The Poverty Paradox: Why Your Handout Might Be Someone's Handcuffs

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
You ever notice how some folks talk about poverty
like it is just about money,Like if you could hand somebody
a check, that problems are justgoing to disappear.
But many people don't stop andask what's actually underneath
that, Like how did people getthere, why do they stay there
and what would it really take toget someone out?
In this episode, me and myfriend Ethan Bricker dig into it

(00:25):
, Not with some polishedfeel-good charity talk, but the
kind of honesty that stings alittle bit but also might be
healing something.
If you let it, we talk aboutpoverty like it really is.
Sometimes it's bad luck,Sometimes it's a broken system
and sometimes it's a mindsetthat gets passed down like a

(00:45):
family recipe for fear andsurvival.
And look, we all have a part toplay as society, as neighbors,
as people of faith.
We got to wrestle with how torespond, Not just throwing money
at the problem, but leaninginto and cultivating real
stewardship, the kind that sayswe've been given something and

(01:06):
we're responsible in how we useit, not just for ourselves but
for each other.
You'll hear stories about folkstrying to walk out community
Not perfectly, but honestly andpeople sharing what they've got,
asking hard questions, learninghow to help without turning it
into some power game.
We talk about generosity,burnout hard questions, learning

(01:26):
how to help, without turning itinto some power game.
We talk about generosity,burnout boundaries and what
happens when love isn't backedby wisdom.
And look, it's no secret.
We're living in a time whereeverybody is shouting, nobody's
listening, everything'spolitical, everybody's offended
and it feels like you have topick a side just to say

(01:47):
something.
But somewhere in all that noisethere has to still be room for
honest questions and maybe evena shot at understanding each
other, not by watering down thetruth, but learning how to carry
it with both conviction andcompassion.
Truth doesn doesn't bend toopinion, it just is.
And the pursuit of truth at itsbest is a pursuit of justice,

(02:09):
and I mean real justice.
That's not about punishment orsettling scores or vengeance.
That's about reclamation, aboutreconciliation, about
transcendence and redemption,and it's about returning what
was lost or raising up what wasbroken into something higher.
Obviously, we live in a worldthat's shaped by human nature,

(02:31):
and so it's messy, it's limited,it's full of a lot of
trade-offs.
So we walk that tightrope inthis conversation.
We aim high, trying to walkhumbly, but that's the tension
this conversation tries to hold.
Humbly, but that's the tensionthis conversation tries to hold.
So if you're someone whowrestles with those kinds of
questions and you're trying todo that without losing sight of
people in the middle, this one'sfor you.

(02:53):
Welcome to the map.
I'm glad that you jumped on meand you were kind of going back
and forth and there was a guywho I'm great friends with and
kind of discipling.

(03:14):
He reached out to me with aquestion.
It was kind of a funny question.
So me and him both are in likethe Medicare and ACA space and
we deal a lot of times with alot of low income um people
trying to guide them throughthat, that space.
And um, he just says hebasically said like hey, I'm
reading through James and uh, Ijust want to know, like, do you

(03:36):
think that you know people inpoverty now are worse than
people who are in poverty inthat time?
Cause, like in James, you know,and there's this instruction
about taking care of people whoare poor.
And he's like because he's likejust the people I deal with now
are so despicable.
So I was like okay, it's aninteresting question.
And my parents have they've rana ministry that was basically

(04:01):
like a food pantry and theydeliver.
It's like kind of like a Mealson Wheels as well.
On the weekends they delivermeals.
It's oftentimes the olderpeople who are, uh, financially
deprived.
But then, um, they have a foodpantry where people come in
hygiene products, clothes, theyget backpacks away to like
school kids and stuff like that.
That's a year-round thing.
And so then I asked my dad thequestion I'm like, what do you
think?

(04:21):
And and my dad just kind ofsaid well, you of course always
want to have safety nets inplace to protect people.
But his observation now, afterdoing this for about 20 years,
is they started servicing andhelping people and then their
kids started coming and then thechildren of those people
started coming.
So now they're into threegenerations of poverty.

(04:43):
And so he just had this wholeconversation around poverty as a
, as a circumstance, but thenpoverty as a mindset and then
within, like the biblicalnarrative.
You know, at that time humannature is human nature.
I'm sure there were swindlerswho, like you know, there's this
movie, uh called trading placeswith eddie murphy and uh akroyd
.
Have you ever seen that movie?

Speaker 2 (05:03):
no, I don't think I've seen that one.
Maybe I have.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
It's from the 80s, you would enjoy this comedy film
.
But basically Dan Ackroyd workson Wall Street.
Eddie Murphy is just thisstreet guy.
He's kind of a swindler, and sohe was acting like he was blind
but also like he had no legs.
So he's sitting on this box ofwheels, he's yelling, and then
the cops just come and they grabhim by the arms and pick him up
and then his legs drop and he'slike, oh my God, I have legs.

(05:29):
And he takes his grab I can see, praise the Lord.
And then he just took offrunning.
But in the film the partners inthis firm end up pushing Dan
Aykroyd out and then they had abet with each other that anybody
could do his job, and so theyget Eddie Murphy in there and
then they groom him and turn himinto this really successful.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
It's like a comedy of the pursuit of happiness with
Will Smith.
That's what you're describingright now.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
Yeah, it's a good film, but it kind of highlights
that point of like people arepeople, are people.
And like the rich people werelike swindling people.
And then he's swindling people.
But anyways, yeah, I kind ofjust like went back and forth
with Derek on the principle oflike.
That it is like a little bitsubjective because we see the

(06:20):
person of Jesus actuallyrebuking people.
After he's like, the crowdstarts following him and he's
like literally saying the onlyreason you guys are showing up
is just to get resources from me.
And it's not that I have aproblem with like, giving you
food to eat.
It's just that that's not thehighest priority.
There's a list of priorities.
There's a priority about yourwell-being and your soul and
your spirit, and then I'm tryingto feed that part of you and

(06:43):
you're not consuming that you.
All you want to consume isbread and fish, and it's going
to be an issue.
And then, when the, the, this,whenever there's this
extravagant act where the, wherethe lady breaks the, the
perfume bottle which is likeabout a year's wage, that kind
of perfume, Judas, judas, whowas already like laundering.

(07:08):
It was already poor.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
He's poor, poor in mindset.
You know that's that, povertymindset.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah yeah, but people like just kind of like throw it
out there, that judah judas wasprobably like already like um,
embezzling money from the fundsanyways, but he was like, oh, we
could have took this money andused it for the poor, and and j
said, like poverty is alwaysgoing to be a thing, like you're
not actually ever going to getrid of poverty, and so, you know

(07:33):
, this begs the question did hemean like circumstantial poverty
?
Did he mean like the spirit ofpoverty, the mindset that kind
of feeds into that, that makesit generational?
Or did he mean both?
I don't know, but I'd love tokind of hear your I know I threw
a lot at you, but your hot takeon that.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
No, I've got a few thoughts on that.
I mean so as a pastor.
What I have seen and honestlyit's been I think the reason why
so many pastors get kind ofjaded pretty quickly is they've
they see how they see how peopleuh kind of take advantage of
the resources of the church ortheir brothers and sisters.

(08:14):
Um, and this is just myexperience, so I'm only speaking
for me, but I've seen people umcome into the church and say
you know, we can't pay her, wecan't pay her rent, we can't pay
her utilities, we're going tobe homeless if we don't pay her
rent.
Um, and then we, you know,we'll, we step up to to help and
assist with that rent.

(08:34):
And then a few weeks later wefind out, you know, that that
person just went and boughtBrandon Lake tickets and they're
they're like we're going tolittle Caesars arena here, you
know, and and, uh, and and.
Then there's other circumstanceswhere it's kind of like a
repeat thing, where it's likewhere I've seen people they talk
about going to this church andthen they get some help and then

(08:58):
eventually the pastor says I'mnot going to keep helping you.
So they change churches andthey do the same thing.
Then they change churches andthey do the same thing.
And then they come to me andthey're like, yeah, I went to
this church, they wouldn't helpus out, like they helped us a
few times but they won't help usanymore.
And there is this like kind ofthis, like it's what you're
talking about.
It's this repeat cycle ofpoverty, this mindset of of just

(09:23):
not stewarding finance as well,and that I don't I don't
necessarily equate that to justthis person's an idiot and
they're they're just trying tobe difficult, they're trying to
be a leech.
You know, I definitely don'tthink that's the case.
I think that a lot of peopledon't have mothers and fathers
who have taught them how to, howto steward their finance as
well.
They've not been in a culturewhere, um, the idea of savings

(09:46):
or emergency fund or anythinglike that isn't is a even on the
radar for them.
But, um, I, I've just, I'veseen people just live in the
cycle.
So, like one of the things westarted doing as a church is if
we are going to help you pay abill, you know you're part of

(10:06):
our church.
That's kind of a big thing toofor us, is it's like you need to
be part of our community,because it's kind of that acts
acts for thing of like, we holdall things in common for those
who are in common with us, like,if you are in common with us in
the sense that you're goingafter the same goal, you're here
, part of this community, you'rebeing discipled, you're being
equipped, you're also beingcorrected, um, and trained up in

(10:28):
righteousness, um, those,that's kind of the thing where
we we say, okay, we're, we'regoing to help you with this, but
we're also going to give youthis Dave Ramsey, uh, total
money makeover book.
And and the next time you comein and I just tell people, hey,
the next time you come and askme for money, I'm going to ask
did you go through this wholebook with your spouse?

(10:49):
Are you guys actually budgeting, are you?
You know what I mean?
Cause, for me, it's like it'sgood to give, to be generous,
it's good to help, but it's alsoit's what's better is to teach
people how to handle theirfinances well, but, uh, our
biblical theology professor thisweek actually said this and was
like man that's so helpful.
He was talking about how, whenJesus says help the poor, or

(11:12):
James talks about helping thepoor, and there's that Matthew
25, you know I was thirsty, yougave me a drink, I was naked,
you gave me clothes, I was injail, you'd visited me, and
those different things.
There's an expectation that thegood news is also being
preached as well within thatcontext.

(11:33):
And so, like my biblicaltheology professor said, helping
someone's great, but fillingsomebody's bank account doesn't
actually help their soul, andthere is kind of this level of
like great, you filledsomebody's bank account doesn't
actually help their soul.
Um, and, and there is kind ofthis level of like great, you
filled somebody's bank account,but money is temporary, money is
going to be here and then it'sgoing to be gone.
You're going to spend it andit'll be gone.

(11:54):
Like, so it's great you canhelp somebody for a moment, but
what's better is to lead someoneout of poverty and into a
mindset or a life of being ableto steward their resources well,
and I think part of that startswith it starts with the gospel.
You know, for me, in the idea oflike, like, yes, a hundred

(12:15):
percent, if you were hungry oryou were thirsty, of course it's
no questions asked, you aregoing to get help.
However, you know there'sthere's also the that you're
going to be hungry tomorrow.
You're going to be thirstytomorrow.
What I want is for you toexperience the bread and the
wine that doesn't ever run out.
That's what I want you toexperience, if you can

(12:37):
experience that, that's that'snumber one priority.
And I think sometimes we ranklike our fleshly, like you know
desires and wants and needsfirst, and I think it's it's
gotta be the gospel first, thenit's gotta move into those basic
needs, and then it's a questionof how, what?
What do we have in common?

(12:58):
What?
How are we living in common?
Do you know what I mean?
Um, I heard this, this too.
A pastor was talking about, uh,uh, planting a church recently,
and he was asking this otherpastor to come over and help
them plant a church.
And he said what's the?
What's the package?
Um, like, what's the benefitspackage?

(13:18):
What's the salary?
You know those things.
And he said well, you'll sleepon my couch, and if, and, and if
I'm hungry, you'll be hungry,but if I'm full, you'll be full,
um, and I loved that statementof just like you'll, we'll be.
Everything will be in commonbetween us.
You know, if you're with us, ifyou'll be eating what I'm

(13:39):
eating, if I'm hungry, you'll behungry.
If I'm full, you'll be full Um,and I I do think that there's
there's a lack in the Christiancommunity of commonality
together, and I think that'swhere it's like.
But commonality only works whenyou're not coming into the
culture thinking what am I goingto get out of this Now?

(13:59):
What can I contribute to this?

Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah, well, I think you have like people who are
givers and people who are takers, uh, in like just kind of like
generalizing.
They gravitate towards that andwhat you're kind of hitting on
is that is the, the, theinstitution of christianity.
Like when we form like, okay,we're gonna have a building and
and we're gonna meet here and dothat In America.

(14:25):
It's very much like from aconsumer mindset, which we've
heard that like countless times,but it is literally like what
can I get out of this?
And so I've heard people, youknow, there's people who have
businesses where, literally,they just do that they audit
churches and they teach them howto be more attractive and like
where are your deficits?
They teach them how to be moreattractive and where are your
deficits?

(14:45):
And it is in the same way howsomebody who wants to make music
and they consider them anartist and they start working
with a record company you'restill producing music, but the
record company is like so theproduct sold?
Blah, blah, blah.
What do you mean?
The product, these are my songs, this is something I pour
myself into.
And so there's this weird kindof overlap of um overlap there.
And I think, like when you have,uh, you know, a group of people

(15:08):
who are pursuing, uh, a missionor a vision to like the city or
wherever they're at, that the,you commoditize the people who
you're trying to reach as well.
So it's kind of like a two, twoway street of like, how many
people can we and how manypeople can we lead to?
So you're commoditizing people,but then your institution

(15:29):
becomes the commodity.
And so being able to break thatmindset really yeah to your
point is do we have relationshipwith each other?
And I think like if you and I'veheard this saying, I'll
probably butcher it, but it'sbasically like every young
person, if they have a goodheart, should be a communist.
But every when you get older,if you have a brain between your

(15:51):
ears, you'll be support freetrade.
And the idea is just that intheory it all makes sense to
like you want to help people andyou want to have generosity,
like abundance of generosity inyour heart to help people who
have need.
But as you get older, youunderstand human nature and
there has to be like it's a gameof trade-offs and there has to

(16:11):
be some conditional elements umto that to be able to help
people.
And again, you know when we'retalking about in in the, there's
like text about when youharvest from your field, like
leave a little bit in the cornerof the border.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, you leave the whole border around the outside.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
So, to your point, we're talking about people
literally having like sustenanceto like, not die, versus like.
When we say poverty now, we'retalking about an income level,
yes, and so there's a differenceof extreme poverty, where
people do not have the basicneeds they need to sustain their

(16:49):
body, to function and live, andthey will die if they don't
have them versus like.
I am not at the income level ofa class system, so the lower,
the middle and the upper class.
And when I was in Mozambique Ihad like I don't know like six
700 international students there, and then they had like I don't
know like six 700 internationalstudents there, and then they
had like three 400 local pastorsand they were asking the
Western people or theinternational students, like, do

(17:12):
you have a house, how many carsdo your family have, like all
this stuff?
And we were like you know, youput your hand up as this many,
this many.
And then they switched and theysaid raise your hand if you had
a family member who's died fromstarvation, raise your hand if
you have a family member who'sdied from thirst.
And like, over half of thepastors raised their hand when

(17:32):
they asked these questions andit was all on purpose to just
make us aware of a lot of cheapstuff that we say in the West
and especially within, likeprosperity circles.
That stuff doesn't work whenyou're in the poorest places in
the world, when you're in likeunder suppressive regimes et
cetera.
Like this country is a moneymaking mechanism.

(17:55):
That's why it created some ofthe greatest wealth that the
world has ever known is becauseit's a money-making mechanism
and we become very centeredaround that.
But if I don't have arelationship with the person
who's giving me the money andthat person doesn't have

(18:16):
oversight on how I'm spending it, then it becomes like there's a
huge disconnect and it's like apiggy bank that I can just like
an infinite piggy bank.
But if people have a okay,ethan has given me X amount of
funds and Ethan has oversight onhow I'm spending them funds,
now I have a relationship withwhere the funds are coming

(18:37):
directly and now I have aresponsibility, what you were
kind of alluding to, earlier.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, you got right into it, yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
Responsibility, yeah, responsibility, yeah, yeah,
well, and, and so that was thekind of the thing is, I think,
as I think the majority of yourlisteners are maybe Christians,
I don't know, um, but if you'recoming from a Christian context,
the question is, what's myresponsibility?
And last month we had inDetroit, um, we had a, a mom who

(19:06):
was sleeping in her car in acar garage because she was
homeless.
She had a, like a nine year oldand a five year old, and she
woke up in the five year oldfroze to death in her car, um
and so, and, and I gathered withsome of the different pastors
in the area and, and she,they're not, they're not even

(19:26):
really in our area, they're anhour and a half away, um, but we
just, it was like we came tothe Lord and we're like God
forgive us for anything I havedone and what I've left undone.
And those are kind of theundone situations of

(19:48):
responsibility where, like, uh,right now we've been in
discussions with, like, uh,salvation Army, habitat for
Humanity, all these differentnonprofits that are in my local
area, and everybody kind of hasthe same conclusion that the
issue isn't we need moreresources.
The issue is we need theinformation to get out there of

(20:11):
what's available, and that iskind of the thing is like
America is so much richer thanevery other country.
Our poverty isn't really evenpoverty if you're taking
advantage of what's alreadyavailable to you.
So, like this mom, there weremultiple shelters she could have
gone to.
Really even poverty if you'retaking advantage of what's
already available to you.
Um, so, like this mom, therewere multiple shelters she could
have gone to.
There were multiple um placesthat could have taken her in.

(20:33):
There's multiple places thatwould have given her food and
resources and things like that.
The issue is either she doesn'tknow about these things, or um,
uh, or or it's just she has,doesn't have the resources to
get there Um, you know or it's ashame.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
There's that shame factor, you know, involved as
well, you know do you think inher specific scenario I don't
know how this works exactly, butif you rock up to like a
shelter cause you have no foodor no place to go with a five
and nine year old that she had afear like cps or somebody was
going to take her yeah, awayfrom her yeah, maybe, maybe, um,

(21:09):
I I know that, I know from fromum we, we adopted our youngest.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
I know from that experience that, um, there's a
plenty of places in detroit thatwill take in families and I
don't think you're at risk oflosing your kid, unless of
course, there's a major neglecthappening, because I just know
personally the person that weare in relationship with, that

(21:40):
she's not had those issues withher kids to our understanding.
Obviously, we're disconnectedfrom that to a certain degree.
So I don't, you know, I'm notsure, but but again, I think
that the the issue in the Westis we have an abundance of
everything, so much so that evenyou know, like Salvation Army,

(22:00):
they have this thing where yougo to the it's called the
Citadel in our.
They have this thing where yougo to the it's called the
Citadel in our.
It's their main place.
You go there and and you askfor certificates and they'll,
and they say what do you need?
And you write down everythingyou need and then you can go to
the Salvation Army and geteverything you need for free.
Um, that we have, uh, habitatfor Humanity that does the same

(22:21):
thing, where you can go in, youcan get furniture and things
like that that you're needed.
So there's, there's so muchresources out there for the poor
that some in in our contextwe're not in Sudan, we're not in
Africa, where it's like no,there's really.
Just they need the resources,they need some way, they need
administration, they need someway to get these things to them.

(22:41):
In our context, it's like it'salmost everywhere.
They need some way to get thesethings to them.
In our context, it's like it'salmost everywhere.
The issue is we either don'tknow how to get there, or I know
a big, big thing that I runinto of hearing of drug addicts
and stuff is I say hey, well,why don't you go to this shelter
?
And they can't go to thatshelter anymore because they
went there and they blew up oneverybody, they freaked out and

(23:02):
you know, and they're notwelcome back.
So some of it, too, is you justget kicked out and whatnot.
But, um, it is amazing to me asa pastor how many different
stories I hear, cause I'll hearsomeone say, oh yeah, this
person's homeless, I'm like thatperson's homeless and they have
an F-150, you know.
And I'm like like Whoa, youknow, it's like, you know, it's

(23:23):
like they're homeless but theyhave an F-150 and they have a
job and it's like our version ofhomeless is so different than
everybody else.
You know in third worldcountries, it's just so
different.

Speaker 1 (23:34):
Yeah Well, again, like I think especially I think
it's got exacerbated with socialmedia but there's been this
perpetuation that you know, you,you deserve just to be wildly
successful, um, and just likeyou have unlimited access to
money and to funds, and I don'tknow.
I think it just creates thisweird discontentment inside of

(23:56):
people.
Um, that just didn't exist asmuch, at least in our certainly
our grandparents' generation.
Um, obviously our parents'generation, like that's where
the, the philosophy came in.
Our certainly our grandparents'generation, Obviously our
parents' generation, like that'swhere the philosophy came in of
the whole market is driven bygreed which.
I feel like that's a fallacy,but it certainly is a good
marketing tool and people keeppushing that marketing tool.

(24:20):
But my dad's take on it was hesaid of course we always want to
help people.
He's just, it's just been hisobservation that anytime
anything is just given to people, it doesn't create gratitude,
seemingly, uh, and most of thepeople he sees it creates a like
a new watermark or a baselineof entitlement.

(24:41):
Well, I've, I've given this andand it's fun You've done sales
your last job.
You were in sales, right, yeah.
So every sales organizationI've been a part of has this
weird dynamic of you could set arecord, like as a group, you'd
like break a record, and nowthat becomes the baseline, like
yeah for sure yeah, we, we'venever done over 100, but now we

(25:01):
got 100.
Now we have to do that everysingle time and then, and then
it's like you get to like 150 or200 and they're like guys, we
just figured out that we had allthese limiting beliefs and it's
just like nothing in naturereally functions like this,
nothing.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
And so I feel like Dude, that's the company I
worked for that is.
It is like you are terrified ofhitting your goal at the end of
the year because they would.
They would bump your goal a tonthe next year.
So, like my best year ever Ihit.
It was five million of justthat's straight profit, five
million dollars of profit.

(25:37):
And then I get done with thatyear and I'm thinking, man, I
just crushed it, awesome.
And then my leaders come to meand it's just so greedy it's.
They come to me and they go.
They go okay, you hit 5 million, what do you want to do this
year?
And I was like 5 million andthey're like, no, it's gotta be
better, it's gotta be.
You have to grow.
Like we, our core value isgrowth.
I'm like that's great for you,but like when do we just say

(26:00):
enough is enough for us, youknow, or at least for my
contribution?
So I was like I'm doing 5million, I don't care, you know
it's so, it's it's.
There's this constant well, wehave to grow.
That's what America does.
We grow, we grow the budget, wegrow the more.
And I do want to say this that I, you know, even with everything
I said about responsibility, Ido want to say we have a

(26:21):
responsibility to the poor.
I don't want anybody to hearthis and think, oh, I don't have
a responsibility.
We all have responsibility.
But I think sometimes thatresponsibility looks like
pointing someone in thedirection of a place that is
well equipped to do the thing,because I've seen a lot of

(26:41):
people or nonprofits or churchestry to just be like oh well,
we're going to do a homelessministry, we're going to do a
soup kitchen, we're going to dothis, and we're just trying to
do something that someone downthe block is doing 10 times
better and it would be better tojust send the funds that we
want to contribute to theirmission because they're doing it

(27:03):
a ton better than us.
And I think that's like thething I see in my context is
everybody's like well, I want todo it, and then they, they want
to be the one to spearhead it,but there's already somebody in
the community just absolutelykilling it, doing it perfectly.
But we, you know, but theresponsibility just needs to be
the goal, not kind of thatinstitutionalized, like I want

(27:24):
to be recognized as the one whodid it, you know.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
And there's this like weird connection of of I want
to be known for for this, ratherthan just don't let your left
hand know what your right hand'sdoing, you know from a, from an
organizational thing yeah, Ithink like people misconstrue
like paul said, be all things toall people, meaning like try to
like get inside the head andthe heart of other people around

(27:50):
you and like empathize and havecompassion for them.
He didn't say be everything toeverybody.
And I feel like that's whatpeople try to do is like we're
gonna our church, we have thefood pantry, we have this, we
have to, and we're doing it on areally low level comparatively
to what you just said of likesomebody else who's like
crushing it.
And I've even had this, like wehad a meeting, a group of
people, as in our fellowship,they were like uh, um, yeah, why

(28:13):
don't we start this thing?
And then someone's like, yeah,but they already did that.
And I was like, well, ifsomeone's already doing it, it's
like way less energy and lift,and like you don't have to
reinvent the wheel, just govolunteer there.
If you're the one who's sayinglike let's do it, go volunteer
there and just support whatthey're doing, um, because it's
just to your point, if we'regonna, if we just looked at our

(28:33):
resources collectively in thecities that we're in and just
each individual fellowship haslike a part to play in the city
as a whole versus.
Yeah, I think, like to yourpoint, like I'm agreeing, your
church does something uniquewhere you're talking to me about
it, where you guys have asurplus board and then a needs
board and just make that likethat's part of what you were

(28:55):
talking about before, likepeople need to be aware of, like
resources that were there.
You told me kind of a coolstory about that, but maybe
share a little bit about howthat functions.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah.
So we as a church, we, when westarted, we said we are going to
make sure we have a tithe oftithe structure, Um, so
everything that's given to ourchurch 10% of the tithe is put
aside for the needs of the poorin the expansion of the gospel.
Obviously that, but it has tobe like it's like external, not

(29:26):
internal.
So we have that like structurein place to be like okay, if you
need help, we want to help you.
I know a lot of what I.
What I said earlier made itsound like I was very resistant
to helping.
It's definitely the.
It's the opposite, it's it'smore so.
That's.
I guess, if there's anything Iwant to convey, it's the
responsibility of being generous.
Is exactly what you said.

(29:46):
Where there has to be thislevel of I'm responsible for not
only being generous but alsofor do something that's going to
affect the longevity of impactin the area, um, so, anyway, so

(30:11):
that's, that's one thing we do.
But then we just started thiscommunity exchange board is what
we call it.
We're literally we're twomonths into this and you have
this a surplus side, and youhave the need side.
If you have a need, anybody inour church can do it.
You just walk up to the board,the cards are right there and
you say I need, um, I need acouch.
That was the first item on itand we had a couch.

(30:33):
So this, the single mom she hadjust, uh, basically moved out
from her, like fiance's uh houseis trying to, you know,
basically just kind of get herher life oriented towards the
Lord.
And she's like I'm moving out,I need, I need a couch.
So she puts it up there, I needa couch.
So we're like dude, we have acouch sitting in our, in our
barn that we just been sittingthere.

(30:54):
So we've got a couch.
So it was like, okay, hey,we've got a couch, come pick it
up.
Next person up she is.
She just expected nothing tohappen.
She's like I need a large men'sdepends for someone she was
caring for, like the, like adultdiapers, and she's expected
that, like there's no wayanybody in our church is going
to need this.

(31:15):
And then my mom and dad werelike dude, we've got a whole
bunch of boxes of this from whenwe were taking care of my
grandpa, and so they're like,hey, you know they connected
with her, like, hey, we've gotthat for her.
So within the same week, theselittle needs.
There they feel little, butit's all things in common where
it's like oh, you have a need,I've got that.
And then the P, there's thesurplus side, where, if you just

(31:35):
have, you're like I just don'tneed this anymore, it's been
sitting around.
I'm trying to live a life ofsimplicity, um, of less
consumeristic and more just, uh,enjoying to the fullest extent
what I already have.
Um, so the needs, the surplusboard.
You just put up anything youhave.
So there's like end tables onthere right now, there's vacuums

(31:57):
, there's a car seats that arebrand new, and you know things
like that.
So any mom, any person who'sjust like oh, I could really use
that.
They just walk up to the boardand they see the person's number
, they just text the person thatis in our church and then they
connect and they swap.
It's like facebook marketplace,but church wise, I guess you

(32:17):
know um.
So it's been really cool to see.
Um, you know we're we're verynew into it.
So there's there's definitely,like you know, it'll be
interesting to see.
I'm sure we'll get some weirdones come up.
Or it's like I need an iphoneor an I, you know, I need, you
know, uh, like who knows what?
You know?
A sauna or a, an ice bath,whatever you know who, who knows

(32:40):
what could come up on there.
So we're it's still very likewho knows what could come up on
there.
So we're it's still very likewho knows what could happen with
us where it could get weird,but so far it's been really good
.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
Well, that's you know , and I really liked that when
you shared that cause.
I think I'm just a very, like,practical person and I just feel
like having something like thatin place, cause a lot of times
people are hoarders likeespecially in our parents'
generation.
More so I feel like ourgeneration we've had to like
move so much.
A lot of us have had to movearound, so we kind of have you

(33:11):
can't, you can't just takeeverything in the sink kitchen
with you, so some people throwthings in storage.
I know people my age who likemoved around a lot.
They just kept everything instorage in their hometown or
whatever.
But most people, uh, you know,there was a point in our life
where we had two suitcases.
That was literally it.
That's all we had.
I had a big suitcase, my wifehad a big suitcase and that was
it.
So being able to help peopleoffload some of their hoard is

(33:35):
good.
And you mentioned we weretalking a little bit about
responsibility and you weretalking about not contributing
basically into a culture toperpetuate it.
We talked about generationalpoverty earlier.
So I remember like when I wasin mozambique, one of the things
that they strictly instructedus to do is never give anybody
anything.
Uh, on the street, like never,like it was like, and they

(33:58):
explained like this is literallythe poorest country in the
world.
At one point they had a 98unemployment rate.
Um, do not give anybodyanything because you're feeding
into a beggar culture and we'redesperately trying to like break
that culture.
And so it was to the point where, like, literally like, we had
like these big water bottles orjust like a plastic water bottle
and, um, you'd like drink itand it'd be finished, and then

(34:22):
the kids would want the waterbottle.
Sometimes people would fashionshoes out of it, sometimes they
would just use it themselves,like, oh, they have now a
plastic water bottle, they'llfill it up their house.
And I'd have to say no.
And then there's not trash cansregularly there, so it's like a
third world country.
So then I had to fold it up infront of them, put it in my
pocket, go walk and try to finda trash can later to put it in

(34:43):
my pocket, go walk and try tofind a trash can later to put it
in, but they were very adamantabout us not giving anybody
anything.
And then there was it.
It was quite interestingbecause, uh, they, they
understood the psychology alittle bit of westerners.
And so these kids would come upand they'd be like brother,

(35:06):
brother.
When I say kids, I mean likefive, eight, 10 years old, kind
of in this age bracket.
And they'll come up and theysay brother, brother, I'm so
hungry, give me some food.
Or, brother, give me.
I like your, like.
If you had like swimming shortsor flip-flops, whatever they
like it.
They were like please give itto me, and then I'll be like no
shorts or flip flops, whateverthey like it.
They were like, please give itto me, and then I'll be like, no

(35:27):
, I'm not going to give it toyou.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
And they're like then you're going to hell because,
yeah, and then they just quotethe scripture about if you're,
if you're, if your brother has,like doesn't have a shirt, give
it to him.

Speaker 1 (35:40):
And like all this, tony, he's a very charming kid,
he wasn't so abrasive like thatand I seen him get sandals.
Somebody went and got himsandals and he would show up
with no shoes.
He's like I need sandals.
And they got him sandals, brandnew sandals.
And then a couple of days laterI seen him talk to somebody
else and they went and got himsandals.
I was like, tony, what happenedto your sandals?

(36:07):
He's like oh, brother, I'm solittle that, uh, you know,
people beat me up and they tookmy sandals and I was like, okay,
so we're walking through thevillage, like, uh, this is like
weeks later we're walking thesandals bro I kid you not, this
kid had 28 pairs of sandals likelined up at his house.
He was just hoarding sandals andthen someone said yeah, it is a
local scam where you'll go tothe shoe guy and you'll buy it,

(36:30):
and then he'll come back andhe'll sell it back to the shoe
guy at like a limited price andthen they just like do that um I
can't fault him for it, thoughthat's, I have a little bit of
respect for that.
Yeah, I mean these are.
Yeah, it was an industriousmindset, but it's like there's
some funny texts, I mean withthe shrewd.

(36:53):
I have a guy who I'm friendswith, who he lives in New York,
works on Wall Street and we meteach other in university and we
stay in contact, but he, hereally wrestles with, uh, the
whole idea of money just ingeneral and being a Christian
and he he like, talks to me allthe time about this passage in

(37:15):
Luke, with the shrewdmoneylender, the guy who knows
he's going to lose his job, sohe just starts forgiving
everybody's debt, basicallystealing from his boss, but his
boss isn't even mad about it.
And when Jesus is saying be asgentle as doves but as wise as
serpents's, like basically like,think like this, think like a

(37:37):
snake, think like the devil,think like somebody who's trying
to get over on you, um, there,but I just, anyways, my point
with that was just that that wasa culture where actually trying
to like, just give people stuff, is feeding into a few
different things.
One it's like feeding into asavior complex of people who are
like oh, I'm coming and I'mhelping all these people who are

(37:58):
in defect below me or they needmy help.
And then it's creating apsychology in these people of
like I can elicit things that Ineed from you if I just ask or
maneuver you, and I'm nevergoing to figure out a way to
gain resources myself or my ownmerit or work or whatever it is
um, and it just perpetuates thatsituation, yeah, and then it

(38:21):
creates these weird, weird kindof dichotomies there.
And we see it like with myparents.
Do they have a?
They used to have a food truck,like they have the food truck
where they deliver the meals,like to shut in some people who
can't get out.
But they had a food truck wherethey would go and they open the
back of it and they would justserve homeless people under the
bridge.
And there was a, um, like ashelter, like you're describing,

(38:45):
where it's open 24, 7 peoplecan sleep there.
Well, it's in the middle of thecity and and they had like a
few like really hard situations,but they they basically got to
a point where they had to likeexplicitly say to every person
if there's anything you don'twant from this food, tell us
before we put it on the plate,because once we put it on the
plate, we can't, you know, putit back?

(39:06):
Yeah, because they would justsee people literally eat one
thing off the plate and thenthrow an entire plate of food
away right in front of them,like the trash cans, right by
the truck.
And so they kept telling peoplethat.
And, uh it, one day there's afamily.
It was a dad, mom, and they hadthree kids and the kids were
like, uh, 10, 7, 5, somethinglike that, and maybe it's a

(39:26):
little smaller one, fourth one.
Well, the family did that.
And then my mom you just haveto know my mom, she's like this
small frail lady, and everybodywho's doing this is like
completely volunteers, like theydon't get paid anything,
they're literally taking theirweekend off to come and give you
food.
Well, the guy threw they, theythrew the food away, the wife

(39:48):
did, I think.
And then they were like, hey,you know.
We said like don't you know,tell us ahead of time because we
can always take that food anddeliver it to somebody else,
because we always run out every,every weekend, like you know,
yeah, and then the dad startedlike belligerently cussing at
everybody in the trucks and Fyou blah, blah, and then he took

(40:09):
his plate of food and he threwit at them into the truck.
So it was like all over mymom's face, all over everybody
who's working there, and then heinstructed all of his kids to
throw their food into the truck.
So they threw their food intothe truck and so everybody who's
standing in line still waitingon food is like oh snap, like
what's gonna happen now?
yeah, well, now they can't serveany food because all of their

(40:30):
food went into, like the hotplates and stuff where that food
, so it's all contaminated yeahand I mean it was from the front
of the truck to the back, likeit was on the windshield,
everything, and so that was likekind of the final straw, like
yeah, we just don't do thisanymore, uh.
And but the the crazy thing isone of the ladies who
volunteered on the truck is a isa substitute teacher.

(40:51):
She's like in her 70s, she'sstill substitute teach.
One of the kids, uh, who didthat was in a class that she was
substitute teaching and then hesaw her and recognized her and
then began to brag to all theother kids about what he did and
what his family did they.
They still saw it as like andlike all the people in the line
were ready to like, tear themapart, the dad apart, because

(41:14):
he's like you just screwed,screwed this up for us and the
people who run that like um theshelter.
So then it just the dynamicswitch like we're gonna drop off
the food.
You guys serve it like.
So that didn't, like theydidn't cut the resource off, but
they're like we're not gonnastand there and have people
throw food and cuss at us whenwe're literally like they're
there.
So again it.

(41:35):
It so, when people talk about,there is sometimes like a
disconnect of like.
When people talk about how aresource should be distributed,
they're they're talking in thetheoretical of other people's
resources and other people'stime and how it actually makes
it to a person.
And I saw a funny uh thingwhere it was about immigration
and it's about people like weshould just have open borders

(41:57):
and let everybody in, and so theguys show up with a clipboard
and like fantastic, we agreewith you.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
Yes, how many how many, how many how many rooms do
you have?

Speaker 1 (42:05):
how many rooms you have and the people like, oh no,
not, not in my house.
It's like and like, uh, I havekids.
They'd say I have kids.
Like no, these guys love kids,it's perfect.
Like we're gonna sit there,send them to your place and so
that's kind of.
The thing is, if people becomecritical of like well, you
should just giveindiscriminately, it's like
they're thinking in the samemindset of the people who don't

(42:26):
have any relationship of wherethese funds come from.
It's like it's an infinitebucket that I need to pull out
of.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Yeah, pull out of.
Yeah, well, and if your hands,if you're, if you've never had
the responsibility yourself toget your hands dirty, it's so
much easier to just thinksomebody else will do it, and
that's that is one, one hugeproblem that I've.
I've seen, um, specifically,people that that are.
Like the amount of times thatwe've we had, we've had

(42:54):
situations where someone's like,oh hey, this person needs a
ride, can you do it?
And it's like you already knowthey have a, they need a ride
and you already have a car.
Why don't you go get them?
Like, what are you talkingabout?
Why are you trying to findsomebody else to go get them?
When you have a car, you haveall the means you need to go get
them, and it's like it's soeasy to pass off the
responsibility to someone elseand let the mess be somebody

(43:17):
else's, you know, but, man,there's so much.
There's nuance to this, too,though, because it's like the
thing I struggle with with thepoor is I think we have a
responsibility to proactivelyhelp the poor.
We have a responsibility to beresponsible with our resources,

(43:40):
and then I also think, from agospel standpoint, we also have
a responsibility to be takenadvantage of, and I think that's
something most people don'twant to think about.
But Jesus is.
When he's talking to hisdisciples, he's like hey, if
somebody smacks you in the face,offer them the other one.
Hey, if this Roman soldierwho's literally colonizing your

(44:00):
land, oppressing your people,probably murdering your people
and stealing from your people,when he says, hey, carry my

(44:31):
no-transcript, that's hard toknow when it's time to do that
and when you're just enablingreally bad behavior.
And I think that's the linethat we're always trying to
balance, or the tightrope thatwe're trying to stand on is when
am I just enabling really badbehavior?
But when is God calling me tobe unconditional and

(44:55):
indiscriminately, uh, generousto to people?
Um, we, we went down toCharleston, south Carolina, one
year and found this guy namedDamien.
He was this drunk guy in thispark, woke up we were out in the
morning in a morning strollwoke up and he's screaming in
the this park.

(45:16):
He's like his toes are comingout of his shoes you can see his
foot on the bottom of his shoeand he just like he slept in the
park, probably drunk andwhatnot.
And Lydia and I were like let'sgo take him out to breakfast.
So we're like, hey, do you, doyou want to go out to breakfast
with us?
And he's like, wait what?
And we're like, yeah, like, doyou look hungry?

(45:37):
You said you're hungry, whydon't we just go get breakfast?
And he's like, okay.
So we went out and got breakfast, heard his story you know he's
telling us all kinds ofdifferent stuff.
I don't half of it might nothave even been true.
He said he got hit by a car thenight before, things like that.
I'm like I don't know thatthat's true, but sure, um.
And then we, you know, we justfelt like led to take him and

(45:58):
buy him some new sneakers, andtake him to CVS and get
moisturizer and two, atoothbrush, toothpaste, you know
, a new sweatshirt, things likethat.
In every store we went into withhim, they all acted like oh,
you're the next suckers who gotloop roped into this.
And every single one of them.
They all looked at us like, oh,you're the next suckers who got
loop roped into this.
And every single one of them.
They all looked at us like dude, you guys are so dumb, like

(46:20):
Damien's been doing this everyday this week to a different
tourist in town, and I just feltin my heart it was like I
honestly don't care.
I don't care if this is, Idon't care if I'm being taken
advantage of by Damien, I carethat his stomach is full and he

(46:40):
has warm clothes tonight,because even if he is the worst
person on planet Earth or isjust a drunk and can't get his
life right, I will sleep bettertonight knowing he is warm and
has shoes to walk around on.
And has shoes to walk around on, you know.
And so it is just this back andforth of like just knowing when

(47:04):
is the right time and when is itnot the time.
I would struggle.
I would struggle so much inthat Mozambique situation, cause
I would just feel, oh man, thatwould be so difficult, cause I
would just feel like I want tobe obligated, I like I just want
to be inconvenienced, you know,but especially if they're using
the Bible against me.
But like, but I understand whatyou're saying, cause that's
real.
You know, if you, if you don'tlearn to go provide for yourself
, you'll never, you'll justcontinue to wait for somebody

(47:27):
else to do it for you.
You know.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
Man, well, they I mean again they they had
resources for the people there.
So it's just like, literallylike every day they're feeding
6,000 kids and they haveresources there to meet those
kind of needs.
But the kids, they know likethey want a Coca-Cola, they want

(47:50):
something more.
And the thing is is like we atethe food they ate while we were
there.
Like I ate for four months I'mjust eating rice and beans every
day.
There was no breakfast.
Breakfast they would give youthese rolls.
They were like rock hard.
You had to dip them in hot teajust to get them soft enough to
eat them and there was likelittle pieces of sand and rocks
in them.
So I had to be very careful thatI didn't like chip a tooth,

(48:12):
when I'm like eating these andlike eating these, and then it's
just rice and a plate of riceand beans and I I dropped down.
I was like one 55 when I wasthere cause it was so hot.
We're on the equator so I likewas not like emaciated, but I
mean I went from like one 80,yeah, One 85 to about one 55.
And and I was eating like therice and beans, like you know,

(48:36):
every day, but still you justyou just drop the weight.
How long were you there?
Just four months, Four months,yeah, man still.
But they've been able to buildhospitals.
They've been able to build,they have schools and things
there.
But I think what you're talkingabout that or at least I

(48:59):
struggle with this is probablythe thing I struggle the most
with.
I can't say I struggle the mostwith, but it's something I
struggle with is when Jesustalks about loving your enemies
and people who do evil to you.
I just honestly don't.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
I don't love, I don't .

Speaker 1 (49:19):
I don't, I don't.
I know that and I don't evenknow exactly what that looks
like, but you're talking about,like, for example, the Roman
soldier, that's your enemy, thatthat?

Speaker 2 (49:27):
that person.
You're a presser.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
Yeah, they're, they're.
They're crucifying people inyour community.
Outside of every single uh citythat you're going to walk into,
you're going to see peoplenaked, dying and decomposing,
because they just leave themthere after the fact as a symbol
to uh suppress any kind ofresistance, um, and to to do any

(49:49):
kind of favors for that person,um, yeah it's humiliating it's.
It's it's humiliating way, Iguess, like in a way it's
liberating.
I mean, I've seen that scene inthe Chosen where Jesus is doing
this and the disciples arelosing their minds and then the
Romans start getting, like youknow, uncomfortable about it.

(50:09):
Comparatively, I think theclosest thing that I've probably
seen to it like on a at scalewas I watched a movie about
Gandhi, which obviously there'sa lot of theatrical license that
they take, but aboutnon-aggressive resistance, where
they were outside this gate andthe British people were
literally striking them withsticks and people would fall

(50:33):
down, they'd be bleeding andthey'd just stand back up and
then it just went on for hours,dude, and then when somebody was
so damaged they couldn't takeanymore, then the next row of
people would just step up andthey just let them until the
British soldiers were exhaustedand then they eventually
liberated themselves from thatrule.
But it was like anon-aggressive kind of

(50:58):
resistance, uh, to to tyranny ina sense.
Um, but yeah, that's somethingI I struggle deeply with and and
then I guess, like in this timethat we're living in, a lot of
people you know have have kindof some people are moderates and

(51:20):
they're in a flat land, they'rekind of like disconnected.
In the sense of like I don'treally have an opinion about
this stuff, in the sense of likeI want to avoid any kind of
pervasive in the West as a whole.
I'd say like America, canada,the UK, where you have like
people who are very, very, verymuch in like one of two camps or

(51:44):
like gravitating towards oneside of that.
And some of that is just forshow, but some of it, like I've
dealt with clients in the pastwhere, for example, when COVID
was ramped up, that their familywouldn't meet together for
Thanksgiving because they had adifferent viewpoint on who
should be vaccinated and notvaccinated.

(52:05):
And then they were like youknow, one part of the family,
someone got vaccine injured anddied like days after getting the
vaccine.
And then they were like well,we're not going to do that.
And their family's like well,we all have been vaccinated.
If you don't come, we're notgoing to have Thanksgiving
together.
And then both sides are sayingyou have to look at the science

(52:27):
of it.
That became a really key phraseof trust the science, or look at
the science, and it's so,basically, in this extremism
politically and whatever kind ofissue issue it is.
It's like I have all the facts.
No, I have all the facts andwe're trying to like reverse
engineer the argument to eitherwin somebody to our side or at
least dunk on them on whythey're inferior to our point.

(52:49):
And I think, like this is likeone of many topics for that of
like, how to address likepoverty, how to address like
poverty, how to addressimmigration, how to address, um,
any issue.
But it's became like pervasive,even in the, in the church,
where we see denominationsfracturing, like something like
the united methodist church,where you see like people are
just like I'm gonna anyways yeah, what are your thoughts on that

(53:12):
?

Speaker 2 (53:13):
yeah, I, I think that the polarization it comes from
this absolute insistency thatyou have the moral high ground,
that you're intellectuallysuperior to whoever you're
dealing with, and so that whole,like arguing the science or

(53:36):
whatever you name it, even thegenerosity stuff that we're
talking about, it's like you cantake either side.
But if you have no, if you'renot willing to have any nuance
to a, to aent, that you have themoral high ground and everybody

(54:01):
else is just a buffoon.
You know, and I think that'sthe constant battle, it's the
battle in the church too of youknow the United Methodists or
them saying like you know, thisis the like.
The Bible is clear that this iswhat it says about gender
identity, and the other half islike dude, it's so black and

(54:27):
white, it's right there.
You, like Jesus made, god madethem male and female, and Paul
is very clear about abouthomosexuality and all these
different.
You know things, and and yet itbecomes such a point of debate
that it one side will take thismoral superiority to say I'm
like you, you don't care, you'rean oppressor.
You know, because, becauseyou're oppressing everybody
else's truth.

(54:48):
You know, all of a sudden,they've.
They've lost, they've elevatedthemselves above everybody else.
They've not allowed anybodyelse to have any kind of a
conversation, because they'relike if you don't believe this,
you're obviously a fascist,you're obviously a Nazi, you're
obviously this, and soimmediately just categorize
somebody.
And I think that's the mostunfortunate thing is, I think

(55:10):
that when we don't allow eachother to have this nuance, even
in the sense of thisconversation where at the
beginning of this conversation Iwas kind of taking the angle of
like, of generosity, wherepeople come in and take
advantage of the church, and nowand then towards the end, I'm
ending it with it's good for usto be taken advantage of.
You know what I mean, and it'snot that I'm trying to just

(55:32):
never have convictions, it's no,I have convictions, but I'm
also each day my responsibilityis different unto the person in
front of me.
It depends.
You know what I mean, and so Ithink that's the same.
It's very similar with theseissues we're dealing with in our
culture right now, where wehave intense distrust for anyone

(55:53):
who has a differing view, and Ithink that's the biggest
obstacle we have to fix.
Is this great distrust forsomeone who says I disagree with
you?

Speaker 1 (56:05):
Yeah Well, I have a friend and he's a devout
Catholic guy and he's very, very, very, very like liberal
progressive on like across theboard on his viewpoints.
It's just like, literally hejust takes a script of like
whatever cnn or whatever likenews channel he's watching and

(56:27):
he just like verbatim, like,will like kind of parrot those
and uh, you, there's like area,basically like I stay in
friendship with him.
Sometimes he says like justlike, he'll cuss me out, like on
, like he'll like cuss me outover instagram, like, say like
crazy stuff to me but then sayhey, anytime you're like in the
area, like come to my house,we'll have a drink or eat

(56:49):
something whatever.
Um, but he like, he's just like, very like has very strong
political.
It's mostly like politicalstuff, uh, not so much like
religiously where we're incontention, although he wants me
to convert to Catholic church,but anyways, I just have like he
has.
Him and his wife have a ton ofkids.

(57:10):
I don't know how many kids theyhave like six kids, five, six,
seven kids, I don't know andthey he's a true Catholic then
yeah, I said how many, how manykids are you going to have.
He says as many as God will letus and and um, but he loves his
family.
He loves his, his wife, andI've spent some time with them,
like together, and like his kidsadore him, his wife and him

(57:32):
Like.
So it's like on that level,like that's a really high core
value of mine.
Priority is like family and,like you know, loving your
family well, and so it's that'slike kind of the point where we
meet each other and we're tryingto like work out the best I can
.
I feel like sometimes it's alittle bit more one-sided in the
sense of like I can, I can makesome concessions of like some

(57:56):
things that I I like about.
If I look at church history andlike the catholic, there's some
things that I would adopt orpull, but I can't, I can't
swallow everything you're givingme and I could walk through and
versus versus.
His side is like this is theway like all the other ways
wrong yeah, but I Ibut I wrote a post once about

(58:18):
how empathy has become a way.
There's a maneuvering ofpeople's compassion and empathy
and these buttons within theChristian faith to weaponize,
kind of like what I said earlierabout brother, brother, give me
your shirt.
Yeah, the scripture says ifsomeone doesn't have a shirt,
you don't give it to them.
You're going to hell, that kindof stuff.

(58:38):
So I just made the observationthat that's been kind of
weaponized.
I witnessed this in Europe.
It was the word tolerance,that's what they kept saying in
German age.
You have to have tolerance, youhave to have tolerance, you
have to have tolerance, and Isaid me having tolerance, like
we can coexist together, but Ican still say your idea sucks,

(58:59):
like, and I don't have to likesay that your idea is good or
right, and and it was like.
It again was this kind ofone-sided thing of like.
If I say, yeah, I believe inthe resurrection of jesus, uh,
that's, that's dumb, but thenit's yeah, why is it?

(59:27):
The tolerant, the tolerantpeople are the least tolerant of
other opinions, moreinquisitive.
My default, though, is issometimes I go into like
explanation mode or like, ifthey they present an idea, I
poke hole.
I'm very quick to like poke theholes in it, yeah, but I've
tried to like now become morelike inquisitive and ask

(59:49):
questions to suspend my, my bias, because we all have bias.
So I need to suspend my bias,explore a little bit, like what
makes you actually tick and howdid you, how do you get there?
But I've had like close friendsof mine where, especially this
last election cycle, they likegot very, very emotional.
I had a very visceral reaction.

(01:00:11):
I was like is our friendshipcompromised now of like 30 years
because we have a differentopinion or different perspective
?
Like is that really, uh, notfrom my end, but from your end,
um, so I, I?
It is a fascinating thing to tryto like navigate this um moral

(01:00:32):
superiority that people feel intheir, on their position and and
it's a hard thing if I'mpursuing like, if there's a
hierarchy of what's good andwhat's right and what's true,
and it's like the creator ofeverything exists sets on top of
that, or there's something thatsits on the top of that totem
pole.
Certainly the government or mypolitical party is not the very
top, for sure, because if I lookat video evidence of like, for

(01:00:56):
example, this is just an exampleof like Hillary Clinton or
somebody like that who, like 20years ago, says the exact
opposite thing of what she'sperpetuating now.
That means that the moralelement of this like we're
talking about moral superiorityis very malleable, depending on
what the public opinion is atthe time, like what's popular or

(01:01:18):
what.
What do you think people wantyou to hear?
So you're not really standingon your own belief, you're
standing on what gives me theless least amount of friction
yeah, a pushback.
So it certainly can't be thestate, and then it certainly
can't be what I feel or think inthe moment, because Ethan is
Ethan now, but you're also Ethan.

(01:01:39):
That was a five-year-old, a10-year-old at one point.
Like you're a collective ofthose personalities.
So if I go back to you as afive-year-old and what you
believed about money and whatyou believed about how to spend
your time and whatever, thatagain is malleable, depending on
where you're at.
So I can't really aim at thatthing in the moment of what my
desires are, where that's my, myhunger or my sex drive or you

(01:02:01):
know, whatever it is.
So I have to try to aim atsomething higher.
And so if I'm aiming atsomething higher and I'm making
the observation someone's notaiming high enough in that, how
to like navigate that, evenwithin myself, of like, uh, I'm
still a broken person, I'm stilllike have capacity for, like
paul said, of sinners, I'm I'mthe worst.

(01:02:21):
Uh, in essence is like well,how he's kind of positioned
himself, uh, but we're stilllike trying to pursue something,
something, something higher, um, it's, it's, it's a weird thing
to try and navigate, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:02:34):
Well, and it's like it's seeking the common ground.
You know what I mean.
Where it's like I, it's likefinding that if you're like, oh,
we shouldn't have borders atall, no borders in America, you
know what I mean Then it's likemy common ground with you is the
reason you're saying that isbecause you think America is
great and that, and that's thereason why you want to welcome
people in.

(01:02:54):
I love that you want to welcomepeople in.
I think that's awesome.
I also want to welcome peopleinto our country, but I also
want people to come into ourcountry and contribute to our
country.
You know where I think wherethe conversation stops is when
we start making, when culturestarts making blanket statements
about everybody.
You know where it's like yeah,we pretend to be the Christian

(01:03:18):
party, but there's a lot thatisn't Christian in it.
You know what I mean.
And it's the same on the otherside, where it's like there's

(01:03:39):
this feeling of we're morallysuperior to everybody else.
It's like you're not like,because ultimately you blanket
statement and you create thispolarization between your tribe
versus the other tribe, and sothe only solution is to go your
tribe versus the other tribe,and so the only solution is to
go to war with the other tribeand instead it's like one of the
things like when we weregrowing up, the big thing was

(01:04:00):
green, everything's got to begreen, right, and don't get.
We're not going to go into thegreen new deal.
But it was like protect theenvironment, protect the Amazon,
protect the oceans.
You know it was like that wasreally big when I was growing up
.
It was like protect the Amazon,protect the oceans.
You know it was like that wasreally big when I was growing up
.
It was like protect, protectthe environment.
I'm super thankful that, eventhough the conservatives were
all saying this is ridiculous,I'm super thankful that there's

(01:04:20):
people in our world that arelike I want to protect the earth
and and protect our oceans andour lakes and our national
forests and things like that,cause if we didn't, it'd just be
in our national forests andthings like that, because if we
didn't, it'd just be.
It's already bad, but it'd beway worse if we didn't have this
focus on it.
And I think so often we just weswing so far and we think like,

(01:04:43):
well, I'm going to fix theproblem by swinging the pendulum
all the way to the other side,and in reality it's where?
Where do we have common groundand where can we agree on
something?
But it's, it is where I gettriggered, as I have a friend
who sounds like your friend, uh,where he says the most

(01:05:03):
polarization, blanket,triggering statements ever.
Um, like, one of the things heuh was, was said to me, was all
white people are racist.
And I'm like, uh, that'sconfusing for me because I
adopted my fourth son and he'sblack and there's nothing in me

(01:05:27):
that sees him as any differentthan all my other kids.
And so how is how is everywhite person racist, you know?
So those statements that getsme fired up and angry really
quick because it's this huge,massive polarization statement
that just is not, it's not true,like there's not, there's not

(01:05:48):
truth in that across the wholeboard.
There might be truth in somesample groups, but it's not true
across the whole board.
So we like to me, what I, whatgets me going, is when we start
hearing blanket statements aboutthe left or the right in our
country.
Like I, I can't.
I get irritated, even when inin different contexts, where

(01:06:08):
Republicans are even in my ownfamily are throwing out these
huge, blanket statements aboutDemocrats and Democrats are
making these huge statementsabout Republicans.
I'm like, guys, this isridiculous, you know, it's just
so.
Uh, I'm definitely like, like,when it comes to politics, I'm
like get me out of here, cause II'm just like, I just get angry
that everybody's throwingeverybody else under the bus and

(01:06:29):
nobody wants to just sit downand have a conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
You know yeah, but well, that guy, that guy who I
was talking, talking about, he,he just said, yeah, the, the,
and this is guy who, like, usedto vote republican.
But he's like, uh, yeah, therepublican party is completely
demonic, it's, it's uh, ran bythe devil, and blah, blah, blah.
And then I hear people like Icome from a very like rural part
of West Virginia where peopleare very conservative, so

(01:06:54):
they'll say the exact same thingabout the Democratic Party.
And I'm just like, yeah, at theend of the day, like, I think,
like to your point, you justhave individuals that make up a
collective and there are likeideas that get perpetuated by
the collective.
But it is kind of wild, likelike, yeah, just to hear like a
very provocative statement and Idon't know, I can make very

(01:07:19):
provocative statements like thatabout the history of the
Catholic church or somethinglike that.
I'm like, well, all Catholicsare this cause.
It's the history, but it but it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
It's just like it's not it's just like not, it's not
true.
There's so much, there's a lotof rich.
There's a lot of rich gifts andexpressions and traditions that
come from the catholic faiththat moved its way into
protestantism.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
And yeah, you know and people are people at the end
of the day, like there'sindividuals who, anywhere you go
, and so when you're sitting infront of somebody you kind of
have to reset.
I think everybody does havebias.
That's just going to be anatural, ingrained thing.
And I heard podcasts go downbecause you made the statement
or this guy made the statement.
Like all white, white peopleare are racist and I they find

(01:08:00):
it interesting because I thinkall anybody in any group is
going to have a natural bias tosome degree on some measure,
depending on what theircondition with.
But we have friends of ours whothey immigrate here.
The mom is Congolese and thenthe kids are.
The dad was South African, theygrew up in South Africa and

(01:08:24):
they just make the observationwhen they came here that in
their school the Black Americankids will have nothing to do
with the African kids.
And then they make fun of themand pick on them because they
stink and they're different andall this stuff they say and it's
just like, well, what is that?
thing, but I think again, you'rejust resetting.

(01:08:47):
Every time you sit down with aperson and people are very
complicated and then circlingback to what you said originally
, even if somebody has thesekind of biases or says these
things, how do I treat thisperson who's in front of me?
Because if we go farther andfarther and farther into
extremism, you dehumanizeanother person.

(01:09:16):
You dehumanize another personand then we get into a situation
like we did in this country inthe Civil War, where you
literally had family memberskilling each other, Segmenting
over political views and bothparties assuming moral
superiority.
Communication just breaks down.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
Well, it happens at such small levels and then it
happens at these massive levelsand I think that's where, uh, we
can even bring this back to ourum, generosity, kind of giving
thing is one of the ways that wecan take that moral high ground
is to say, well, the person'spoor because is to say, well,

(01:09:55):
the person's poor because theydid drugs, because they're a
drunk, they're this.
And we take this like I'm goingto identify you by your
problems, not by who, like God,that you're made in God's image
and that, that, like, there'ssomething, there's a purpose and
plan for your life, and so I'mnot willing to just box you into
that.
You're this because of this.
I think that's where it's likewe have to have this mindset of

(01:10:18):
I will not take this moral highground above you.
And that's where commonalitycomes into play, where you can
be the richest.
I truly believe Jesus is theexample.
He left the riches of heaven,left everything, all the
inheritance, everything that hehad in heaven.
He comes down because he foundsomething in common and he puts

(01:10:39):
on flesh and blood us who arepoor and blind and naked, you
know, and then he becomescrucified, naked, and you know,
and I think that's where, whenwe're talking generosity, when
we're talking politics, italways comes back to this issue

(01:11:01):
of commonality of of.
I can't view you as less thanme, I can't view you as
something worse than me, because, because, ultimately, if I was
put in your situation, with theparents you had and the
upbringing you had, I probablywould be right where you are.
And so, today, what's myresponsibility for you?

(01:11:24):
And it might be being generousand buying somebody a meal, or
buying somebody a hotel, orhelping somebody pay rent, or it
might be here's a Dave Ramseybook.
You should read this, um orit's hey, I'll drive you to the
shelter, or I'll.
Or hey, go check this out this.
There's this nonprofit in town.
I think that's where we have totake that responsibility and and

(01:11:45):
and not just immediately divideourselves and say you're not
like me, I'm not like you.
You know, um, but that's hardto do.
It's hard to do and especiallyin those situations when you've
got people and dads who arethrowing stuff into the food
trucks, of people who areliterally trying to help them,

(01:12:05):
and it's really hard to havemercy and grace for someone like
that who, essentially, is doingsomething.
Somebody is doing something outof the kindness of their heart
and they literally ruin it foreverybody.
That's, that's a bummer.
That's.
That is where I the only thingI can say is I don't know, I
don't know what to do with that.
You know, that's where thejustice in me comes out, and it

(01:12:32):
it's man.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
I think, yeah to your point.
I think everything's just kindof nuanced in the, in the, in
the situation, and I think it'slike ramsey.
I heard him say once that likeI don't own anything, I'm just
stewarding what god gives me,and that's kind of how he looked
at his, how he's saying helooked at his life and his
resources.
So if we posture even our life,right that the fact that our
heart's still beating in ourchest because it could not be

(01:12:53):
the next beat, that you're goingto try to use your life like
that.
But then there's a tension oflike Jesus was never, like an
absolutist, in a sense, like hewould.
This passage where he's talkingabout not casting your pearls

(01:13:13):
before swine.
So it's like we, we talk.
We would of course want, likeeverybody to hear, hear the
gospel, or like hear, hear truth.
But he's just saying like don'teven do that, cause they're
going to tramp, like they'regoing to trample the pearls into
the mud like pigs and then turnon you and like tear you to
pieces.
Yeah, so there's this nuance ofand then also within himself,

(01:13:35):
when that lady is trying to pushthrough the crowd and grab a
hold of them, you have to thinkeverybody had a need, everybody
had something they wanted,everybody wanted a piece of them
to a degree.
And so just having somediscernment of what am I
supposed to give in thissituation, I mean that's like
Baker's kind of deal.

(01:13:55):
She's like stop for the one.
So it's just like in the daythere's going to be somebody who
, for divine providence or likejust through the everyday goings
of life, that is going to crossyour path.
Yeah, we're very objective,oriented in Western culture,
like getting from one thing tothe next thing, the next thing,
but being people focused, likecommunal focused, and it not

(01:14:18):
having, not having to like of,like a ritual of like well, we,
we pray in the mornings and theevenings.
And then she understands, likeyou know, she'll pray for people
.
She sees that they're hurt.

(01:14:38):
And we went to the park to ridebikes and her and her brother
got the bikes out and they werevery excited.
Well, there's people that walkon this flat pancake, like paved
path for like physical therapyand stuff, and there's a lady
with these two walking stickskind of going along and it's
probably like a football fieldlength away, like on that far
other side, and she just saw andsaw.

(01:14:59):
She's like what's wrong?
I was like, well, her legsprobably hurt, that's why she
has that cane.
And so then my daughter justlike took off.
And so then I'm like kind oflightly jogging after and she
gets up to the lady and I don'tknow what's getting ready to
happen, and then she says to thelady hey, can I?
she's like, what happened toyour leg?
And she's like, oh, I just gota surgery and it's hurt,

(01:15:20):
whatever had an accident.
And then a surgery.
And then my daughter is like,can I pray?
And the lady is like, what?
And I was like she wants topray for your leg.
She, she wants to pray for yourleg.
She's asking if she can.
And the lady's like, yeah, andthen my daughter just
unsolicited puts her hand on herleg and then just says, jesus,
make the pain go away.
Wow, something, something,something.

(01:15:41):
And then she takes her hand off.
We look up the lady's cryingand she's like, thank you so
much.
And then my daughter's like,yeah, and then Chase from Paw
Patrol did this and this andthis and this.

Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
And then this runs away.

Speaker 1 (01:15:55):
And the lady's like what?
And I was like I don't knowshe's talking about Paw Patrol
now, but I hope that was okay.
She's like, yeah, she's likeI've never had anybody kind of
approach me in public like thatand I was like, yeah, that's her
IO, she'll do that with people.
So it's not necessarily thatpeople need like you know a
hundred bucks or a rhyme, butjust seeing the person and I

(01:16:17):
feel like my daughter's a lotbetter at that, to your point,
like I feel like as the fatherand the husband, I have to
protect our resources and I haveto, but that kind of comes from
a sense of ownership.
And so when Ramsey's sayinglike all this is God'm just like
stewarding it, yes, it's alittle bit.
That's hard dude yeah yes, it'shard.

(01:16:39):
Yeah, um, well, cool, any any?
Uh, I know you say you have towrap up here and and and take
off.
Is there any anything youwanted to bring up?
Anything we talked about ordidn't talk about, or you felt
like you want to kind of wrap upwith?

Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
no, no, I think that I think we we pretty nailed it,
nailed it pretty good yeah,awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):
Well, I appreciate you taking the time to hop on,
man, and thanks for having me.
Yeah, I'll drop the links andstuff to your church.
Do you guys stream at all?

Speaker 2 (01:17:18):
We have a YouTube channel.
We just post our sermons after,yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:22):
Okay, Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
So yeah, I'll just post all those links in the
description and everything, andthen people can check it out.

Speaker 1 (01:17:29):
Yeah yeah, this was a blast Great conversation,
everything, and then people cancheck it out.
Yeah, yeah, this was a blast,great conversation.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Uh see, here I've been thinkinga lot about morality lately.
Not the kind that's trendy orconvenient, but the kind that cs
, lewis and tolkien wrote about.
The kind where you choose to dowhat's right, not because

(01:17:51):
you're guaranteed to win, butbecause it's right.
Period when you fight thebattle knowing you might lose,
knowing you might be killed,knowing that you might sacrifice
even more than that, but you'llfight anyways Because there's
something sacred in that fightitself.
There's a thread runningthrough his stories where

(01:18:13):
characters who resist evil, notbecause they're sure of the
outcome but because theirconscience won't let them do
otherwise.
And just when it all seems lost, some unexpected outside force
breaks in.
It's not always flashy, butit's enough.

(01:18:34):
And as we look at the state ofthe world, the noise, the
division, the weight of it all,it's attempting to think we're
slipping past the point ofreturn.
But history runs in cycles.
People have felt this beforeand time and time again.
But history runs in cycles.
People have felt this beforeand time and time again.
Small acts of courage carriedout by ordinary people shifted

(01:18:56):
the tide.
I've heard so many times.
People said I couldn't imagineraising kids in a world like
this.
But every generation says thatIf today stirred something in
you frustration, hope,convictions, questions great,
that means you were listeningand paying attention and in a
world that profits fromdistraction, division, staying

(01:19:16):
oriented to what matters is akind of quiet rebellion in of
itself.
Poverty, justice, truth theseare not topics that anybody's
going to solve in one sitting.
People have been trying tosolve this forever, but maybe
we're not meant to completelysolve it.
Maybe these questions are meantto be carried so that we know
how to orientate ourselves anddo that together.

(01:19:38):
And maybe the wind isn't havingall the right answers.
Maybe it's being the kind ofperson who just keeps asking the
questions and refuses to stopseeing the person in front of
them as more than just a problemor a position or a statistic.
If this episode meant somethingto you, by all means share it,
pass it on, start a conversation, consider that your assignment

(01:20:01):
and, if you want to keep walkingwith us, subscribe, leave a
review on Apple or Spotify.
Wherever you enjoy podcasts,support the show if you'd like.
It's not free.
It helps me to keep buildingsomething that's thoughtful,
unhurried and grounded in realconnection.
Until next time, stay rooted,stay curious and don't be afraid

(01:20:23):
to carry something heavy.
Bye-bye you.

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