Rethinking Identity Faith and Social Justice

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey folks, welcome back to the map.
I got a good one for you today.
There's a returning guest and adear friend of mine, tim
Churchward.
For those of you who don't know, tim's a pretty fascinating guy
.
He's got a background inhistory, in philosophy.
He has a master's degree insocial work and psychodynamics.
He spent years of his life inthe UK as a social worker and a

(00:22):
senior manager for Looked AfterChildren, working with at-risk
youths and young offenders.
These days he's pastoring achurch in Leicester called
Chroma Church, where he leads aninternational school of
ministry.
And on top of all that he's afamily man.
He has three beautiful kids,wonderful wife.
And today we dive into somepretty heavy topics.

(00:44):
We start about thought policing.
We talk a little bit about thecase with Tommy Robinson and how
small incremental changes inlaws and policies end up
reshaping societies in ways wewouldn't really anticipate or
expect on the onset.
And from there we dive into adeeper conversation about
identity.
And Tim breaks down this ideafrom a biblical angle, talking
about how our true identity isrooted in being children of God,

(01:07):
rather than any cultural orphysical labels that we put on
ourselves or that the world putson us, and we tackle what
forgiveness means, whatself-sacrifice means and the
core of the Christian responseto ideas of oppression and
actual oppression.
And then we take a closer lookat the impact of culture,
community and how socialmovements sometimes stray away

(01:28):
from the original mission and wetalk about the justice and
reconciliation aspect of thatand how it's going to balance
out society and how things gooff track when these movements
start to actually become thevery thing that they're against
and what they stand against.
We talk a little bit aboutparenting and our techniques
there and how we teach kids thedifference between consequence
and punishment, the mindset offocus on redemption versus just

(01:52):
punishment.
So this one goes deep Pain,suffering, faith, power of
connection and exploringcommunity, bringing healing in a
time where people feel moredisconnected than they have,
even though they were moreconnected than we've ever been.
So Tim has some powerfulinsights here and it really
makes me question how weapproach these big issues and

(02:14):
how we can take ground forourselves in love and in
forgiveness with a higherpurpose.
So sit back, relax, get readyfor the powerful and wise Tim
Churchward.
Two, one, zero, all enginesrunning, liftoff.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
We're going to open up every can of worms where it's
possible to open up.
I teach our school, um, andyesterday night, last night, um,
it was identity.
So what does the bible sayabout identity?
And you've got to understandlike our church is massively
multi-ethnic, so I would saythat at least 60 of that room,

(03:01):
all our rooms, are black,african, black, caribbean, and
and it's really interestingbecause, um, when we talk about
identity, um, in that context,what happens is is that we
basically go back to theidentity that the bible gives us
and, and especially from thepoint of creation so you're a
son and a daughter, um, you're aruler and a raider, so you're,
you're royal, you're all thesethings and everything else.

(03:25):
That is how you look, what youfeel like, they're all secondary
claims to your identity that donot trump the identity of being
a child or daughter of God.
And it is really interesting.
So one of the things we try togo through is, if you believe in
a secular, humanist,materialist world where there is

(03:47):
nothing beyond the material,nothing beyond matter, like the
neo-Darwinism, dawkins, newatheism thing, then what happens
is that you, number one, youhave no transcendent morality,
so you don't have any sense inwhich that you have anything to
aspire to in terms of what isgood and bad, and that,
obviously, is us perpetuallyeating from the tree of
knowledge of good and evil totry and become like God.

(04:08):
We were never meant to carrythe weight of deciding moral
goodness and badness.
It was always meant to be God'sdesign.
And so, as a Christian, youhold to a set of moral values
that is far and above whathumans can define for themselves
.
But not only that.
You hold to the fact thatyou're more than just human,
that your identity is far morethan just your physical self.

(04:29):
And when you hold to thatnarrative, it is foundationally
counter-cultural andcounter-intuitive to a secular,
humanist, materialist world,because what they would believe
is that, essentially, you areclaiming to be superior because
there is nothing beyond you,there's nothing beyond me and
there's nothing beyond any humanbeing that makes us any

(04:52):
different or give us any claimthat there is a good or bad way
to live and a good or bad way tobe.
But what I say in the school isis that, look, we are defined by
two things in creation we'redefined by the dust and by the
glorious breath of God.
So Adam is created from dustand the glory.

(05:15):
And the thing is is that thedust is never meant to define
him.
The glory is meant to definehim.
The glory is meant to definehim.
And in our culture, what weoften see happen is that we see
us being asked to defineourselves by our dust, by our
flesh, by our wants, our desires, by the things that we look
like, by what we represent andall those things.

(05:37):
But actually the Bible is veryclear from creation You're not
going to be defined by dust,what you look like.
They're important things.
They shouldn't be undermined orinvalidated, but they're
secondary to the glory thatactually gives you life.
In other words, your identityis glory because you're, because
the glory brings you life.
Anything else outside of thatis just an aid to the life that

(05:58):
you already have.
And so when we think of it inthat narrative, it's really
important that we distinguishfrom when, when people are
trying to draw us into anidentity that is foundationally
based on a group orfoundationally based on how we
look, foundationally based onthe color of our skin or our
gender or whatever it might be,because all of those things are

(06:18):
representations of the dust.
It's not a bad thing, it's notto be undermined.
They're very important.
We're not gnostics and try andwhip our bodies away.
We believe and love our bodiesand our physical selves, but
it's not our identity.
So the whole point is is thatthen you shift your eyes to?
So what is identity, what is theglorious nature of identity?
And then you have the devil.

(06:40):
And the devil and the demonicnarrative in in terms of the
entirety of creation, is hewants you to be defined by the
dust.
It's why he's represented as asnake, right.
So he's the dust dweller, he'sthe one that whispers to you
come down here, come and bedefined by the thing that is

(07:01):
mortal, come and be defined andhave your identity based in the
thing that is temporal.
He tried to usurp the eternalgod and he could not do it.
So he is now trying to make ususurp, hit god and our identity
in god by drawing us backtowards the dust to be defined,

(07:21):
as opposed to being allowing usto be defined by the glorious
nature of who christ is.
And we see this all the time.
And the the great lie of thedevil is oh man, I'm already
going off on one, but like, comeback to me after this.
But the great lie of the devilis um, when adam and eve ate
from the tree of the knowledgeof good and evil, the lie was if

(07:43):
you eat of this tree, you willnot die, but you'll become more
like God.
Now, that's a lie, and we knowthat because we're already made
like God.
But it's far deeper than that.
The depth of it is that thefoundational narrative from the
snake, from the serpent, fromthe devil, in terms of that
creation story, is not just thatyou weren't like God when you
were.
It is also that God is a God ofcontrol.

(08:06):
God is the patriarchy.
In that sense he's theinstitution, in that sense he is
the one who creates boundariesand moral frameworks for you,
not for your benefit, but so hecan control you, so he can keep
you down, so that you don't haveto become more like him, or
rather that you don't becomelike him even though he created

(08:29):
you in his image.
And so the narrative the devilgives there is not simply that
we're not like God, it's thatGod is a controlling oppressor
and we are the oppressed.
That's the foundationalnarrative there.
And so whenever I hear anythingat all that wants to pit someone
as an oppressor and someone asoppressed, I immediately think

(08:51):
of that story and think, okay,oppression and someone who has
suffered oppression, someone whois an oppressor, is absolutely
real, absolutely foundational,and we have to fight those
things.
But when the definition of yourlife when you things.
But when the definition of yourlife, when you're invited into
the definition of your life, tobe to be defined by your
identity, to be defined by howoppressed you are or how much

(09:14):
you represent an oppressionyou've just stepped into the
demonic practice of whispers tocome down here and be defined by
your dust.
And actually, if you look atfeminism as a really classic
example that at least third andfourth wave feminism what they
believe is that there are men ofthe patriarchy and what that
means is is that they are alwaysgoing to be oppressors and

(09:36):
women are always the oppressed,and so what their foundational
narrative is is that women aredefined by being oppressed by
men and men are defined by thistoxic masculinity nonsense,
which is basically that we aresomehow defined by the fact that
we've oppressed women and assoon as you get to that point
where you're invited intoidentity either as the oppressor

(09:57):
or the oppressed, that's whatthe devil did at the beginning
of time, and so we have afoundational narrative, not even
in Marxism or Hegelianism orFoucault, in postmodernism or
any of those things which wenormally associate with.
It begins at the beginning oftime, in the Bible.
And so, actually, if we can getto grips with the fact that from

(10:19):
the beginning of time, there isa demonic narrative that wishes
to pit you against yourneighbor, to pit you against
your neighbor, to pit youagainst your brother or sister
in terms of how you rank in theoppressive olympics or the
oppressed olympics, until werecognize that we are always
going to recreate oppression inour societies, because it is a

(10:40):
vicious cycle.
And this is why, and this iswhy christianity is the only
answer, because christianity isthe only coherent narrative to
deal with oppression.
And it is the hardest thing todo.
Because how does jesus christdeal with oppression?
What he does is that he isinnocent, he's proven innocent,
he has never done anything wrong, yet pilot washes his hands.

(11:02):
So the roman governance of thetime says we don't want nothing
to do with this and so,therefore, are in league with
the Pharisees to kill him.
The Pharisaical tradition, theteaching of the law of the
Sadducees, the Pharisees,they're like, kill him.
From a religious point of view,he's blasphemed.
So, even though he's donenothing wrong, he's been
betrayed by his people.
He's been betrayed by theauthority that should be

(11:22):
protecting him.
He gets betrayed by hisdisciples who walk away and
actually, he is crucified in themost horrific way, shamed and
undermined in the most horrificway.
So Jordan Peterson says it'sthe tragedy of tragedies, it's
the ultimate tragedy, and thereality of that is that,
therefore, it is the greatestoppression, it is the most
oppressed anyone has ever beenthrough, all time.

(11:45):
And what is his response?
His response is father, forgivethem, for they do not know what
they're doing now.
If that is our example which,by the way, is physically
impossible without thesupernatural empowering the
spirit, which is whychristianity is the only
coherent narrative to empoweryou to be able to live in
forgiveness, if that forgiveness, if that is the real and

(12:06):
understood narrative of how weshould deal with oppression,
what that also means is that, inthat we get resurrected at the
end.
So, instead of being defined byour oppression, we actually
overcome it.
So the cross, which was thesymbol in Roman times of keeping
people down, of oppressingpeople, of minimizing their life

(12:26):
, no matter what they did,whether it was stealing an apple
from a tree or beinganti-government, like the
Maccabees were, whatever it was.
The Romans put people oncrosses outside every village in
town to show people we are thevictors, you are being, you are
under our rule and, as a resultof that, what we're going to do
is we're going to show you thatwe're in charge.

(12:47):
And that is the greatest formof oppression.
And if Jesus had died and onlydied on the cross, he would have
been overcome by oppression.
But in actual fact, the pointof the resurrection is is that
that cross now becomes a symbolof hope in Christianity, because
it's no longer the sign ofoppression, it's the sign of
overcoming oppression throughforgiveness and self-sacrifice.

(13:09):
And so then we get to the pointwhere we are in a situation
where now we're being invited todefine our lives by the death
on the cross as opposed to theresurrection power to overcome
oppression.
And that's why so sorry, bro.
One more more example I had agirl come to me on sunday.
She came to me and she saidthere's no way that I could be a

(13:31):
christian.
I was like, okay, why?
What happened there?
Um, and she said to me it'sbecause my friends who are
christians tell me that I've gotto forgive everything.
I have to forgive everyone, andI want to tell you that if
someone killed my son, I wouldnever forgive them and I was
like look, christianity, jesusChrist, is the only way to fully

(13:51):
comprehend this.
Because, number one, you have atranscendent God.
The Trinity is really powerfulhere.
You have a transcendent God,you have a transcendent being
who, at the foundation of theworld, creates a set moral
standard, moral code of behaviorthat keeps everybody safe.
It's not controlling, it's forsafety, but not only that.
He brings the moral standard toearth in Jesus Christ, in his

(14:17):
incarnation, to show you how tokeep to the moral standards,
even in the storm, even in thepain, even in the oppression and
the trauma, never minimizing it, always spending time with
people oppressed the prostitutes, the tax collectors, those who
are isolated, the lepers, allthose things.
Jesus spent so much time withthe oppressed but did not let

(14:39):
them be defined by their statein society, but raised them up
into resurrection, power that hewould eventually show as he was
resurrected from the death onthe cross.
And so what we have tounderstand is is the incarnation
of Christ gives us the exampleof how we can walk a journey of
forgiveness and life and we canwalk a journey of not being

(14:59):
defined by the things thathappen to us, but instead be
defined by his example, and askhim to give us strength in order
to forgive the people thatoppress us.
But not only that.
You then have the third personof the Trinity in the Holy
Spirit, so that you don'tactually have to forgive people.
You ask the Holy Spirit to comein to your life to

(15:22):
supernaturally empower you inorder that you say I cannot do
this on my own.
Holy Spirit, give me thesupernatural power that I can
forgive people who hurt me inthe gravest way.
And here's the deal aboutforgiveness and Paul writes
about this the whole way throughthe epistles is that
forgiveness is not about theother person.
The forgiveness sets you freefrom being bound in bitterness

(15:47):
by the actions of someone elsethat has oppressed or hurt you.
Forgiveness is not for them.
It is for you to be releasedfrom being defined by the
oppression of the oppressor overyour life, and that is the
solution.
None of this hyper umdefinition of of oppression that
keeps us round and round andround in the cycles.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
Done that's me thank you, pastor tim, we're gonna
enter into ministry.
If everyone wants to come downfront and someone's gonna pray
for you, uh no, we'll do analtar call first, though.
Right, so if you want to, that'swhat I'm saying like we're
gonna do a time ministry.
Come down the front, dude.
No, that was good, a lot tounpack there.
So I'm going to like go.
I had to write down some stuffas we go, so I'll go back to one

(16:35):
of, like, the first thing yousaid about identity, and you
know, ultimately, if we're youknow, I've talked about this
before Like, well, who are you?
Well, my name's Michael.
It's like, no, that's what yourparents call you.
Okay, who are you?
Well, I'm a doctor.
No, that's something youstudied for and you're doing in

(16:55):
your job.
Well, I'm an American?
No, that's where you justhappen to be born in time, space
and matter, and then they gaveyou a passport that told you
that.
But who are?
So you just like, go down thelist of the things that you're
talking about and it's like it'stoo low resolution.
Those are realities.
I'm not saying they're notrealities, like to your point,
but we're like if we we have togo to a source, like who am I?

(17:17):
Like I come from a source, andif we come from that source,
that's going to define theparameters of who I am, how tall
, how wide, how big, et cetera,and so all of my parents well,
who's their parents?
Who's their parents?
You know, you go all the wayback and so people, people, to
your point now there's like apretty big identity crisis in in
Western countries becausethere's this huge push for

(17:40):
globalism, a huge push formulticulturalism, but within
that, people naturally will.
It used to be said, america isthe melting pot, but
realistically, america is beefstew.
Where you know you go to anycity, there's Chinatown in New
York, a little Jamaica, a littleMoscow, et cetera People will
kind of cluster wherever they'reat.

(18:02):
So when there's this influenceto push globalism, to push
diversity, you're notacknowledging that people
automatically have biases.
They automatically have biasesbecause whenever someone has
similar thought patterns orthinking as me, I'm going to
inevitably group to those people, because it's easier to
anticipate behavior, it's easierto cooperate, it's easier to

(18:23):
cooperate, it's easier to buildstuff.
Okay.
So that's all real.
But whenever this, like in thestates, there's always been like
a kind of dialogue about racism, uh, but but when this stuff
really started popping off, likewhen when obama took office, uh
, that was kind of my departurepoint is like, oh well, didn't
paul like already kind ofaddress this, that there's not

(18:45):
really any distinction anymorebetween us like slave, free, jew
, greek, male or female.
So sex, economic, class andethnic group no distinction
between us in the sense of likewho we are.
In him that there's a, there'sa thing that we can aim at
higher.
So if we're looking at a ladderand it's like the highest thing

(19:06):
I could possibly aim at is thecreator of everything that
exists as defining who I am, thenext highest thing would be the
state itself.
The next thing underneath ofthat would be these groups that
we're talking about.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah, and what I would say in terms of like all
of those things.
I would say that so, forexample, in terms of, like
ethnic groups, I think cultureand heritage is foundational to,
to your, to informing youridentity.
It's just not your identity inits entirety.

(19:47):
So I would say that, forexample, there is something very
powerful about being anAmerican, or there's something
very powerful about beingBritish.
It's something that I'm proudof, but it's not who I am and

(20:10):
and but, but it's not who I am.
It is something that, um, Itake on as a choice and I can
guess I can reject as a choice,um, but the thing that I would
say about the ethnicity piece isthat I think that there is
something very real about theunique and individual expression
of every single person thatwhen you try and group it all
together under a particularbanner, you actually lose the
individual aspect of who thatperson is.
And I'm like I don't thinkthat's okay, because I think

(20:32):
that if we end up moving into aconversation where we have this
group and this group and thisgroup on the foundational
narrative, that somehow they'rehomogenized, I don't agree with
that.
I also think that there issomething really powerful to to
know that when paul talks aboutno greek, no jew, no male, no

(20:53):
female, no slave, no free, he'sdefinitely talking about that in
the context of, yeah, salvation, coming to know jesus christ.
Absolutely right and so and so,when we think about, in terms
of salvation, that that isabsolutely real, but those
people don't then go away andsuddenly lose their culture or

(21:13):
their heritage or theirethnicity or their inheritance,
whatever else it is actually,those things are still really
important.
They're actually stillfoundational because they're a
unique expression of who christis.
It's got to come under Christand under that primary identity
as being a son and daughter ofGod.

Speaker 3 (21:30):
Yeah, but that was my point is that we're being
called to be sons and daughters.
Therefore, the culture, theking and his family, therefore
I'm your brother, Therefore, andso you can go down the line of
like and this is my perspectivethat you know.
Jesus crucified.
He says when I be lifted up,I'll draw all men to me.
So he sucks the entirety ofhumanity into himself.

(21:50):
And so, in essence, me and Timare somehow Siamese triplets
with Jesus.
Like I'm connected to one hip,you're connected to another hip.
When I, when I try to findmyself in him in some place, I'm
going to see you in him.
And so that's what I wasmeaning is like it's breaking
down these things of like.
Well, we can't.

(22:10):
Uh, you know, we lived in a in atown, uh in germany, where
there was a wall going down themiddle of the town and there was
a lutheran side and a catholicside and uh, if you were not
allowed to marry somebody on theother side, you weren't allowed
to go to butcher shop.
These are all Germans, allwhite, all people look the same,
but they were divided on thispoint.
Like the same thing kind ofhappened in Ireland with the

(22:33):
troubles there, so peoplenaturally will want to gravitate
towards their group and theirbiases.
But really, the last thing thatJesus commanded people if you
look through John, like beforehe went to the cross, is like
don't be divided.
Like don't be divided.
And it's not saying like don'thave different preferences of

(22:54):
food, don't dress, likedifferently.
It's not about that.
It's about like a divisiveness,uh, in your, in your humanity.
And he's like the way thatpeople are going to know me is
the way that you love each other.
And so if you're trying tofollow Jesus, if you're trying
to do that, then you're going tohave to try to do that.
And that was my only point.

(23:15):
There is when this was likepopping off, because when we go
down that list, this is thehighest thing that I can aim at.
And then, if I can't, if I'mnot aiming the state highest
thing that I can aim at, andthen if I can't, if I'm not
aiming the state, politicalmovements are underneath that to
undermine or change the state.
And so then we see peoplegravitating towards things.
And one of the things I want totalk to you about is when we
talk about confirmation bias.
But, um, when, when peopleenter into like political

(23:38):
activism and they create afoundation, which then
bureaucracy comes into it, andwe're going to define our kind
of niche in society, thewhatever the goal is with it.
You mentioned feminism, solet's talk about women's
suffrage, whatever.
Whatever the goal is, it doesn'tmatter if you hit the goal or
not, because, because youcreated this entity and and

(24:02):
there's like a quote that like,uh, people don't have thoughts,
thoughts have people, uh, in asense, and and that's why, like
paul writes, like you have totake every thought captive and
bring it into obedience ofchrist, that like, thoughts can
have a hold of you, and so, whenyou create these entities, the
entity will become a monsterthat perpetuates itself.

(24:22):
So I've, in privateconversation, I've talked to
people about political things orabout religious things or
whatever, and they'll, they'llconfess something to me one on
one.
But then we get into a groupsetting and they're vehemently
like railing against what theysaid, they supported.
And I confront them later.
I'm like, why did you do that?
And like, oh, yeah, I'm justlike like afraid, like within

(24:43):
the group, to actually say whatI think.
And I think we're seeing thatlike across the board and
culture now is like people won'tthink as individuals, they're
thinking as a group.
And so when you create thispolitical movement, like women's
suffrage of like having equalrights and voting and working,
etc.
This monster just startsperpetuating itself to your
point where it's like now wehave to, we, we can be like on

(25:08):
equal as men, now we have to bebetter than men, or now we, in
some cases, we are men now, butit but it becomes this like
thing where it will just keepgoing in, regardless of the
person's building.
Whatever goal that you have,you just have to set new goals.
I think, like the LGBT.
Well, lgb movement is probablyproof of that as well.

(25:31):
It was a lot of push formarriage.
Well, they got marriage, butthen they had, like they had all
this money and energy goinginto that as a political
movement.
So it's like what do we takenext?
We have to, like, set some newgoal.
And so with feminism, it's likewhat do we take next?
We have to, like, set some newgoal.
And so with feminism, it's thesame we have to set some new
goal.
And and it creates it.
What it does is it creates anidentity crisis in people

(25:52):
because they don't actually knowwhat they're aiming at anymore.
Um, and then when it's likepassing from one generation to
the next, and I think all ofthis is kind of built into the
gospel narratives as well, as asPaul.
But, like, when we talk aboutlike, what are you going to be
defined by in in Jewish cultureand and Arab culture, and even

(26:15):
in Scandinavia in some places,when you introduce yourself my
name's, you know either Al orBen, like I'mael, son of
so-and-so.
And what was real fascinatingis when jesus changes, uh,
simon's name to peter.
Have you did you see the chosenseries?

(26:36):
Have you watched it all the waythrough?

Speaker 2 (26:38):
yeah, so not all the third one we've seen.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
I think you see the first two series okay, well,
when that, you'll enjoy thiswhen it comes.
But he changed his name topeter and it gives everybody a
complex like.
Everyone's like what, like how?
And then they're like do wehave to call him that now?
And everyone like keeps gettingit mixed up.
But it's like when we talkabout identity, it's like I'm
gonna change your name and likeeven in revelation it says that,

(27:01):
uh, god has like a stone, he'sgonna write your name on the
stone and no one will know it,but but him, uh.
You say uh, well, I was bornthis way.
This is who I am.
I was born this way.
Well, you have to be born againto enter in the kingdom.
We're born of above, dependingon how you want to translate
that.
So all these kind of things arelike built, built in.
What you're talking about,about transcendence of like,

(27:21):
you're not, and paul says you'renot a mere human.
Stop acting like mere men, iswhat he says.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
Uh, and I and I'm like, I'm really actually I'm
interested to see what you thinkabout this, bro, because I'm
like, is there a point at whichthose movements begin with an
aim at transcendent truth?
So, for example, yes, withsuffrage, or feminism, or

(27:50):
whatever you want to call it,let's, let's, let's start there.
I'm like, equality between menand women, I mean that's
biblical, so so men and womenare created equal in the garden.
So so for me, when that's notin place on the earth, it should
.
And so the idea of women'ssuffrage or equal votes, equal
whatever it is, even equal pay.

(28:12):
I mean, I've got my own viewson that, in terms of the fact
that you somehow find youridentity as a woman in getting
paid the same as a man, whichsounds pretty ridiculous to me.
But I'm a man so maybe I don'tunderstand that.
But even the equality of thegender, of genders, is actually
really, really powerful.
It's really important, theequality of the sexes, and we

(28:33):
saw that there's that film aboutthe women, the black women, who
work for NASA I can't rememberexactly what it's called, but
they're incredible.
But they've got to walk liketwo miles to go to the toilet or
whatever it is, and the ideathat that happens is freaking
awful, and so the idea offeminism bringing those things
to the surface, saying this, isnot reflective of the standard

(28:55):
of heaven.
We must do something about that.
I'm like, I'm all there.
But what's interesting for me iswhen I got off the train with
feminism is when third-wavefeminism kicked in, when I was
in social work and I consideredtrain with feminism is when
third wave feminism kicked in,when I was in social work and,
um, I considered myself to besomeone who was a feminist
because of the first two ways offeminism.
I could be a feminist even if Iwas a man I had the

(29:15):
conversation with, like thisthird wave feminists are like
hardcore, uh, anyway, let's notdwell on that too much.
And I was like well, so I can'tbe a feminist because of a man.
She's like no, like no, becausemen are the problem, men are
the issue.
I'm like well, john Stuart Millbasically supported the
suffrage movement from all theway through, from 1880 to 1920,

(29:36):
essentially, he spent 40 yearsworking with them, so he was
definitely a feminist.
So what shifted?
And the shift normally normallyin my experience and my
analysis of this and I'm not thegenius of the world, I
understand that, but normallythe shift that I see is, as soon
as a movement becomesanti-something as opposed to

(29:59):
pro-something, it dies or itgoes off the deep end.
So we saw that in feminism, orit goes off the deep end.
So we saw that in feminism.
Suddenly, women's rights, theequality which we should all be
working towards, was replacedwith.
Men are the issue.
Men are the problem.

(30:21):
We have a major issue with menbeing the patriarchy.
They built this system forthemselves.
And not only that and this isthe really interesting thing
about feminism that has actuallyspread out across most of the
social justice movements is thatit's all done on purpose.
All of this is donedeliberately, it's all
intentional, and the ascriptionof intentionality to every
action of, say, every man in theWestern world who built

(30:44):
something so that men could bepromoted it's just rubbish, it's
just not even true, like justthe reality of that isn't real.
And I think there's somethingvery, very important to
acknowledge that some of thesemovements of thought, thought
movements begin with a verypowerful narrative, that is,
around the justice that godhimself believes in.

(31:06):
But as soon as you take it outof the moral framework of
Christianity, you take it out ofGod's framework, which includes
forgiveness, love,self-sacrifice, when social
justice becomes unmoored oruntethered from the other
realities of justice, whichincludes forgiveness and love

(31:26):
and self-sacrifice, you've justwalked into the trap that
perpetuates oppression andperpetuates the cycle of
injustice, and I think we seethis all the time in social
justice movements.
And, for me, I would love topinpoint the moment where BLM or
the feminist movement or theLGBT movement, or whatever
feminist movement or the LGBTmovement or whatever it is,

(31:47):
moved away from beingpro-equality to being
anti-everything else, and thatis the moment in which I think
that the demons get in.
That's quite a big thing to sayand I understand that.
I don't know who's listening tothis, but I believe in the
spirit realm, I believe thedevil is real, I believe he
whispers, lies, and I believethat he tries to take us out by

(32:08):
whispering to us and trying tomake us the try to get the
divine spark within us to bedefined by the dust, not by the
glory right.
And I think, I think for me,I'm looking at these, these
movements, and I'm like man.
They started off so good andI'm really prone, and then, my
gosh, you're right, they becomeentities in and of themselves
and become monsters that we canno longer control, and then they

(32:30):
become insatiable andbloodthirsty.
They become the movements thatwant blood, they want death,
they want you to die because youare the problem, you are the
issue, and I'm like man.
That is just not real.

Speaker 3 (32:45):
it's not biblical, and social justice in our
current guise of it is notbiblical justice well, to your
point, like if you do a wordstudy and you look at the word
justice, whether you're doing itin the greek or in the hebrew,
it's, it's inseparable fromreconciliation, right, it's
absolutely inseparable.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Justice is unto something you want justice, not
for justice's sake, it's tobuild the relational gap back.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
So but but yeah, but people, people and and in the
states, I would say like it'sdefinitely guilty here, like,
when we talk about the justicesystem, it's about punishment,
it's about I like, and I'm nottrying to make any statement
about death penalty, but I'mjust saying, like you know, I
made some guy like made thestatement.
It was like maybe stop andthink he's like OK, so if

(33:33):
somebody kills somebody, we needto kill that person to show
people that killing people iswrong.
So it is about punishment andI'm not trying to make a
statement about that.
And so, like, when you look ata biblical definition of justice
, it always ends inreconciliation.
The definition ofreconciliation is to break
separation and restore unity, umthe person.

(33:57):
So you're redeeming them backto the previous quality of like
relationship, um, there, whichwe would call them like
correctional facilities, likerehabilitation facilities in a
sense, but most oftentimespeople come out worse than what
they when they went in.
And I to your point, that'skind of it is like people come
out worse than when they go inand they come in with noble,

(34:19):
noble means.
But I think if you don't haveany kind of bumper lanes in
place of like there areboundaries, there are limits
there's.
There's so far that we want togo, but people don't do well
with moderation and I've hadthis discussion even in the
business development world aslike there's no tree out there
that just grows and grows andgrows and grows and grows and

(34:41):
grows.
Even we can find trees that arethousands of years old.
They stopped growing, growing.
They are existing there.
So when we end, like withbusinesses, people just have
these pie in the sky things oflike realistically, like we
don't need to be a trilliondollar business or multi-billion
that, we don't need that.

(35:01):
But that's what I was saying islike when you create an uh,
there's a power of agreement,and like to your point, like
what is what?
Are we being driven by somekind of purpose or are we being
led by the spirit of god?
When you're led by the spiritof god, there's like people
don't understand this as wellwith like movements.
They call it a movement becauseit's a.

(35:23):
It moves somewhere and then itcan move in another direction,
but they want to sustain amovement multi-generationally.
I'm like you can do that tosome degree, but if you just do
a short look through scripture,you'll see there's cyclical
cycles.
Even in scripture there'sseasons, there's a time to laugh

(35:44):
, there's a time to cry, there'stime, et cetera.
So I think that's where theproblem is, is that there's a
time to laugh, there's a time tocry, there's time, etc.
So I I think like that that'swhere the problem is is that
there becomes a conflict ofinterest when money gets
involved, when bureaucracy getsinvolved and we, like we, you
know, there's all these memes Isee of like how would the
government make a sandwich andit shows a slice of bread?
Like standing like this and itshows ham like this, another
slice like this.

(36:04):
It's like when you delegate itout and someone, there's an
incentive for somebody to keepthings going.
Uh, sometimes, like drug lawenforcement would be an example
of this like I'm about likeactually paying police more
money and they only make like 45000 a year and they put their
life in a line.
I feel.
I feel like it attractssometimes the wrong kind of

(36:24):
people.
If you pay them a bit more andgive them more training,
probably be better off foreverybody.
But anyways, if I get X amountof money, of funding, because
there's X amount of crime, thereis an incentive for me to
arrest more people or write moretickets or, like we.
You know, people makestatements about quotas.
So that's the true withbureaucracy, that's the true

(36:45):
with political movements andlike, to your point, how do we
keep?
How do we keep the momentum?
Well, people love outrage,people love injustice.
Like, if you're talking aboutthis narrative of like, even in
the beginning there's this march.
Like marxist, marxism is atheology.
So it's borrowing from thisnarrative that the devil is like

(37:05):
, oh, I need to put you at oddswith god, because he's he's
withholding you know, thingsfrom you.
You could actually have more.
And to add to what you said,like, if you want to be like god
, do this x, y and z so you fillin socially, politically or
religiously.
How do we close the gap to belike god?

(37:25):
It's something that we have todo.
We have to fight for you know,beastie boys, you have to fight
for your right to party.
And so in America there's a bigpush for rights, rights, rights
, rights, right, that's thenarrative for the like, for a
good portion of politics.
Now you need your rights andrights and rights.
But there always has to be thisrelationship between I have

(37:46):
rights and tim has rights, and Ihave to respect that.
Tim has rights and I have aresponsibility to protect tim's
rights, even if we're not in a,in a you know agreement.
And I think like denominational,like denominations, would fall
under what you're talking aboutas well, like denominationalism
in the sense of like you look atsomebody like John Wesley who,

(38:08):
like, had, like these, reallystrict methodology on how
communities should functiontogether and it was all about
taking specific ground.
But then people just kind oflose their way and when you get
into like a hardlinedenomination, get into like a
hard line denomination viewpointor mode of thinking, then it's

(38:28):
like, well, they're not us andlike this is about maintaining
who we are and differentiatingourselves in the group versus a.
God is the source.
I come from God and this isjust.
This is like me picking adifferent kind of perfume as you
, I have a different fragrance,but we're still like the same.
We're still, you know, meatbags walking around with ghosts

(38:52):
inside of us, like a Holy Spiritinside of us, but I just
sprayed a different kind ofperfume on myself.
Or you know, we come from thesame.
It's a soda dispenser atMcDonald's and like you're
Sprite but I'm Dr Pepper.
You know brown and white, butwe still came from the same soda
dispenser.
We came from the same source butcompletely different flavors

(39:14):
can different, completelydifferent companies per se um
and importantly so, andimportantly different because
intentionally intentionally, Ithink I don't want to lose that
that you're made completely theway you are on purpose, it's not
by accident.
It's not by accident becausewhen I watched the chosen, that

(39:34):
was one of the things that likereally struck me and my wife was
that you know, you kind of getlike as we, as we like
domesticate christianity andpost-christian countries, and
then you try to simplify andmake things more and more
shallow so children canunderstand it, which I think
that I think I don't want to gooff another rant here but they

(39:55):
did a study with American kidsand Japanese kids in math
classes and there's all thisweird stereotype about how Asian
people are so smart at math.
But then they actually dug intoit and what they found was the
the there's a range where kidsreally struggled to get the
concept Like they're actuallyyou're stretching them.
In Japan it's 40% of the timethat they keep them in that

(40:16):
range of like, making them thinkand stuff.
In America it's 2% and that waslike the differentiator.
And I think, like with kids,when you're teaching kids, kids,
I think it's the same like youhave to call them basically
transcendence, but you're liketelling them stories that are
very simple stories but the youcan't dilute the meaning in the
story.

(40:36):
You're planting the seed insideof them and their brain and
their heart have to like,actually marinate on it and
catch up to it.
But we want to pre-packagethings in a sunday school way to
give it to kids where they canlike, immediately regurgitate it
back.
We're in that Western mode ofthinking about memorization
regurgitation.
But man, what was I going offon that rant for?

(40:58):
You said some point and then Iwas.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
Going from justice to the education system.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
Yeah, well, I think I lost it, man, I'll come back to
it.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
well, I think I think I think, for me, I'm like I the
, the idea that you started with, which was the idea that the
justice system is about, is'snot about rehabilitation.
It's actually about, um,punishment, punishment and and I
think punishment, yeah,consequence is a really
important thing, and then thedifferentiation between

(41:35):
consequence and punishment, um,I think that's really that's a
that's a whole otherconversation, but I think I I
think that there's this reallyinteresting, there's this
interesting narrative within thecontext of justice well, let me
reframe.

Speaker 3 (41:48):
So like, yes, consequences, there is
consequences.
Like there's laws are set inplace, you know, like there's
statute of limitations with that.
Uh, I guess what I'm saying isit depends on the heart by which
you're executing.
Okay, so give an example if, ifmy kids are misbehaving,
there's all kinds of like routeswe can go, we can we, we can do
time out, I can take thingsaway, I can use the carrot

(42:14):
method or I could like smacktheir hand or smack their butt,
in that sense.
So, out of what, what?
What is my departure point fordoing that?
So, when you talk to mostpeople, it's like you got to
calm down, you got to be neutral, you got to explain thoroughly.
The kid, me and you had thisconversation, I think, about my
son.
He's like scorched earth.
Nothing works with him in termsof like discipline that I was

(42:36):
finding, unless I like give thisslow, methodical build-up of
like hey, buddy, you bit yoursister, she's bleeding.
I'm gonna have to like smackyour hand, um, but you're gonna
have to pick which hand.
Like I'm empowering him in thatlike thing.
But like, is it the left handor the right hand?
He's like no, daddy, no, no, no, I don't want it.
It's like barely a tap, likeI'm barely going through the

(42:58):
motions of it, um, and it's sodevastating to me I'm not a bad
boy.
This makes me feel like a badboy.
I'm like no, I never saidyou're a bad boy, but he's like
getting like okay, we're justtalking all the time there's
consequence.
Now I could just fly off thehandle.
I'm like don't bite your sisterand smack his hand.
I'm delivering basically thesame thing, but the mode is
completely different.

(43:19):
So when somebody will use like Isaw this clip of a guy.
He was a serial killer and theywent through all the people he
like he just stone faced theentire trial, no remorse.
I think he killed like 40 women, like something crazy, and, uh,
all their relatives were therelike in tears, and they were
like they were so you know,understandably so angry and hurt

(43:39):
and they're like I hope, I hopeyou die and you burn in hell
and I hope you rot.
And there's just like, personafter person who's like I hate
you, I hate you, you stole my,my family member from me.
Then this big, big bellied guywith a white beard and rainbow
suspenders gets up and he's likeI remember the dude's name.
He's like Mr Blah blah blah.

(44:02):
A lot of people here hate you,but I'm not one of them and you
made it very hard to do what Ibelieve in.
But I believe in Jesus Christand what I believe is that I'm
supposed to forgive you andyou're forgiven and the guy
starts crying.
Dude, the guy who is on trialstarts crying, and so the guy's

(44:30):
going to be executed or life inprison, whatever it is.
But that's what I mean.
It's like the difference of like.
There's going to be aconsequence, for sure, but
what's like the heart motivationhere?
Do we want to see the personredeemed?
And some people don't, because,like the depths of evil we are
repulsed by.
But we all want to putourselves morally higher than

(44:50):
other people, even in prison.
If you have abused children orsomething like that, you are the
lowest of the low.
You can be a violent criminalwith violent criminals, but they
have their own hierarchy oflike.
What's the worst, worst?
And so we we're anyways I'mgoing on a rant about, but
that's what my point was.
Like, yes, 100 like.

(45:10):
There needs to be a justicesystem, there needs to be
consequences, but what's ourheart motivation for people is
that we want them to be redeemed, we want them to transcend.
Or it's like I want to validatethis in my endocrine system
which tells me you're bad,you're wrong and let me punish
you.
And like I'm definitely likeguilty, guilty of that dude,

(45:33):
anything with kids, anythinglike that.
Like I'm just like my, my, mygo-to is like bury them under
the jail.
Like I'm just like done, butI'm just saying like when we?
Anyways, I'll let you speak, so.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
No, I think that's real because there's also this
sense in which actually thejustice is meant to protect the
vulnerable.
So if the way to protect thevulnerable is by life
imprisonment I'm not personallya fan of the death, but I don't
think I think it's too final.
But life imprisonment I'm down.
If you cannot show that you areable to live a life which is

(46:14):
worthy of the society that we'vebuilt, then you can't live in
it.
It just is what it is.
That's a consequence.
But for me to suggest thatthere is no redemption, even for
the greatest sinner is isanti-biblical.
And if I'm honest with you, I'mlike there's a very real extent

(46:37):
that we are all children, rightfor our culture, because the
serial killer and thetwo-year-old who buys his sister
obviously part poles apart interms of life experience and the

(47:01):
horrendous things or whateverlike buying your sister.
I'm not trying to comparebuying a sister to being kidding
for women, but what I'm sayingis is that we're all kids and
the Bible's really clear.
The Christian ethic,judeo-christian ethic is really
clear.
We're all children.
Now the thing with children isis that children do not do well
with punishment.
They don't do well withpunishment because they live a

(47:26):
life foundationally on thenarrative of that, they've got
something to be scared of andpunishment and I mean the Bible
is clear.
So are these familiar?
I think?
Punishment we, we, we, we, we.
I think it's Paul.
I need to find the scripture,maybe we can look it up, but,

(47:48):
but we are.
But I need to find thescripture, maybe we can look it
up.
But fear has to do withpunishment.
So the perfect love casts outall fear, because fear has to do
with punishment.
Yeah, I think that's one, john,and so what I'd say is that
when we consider that we are allchildren, all of us are
children of God.
That's how we were created anddesigned to be.

(48:09):
All of us need consequence, butI don't think God ever punishes
us.
Now, that's an interestingnarrative to unpack.
But, for example, I've heard soyou know like and I always go
back to creation because I thinkthere's a lot of simile there
and at the beginning of time,when Adam and Eve eat the tree

(48:32):
of knowledge good and evil whathappens is they become shameful.
They try and cover themselveswith fig leaves.
So fig leaves are this skinirritant.
That's a really good.
That's an important thing, thatwhen we try and cover ourselves
.
It's actually just anirritation to ourselves, like
when we try and cover up ourshame or cover up our sin,
actually just makes things worse.
We're also not very good at itbecause we only cover up parts
of our body, and what's reallyimportant to know is is that god

(48:52):
actually removes the fig leavesand gives them skin to walk out
of the of eden with and and?
When we think about that interms of the narrative behind it
, it's that god covers us whenwe cannot cover ourselves, even
if we are in sin, and we knowthat that is the foundational
narrative for the atoningsacrifice.
Jesus becomes the atoningsacrifice and then he does look

(49:14):
across to set us free from everysin, which is actually
prophesied by God, giving us theanimal skins to walk out of God
and be eaten with right.
But it's more than just that,because the lord yahweh, god, he
puts the, the cherubim, at theat the end of the door with a
flaming sort of fire, which istwo things.

(49:34):
Number one, the only way youre-enter eden is if you go
through the fire, which meansthat you have to be perfected to
go back into perfection.
Otherwise you're not perfect.
But not only that.
People were like gosh, isn't itharsh that god kicked them out
of the garden.
The women have pain inchildbirth and men have to till
the land.
But had they stayed in thegarden and eaten of the tree of

(49:57):
life, then what would havehappened is is that they would
have been eternally separatedfrom god because they were
sinful, because the tree of lifebrings eternal life.
And had they eaten of that treein their sinful state, they'd
have been separated from Godbecause they were sinful,
because the tree of life bringseternal life.
And had they eaten of that treein their sinful state, they'd
have been separated from God.
So actually, the flaming swordat the entrance of Eden is not

(50:18):
punishment, it is a consequence,but it's also for our
protection.
So that's the difference.
Children have consequences toprotect them.
They have boundaries to protectthem.
Now, in our culture, which isobsessed with social justice,
we're also obsessed with theidea that we should define
ourselves.
We are not children, we areadults.
We are the ones who should bein charge.

(50:40):
We are the ones who do.
We don't need protection, wecreate our own bubble of
protection, and we all know thatthat's a load of bollocks.
But I'm sorry, excuse me, maybewe should put that we all know
that that is not true.
Is that a bad word is bollocksa bad word?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for me it isour pastor, but we but we, but

(51:06):
we can't, we never.
We aren't able to create theenvironment for our own safety,
which means that if we arechildren, we have to accept that
when we do something that afather figure in Christianity,
the divine father, says is wrong, we receive consequence.
So everybody says to me, peoplecome to me all time, bro, and

(51:29):
they say to me how can a goodgod send people to hell?
And the answer is he doesn't.
Yeah, so hell is a choice, it'sa consequence for what we
believe.
God literally said over myson's dead body will anyone ever
go to hell?
But you can still jump overjesus's body, and it's a
consequence.
So hell is a consequence, not apunishment.
You chose it.

(51:49):
So there's, there's somethingreally powerful to acknowledge
that within the context of ourculture, we don't want to be
kids.
We want to define ourselves, wewant to define what's true,
what's moral and what counts asjustice and injustice, and the
christian concept that we're allchildren who need consequence,
who need discipline, but notonly that, who all need training

(52:13):
so that they can live a life ofholiness and, when they fall,
can be redeemed.
You have to be a child toreceive that and that's why you
have to get born again, or bornfrom above, because you have to
reinherit the childhood that thedevil tried to steal from you
at the beginning of time.
That's the purpose of the wholenarrative of the bible, and

(52:36):
when you talk about justice,when you talk about punishment,
when you talk about there's norehabilitation, it's because
it's become unmoored from, or atleast detached from, the
narrative of forgiveness, ofredemption, that christ
self-sacrificed, that he died onthe cross.
And so when the justice system,when the education system, when

(52:59):
social justice as a concept andas thought movements become
separated from the narrative ofredemption which is is why I'm
like hey, but so anti-racism isa crazy concept biblically,
because anti-racism basicallysays you're always going to be
racist, you're always going tohave a major problem, there's no

(53:19):
real redemption for you,there's nothing that you can do.
You just have to get good atrecognizing when you're racist
and receive the feedback thatyou are a racist and I'm like
guys, but that maybe, maybe I'm,maybe I am always racist.
I don't know, I hope not, butmaybe I am, even if I am well,

(53:42):
even if I am, how?
How is there no redemption forme?
Because there's Christ?
Why Christianity is the onlyanswer to the world's issues.
And so, to bring that thoughtto a close, I'm like, if we are
not children and if we don'taccept adoption and rebirth into
a higher narrative, a kingdomof heaven, we end up creating

(54:05):
the world that we live in, whichis full of rage, full of anger,
full of despair, full of umfalse hope, full of
self-identification, full of ameaning crisis.
Identity crisis, a meta crisisis what they call it in the
philosophical narratives.
Why is that?
Because we have becomeuntethered from our identity as

(54:28):
children of god, and if we dothat, it means that we create
spaces where we have to killeverything that doesn't agree
with us, because that's whatkids do they cancel each other.
My daughter does this all thetime.
She's like I don't want asister anymore because she
called me a poo-poo face.
I'm like that is the narrativeof our whole culture.

(54:51):
And when you want leadership,the reason why leadership is
important is because you say topeople hey, honestly, I'm so
sorry that she called you apoo-poo face, like I'm really
sorry that that's real.
I'm really, really sorry.
I'm actually heartbroken.
I'm heartbroken that you had toexperience that pain from a man

(55:12):
.
I'm heartbroken that you had toexperience that pain from
someone who was a differentcolour to you.
Genuinely, it grieves me and Ihate it, but you're a child of
God, not even but.
And you're a child of God,which means this that Christ in
you is the hope of glory.
Christ in you is the one thatcan bring redemption and it can

(55:35):
empower you to live a life freein forgiveness, not bound by
bitterness.
And because we have a societyrun by children who don't want
to be children, we actually havea society run by orphans, and a
society run by orphans meansthat everyone has to stake up
for themselves, everyone has toprotect themselves, everyone has

(55:58):
to create their own moralframework so no one can hurt
them, and that is a society ofdisaster.
That is what we're seeing, butthere is a story of redemption.
It's're seeing, but there is a.
There is a story of redemption.
It's the ecclesia, the church,it is faith in jesus christ and
it is the ultimate narrative ofus being children of god yeah,
well, you mentioned god sendingpeople to like.

Speaker 3 (56:20):
People say I can't follow god because he sends
people to hell.
I don't know, know if it wasLewis or who said it, but they
said hell is God's finalgranting of man's final wish to
be left alone, and there's aninvitation to relationship,
there's an invitation to family,as you're saying.

(56:41):
I think, like in scripture.
You can kind of pour throughscriptures and and Paul.
Sometimes things areinterchangeable, but sometimes
things are intentional with howthey're phrased, uh, word wise,
and so sometimes in the epistlesyou'll see him referring to
people as children and thensometimes sons, and so that

(57:01):
there's a differentiation there.
For sure, what you're talkingabout of like when, when
someone's calling me, you know,so this is my son or this is my
child, uh, it's denoting a.
You know, this maturity, thisage thing, this dependency thing
that you're, that you'retalking about, um, but I would
say you know to your point, ifpeople don't, if you're gonna

(57:28):
act like again, like this is inthe western culture we're trying
to like they're post-modern,you know, passport, passport,
post-modernism, but we're tryingto dismantle structures that
have existed and ways ofthinking existed and build
something new.
But ultimately what we'reaiming at is you.
You know Tim has his truth, Ihave my truth, and so I'm I'm

(57:50):
like a I'm concocting thisrecipe that I'm the only person
in the history of the human raceever thinks like this.
I have all these biases and allthese filters and there's a
pipeline on how, like there's,there's glasses on how I see the
world and there's all thesespecial lenses that I put in.
That's based off my experiences, based off what my parents
taught me, based off pain,trauma, based off the group and

(58:13):
all these things that we'retalking about.
Identifying yourself, and sothat's where I'm choosing to see
the world from.
And when Jesus is calling you,come up here.
Like, see things from myperspective, from the cross
that's what Paul said like we'reco-crucified with Christ.
So that story is not just astory.

(58:34):
That's my story.
I was present there.
I was present in theresurrection.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
Carry on with this.
But that thing about having aperspective from the cross being
raised on the cross is reallyimportant, Because where you get
perspective from is cross beingraised on the cross is really
important, because where you getperspective from is in your
death to yourself.
That's where you getperspective.
You get a higher perspective asyou die yes, but that was the
point is.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
You talked about fire earlier, and so there's all
these references throughscripture to fire.
So what?
This fire, what?
There's all these farmingreferences and scripture.
So what do you do?
When you harvest wheat, youlike, you have to cut it, you
have to thrash it to beat thecrap out of it, to get the
actual wheat kernel separate,and once you separate it,
there's, there's part of the,the wheat that is not useful or

(59:18):
not going to be used, and so weburn that.
And so when we come into contactwith with god, that's an
inevitability when we're beingcrucified, well, what's being
crucified?
What's being crucified and andsupposed to be dying off, are
these things that are not goingto fit in the kingdom.
There's no prioritization ofthem in the kingdom because
they're not pulling in the samedirection.

(59:39):
And so when you do that, your,your ego, is going to take a hit
and like what people don't wantto like.
This is like, not really talkedabout that much, but just the
idea of, um, everybody who'sbeen born ever, uh, has fallen
short, uh, of a standard andyou're, you're defined like,

(01:00:03):
within your identity, as acenter there, and that you're
missing something and you don'thave the ability to save
yourself, like I call it hustleporn, but, uh, success porn.
But basically the self-made manis the ultimate lie of like and
in any, any story, no matterhow inspiring it is, like,

(01:00:23):
especially guys who are like inyour 20, 20s.
And you're listening to thisand you're following these
influencers and they're saying,yeah, me and my family had
nothing, my dad left and this.
And then I studied all thisstuff and blah, blah, blah.
And then I have abillion-dollar company.
That person had so many people,countless people, pouring into
them and teaching them.
Somebody taught that person howto walk.
They wiped their butt, theyfixed them food.

(01:00:45):
So many people poured in thatperson, that person standing on
the shoulders of all thesepeople to get to where they are.
It's a complete lie.
It's a false narrative that youcan save yourself and scripture
says that clearly.
If you say that you don't needthe blood of Jesus, you make
Christ a liar, meaning that youdon't think that you need a
savior.
You do need a savior, but thesavior that you need is not a

(01:01:06):
political party, it's not anethnic group, it's not your
state, it's not your parents,it's not you.
You can't save yourself.
The parable of the lost coin,the parable of the lost sheep
and the parable of the pearl ofgreat price.
These things could not savethemselves.
They had innate value fromGod's perspective.
That he is going to, the coin'svalue does not change,

(01:01:30):
irregardless of his lost andfound, the sheep, and as well
the pearl, the great price.
These are all things ofdenoting that we don't save
ourselves.
God's the one who comes in andsaves us and we have innate
value in that.
But we have to acknowledge that,and a lot of people don't want
to acknowledge that I, I, I amthe problem, me, michael,

(01:01:51):
personally, I am the problem inmy own life and in the world.
They don't want to look inward,they want to look outward, they
want to play a blame game.
So if I'm starting with thepoint, I am the problem, I need
to be fixed, I need to transcend, and I can't do it myself.
If you're not willing to startthere, then you're not going to

(01:02:12):
go to where you need to go, andso we're undercutting ourselves
in our identity, we'reundercutting ourselves in our
destiny, in that sense.
And so when we look at, I thinkme and you have talked about
before of, like Thomas Sowell,he's an economist and he kind of

(01:02:34):
like leans into this, but hetalks about the unconstrained
and the constrained worldviewand in the unconstrained
worldview it just believes thatpeople are innately good,
they're born good.
This would really fall intopostmodernism.
But people are really born good, but society somehow has all
these chains and institutionswhich already implodes on itself

(01:02:55):
.
If people are good, then wheredoes the evil come from?
So the evil comes from theseinstitutions.
Well, who made the institutions?
People.
But anyways, we won't implodethe narrative right now.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
People are good.
People who make theinstitutions are the male
patriarchy and they're theproblem.

Speaker 3 (01:03:10):
Well, but I'm saying, like the narrative begins all
people are just born.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
good, they're innately good, but they're born
into chains.
And it's completelyself-defeating because,
basically, you have to.
So you, you have to drill downand say where's evil come from.
And evil can only come frompeople who were evil.
And so what I'm saying is withfeminism, for, for example, the
evil people aren't women, it'sonly men.

(01:03:36):
So you end up having to isolatethe problem of evil to a people
group, and this is what happensin social justice all the time.
In fact, I mean, I'll go back tocreation here again, but the
blame game starts in creation,because God's like hey, why are
you hiding from creation?

(01:03:56):
Because God's like hey, why areyou hiding from me?
Eve's like, hey, it wasn't me,the snake gave it to me.
And Adam's like it wasn't me,the woman that you created, he
blamed God for it, like that'swhy I'm in trouble.
And actually what happens isthat there's these innate
defense mechanisms.

(01:04:17):
Basically, we don't have totake responsibility for being
stupid or for being sinful.
It's really interesting,because if you cannot associate
the evil in yourself, then whatyou'll have to do is you'll have
to associate not even evil, thenot good in yourself.

(01:04:38):
Then you'll have to try andblame someone else for that.
And when you're talking aboutthe internal self-analysis.
We actually do that in ourculture, but only to promote
ourselves, and our internalself-analysis is I must be good,
I'm absolutely fine the way Iam.
No one should tell me what todo, and this is why because I am
this or I am this or I am thisor whatever it is but actually

(01:05:02):
for a Christian worldview toassociate the pain or the not
goodness in your life means thatyou have to take the
responsibility to walk a journeyof looking like someone
different to the person that youcurrently are.
And what's interesting is isthat original sin is a really

(01:05:24):
important part of that.
So the doctrine of original sinkeeps you grounded and it's not
that you're not innocent.
This is a really importantdistinction.
Children are innocent, butactually they're still tainted
by original sin on the basisthat they are born into a world
that teaches them how to lie.
It teaches them how to dothings like manipulate.

(01:05:49):
My kids are so manipulativeit's unbelievable and I like
sometimes I love them for it andsometimes I'm like gosh that if
you do that as an adult likeyou are, you are a sociopath in
the making.
There's just something reallyreally powerful there that in
their childlikeness.
They're innocent.
They don't know that they'reusing, like the, the tendencies

(01:06:12):
of their humanity, the fall ofhumanity, to create an
environment where they are ontop, they're the winners, but
that's what they do.
But they're innocent in that andour job as parents is to train
them that, as they become lessand less innocent, that they
have a self definition orself-regulation that says, oh,
I'm doing this for my benefit,not for your benefit.

(01:06:32):
I am saying, oh, mommy, I loveyou so much because I want
chocolate, as opposed to Iactually love you right, like
it's all real guys, like if youlisten to this and michael, who
is, has to listen to thisbecause I'm ranting we do this
all the time in our culture.
We want to say the right thingso that not the person who we're

(01:06:55):
talking to feels built up, butso that we get what we want.
We, we live in a constantlymanipulative society where we
say, hey, do you know whatyou're awesome, give me five
pounds or whatever it is.
And like we have to be aware ofthat because as you get older,
you learn and you become notinnocent and actually then you

(01:07:15):
become the person whomanipulates and the person who
becomes the person who becomes asociopath, and we have to
understand those things.
So all of that rant to say, isthat what, what you're saying
about the nature of, of how, ofhow we in, how we, how we
analyze ourselves, is soimportant?

(01:07:37):
Because we have to associatethe narrative of sickness and
find it within ourselves, askfor the healing to come for
Christians, and the onlycoherent narrative is
Christianity.
For this, it comes from layingdown your life and your rights
to come to Jesusesus christ andsay heal me, holy spirit, come

(01:07:59):
and empower me so I don't livelike that.
So you identify the evil was in, is within you.
You repent of that.
You say sorry, god, hey, helpme not live this way, heal me.
And then you live in the powerof the spirit, which is two
things the fruit of the spirit,which is peace, patience,
kindness and self-control, plusthe other three I can never
remember.
And you live with the, thespirit, which is two things the
fruit of the spirit, which ispeace, patience, gentleness,
kindness and self-control, plusthe other three I can never
remember.

(01:08:19):
And you live with the power ofthe spirit, which is that you
prophesy, you hear from god, youheal people, you raise the dead
, you cleanse the leper.
You heal the sick and also youget to walk and you go to the
orphan and the widow, like injames one, and you hug them, you
love them, you bring them outof the societal standing where
they are and elevate them upwhen they can't do it themselves

(01:08:39):
.
You elevate their voice whenyou can't do it themselves.
But it all comes out ofassociating the evil within
yourself in the first place yeah, well, I think to your point.

Speaker 3 (01:08:51):
If everybody is playing a zero sum total game
and I feel like I'm the onlyperson who's being like
genuinely, like, hey, this iswhere I'm at, this is what I'm
dealing with and I'm trying totranscend that, it might feel a
bit redundant.
I'll give you example.
So, uh, I work in like businessdevelopment, high ticket sales,

(01:09:18):
things like that in the pastand my, my, my litmus test is,
if I would not sell this to mymom, I'm not gonna work in this
offer for this business if I.
That's like, if you can't sellit to your mom, you probably
shouldn't be doing it.
And then the way that you sellit, would you sell it to your
mom?
Like that, would you?

(01:09:39):
Would you?
And so there's a tension ofyou're trying to connect people
with products and services andsometime you have a better.
You have a well, most of thetime, you have a much clearer
understanding of what it isyou're doing and how it's going
to benefit that person, and youhave to detach yourself from the
outcome of like, I need you tobuy this so I can make money.
I need you more than me, butit's like, genuinely, is this

(01:09:59):
going to get you to where youneed to go.
And so there's this tension ofsometimes people don't realize
that if they don't act on this,what it's going to cost them
time and money, wise.
And so you have to like paintthat picture for them of like,
okay, you could go off andfigure this out on your own,
maybe.
Picture for them of like, okay,you could go off and figure
this out on your own, maybe.
But like this is probablywhat's going to happen, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then there's anotherelement of I am going to

(01:10:24):
leverage fear and pain in a way,weaponize it to manipulate you
to make a decision, likepressure Right.
And so my, my departure point islike I just want to be brutally
honest with people.
There's like all these likekind of tactics, like you don't
reveal price and you don't dothat.
I just kind of just have aconversation and use critical
thinking with the person andwhat I'm doing is not really

(01:10:47):
replicable.
They'll take recordings of itand not say I'm like the
greatest person at this, likethere are people way better and
they implement these kind of inthe sense of like closing people
.
But if you, if you, if I'm justin it, of like, well, everybody
else is doing this, so I'm justgoing to do it this way.
Then we're victimizing peopleas a victim, because I, like I

(01:11:11):
have to use you as a steppingstone to get to where, where I
want, and I'm not seeing thehumanity in you and then I'm not
allowing the humanity in myselfto come up and like compassion
and empathy.
And some of these things arenot really convenient.
Like I think sometimes aboutJesus walking around and like he

(01:11:32):
would have people.
So you see it, like with theloaves and fish, he just
multiplies it Right.
So it's just kind of arbitraryfor me sometimes when he sends
the disciples out to get stufflike just manifest it, dude,
just like snap it.
But.
But I just think about thatkind of thing and I think about
he's literally the creator ofthe universe and he's on an

(01:11:52):
assignment, and then some justrandom person comes to him like
motivated by faith, and they'rejust random person comes to him
like motivated by faith andthey're like grabbing a hold of
him, they're not going to lethim go until he heals them, or
like they're petitioning him forsomething.
And that word Greek word isspagnizimae, which is basically

(01:12:12):
talking about your intestines,like your guts, being like
wrencheded, like someone'sgrabbing a hold of you, like we
would say like our hearts kindof turning our chest, but it's
like a physical.
A physical like uh, urge, uh, ina sense he's, he's moved by
compassion and I think you know,circling back to I said before,
uh, I have to see myself in him.

(01:12:35):
That's the departure point.
If I'm not able to do that,then it's all about me and my
ego is not going to allow mydignity to take a hit.
And you listed off all thesefruits of the Holy Spirit.
Dignity is not a fruit of theHoly Spirit.
Prosperity is not a fruit ofthe Holy Spirit, irregardless of
what Joel Osteen is saying.
It's not a fruit of the HolySpirit, irregardless of what

(01:12:57):
Joel Osteen is saying.
And every other thing I saw theother day would say every
breath that you suck in is mercyand, like you know, everything
is a gift, irregardless of whatyou know, the hardships of life
that we face.
But in that like of me seeingmyself in him, I have to see Tim
in him.

(01:13:18):
And if I'm not able to do that,then I'm in opposition really
of being able to transcend,being able to grow within my own
life.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
Because I'm going to stay by the prejudice.
But if you want to defineprejudice, that is what it is.
If you cannot see me in god orgod in me, if I mean, we can
talk about theorists at adifferent time and then the
nature of becoming one with god,but but if?
But if you cannot see that orso, so if I cannot see you as a
person who is women in god, as ageneric group of people, or my

(01:14:22):
wife or whatever else is, I'mfoundationally sexist.
Because what?
Because what happened is there,and this is what I would say
the root of prejudice is is thatyou cannot see someone as god
sees them, but also you cannotsee that they are created in the
image and they reflect God.
In that sense, and I think thatfor me personally, what you've
defined there is the foundationof federal prejudice.

Speaker 3 (01:14:45):
Yeah, well, again, you have to hold things in the
tension and context of themoment, the moment that you and
I are living in right now, ineternity.
And so if we talk aboutforgiveness, we talked about
forgiveness, justice,reconciliation.
Forgiveness really only findsits real context in those two

(01:15:05):
lenses, cause if, if I think,right now, the moment that you
and I are sharing, that's allthat exists, not the past, not
the future, then I'm verycompelled to forgive you.
But if I'm holding intentioneverything that has happened
between us and I'm bringing thatup as an account of all the
things that Tim has done becauseTim's an awful person to me,

(01:15:26):
he's done to me I'm holding yourlist of wrongs.

Speaker 2 (01:15:29):
Or that I represent someone who is an awful person
to you.

Speaker 3 (01:15:33):
For sure.
And then I'm thinking in thefuture of like.
I'm going to withhold myself,withhold things, withhold
opportunities from you, becauseI am not willing to forgive and
reconcile with you.
And so I have to be holding onto the future and the past in a
very tight, fisted way for menot to like, let myself hold you

(01:15:57):
, but I have to be holding on.
I have to pick a point.
I have to pick a point when Istarted keeping score in the
past and I have to pick a pointof like in the future and I have
to omit my own faults andcapacity for evil.
I'll just like you.
You kind of skirt around around.
I'll just say it straight uplike we have.
We have gold inside of us, butwe also have snakes inside of us

(01:16:20):
in some degree or capacity.
Um, and then so I'm.
I'm thinking about the presentmoment.
That's where forgiveness andlove really finds its its true
context as being in the moment,but then also eternity.
And it seemed like I rememberfrancis chan did this demo at
his church one time as an objectlesson.
He had a big rope and he likedid this little, like sliver of

(01:16:40):
tape on the rope and he's likethis is when you were born and
this is when you died, and likehe just had this rope and it was
like on and on and on aroundthe church.
He's like and that's eternity.
And he's like so you're reallyjust gonna hold on to this thing
, um, whatever.
And so like when you're like,yeah, but tim, you don't
understand how bad that hurt,and it's like let me validate

(01:17:02):
you do have an endocrine system,but your endocrine system is an
alarm system.
Protect you from future.
Uh, pain, violence, you knowthings you're afraid of.
That's what it's for.
It's an it's alarm system andwhen that alarm system is like,
there's a thought pattern thatgets ingrained from that alarm
system and then everythingtriggers you.

(01:17:23):
It's a faulty alarm system.
At that point it was supposedto do a job but the wires got
crossed, and so if everything'striggering you, your endocrine
system is lying to you.
It's not your master, it's notyour master, it's not your mind.
It's an alarm system and peopleare driven by their alarm
systems and in Western culture,specifically in America, we've

(01:17:46):
been conditioned to believe Ishouldn't feel pain.
Our doctors have even said that, like when your doctor gives
you a plan of action if you havea procedure here, they've
convinced people that you justshouldn't feel any pain.
So, hey, I'm going to drug youup before the operation.
I'm going to drug you up afterthe operation, I'm going to give
you a narcotic pain opioid andsend you home with it so you

(01:18:07):
don't feel any pain.
And then lo and behold whathappens when you flood your body
with opioids for extendedperiod of time, when you stop
taking them, what do you feel?
Pain?
So you're addicted to notfeeling pain.
America it.
We have the highest rate of uh,anti-psychotic uses in the world
.
Like it is astronomical, of howmany people take anti-anxiety

(01:18:31):
and anti-depressive medication.
And if you, um, I'm not likedogging anybody for this, I
could just say for myself when Iwas in my 20s, I felt like I
was depressed.
I take these medications andthen I just have a brain between
my ears.
I look on the bottle and itsays side effects, suicidal

(01:18:52):
thoughts, homicidal thoughts,psychotic.
So I'm like these pillsidalthoughts psychotic.
So it's so.
I'm like, well, these pillsjust make me feel numb, they
make me feel not, they are nothappy pills.
I don't take these pills andthen feel happy.
I just don't feel anything.
They're blunting me and so.
So anyways, just to wrap that upis that we get into this mode

(01:19:13):
of like.
We're not.
We don't want to experiencepain, fear, any kind of
discomfort.
We want comfort and pleasure.
And then we create this wholeecosystem of what we're talking
about, of how do I relate toother people, and I get into my
little echo chamber and I getinto my safe space and we're
building this whole thing so wecan maintain that worldview.

(01:19:36):
And what's so provocative aboutchristianity is god is coming in
and saying your worldview sucksand it's not.
It's not like I'm attacking you,it's I'm your dad, and right
now, what you're doing is goingto lead you to a place you don't
want to be, but you won't knowuntil you get there.
And so I'm telling you ahead oftime, because I've seen like

(01:19:57):
life play out for billions ofpeople and you're not, and I
told people this, gave thispreach the other day and I said
anything that you'reexperiencing, whatever it's been
, if you, if you've experiencedrape, if you've experienced
abuse from your parents, if youexperience addiction, if you
experience just fill in theblank there's been billions of

(01:20:19):
people who came before you whoexperienced the same thing.
Some of them have never beenable to overcome that thing
because the war in their mindand they succumb to suicide,
they succumb to drugs, theysuccumb to whatever fill in the
blank.
But there's been other peoplewho transcended that and made
something absolutely beautifulout of their lives.

(01:20:40):
And sometimes there's thingsthat destroy our lives, they
completely shatter us.
But God gives us the ability topick up the pieces and build
something different.
And you have to make the choiceof what are you gonna do.
I'm not saying that's easy, I'msaying that's very, very hard,
but it's still a choice and,like to your point, you're not
going to be able to do that, uh,within yourself, because you

(01:21:00):
can't save yourself and anywaysyou have to have people around
you who will pass through andlook after you.

Speaker 2 (01:21:06):
So it's not like, hey , you're on your own, get over
it.
That's not the message.
The message is hey, listen,that's freaking awful, and I've
never that.
All I can tell you is that Ibelieve that there is a
narrative in the Bible that saysthat, no matter what has
happened in your life, you canovercome and be redeemed or be

(01:21:29):
healed.
But I'm not saying off, you goand do it.
I'm saying I'm here, I'm yourpriest, I'm the one that stands
in the gap for you when youcannot do it on your own.
I'm here, I'll put my armaround you, I will cry with you,
I will laugh with you, I willjourney with you.
That's community, that'sChristianity.

(01:21:50):
So it's not simply like you'veexperienced this and you've
experienced this pain and Godsays you're going to be, you
will be well.
He works all things for yourgood.
I'm going to prove that Goddoes that by being the one who
walks this journey out with you,if you'll have me.
So it's because we are not justthe ones who bring the truth of

(01:22:12):
God and the truth of scripture,we're the ones that enact the
truth of God and enact the truthof scripture, which is why we
have to have pastors as well asteachers.
We have to have people who love, people who will spend hours
and hours with people, as wellas people who spend hours and
hours in scripture to try andfigure out what the Lord is

(01:22:33):
saying.
And I think, and I think likefor me, there's something so
significant about this painthing, because obviously we know
that social media really is thenew numbing agent of our time
the death scolding and the doomscolding.
And I mean, I know so many kidswho are 20 to 25 who are just
completely like numb.
But they're completely numb,they live in an alternative

(01:22:57):
reality.
Obviously, the students in ourchurch we've got 400 students,
200 rock up every Thursday.
They're a crazy bunch, butthey're none.
They don't know how to worship,they don't know how to lay down
their dignity, they don't knowhow to raise their hands, they
don't know how to move, theydon't know how to do anything
except think about what theperson next to them is thinking
about them.
And it's really interestingbecause that's what social media

(01:23:21):
does.

Speaker 3 (01:23:21):
Yeah, that's true, that's true, but but you know,
very short, I do not what theperson next to me.
I haven't.
What the person thinks next tome is none of my business within
within the bounds of a reason.
What I'm not saying is I don'thave a responsibility to Tim or

(01:23:44):
my wife and the relationshipthat we have, and like I'm going
to be an ass.
That's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying to your point, whatyou think about me, tim is none
of my business, because I'mactually performing for the
audience one, and that's notpermission to be like super
weird, and just how weird can Ibe?
Or whatever.
But it's like if I, if I livein that realm, I have to perform

(01:24:06):
for tim every day.
But the reality that we know isthat, no matter what I do, me
and tim are going to diverge onpoints and like I could be
perfectly trying to perform fortim and at some point I might
get rejected and the audiencefor one.

Speaker 2 (01:24:21):
It's important because, basically, in the
audience for one, you're cut,you're told to prioritize more,
so so that's the whole purposeof the audience for one is that
I'm not performing for anything,I'm in love and I'm connected
and that love overflows aroundme.
So I don't care what you thinkabout me, but I really care
about you, and it's a reallyimportant shift.
But when we talk about numbingpain, I actually think there's

(01:24:45):
some pain that shouldn't exist.
I think there's some pain thatshould not exist.
I think that if you're in painbecause you're sick, I think
that God brings healing to that.
Now that is sick.
I think that god brings healingto that.
Now, that is not to say that hebrings healing, um, so that you
avoid pain, um.
I think that there is somethingreally powerful in this story
and this is the last thing Ihave to say, bro, because I've

(01:25:06):
got to run um, but, but there'sbut.
There's something reallypowerful in this story of pain,
because I think the the.
So if we take the example ofpeter, peter goes through two
storms.
One storm he's called to walkthrough.
The other storm he's deliveredfrom, so so what I'm saying is

(01:25:26):
is that um, the, the, the in the, the disciples are delivered
from a storm.
But in one storm um the, the,the sea is calm and they're
completely fine.
In the other storm, peter hasto walk through it, he has to
come to jesus, he has to say,okay, I'm walking through the
storm.
So I do think that there issome pain that we're delivered

(01:25:47):
from.
If there is some pain that wehave to walk through and the
issue is in our culture is thatwe are told that you should
never experience pain.
But here's the deal.
Listen and this is why the jaychristian ethic is so important
moses, the hero of the faith.
Yeah, what's next?

(01:26:09):
What happens to him?
He is about to get killed.
He gets put in bull rushes.
He goes to throw his daughter.
He goes back to his mum, jackand beg, because miriam walks
alongside him, says I know awoman who can look after this
kid.
Then, at the age of four or five, he goes back into the pyramid
I'm not pyramid, sorry, thepalace, not the pyramid.
He goes back into the palaceand he's raised as an egyptian.

(01:26:30):
But somewhere he knows thathe's a hebrew.
Of course he does.
And so he kills an Egyptianwho's beating a Hebrew slave.
Why?
Because he tries to take thedestiny that's already been in
his life into his own hands andtake the law into his own hands.
He tries to take justice intohis own hands and he tries to
create justice by killingsomeone else.
What happens?

(01:26:50):
He spends 40 years in thewilderness as a shepherd by
himself, until when heexperiences the glory of God in
the fire that does not consumehim, the burning bush, where he
takes off his sandals.
But here's the deal.
He then goes for a very shortperiod of time back to Pharaoh,

(01:27:12):
gets the Israelites out and thenspends 40 more years in the
wilderness walking around.
And then what?
He doesn't even get in thepromised land.
How much pain, how muchisolation, how much wilderness

(01:27:38):
has that man experienced?
But he's the hero.
Why?
Because he walked through thepain with God as a friend, and
even though he never experiencedthe fullness of the promise of
the people that he was given tooversee and lead, he walked a
journey, faithful despite pain.
And why is that important?
Because the glory of God ismade manifest in the pain that
you're not meant to avoid.
So the glory of God is mademanifest in the burning bush.

(01:28:01):
The glory of God is mademanifest in the 12 plagues of
Egypt where the Israelites aredelivered.
The glory of God is mademanifest as he is in the tent of
meeting and the cloud descendsand he speaks to God face to
face, which, by the way, isJesus Christ incarnate in the
Old Testament.
Won't go into that right now,but not only that the glory of

(01:28:21):
God is made manifest in thetabernacle, where the cloud
departs and all the fire departsand leads the Israelites and
places them in a geographicallocation for the next stage of
their journey.
The glory is made manifest whenMoses hits the staff on the
rock and water comes out.
The glory is made manifest whenJoshua sits in the tabernacle

(01:28:45):
in the glory of God, learninghow to be delivered from the
slavery inside of him.
So this is the reallyinteresting narrative that for
40 years Moses lives around thedesert.
Why?
Why is it that the Israelitesgo from slavery to the
wilderness?
because you can emancipatesomeone from slavery, but

(01:29:08):
actually, they have to get theslavery delivered from in them,
because if you're going toinherit the promised land, you
have to walk through the pain ofthe hurt and the trauma in
order that you get the royalmindset.
It's why two things, threethings the world cannot bear up,
the first of which is this aservant who becomes king.
Why?
Because if you cannot walkthrough pain and cannot walk

(01:29:33):
through being a servant intobeing royal, then what happens
is that you cannot inherit thepromised land because you can't
defeat the giants there.
And Moses spends 80 years inthe wilderness and still doesn't
inherit the promised land.
And this is why theJudeo-Christian ethic is so
powerfully important for now,because the heroes of that faith

(01:29:55):
don't numb pain.
They couldn't.
They don't minimize pain, theydon't try and skirt around the
wilderness experience.
They say god, even in thismoment, I believe that your
glories may manifest in me and Iwill lead these people to a

(01:30:16):
place where it's not about me,but it is about the legacy of my
children and my children'schildren.
And the foundational narrativeof the Judo Krishna ethic is
this it's not about you, it'sabout your kids and their kids.
So what are you creating?
You creating a hedonisticlifestyle for yourself and

(01:30:36):
rejecting your responsibility tobuild a legacy, which means
that you have to walk throughpain.
Or are you actually going tothink about okay, I'm going to
walk this journey, so my kiddoesn't have to, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna get.
I'm gonna get on with my lifeand make money, not because I
want to be rich, because I wantto set my kids up for the future

(01:30:56):
.
Like, where's our motivation?
The jihad christian ethic isthe only answer to that
motivation to two incomes.

Speaker 3 (01:31:05):
No kids, tim.
That's the answer.
Live your life well.
The the entire story.

Speaker 2 (01:31:12):
I mean, oh no, that's a joke, but but it's absolutely
.

Speaker 3 (01:31:15):
But that's mindset.

Speaker 2 (01:31:17):
Dude, until you're married and have children,
you're the most selfish personon earth, because you have no
idea how to live for anybodyapart from yourself.
The reason why God set God,chris, adam and Eve together and
then says go forth and multiply, we'll go back to creation.
Go forth and multiply.
Is this because you then haveto communicate and co-labor with
your wife or your husband, andyou have to die to what you

(01:31:41):
think that you want and you haveto do things together.
And then you have to have kids,which kills you even further
because basically, you have tolay down the entirety of your
life for these crazy, dependent,nutty human beings that really
can give you nothing in returnapart from a sweet smile that
makes your tummy go funny.

Speaker 3 (01:31:59):
I'm saying like there's something really
powerful about marriage andchildren you know, to
encapsulate the entirety of whatyou just said there, there's a
passage where you're aware, likemoses has, people are getting
bit by snakes, they're begginggod, you know the whole bit
right.
So he raises up the staff andthe snake and he makes them look
at it.
And peterson parallels this tohis practice where he said he

(01:32:22):
had a client who was deathlyafraid of needles uh, couldn't
be around needles.
So I don't remember what theycall the therapy exactly, but
basically he he would bring theneedle into the room.
He had wrap it in a cloth andhe just let the person know hey,
before you come into the room,the room, there's a needle in
there, it's wrapped in a cloth,it's on this table.
Just do your word, you want tocome in.
They're like yes, so you haveto like invite the person to

(01:32:48):
look at the snake, look at thething, so they come in.
He said the next session Iwould bring it on the table and
I like be poking them on theskin with the needle and over
time you take the cap off andget it close to them, and so it
was about being forced to be init and then through that you're
adapting again, like when we goback to the endocrine system.
You have to train your endocrinesystem.

(01:33:09):
When Paul is talking about theflesh, it's a, it's a word
that's interchangeable.
Sometimes, when he talks aboutthe flesh, he's talking about
the old man that exists, that'snot regenerated, does not have
the Holy Spirit and dwelling init.
Sometimes he's talking aboutthe flesh, he's talking about
this meat bag that you walkaround in.
The meat bag you walk around inyour stomach is like your
second brain.
That's literally what it said.

(01:33:30):
95% of your serotoninproduction is happening in your
stomach.
Your immunosystem, likeautoimmune diseases, they come
from something.
So your endocrine system is aalarm system that's inside of
you and you.
If you have not been trained andhave not trained yourself on
how to curb that and control it,it will control you.

(01:33:52):
And so then when you say we, wecrucify the dictates of the
flesh, we're talking about yourhorniness, your hungriness, your
tiredness, those things.
And like, what do we do?
Well, we practice celibacyuntil marriage.
What do we do?
We fast to like curb that.
What do we do, you know?
So we forego, forego sleep topray.
There's some principles ordisciplines that you can do to

(01:34:15):
help you curb that, hold plunges.
You know that's a great one.
So the snake thing was one, theother thing just quickly on the
snake thing.

Speaker 2 (01:34:24):
And then, obviously, in john 3, jesus says behold, as
the snake was raised in thewilderness, so the son of man
will be raised for the healingof all mankind.
So jesus is saying that, justas to overcome the greatest fear
in your life, you must confronthim if you want to be healed

(01:34:44):
from the poison of the world,the poison of injustice, the
poison of all of those things.
You must look at me, cross,yeah, you must look at the cross
and the son of man who iscrucified, because it's in that
moment that you realize you canbe delivered and redeemed yeah,
and I didn't like throw it inthere, but just for context,

(01:35:06):
people don't know that story.

Speaker 3 (01:35:07):
The people still got bit by snakes while they were
looking at the snake on the pole.
They were still getting bit.
So they were not to tim's pointdelivered, they were like
experiencing it.
And I think when people arechronically sick, I had a with
my um what, my daughter's gone.
We had this conversation but uh, she has an autoimmune disease
and we talk she's one of themost joyful people I know and we
talk about that that in thechurch sometimes you're

(01:35:29):
conditioned to think that God issomehow not in the situation if
you don't get a healing orwhatever.
But it's like god is in thatsituation with you and I think
job would be another story ofthat.
When we anyways, we can go onanother round.

Speaker 2 (01:35:43):
But one of the craziest things is you can't be
healed unless you're sick.
Yeah, so, so, so, so.
And when jesus goes and he wasthe guy who's blind the
disciples like well, whose sinis this?
Is his sin or is his parents in?
It's like well, it's nothing todo with sin.
Jesus says it's the fact thatthe god's, god's glory is about
to get revealed.
And what's really important isis that our immune system is
designed to get sick so that weget better.

(01:36:06):
It's crazy, it's nuts.
If you just think about thatjust for a minute.
Our immune system only getsstronger if we get sick.
Why is that important?
It's not because sickness isthe thing that defines us.
It's because healing comes.
It's because we get healed as aresult of processing sickness
with the lord.
That's the whole point.

(01:36:28):
Even our physical symptoms ofsickness are for us to say jesus
, I hate this, but I know thatthe only way you can heal me is
if I accept this and not acceptthat somehow you'll be defined
by it, but that this is theprocess that God can be for
God's glory.
It's foundational.
The narratives are insane inChristianity if you actually
look for them.

(01:36:48):
Anyway, do you have something?

Speaker 3 (01:36:50):
Yeah.
So just to wrap up to yourpoint, there is an adaptation
phase that we have to go through, even through deliverance Like
my wife went through some prettymassive deliverance when she
came to Laura.
And like we're talking aboutsometimes a decade worth of like
process and we don't likeprocess and you just alluded to
like 40 years.
But like people are not.
That doesn't.
That's a hard thing to sell.

(01:37:10):
It's an easy thing to sell.
Like hey, say these magic wordsand all your bad feelings go
away and they're replaced withgood ones and life just
incrementally improves.
You're just scaling, you know,quality of life from here,
versus like hey, say these wordsand believe this and you're
going to get into this process.
And I remember you know we weretalking about Moses doing all

(01:37:31):
that and not really entering,and not entering the promised
land.
I remember a conversation thatme and my mentor I first started
following Jesus had and he said, when he was in university,
this big name, he was doing hismaster divinity, this big name
speaker came and he was talkingabout all this stuff and you

(01:37:51):
know theological stuff aboutheaven, you know theological
stuff about heaven.
And the guy who mentored mejust said you know, if all, if
this is all that, there wasmeaning that we just live in
earth and when we die likenothing would happen, like
that's all that we have.

(01:38:11):
But I get to know Jesus in thislife.
It's enough for me, right?
And everybody kind of likelooked at him weird and like me
and him both started crying whenhe said that.
Because unless somebody knowswhat it's like to be lost, then
you don't really know what it'slike to be found.
And I can say, even like withhealth stuff, there's times
where I've had health, chronickind of health issues, and then
I go through a treatment orsomething and then I start

(01:38:34):
feeling normal.
But it normal feels like waybetter because my normal is so
bad.
And we were like very emotional, even like in that time when he
was telling me the story,because we got it, we
experienced the love of God andwhen you talked about Moses, he
experienced God firsthand.
And I remember Francis Chan madethis statement where he said

(01:38:56):
the church he said the churchhas been conditioned, that
heaven somehow is the goal, likepostmortem, like getting to
this place is the goal and it'sreally about knowing God.
And he said let me paint itthis way, if you could, at when
you die.
You have all your favoritepeople, you have all your
favorite food, you have all yourfavorite leisure activities,
you have all the naturalbeauties of the world, but you

(01:39:17):
have no pain, no war, nosickness, no conflict.
If you could have that placeforever without Jesus, would you
have it?
And I think like this is goinglike completely another
direction.
We'll wrap up now, but, but Ithink, like when you, when you
told me that story, that waswhat was really provoked within
me I was remembering back tositting across.

(01:39:38):
I can remember it likeyesterday, sitting across the
desk and us like just nodding ateach other, like for us this is
enough, this is enough, but ifsomebody has not really
encountered Jesus, that would bea very perplexing statement
because it's like, well, what doyou, what do you mean?
Like that that's the whole goalof this thing.

(01:40:03):
But it's really relationship,because if you're content not
not having relationship, nothaving burning bush, not on the
mountaintop, uh, you would havehim be kind of boring in a sense
.

Speaker 2 (01:40:11):
Um, but I do, I'm pretty good.
All right, man, because sorrydude, because I've got to go
home get the kids, um, but yeah,let's do it again next week
yeah, we'll get intoconfirmation bias yeah, cool.
Thanks, bro, for your time it'srun.

Speaker 3 (01:40:28):
It's really fun, it's great yeah, yeah, all right,
man, go be with your family loveyou buddy cheers okie dokie.

Speaker 1 (01:40:39):
That's a wrap.
Big shout out to tim for comingon, dropping some serious
knowledge and some truth bombson us.
If this conversation made youthink or it helped you see
things in a new way, do us asolid and share it with someone
else who you think would dig itas well.
Reach out.
Reach out via social media.
That's what it's for beingsociable.
So let us know specific stories, insights, questions.

(01:41:03):
We have not arrived, we neverclaimed to have arrived, but we
love feedback and hearing fromyou.
So thanks for hanging for us.
We'll see you next time on themap.

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