August 30, 2025 • 31 mins
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After 27 years of marriage, we have learned that fighting is not only inevitable but it’s actually an important part of a healthy relationship. The key isn’t trying to avoid disagreements altogether, but learning how to navigate them in ways that bring us closer instead of tearing us apart.
In this episode, we open up about our journey of learning to fight fair, the mistakes we’ve made along the way, and the powerful shifts that turned our conflicts from destructive battles into opportunities for deeper connection.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Married and Naked Podcast.
I'm Tammy, founder of the blogMarried and Naked, certified
sexuality coach and speaker.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Joel, tv host , motivational speaker and the
guinea pig to the lessons you'reabout to learn.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
We're high school sweethearts, married over two
decades, and we're on a missionto help you create the marriage
you desire and deserve.
Let's get naked.
Welcome to the Married andNaked podcast.
Hi everybody, I'm happy to behere with you.
How are you, sweetie?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I am good, I'm happy to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Thank you.
You just got me some chocolatebecause my brain is feeling slow
and sluggish.
I really needed a pick-me-up,so thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I really wish we can showeverything that happens before
we hit record on the podcast.
There's a lot going on.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Mostly me complaining .
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I mean, I wasn't going to say that I wasn't going
to call you out, but one of thecomplaints was very justified.
We record this in our extrabedroom and we had two flies
come in this room and we'rebouncing off the window in the
mirror back and forth for about20 minutes.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yeah, that is such an annoying sound, it is so bad.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
We got rid of it and then my son came in to help us
with the technical stuff and helet it back in.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yeah, our son's been setting up our podcast for us.
I'm tired with the technicalstuff and he's good at it.
He's incredible at it he reallyis.
It's really nice.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
It is, it is.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
And he does it for free.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
So far, so far.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
For now.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I was thinking about today, like the season we're in.
He starts his senior year ofhigh school in two days which is
crazy.
And then, a week from that, wecelebrate our 27-year
anniversary Crazy.
And tomorrow I'm literallygetting specific about all the
(01:57):
days we're actually going to doa walkthrough to his potential
college for next year.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah, wow, not sure I'm going to survive all this
change.
That's college for next year.
Yeah, wow, not sure I'm goingto survive all this change.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
There's a lot of change.
Yeah, our daughter's moving outsoon, so this is wow.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
It's just going to be you and I here soon.
It's going to be you and I.
What on earth are we going todo?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
We'll actually be married and naked.
There you go, sorry.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I just want to make sure I work it in there somehow.
What do you think we'll do?
What is your thought?
We're still a ways away, by theway.
I'm very focused on myself andhow much.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I'm going to miss them yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
That's where I'm at.
I'm sure we'll get to theMarried and Naked stuff.
Before that I got to getthrough the sadness stuff.
I think everybody handles itdifferently but I've had a lot
of people I've talked to thathave, that are having the time
of their lives.
You know others that are havinga real hard adjustment or I
think, more likely, you kind ofhave a hard adjustment and then
(02:54):
hopefully evolve into justenjoying that time in your life,
which is what I'm hoping for.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
We waited several years to have our first kid,
which was cool.
We got to be without kids, wegot to travel, we got to do a
lot of cool things, and then,obviously, you parents out there
know that kids changeeverything and for the next it's
been what 23 years for us Like.
Now you're starting to think,oh wow, we're going to go back
(03:20):
to what we were before.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Question mark question mark.
You know I think it'simpossible to go back to what
you were before.
Question mark question mark.
You know I think it'simpossible to go back to what
you were before.
We've changed as human beings,but I hope that we get to look
forward to, you know, a new timewe've never had before Freedom
that comes with being older andmore financially secure.
Before our daughter's financialinsecurity and I don't feel
(03:45):
like it was a time of likefreedom.
Let's go travel and all that.
We didn't have the money to dothat kind of stuff.
Yeah, the travel we did, we didit on a very, very tight budget
and now my hope is that we doget to travel a lot and really
explore the world without timeconstraints.
That'll be interesting to notbe running our life around a
(04:09):
school schedule.
But it also makes me sad, youknow.
I look at all the people buyingschool supplies for their kids
and our son has never beeninterested in shopping for
clothes or school supplies.
He could really care less.
He's had the same backpack forthree years.
He does not want a new one.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I have to beg him to get him a new pair of shoes.
Yeah, it's just Once a year.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
It's just not his thing, yeah.
So once my daughter graduated,I didn't get to do that anymore.
I'm not going to get to do thatanymore.
So that makes me sad looking atpeople going shoe shopping or
school shopping.
So it's a weird adjustmentalready and our kids are still
at home, but I can't evenimagine when they're gone.
But I do look forward to havinga sense of freedom that we
(04:54):
don't have now.
I definitely do.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Having your last kid enter their last year of high
school is pretty-.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
It's our last year of high school too, that's true.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Wow, that's so true.
Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, so we're switching gears here.
Let's get down to what we weregoing to talk about today, and
what I thought we would talkabout today is three ways that
we keep the fighting fair.
You know, fighting in arelationship is a really big
issue for all of us.
We all, you know everybodyfights.
We've had times in our marriagewhere we fought almost every
(05:29):
day, you know, and other timeswhere the fighting is very
sporadic and sparse.
Through the years, we havelearned how to fight better.
I think one of the things Ilearned most in marriage is I
thought that the goal would beto learn how not to fight.
I thought that was the goal.
If we could just stop fighting,then everything would be better
(05:52):
.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
But I've learned, like that's not the goal, not
destroying your marriage Becauseback in the day with us we were
fighting so dirty, so ugly thatit was tearing our marriage
apart.
Those fights were tearing ourmarriage apart and the progress
(06:21):
we've made is well.
We made a lot that haveaffected whether or not we're
fighting, but really we havelearned how to fight so much
better than we used to.
We still fall into old habitsall the time and they can still
be kind of ugly, but I feel likeit's night and day from how we
used to be because of somecertain strategies that we do to
make our fighting more fair.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I remember early on when we were a married couple
and I don't know who they were,why they were in our lives, but
I remember this couple saying wenever fight.
They had been together for sometime and they never fought.
And I was just like, whoa, how,oh my goodness, how do you do
that?
Wow.
And then you know, as time goeson and you grow wiser and I'm
(07:04):
thinking like, is it good?
That you never fought Makessense that two human beings are
going to disagree about certainthings.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
So I thought it would be good to share some of the
things that we have, we doimplement or we do work on.
When we are in the midst offights, I always felt like
people who don't fight do Idon't know if I trust them.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
You know, someone is going to send you a message
saying hey we've never fought.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
The thing is, two people are not going to agree on
everything.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
You're just not.
And if you're not fighting,what does that mean?
Does that mean somebody is justalways giving in, yeah, or are
you just so far above everybodyelse where you just know how to
compromise on every single thing?
And I mean, I'm sure there'ssome that are out there like
that, but for the most part,fights is just a normal part of
marriage and it shouldn't bemade to think that there's
(08:00):
anything wrong with yourmarriage.
If you're fighting Now, if thefighting is tearing your
marriage apart.
There's definitely some workthat needs to be done, but we're
going to fight.
We disagree.
We grew up differently.
We fought about how to raiseour children and we fought about
everything sex and money, and Imean everything.
(08:21):
We've been through it all and Ithink that that's a very normal
thing.
I think what I would like to dois just normalize that fighting
is normal and that's okay.
It's not to be like thosepeople that say, oh, we never
fight, you know, but to be like,oh, let's learn how to fight so
we can get through thiseffectively and honestly.
I feel like the fights that wehave are really what help us
(08:44):
grow.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Honestly, I feel like the fights that we have are
really what help us grow Forsure, especially since we've
been more effective in ourarguments, like we can grow so
much from an argument now.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah, well, I think it starts with me blaming you
for everything first of all, andthen we move from there.
So you, I'm pretty sure it'sall your fault.
Yeah, I mean it's you.
No, no, let's make thisstraight.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
You are responsible for all the in let's talk about
three things that we do to helpus fight fair.
The number one thing and I I'mgoing to say this over and over,
you've heard me say it over andover but I think the number one
thing that is important to usin our arguments is being able
(09:27):
to lay down our defenses.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
It's the hardest thing too.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
It is the hardest thing.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Because when the defenses are up, literally
nothing gets accomplished.
It just will circle and circleand circle and circle.
Somebody has to be willing tolay them down, and ideally it's
both of you to be able to get tothe meat of what the discussion
or what the argument isactually about.
Because For me, my go-to hasalways been to put my walls up
(09:55):
and to immediately fight my sideand to figure out how to win.
That's what I thought.
I just got to figure out how toprove my point enough so that
you can see my side, and theneverything's better.
But until you can see my side,I'm going to keep fighting my
side, and all that did was keepus in a perpetual cycle of
(10:17):
conflict.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, you know, it's funny, cause when I think about
our fights nowadays, usuallythey start off with like oh, I
think we're being defensive, Ithink you're being defense, I
think I'm being defensive, youknow what I mean, versus arguing
, arguing, arguing and then,like then pointing out the.
I think we usually pull out thedefensive word pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Because we now know that if the defenses are up,
we're not going anywhere.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
You're not wrong.
It is like the one, the biggestthing that's definitely helped
shape our fights.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Let's talk about what defensive being defensive means
.
Like.
What does that actually looklike to me in my mind?
Instead of hearing what you'retrying to say in my mind, I'll
be like plotting a path or anargument, before I can even hear
what you're saying, because I'min my own head trying to say no
(11:08):
, he's wrong, this is what I'mgoing to say.
This is what I'm going to getready to say.
This is how I'm going to provemy point.
This is I'm going to say.
This is what I'm going to getready to say.
This is how I'm going to provemy point.
This is, I'm right.
And everything you say is justgoing to hit my wall of
defensive and bounce right backoff to you.
I don't know if that makes anysense, but nothing can get
through because I've got thiswall of uh-uh, I'm right and I'm
(11:31):
going to prove it to you, and Ican hear it now in my head, or
I can hear the words that comeout of my mouth.
I feel it in my body.
I'm feeling really tense andI'm feeling this need to like
fight and I have now gotten muchbetter at realizing okay, I've
got to calm that down, I got toshut this voice off in my head
and I got to fully tune intowhat you're saying and put all
my crap aside.
(11:52):
That's what being defensive isand what it looks like to lay it
down.
And it is incredibly difficultbecause I didn't even know I was
defensive before.
I just thought this is just howit's supposed to be and of
course I'm going to tell you howI feel.
Of course I'm going to tell youmy side.
But it came off in such a waythat didn't allow anything else
(12:13):
to come through.
And now I can really physicallyfeel it, I can hear it and I
can work really hard to shut itdown, and if I can't do it, then
I need a minute to like gatherthat within myself, to to lay it
down.
Did that make sense?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, no, it made sense.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
What about you?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
You said something in there about feeling it in your
body and I think for me, when Irecognize I'm being defensive, I
do feel it.
I feel this humming.
It's a feeling I get first, andthen I start ruminating over
the well, I'm going to bringthis, I'll make sure I get this.
So I'm not really payingattention to you just like
you're saying.
(12:57):
So yeah, I truly try to be intouch with that feeling.
I truly do it.
Like you said, it's not aperfect science.
We we fall into old habits allthe time.
But one thing I do know is wecome out of it a whole lot
quicker than we ever did before,and sometimes we don't even
fall into it.
It just you know we'll have asnap thing.
And then next thing you know,you're like oh wait, a minute,
(13:17):
I'm being defensive.
I need to chill out, okay, soand which I think I, if I'm not
mistaken, you're going to saythe second.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Tell me.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Number two is about being accountable.
So if you're not beingdefensive, if when I'm not being
okay, what am I doing here?
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Tell me what accountability means.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
So accountability for me is that I'm literally
turning, I'm looking into amirror and I'm literally saying
to myself what am I bringing tothis problem?
What am I doing to cause thisargument?
How am I causing this argumentor contributing to, Contributing
to this argument?
What am I doing?
(13:56):
Not, what are you?
The whole defensive thing.
So if you can get pastdefensiveness, calm down and
recognize either that feelingyou have or this you're creating
all these, you know, rebuttals,not listening to your partner.
If you can pause all that, thesecond hardest thing for me is
(14:18):
okay, what did I do?
Why is this happening?
What did I do to contributewhat's happening right now?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah, it's not blaming yourself.
It's different than blamingyourself, but it's recognizing
that in every argument there aretwo sides.
Two of us are coming at it andeach of us are probably
approaching it in ways thataren't necessarily helpful.
So, by being able to stop for aminute and be more
(14:47):
introspective, rather thanpointing the finger because
certainly pointing the finger,this is another thing we'll say
all the time too pointing thefinger will get you absolutely
nowhere.
Yeah, that's the defensive,that's blame, that's this is on
you.
I'm going to show you how I'mwinning.
This is your fault.
That's not going to get youanywhere, no matter how
righteous you feel about thesituation.
(15:08):
It's not helpful.
So the only thing that we foundthat is helpful is to shut all
that down, like enough of thatdoesn't get us anywhere.
So instead we're going to beintrospective and we're going to
ask ourselves what are wecontributing to this argument?
That's not helpful.
What have I done to contributeto this escalating or to
(15:28):
contribute to him feelingdefensive or feeling hurt?
I may have said something thatwas hurtful, or I may have
raised my voice.
I may have said something thatwas hurtful, or I may have
raised my voice, or I may haveblamed you for something like
what can I look at and be moreintrospective and say, okay, I
can take accountability for thefact that I yelled at you and
that was not helpful at all.
(15:49):
Or I can take accountabilityfor the fact that I didn't hear
you.
You said you wanted to be heardand you don't feel like I'm
hearing you and I'm gonna takeaccountability for that and I'm
gonna work on hearing you better.
That kind of stuff is what wemean by accountability.
It doesn't mean that people getthis confused all the time when
I say this You've been messagedabout this all the time, yeah.
(16:11):
Anytime I talk aboutaccountability, people are like,
oh okay, so I'm just supposedto sit back and let it happen.
No, that's not what I mean.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
That's being defensive, by the way.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yes, it's not what I'm meaning at all.
It doesn't mean they win.
It doesn't mean you take allthe blame.
It just means let me look atmyself, let me ask myself what
am I doing here that'scontributing to us not being
able to find our way out of this, or contributing to him being
hurt, or contributing to himbeing angry?
How can I then approach this ina different way?
Because it's not getting uswhere we want to be.
It never, ever equals.
(16:47):
It's all your fault.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
And would you say, the third way that we help fight
fair is being naked while wefight.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
No, we don't do that.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
No, we don't Dang it, man.
We need to try that.
We've talked about it before.
We need to try it.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
I don't think I would ever want to just like strip my
clothes off.
It's not funny when you'refighting.
It's not funny.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
We wouldn't know.
How would we know, honey, honey.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I think the other one that has been really big for us
is remembering that we are notfighting against each other.
We're trying to fight againstwhatever the argument's about
Meaning I'm not fighting againstyou, I'm not fighting you.
When you and I were able tolike dig down and realize that
(17:33):
most of our fights aren't reallyabout the fight.
They're about things that aremuch, much deeper than the fight
.
For instance, if you are latesomewhere or you're making me
late somewhere, and then I getangry and I come at you you're
making me late.
Why do you do this to me all thetime?
Instead of me coming at you.
Blaming, it's more helpful if Irecognize, okay, what's really
(17:57):
happening is me, is I'm feelingpanicked, that they're going to
be mad at me, that I'm not thereon time, that I'm going to
reflect as being like a badfriend or a bad sister, when I
can realize what's going oninside, rather than saying this
is all your fault.
You did this like being againmore introspective.
But what is?
(18:19):
What are we really fightingabout here?
If that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
No, that makes total sense.
I see what you're saying.
I was questioning it when youstarted it.
Now I'm like, oh no, you'reabsolutely right.
In fact, I said that defensewas probably the biggest shift
in our relationship when itcomes to fighting, and I'm
thinking this might even equalthat it was several years ago,
when you were.
You had brought to theattention that the main reasons
(18:43):
why we fight, we each have anunderlying reason for what's the
word you always said.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
It's the thing that most gets triggered when we're
arguing, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
So you always said that there was something that
gets triggered in us when we'rearguing.
And yeah, so you always saidthat there was something that
gets triggered in us when we'rearguing.
And for me it's a specific thing, for you it's a specific thing
and it really helped merecognize that when we're
fighting or when we start todisagree about something, that
underlying specific thing wasthe thing that I had, the thing
(19:14):
I had the most fear about whichis line.
Specific thing was the thingthat I had.
The thing I had the most fearabout was which is what, for me,
is not feeling loved, feelinglike you know I'm not going to
love you.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, You're not going to love me.
And for you it's usually mineis triggered by not feeling like
I'm enough.
Yeah, and that's when mydefenses will kick in.
If I am triggered and feelinglike I'm not enough, then I got
to prove and fight that I amenough.
And you prove and fight thatyou want to make sure nothing is
threatening my love for youyeah, threatening your feeling
(19:42):
of being loved.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
I want to just preface this.
What we're saying took a lot ofdeep diving and everybody's is
different.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
This is just our own recognition of what's being
triggered within us.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
But it took a lot of deep time to get to this.
But once we got to it and wesat with it for a while and then
we would have fights and thendissect the fight and then it
kept proving back to the samething and I'm like, oh, this is
weird.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
To where now we can.
I mean, this doesn't alwaysshow up, but sometimes, when
we're in an argument, we can sayoh, I can see you're being
triggered and thinking that I'mnot going to love you.
That's not what's happeninghere.
I do love you.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
That's not a threat here.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Or you saying the same to me, which can really
help.
It can really help diffuse anargument when you feel like, oh,
I'm seeing you, I understandthis is what's happening to you
and it's okay, we're safe, let'stalk about the thing that we
actually need to talk about andthen suddenly you don't have to
be so angry and defensive andyou can calm down and we can
(20:45):
actually address what needs tobe addressed.
It's great at diffusing anargument and making your partner
feel very seen and heard.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
A hundred percent.
This one didn't happen untillater on.
This is only a few years sincewe've been dealing with this.
What do we call this?
You need to call this something.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
I don't know.
I don't know.
But I do know that mostarguments are not going to be
about an argument.
They're going to be reallyabout something deep down like
an unmet need or a fear.
About something deep down likean unmet need or a fear.
That's what's being triggered.
It's not about, like, thedishes or the mess in the house,
or it's not about sex, or it'snot about money.
(21:26):
It's about something underlyingthat that's making you feel
afraid or that you're notgetting your needs met and when
you can really identify thoseand be able to talk about those,
what a different conversationyou can have and to recognize
with yourself.
Oh, that's things beingtriggered in me.
(21:48):
I need to let that down.
I need to say, hey, you knowwhat I'm feeling like.
I'm not enough when you'retelling me that that thing's
being triggered in me.
I need you to reassure me thatI am, so that we can move on and
discuss this in a healthymanner.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
This diffuses, like you said, our fights more than
anything, because I canrecognize how you're being
defensive, like if I bringsomething to you, and I can
recognize you're being defensivewhen I like, if I bring
something to you and like you'rerecognized you're being
defensive, and then I'llliterally can say, hey, tim,
this has nothing to do with younot being enough, like I want
you to hear that it's not, it'snot this, and it literally just
(22:25):
like.
You see your shoulders, yourbody language, everything, and
then you're like oh yeah, I'mbeing defensive, I'm sorry, you
know what I mean.
And then all of a sudden itgoes into accountability and
then we work through whatever itis we're doing and I'm just
saying for you you've done thesame for me multiple times.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
It gives you a lot of compassion for the other person
too.
When you can understand thatyou're feeling scared, you know
you're feeling worried, you'refeeling like you need something
that you're not getting.
That gives me a lot ofcompassion for you rather than
keeping me in this angry state,if I can get to the place of
really understanding you.
That deep compassion can leadus a lot through these arguments
(23:03):
and now I understand.
All three of these things areincredibly difficult.
We fail at them all the time.
We have big blowout fightswhere we hurt each other and
tears and we stomp away and allthat.
But the good news is that,because these are there now, we
do always find our way back tothem.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Quickly.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, usually.
Yeah, let these three thingshelp lead you through your
arguments and really, if you arepaying very close attention,
you'll understand that the workin the arguments and getting
them under control and makingthem healthier and fighting fair
have to do with you.
You have to be willing to dothe work in order to improve the
(23:43):
arguments.
Even if your spouse isn'twilling to do the work, I
understand that you doing yourown work is most often going to
have a positive ripple effect inyour marriage, Not you saying,
well, I'm going to do it, so youhave to do it.
You got to do it, joel, becauseI'm doing it.
I'm not being defensive, so yougot to not be defensive, but to
really understand that the workstarts within Work on your own
(24:06):
defensiveness, work on your ownaccountability, work on really
getting to understand yourselfand what's being triggered and
how you can approach thosethings differently, and it's
going to help you fight so muchmore fair and have much
healthier outcomes from thesearguments.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
That's it Okay.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
That I guess we'll do it for today.
We had a lot, a lot said.
I hope it all made sense andthat you got something out of
this.
This is truly what Joel and Iare always working on in our
arguments, and it doesn't haveto be perfect, it just has to be
progress.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
No-transcript.
Welcome to the Married and Naked Podcast.
I'm Tammy, founder of the blogMarried and Naked, certified
sexuality coach and speaker.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Joel, tv host , motivational speaker and the
guinea pig to the lessons you'reabout to learn.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
We're high school sweethearts, married over two
decades, and we're on a missionto help you create the marriage
you desire and deserve.
Let's get naked.
Welcome to the Married andNaked podcast.
Hi everybody, I'm happy to behere with you.
How are you, sweetie?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I am good, I'm happy to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Thank you.
You just got me some chocolatebecause my brain is feeling slow
and sluggish.
I really needed a pick-me-up,so thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I really wish we can showeverything that happens before
we hit record on the podcast.
There's a lot going on.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Mostly me complaining .
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I mean, I wasn't going to say that I wasn't going
to call you out, but one of thecomplaints was very justified.
We record this in our extrabedroom and we had two flies
come in this room and we'rebouncing off the window in the
mirror back and forth for about20 minutes.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yeah, that is such an annoying sound, it is so bad.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
We got rid of it and then my son came in to help us
with the technical stuff and helet it back in.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yeah, our son's been setting up our podcast for us.
I'm tired with the technicalstuff and he's good at it.
He's incredible at it he reallyis.
It's really nice.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
It is, it is.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
And he does it for free.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
So far, so far.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
For now.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I was thinking about today, like the season we're in.
He starts his senior year ofhigh school in two days which is
crazy.
And then, a week from that, wecelebrate our 27-year
anniversary Crazy.
And tomorrow I'm literallygetting specific about all the
(01:57):
days we're actually going to doa walkthrough to his potential
college for next year.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah, wow, not sure I'm going to survive all this
change.
That's college for next year.
Yeah, wow, not sure I'm goingto survive all this change.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
There's a lot of change.
Yeah, our daughter's moving outsoon, so this is wow.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
It's just going to be you and I here soon.
It's going to be you and I.
What on earth are we going todo?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
We'll actually be married and naked.
There you go, sorry.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I just want to make sure I work it in there somehow.
What do you think we'll do?
What is your thought?
We're still a ways away, by theway.
I'm very focused on myself andhow much.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
I'm going to miss them yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
That's where I'm at.
I'm sure we'll get to theMarried and Naked stuff.
Before that I got to getthrough the sadness stuff.
I think everybody handles itdifferently but I've had a lot
of people I've talked to thathave, that are having the time
of their lives.
You know others that are havinga real hard adjustment or I
think, more likely, you kind ofhave a hard adjustment and then
(02:54):
hopefully evolve into justenjoying that time in your life,
which is what I'm hoping for.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
We waited several years to have our first kid,
which was cool.
We got to be without kids, wegot to travel, we got to do a
lot of cool things, and then,obviously, you parents out there
know that kids changeeverything and for the next it's
been what 23 years for us Like.
Now you're starting to think,oh wow, we're going to go back
(03:20):
to what we were before.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Question mark question mark.
You know I think it'simpossible to go back to what
you were before.
Question mark question mark.
You know I think it'simpossible to go back to what
you were before.
We've changed as human beings,but I hope that we get to look
forward to, you know, a new timewe've never had before Freedom
that comes with being older andmore financially secure.
Before our daughter's financialinsecurity and I don't feel
(03:45):
like it was a time of likefreedom.
Let's go travel and all that.
We didn't have the money to dothat kind of stuff.
Yeah, the travel we did, we didit on a very, very tight budget
and now my hope is that we doget to travel a lot and really
explore the world without timeconstraints.
That'll be interesting to notbe running our life around a
(04:09):
school schedule.
But it also makes me sad, youknow.
I look at all the people buyingschool supplies for their kids
and our son has never beeninterested in shopping for
clothes or school supplies.
He could really care less.
He's had the same backpack forthree years.
He does not want a new one.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I have to beg him to get him a new pair of shoes.
Yeah, it's just Once a year.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
It's just not his thing, yeah.
So once my daughter graduated,I didn't get to do that anymore.
I'm not going to get to do thatanymore.
So that makes me sad looking atpeople going shoe shopping or
school shopping.
So it's a weird adjustmentalready and our kids are still
at home, but I can't evenimagine when they're gone.
But I do look forward to havinga sense of freedom that we
(04:54):
don't have now.
I definitely do.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Having your last kid enter their last year of high
school is pretty-.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
It's our last year of high school too, that's true.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Wow, that's so true.
Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, so we're switching gears here.
Let's get down to what we weregoing to talk about today, and
what I thought we would talkabout today is three ways that
we keep the fighting fair.
You know, fighting in arelationship is a really big
issue for all of us.
We all, you know everybodyfights.
We've had times in our marriagewhere we fought almost every
(05:29):
day, you know, and other timeswhere the fighting is very
sporadic and sparse.
Through the years, we havelearned how to fight better.
I think one of the things Ilearned most in marriage is I
thought that the goal would beto learn how not to fight.
I thought that was the goal.
If we could just stop fighting,then everything would be better
(05:52):
.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
But I've learned, like that's not the goal, not
destroying your marriage Becauseback in the day with us we were
fighting so dirty, so ugly thatit was tearing our marriage
apart.
Those fights were tearing ourmarriage apart and the progress
(06:21):
we've made is well.
We made a lot that haveaffected whether or not we're
fighting, but really we havelearned how to fight so much
better than we used to.
We still fall into old habitsall the time and they can still
be kind of ugly, but I feel likeit's night and day from how we
used to be because of somecertain strategies that we do to
make our fighting more fair.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I remember early on when we were a married couple
and I don't know who they were,why they were in our lives, but
I remember this couple saying wenever fight.
They had been together for sometime and they never fought.
And I was just like, whoa, how,oh my goodness, how do you do
that?
Wow.
And then you know, as time goeson and you grow wiser and I'm
(07:04):
thinking like, is it good?
That you never fought Makessense that two human beings are
going to disagree about certainthings.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
So I thought it would be good to share some of the
things that we have, we doimplement or we do work on.
When we are in the midst offights, I always felt like
people who don't fight do Idon't know if I trust them.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
You know, someone is going to send you a message
saying hey we've never fought.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
The thing is, two people are not going to agree on
everything.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
You're just not.
And if you're not fighting,what does that mean?
Does that mean somebody is justalways giving in, yeah, or are
you just so far above everybodyelse where you just know how to
compromise on every single thing?
And I mean, I'm sure there'ssome that are out there like
that, but for the most part,fights is just a normal part of
marriage and it shouldn't bemade to think that there's
(08:00):
anything wrong with yourmarriage.
If you're fighting Now, if thefighting is tearing your
marriage apart.
There's definitely some workthat needs to be done, but we're
going to fight.
We disagree.
We grew up differently.
We fought about how to raiseour children and we fought about
everything sex and money, and Imean everything.
(08:21):
We've been through it all and Ithink that that's a very normal
thing.
I think what I would like to dois just normalize that fighting
is normal and that's okay.
It's not to be like thosepeople that say, oh, we never
fight, you know, but to be like,oh, let's learn how to fight so
we can get through thiseffectively and honestly.
I feel like the fights that wehave are really what help us
(08:44):
grow.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Honestly, I feel like the fights that we have are
really what help us grow Forsure, especially since we've
been more effective in ourarguments, like we can grow so
much from an argument now.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah, well, I think it starts with me blaming you
for everything first of all, andthen we move from there.
So you, I'm pretty sure it'sall your fault.
Yeah, I mean it's you.
No, no, let's make thisstraight.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
You are responsible for all the in let's talk about
three things that we do to helpus fight fair.
The number one thing and I I'mgoing to say this over and over,
you've heard me say it over andover but I think the number one
thing that is important to usin our arguments is being able
(09:27):
to lay down our defenses.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
It's the hardest thing too.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
It is the hardest thing.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Because when the defenses are up, literally
nothing gets accomplished.
It just will circle and circleand circle and circle.
Somebody has to be willing tolay them down, and ideally it's
both of you to be able to get tothe meat of what the discussion
or what the argument isactually about.
Because For me, my go-to hasalways been to put my walls up
(09:55):
and to immediately fight my sideand to figure out how to win.
That's what I thought.
I just got to figure out how toprove my point enough so that
you can see my side, and theneverything's better.
But until you can see my side,I'm going to keep fighting my
side, and all that did was keepus in a perpetual cycle of
(10:17):
conflict.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Yeah, you know, it's funny, cause when I think about
our fights nowadays, usuallythey start off with like oh, I
think we're being defensive, Ithink you're being defense, I
think I'm being defensive, youknow what I mean, versus arguing
, arguing, arguing and then,like then pointing out the.
I think we usually pull out thedefensive word pretty quick.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Because we now know that if the defenses are up,
we're not going anywhere.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
You're not wrong.
It is like the one, the biggestthing that's definitely helped
shape our fights.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Let's talk about what defensive being defensive means
.
Like.
What does that actually looklike to me in my mind?
Instead of hearing what you'retrying to say in my mind, I'll
be like plotting a path or anargument, before I can even hear
what you're saying, because I'min my own head trying to say no
(11:08):
, he's wrong, this is what I'mgoing to say.
This is what I'm going to getready to say.
This is how I'm going to provemy point.
This is I'm going to say.
This is what I'm going to getready to say.
This is how I'm going to provemy point.
This is, I'm right.
And everything you say is justgoing to hit my wall of
defensive and bounce right backoff to you.
I don't know if that makes anysense, but nothing can get
through because I've got thiswall of uh-uh, I'm right and I'm
(11:31):
going to prove it to you, and Ican hear it now in my head, or
I can hear the words that comeout of my mouth.
I feel it in my body.
I'm feeling really tense andI'm feeling this need to like
fight and I have now gotten muchbetter at realizing okay, I've
got to calm that down, I got toshut this voice off in my head
and I got to fully tune intowhat you're saying and put all
my crap aside.
(11:52):
That's what being defensive isand what it looks like to lay it
down.
And it is incredibly difficultbecause I didn't even know I was
defensive before.
I just thought this is just howit's supposed to be and of
course I'm going to tell you howI feel.
Of course I'm going to tell youmy side.
But it came off in such a waythat didn't allow anything else
(12:13):
to come through.
And now I can really physicallyfeel it, I can hear it and I
can work really hard to shut itdown, and if I can't do it, then
I need a minute to like gatherthat within myself, to to lay it
down.
Did that make sense?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, no, it made sense.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
What about you?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
You said something in there about feeling it in your
body and I think for me, when Irecognize I'm being defensive, I
do feel it.
I feel this humming.
It's a feeling I get first, andthen I start ruminating over
the well, I'm going to bringthis, I'll make sure I get this.
So I'm not really payingattention to you just like
you're saying.
(12:57):
So yeah, I truly try to be intouch with that feeling.
I truly do it.
Like you said, it's not aperfect science.
We we fall into old habits allthe time.
But one thing I do know is wecome out of it a whole lot
quicker than we ever did before,and sometimes we don't even
fall into it.
It just you know we'll have asnap thing.
And then next thing you know,you're like oh wait, a minute,
(13:17):
I'm being defensive.
I need to chill out, okay, soand which I think I, if I'm not
mistaken, you're going to saythe second.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Tell me.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Number two is about being accountable.
So if you're not beingdefensive, if when I'm not being
okay, what am I doing here?
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Tell me what accountability means.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
So accountability for me is that I'm literally
turning, I'm looking into amirror and I'm literally saying
to myself what am I bringing tothis problem?
What am I doing to cause thisargument?
How am I causing this argumentor contributing to, Contributing
to this argument?
What am I doing?
(13:56):
Not, what are you?
The whole defensive thing.
So if you can get pastdefensiveness, calm down and
recognize either that feelingyou have or this you're creating
all these, you know, rebuttals,not listening to your partner.
If you can pause all that, thesecond hardest thing for me is
(14:18):
okay, what did I do?
Why is this happening?
What did I do to contributewhat's happening right now?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah, it's not blaming yourself.
It's different than blamingyourself, but it's recognizing
that in every argument there aretwo sides.
Two of us are coming at it andeach of us are probably
approaching it in ways thataren't necessarily helpful.
So, by being able to stop for aminute and be more
(14:47):
introspective, rather thanpointing the finger because
certainly pointing the finger,this is another thing we'll say
all the time too pointing thefinger will get you absolutely
nowhere.
Yeah, that's the defensive,that's blame, that's this is on
you.
I'm going to show you how I'mwinning.
This is your fault.
That's not going to get youanywhere, no matter how
righteous you feel about thesituation.
(15:08):
It's not helpful.
So the only thing that we foundthat is helpful is to shut all
that down, like enough of thatdoesn't get us anywhere.
So instead we're going to beintrospective and we're going to
ask ourselves what are wecontributing to this argument?
That's not helpful.
What have I done to contributeto this escalating or to
(15:28):
contribute to him feelingdefensive or feeling hurt?
I may have said something thatwas hurtful, or I may have
raised my voice.
I may have said something thatwas hurtful, or I may have
raised my voice, or I may haveblamed you for something like
what can I look at and be moreintrospective and say, okay, I
can take accountability for thefact that I yelled at you and
that was not helpful at all.
(15:49):
Or I can take accountabilityfor the fact that I didn't hear
you.
You said you wanted to be heardand you don't feel like I'm
hearing you and I'm gonna takeaccountability for that and I'm
gonna work on hearing you better.
That kind of stuff is what wemean by accountability.
It doesn't mean that people getthis confused all the time when
I say this You've been messagedabout this all the time, yeah.
(16:11):
Anytime I talk aboutaccountability, people are like,
oh okay, so I'm just supposedto sit back and let it happen.
No, that's not what I mean.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
That's being defensive, by the way.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yes, it's not what I'm meaning at all.
It doesn't mean they win.
It doesn't mean you take allthe blame.
It just means let me look atmyself, let me ask myself what
am I doing here that'scontributing to us not being
able to find our way out of this, or contributing to him being
hurt, or contributing to himbeing angry?
How can I then approach this ina different way?
Because it's not getting uswhere we want to be.
It never, ever equals.
(16:47):
It's all your fault.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
And would you say, the third way that we help fight
fair is being naked while wefight.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
No, we don't do that.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
No, we don't Dang it, man.
We need to try that.
We've talked about it before.
We need to try it.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
I don't think I would ever want to just like strip my
clothes off.
It's not funny when you'refighting.
It's not funny.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
We wouldn't know.
How would we know, honey, honey.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
I think the other one that has been really big for us
is remembering that we are notfighting against each other.
We're trying to fight againstwhatever the argument's about
Meaning I'm not fighting againstyou, I'm not fighting you.
When you and I were able tolike dig down and realize that
(17:33):
most of our fights aren't reallyabout the fight.
They're about things that aremuch, much deeper than the fight
.
For instance, if you are latesomewhere or you're making me
late somewhere, and then I getangry and I come at you you're
making me late.
Why do you do this to me all thetime?
Instead of me coming at you.
Blaming, it's more helpful if Irecognize, okay, what's really
(17:57):
happening is me, is I'm feelingpanicked, that they're going to
be mad at me, that I'm not thereon time, that I'm going to
reflect as being like a badfriend or a bad sister, when I
can realize what's going oninside, rather than saying this
is all your fault.
You did this like being againmore introspective.
But what is?
(18:19):
What are we really fightingabout here?
If that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
No, that makes total sense.
I see what you're saying.
I was questioning it when youstarted it.
Now I'm like, oh no, you'reabsolutely right.
In fact, I said that defensewas probably the biggest shift
in our relationship when itcomes to fighting, and I'm
thinking this might even equalthat it was several years ago,
when you were.
You had brought to theattention that the main reasons
(18:43):
why we fight, we each have anunderlying reason for what's the
word you always said.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
It's the thing that most gets triggered when we're
arguing, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
So you always said that there was something that
gets triggered in us when we'rearguing.
And yeah, so you always saidthat there was something that
gets triggered in us when we'rearguing.
And for me it's a specific thing, for you it's a specific thing
and it really helped merecognize that when we're
fighting or when we start todisagree about something, that
underlying specific thing wasthe thing that I had, the thing
(19:14):
I had the most fear about whichis line.
Specific thing was the thingthat I had.
The thing I had the most fearabout was which is what, for me,
is not feeling loved, feelinglike you know I'm not going to
love you.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, You're not going to love me.
And for you it's usually mineis triggered by not feeling like
I'm enough.
Yeah, and that's when mydefenses will kick in.
If I am triggered and feelinglike I'm not enough, then I got
to prove and fight that I amenough.
And you prove and fight thatyou want to make sure nothing is
threatening my love for youyeah, threatening your feeling
(19:42):
of being loved.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
I want to just preface this.
What we're saying took a lot ofdeep diving and everybody's is
different.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
This is just our own recognition of what's being
triggered within us.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
But it took a lot of deep time to get to this.
But once we got to it and wesat with it for a while and then
we would have fights and thendissect the fight and then it
kept proving back to the samething and I'm like, oh, this is
weird.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
To where now we can.
I mean, this doesn't alwaysshow up, but sometimes, when
we're in an argument, we can sayoh, I can see you're being
triggered and thinking that I'mnot going to love you.
That's not what's happeninghere.
I do love you.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
That's not a threat here.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Or you saying the same to me, which can really
help.
It can really help diffuse anargument when you feel like, oh,
I'm seeing you, I understandthis is what's happening to you
and it's okay, we're safe, let'stalk about the thing that we
actually need to talk about andthen suddenly you don't have to
be so angry and defensive andyou can calm down and we can
(20:45):
actually address what needs tobe addressed.
It's great at diffusing anargument and making your partner
feel very seen and heard.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
A hundred percent.
This one didn't happen untillater on.
This is only a few years sincewe've been dealing with this.
What do we call this?
You need to call this something.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
I don't know.
I don't know.
But I do know that mostarguments are not going to be
about an argument.
They're going to be reallyabout something deep down like
an unmet need or a fear.
About something deep down likean unmet need or a fear.
That's what's being triggered.
It's not about, like, thedishes or the mess in the house,
or it's not about sex, or it'snot about money.
(21:26):
It's about something underlyingthat that's making you feel
afraid or that you're notgetting your needs met and when
you can really identify thoseand be able to talk about those,
what a different conversationyou can have and to recognize
with yourself.
Oh, that's things beingtriggered in me.
(21:48):
I need to let that down.
I need to say, hey, you knowwhat I'm feeling like.
I'm not enough when you'retelling me that that thing's
being triggered in me.
I need you to reassure me thatI am, so that we can move on and
discuss this in a healthymanner.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
This diffuses, like you said, our fights more than
anything, because I canrecognize how you're being
defensive, like if I bringsomething to you, and I can
recognize you're being defensivewhen I like, if I bring
something to you and like you'rerecognized you're being
defensive, and then I'llliterally can say, hey, tim,
this has nothing to do with younot being enough, like I want
you to hear that it's not, it'snot this, and it literally just
(22:25):
like.
You see your shoulders, yourbody language, everything, and
then you're like oh yeah, I'mbeing defensive, I'm sorry, you
know what I mean.
And then all of a sudden itgoes into accountability and
then we work through whatever itis we're doing and I'm just
saying for you you've done thesame for me multiple times.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
It gives you a lot of compassion for the other person
too.
When you can understand thatyou're feeling scared, you know
you're feeling worried, you'refeeling like you need something
that you're not getting.
That gives me a lot ofcompassion for you rather than
keeping me in this angry state,if I can get to the place of
really understanding you.
That deep compassion can leadus a lot through these arguments
(23:03):
and now I understand.
All three of these things areincredibly difficult.
We fail at them all the time.
We have big blowout fightswhere we hurt each other and
tears and we stomp away and allthat.
But the good news is that,because these are there now, we
do always find our way back tothem.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Quickly.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, usually.
Yeah, let these three thingshelp lead you through your
arguments and really, if you arepaying very close attention,
you'll understand that the workin the arguments and getting
them under control and makingthem healthier and fighting fair
have to do with you.
You have to be willing to dothe work in order to improve the
(23:43):
arguments.
Even if your spouse isn'twilling to do the work, I
understand that you doing yourown work is most often going to
have a positive ripple effect inyour marriage, Not you saying,
well, I'm going to do it, so youhave to do it.
You got to do it, joel, becauseI'm doing it.
I'm not being defensive, so yougot to not be defensive, but to
really understand that the workstarts within Work on your own
(24:06):
defensiveness, work on your ownaccountability, work on really
getting to understand yourselfand what's being triggered and
how you can approach thosethings differently, and it's
going to help you fight so muchmore fair and have much
healthier outcomes from thesearguments.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
That's it Okay.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
That I guess we'll do it for today.
We had a lot, a lot said.
I hope it all made sense andthat you got something out of
this.
This is truly what Joel and Iare always working on in our
arguments, and it doesn't haveto be perfect, it just has to be
progress.
Thank you so much for beinghere today.
No-transcript.
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