The Unseen Price of Forgiveness: What Lies Beneath cheap cinema and shallow definitions

Click here to give us feedback! What do you love or hate about the show? What topics should we go more narrow and deeper on?

Have you ever grappled with the idea that forgiveness might hold the key to your own liberation? In this episode, we set out on a journey—one part introspection, one part revelation—to untangle the deep truths of forgiveness, trust, and the fragile architecture of human relationships. With the ever-curious and delightfully enigmatic Tim Churchward as our guide, we wade into the murky waters of pain and redemption, discovering along the way that freedom often lies just beyond the courage to forgive.

Forgiveness is no soft virtue; it is a battle waged within the soul, where the scars of past wounds meet the relentless call to let go. Boundaries, on the other hand, are the walls we build—not to keep others out, but to preserve the sanctity of our own becoming. Trust? Well, trust is the leap of faith that carries us across the chasm of human imperfection. Together, these ideas form a kind of alchemy, transforming the chaos of our lives into something resembling grace.

Themes We Explore:

• Forgiveness as the painful but necessary path to freedom.
• Trust as a dance between risk and reward, vulnerability and strength.
• Boundaries as the art of protecting what is sacred without losing what is human.
• The delicate interplay of rights and responsibilities, reframed as gifts rather than entitlements.
• Stories of extraordinary forgiveness, where grace triumphs over vengeance.

We also take a hard look at the roots of modern human rights, tracing their lineage back to the soil of Christian thought. Here, rights are not mere conveniences but divine gifts, calling us to steward them with reverence and courage. And at the heart of it all lies the resurrection—a moment that embodies the ultimate reconciliation of justice and mercy, offering a blueprint for healing in a broken world.

As we close, you’ll hear tales that defy cynicism: a father’s improbable forgiveness in the face of unspeakable loss, the quiet power of grace to transform the human heart, and the perilous weight of resentment when left unchecked. This isn’t just an invitation to think differently—it’s a call to action, a challenge to reflect on your own life and take the first steps toward freedom, healing, and meaning.

So, beautiful people, lean in. Join us as we navigate the hard truths of the human experience with a dash of humor, a measure of wisdom, and more than a little faith. 

And when you’re done, share this episode with someone who needs it. We’re on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and wherever the road of discovery takes you. Don’t forget to subscribe, review, and—if you’re feeling generous—help spread the word.

Here’s to the journey, and a very Happy New Year.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hello and welcome to the Map.
Today's conversation.
I am joined again by thewhimsical and magical Tim
Churchward.
The whimsical and magical TimChurch world.
Today's conversation.
We dive into the profound andoften paradoxical dynamics of
forgiveness, trust and thepursuit of truth.

(00:32):
It's about wrestling with thereal and the raw realities of
relationships and uncoveringtruly what matters by peeling
back the layers of our beliefsaround relationships.
Forgiveness is not simple, norshould it be.
It demands from us oftentimesmore than what we believe that

(00:54):
we can give.
Yet in this demand, it doesoffer something greater freedom.
Forgiveness isn't aboutforgetting.
It's about confronting thereality of harm and choosing not
to let that define us.
And it's a battle, but it's onethat leads to profound growth.
And as we peel that back, we gointo trust and this delicate,

(01:19):
fragile thing that's builtslowly over time, but it can be
shattered very quickly.
Fragile thing that's builtslowly over time, but it can be
shattered very quickly.
It demands vulnerability, awillingness to take risk, to
open ourselves to thepossibility of betrayal.
But trust is also the bedrockof all meaningful relationships.
Without it we're just islands,adrift, isolated.
We also explore the role ofboundaries, those unseen lines

(01:44):
that protect the sanctity of ourlives while inviting others
into a meaningful connection.
Without boundaries,relationships falter and healing
becomes elusive.
And somewhere in all this liesthe interplay between rights and
responsibilities, a tensionthat challenges us to see our
rights not as entitlements, butas gifts requiring care and

(02:06):
stewardship.
This conversation is aboutnavigating the chaos of life
with wisdom and grace.
It's about standing in thetension between what is and what
could be and finding a wayforward that honors both truth
and compassion.
So settle in.
This is not just a discussion.
It's an invitation to reflect,to wrestle, to grow.

(02:29):
Let's dive in.
Two, one, zero, all enginesrunning.
Let's go.
Um, because I feel it, just it,just this is weird.

(02:50):
Um, well, I am joined again bythe powerful and whimsical tim
churchward.
Love, that hat makes you looklike a bricklayer there, okay,
man.
So I got got some feedback fromthe last time that we talked
and, and one of the things thatpeople did say is like we need
to go a little bit more narrowand deep on some topics that we
talk about, versus like we'lljust drop like a bomb, and then

(03:12):
like move on, drop another bomb,then move on, drop another bomb
Like fireworks yeah.
Fireworks, yeah, yeah.
So one of the things we kind ofwent back and forth were about
talking about forgiveness withinour culture and of went back

(03:32):
and forth were about talkingabout forgiveness within our
culture.
And, ironically enough, I justhad a recording with my buddy,
ethan, and we talked a ton aboutconfession that segued into
forgiveness.
So it's a pretty seamlesstransition here, but I remember
I'll kind of pass the baton toyou but I remember when I was in
the UK once we were visitingfriends of ours down in
Portsmouth, the Farum,southampton area.
I remember my buddy, his son.
They had a real issue with himeating on their couch.

(03:52):
They had a setup where the TVin the family room there's a
couch and his son would justtrash the couch with yogurt or
whatever it was, and so he laidthe law down.
He's like hey, buddy, so here'sthe deal.
In our family everybody has theright to use this couch, but
everybody in our family has aresponsibility to keep this area

(04:13):
clean so that we all can watchit, and we have to respect that.
We're not the only person thathas the right to watch the TV,
everybody else has the right.
So there's this symbioticrelationship or a triangle
between rights, responsibilityand respect that have to be held
together.
Culturally, people hyper fixateon rights, even in what they

(04:35):
perceive as rights.
Sometimes people misdefinerights and they say rights, but
it's like the Beastie Boys Ineed to fight for my right to
party.
Everyone's like I have rights,rights, rights, and certain
political parties will reallypush that you need to have more
rights, you need to have rightson top of rights and it's all
about rights.
But then there's not thisrelationship with.
You actually have to respectthat other people have rights

(04:58):
and the way that they live theirlife might not be how you would
think is right or whatever, butthen you have a responsibility
to protect that for other people.
And I saw one lady I'm not goingto hand off to you one lady.
She was being interviewed.
She was from Palestine andthere was a kid from UCLA.
So this white kid, he's in his20s, this lady's a bit older.

(05:21):
I don't know the context, Ijust saw the reel of it and she
was taking a deep breath beforeshe talked and uh and so so this
lady, she was, you know, takinga deep breath and she's
correcting the audience.
She's like guys, he has anopinion, he has a perspective,

(05:43):
he's here, willing to talk, youneed to chill.
He has a perspective.
He's willing to talk.
You need to chill out.
And so our culture is kind ofconditioned to like dunk on each
other and boo, and like youdon't want to hear people talk,
conditioning the audiencebecause they're outraged.
Let him talk.
So she just like kind ofschooled him for a second.
He didn't really know what doyou think?
I'm from Gaza.
I was attacked within Gaza.
I was raped by 13 men.
I was like she just wentthrough all this stuff she

(06:05):
experienced, and she's like youdon't actually know what you're
talking about.
When you say the wordPalestinian, you don't actually
know what that is.
And she's like I've been toAmerica, I've been, I to the
individual there, and I feellike we've kind of lost a witch
hunt culture in the form of likedoxing or I want, if you don't
agree, I want to punish youeconomically, I want to punish

(06:53):
you socially, I want to punishyou here.
So there's no even really roomfor forgiveness also within that
.
But I'll stop there because Ithrew different things there,
but I'd like to hear your hottake.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, I think the rights thing is really.
For me, the rights thing, thehuman rights thing is more
interesting.
I mean, I think Christianity isthe foundation of human rights,
the Geneva Convention, we know,in terms of how we establish
modern Western human rights andeverybody with a right to life,
and what you can expect fromthat, and and the foundational

(07:26):
narrative, of course, in thechristian, christian story is
that everyone's created equal,and men and women are created
equal, for example, and from thebeginning of time.
And so what does that look?
And so what we've done is we'veestablished this, these the
sets of laws I will call themdoctrines, but these sets of
laws around what human right isand how do we uphold the

(07:50):
equality of all people, but notjust the equality of all people,
the equality of the mostvulnerable, the rights of
equality created equal under God, from God, or you divorce it

(08:10):
from the Christian faith thatyou find them in, then what
happens is that the rightsbecome the be-all and end-all of
what it is that you thinkyou're entitled to, and so
rights become an entitlement,not a privilege as a created
being.
And so for me, the antidotealways is well, christianity

(08:30):
really says the right that youhave really at a foundational
level is the right to death.
Because you sinned, you fellshort of the glory of God, and
so what that meant is what thatmeans is is that you have one
right Right is a strong word forthis, but let's go with it.
We have one right, which is todie Die a sucker and that's John
Wimber.

(08:50):
You ever heard of John Wimber?
I don't know.
And so, basically, when we havean entitlement to right, we
believe that we have anentitlement to everything that
is good about life.
But really our only entitlementbecause the ways of sin are,
death is death, but by the graceof God, we are able to live in

(09:11):
a place or live in a society,live in a world where we get to
protect the things that we holddear.
Even the most vulnerable get toprotect those things.
But when it becomes about therights, you forget the right
giver.
And actually the purpose of theredemption power of Christ is
that what you do is you lay downyour rights.
This is a foundationalnarrative in Christianity that

(09:35):
you lay down your rights.
You lay down your right to life, lay down your right to dignity
, to freedom, whatever else itis.
You lay at the feet of the LordJesus Christ, and then he gives
you supernatural power by whichto live your life and you're
resurrected in his power, notjust in the power of the human
rights that you might receivefrom a sociological or
theoretical or societal standing, which is a far freer, actually

(09:57):
, and far greater place to live,because the greatest freedom is
when you actually lay down yourfreedom and pick it up, because
then you're not fighting foryour own freedom, you're no
longer an orphan fighting foryour own freedom, fighting for
the rights that no one else isgoing to give you unless you
stand up for them.
You know, and I think that inthe end, if we get our heads
around the fact that rights arenot an entitlement, they're a

(10:20):
gift, and that if we areconstantly fighting for rights,
rights that we think our rights,that we think we have
entitlement to we miss the pointthat they're a gift and
actually we receive the gift bylaying them down in the first
place, being resurrection tosupernatural power, and so
there's all of those thingsinvolved in there.
But to shift through theforgiveness phase is that if you

(10:40):
, if you believe that you're notentitled to anything, it's a
lot easier to forgive someone,because how do you hurt a dead
person, how do you offend a deadperson?
You can't.
And so, actually, if you'redead to everything, including
your sin, but also you're deadto your rights, you're dead to

(11:00):
your need to protect yourself,you're dead to all these things,
then no offense can hurt you.
Now, this is theoretical, it'sa lot harder to put into
practice, but you can't hurt adead man, you can't kill a dead
man, you can't take the rightsof a dead man away.
You're dead.
And so, actually, from thatbasis, if you really work
through the narrative ofChristianity, then you end up

(11:25):
living in a place where youcan't be offended, where you
can't have your rights takenaway because you've chosen to
lay them down.
So there's something reallyimportant to acknowledge that
when you have that basis for howyou live your life, that it
becomes a lot easier to forgivesomeone, then it becomes a lot
easier to forgive someone,because, basically, what you're
saying is hey, I gave up theright, I gave up the right to I

(11:49):
don't know have this particularlifestyle that I wanted.
Like, I gave up that right andnow I trust Jesus with my life,
I trust Jesus with my destinyand he commands it.
And so then when someone comesat you, hurts you, minimizes you
no-transcript People will hurtme and I'm not entitled to not

(12:28):
be hurt.
I'm not entitled to live mylife completely free from hurt
and pain.
I'm not entitled to that.
I wish that I could have thatin heaven.
I'll have that, but I'm notentitled to that right now.
And so actually laying that asa foundation for your
forgiveness makes your life alot easier.
Because what you do is that youend up saying, hey, jesus,
instead of me meeting out my ownjustice the whole time living

(12:50):
as an orphan, trying to believe,the only person that can
protect me is me.
I trust you as my gateway tothe Father, father, god, you are
my justice and that, just asyou resurrected me from the
death of my sin, so actuallyyou'll resurrect me from this
hurt your.
Your same resurrection powerresides in me and you will heal
me as a result of that.
And now I absolutely understand.

(13:12):
I absolutely understand thatthat is a crazy theory, crazy
doctrine, crazy thing and veryhard to live and act out.
But if I'm right aboutchristianity, then that's what
it calls us to do, and and soI'm.
I talk to my friend a lot andI've got a really good friend,
um, here in our church and he,his wife, came out gay.

(13:33):
She divorced him.
Um, you know about two childrentogether.
She's gone progressive and hasno idea, um, of the collateral
damage.
That is done, necessarily, butshe now obviously lives with
this.
She's married and lives withthis other lady.
And it's really interestingbecause he talks about
forgiveness.
In fact, he spoke to 10 minuteslast night at a training

(13:55):
session that we did aboutforgiveness and I'm like man, if
you can stand up and talk to meabout forgiveness and you can
stand up and having forgiventhat situation in your life,
then what on earth am I doing?
Holding anything againstanybody?
You know what I mean.
And I think that there's thisreally interesting story, that

(14:17):
this idea that I have the rightto express myself, I have the
right to any sexual or genderidentity that I want.
I have a right to change what Iwant, to that I want.
I have a right to change what Iwant to change, no matter what
the collateral damage is, nomatter if it undermines a
previous covenant and commitmentin terms of this marriage.
This is the top priority myexpression of self, my freedom

(14:39):
of self.
And when you focus on.
Focus on that the rights, whatyou have access to, what you're
entitled to you actually losethe whole point of covenant,
because now you're onlycovenanting with something that
can give you what you want, asopposed to something that will
walk you through a storm.
And and in terms of theforgiveness aspect of it, um, if

(15:00):
you focus on on your rights andthen someone abuses your rights
, then forgiveness isn't part ofthe conversation.
Canceling is part of theconversation.
If someone tramples on yourrights or tramples on the ideal
that you want to live to, thenwhat happens is that you get up
and you defend yourself and yougo up against that person in the

(15:22):
same vein as they've come upagainst you, which is this you
did me an injustice and so Iwill do you an injustice, and
the cycle goes and goes and goes.
We spoke last week about theSermon on the Mount being the
ultimate idea of breaking thecycle of injustice, and it lays
at the feet of the one thatsuffered injustice.
It's a crazy story, crazy story, but everything about

(15:42):
Christianity is impossibleunless you are supernaturally
empowered by the Spirit to do it.
And so when we focus on rights,we minimize forgiveness,
because we end up trying toenact justice as opposed to live
from a place of a heart offorgiveness.
So I think that would be whatI'd say to all the things you
just said, and I think there'llbe lots of comments about that,
I'm sure lots of thoughts aboutthat.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
And that's a theory that is much harder to put into
practice as a human being thanit is to speak about in a
context like this.
But, yeah, evocativedemonstrations of forgiveness
that I've ever witnessed I sentyou the clip on.
It was when Gary Ridgway, whowas a convicted serial killer I

(16:35):
think he killed something to thetune of 38 women brutally.
They had him in court, setstone face the entire time, no
response, no reaction.
At the end of the trial theygave the families the
opportunity to expressthemselves toward what he had
done.
Some people obviously they weredistraught.
You took this person from me.
I'll never get them back.

(16:56):
Other people vehemently we hateyou.
I hope you die and burn in hellforever.
I hope you have a miserablesuffering life in prison.
Die and burn in hell forever.
I hope you have a miserablesuffering life in prison.
It'll make me happy to knowthat you can't get out and do it
.
It was, is, yeah, it's.
You're just like gutted forthese people who, like they lost
their daughter, they lost theirsister, they lost somebody, and

(17:18):
then some of them couldn't eventalk.
You know, they're so like justwrecked by it.
And then this old man gets up.
He, he has rainbow suspenders,santa Claus beard, big belly.
And he just calmly said he'slike you know, mr Ridgway, a lot
of people here hate you today,but I'm not one of them.
And he said you've made itreally hard to do what I believe

(17:42):
is right, but I followed JesusChrist and he commands me to
forgive.
And you've been forgiven, sir.
And this guy who the serialkiller who had sat there
stone-faced the entire timebegins to weep.
And part of me as a father Ican empathize completely of like
, yeah, let's bury this guyunder the prison.

(18:03):
He's a monster.
But the other side of it islike what you're saying about
your friend who, it's like, well, who am I?
If this guy can do that, then Ihave to ask like, why is he
doing that?
And like, I have friends whoare men, who, like, served in
the military and certain things,and I kind of hear them in the
background of my mind.
Well, that guy's weak.

(18:24):
That guy's weak because heshould go and he should exercise
vengeance on that guy.
He's doing that because he'sharmless or he's doing that
because he can't actually doanything.
He's doing it.
So there's this invalidation ofthe forgiveness, there's an
invalidation of like, why isthat necessary and we all are
familiar in this kind of clichesbecome like people think that

(18:49):
things are shallow becausethey're simple.
But there's a?
There's a saying from a rabbithat said an eye for an eye
leaves the whole world blind.
Uh, the buck stops withsomebody, and, and I think we're
we're living in a time I am, Ithink we are correcting course,

(19:11):
or at least we are aware that weneed to correct course, because
there's a, there's a period oftime in the states and in the uk
it's still you guys are stillnot turning the corner.
I think.
In the states, we're liketrying to turn the corner in
this, but policing each other onthought to the extent where you
want to ruin somebody'slivelihood, take away their
ability to earn, and then to thepoint where you jail them

(19:34):
because they have a differingopinion of you and you can't
just simply forgive that personand move on in a sense.
But yeah, so that story, though.
And then I found like once Istarted watching that story
cause I was looking at somethings to look at on that I just
got bombarded by people who wasjust like mind boggling that

(19:54):
you can sit even in the sameroom with the person, cause I
know people who they wentthrough divorce.
They can't even be in the sameroom even talking about it.
They'll start trembling and theanger is so immense, but the
pain is so immense they can'teven talk about it.
I knew a guy I did at a periodof time I did like inner healing
, uh kind of sessions with withpeople, and this, this person,

(20:20):
his father, was a closetedhomosexual, had a couple, couple
of kids.
He was the second born.
When his father found out thathis mother was pregnant with him
, like Sparta, kicked her downthe stairs in the stomach.
He tried to kill him in thewomb.
It was rejection from like evenin the womb.
And so later his father who'sfather, his closet homosexual

(20:46):
ends up coming out, divorces hismom, moves away to another
state, but then like stillmaintains some modicum of
relationship with his son, andthe very short version of the of
the story is uh, he would throwthese orgies and his son would
be a play thing for all thesemen who were coming to the orgy.

(21:06):
As an eight-year-old,10-year-old boy, and his first
experience with sexuality waswas having grown men rape him.
And so we got to the pointwhere, okay, if you want to, if
you want to, you can forgiveyour dad and like we, like we

(21:27):
we'd like made we had multiplesessions.
There's other stuff that wasunpacked.
This was like this is likepretty fundamental, you know,
thing that sets some trajectoryin your life.
We sat there.
He's hysterically crying I'mjust sitting in the moment with
him, you know, not trying to put, you know not trying to put,
just leaving it open, not tryingto put pressure, and then

(21:48):
eventually literally gets up andsprints out of the room.
We had another session, got tothe same place, sprints out of
the room.

(22:15):
So when we talk about the nutsand bolts of like, when people
have done grotesque things to us, when we've been wounded so
deeply from such an early age,there's no other way and I could
be, you know.
I know people will contest this.
But the grace of God, peoplemisconstrued the grace of God.
But the grace of God is God'sability.
So there's a place where myability starts and my ability
ends.
My strength, what I am capableof doing, and the grace of God
will actually empower mesupernaturally.

(22:37):
Why do I say supernaturally?
I'm not trying to be hocuspocus, it's naturally what I am
able to do.
The extent of it comes.
There's a super ability, I willget a superpower or a
dispensation of that or depositof that in an instance to do
something and to forgivesomebody for something like that
.
You're going to need grace andyou're not going to need grace

(22:59):
in a single shot.
You're going to need asustained, the sustaining grace
of god.
And why would you forgive forsomething like that?
Well, there was an Egyptian.
I think it's not accurate, butthis has been circulated through
Egypt and also in the RomanEmpire, this story of punishment
.
But basically, if you murderedsomebody, sometimes what you'd

(23:21):
be sentenced to is they wouldtake the body of the person who
you murdered and they wouldtether that person to your back
and your shoulder so you couldstill walk around and go about
your life, but they would likestrap them tightly to your body.
The reason why is, when thatbody starts to decompose, you're
going to get MRSA, you're goingto get staff, you are going to
get an infection From the personwho you've murdered and the

(23:44):
life that you took is going totake your life.
I think this is just a myththat's been built to prove a
point when you want to hold onto these feelings because I
would want to murder somebody.
If they did that to me, I wouldwant to murder them.
But when you hold on to thosefeelings, that poison that you

(24:06):
have inside of yourself is goingto kill things that you love.
It's going to kill you and thefear of letting it go will keep
you captive in that, carryingthose people with you on your
shoulder.
Bruce Springsteen said when thefear that we have to make us do

(24:29):
what we need to survive, whensurvival kills the things that
we love, fear is a powerful andreal thing.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
Absolutely.
I think there's this reallyinteresting dialogue with
forgiveness.
It's that unforgiveness, the,the, the inability to forgive
actually keeps you bound to thehurt, and so you're trying to
move on from the pain, often bynumbing or forgetting or

(25:02):
avoiding or whatever, andactually until you can get to a
point where you are able toforgive, you're actually always
bound to the hurt.
You're bound to the person'saction against you.
Paul paul, the apostle paul,says that it's like locking
yourself up in prison andthrowing away the key.
That's what.
That's what unforgiveness is,and what's really interesting is
, um, is that we we probablyneed to bust some myths about

(25:26):
what forgiveness is, um, becausewhat forgiveness?
Forgiveness is not let theperson back in right, like that
is not what forgiveness is.
That's a stupid.
So forgiveness isn't sayingokay, so you forgive them, and
so now what that means is theyhave access to you again?
No, no, if you, if you forgivesomeone, it does not mean that

(25:50):
you forget.
Now, god forgets, like godremembers our sin no more.
But but that's because he's godand also he um, he's also
ultimately justice, and so he,he has that, he can meet justice
out, so he can forget it.
And but actually, for us, we'renot called to forget injustice
that's done against us.
We're called to forgiveinjustice, that that.

(26:11):
We're called to forgive thehurt, forgive the person, but
we're not meant to forget,because what that means is is
that we just end up openingourselves up to to more pain and
more hurt, either from thatindividual or someone who's very
much like him.
It's why I'll move on, I won'tgo there.
But but but actually, forexample, your guy that sprinted
out of the of the room when youwere like, hey, if you want to,

(26:33):
you can forgive your dad.
Um, there's something very realabout if I, if I, let this go,
who is going to protect me now?
If, if I let this pain and thishurt go, if I let it go and I
and I forgive and I release him,then this defense mechanism

(26:54):
that I have against this everhappening to me ever again is
gone and I've got to trustsomething more than me to defend
myself, and that's superdifficult.
But when we understandforgiveness is not letting the
person in, forgiveness is sayingI release you and release

(27:15):
myself from the sin that youcaused to me and allow god to
meet out the justice against yourather than me meeting it out
against you.
What that means is you'recompletely and utterly free from
that person, the way that youcould never be unless you
forgave.
The other thing aboutforgiveness is that it doesn't
mean you have to trust again thesame person.

(27:35):
You don't have to trust itright.
Forgiveness and trust are likesuch different things.
The thing with the thing withtrust is that if, in the human
experience, you are going to belet down multiple times by more
people who will break your trustSome to a small degree, like
they said they give you your penback and then they never gave

(27:56):
it back, they just took it awayand that was it and some who
literally crush you and youtrusted them, you let them into
the most intimate part of whoyou were, but they crush you
because they take your heart,for example, and they squash you
, and trust can be broken downthe entire way through that
spectrum.

(28:17):
But forgiveness is not trustingthem, forgiveness is releasing
them, and trust actually issomething that is, then, an act
of courage, not an act ofnaivety or or or not, an act of
um or not a natural act.

(28:37):
So, as human beings, as we getolder and older and and people
hurt us more and more, which isnaturally going to happen, then
actually it takes more and morecourage to trust again.
That's what it takes, butactually the gateway to trusting
someone to a point where youlet them in your life is
forgiving the person that skewedyour understanding of what

(28:59):
trust could look like.
And the forgiveness of someonethat broke trust is your gateway
to moving into a more trustingrelationship or environment that
you can choose for yourself,and I want to.
I just want to make reallyclear that I've not gone through
hardly anything that has broken.
I mean, it's all.
It's all like.
I'm not trying to make ahierarchy, but I've never been,

(29:21):
I've never gone through the thething that my friend went
through.
I've never gone through thething that the guy that came to
you for that in a healingsession went through.
Never, never, never, ever, ever, never.
Want to clearly and don't wishit to try and test this theory,
you know, but actually there issomething powerful to
acknowledge that if we getforgiveness right, it doesn't
even mean that we speak to thatperson again.

(29:42):
It might be that theappropriate boundary that's in
place is that that person has noaccess to us ever again, but
that's not the point.
The point of forgiveness isthat it releases you from being
held by them, because more oftenthan not, they're off living
their life, they're off crackingon, they don't think about it
or they don't feel guilt aboutit.

(30:04):
They might be an absolutepsychopath, they might be a
sociopath, they might haveabsolutely no emotional
connection to the thingwhatsoever and they are living
life scot-free anyway.
So for you to live life boundby what they're not being bound
by is so counterintuitive,because, foundationally, the sin
that they've committed is notbinding them.

(30:24):
It's binding you still, andonly unforgiveness can release
you from.
But that is not trust andactually you don't want to.
You actually don't want to testforgiveness.
So this is my view.
I don't think you go abouttesting forgiveness lightly.
I'm like, hey, I wouldn't saythat you know now you've
forgiven that person, give thema call and see how they're doing

(30:46):
.
It's like, no, don't test thatforgiveness, like don't, that's
just, that's dumb.
What you need to do is is thatyou need to acknowledge that
you've forgiven that person, youreleased them, and here's how
you know that you've done thatis that any time that you're
reminded of it, less and less ofan emotional drain on your life
and you can move on quicker andquicker.

(31:08):
As a result, you also know thatyou've forgiven when someone
who reminds you of the personthat hurt you no longer, like,
um, there isn't a triggeringmemory, that you can remember
the person without there being atrigger of the memory of of
what has happened or what hashurt you.
And and I think that there arethese little, these little
markers that test forgiveness,that don't require you to

(31:30):
confront that person necessarily.
Now, I'm not saying that younever do that, but I'm saying,
guys, there's no expectation onthe forgiveness level for you to
somehow walk up to the personand go, hey, just say, no, I
forgive.
You give them a massive hug,but that's just not even real.
It's probably a bit dumb.
And so I'm like, hey, how do weactually narrate forgiveness?
Well, where you don't have toforget the sin that's done

(31:51):
against you, you just don't havethe emotional turmoil that is
associated with sin anymore andyou also don't have to trust
people.
You don't have to now.
You, you need to at some pointtrust people, but you don't have
to.
If you don't trust people forthe whole rest of your life is
understandable.
You don't have to.
That's not.
That's not the command.
Forgiveness is the command, butyou have to.

(32:12):
But without forgiveness youcan't be courageous enough to
trust someone going forward,otherwise you'll always be bound
by the fear that something elselike that will happen to you
and then you'll minimize yourlife if you fail.
And so I think talking aboutyour guy, sort of bringing this
full circle, the sprinting away,is an absolute natural response
to the idea that the thing thathas protected you for a long

(32:34):
time, which is basicallyunforgiveness, is about to be
taken away, and that is scary.
I mean, scary is anunderstatement, it is petrifying
.
I've seen this.
I've obviously social workedfor 10 years.
I've seen this happen again andagain, and again.
And we don't use the Christianlanguage of forgiveness or
boundaries or freedom orwhatever else it is, but when
you, when you ask, I've donethis thing called restorative
justice I don't know if you guysknow what that is, but the

(32:55):
restorative justice it began innew zealand among the maori
tribes, and it's basically thisidea that the, the person who is
the victim, is offered theopportunity to confront the
perpetrator and and what thatmeans is is that they they get
to sit in front of theperpetrator, explain what
happened and how they felt as aresult, and what it's meant to

(33:15):
do is going to be a healingprocess for the for the victim,
but also a learning process forthe perpetrator.
But I've seen many, many peoplerefuse um refuse to go into
those restorative justicesessions, not because they don't
want the perpetrator to hearhow they felt, but because
actually they are very worriedabout viewing the perpetrator

(33:37):
differently when it's finished.
They're really worried thatthat perpetrator will no longer
just be the evil person thatthey want them to be, because
it's their protective mechanismagainst how that person is
treated.
And one of the hardest thingsabout restorative justice for
the victim is is that you go andyou see a whole new side,
probably a more humble side, amore repentant side of a person,

(33:58):
and you're invited into a storywhere you actually are invited
into a forgiveness story and,dude, most people do not want
that because they're happy withpeople in boxes.
And the problem with that, nomatter how hard it is, is that
Jesus never, ever put someonebeyond redemption.
And if we do, we have a problemin our lives because we're

(34:18):
actually holding someone tojudgment in our hearts that God
calls us not to judge them to,so anyway.
So there's a lot there, but Ithink if we can get forgiveness
right what it is and what itisn't, because the other thing
that forgiveness isn't.
Forgiveness is not a waving ofjustice.
It's a waving of your right tomete out your own justice, but

(34:39):
it's not a waving of justice.
Justice will be done either inthe courts or in heaven, and I
think there's something verypowerful about that as well.
But, dude, I've said a lot.
You come back to me.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
It was good, I think.
Yeah, giving like, because welive in a time where words are
just kind of malleable andpeople can define their words
however they want, so kind ofhaving a definition and working
from that departure point.
That person is just going abouttheir life, they're oblivious

(35:15):
to, maybe even the offense theyhave, but they completely own
real estate in your mind and inyour heart, and so, again, it's
like you need to free up thatreal estate so that something
that's life-giving to you canactually take the place.
And I think people, to yourpoint, are worried of like, if I
let this go, I'm then going toexpose myself to something again
, because fear and pain areprotectors for us to some degree
.
But then we have to have areality and I know, like for

(35:38):
myself of you know, when you get, for me, it's like deception.
And then when people are notwalking in the fullness of
integrity and then you feel likeyou're in, your relationship is
something that it's not, that'slike the for me, like deception
is just so crazy.
But basically it's like I havea grip on reality, but actually
that person has twisted realityand so, as time marches on, it's

(36:00):
kind of like you're grabbing asheet and you're going on,
you're going on, you're going on, and then everything kind of
comes to the surface that youdon't have a grip on reality,
and that sheet then snaps backinto place, and so now you have
to kind of regroup.
Then snaps back into place, andso now you have to kind of
regroup and it's just like forthis span of time I was looking
through reality in a lens thatwas not actually real or

(36:21):
accurate.
And now I have to think back oflike, oh, how dumb am I.
And like why did I not see this?
And this person saw, but theydidn't tell me.
And then this person.
And so then you have torestructure, of like, where do
you even put people?
And you talked about trust.
And one of the things, uh, thatI think I picked up at some
point was, if you want toimagine your life, it's like a
bullseye and like or a dartboard, you know, and so it's like

(36:41):
kind of like you're in themiddle of god, and then your
spouse is the next ring, andthen your kids are the next ring
, and then you have like aninner circle of like three to
five people who are kind of likeyour confidants, and you have,
like the rest of the 12 outsideof that, and then you have like
the 72 who are outside of thatand then you have whatever.
But it's basically like howmuch access that people have to
you is going to be dictated bywhere they are in that circle.

(37:03):
And so if me and Tim arefriends and I set like a
standard with Tim of like whereI have to, I have to communicate
what are my expectations of Tim.
My expectation is hey, man, atleast like once a week or
whatever, shoot me a text orcall me or whatever, to let me
know that you actually care ifI'm alive or not, or whatever it
is.
So I communicate theexpectation to you.
So now I've communicated it toyou.

(37:24):
Well, most people live inrelationships where they want
people to mind read, and womenI'm not trying to sling you out,
but women are a lot more guiltyof this than men.
Men are very literal, butthey're like I want you you know
, jennifer Aniston, the breakup.
He's like you, you want me totake the trash out.
I was like I don't want you totake the trash out, I want you
to want to take the trash out.
It's like this weird like thingthat we're trying to do.

(37:45):
But anyways, tim doesn't textme and I've you to text me, so I
know that you care enough thatI'm alive or what my week's
going like.
He doesn't do it.
Does that make Tim bad or wrong?
Not necessarily.
It just means that I'vemisprioritized where Tim is on
the circle.
So I actually need to move Timfarther out to a place where I
can set expectations that he canmeet, so I can set him up for

(38:08):
success to be in relationshipwith me.
I'm just thinking from theperspective of, like, if you
have to go to church with people, you don't have to be friends
with everybody, they don't haveto be your best friend, they
don't have to be closer in, butyou still have to coexist with
them.
So you need to set them up in away.
Sometimes that's even with ourparents.
Sometimes our parents maybe ourparents are 40 to 60% of what
we actually need.

(38:28):
Now we can live our entire lifeembittered that you're not what
I needed to be, or you couldjust have a funeral for that 40%
that they're not.
Embrace and celebrate the 60%they are, place them
appropriately within thosecircles and forgive them for not
being that 40% and then go andfind somebody to facilitate that
in some capacity or have Godfill that void for you, because

(38:51):
maybe it's a him thing.
So I think that's pretty key is, like you know, people have
real estate in our minds andhearts but we're the ones who
control.
Who are the renter Like, and Ialways joke with people that if
I like, really like somebody,I'll say something along the
lines of like, hey, you own realestate in my heart and you
don't.
You don't pay rent.
Meaning, like you know, we'rethings that you touched on.
Uh, can I speak about that?

Speaker 2 (39:17):
you're on the dartboard thing, because I think
, like there's there's a um, soI think you've got the
forgiveness piece and you've gotthe trust piece and then you've
got the how you trust piece,which is the boundary, which is
what you're talking.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, because I think all these things, that's what I
want to talk about, so I'll letyou yeah, so, so, like I think
I think you.

Speaker 2 (39:37):
So you've got the theory of forgiveness, which is
this whole thing of like hey,what does it look like to lay
down your rights?
What does it look like toforgive someone, release someone
, release yourself for the painthat caused you all that stuff?
Then you've got the trust piece, which is okay.
So now that I've been burned bysomeone, by many people, how do
I go about trusting again?
Trusting is not forgiveness.
You don't have to trust people.

(39:58):
It's not a command to trustpeople, but you'll live a very
lonely, isolated life if youdon't trust anything.
It's one of the reasons whysocial media and digital
relationships are so um, sodesired, because a robot will
never break your trust.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
There's no risk.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
That's just to read it zero risk and actually trust
at this point in our lives, orany life is um, is is going to
be correct.
It's going to need courage,it's going to need something
that is that you're going totake a risk on.
So how do you do that?
So how you do that?
So you're talking about thedartboard, like you have you,
and you've got in the middle,you have the spouse and you out,
like that.
But how do you do that withsomeone that's hurt you?

(40:35):
So parents, you've used as anexample.
But let's use I don't know,like I don't know.
Let's just take a relationship.
So a guy has really hurt you.
Dude, I spend a lot of my timewith Gen Z about the amount of
conversations I have with girlsabout how what I would consider
an inconsequential comment by aman that is obliterated.

(40:55):
This happens to me all the time.
But let's take that as anexample.
So you've let this person intoyour house and so you live here,
you're in this house and yourhouse has this door, and then
you've got the pathway, you'vegot the garden or the front yard
, sorry, the front yard.
You've got your fence, and thenyou've got the, the, the
pathway.
You've got the garden or thefront yard, sorry, the front

(41:16):
yard.
You've got your fence and thenoutside the fence.
So the same.
This is the same principle,right?
This person will come into yourhouse.
They really hurt you when youlet them in, like they've.
They've gone around smashingsome windows.
They've gone around smashingsome of your finest china, right
?
And it's like how?
So?
So where?
Where is appropriate for themto be?
They can't be in the houseanymore, right?
So actually they can't be inthe house.

(41:37):
You don't want them there.
So they're outside the fence.
Now they're outside, so sothey're outside the fence, but
they're still there.
You're not going to get rid ofthem.
You're in the same community asthem.
Like you, you're in the samechurch or the same village, or
whatever.
It is same town.
You're going to bump into themsome same college, like whatever
.
And so the question is how doyou live a life of freedom, even
though they're outside?
Because you can live in yourhouse for the rest of your life,

(42:00):
but you will never, ever learnwhat it is to live free.
And so forgiveness is a process,because the first stage of
forgiveness is that now they'reoutside the fence, are you able
to look out the window?
Is that now they're outside thefence, are you able to look out
the window.
So are you able to get up offthe floor where they left you
and look out of that window, andwhen you see them, not ducked

(42:21):
for cover, can you do that?
That's the first step.
They're miles away, they're notgoing to come in.
They can't get in the gate it'slocked.
They can't get in the door it'slocked.
All the protective systems arethere.
But actually, when you see themthrough the window, are you
able to not duck and run forcover and have that thing
trigger you?
And so that's the first stage.
The second stage is this is canyou open the door and walk out

(42:42):
of your house, even thoughthey're outside the fence?
Can you do that?
The next stage is can you walkdown the garden path or wave at
them as they walk past you, asthey go about their normal life
outside of your, outside of your, your, your, your, your, your,
your sphere of influence, whereyou feel safe?
Can you wave?
Let me have a conversation.
Next stage is hey, like whenthey walk past, can you, can you

(43:03):
say hi?
Can you?
Can you have a conversationwith them over the garden gate,
like the front yard gate,whatever you guys call it Like.
Can you?
Can you do that?
And then eventually can you getout of that gate and walk where
they're walking, not with them,but not avoiding them.
You go on that journey offorgiveness where you have

(43:23):
placed those boundaries in place, not so that you could be
protected forever, so that youcould live a life free and they
get to live a life free as well.
Because here's the major lie ofboundary Boundaries aren't for
you, they're not for yourself-protection, they're for the
protection of a relationship.
And so when you have aminimized relationship and you

(43:45):
put these boundaries in place,if you put a boundary in to
protect yourself number one whatyou're doing is you're living
as an orphan because God canprotect you.
That's the whole purpose of itand also the laws there to
protect you.
If you find the police becauseyou've done something bad, they
will get in 100%.
They need to, they should.
When they fail, we have to holdthem to account.
That's the whole purpose ofthat system.
But actually, if it isn't likesome heinous thing that that

(44:07):
person has done, where they alsoexist, where you bump into them
sometimes, where you say hi tothem sometimes and the and the
boundaries you put in place andthat you walk through are to
protect hear me listen to thisare to protect your relationship

(44:28):
with the person that's hurt you.
They're not to protect you,because if, if they're only to
protect you, what that means isis that you're living a life of
a walled, isolated existencewhere, more often than not, no
one can get in, because anybodymight be that person to you.
But if you can walk through thejourney of forgiveness with

(44:49):
someone normally like in ahitting session or whatever it
is, and you're now able to rubshoulders with them in a
community and having completelyreleased them, you're not ever
going to let them in your house,you're not going to let them in
the gate again, you're notgoing to let them in the front
path again, you're not going tolet them anywhere near your safe
space ever again.
But what you are doing isyou're able to have a

(45:17):
relationship with them at thebasic level, that is, that is
available as a result of theaction that they did.
And not only that when you areable to do that through a
process of forgiveness, you getto actually begin to see them as
a person.
That isn't just the action theydid against you, which means
that you get to grow and matureand become a person who doesn't
hold people in boxes but allowsthem to move on, which also

(45:39):
means that you get to move on aswell.
And who knows, there may evenbe restoration of that
relationship and redemption ofthat relationship outside of
heaven on earth.
And so, as we think aboutforgiveness, as we think about
trust, and then as we thinkabout forgiveness, as we think
about trust, and then as wethink about the boundaries that
should be to protect therelationship wherever it is on
the trust continuum either youtrust them completely or you

(46:00):
don't trust them at all, oranywhere in between then we
actually start to put together apicture of what it looks like
to live through and live ajourney of forgiveness that
keeps you free, not ducking forcover in your house every time
someone who has hurt you walkspast you, and there's just
something very powerful toacknowledge that, if we can go
on that journey, that process,that we all live very, very

(46:22):
healthy lives that aren't aboutus but they also are protective
of our hearts.
And that's a powerful narrativeto be in, one of the things that
you said that I actually wantto hear you just develop a
little bit is this idea that, um, that you can't police a person
, you can only police your heart, and actually, if you're so,

(46:42):
you're using law, the law aboutthought policing.
But if we make it broad thanthat, the, the, what, the what
unforgiveness wants to do, isthat it wants to say I am
policing you, I am looking foryou and where you are doing
something wrong, I'm looking foryou, sometimes to back up the
narrative that I have about youand anything that you do that

(47:04):
could be good.
I can't be anything to do withthat, because it changed the
story.
I'd be interested to hear whatyou've got to say about how that
looks in the context offorgiveness, but also this whole
boundary thing about protectinga relationship.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
Yeah, well, I'd say one thing that we've kind of
touched on but Devin said itdirectly is everybody needs a
villain in the story, and whenwe mislabel the villain in the

(47:41):
story, then we're going tomisprioritize relationships and
misprioritize what we're doingsometimes.
I don't know how to get around.
Is is like when Jesus commandsyou to love your enemies and
when you were, you know thetopic of forgiveness would would
play into that.
Um, and there's things thathave happened in my life where
it was really painless toforgive people that, like other

(48:03):
people probably wouldn't, and Idon't.
I don't want to get too muchinto this cause and I don't want
to say I don't want to saysomething too callous, but I
feel like too many people arevictims and they make the trauma
in their life like theiridentity.
And there's just stuff thathappened in my childhood that
would make people vomit if theyknew that people did that to a
child.
I didn't really have a problemforgiving those people,

(48:24):
forgiving my biological parentsto an extent, comparatively,
there's things that other peopledid to me that I basically I
was so small I didn't have a lotof.
We're talking about the thingof trust.
I didn't have a lot of trust togive, because you just trust
people indiscriminately as achild.
So then when I become an adultand I make the conscientious
choice, I'm going to trust youand I'm going to let you in and

(48:47):
you betray my trust.
There was something there aboutlike these people are broken,
drug addict, alcoholic, whateverand they're doing things to me
and it's kind of like they'readults, like they have to be
accountable, but I've kind of Idon't know that's just like my
belief system, how I was able tocompartmentalize.
But these other people arecompletely sober, they're
Christians, but they're totallysnakes, like they're actually

(49:12):
like it's worse because it'slike when it's talking about a
wolf in sheep's clothing, it'slike these are wolves.
I can kind of see these arewolves, these are these are
presenting like sheep.
And I've made people throughoutmy life a villain in the story
and I'll I'll like to the extentof like there's what they've
done to me, but then otherthings start going wrong and I'm
in that kind of like victimmode, that victim narrative, and

(49:33):
so then I'll just well, I'mfeeling bad now as a consequence
of like what they've done to meand it like all build up to
this point and so everythingkind of just goes back and falls
on that person and I'm nottaking real responsibility for
myself.
And I'm not taking realresponsibility for myself and
I'm not really takingresponsibility for how I'm

(49:54):
reacting to what's going onthere.
And one story that came up tome this kind of undermines
everything you said to an extent.
But when I did prison ministrythere was a it's called Kairos
Prison Ministry and in thatministry essentially we would do
these weekends and on theweekends we would go through a

(50:17):
series of talks and everybodysits at a table.
This is your group or yourcommunity, your family, and we
inevitably will talk aboutforgiveness.
And one of the things that youdo in that ministry is you have
cookies, and so churches andpeople just bake tons and tons
and tons and tons and tons ofcookies and you have these bags

(50:37):
or segmented cookies and youcan't use certain kinds of
cookies that have like nuts orfruit or anything in them,
because people can take thoseout and jam locks with them.
It's not about allergies, it'snot stuff like that.
So the cookies are kind ofrepresentative of God's love and
we are coming in with God'slove throughout the prison and
we're gifting that to them.
And then in these talks aboutforgiveness, people will have to

(50:58):
.
There'll be a talk about youhave to actually give cookies to
somebody who's done some, orthat you've done something wrong
too, so you're trying to likemake amends, and you'll go and
you'll give them a cookiedemonstrating God's love and
forgiveness that you're givingto them.
And then there comes a pointwhere you have to give cookies
to people who have wronged you,which is seemingly harder for

(51:22):
most people there.
And when we talk about walkingout forgiveness and trust and
how there's this dichotomy therein prison, if you act
submissive or if you do not actwith vengeance or act with
physical violence towardswrongdoing, it's perceived as
weak.
And if you're perceived as weak, that'll mean that people start
and come demand things of you.

(51:43):
They'll demand your toiletpaper, your shoes, your
commissary item, your sheets.
They'll just start taking stufffrom you.
And so there's a line to walkfor sure of not being want to
perceived as weak because youenter into this spiral of people
abusing you more there.
So the cost of forgivenessthey're seemingly much, much
higher literally than it wouldbe in the normal world.

(52:06):
And there's one instance whereit just worked out like this is
completely divine providence,but on a weekend.
There were two guys who endedup in the same weekend and one
of those guys had ratted on theother guy and got him a drug
charge and I think he was facinglike 15 years in prison because

(52:27):
the other guy had ratted on him.
Well, somehow the planetsaligned and that guy got
transferred, facing like 15years in prison because the
other guy had had ratted on him.
Well, somehow the planetsaligned and and that guy got
transferred.
The guy who ratted gottransferred the same prison that
the guy who, who he had rattedon, was at.
And then somehow they ended upin this same weekend and so
everybody like felt the tensionin the room.

(52:49):
Everybody kind of knew thehistory and when we went through
the talk of forgiveness, atsome point both of them stood up
across the room from each other.
They began walking towards eachother and everyone expected a
shiv or a shank to be pulled outand that they were just going
to go for it right there andsomehow, before people could

(53:09):
react, they embraced each otherand fell down and started
weeping.
So, not to undermine everything, he said you have to let person
back in.
But it was like pretty, thecost was really high for them to
do that.
And again, I think you knowgrace.
Grace is what empowers us toeven engage in that level, but
something that I really strugglewith, uh, in my personal

(53:32):
psychology and that countdown soannoying.
So we lost connection.
We have like a few more minutesto kind of hop on, but one of
the things we were talking aboutwas wasn't recording, was any
anything in life we all, like,by default, are going to be born
into like a specific country,into a specific family, and then
, by default, like we are goingto be born into like a specific
country, into a specific family,and then by default, like we're

(53:53):
going to go to a public schoolor private school or whatever,
and then if our family has acertain religion that they're
following, by default we'regoing to be in that specific
community who's practicing thatreligion, and so, with all the
things I just mentioned, there'slike these prepackaged.
It's like a prepackaged bundleof beliefs and meanings, and so
we just get that handed to us.
So, like within our family,this is what we believe about

(54:13):
money, about sex, about God,about politics, whatever.
And the same thing is going tobe true in our school, same
thing is going to be true in ourdenomination.
And on the flip side, we talkedabout antiheroes and how,
basically, their relationshipwith the rules is breaking the
rules or their relationship withthe establishment is tearing

(54:34):
down the establishment and somesome narratives.
So I guess, like my questionwould be, like Tim, like you're
dealing a lot with Gen Z is howdo you walk out with discernment
of, like you know, there's asaying I eat the, eat the meat
and spell the bones.
Obviously, but likethere'sackaged belief systems
that we can certainly pullwisdom and nuggets from.

(54:54):
And then there's this hyperindividualization where burn it
all to the ground and I'm notactually using critical thinking
, but somehow, even in thatmindset, it's like anarchy can't
even sustain itself, becauseonce we start formulating a
group it's no longer anarchy.
Anarchy can't even sustainitself because once we start
formulating a group, it's nolonger anarchy, so that

(55:15):
hyper-individualization,hyper-progressive liberal, ends
up being into a group thinkingof itself.
It's just a new set ofprepackaged beliefs or whatever.
But how can someone safelynavigate in the pursuit of truth
and wisdom, what to absorb andintegrate into their life and
what to go out and like?
What are?
What are some like rituals orkind of a testing ground, like

(55:35):
okay, I think this sounds goodand whatever.
Like.
What's kind of the orderoperations of like?
If you told me something, I'mlike this sounds good, I think
it feel, or it feels good.
Tim said it feels good, soundsgood.
What will be the orderoperations of like when I'm
taking that, I'm going to, youknow, process it, digest it and
then the integration of thatinto my life to find out if it's
actually good, if it's actuallyright, go yeah, um, yeah, I do.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
We talk a lot about transcendent truth, but there
has to be somewhere where youwhere there is something that is
outside of a cultural dynamic,where or a fat familial dynamic,
where you have somewhere, youhave a um, a book or whatever it
is you know where you actuallyhave something that you can pair
notes with, um.
So for me there's, there's thetruth piece of it.

(56:22):
For the gen zed guys, gen zguys, what what happens is is
that loads of people soundreally convincing, loads of
people are wrong, and so what wehave to do is we have to try
and teach.
One of the things I say in theschool is hey, listen, I'm
really convinced about this.
I know that I can soundconvincing about it, but you
have to go away and figure out,right, because just because I'm

(56:44):
convincing has not meant I'mright.
And we have a lot of people whoI think on social media are
really convincing but they'rewrong, and we have to be aware
of some of those things, right?
So, for example, like I don'tknow if you know, like the straw
man thing, where basically youutilize this fallacy way of

(57:07):
trying to undermine an argumentby basically making it out to be
the weakest that it canpossibly be and it basically
just takes the piss out ofsomeone's point of view.
Or there's one called reductioad absurdum, which is this idea
that if you can reduce someone'spoint of view to where it
applies to the most ridiculousthing, that they would have to

(57:28):
disagree, then you try and proveit wrong on that basis.
So have these different whatI'd say I mean the gen z have
got a lot navigate this.
We have these different peopleonline who basically are just a
bit stupid if I'm really honestwith you, like I'm not not
trying to be offensive, butthere is.
They're not very clever people,they're not intelligent that

(57:49):
they have a point of view andthey pick up like a new atheist
kind of mockery side of things,so that they pick up this way
that actually, if you can makesomeone feel stupid, then you
can probably convince them thatthey're wrong, because how can
they possibly rewrite if theyfeel stupid?
This is what Dawkins does a lot.
He does this a lot.
Dawkins and the new atheistmovement did this a lot.

(58:12):
I mean a huge amount, just asan example, and so one of the
things that I'm trying to teachmy guys, especially on the
school is.
So listen, like we've gonethrough, like the
Judeo-Christian narrative, truth.
So now you've got this platformthat you can bring everything
back to and if it doesn't plugin, you're probably thinking
it's probably not, um.

(58:33):
But not only that, we also tryand help them understand what is
it that someone's trying to doto you or to the thing that you
believe.
So in leicester we're 51 asianand so we have a high population
of muslim type of relation, ofhindus.
But the muslims in particularon the street, they do a lot of
what we would call evangelism.
They follow the set doctrines.

(58:54):
You can't really get them off.
It's like having a Mormon knockon your door when you talk to a
Muslim on the street, aspecific way in which a lot of
the Muslim commentators if youwant one of those guys, his name
is someone hijab Mohammed Jihador someone I can.
Those guys, his name is um,someone, someone, someone hijab
muhammad jihad or someone.

(59:14):
I can't remember the exact name,but what happens is is that
they use these arguments to tryand make people feel stupid.
So I get these kids come to meand jen said they're like hey,
like, we have all theseconversations with muslims.
We have all these conversationsand what they're.
What they do is they stay ontheir script and they basically
say so.
They ask questions like so isJesus God?
Yes, is Jesus the son of Mary?
Yes.

(59:35):
Is Jesus the son of God?
Yes, is Jesus God yes.
So they try and take you onthis cycle where they're trying
to disprove the Trinity orwhatever it might be.
But the big thing is, you haveto understand what the person is
trying to do, and if they'renot having a conversation in
good faith, don't have theconversation, because what?
Because what happens is is thatwe then end up taking taking

(59:55):
this person's point of view andsaying I feel dumb, I feel
ill-equipped, I feel stupid, andso actually I'm going to need
to doubt the things that I holdcore to in my belief system
because someone makes me feelstupid.
But really that's just areduction ad absurdum, or it is
a um or is a straw.
It's a straw man argument, andwhat that means is is that
people aren't really engaged ina conversation.

(01:00:17):
That means anything.
They're actually engaged in aconversation where they're
trying to prove their own point,and if you're engaged in a
conversation like that, thenyou're not going to find truth,
you're going to find a, anopinion, and that someone who is
trying to disprove something asopposed to hold true something.
And so, actually, if you talk tomuslims and try and take them

(01:00:39):
off the script about, oh, likewhen muhammad had this
conversation with the archangeldavid, when this happened, like,
what do you think about that?
Or hey, allah says that you cando this, but he also says you
can do this.
What do you think about that?
Or hey, hey, mohammed had anine-year-old wife.
What do you think about that?
All these things theyimmediately go to defense Mark,
and so there's something reallyor at least that's my experience

(01:01:01):
in terms of what I encounter inbusiness, particularly on the
streets, and so it's just aninteresting dynamic.
So we teach them hey, here's theplatform that you need to plug
into.
Number one, the transcendenttruth that is written down has
been historically proven and theBible is incredibly accurate.
But also, number two, you needto go away and figure out what
the person is trying to do, and,actually, if they're not trying
to have a decent conversation,you're in no way going to be

(01:01:23):
impacted by truth from thatconversation, because what
you're going to end up doing isyou're going to end up having a
cyclical argument aboutsomething that is about one
verse taking completely out ofcontext in the Bible that they
try and prove is, I don't know,jesus wasn't God, or Mary wasn't
a virgin, or Jesus wasn'tcrucified.
It's just like there's no pointin doing it.
So we try and teach them someof those skills as well, but I
think that if we are going toteach Gen Z how to navigate what

(01:01:46):
truth is, then we're going tohave to teach them how to, how
to understand, how to get totruth, and you have to have a
foundational platform for that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
They have to learn how to um perceive truth in a
conversation yeah, I listened tothe like peterson and uh
dawkins had a podcast togetherand it exhausted me.
I didn't even listen to thewhole thing, which is not
typically like me, but likedawkins was just like hardcore
about.
So do you believe that Cain andAbel was an actual person?

(01:02:14):
Do you believe that those wereactual people?
And Peterson was just saying, Idon't know, I don't know if,
like, that was the actual dealor if, like, that's the people,
that's the name that we gave tothose people, because that story
just got circulated.

(01:02:45):
I don't know, but the story islike true and true and for me it
doesn.
During Easter, and he wasdisturbed to the point where he
said, well, actually, I'm acultural Christian and I find
myself at home in the Christianethos and I love hymns and I
love chapels and I love you know.
And then Peterson just askedhim what did you mean by that?
And he like got, he gets reallydefensive.
He'll say things and he getsreally defensive to try to push

(01:03:07):
himself away from it.
And then sometimes there's nota full ownership of him being
misleading.
Like he wrote a book and therewas something that he said in
the book and then he wasconfronted about it in an
interview and he just admittedyes, it was wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
It was the blind watchmaker.
In the 1980s he released a bookwith the blind watchmaker.
Basically, he said thatevolution has proven how life
began and it and it doesn't.
Evolution, if you believe it,can only prove how life, um, how
life continued after it began.
But what's interesting is isthat when he's confronted with
some of those things, um, isthat either he doubles down or

(01:03:45):
it's just like it's wrong.
So so I think there's all thosethings I've got to run, but but
it's it an interestingnarrative.
We're not philosophicalcreatures anymore.
We don't think anymore.
We feel now.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
That's the big issue we feel.
But yes, and I think that, andour feelings are generally
misleading.
I think that's a part of it.
I think a part of it and I hadthis conversation before is we
have been absolutely conditionedto think that the accumulation
of information equates to wisdomor knowledge, and our school

(01:04:17):
system is set up in a way whereI absorb what you're telling me,
I regurgitate back what youtold me and you will rate me on
a scale of one to six or A to F.
How well can I regurgitate whatyou told me?
You're telling me what to think, You're not telling me why I
should be thinking and you'renot telling me different modes
of how to think and absorb thatinformation.

(01:04:37):
And it creates all these weirdparadigms within people on how
they then disassimilate orsynthesize information that
they're getting.
And yeah, to your point, evenif you're going to debate people
, we've lost really the art ofdebate because you have to frame
it in and then stick to therules of how you framed in that
actual discussion.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
And what I say to my guys all the time is look,
debate is important.
If you're trying to formulateideas, if you're trying to
convert or convince, actuallyconversation is how you do that,
not debate, becauseconversation builds relationship
at which you can exchange ideas, and so debate forms ideas.
For me, like ideas,conversation form relationships,

(01:05:18):
and I think debate is powerful.
But often what we find is isthat we think that debate needs
to change.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
Rarely does debate need to change oh, tim, don't
you know that so many peoplehave converted in my way of
thinking because of facebookcomments that I make on their
posts?
Right, I've, bro.
I've converted so many peoplereligiously and politically to
my point just by commenting athree-line statement, and I love
.

Speaker 2 (01:05:43):
I love the idea that social media has forged that lie
in our culture.
This doesn't work.
It's why we polarized.
Everyone agrees on the thingsthey agree with, and they
polarize because we don't buildrelationships.
And the way we buildrelationships is actually we
have a conversation and lovesomeone, but that takes a long
time.
We can't debate them into faith, we have to love them into
faith.
It's the kindness that leadsthem to repentance and actually

(01:06:05):
there's something very powerful.
So so why?
This is last I want to say, butI've I've all my guys like like
gen z, guys are out on thestreets, they're preaching,
they're evangelizing, whateverthey're doing, come across a
muslim and this and, and it'sjust back and forth, and it's
like trying to have an argumentlike guys just just short
circuit it.
So what?
So then what I say to them isthis is how you do it.
You put your hand on them andsay hey, brother, can I pray for

(01:06:26):
you?
He will normally say yes.
Then, um, you say in the nameof jesus, I ask that isa reveals
himself for you in your dreamstonight.
Amen.
You walk away, done.
You do it because you sow aseed and you basically say isa
is jesus, he's going to revealhimself for your dreams and then
you leave it and you let god dothe rest, because you're not
going to get that relationship.

(01:06:47):
But jesus can create thatrelationship and I'm saying,
yeah, you got a short, you youhave.
We had a short circuit, thatdebate yeah, anyway, I got wrong
.

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I'll let you go after I get my
last word.
I think, to your point, if you,yeah, if we're going like, okay
, logic the logic.
But, like I said, in thebeginning of the quran it says
this book is for anybody seekingthe creator of everything that
exists and wants.
No doubt it's a very powerfulstatement, okay.

(01:07:14):
So you ask the person that doyou want to know the creator of
everything that exists,definitively, no matter who that
being is, no matter what?
Like are you in that pursuit oftruth?
And yes, okay, if that being isoutside of Islam, would you
still accept him?
Yes, no, okay, no, that'sirrational.
You just said yes.

(01:07:35):
Now you're saying no, you'vealready fold in, which is it
Okay?
Yeah, once we get to yes, okay,yes, even if it's out of Islam,
cool, so let's pray to thatbeing, right now, the creator of
everything that exists.
I want you as long as it's you,and if it's not you, I don't
want you.
Come in conviction, authorityand power in my life and then
for me it's just like at thatpoint, because you're not going

(01:07:56):
to logic, if you do win, if youdo reason people into your
perspective, that's probably aweaker minded person who will be
reasoned out of it by somebodyelse who comes along, who's a
lot more clever than you are.
But if somebody has a kind oftransfigurational experience
this is something dawkinsreference he's like you cannot
have a.
You cannot reason with peoplewho believe that they have a

(01:08:18):
relationship with god.
He said I don't even tryanymore.
And danny silk said one timehe's like a man with an
experience has power over a manwith an argument.
There can be definitelydelusion.
A lot of things we could sayabout that.
It's a a longer conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
Yeah, because you have to apply reason to that
experience.
It's just that experience isnot defined or it's not defined
by the experience.
The experience is not definedby the reason.
The reason informs theexperience and actually, you
know, I took psychedelic drugsand it might be Jesus, it might
not, but there's all that stuffin there.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
Yeah, but it's a longer conversation, but I'll
let you get up and I'll try toedit this and make it
intelligible uh for people prayto god.
That the next one we doactually like just there's no
hitches and we just go off andyeah, I.

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
I just don't know what the jam is and I don't know
if it's because it's this, this, this thing.
Anyway, I love you man.
Thanks for time.

Speaker 1 (01:09:04):
Love you buddy have a good one love you, bye, bye,
bye and that's it.
As we bring this conversation toa close, take a moment, reflect
on what we unpacked today.
Forgiveness, trust, boundariesthese aren't just abstract
concepts.
They're practices, choices andchallenges that shape the very

(01:09:27):
core of who we are, andchallenges that shape the very
core of who we are.
So, as you reflect, askyourself where in your life are
you holding on to pain thatcould be released through
forgiveness?
Where have you built up wallsthat could be softened into
boundaries?
And where are you withholdingtrust, not because others have
failed you, but because fearholds you back?

(01:09:52):
Growth doesn't happen all atonce.
It's small, deliberate stepsthat we choose to take every day
.
So start small, choose onerelationship to invest in one
boundary, to strengthen onetruth to pursue and remember.
Healing and growth requirepatience, but they're worth
every moment of the effort.

(01:10:12):
If you found this episodemeaningful, take a moment, share
it with somebody who needs tohear it.
We're on Spotify, applePodcasts, wherever you get your
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Your feedback helps us grow,but also helps others discover

(01:10:36):
these kind of conversations and,as you step into the new year,
may you do so with courage,clarity and compassion.
Thank you for listening.
Until next time, take care,keep growing and have a very
happy new year.