When Belonging Becomes a Brand: The Quiet Death of True Community

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What happens when the Church trades the slow, sacred work of forming souls for the quick, efficient business of managing consumers?

In this episode, we wrestle with a pressing question: how has the industrial spirit  once meant to build economies  crept into the heart of the modern church, reshaping worship, community, and even our understanding of faith itself?

Tim Churchward and I trace the deep consequences of industrialization: how churches, once centered on covenant and family, have come to mirror factories producing branded experiences, segmenting congregations by age and preference, and measuring success not by lives transformed, but by numbers counted.

The individualism that characterizes modern Protestant culture stands in stark contrast to the ancient wisdom of Eastern Orthodoxy, which sees faith not as a solitary journey, but as life lived in and through community.

The conversation confronts the painful truth: in chasing relevance and scale, many churches have fractured the family, weakened the bonds between generations, and commodified the sacred into the consumable. Worship music, ministry programs, even community itself are marketed like products and souls starve while churches grow fat on attendance metrics.

Yet, there is hope, but it is the old kind of hope: hard-won, disciplined, and rooted in reality. True discipleship demands presence. True community demands sacrifice. Men and women today are not crying out for spectacle; they are yearning for belonging, for truth, for the kind of relationships that weather storms, not just fill pews.

We must ask ourselves: will we continue to adapt to a culture of consumption, or will we return to the hard, beautiful work of covenant? Will we choose the broad road of industrial faith, or the narrow path of slow, costly, authentic community?

The future trajectory of the Church and the shape of the soul of the next generation depends on the answer.

#FaithAndResponsibility
#SpiritualFormation#CounterculturalFaith
#CovenantOverConsumption
#FaithfulNotFamous
#ReclaimingCommunity
#DiscipleshipOverNumbers
#FaithInTheModernWorld
#ChurchAfterIndustrialization
#BuildRealCommunity
#OrthodoxFaith
#FaithfulLiving

#FaithAndCulture
#ChurchLeadership
#ModernChristianity
#Deconstruction
#ChurchCommunity
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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Map.
Today we confront a series ofquestions that strike at the
heart of faith, culture and thehuman spirit.
Tim and I wrestle with thegrowing tension between
individualism and community,tracing its effects from the
ancient traditions of EasternOrthodoxy to the sprawling

(00:24):
corporate-like structure of themodern-day megachurch.
In a world that prizes autonomyand consumption above covenant
and responsibility, the churchfaces a grave challenge to
remain rooted in the eternaltruth while navigating a culture
that cheapens the sacred into aspectacle.
Industrialization hasn't justchanged how we work.

(00:48):
It's changed how we worship,how we think and how we sense
belonging.
This conversation moves beyond acritique.
It calls us to remember thatlife is not an entitlement but a
gift given with the expectationof stewardship.
And suffering is not somedetour from the path but a forge

(01:12):
where character and faith arerefined on the path.
And family and friendship, true, sacrificial, covenantal family
and friendship cannot be bought, it cannot be optimized and it
must not be commodified.
If the church is going toendure which it will, spoiler
alert it must resist thetemptation to measure success by

(01:38):
numbers alone and insteadrebuild the bonds of community
with courage, humility and love.
The future of faith depends noton adapting to culture, but on
standing firm against its mostcorrupt, corrosive tendencies.
You're invited in thisconversation.
That demands some thought,demands a little bit of honesty

(02:00):
and it's going to demand much ofyou if you're going to act out
on it as all worthwhile thingsdo.
Again, welcome my friend TimChurchward to the map 9-0, all
engines running, let's go.
Yeah, well, I don't know if themoderator is just going to be

(02:22):
like a wallflower and sittingthere and pushing us along and
reeling us in, but anyway.
So we're talking about etherand orthodoxy and priesthood and
talking about how the idea ofindividualism and an individual
can just kind of speak out intothe ethos and the traditions, as

(02:42):
well as mysticism and howthat's really a fairly new thing
.
And you said I'm getting readyto go on a tirade, so I threw
the recording on.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
So fire away.
The thing with EasternOrthodoxy is that it's all about
community.
So Eastern way of thinking isnot about the individual as a
unit.
As someone who has individualthoughts, I mean, they don't
deny that clearly but there isthis sense in which a unit, um,
as someone who has individualthoughts, I mean they, they
don't deny that clearly butthere is this sense in which we
are a community of people and wecreate the body of christ.

(03:10):
If we are in christ and so weare his body, we are subsumed
into that.
It's why transubstantiation isso important for all folks in
catholicism anyway.
But I think there's, there's areally there's.
This is a really interestingnarrative in terms of the
Protestant evangelical vision ofthe individual with their right
to their opinion.
Normally, when I have I thinkabout this today, whenever I

(03:31):
hear someone say you know, I'vegot my right to my own opinion,
I'm like, yeah, you do, but youropinion's stupid, so you
probably shouldn't have it or atleast think about it
differently.
For me, it's just a reallybizarre thing that we have this
individual right to an opinion,even though we have absolutely
no grid as an individual for whywe think the way we think or

(03:51):
how we think the way we think,but not even just that.
We feel entitled that what wethink must at least be right for
us and therefore carry someelement of truth, which also is
complete rubbish, so anyway.
So the individual part of it isjust a bit of a bizarre thing
for me, coming from a Protestantbackground, studying Eastern
Orthodoxy in some prettysignificant depth from this PhD
that I'm doing.

(04:11):
I do see some of the pointsthat they make.
But what I really want to talkabout, outside of that little
bit, was this idea of theindividual becoming a commodity,
the person, the human becominga commodity, the person, the
human becoming a commodity inthe nature of Protestantism,
evangelicalism, pentecostalism,charismania, whatever you want
to call it, and particularly inthe Western modern understanding

(04:35):
of the church on the basis andwith a foundation of
industrialisation as a root ofthat.
So there's this guy called PaulTillich.
I think he died in the 70s or80s.
He wrote in the 60s and 70s forall theologians.
He wrote an amazing little book, tiny little book If you're
interested.
It's called the Theology ofCulture.
Paul Tillich.
He was a German who exited aNazi regime from Germany and was

(04:59):
settled in America and spoke alot, a lot about this idea of
the original philosophy beingtheology, and if that is true,
then there has to be atheological reason for culture,
and orthodoxy would reallysuggest that every single
individual person as part of acommunity creates something
cultically, as in within thecontext of how they create

(05:19):
culture around them that isdivine because they're made in
the image of God.
So this idea that we arecreating constantly culture
around us that is divine becausethey're made in the image of
God, so this idea that we arecreating constantly culture
around us that is in some waydivine is a real aspect of
orthodox thinking, because then,instead of Christianity being
combative and trying to kill thethings that are wrong, it
reorientates or Americans say,reorients the things that are

(05:43):
wrong thinking into rightthinking.
So, for example, that's why theoriginal Christianity,
particularly within the contextof the Roman Empire, but
Orthodox Christianity would havebeen about taking pagan
festivals, partnering in termsof the celebration, but twisting
the meaning towards Christ.
So that's reorientating thenature of the individual culture

(06:04):
that is created throughwhatever the image of that
people group was, the image ofChrist that they held, the image
of God that they held and thenreorienting it back into the
holiness of God himself.
So it's just really fascinatingto me.
But on that basis, one of thethings that we see a lot in our
culture is that the church see alot in our culture is that the

(06:26):
church we see this a lot in megachurches, but the church in
general is responding to westernculture in the way that western
culture has defined itself.
So instead of a church beingcounter-cultural, in my
experience the church capitalcity we are actually being
molded by culture.
So what I mean by that is thatif we look at how the
industrialisation process hasbegun since the mid-1700s or mid

(06:51):
to late 1700s, through into the1800s, through into the 1900s,
what's happened is that we'veseen this incredible shift away
from local small communities,family-orientated community and
family-orientated parishchurches, which look after the
needs of the people, to thismass migration from country and

(07:11):
community into inner cities andthe creation of basically huge,
huge cities.
And what happens is that you goto the city because you get paid
more than the country.
This is very crude, but I'mjust giving you the basics.
You get paid more than youwould in the countryside because
that is the promise of what itmeans if you sell your soul to a

(07:32):
business.
So, for example, you go intothe steel mills sorry, the paper
mills or you go into the minesin Wales or whatever.
The community aspects of thatpre-industrialisation although
industrialisation took it over,there's much more community
there.
But what you have as you go into, like the printing presses and
all of these things that happenin the cities, you have the

(07:52):
commoditization of theindividual being.
I am a person and I have timeand I have energy and capacity
and I will sell my soul, sell mylife to earn more money and get
a better life on the basis offinancial remuneration, although
never in health, by the way.
In cities the smogs killed mostpeople over the course of their

(08:13):
lives.
So, ironically, you sold yoursoul for the financial benefit
for your family but killed themin the process physically, and I
mean that's a really, reallypowerful symbol of what goes on
in Western culture.
You sell your soul for theimmediate gratification of what
you think is better, but in thelong term you actually minimize
the foundational narrative ofyour family life.
It's why God of Covenant is aGod who wants sacrifice and does

(08:38):
himself sacrifice in the moment, in the present, in order to
preserve and protect and thenpromote the future, and on the
future of humanity anyway.
So then we have this reallyinteresting narrative that
industrial industrializationbecomes, while the commodity is
a human being.
But it's worth it for youbecause you consume the thing
that you produce.
So the thing that you producecreates wealth, creates money,

(09:01):
mainly for the top dude, butactually for you as well,
because he'll pay you for yourtime, you know, in a way that is
far greater than what you'veever received farming.
But what's absolutelyfoundational, at least to me, is
that then what happens is isthat the individual, as they
become a commodity, theyactually sell their soul for the
product that thatindustrialized business brings

(09:22):
to them.
And so then, if you look at thechurch, the modern day church,
what we do is we follow thatmodel.
This is my view.
I'm not saying, oh, I thinkyou're right, this is not every
church, I'm talking to you aboutmy experience of church in
general in the West.
And so what happens is that wetend to follow that model.
So we say to people come intous.
We're not coming to you, we'regoing to create something, going

(09:45):
to create a business model or abrand or whatever it is.
Come into the church and giveus your time and your money.
Give us your time and yourmoney and which, if which,
effectively commoditizes theindividual.
Now, there's nothing meant tobe there and no pastor's going.
I'm commodifying.
I'm commoditizing all of mypeople.
That's not what they think, butwhat that's basically.
It's following the samestructure of the industrial
revolution, and then whathappens is is that you then

(10:08):
continue to create a better andbetter and better product that
validates these individualsgiving all of their time and a
lot of their money to it.
Do you know?
Am I making any sense?
So we follow this reallyinteresting dynamic of the
industrial revolution where weinvite people in to a city
center, into the hub of what itis that the product is going to

(10:29):
be, how we're going to produce.
They're coming in as individualpeople who are willingly laying
down their money and their time, which isn't necessarily a
problem.
I'm just highlighting somestuff.
And then the product begins, thebrand begins to get better and
better and better, and thethousands and thousands and
thousands of pounds are spent ontechnological equipment or

(10:50):
paying the pastor or privatejets or whatever it might be,
and we end up having the CEO ofbusinesses or the founders of
those businesses, of thosechurches, becoming incredibly
wealthy or at least incrediblywell known and obviously, within
that context, generous andphilanthropic, of course.
But there is also this sense inwhich we have the, the church

(11:11):
becoming the model of a businessand I wonder whether or not
that's a good thing or a badthing really, because the
commoditization of theindividual foundationally
represents the church taking onthe structure of the society as
opposed to being the countercultural narrative to it.
Anyway, I said quite a lotthere.
I don't know if you've gotanything to say about that.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, have you ever seen the show the Righteous
Gemstones?
You ever heard about this show?

Speaker 2 (11:37):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (11:37):
American, yeah.
So I had a buddy of mine whoknows kind of my background.
He's like, have you ever seenthe Righteous Gemstones?
I'm like, no, I don't know whatthat is.
And then I got on YouTube andwatched a couple of clips of it.
I'm like, yeah, probably notgoing to watch this show, but
it's Danny McBride.
He can be pretty funny, butit's Danny McBride, john

(11:57):
Goodman's in it, there's severalcomedians in it, but it's
basically making fun ofmegachurch, like televangelist
kind of personalities.
So you watch it.
I mean, they just it's you kindof they're not doing it to
intentionally, I think like makefun of like Jesus or like the
Ecclesia or like anything likethat, but they really are just

(12:18):
thumbing their nose hard onthese people who scam people out
of their money.
Like the one guy I'm sureyou've seen a clip, I'm sure
you've seen clips of it but he'sjust like people ask me how
much money did you make fromthis water here?
He's like, after I pay myscientists and these people and
these people and these peoplenot a dime and I do it all to

(12:39):
make the world a better place.
But he's like I don't know,just like the scammiest of the
scammiest, for like thesetelevangelists, like megachurch
kind of pastors.
But no, I think it's aninteresting parallel to pull,
like you were talking aboutpeople leaving, like why you're
what, you're giving up to livelike a life in the countryside,
you're with your family, you'reliving intergenerationally,

(12:59):
you're out in the sunshine, yougot clean air, you have purpose.
But like economically, likeyour gdp is going to look like
this forever.
But you're, you know, you, you?

Speaker 2 (13:09):
have rights for your children to become adults.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
All that stuff, that's all lost
industrialization yeah, and soyou trade that off to go to the
city and, like you know, we'reall, like people are really
strong.
I have to strongly question,like, do I like?
Because the concept of thekingdom is, is is family
ultimately.
And what do people say whenthey start coming into money and
they move to a city?
Is like, can we afford to haveanother kid?

(13:32):
Because you have taken likecosts to get that kid to school
or health care and food and likeyour expenses will will go up.
And I did like the math once,like on diapers, like disposable
diapers, depending on like thelength of time that you have
your kid.
On average, I thought it wassomething between the math I did
was five to eight thousanddollars on diapers, and that's
why I was living in germany,where the prices might be a

(13:54):
little bit cheaper than in thestates.
But yeah, you're looking ateight, five to eight k per kid,
per diapers.
Dude, ten, ten money, get thephoto yeah, yeah, so so yeah,
it's an interesting, interestingthought.
I mean, like when did you see,like from your perspective I

(14:15):
guess, like america and europeit's there's always going to be
a little bit, a little bitdifferent but like from your
perspective, when do you seethis model becoming like more
popular and kind of takingtraction in in in europe, of
like kind of branded, uh likebusiness structured, kind of
church hierarchy, that kind ofstuff?

Speaker 2 (14:35):
for me it's hillsong coming to the uk or coming to
europe.
That that's the first time Isaw it, um, and and here.
So what I want to be clear isthat I'm not criticizing this,
I'm quite.
I'm just I'm criticising this,I'm just trying to ask some
questions.
So I think when I saw Hillsongcome, and when I saw because we
saw parts of it, like I don'tknow if you've heard Delirious

(14:56):
or- the happy song and all therest of it.
We saw music really take this on.
So we all the rest of them, butI mean we saw music really take
this on right.
So we saw the popularity ofmusic particularly begin to
really impact the church.
So we saw, like, delirious getto the top 20 with this song

(15:18):
called Deeper in, like I don'tknow, like 1990-something,
something you know.
So I think there was thisreally interesting dynamic and
then the church really got onthe back of this.
Um, let's do music well, sovineyard did that powerfully.
Um, vineyard in the uk is thehighest grossing album,

(15:38):
christian album of all time.
Pretty sure was coming out oftime to worship and and actually
the guys that I go to churchwith, the guys that lead that
church, they were the ones whofound the girl who wrote some of
those songs on the album.
And so then it became aboutmusic and it became about
product very, very quickly.
Because what people realisedwas this is my observation, this

(15:58):
is anecdotal, this isn't mesaying I've done some massive
research.
This is what I've seen.
I was born in 86.
And I've sort of watched thetrajectory and out of the house
church movement, which was the70s and 80s, the charismatic
renewal house church movement.
What happened was is that thosechurches freaking exploded, bro
.
They exploded, they wereabsolutely massive and they all

(16:21):
started buying buildings orgiving buildings because the
wealthy people started enjoyingthem all that stuff.
And then what happened was isthat they had to figure out how
do we do corporate worship?
Well, so the electric guitar'snot coming in, the drums start
coming and all that sort ofstuff, and then then the music
and the way that we worship andhow we worship communally and
corporately become a reallyimportant aspect of it, as it

(16:43):
always has been, but in a verymodern way.
And then hillsong came andhillsong united and maybe jesus
culture just slightly afterwardsand there was this rocket boom.
It's like.
So australia and america, bothrepresented there, and your
people before they're likegateway, were doing stuff, like
they were doing all thosedifferent, different bits and
pieces, and obviously bethelcame off the back of that bethel
music and they got theelevation worship Worship guys.

(17:04):
You've got the Upper RoomWorship guys.
You've got like all of thesepeople and if you have the right
amount of technology, the rightamount of money, the right
amount of expertise and gift andall that sort of stuff, you can
create a product that everybodywants, and music really was the
beginning point of this, atleast in my living memory, which
was where we would invest ourmoney, our time in a product

(17:25):
that would, yes, bring people togod, draw people into encounter
with him, normally emotionally.
So what you'd find with withparticularly music orientated or
worship orientated churches,there's a high level of
emotional engagement, um, whichdraws people in.
It switches lots of people offso they'll never touch the
basketball, particularly menactually like it draws people in
.
And then what happens is whatyou'll notice is that you'll

(17:46):
notice that the pastors, whenthey minister or when they or
they preach or whatever else itis, it's quite polemic and it's
also quite emotionally driven,so they get people forward or
they pray for people in theevening, or none of it's a bad
thing.
I'm just saying, like you havethe heightened emotion of
awareness of God in terms of themusic, then you have the

(18:07):
product of the music and thenyou have people drawn into an
emotional encounter with God,more than more than anything
else in my experience in thesesorts of churches.
So I think that's the trajectorythat I saw or that I've seen,
and I mean the Orthodox Churchabsolutely hate the charismatic
expression of.
They see it as propaganda.
So so the orthodox church wouldlook at the charismatic renewal

(18:29):
churches in in like 2020sonwards or in 2010s or whatever,
and they'd be like this isemotional propaganda.
That's what they'd say.
They'd be like you're stirringup something in an individual to
draw them into an encounter ordraw them into something which
is an emotional stirring andactually isn't really real.
Anyway, that aside, that's when, that's when the that's when

(18:50):
you come and say, okay, I want,I, I feel so good in this church
, I feel like so amazing here,not because of the community or
because the local aspect of itor because there's families or
whatever, but because theproduct that I receive.
And then churches started takingtheir kids out.
So churches start taking thekids out of the environment of
the main service and creating akids' church.

(19:11):
And again, there's not aproblem.
I'm just saying this is thetrajectory.
And so what happens is that thefamilies, the family-orientated
church, kind of dies a death,unless you do a picnic once a
year in the summer or whatever.
But what happens is that thekids go out and do the kids
church, which they love, by theway, this is what our church
does.
They love it.
The adults don't have the kidsscreaming.

(19:32):
And if the kid does scream, youknow you better get out in 15
seconds, even if everyone saysyou know it's not, but you
better get out because you're.
Yeah, in the words of benny hit, take that baby out before the
anointing leaves, you know.
And so I think that there'sthis really interesting dynamic
journey there, which is now wehave people who are buying into
a product, primarily worshipmusic, which is great.

(19:55):
I actually really enjoy thatmusic.
I mean, I buy into that product, I'm part of what I'm talking
about.
And then you have the fractureof family in the context of the
church.
You have the fracture of familyin the context of the church,
and then you have this veryinteresting dynamic where then
you get spectators, you getpeople that come for them, and
you also get people who arenominal christians who come to

(20:16):
the church with the best music,and we see this really
interesting dynamic happen andit's an exact representation of
western culture.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
That's what it's a response to western culture yeah
, so there's a few differentthings to impact there.
I mean, like before we likejumped on, hit the recording, I
mean just to like kind of framethis a little bit how we're
gonna unpack what you just saidis we talked a little bit about
how, like, there's differentstructures of government that

(20:47):
you could follow and we talkedabout you could have tyranny,
you could have democracy, youcould have an oligarchy, a
democracy or aristocracy, andyou could do the same thing in
church.
You kind of see these waves andmovements of like what you're
talking about, of like when youcome out of very and europe has
experienced this for a longperiod of time as well as
America, like America, we've hadlike strong Protestant roots,

(21:08):
like through.
But so like kind of what youexperience with like the good
priest in the middle of the townis running the town in Europe.
Europe is built in semi-circlesaround the spire and people
want to look up because they'relooking for God, and the good
priest is there to be the oracle, to kind of lead us, and so

(21:31):
it's almost the equivalency ofwhat we've seen in the 70s and
80s in america and theshepherding movement, which it
was a very like driven, drivento like how to say it emphasized
like submission andaccountability and discipleship
basically is what it was likekind of emphasizing.
But what I like made space forwas and you could have like
strong bonds there, but it'slike just cult.
Basically it's tyranny, likeit's like the bottom of that
like rung of what like we arguedof aristotle or plato, whoever
who's famous, but like um andthen.

(21:53):
So then that gave way tochurches like what you're
describing of.
They try to make like what'scalled seeker friendly churches.
There's people who have beenkind of like burnt by that and
so now they're trying to make itmore attractive, which is more
like democracy, kind of shapedby the appetite of people and
not like necessarily a specificdenomination.
So we have a rise ofnon-denominational churches

(22:14):
where you were saying beforelike we have to come in and kind
of wrestle with troop and shapehow we're going to interpret
scriptures, and then it justcame more about like we want
church to kind of feel goodthere and that.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
We want church to be for the new person coming in
specifically.
To be a game in a way that isreal for them, even if it's not
deep or even true.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
Yeah, so you're trading.
So instead of going narrow anddeep, you're going broad and
shallow and within thatshallownessess you're watering
down things.
To accommodate, I say, like onchurch people but people who
have no background in faith, tolike make them feel normal,
you'll start watering down jesushimself.
And so one of the results ofthat is you can get some
cultural relevance, because nowyou're getting numbers, so now

(22:59):
you can kind of shape culture ina town a little bit and people
could make the argument like.
I remember I had a haitianfriend once and he just said
this is back way back in the day, but he was talking about joel
olstein.
He's like every single messagethe guy gives an invitation for
people to give their life tojesus.
Jesus is responsible for thesepeople.
Like the guy, maybe he's uh,greedy, maybe he does it for

(23:23):
whatever, but his perspectivewas kind of in line with that.
Like numbers, like that's wherelike impact is being made of,
like getting in front of as manypeople that that can hear, and
that kind of created the yep.
Okay, so that that saying allthat to say like, so that's more

(23:44):
of like a democracy thing ofbeing led by the masses, letting
the masses kind of drive it,and then that set the platform
for what you're talking about,which is more of an oligarchy,
where now people take note andnow I can make a brand, now I
can brand the type of churchthat we're going to be and
market that that and create aneconomical engine out of that

(24:07):
and then commoditize people tobuild this thing and you have to
come under the brand and nowyou're giving your time, your
energy, your resources and, inthe same way that you traded off
your time and energy andresources to leave mom and dad
at the farm where they couldwatch your kids and you could
live intergenerationally, you'retrading that to give as much
time as you can to build thisthing that you really don't have

(24:32):
any real stake in, like you dowith your family, because if you
die, your family's going tocome.
If you like I don't know likeyou're in the same way, you went
into the factory.
The branded institutionalChristianity can be, in that way
, a factory.
So the impact there is againyou're having more cultural

(24:53):
influence, you're creatinginfrastructure and what I
witnessed, or what I saw, wasthat people there are certain
people who have like thisconcept of the seven mountains
society, seven fears society,now the oligarchy of the
mountain of religion, so tospeak, and their own teaching
was it's our job now toinfluence culture, to shape
culture again for the brand, forthe brand, the mini kingdom

(25:15):
inside the kingdom.
And so now, politically, orfamily, or education or
economics or whatever, and sothis kind of gave rise to like
and I've seen people do thislike they were a worship leader
and now all of a sudden they'rea social media influencer
selling business courses online.
So they've kind of leveragedthe vehicle of a brand to go
influence another sphere ofsociety.

(25:38):
So it's I'm not saying good orbad or whatever, because I don't
know the motives of people, butagain, like, in this model, we
have abandoned completely thatfamily actually is the core
value, that when Jesus is beingbaptized and a voice comes from
heaven, it didn't say this is mynew CEO, this is God.

(26:03):
Could have said anything I jokesometimes.
He could have said this isGilgamesh, this is Chewbacca,
this is uh, whatever.
But he said this is my son.
So it's a declaration of, likethe invisible God, the creator
of the universe, the master ofthe universe, is saying that he
can have a relationship withhumans like that, that this is
going to be my son and whom I'mwell pleased, and so it was a

(26:23):
revolution of like.
Okay, jesus is coming to revealthe invisible, god, reveal that
kingdom, that authority, thatstructure, that system.
And that system starts off thebasis of family.
And when you lose the concept offamily, then you're abandoning
and sacrificing and prioritizingsomething else, and so when

(26:46):
something else then startscompeting with the priority,
then I can get a little bit morepointed with my speech of like,
what are you doing?
And I can speak to like inAmerica, to your point.
Like Francis Chan said thislike if you have people,
like-minded people, good music,good speaker, and with money,

(27:10):
you can build a big church.
You don't need God to do that.
And when I was in Europe foreight years, I saw people trying
to copy and paste stuff.
The issue is they don't have asmuch money.
They can't do it.
Americans.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
And also, like in Europe, we don't.
We have a far higher level ofcynicism when it comes to
emotional engagement with things.
Yeah, so one of the big thingsabout the growth of the church
in the UK is that it'sfundamentally Pentecostal,
politically black AfricanPentecostal growth.
That's where the majoritygrowth is right.

(27:41):
It's not among white Europeans,it's not Some, of course.
Do you know where most of thewhite Europeans are going growth
?
That's where the majoritygrowth is right.
It's not among white europeans,it's not some, of course.
Do you know where most of thewhite europeans are going?
Orthodoxy, because there's thisreally interesting narrative
where people want to know thetruth.
They, particularly men men aremen are desperate for truth.
They're not really thatbothered about putting their
hands in the air jumping around.
Some are.
I love that.

(28:02):
I mean I'm I love that.
There's no issue.
I like flopping around like afish every now and again, but
actually for most men they'relike tell me the truth and I'll
live by the truth.
This is the Jordan Petersonphenomenon.
On the flip side, it is theAndrew Tate phenomenon.
Andrew Tate obviously is anawful character, but as a
sociological phenomenon we haveto understand his place in the

(28:25):
cultural conversation, becausehe is basically saying this is
what men are, and men are likeoh great, I didn't realize I
could be that I can be reallystrong and really masculine and
really powerful and all thatjazz.
Anyway, I'm going to go off ona tirade about that, but
actually there's.
There's something about thefamily piece that's really
important there, because if thegreat, if the greatest sexual
revolution that ever happenedwas the first century ad, which
was the early church, basicallymonogamizing sex, which is the

(28:45):
only cultural phenomenon therewhere that has ever happened,
where women are elevated to aplace of societal standing where
they do not have to be put upwith put up with being sex
slaves or whatever.
That, by the way, that sexualrevolution is reversed the 1960s
and with the advent of reliablecontraception, but also with
this idea of free love and havesex like a man.
That was the 60s and 70s, whichmen hadn't been having sex like

(29:08):
men for at least a millennia.
So there's this reallyinteresting dynamic there,
because what it meant was isthat men stayed in families.
So instead of the greatestphenomenon Tom Holland talks a
lot about this, actually, butthe greatest phenomenon in the
Christian history is that women,the men, were convinced to stay

(29:29):
in their family.
They don't get pregnant.
They have to carry a baby.
They don't get birthed to ababy.
They don't have to feed thebaby.
The mother is absolutelypivotal for that baby's
generation and health.
Right, men have nothing.
They need to have nothing to dowith a baby.
Now we know that's negative.
I'm not saying we shouldn't,but I'm saying there's no, it's
pragmatic yeah, exactly.

(29:49):
There's no physical binding ofme saying because I could walk
out and go oh, suck it, I'm done, but jess couldn't do that,
she's still breastfeeding.
So actually like there'ssomething really powerful there
to acknowledge that men stayingin the family home is a
god-given design.
So family man, woman, kids is ais a god design.
And actually not only is it agood design, it is the greatest

(30:12):
transformation of westernculture that has ever happened
in in history of any culture, Ithink that's happened in history
and so when you lose the familyorientation of church, we get a
problem.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
Sorry, karen yeah, and I think that you, just like
I, was holding on to that threadfrom way back, because we do
this thing where we'll follow,then rabbit trail, then rabbit
trail.
So I was holding on to a thread, but that's what you said way
back in the beginning about theindividual, the hyper fixation
on the individual and how onboth sides.
So it's like it's it's a totalfall of like hey, we want to

(30:44):
liberate you and like there'sall these memes about it, like
women, like don't stay home andmake babies and be a slave to
that guy, go and work for someguy who you don't have a real
relationship with and he'll giveyou a salary, but you have to,
like make enough money to pay togo to work.
You know the whole deal.

(31:05):
You have to put your kids into24-hour junk child care where a
19 year old raises your daughter.
Yeah, give me.
Give me 1500 a month and I'llwipe your kid's nose, maybe, and
send them home with the flu.
You can only use me for halfthe month that is that is I'll
take full pay, yeah, dude, but.
But the hyper fixation on theindividual and the end of like
this is a very Western kind oflike thing, of like their place

(31:28):
in the family, and so when youstart pulling those fabrics
apart and like the roles theypulled apart, then you see a

(31:50):
disintegration of everyinstitution that they're a part
of.
And I have to like believe thatit's just like you don't have
to have a brain between yourears, like everybody knows this,
that we're all being engineered, that we're all being
influenced by something.
So for some people it's theIlluminati, some people it's
like snake people, some peopleit's aliens and some people it's

(32:10):
like, hey, there are spiritualforces at work that are working
in these different institutionsfor the good and the bad.
And so we're aware that.
Okay, you just make anobservation Was this good or was
this bad or was it a benefit?
Was it a net benefit, a netpositive, or what is this
producing?
And I think that feeding intothe idea that freedom looks like

(32:38):
, and then you kind of went intolike even with church, of like
it's feeding into like justwhat's feeling good for me in
the moment, or what validates mein the moment, and you said
this in the very beginning, like, yeah, I have the freedom to
make my own thoughts and my ownideas and whatever it's.
Like, yeah, but it's you'restupid, because every single
idea that you've had, there'sbeen somebody in the collective

(33:00):
of the human history who's hadthat idea.
They had the same problem thatyou had.
And there's people who didn'tfigure it out, but there's
people who have figured it outand so, and then there's people
who thought, anyways, that therehas to become some kind of
acceptance or orientation to mylife.
Didn't start with me.
Like you have to accept that.
So it's my parents, okay, butwho created them?

(33:21):
Who created?
So you follow the bouncing ballof karaoke all the way back to
there's a creator of everythingthat exists, and so, therefore,
everything is a gift.
And if everything's a gift,then I'm just being given
something that I'm going to beable to steward, but I can't
take full, complete ownershipover something that's gifted to
me, because I wasn't able tomanufacture it myself.
And so, when we talk aboutpeople, just to finish the

(33:44):
thought, yeah, there's noentitlement to my own life, to
my own the status of my health,to the status of my finances and
, by default, the children thatI'm responsible for.
So in the English languageyou'd say my wife, my children,
my mom, my dad.
That denotes ownership,depending on how you think about
it.
But I just have responsibilityto those people and if, god

(34:07):
forbid, something happens towhoever or myself, where I get a
chronic disease or somethinghappens, I could be pissed off
and butthurt about it, andrightfully so, like I'm going to
be upset because I don't havethe same quality of life or
access to somebody who I hadbefore.
But I was gifted that, so I canalso say well, I'm thankful for
the amount of time that I hadhere with, with, with this and

(34:28):
so.
But people feel there's thisweird thing and this feeds into
the consumerism thing that every, in every single year,
everything should improve, thatthat everything in life should
just be like this.
Companies think like this I'veworked in sales before and it's
like well, tim, we know that youworked an 80 hour weekend,
you've just shattered everycompany record that we've ever
had before and now we just havethis massive growth for next

(34:52):
quarter.
We expect you to double that.
Here's a pizza for yourtroubles.
It's like a weird thing andlike people expect that the new
iPhone has to have this and newthat has this and they expect
that for own life.
And life doesn't look like that.
Life is like twists and turnsand sometimes you have to hold
on for dear life, sometimes youhave to let go for dear life and
in a grain in this like brandedchristianity thing is somehow

(35:16):
like hey, let me be your guru,let me be your self-help coach,
let me take away your badfeelings and give you good
feelings.
Let me help you transcendyourself financially.
Let's get rid of the sicknessthat's in you.
And like.
We've seen people get healed.
We've seen miracles.
But I've also seen people whohave chronic diseases where they
literally want to commitsuicide every day sometimes and

(35:39):
it's like it's an ongoingdialogue with God.
But then they just accept thisis my ministry to the Lord, is
living in this.
That is not attractive.
That is not something that youcan market and package to the
masses.
I had a podcast with the guy whomentored me and he was just on
the phone all the time.

(35:59):
This lady named Ginger.
He's like I don't know what tosay.
This lady suffered withscoliosis and autoimmune
diseases and she call him.
She's like I had anotherargument with god jim.
He's like.
Who won ginger he did.
He's good, but he was like in t.
Every time he talks about he'stotally about three times.
It left such a mark on him thatthe just gratitude and

(36:22):
thanksgiving this woman had inthe midst of absolute suffering
if you have chronic pain in yourbody, if anybody listened to
this you would understand whatI'm saying about and for her
just to have have gratitude.
And so I think that in the midstof the this like okay,
commoditization of of church,and like elitism rises up and
like the same thing with salesof, like productivity and

(36:44):
numbers and all that stuff,what's left behind is family.
What's also left behind isthere is no space for God in the
failure.
There's no space for God in thelack of finances.
There's no space for God in thepain.
If it's, if it's not solved, ifwe can't like fix it, it's like
there's some, there's a measureof people.
There's just, it's just aninevitability.
There's going to be people whoare going to be broken and walk

(37:07):
with a limp and restorationdoesn't look like the limp being
taken away.
Restoration looks like whathappens actually to the inner
man, not the emotions, the innerman like the whole man.
And so you look at somebody likeJacob, or you look at somebody
like Mephibosheth.
Mephibosheth just dropped downthe stairs and he's just a

(37:28):
cripple his whole life and hehas a place at the king's table
because of who his dad is, buthe's still a cripple.
Jacob wrestled with God.
I'm going off on a tangent, butone of the greatest stories in
the Bible is like everybody elsehas a divine experience.
They see an angel, they seesomething like, something like
oh my god, please don't kill me.
The angel has to say don't beafraid.
This dude says hold my beer,I'm gonna wrestle that thing and

(37:50):
hold on until it gives mesomething.
But he's crippled the rest ofhis life as a result of he walks
.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
He walks differently there and I I think like that is
the foundational narrative ofthe, of the sacrifice of the
moment for the, for the, thefuture.
Jacob wrestling with God is anexact symbolic representation of
the idea that you sacrificeyour immediate comfort in order
to receive the blessing for yourfuture family.
So this is such a foundationalnarrative of the biblical text.

(38:18):
It's like the nature ofcovenant is not a bargain.
It's not when you say I'll giveyou this and you give me this,
which is the prosperity gospelat its core.
What covenant is is a familialcovenant that says I am willing
to sacrifice the immediatemoment, my money, my time, the
immediacy of my comfort, inorder that I can provide for my
family in the future.
And so I think if you go backto family, and if we go back to

(38:41):
the lady ginger you're talkingabout, you go back to god.
You can't commoditize any ofthose people.
So what you do is you love themand you pray for them, and
that's absolutely amazing.
But you can't commoditizefamily, because family is
incredibly complex.
You can't just say, hey, youguys serve on this team.
You know like it doesn't worklike that.
You also can't commoditize god.
You can't put him in a box, andso what often happens in

(39:02):
western churches is.
That is, that we say to God hey, god, you do whatever you want
in the context of what we'redoing, and in that context we're
like it's really good,sometimes it's amazing, but what
we're saying to God is we'resaying, hey, you can do whatever
you want, as long as it fits inthe context of our branding,
which is what we're going after,which is what you've told us to

(39:23):
go, which is what you've toldus to go after God.
So, because you've told us togo after this, then we're going
after this, so you can come anddo what you've told us to do.
But outside of that, actually,it would really help us if you
weren't quite God in that moment, because we can do this pretty
well and no matter how much wehave these conversations about
what's God saying, what's theLord saying, whatever
conversations about what's Godsaying, what's the Lord saying,

(39:43):
whatever else it is, I knowhardly any prophets in churches
because we're not good at family.
So, basically, in the largerchurches that I've been involved
in and also know about theperson that hears from God.
Now I want to say something.
I don't think Bethel does thisand I've got a lot of time for

(40:05):
Bethel around how they run thefive-fold ministry.
But but a lot of the churcheswe be involved in, the person
that hears from God is a seniorpastor, but what that is is a
ceo.
So if, if the senior pastorspeaks to God sorry, because the
gospel seeks the senior pastorwho is essentially running the
organization there's no actualprophetic input apart from the
thing that the senior pastorfeels the thing is to go after.

(40:25):
And so what happens is is thatyou have all these prophetic
alliances that pop up all overthe show outside of church,
because senior pastors don'treally want the family aspect of
the fivefold ministry.
They don't really want thatbecause what they want to do is
they want to do what they thinkgod has called them to do.
And what's really interestingis is that the senior pastor
will create in my experience,will create the church around

(40:48):
his call or her call, not aroundwhat god is saying about the
church.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
And so the church becomes synonymous with the call
of the pastor as opposed tosynonymous with the five-fold
gifting, which is actually theequivalent of family in the
context of leadership yeah, well, it has to be like that in some
ways because, like you havesomebody in a possible position
where, again, like you'retalking about, we need you to be
, have the organization,administrative skills of like a

(41:14):
ceo.
We need you to be a verycharismatic speaker.
We need you to be on the levelof a professional, like
counselor.
We need you also to be an eventorganizer.
We need you also to be andthese things are being stacked
on each other, not shiftedstacked on top of each other and
so, by default, if I'm more ofa teacher, then that's what I'm
gonna do.

(41:34):
I'm gonna teach you.
I'm gonna like truth more thanpeople and I'm gonna hyper
fixate on having the righttheology, having the right
doctrine.
If I'm an evangelist, I'm goingto use every single opportunity
and event, everything that I'mgoing to preach the gospel.
I'm going to activate people togo out and preach the gospel
and like that's what I'm goingto do.
If I'm a pastor, then I'm goingto be hyper fixated on how can
I make Tim comfortable, how canI make sure families are whole,

(41:56):
how can I make sure people arenot divorces, but also I, I
don't want to step on anybody'stoes, so when you throw, like
somebody who's prophetic, inthere.
It's like we're going to gothis direction.
Maybe it's that.
Uh, it would not be like thisthing of growth that you're
talking about.
It could be multiplication, butnot growth of the entity.
So the growth themultiplication might be, it
might be chopping it up intopieces and then throwing it in

(42:19):
other places, per se.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
And it could be the same thing that had the jesus
where he said eat my body anddrink my blood, and then
everyone leaves apart from the12.
It's like god, jesus had thismost amazing following and he's
like screw that.
Um, I don't, I'm gonna tell youwhat you actually have to do to
inherit its own life.
And everyone walks apart fromthe people who've got nothing
else to go back to.
And I'm like there is something, and so one of the one of the
really interesting things for meabout how we do church in the

(42:46):
West, if we go back to thehyperfixation on the individual,
what's interesting is thatthere is a desire, there is a
desire in all of humanity to bepart and belong to something
right.
We know that that's reallyobvious.
But with the hyperfixation ofthe individualismism,
particularly on the basis ofright-wing politics, we see the

(43:08):
left goes super hardcore towardsgroupthink and towards being
grouped into a group identity,which actually is actually a
response to the hyper individualin my view, the hyper
individualized nature of what itis to be an individual with the
context of the western culture.
But if you take that intochurch, for example, what
happens is is that the pastor ofthe church has in his mind what

(43:31):
success is.
And what happens is is thatsometimes the success measures
have to change depending on theseason that you're in.
But, for example, if yoursuccess measure is growth and
numerical value, then whatyou'll prioritize will be what
brings numerical value.
Families never grow quicklybecause there's a nine-month

(43:52):
gestation period of each child.
Then you have to have at leasttwo years before you have
another one, because you're soscrewed up in your brain from
that kid keeping up at night andall the rest of it.
And what happens is, if youprioritize family in church,
growth goes so, so slowly andfor a ceo type pastor and for
the person that has growth andmega church in their mind, like

(44:15):
the bigger the church is, themore successful it is, family
cannot function as part of theleadership model and it cannot
function as part of the coreculture because it is too slow.
And that is the exactrepresentation of the
industrialization model of thewestern world in the last 150,
200 years.

(44:36):
Because what we're saying is weare saying above and beyond
family and what success lookslike in family, which, by the
way, is the primary call of thechurch, primary call of the
church.
So what we're going to do is isthat we are going to model our
church on the basis of somethingthat is anti-family and then it
becomes something that looksfar more like a business,

(44:57):
producing something that peoplewillingly give their time and
money to, as opposed to want tojoin, because there's community
involved and I think that that'sa really interesting place to
be in the Western society,western church that we have, and
I don't think there's longevityin it, because I think that
there are more and more and morepeople who are like man.
This 20 years of me emotionallyencountering God it didn't

(45:21):
change my life, but what changedmy life is that 75 year old
gray hair man that for two yearsbasically told me to sort my
life out and I did and now I'mbetter and there's this really
interesting narrative aroundthat yeah, well it's.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
It's a fairly new like phenomenon, like like the
kind of mega, mega church thingis like really like since the
60s, maybe 70s maybe, of likethat kind of model, and
sometimes you need a generationto figure out stupid ideas.
I mean, when israel was likemoving out, they had to, like
they had to let an entiregeneration of people die in that
adaptation phase of the desertbefore they could move on to
more promises of god.

(45:56):
So I think that maybe, maybethat's it.
I see, like what I see peoplemost desperate for now in our
age bracket is community, likethat's it.
I see, like what I see peoplemost desperate for now in our
age bracket is community.
Like that's the thing thatthey're most desperate for
because and you know they're,maybe they're a lot of people
have left where they're from.
A lot of some people like stilllive in the same place, but a
lot of people have uprooted togo for jobs or university.

(46:18):
Then they up meeting somebodythere and staying there, and so
someone has compromised of likeI've left my mother and father,
I've left my mother and father,so now we're here in this other
place, and so that's.
That's partially what the churchfacilitates in a practical way
and in a spiritual way is thatin James.
James, he's like take care of,like widows and orphans, and so
it's like be.
How do you take care of a widowor orphan?

(46:39):
Will you be kids to her or yoube, in essence, a?
Will you be kids to her or yoube, in essence, a husband to her
, a spouse to her, in the senseof helping meet needs?
You know, emotionally,physically or not physically,
but you know what I mean, likefood, food, food and water.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
I don't know what you're talking about Okay,
Seriously talking about water.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
Yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (46:59):
I'm not taking care of that Windows needs physically
.
I take care of that Windowsneeds physically so so getting
big in that cause.
We've we.
This is one of the things thatI, I, uh, you know I completely
threw you my man, you're good,you're good.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
I don't want to go off on like a rabbit trail about
this.
I think I brought this up toyou before, but my observation
is in Europe, because of thesecond world war, people, people
are very skeptical of otherpeople outside their circle and
if people act too friendly, orit's viewed as invasive, it's
viewed as like you're trying tosolicit me something or whatever

(47:35):
.
And so my observation is likebeing in the church, it's like
we're going to meet at thechurch and this is where it
starts and stops with us.
We have our blood family, we'regood.
And in America I see people whoare orphans, kind of yearning
for family in a sense, andthey're open to that.
And people who have small kidsare in our age group and kind of

(47:57):
stage of life.
But you have people who are ourparents' age, who are like, hey
, we're retired and we want toenjoy our retirement, we want to
like, bounce around, we want todo, do whatever, um, and then
people who are young adults, whodon't have those
responsibilities yet, are nowlike I don't know what the hell
kids are doing now, like I mean,in the same year, this is, it's

(48:17):
gonna I don't go off around,but last year, 2024 more
middle-class people visited foodbanks in America historically
than ever before, but moreAmericans took holidays to
Europe than ever before in thesame year.
Those two statistics werehappening together and so there
is a disconnect of like.
To your point of like, thingsare being commoditized and

(48:38):
wealth is being distributed andthings are being built, stuff is
happening, but then there'speople who are like falling
below the get, and when they thefood banks, what they reported
was these are not people who aregenerationally impoverished.
These are people who said weliterally just can't like
there's an extra 50 we need atthe grocery store, so we're
supplementing from the food bank.
Like we're going by grocerystill, but we're supplementing.

(48:59):
So whose job is?
Is that?
Who are your people Like?
Whatever?
And so it's this weird thing,to your point, we've hyper
fixated on what we can packagein this institution, this brand.
Well, I can create digitalproducts, music, things like
that, package them, sell them,but, like you know not to shoot

(49:20):
ourselves in the foot, we'resitting here doing a podcast.
Could I be like?
going and visiting somebody inmy church could I be?
Could I be?
Uh, we're part of the problem,tim um, but yeah, yeah, but it's
like I guess, like in the sameway there's a conversation
that's being, that's happeningnow, what comes after free trade

(49:41):
or capitalism?
Like it's a seriousconversation among economists,
like what's next?
I guess that would be like thereal question.
I know our Catholic andOrthodox brothers are going to
say we already have the answerfor you.
You guys went astray, come back.
But I mean realistically, likein terms of like you know, kind
of free churches or Protestantchurches, like we kind of walked

(50:02):
through like some stages.
What do you perceive is comingaround the the bend?

Speaker 2 (50:07):
yeah, I mean, I don't know.
I think for me, for me, I thinkthere'll be more than more.
Francis chan did this, didn't?
He had a massive church.
That was like this is stupid,like what are we doing?
Like let's split this down.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
He said it was stupid .
They didn't, they were sad.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
Yeah, they were really sad.
Yeah, because because theyloved it, because they get
emotional, physical what we'redoing.
Let's split this down.
He said it was stupid.
They didn't.
They were sad Because theyloved it, because they got
emotional, physical, whateverneeds better.
One of the things about ChurchGrief is that it's generally
among Generation Z, someGeneration Alpha, but sorry,
generation Z.
Generation Z, like you said,what they want most is community

(50:44):
.
Now, now, what's reallyinteresting with that for me is
that they have a false sense ofcommunity from their digital
footprint, from their avataronline and so so.
So what we're gonna have to dois is the church we're gonna
have to unplug, I think.
I think we're gonna have tounplug from the digital world
and begin to do analogrelationships again.
That's what I think we have todo.

(51:05):
So so, instead of it being, cometo my church, come to this
central hub, big churches.
We don't do anything out.
Everyone comes to us.
It turns into we actually endup going into homes and houses
and having meals together,eating.
Do you know how?
I joined?
So I had a friend and um, hesaid we, we, we go to big church

(51:29):
.
We don't have any community.
We are going to do once a monthum community where we're going
to go through a john mark comerpodcast and um.
We're going to eat together andhave all the kids in the same
room at the same time and see ifwe can do family like that.
So once a month we, jess and Iand our three kids and like
another eight kids and threeother couples, meet together to
do intentional community outsideof church, because in church we

(51:52):
can't find community outside ofteam.
So what's really interesting inthe church at the moment is
that the way you find yourcommunity is on a team and the
main teams production, media,worship, all of of that kid
stuff, all that stuff.
And what happens is is that theyoung tend to gravitate towards
anything with a camera ordigital device and because they

(52:14):
have all the time in the world,they spend all their time
together in the church.
But for anybody with children,they don't have much community
and it's very hard to buildcommunity in church because of
the nature of how we run church.
You walk in, your kids gosomewhere else and you walk in
you worship.
If your kid needs a nappychange, you get buzzed and you

(52:35):
go out of worship, or they cryyou've got to go out of worship
and then you hear a talk for 25minutes that's very low level,
not in-depth at all, because youwant Not yours, michael, no,
nor mine, nor mine.
I'm saying we're like we havethis, like we've got to make
sure non-Christians understandit, and so you walk out as an

(52:57):
experienced believer, absolutelypumped that people gave their
life to Jesus, but absolutelyundiscipled, right.
And so then you're like, okay,so how do I get discipled?
So you create your own thing,and that is where we're going.
We're going to communities beingbuilt by individuals or family
groups with other families, withother people in probably a

(53:19):
similar life stage, and buildingthose things within the context
of larger churches.
I think larger churches willstay.
I don't think they're going tobe all Francis Chans and go into
like 50 people groups invarious different aspects of the
city, but I think that.
So I think that large churchesare going to stay, but I think
there will be a fragmentation ofwhere people find their

(53:40):
community into smaller groups,because I don't think you can do
it in a big church.
It's absolutely impossible.
Because the because, because theplan for big churches to do big
family is to have more teams,to have more people commoditized
, to come into the churchcentrally and to do things for
more people at once.
So, for example, instead ofdoing now for us, instead of

(54:03):
doing marriage prep one-to-one,what we're doing is we're doing
marriage prep for eight or ninedifferent couples in the
building at one time and I'mlike okay, cool, but that's
called big church mindset,that's what it's called right,
and I'm like all right, but whatif that's not a good thing?
What if nine couples in a roomdoesn't work?
And because they don't knoweach other, they won't be as

(54:24):
open, they won't be as honest,they won't actually work through
the things that they need towork through in order to have a
healthy marriage.
Like what, at what point doesthat big church mindset actually
begin minimizing the individualperson who's actually going to
walk into a marriage andactually not have any idea about
, like probably needs to not be,need to share a bank account or
whatever, and I think likethere's bits where people are

(54:46):
going to turn around and go.
Actually I don't think that'strue or real, but so they'll end
up going to church on a Sundaybecause they love the idea of
salvation.
They want to invest in thatidea.
They want to invest the ideathat the church is for everybody
and the church is growing andthey love the product, they love
the worship, they get anamazing sense of God's presence

(55:06):
and community or whatever in theworship community with God in
the worship.
But community will lack unlessyou are under 25 and not married
community.
You will not have a communitymet in that context.
Now, what's really interestingis is that the other option you
have is going to a church withthe most awful singing, the most

(55:27):
, like cat squealing vocals andlike the guy that played the
piano literally can't play itand you sacrifice that part of
it for the family, because thosechurches will have family,
community orientation.
They will do loads of stuffafter the meeting.
They will do loads of stuffduring the week.
They'll have one service on asunday, not six, seven million,

(55:47):
you know.
And so what will happen is isthat you end up sacrificing
something.
But for churches like ours, whatI what will happen is that you
end up sacrificing something.
But for churches like ours,what I think will happen is that
people will continue with themodel of the church.
They'll be above in a seat,they'll be the 10% in the
offering, they'll keep thechurch going, but they won't
find community there, becausethe only way you can find
community if you're busy is ifyou do it intentionally.
The only way that you can findcommunity in the church big

(56:09):
churches is by being busy in thechurch, and if the church big
churches is by being busy in thechurch.
And if you've got a family anda full-time job you can't do
that.
So actually you have to end uptrying to make yourself a
community, and I think that'swhere we're going to go yeah it.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
It's interesting because me and you, like the
church that you're a part of, ismore on on the.
It's quite bigger church, likeit's at 1200 people coming, and
my church is a bit smaller, it'sonly about.
I think maybe you have like 60,70 ish people there on a sunday
, maybe 120 total and while wedon't have the cat scratching
like vocals like you describe,but it is like more of a

(56:44):
communal, communal focus.
But I think, like the, thething that I'm realizing as I
get older, just how much I valuelike friends, because as I've
gotten older, like just more andmore and more people die in my
life and you realize thatmortality is a real thing, and
so when you find a good friend,just the value level of it goes
up way higher.

(57:04):
Not that I didn't value peoplebefore, it's just my awareness
of the worth of it.
And then also, somehow I wantmy kids to experience people,
not in the same way that Iexperienced them, but like being
around the guy who mentored meand like letting my kid, like
watching him and his wife, likeinteract with my kids and so on,
but I think like theintegration of each other's life

(57:27):
to do it together.
I can't overstate the valuethat I feel and see for that,
and I feel like people makeevery excuse in the world not to
pursue it, and it's like that'sprobably one of the most
disheartening things for me,like it's really painful for me
if I, like my wife, loves tohost people.
Hospitality is her, her gift,and she's so fantastic at it,
and so we just try to think ofthe lowest lift way of like.

(57:51):
Everybody has to eat dinner.
Let's just have people over fordinner or lunch, and so you're
just always doing this tightropewalk of like yeah, but my kid
takes a nap at this time, and mykid and we were always like
kind of loose with that of like,if our kids gonna take a nap,
we just throw them in thestroller so that we can go
wherever.
But everyone has these reallylike crazy specific routines,
and I was around this sw.

(58:12):
They they were missionaries andthey had four kids and the kids
the age of the kids was quitespread out.
I mean, they had a kid in hislike mid twenties and they had
like a kid that wasn't even 10,uh yet, and I was like how,
how's this work with your kids,cause you guys have lived in
like several different countries.
He's like well, what we foundis this whole illusion that kids
have to have this very specificroutine.

(58:33):
That does create structure, itcreates repetition.
But you can create thatstructure by.
The structure is we're a familyand wherever we're going, we're
doing stuff together.
And so in the commoditizationagain, just keep banging on that
drum.
It's like factory.
Everything is structuredtowards the commoditization,
even education.
Sit here for eight hours, bequiet, absorb information,

(58:55):
regurgitate it back.
That's not learning, that'smemorization, it's not learning,
it's not wisdom.
And then so we see, like this,building towards that.
In reality, relationships superinconvenient, they're sacrifice.
Sometimes these people suck andyou still have to make the
choice of being around them.
Sometimes they sing horribly.
I have no offense to whoeverhears this.

(59:19):
I have a recording of mywedding and one of the guys in
my revival group who wasstanding.
He was by the camera and so allyou hear is him singing the
whole time and it's awful.
It's awful.
You can't even like the worshipwas awesome, but it was awful.
But that's family.
Not that you have to give thatguy the mic, but it's just so
happy.
He's by camera, but but so thatthat's the one thing.

(59:40):
Anybody takes anything away fromthis episode is is that man,
like if people are inviting youinto their home, if they're
trying to make space for you andmake time, you have to try to
make that work.
You have to sacrifice for thatand do it and like be realistic.
But it's like if I'm, if I havethe option to like be around
you and Jess and have my kidslike like be exposed to you and

(01:00:03):
and and like your wisdom andyour love and your energy and
your focus and your questions,like you're going to do things I
would never do.
You're going to say things Iwould never say, and so that
just like slingshots theirprogression.
It also like cements in, likecore value.
It's just so invaluable to havethat and to prioritize that and
then also just to enjoy eachother.

(01:00:24):
We're freaking going to live.
We live forever.
We're internal beings.
We're what, you know, thisthing is kind of about, and so
we were gifted to each other.
We're what this thing is kindof about, and so we were gifted
to each other.
Christ was gifted to us Likethe Father gifts Christ to the
Holy Spirit, the Holy Spiritgifts Christ to the Father, and
so on, and we're part of thatand we're gifted to each other,

(01:00:44):
we're supposed to be reconciledto each other, and we're so damn
busy trying to make more money,trying to coach sports, trying
to do that, that, which is notbad things.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
But it's just about prioritization and I feel like,
because, because actually thosethings are created by human
beings as a cultic expression ofthe divine.
So so where, wherever humanbeings create culture, there is
a divine spark there somewhere,wherever you are, whatever you
do, there is a divine sparkthere.
The issue is is it orientatedtowards the correct structure of

(01:01:18):
prioritization or is itorientated towards selfishness?
Is it orientated towardsmanhood?
Is it orientated towardscontrolling your children, even
in terms of they have to havethe 15-minute nap at 1.23 and 42
and 42 seconds, like?
Where is it orientated to?
Because actually, if we canorientate individualism to the

(01:01:40):
community, then what you have isyou have family.
So every family is made up ofin an individual and every
family is made up of anindividual that thinks
individually.
But they sacrifice theirability or their freedom to
speak their mind over and overagain on the basis that they are
part of a structure of a familywhere they prefer the other,

(01:02:05):
and the example of that isobviously marriage.
But one of the foundationalthings for me is that we say you
and I.
We would say you know what,like if, if one of us really
needed each other, we'd probablyget on a plane and come and see
each other.
Like we live.
I don't know like how manyhours away from each other, how
many miles away from each other,but actually like there's,
there's.
If you said, hey, I need you,then I'd be like, hey, babe,

(01:02:28):
I've got a go.
Or is it just me?

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
I thought you're were going to say hey, babe, I'll be
there, Sorry, hey babe, hey,babe, I'll be there, I'll be
there in a minute.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
But actually there's this, really there's just this
really interesting dynamic offriendship, because actually
true friendship is family,because true friendship is me
saying to you hey, you know,like when you treat your kid
like that, it really impacts mykid like that and because we
spend so much time together, canyou please not do that?
Because and what family does?
It grows health, because itgrows communication.
But if you don't have family,you never learn how to

(01:03:01):
communicate, you never learn howto talk, you never learn how to
adopt or absorb someone else'spoint of view and even if you
disagree with that, disagreewith it.
Well, I mean, all of my lessongrowing up was how not to be a
twat.
That was my family lesson,because basically it was like I,
I just I annoy people.
For 25 years of my life Ireally, really annoyed people
and I was like, why don't, whyam I so annoying to people?

(01:03:23):
And then I realized that thecommon denominator is the fact
that I just say what I think allthe time and I mean, to an
extent that's, that's a, thatgift, but to an extent it's a
major deterioration ofrelationship if I can't shut my
mouth.
And so actually, we have to beaware of that, and you don't
ever learn that in a business orin a structure like a church
that is structured on a business, because what you learn about

(01:03:46):
that is that if you are higherup, you get to say what you want
.
In fact, if you're higher up inthat business or organization,
it's made for you and designedaround you in order that you can
actually speak about what youwant.
So, for example, um, you cansay what you want and say you
know, I was just having a badday, it is what it is.
Or you can say what, what youwant in a business or business

(01:04:08):
organization and you and youcould be like well, you know,
like, this is my business, I ranit like, like it or lump it,
and that's actually true, butthat's not the church.
The church is slow, painful,iron sharpens, iron,
relationships that grow, health,not numbers, necessarily,
although hopefully at some pointnumbers will grow.
And so I think, like for me, we, we need to address that as

(01:04:32):
part of what our successmeasures are in the Western
church.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
It's good, dude.
It's a good place to stop.
I have a meeting coming up, andso I think we'll pick up there,
because we went deep in theweeds.
We have a lot of stuff tounpack, but love you, buddy.
Thanks so much for sharing.
Sorry to stop the flow.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
I'll say hi to the phone.
I'll say hi to the phone.
I'll say hi to Mark.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Love you, buddy well, that's all, folks.
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
Rebuilding community and takingresponsibility of living a life
rooted in truth.
That doesn't happen by accident.
It demands vigilance, itdemands courage and it demands
taking responsibility, living alife rooted in truth.
That doesn't happen by accident.
It demands vigilance, itdemands courage and it demands

(01:05:16):
that we all play our little part, no matter how small that might
be.
And if there's one thing we needto remember, it's this that
life was not meant to be livedalone.
Meaning is not found inself-indulgence, but in service
to God and to others, tosomething beyond ourself.
And if you look at the creationstory, there's a series of
benedictions where God createslight and he creates the heavens

(01:05:39):
and the earth and the animalsand he separates them and he
said it was good, and he said itwas good, and he said it was
good.
And then, after all thesebenedictions, comes a curse and
he says and God created man andsaid it is not good for man to
be alone.
It is not good for man to bealone.
So if this conversationchallenged you and encouraged

(01:06:01):
you or made you think moreseriously about your own space
in the world, share it.
Share it with someone who youthink might need to hear it and
leave a review.
Who you think might need tohear it and leave a review?
For me, it's not about growingnumbers, but, in a marketing
background, I understand thatthe algorithm is getting fed
information, and algorithms arewhat drive these platforms, and

(01:06:23):
they need to be trained and soto show some meaningful content
to people who actually need itand are actually going to engage
with it.
That is done through you likingand sharing it, so leave a
review and share it.
Put a rating on it.
It helps plant seeds that willtake root and get in front of
other people.
Thank you for listening with ustoday.

(01:06:46):
Carry the weight and buildsomething worthy of the gift
you've been given.
Until next time, toodaloo.