in a whole new way.
But if you avoid pain untilyou're 40, if you avoid pain
until even you're 30, you arescrewed, because basically what
it means is is that you havespent your whole life avoiding
the thing that will grow you up,and we wonder why we have a

(46:03):
million children in essexrunning around like lunatics,
believing they're going torestart the new establishment,
but have absolutely no idea whatis about to hit them in the
face.
And here's the deal If we don'texperience parents' comfort, if
we don't go through trial andhave victory over it, through
Jesus Christ especially, thenwhat we have just done is we

(46:26):
have short-circuited our abilityto mature and we have
short-circuited our ability toraise good children in the next
generation, because now we'regoing to have kids, having kids,
and then their kids will havekids and we'll be in a perpetual
state of childishness that willneed some rescuing at some
point.
Or what we'll do is we willresort, as we have done in the

(46:48):
course of history, to war.
We will resort, as we have donein history, where children are
given too much power and toomuch choice, where we will end
up destroying each other, andactually the only solution to
that is a belief in thetranscendent truth and a belief
in the incarnation of atranscendent truth.
That means that we can actuallyimitate and become like it and
have a Holy Spirit within us tosupernaturally empower us to

(47:09):
become like the incarnation ofthe transcendent truth.
The only answer is Christianity, and we've rejected it.
We must bring it it back, so alot to unpack there.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
Uh, when you were talking, one of the things that
kind of came up no, it's goodman.
So one of the things you cameup like specifically because we
just keep getting stuck in thisnarrative, but specifically so I
I alluded, you know that mosesis is bringing these people out
of egypt.
They're in, they're in thedesert.
God's provided for themsupernaturally.
There's several generations.
That kind of happen here andthere does come a point where

(47:41):
they can enter into somethingthat's going to make their lives
better.
They're going to go into a landof promise, they're going to go
into a land where it's fertileand blah, blah, blah, blah.
They can enter into that, butthey actually don't get to do
that initially because their dad.
There comes a section of thestory where the dads have a
responsibility to make sure thattheir sons are circumcised.

(48:02):
Okay, and they don't do that.
So what ends up happening isJoshua and some helpers have to
line everybody up as grown menand they have to circumcise him.
I was circumcised, tmi.
What's american live?
Americans circumcise like it'snot good.
So we'll share that, all right,we're good, okay, okay.

(48:23):
So we have like people on bothsides of the fence here.
So anyways, you know disclaimerI don't remember being
circumcised.
I don't know if that waspainful or not, but I don't.
It's not in my memory becauseit happened when I was like a
week old or something like that.
Now I've had people in myfamily who didn't get
circumcised and they had to getcircumcised when they were 12,
13, 14.
And when I was in Germanythey're strictly against that

(48:45):
and I probably met maybe like 10or 15 people I was there who
had to get circumcised as 20 and30 year old men, men, and I
will spare you guys the gorydetails of, like, the guy who
did my tattoos in germany, ofwhat happened to him, uh, when
he, when he, when that happened.
But in short, what you'resaying to him is like there is a
period of time where you'resupposed to be dealing with

(49:08):
certain issues and if you're notdealing with those issues in
that period of time, the longerthat it gets pulled out, it's
going to become more and moreand more painful, more memorable
for you to be able to deal withthat More and more and more you
will try to avoid it, becausethe longer you avoid it for the
more it's important to avoid thepain, because you know how much

(49:29):
it's going to hurt.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
You didn't do it earlier, and I mean that's
intuitive, right?
We do.
We do this all the time.
We're like and I should reallyhave gone to the gym, but it's
going to really hurt, so I'll gonext week and then you get
really fat and you're like man,I've got to go to the gym and
you don't go the week after thatand you're like man it's gonna.

Speaker 3 (49:45):
And then you turn into brent, and then you turn
into brendan, brendan, frazierand the whale and you're on,
you're, you're on tlc, you're onTLC, it's my 600 pound life.
And then that that doctor has afunny accent.
You're saying I don't know ifyou ever seen that one episode.
I always see shorts of thatpops up and she's like, yeah,
I'm just really hungry right now.

(50:06):
And he's like you've ate enoughfor the last 40 years.
You could eat, not for threeyears and you'd be okay, trust,
trust me, you've ate enough.
Anyways, not ripping anybodythere.
But there's this period of timewhere pain, suffering, failure,
rejection, those are all shameand guilt.
I'll say this Sometimes in achurch we come from streams of

(50:28):
faith where people are reallyadamantly against shame and
guilt.
Living from a place of shameand guilt, shame is I feel bad
about who I am, and guilt is Ifeel bad about what I've done.
That's like a veryoversimplified.
And why we don't want to livefrom that place is because it
will pervert and distort how ourimage of ourselves, but also
where we're living from.
But shame and guilt are naturalfeelings.

(50:50):
They are feelings that wouldprovoke you or unction you on to
put yourself into a.
You know, if someone threw poopin my face I wouldn't like walk
around.
But yeah, it's fine, like theway it is, I would go and wash
my face off.
I would go and like cleansemyself of, you know, poop being
blown in my face.
And you alluded like the lasttime we talked about we we ended

(51:11):
the conversation with a rite ofpassage and the significance of
that.
That has been kind of like goneby, the, by the wayside, and
when people have taken differentstabs at that of like a, of a
watered down version of it, likeI've heard.
I've heard Jewish people onsocial media talk about like how
bar mitzvahs have just becamethis big thing.
It's just a big party where youget money from Elvis and people

(51:34):
.
But the actual significance ofit because in the past you're
actually a man, when thathappens you can get married.
Generally, people take over thetrades of their father.
If my dad's a shoemaker or ifhe's a fisherman or if he's a
carpenter, I would then bestepping into a role of
responsibility within his trade.
If I go to his suppliers and Isay, hey, my dad Tim needs X, y

(52:02):
and Z.
It would be as if I'm anemissary, or as if my dad is
standing there.
That's the kind of respect thatI've taken on in the community,
not figuratively, but literally.
And so there is this thing inWestern culture where and I
think it's a marketing ploy to adegree is people are trying to
extend out adolescence and beinga kid.
Parents are kind ofconditioning themselves to think

(52:22):
, oh, I want to preserve yourinnocence and let you just be a
kid, but being a kid, there is abuffer period of that of like,
yes, you go role play and youhave fun and you integrate into
your social group, but then youalso figure out what's my role
within my family and society atlarge and I take on
responsibility and I come upagainst some of those things

(52:42):
that you're talking about interms like failure, rejection,
etc.
And there's definitely likegood no, no I was just saying.

Speaker 2 (52:49):
What's so crazy about that to me is is that we're
really willing to introduce ourchildren to concepts around
sexuality and choice about whoit's all stuff.
But we're really willing tointroduce our children to
concepts around sexuality andchoice about who it sort of
stuff, but we're, yeah, being tointroduce them to chores or
we're not willing to introducethem to growing up or being a
big sister or or putting toomuch pressure on them in terms
of the family unit, and I'm likeit's just so counterintuitive.

(53:10):
It's like we want our kids togrow up really fast in some
areas that are really bad forthem and slow them down growing
up in some areas that are reallygood for them.
And it's all about there is notranscendent truth and there is
no pain that you can learnthrough to get back to the
transcendent truth.
I mean, it is so, bro.
It is so counterintuitive.
Can I give you a really goodexample, just real quick?

(53:30):
Is that all right?
Yeah, go for it.
Sorry, I feel like I'm talkinga lot.
This one you can talk later.
You're good, you're good.
What's really interesting is soI run our student community.
I talk so much to people aboutdating and relationships and I
don't know if you know this, butthere's all these different
stages before you becomesomeone's girlfriend or

(53:51):
boyfriend.
Like you chat first, likeyou're messaging and you can
message lots of different people, and then you're dating and you
can date them for as long asyou want and then they become
your girlfriend.
It's all this.
It's all these really weirdthings, and what I say to all my
guys is I'm like guys, listen,what you're doing is is that
you're trying to avoid pain.
That's what you're doing here.
Like you're putting defensemechanisms in place so that you

(54:15):
don't have to take a risk on agirl.
I'm talking to the dudes here,and the girls do this as well,
and so I mean, this is myperspective.
But I'm like, when I got with mywife, when she was then my
girlfriend, I was 21.
She was 18.
We spent time in a grouptogether because we hung out
together, we were clubbingtogether, like with a group of
us Christian friends, all therest of it.
And after a month I was like oh, I quite like her, let's see if

(54:41):
she likes me.
I said, hey, um, I'm going awayto university for a year.
But you know, like, I'm really,I really like you.
Like why don't we give this ago?
Uh, will you be my girlfriend?
She said yes, I kissed her andit was done.
Four years later we got engagedand one year later we got
married.
I'm like it was really thatsimple and it's because we
committed, we were like okay, sonow you're like I'm not dating,
like when you date someone,they are your girlfriend.
That's the whole point of it.
So you're not.
You're not just like tryingthem out anymore, you're making

(55:02):
a commitment.
You're a man.
Pursue your woman, pursue themhard.
That's what you've got to do.
And and I'm like man,everything before that point to
me at least, seems like adefense mechanism about what.
What if I commit and I get hurt.
But that's because we're men upto like.
Be these really wimpy, likenon-committal people trying to

(55:23):
figure out everything about awoman or before they even go, go
anywhere near her to be in arelationship.
You can't build a relationshipor thing.
You have to build a commitment.
And so for me, I'm walkingpeople through this journey all
the time.
We said 18 and 25 and they'relike I don't know how to choose.
There's so many people.
What if I get the wrong one?
I'm chatting to this girl andshe's like this I'm chatting to

(55:44):
this girl, she's like this I'mlike, shut up, stop being stupid
.
Like just choose someone, takea risk and if it doesn't work
out, you've learned from it.
And then you learn in thatprocess who you go for next time
.
Be a man, do something withyour life.
But we're like nurturing thesekids into stupidity.
Mate, it gets me so angry.

Speaker 3 (56:05):
Well, let me play like another, like departure
point for you, okay.
So these and I can identify alittle bit of this.
So so I'm not, like, by thegrace of God, I did not grow up
in a time where there was an appwhere, basically, you can just
swipe and find the mostattractive people in a radius
and, like, try to convince themto come have sex with you.

(56:27):
Like, by the grace of God, Idid not grow in that time when I
want to go out and go find,like when I was living in that
period of my life and that'swhat I was about, you know,
there was a.
You had to be rejected severaltimes face to face.
And my brother he's passed now,but he was ruthless with this
man.
I remember I was in a bar withhim one time.

(56:48):
He went up to a girl, put hisarm around around her and say,
hey, I and he was like you hadthis real redneck boy.
Hey, how you doing?
And she said, ew, gross, getaway from me.
And then he turned around tothe girl, put his right side,
put his arm around her, said,hey, how you doing?
And she said that's my cousin,you're disgusting.
He's like you guys have a goodevening and he like walked away

(57:10):
and did it again like it wasjust like rap.
It was a numbers game for himof like I'm just like going from
woman to woman, woman.
So I think like part of it nowis there is an evolved form of
hookup culture that has likelike kind of taken over of.
First of all, I need to know ifyou're gonna, like I'm gonna
sexually attract you and you'regonna gratify me sexually.

(57:31):
That's it and like what, likethat's like all those steps
before is what I kind of hearpeople going through with people
.
So there's like that element ofit.
But then when we get to thepoint which you know, obviously
this is, you know, we could talka lot about that.
But then there's this otherelement of when you talk about
commitment and like being braveand like take commitment

(57:51):
Realistically, in the West menare much more vulnerable
financially to things notworking out than women are.
And I knew people even ingermany it was very uncommon for
people to get married in their20s like people like I knew
people.
They were together for eightyears, they had three children
together and I'm like, are youguys ever gonna get married?

(58:12):
They're like whoa, whoa, that'sa.
That's a big commitment there,buddy, like pump the brakes.
I'm like, what are you on aboutgoing to get married?
They're like whoa, whoa, that'sa big commitment there, buddy,
like pump the brakes.
I'm like, what are you on about?
Like, my mind works differentlyIf I married somebody, like just
from a secular worldview.
If I marry somebody, it's like,oh, this is not good, I leave
them.
It's like pretty much doneoutside the time that I've
invested in that If I have achild with somebody, I am
tethered to that person for therest of my life.

(58:34):
And, what's worse, I'm tetheredto whoever they pick to be
around and that I have no powerin deciding and that person is
going to be a pseudo father orstepfather to my child.
And that was like a nightmarefor me.
So I'm just like I don't knowhow y'all like navigate this.
But then I talked with guys Igot.

(58:56):
I knew a guy he had inGermanyany.
It's quite hard to save money,it's quite hard to build wealth
like considerably harder thanthe us.
And I knew a guy who worked hisbutt off.
He had two investmentproperties.
Um, he's in his 30s, been withhis girlfriend for years.
They lived together.
He, he's like dude, I love her.
She's like the mother of mychildren, blah, blah, blah blah.
She won't have kids with meuntil I marry her.
She was turkish, she was germanand and I love her.

(59:17):
And so I was like cool, likemarry her man, what's going on?
He's like I don't ever thinkthat something would happen, but
because of the way the courtsystem is, if we divorce she'll
just take those two propertiesor like a big chunk of those
prop that she had zero effortand energy to invest in.
And so then you get into thisgamut of like I've heard people
talk about, like in Gen Z, likea lot of people will to some

(59:40):
degree talk if they have likeassets, like that.
They talk about prenuptialagreements, which basically, you
are getting ready for yourdivorce before you ever get
married.
And one thing that I gotconvicted about like cause I
went through a whole myrelationship with sex and my
relationship with women was very, very distorted there and I
could point to a lot of thingsthat happened throughout my life

(01:00:01):
and childhood, but I just takepersonal responsibility for a
lot of it.
But anyways, when I like metthe Lord, I was like this needs
that was at the forefront of mymind.
The way that I view women hasto change.
The way that I view sex has tochange.
It's off, it's wrong.
I objectify women, I use womento gratify me, and it needs to

(01:00:22):
change.
And when we talk abouttransformation and why God is
often referred to as fire, it'sbecause if you shove things in
fire, there are certain thingsthat will just burn up in fire
and they're gone.
They become ash and they blowaway in the wind.
There's other things that youshove into fire and it
withstands fire and when itwithstands that fire, the things

(01:00:43):
that will come to the surfacethat don't need to be there and
get off.
But the thing that withstandsfire generally is a precious
metal or a metal that you canuse in engineering or something
that's useful.
But that that's the cost,that's the trade-off, that's the
sacrifices.
If you want to be better, yougot to put yourself in in fire
and be burned.
And being burnt is like beingmarked.

(01:01:05):
It's like what we're talkingabout.
It's not, it's not nice.
It's like sticking your noseonto a grindstone as it's
turning and like knowing thatI'm going to be better for this
and and one of the things thatthat happened out of that and I
was like mon trick with prayers,dude, I'd be like God changed
the way that I see women, likehelp me see them Like my sister
and my mother and my familymember, whatever, like curb this

(01:01:28):
thing inside of me.
And there came a point Iremember where there was a girl
who I met, her like I think itwas in Mozambique.
So I met this girl.
I was there in this school andthere was probably 800 people
from all over the world andthere was this girl.
I was in groups of women.
This time God pretty muchredeemed my mind at that point.
I just didn't even thinkanything about this anymore.

(01:01:48):
But this girl came to me andshe's like I was raped by my
stepdad and I just created apattern where somehow I was
getting abused by men throughoutmy life and a lot of when guys
come up to me and they talk tome or they put their arm around
me or something, I feel thatdisgusting, feeling like what I
felt when I was being raped andI just can't stand to be around

(01:02:08):
men.
But she's like I just want tolet you know that when I'm
around you, I just feel likelike you're just a brother, like
there's no, like ulteriormotive here.
This is completely platonic andlike I just feel like god's
kind of redeeming something inme with like men, because I just
can't even be around men at all.
And this is somebody who justlike was kind of in the

(01:02:29):
peripheral, wasn't anybody who Iwas like pursuing or somebody
who I was like saying, hey,we're, we're great friends, but
she I remember her saying thatand then like it was just me
getting kind of sucker punchedof like oh, like there's this
thing that I recognize thathappened inside of me internally
, but now like there's aresidual effect on that that can
actually positively impact thatgirl, because that girl went

(01:02:50):
off and like less than a yearand a half later, got married, a
family.
This is somebody who couldn'tbe touched by men and I was
eight parts indirectly, not me,but what God did to me was a
part of her redemption story.
Same thing happened when I wasin California, in Reading.
I had another experience likethat.
So when we want to pretend thatthe things that we're doing are

(01:03:11):
victimless crimes, that thisisn't hurting anybody, you not
tethering your identity and whoyou are to an eternal departure
point and destination uh,because we talked about this
before, like people want totether their identity.
Other thing when you don't dothat, you're never calling
yourself to something higher,you're never going to transcend.
And I'll tell you like pointblank to anybody listen to this

(01:03:32):
I would never be able to be in amarriage the way that I was.
I was so.
Part of the reason that was Iwas so damaged was from women.
I did get damaged by women.
I got cheated on things.
So I just like I just thoughtthat all women were dirt bags
and like so I was like I'm justgoing to do whatever I, whatever
I want, and there's no way Iwould have been able to sustain

(01:03:53):
a marriage.
There's no way that I wouldhave been able to father.
Now I have a daughter and now,like you know all the things
that you're saying aboutprotecting her and like who's
going to talk to her and who'sgoing to introduce ideas to her.
But yeah, I guess that's.
That's the end of my in myspiel.
If you think, like where you'reat right now is okay and you
you're not called to transcend.
In the same way that arighteous man will leave an

(01:04:14):
inheritance for his children'schildren, a unrighteous man will
leave an inheritance for hischildren's children.
You will impact generationsthat you'll never live to see.
Referencing ruff's little clonegladiator, what we do in life
echoes through eternity.
So if you don't think that it'sgoing to have some impact,
you're fooling yourself andyou're putting the burden on

(01:04:35):
other people's kids andgrandkids.
To fix your kids and grandkidsbecause you didn't do the work
now, and for some people theyhave parents who, like, are too
too far, like, so I'll.
I'll give you one quick exampleof a story, because you said
this and and I said a lot there,and I'll let you kind of
example of a story because yousaid this and I said a lot there

(01:04:56):
and I'll let you kind of goback.
But you were talking about notbeing introduced to pain,
rejection, failure, and it kindof cripples you in some sense.
This is going to sound funny tosome people.
When I was a kid it was reallyin the time where they started
giving trophies to everybody forparticipation, so that was
happening.
I was coming into that.
I played for a little leaguebaseball team who are newark

(01:05:17):
brave shout out newark braves,west virginia.
Okay.
So I played for a little littlebaseball team.
County is the smallest countyin west virginia.
This is nothing like you know,auspicious, but I played for
this little team.
We were.
We were notoriously had thisrivalry with the.
We were out in the country.
There's this baseball team inthe town called the tigers and

(01:05:38):
we had this rivalry with them.
We were always generally thebest two teams and it would.
It would always be a shootoutin the end, like we would have
to play multiple games.
And the coach of our team saidif you guys win the championship
every year, I'll rent it a bigbus.
And he took us to king's island, paid for everything.
He paid for the whole thing.
Okay, probably our parents paidtoo, but he made it out like he

(01:06:00):
paid for everything, butanyways.
So we knew if we win thechampionship, we're going to
king's island.
So I remember the one year wewon, it went to king's island,
pumped on it.
Kids, you know, kids get older,so they stopped playing.
So the the team was.
You know I was in a moreserious role.
I was pitching, I was catching,I was playing infield, all that

(01:06:20):
and we lost the last game.
It was always super tight, butwe lost the game.
And people are crying.
We're like seven, eight yearsold.
Whatever.
We're crying, we don't get togo to Kings Island Poopy pants
syndrome.
Then they took us to king'sisland anyways.
Dude, I'm not trying to bewhatever to you parents and

(01:06:41):
whoever made that decision, butyou really messed me up.
Wait, because you you instilledinside like it was.
It had the adverse.
I wasn't happy about it, likegenuinely in my heart of hearts
I was like all the work that Idid doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter, like that'swhat I thought, it's like it
doesn't matter.
And I remember like that ittainted baseball with me.

(01:07:03):
I couldn't play baseballanymore.
I stopped playing baseballafter that.
I went and played football,american football, and in
american football I ate crap.
For a long time our team waslike zero and 10.
I don't know anybody's outthere Can you play football for
four years and go zero?
Now it was like extreme.
It was like zero and 10 andlike two and something, three

(01:07:25):
and something.
I went from being 128 pounds tobeing 210 pounds.
I lifted weights religiouslyand I just believed in my head
If I just get huge and fast andI smash people as hard as I can,
something has to break.
And even if it doesn't, thisfeels pretty good.
And then my senior year ofschool, we went six and four.
It was the first winning seasonin 20 something years or

(01:07:47):
something, 15 years, somethinglike that.
His first winning season.
And then we popped the membrane.
The people who came after uswent to the third round of the
playoffs and then we popped themembrane.
The people who came after uswent to, like the third round of
the playoffs, the one rightbelow the state championship.
It's like putting in that workso I don't get any world
champion belt, I don't get anylike recognition.
Nobody will remember that ever.
But those two experiencesinstilled something so deep

(01:08:09):
inside of me of like you grindin the secret place, you're
grinding, nobody sees it, nobodysees, it sees it.
You're getting ridiculed yearafter year after year.
You guys suck, you lost 60 tonothing.
You suck and you're just like Idon't, you're just grinding,
grinding, grinding.
And then you pop the membraneand, irregardless of the record,
like you knew, like you, thework you put in, the work that

(01:08:30):
was done inside of you and yourcharacter is more substantial
than like the record in thatpoint.
But it comes at the cost ofdignity, it comes at the cost of
pain, it comes at the cost offailure, it comes to the cost of
rejection.
It comes to the cost ofsuffering injuries, those kind
of things.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
Sports, it's a great metaphor for for life in so many
ways, but anyways, I threw aton at you there yeah, yeah, and
I just want to say that that'swhy christianity, the great hero
, is jesus christ, not becausehe didn't experience pain or he
was, he was, he's not.
He's not the hero because he isthis great looking, overcomer
warrior, he's the he's, he's theultimate hero of all creation

(01:09:07):
because he experienced the worstpain you could imagine,
overcame.
That that's why he's the heroand I think, like just going
back to that, that point aboutlike the little league and go
going to king's island, this is,this is this is tv program that
our kids want to call bluey andum, and there's this episode on
bluey called pass the parcel,right, and yeah, basically, have
you seen this?

(01:09:27):
Yeah, and so basically, yeah,the way that they do pass the
parcel for the kids is thateveryone gets a little prize and
they pass the parcel and and hedoes it.
His name is pat.
He's an australian guy namedpat who's worried about raising
a nation of squibs, you know,and, and what he, what he does
is we're gonna, we're playing itwith the right way, that with
the right rules, where there'sonly one massive prize in the

(01:09:48):
middle.
You turn away so you don't knowwho's getting the prize.
You stop the music and whoevergets it, even if you get it
three times in a row.
That's just what it is.
Life ain't fair.
You get what you get.
And what's really interestingabout this narrative that's
built in this seven minutegloomy episode is that the kids
gradually get to celebrate theperson.
That's what.
They start off being miserablethat they didn't, or like crying

(01:10:09):
to their parents that theydidn't get the prize, the little
sweet or the little bracelet orwhatever, but eventually, the
fourth and the fifth time theydo it.
What happens is is that theycelebrate.
They get way better at losingand they celebrate this amazing
massive prize in the middle forthe person that wins it.
And I'm like such a goodepisode, like just a powerful
episode of the, of the, the, thenarration of what it is to

(01:10:31):
experience pain well, be lovedthrough it, but actually begin
to celebrate those that arevictorious and know your victory
is around the corner.
And even if you never get that,you get to celebrate alongside
somewhere else.
And that's the nature oftranscendent truth, that's the
nature of being able tocelebrate something outside of
yourself that you don'texperience.
That's not defined by you goingall, looping, all the way back.

(01:10:53):
This for the last.
We're going to say then,because I've got run but I'm
looping all the way back to therelationship stuff.
The transcendent truth thatyou're tethering yourself to for
all relationships is theconcept of marriage.
That's what that transcendenttruth is and and and like this
thing about you know, likeprenups and like what if she
gets the house and what, whocares?
Like I know I say that havinghaving a wife that I trust

(01:11:15):
implicitly, yeah, and so Iunderstand that like that isn't,
that isn't necessarily like a.
That's a journey that I've beenon and it's not everyone's
journey and I completely get it.
But you know what?
You took a risk on a woman andthey screwed you over, or maybe
you made a massive mistake.
Who cares?
Learn and grow.
You know you lost two houses.
Learn and grow.
Go get them back.

(01:11:36):
Go and do it.
You know I'm like you can't letsomething, if something that
hasn't yet happened, define yourrisk taking.
You can't do it.
You'll forever be paralyzed bysomething that you're not in
control of, and I understandthat it's a risk.
You have to take the risk, buthere's the deal.
The reason why that marriage isthe transcendent truth that you
tether yourself to is because inmarriage, it doesn't matter

(01:11:57):
what happens, you stay together,and I'm not saying like you
stay together for the kids orwhatever it is.
You work through your crap andyou stay together because both
of you is willing to go throughthe thing that is painful to you
to prioritize the relationship.
To go through the thing that ispainful to you, to prioritize
the relationship.
You only find that transcendenttruth in Christianity.

(01:12:18):
You don't find it anywhere else, any other religion, any other
circumstance or civilization.
The marriage, the doctrine ofmarriage, the sacrament of
marriage is so foundationalbecause it says this that I
choose you and because I'vechosen you.
God has also been part of thisrelationship, and the one that
is holding us together is notsomehow that we try really,

(01:12:41):
really hard to love each other.
Well, it's because we believethat we are put together and
held together by a transcendenttruth that both of us are
committed to.
Now, maybe your wife, yourhusband, decides that they're no
longer going to be part of thatstory.
Man, that is unbelievablypainful and I'm never trying to
minimize it, but listen to me.

(01:13:07):
You grow through that situationand you overcome it and you
become the person you werealways called to be, whether you
have the wife alongside or thehusband alongside or not, and
there is always a redemptionstory, husband alongside or not,
and there is always aredemption story.
Our lives cannot be defined inanything by the things that have
not yet happened.
They must be defined by thetranscendent truth that we've
been given to have something toaim for.
Otherwise, all we will ever dois limit what we're able to

(01:13:30):
achieve in life through thesupernatural power of grace, and
what we'll do is we'll limitwhat we can achieve to what we
can strive towards.
And here's the deal you mightlose everything.
Get up again and go again.
Be a hero.
The hero doesn't get it all.
The hero experiences pain anddeath and hardship and overcomes
it and gets up and crawlsforward and brings people with

(01:13:53):
them.
You want a leader in your life.
They're the people that crawl.
They're the people that run thefastest, the people that
experience so much pain in theirlife.
They crawl forward.
That's the hero you want tofollow and that's the hero you
want to be.
And in marriage, that's thehero you want to be.
You want to be the one thatlays your life so low in
humility that you actually endup being the person that
everyone wants to follow,including your wife, that's what

(01:14:15):
you want to be.
And for me I'm like, yeah, dude,it's hard.
The courts are set up forjustice and equality and I
completely get that.
And yeah, maybe your wife mightget two houses that she never
worked for, maybe, but who cares, it's this big in the grand
scheme of things.
At least you try, at least youwent for transcendent truth, at

(01:14:36):
least you tethered yourself tosomething far greater than
yourself.
And if you can turn around andlook at yourself in the mirror
and say I did everything that Icould and even though I made the
mistake and even though I gotcheated on, even though I got
screwed, I tried.
And God, I trust you, you justwon Full stop Because you
conquered pain.
It you just won full stopbecause you conquered pain.
It's way easier to say than itis to ever achieve and do, but

(01:14:58):
we have to aim somewhere.
We have to aim at transcendentutopia.
We must, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:15:03):
Like and I will wrap up because I need to go, but
there is definitely a weight,there's that attention of I want
to pick some, I want to makethe right choice.
So there's like a gravity tothat that this is going to
impact, you know, my lifeforever.
Uh, there are like too manypeople obviously enter into

(01:15:23):
marriage who, like shouldn't bemarried.
If we have like a six, fifty,sixty, some percent divorce rate
across the board, like not, itdoesn't matter if you're
christian, non-christian,whatever, like across the board.

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
That's kind of like because that's because marriage
is no longer what thetranscendent marriage should.
The idea of it is no longerthat.

Speaker 3 (01:15:38):
Yeah Well, people have abandoned that, like in the
whole progressive conservativewhatever.
We've abandoned traditional vowsand the traditional vows go
along the lines of for better orfor worse, for sickness and
health, richer or poorer, I'mgoing to sacrifice for you and,
no matter what, we're going tobe together and I'm saying that

(01:16:00):
in front of each other.
I'm saying that in front of ourfriends and our family and our
community, who we're pluggedinto, and I'm saying that in
front of the creator of theuniverse.
And I'm asking for the grace tobe able to do that, because
there'll be some times where Iwant to run away from this, like
my head is on fire because it'sso hard, and anybody who tells
you it's not hard, they'remisleading you completely.

(01:16:21):
It's incredibly hard andthere's things that you as an
individual person, like peoplewho are real spiritual, you go
to Bali and you throw yournegative emotions into a volcano
and you think that you'retranscended, trying being
married to somebody who younever can leave.
You've made the choice I'mnever gonna leave.
We're gonna make this work, nomatter what.
Then having kids with thatperson, then trying to navigate

(01:16:44):
holidays with that person'sfamily and your person's family
or your family.
Well, your children are sick andhospitals and everything like
that and financial stress andand all that.
That's that's going tocultivate some significant
character growth.
That's going to cultivate somesignificant spiritual growth.
And you think that you'veprocessed through your trauma.

(01:17:05):
You think that you processthrough your deficiencies.
These will raise all thosedeficiencies to the surface and
throw them in your face.
You gotta deal with the uglyand the ugly will come up you
have to do it in public, infront of your wife.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
So, yes, and husband, yeah, because you're one, now
he's dude.
I can't explain to you how, how, how vital that that, that that
marriage message, is torelationships and family yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:17:32):
Well, again like this is something I got convicted of
a long time ago.
I was driving in the car bymyself and God speaks to me,
sometimes through vision,sometimes through spontaneous
thoughts.
Thought pops into my head.
Holy Spirit said you don't wanta wife, you want a slave.
He asked me first.
He's like do you want a wife?
I said yeah, I want a wife.
I was like 23, 20, I don't know24.
He said you don't want a wife,you want a slave.
I'm like what do you mean?

(01:17:52):
And he said slaves are definedby their productivity and what
they can contribute, and that'swhere their value is derived
from.
And that's how you look atwomen.
You look at how is my lifegoing to look with this woman
and it's something that I'mgoing to add into my life?
And you're dealing in plusesand minuses.
And so you don't want a wife,you want slave.

(01:18:13):
And I had to repent there.
I had to accept that I, Ididn't want a wife, I want a
slave.
And I think many people look atrelationships in that lens as a
departure point.
Well, there's a list of plusand minuses and there's a list
of check marks and pros and consand those kind of things and
there is a relevancy of corevalues and holding the same core

(01:18:35):
values with somebody and that'sgoing to make life and having
kids together and those thingssimpler for sure.
But if you're measuring peopleby that, that you're not
co-laboring a person, you're notpartners.
One person is always going tobe a slave to the other person
and when that person can'tcontribute, then we just expel

(01:18:55):
them from our lives and somesome relationships are are from
founded on these kind ofprinciples.
The archetype where we see menthey have tons of money, they're
older, and then they get withsomebody who has zero life
experience.
They're like 19, 20 years old,beautiful girl and their kind of
relationship is is going towork on a kind of transactional

(01:19:18):
basis of like this is, this iswhat I'm, what I'm in it for.
You're providing me with acertain quality of life and
you're providing me thecompanionship of somebody who's
stunningly beautiful and, uh, Ithink that's a good place to
wrap up.
Hopped off, he had to go bewith his family.
We ran over a little bit.

(01:19:38):
But appreciate Tim, appreciatethe time.

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
All right, that's a wrap for today's episode.
Huge thank you to the steadfastand slightly unpredictable Tim
Churchward for once againgracing us with his wisdom and
challenged us to look at lifedifferently.
If what Tim shared with youtoday resonated with you, I
can't recommend enough that youcheck out his School of
Transformation atchromachurchcom.

(01:20:05):
It's a life-changing programand it's designed to help you
grow, to heal and to step intoyour purpose.
You can find all the detailsfor that online and register to
this school.
They do it online so you don'thave to be there in person.
There's a link in the podcastdescription to make it really
easy for you.

(01:20:26):
Okay seriously take a moment,explore it.
School of Transformation.
It's impacting lives in a bigway and you don't wanna miss out
on a chance to be part of that.
Okay, and before we go, just aquick reminder.
If you haven't already, makesure you subscribe to this
podcast, on whatever platformyou listen to podcasts Spotify,
apple, whatever I'm registeredon all of them so that way

(01:20:48):
you're never going to miss onepisode and I'm excited to share
.
By popular demand, we're goingto be rolling out video content.
A lot of people are hitting meup.
Video is king.
I understand that.
It just adds another layer.
Post-editing sucks the life outof my body, but we'll start
uploading full episodes andshorts on YouTube and be sure to

(01:21:11):
check us out there too.
So thanks for tuning in.
I'll catch you next time.
Stay curious, stay grounded andlet's keep this conversation
going.
Cheers.

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