March 7, 2024 • 40 mins
Have a question or comment? Send us a text message here.
Join us, Tammy and Joel, as we peel back the curtain on family life, sharing the humor and hurdles of our daily dance with life, love, and arguments.
Come with us through the maze of managing conflicts in relationships, drawing on our missteps and milestones.
You'll hear how we're learning to swap the blame game for a mirror, looking inward to cultivate self-awareness and accountability. It's a raw and honest look at the tug-of-war between old habits and new resolutions, as we aspire to turn every "I'm sorry" into a stepping stone toward better communication.
This episode is not just about recounting our squabbles but about uncovering the lessons within them. From navigating the rocky shores of defensiveness to the art of a well-timed timeout, we're here to share that even in the thick of it, laughter, love, and understanding can prevail.
Tune in and let's navigate these waters together.
Grab your set of the Married and Naked Date Night Questions For Couples card deck HERE
Find us on social:
Instagram @marriednnaked
Facebook @MarriedAndNaked
Pinterest @marriednnaked
TikTok @marriedandnaked
Email marriednnaked@gmail.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Married to Naked podcast.
I'm Tammy, founder of the blogMarried to Naked, certified
sexuality coach and speaker.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Joel, tv host , motivational speaker and the
guinea pig to the lessons you'reabout to learn.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
We're high school sweethearts, married over two
decades, and we're on a missionto help you create the marriage
you desire and deserve.
Let's get naked.
Welcome to the Married to Nakedpodcast.
Hi, everybody, happy to be heretoday.
How's it going?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hey baby, I jumped too soon.
Hi Tammy, how are you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
love you sound like you've had like three monsters.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I have not.
I've had one, and that is it.
That's why it was like six orfour hours ago, wow.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Four hours ago.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
No caffeine in my coffee this morning.
Caffeine free coffee, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Maybe it's the afterburn of that monster.
You got a bit too much energyfor me today.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Look, can I just say this guys, I need your help here
.
I walked in the room.
My son got picked up fromschool.
I did not know he was here.
I was up on a phone call, camedownstairs, walked in the room
and I said who's sitting thereon the couch?
I didn't see who it was.
And then my son said, hey, it'sme.
And I'm like hey, what's goingon?
How are you doing, how was yourday?
(01:14):
And my son says hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Dad, Can you take it down anotch?
My 16 year old son is asking meto take it down a notch and now
you're looking at me with thesame look that he had wanted me
to take it down a notch.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yes, I do want you to take it down a notch.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
So, as I started this , I just need your guys' help.
I am trapped in a family where,some reason, I am the outlier.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
You have way too much energy for all of us.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Well, I don't know that that's true.
It's 100% true, I don't know iftoo much is the right.
I have the right, theappropriate amount of energy For
me.
You guys just don't have enoughfor me.
Okay, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Fair enough.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Okay, I just wanted to get that out there publicly
and I feel better now.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Let's off my chest.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
What are we gonna talk about today?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
by the way, oh my gosh, you did us so much.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I seriously don't have.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Why don't I let you go ahead, Cause you seem to have
all the energy.
Go for it.
What are we gonna talk abouttoday?
I?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
honestly, are you serious?
Cause I have no clue.
Well, let's just talk about howhard you've been working lately
.
I just wanna let everybody andkind of love behind the scenes
BTS of what's been happening Inthe last two weeks.
You've done two talks.
You've posted I don't even knowhow many different posts out
(02:39):
there on social media your page,our page, my page.
You've done so many of those.
Your website crashed but beenvery busy in the last couple of
weeks I am very busy.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
What people may not know is that not only do I run
my social media page, I also runyour social media page and
started that about six monthsago or so, which, if you wanna
know it's a little shamelessplug it's IE Explorer.
Now you have.
That's Joel's page on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Now you have people that are listening.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
We know that there's people listening in Europe and
have no idea, of course, butthey could still check you out
and see what you're up to.
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I mean, okay, I go out to local.
First of all, ie, or InlandEmpire, is a part of Southern
California.
It's like two giant counties inSouthern California.
It's where we live.
It's where we live and for yearsI've gone around and I go and
try where to go, what to do andwhat to see, what to eat in our
local area.
Oftentimes I'm usually eating.
(03:41):
So if you watch me on socialmedia, I am trying or eating
something and I'm either makingyou jealous because you want it,
I'm making you hungry or justgrossing you out because I eat
so much food.
That's one of the three thingsthat I'm gonna end up doing if
you watch it.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
It's a tough gig.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
It's a oh my goodness .
Speaker 1 (03:57):
It is.
It's a tough gig.
You're so spoiled.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
It's so much fun.
It is so much fun, like if Icould have picked the dream job
and I was a little little kid.
You're like okay, joel, one dayyou're gonna travel to all
these places, you're gonna beable to try all this food, any
food you want, everywhere you go.
Would you do it?
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
So I took over your page, soI'm running both of our social
media pages, and so that hasbeen a huge shift for me and my
capacity to do anything else.
It's taken over my life and,yes, my website has crashed.
(04:39):
We currently have somebodyworking on it, but if you were
to go there right now, by thetime this comes out, it probably
is not going to be up andrunning just yet, but it's gonna
be better than ever, so I'msuper excited about it.
It was a long time coming, soI'm excited about the change.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, this is so cool .
So your website, which is yourblog, I mean basically
everything all in one your store.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
It's gonna be a great site now for our podcast, which
is what I've been wanting for along time.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Absolutely.
So we're saying, by the timethis is out, it'll be up.
Is that what we're saying?
Speaker 1 (05:11):
No, I'm saying it won't be up.
It might not be up, it's gonnatake a little while.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Okay, well, all that to say.
You've been really busy andreally focused and it just seems
like you need a little vacation.
You need some time off and timeaway.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Why do I feel like this has some kind of ulterior
motive?
It seems like something's gonnabenefit you.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I mean no, what I'm trying to say is you should go
away with your sister and yourgirlfriend.
Just go away, just a few of youguys.
Just go away, have a girlsweekend.
Okay, sounds, good Sounds gooddone, next weekend done.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, we actually do have a girls weekend plan.
You know that?
Yep, we're gonna go rent aplace.
We're gonna go play pickleballto our hearts content, because
it has its own pickleball court.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Oh serious, oh my God .
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, we're renting like a house, five of us
splitting it, but it's got itsown private pickleball court.
Wow, how cool is that.
That's pretty cool.
We didn't have the best time.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Well, there's five of you, which means you probably
need a six.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
So what we're Definitely no.
No boys allowed.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Oh, fine, fine.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Why don't we take all of your energy and let's direct
it into the area that I wannatalk about Today?
What I thought we would talkabout is some of the mistakes
that we've made in arguments andreally how we navigated those
mistakes to kind of come out onthe other side and be able to
use those lessons to ouradvantage to better resolve
(06:41):
conflict.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
This sounds like an important topic.
I make mistakes, you makemistakes, and sometimes one of
us makes more mistakes than theothers, so I think that might
have been you.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
I mean you're controlling the edit button on
this, so I need to listen to thefinal cut.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
So I thought we'd share four different mistakes
that and, trust me, we've madeendless mistakes.
But if we really analyze ourarguments and kind of where they
were at back in the days wherewe were really struggling, where
we were in this cycle ofconflict that we couldn't find
our way out of, when I look backat those times, I can see some
(07:19):
really clear things that werehanging us up.
We've made so many improvementson being able to resolve
conflict in a healthy way.
I mean, when was the last timethat we had an argument and
really how long did it last?
I think it's a question,because back in the day when we
(07:39):
would have arguments let's justgo back a little bit Many years
ago we were in this cycle ofconflict and what that looked
like as far as my memory isconcerned is we were just
bickering all the time and wewould literally just bicker
about everything.
That would turn into really bigarguments.
The arguments sometimes wentover days and usually they were
(08:03):
not resolved arguments.
So we kind of carried thiscycle of conflict around all the
time and I just rememberfeeling so tired and frustrated
and kind of hopeless that wewere never gonna be able to find
our way out of it.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I remember you saying all the time there hasn't been
a day that's gone by where wehaven't bickered, as you say all
the time, like you've gotrosy-colored glasses and I would
say to you well, no, no, we'renot bickering.
We didn't bicker about that, wejust disagreed about that.
I would like try to cover upthe truth.
I was trying to say more likedistinguish between what
(08:40):
bickering and what I just didn't.
We didn't agree.
See eye to eye.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
You're still trying.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I guess I am.
But, truth be told, I rememberyou saying it a lot, like I
don't even know.
It could be a week that I goneby, or even three weeks that I
gone by, and you would say to me, although there's not a day
that goes by without we don'targue or disagree with each
other, and I always used tothink, well, yeah, that's a
relationship Like that's whatpeople do in relationships.
(09:08):
And here we are years later, inlots of hard work, focused,
dedicated hard work, onimproving our relationship later
and I think back and like, okay, well, that may be what a
relationship's about.
But now I see how, with again alot of effort in a dedicated
(09:32):
partner and the ability,speaking for myself, my ability
to realize that, boy, it was Imaking some clear mistakes and I
should have been doing thingsbetter, that things could be so
much better.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
You just said that a relationship is about arguing.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah, like I guess what I'm trying to say is
everybody disagrees and arguesin a relationship.
If I look at my model my momand dad they argued all the time
and they loved each other morefierce than anyone I'd ever been
around.
But they argue to this day.
Argue all the time, bicker allthe time, but they love each
(10:10):
other, right?
Am I wrong about?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
that.
No, it's 100% true.
It is remarkable that they arestill like a happily married
couple, because I could not, andthat's where we, I think, come
into.
I think it's interesting thatyou said well, that's just how a
relationship is, because thatwas your model and the arguing
(10:32):
was my model too, but my modelwas more quiet arguing there was
.
When there was arguing, it wasyelling and loud, but it was
more about shoving things underthe rug.
So you and I are coming and Idon't really think about this
much when we are talking aboutarguments or a conflict
resolution and I should, becauseyou are what you've seen Like
(10:58):
that was our only models.
That's how we learned how toresolve conflict.
We either run away from it orwe go at it head on, or we go
out at loud or we shrink away,or.
I think it's just reallyinteresting to think about.
That's how we came into ourrelationship.
So everybody comes in withtheir own blueprint of what
conflict resolution should looklike and most often I imagine,
(11:22):
just like with us, it's going toclash heavily yeah, heavily,
because you tend to come outarguments in a much more, in a
bigger way, like you get loud,you kind of get bigger, like
you'll stand up, you know, orpace around.
I tend to come at them and I'mnot saying I don't yell or I do
(11:42):
certainly.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
You definitely have your moments.
Of course I do, which I'mcomplimenting you on that.
I mean you definitely have.
You're complimenting me.
I'm complimenting, I meanyou're talking about me being
bigger.
I'm like dang man.
I've witnessed Tammy.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
I've lost my crap.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Godzilla Tammy, which is I mean, it's a compliment, I
say that.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Wow, you just threw me in.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
No, no, no, I elevated you is what I did.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yes, I do get big and loud, but what usually happens
is that has an expiration and ittends to be fairly quick, and I
will, instead of continuing onwith that whereas you can go on
with that for a really long timeI will just shut down.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, that's, true, and get quiet.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
But anyway, it's interesting to think about
yourselves as a couple and howyou both approach conflict and
how those have been guided bythe people in your life, and
what adjustments do you need tomake so that it works good for
your current relationship.
Then you and I have done that.
We've obviously learned verymuch through the hard way,
(12:49):
through this cycle of conflictthat we were in.
So let's talk about some ofthese mistakes we made.
The first one I wanna talkabout is one of the biggest
mistakes that we've made inarguments and, of course, all of
these we still do sometimes,but we are way better at this.
The first one is using blame.
Blame can be incredibly damagingto relationship and what you
(13:12):
and I have learned is that itreally doesn't have a place in
an argument and it doesn't havea place in our marriage.
It can be very toxic.
It's not a path to resolving anargument.
We've certainly learned thatAll it tends to do is perpetuate
it.
Blame can make a partner feelsmall, unloved, unheard and
(13:33):
attacked, which can affect asense of trust in the
relationship.
It can be abusive if constantlyused without checking.
I think one of the reasons whyour arguing just kept going and
going and going is because wewere not just in a circle of
conflict, we were in a circle ofblame.
Every argument we had, I feel,was trying to point fingers at
(13:56):
the other person about how theydid it wrong.
I was trying to constantly showyou how you were doing
something wrong and it was yourfault and I felt a hundred
percent justified in doing that.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Totally agree with you.
I mean I'm I mean it was yourfault.
Every time it absolutely.
You know we're being real here.
I mean I think about this allthe time, about how did we
become so wise as time's gone on?
I'm like I I can't argue withyou and I literally think this
is all your fault.
I Physically can't do thatanymore and I know at one point
(14:32):
I did like how dare you questionme?
It's not even the way I thinkanymore and I hope I don't do
that anymore.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
No, I think that the reason we are where we are is
because, along the way, we bothdecided that we each had work to
do and we were willing toFigure out that work and do the
work.
We were willing to take reallyhard looks at ourselves, and
(15:05):
that's where the wisdom began tostart.
We saw that we are making ourown mistakes, we are
contributing to where thisrelationship is at and it's not
in a good place, and that's whatstarted it all.
And now, because we've beendoing that for so many years,
being able to step back and lookat ourselves feels like second
(15:26):
nature.
It's not easy, but it'ssomething we always do.
Always we can get in an argument, step out or I step out, or
whatever happens, and then 10,15 minutes or whatever we're
like, dang it.
What did I do to contribute tothat?
This is where theaccountability piece comes in,
and if you are in a cycle of ofconflict and if you are an
(15:46):
encycl of blame, the best placeto start is to work on being
accountable.
I'll always promote working onyourself first and foremost, and
the reason that is is because,if you point your, when you
pointed the finger at me, thefirst thing I wanted to do Was
fight my side.
Yeah if I point the finger atyou, you're gonna want to fight
(16:08):
your side, you're gonna want toprove me wrong, and Somewhere
along the way I realized that'snot working.
That's not working.
So instead of pointing it atyou, I'm.
My job needs to become pointingit at myself and Beginning to
analyze what am I doing, becauseI can't control you.
I can control myself, and Ineed to start working on having
(16:32):
better tools to navigate thesearguments.
I need to start doing a betterjob and I feel like and you can
correct me if I'm wrong, but Ifeel like that Transitions
started with me.
We talk about it all the timehow I kind of had this epiphany
about account accountabilityafter talking with a friend of
mine and I decided I wanted towork on accountability because
(16:54):
we were just so stuck in thisugliness and when I started
doing the, that work within ourarguments, you, we both started
seeing improvement and Then,through that, you were like,
okay, I need to start doing thistoo.
She's working hard at it, I cansee it's helping.
I need to do the same thing.
And Then together we wereworking on it and we were
(17:16):
improving, and that's what setsus apart, I think, from a lot of
other couples who I hear fromis that you have to both be
willing to do the work.
You have to both be willing tosee that you yourself have a lot
of work to do.
Quit looking at what yourpartner has to do and I'm not
saying I'm not saying to letthem just get away with all
(17:37):
their negative behaviors.
I'm not saying that at all.
What I'm saying is the firstplace to look is that yourself.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
You're absolutely right.
That is exactly where itstarted.
Think about this.
We would add the argument, andour typical is you said this and
then your response wasn't whatit typically was, which is and
you're this and you're that itwas.
Yeah, I see how my actionscould have contributed to that
problem.
Can you imagine if your spousewere to do that in an argument?
(18:07):
Talk about disarming andCompletely having you reevaluate
what you're about to becauseyou're ready to go on the
defense, but when you stop thatand when you turn around and
take it and I'm not saying to,I'm not saying to take the
argument, but when you becomeaccountable, for your own part
and for your own mistakes,because in every argument, every
(18:29):
argument, I have at least asmall role in it.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
When you, when you do that, itbecomes a very, very different
discussion.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, and what happened?
Is you naturally started to dothe same thing?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, it totally Shifts the environment to where
now?
Speaker 1 (18:46):
without, without me even saying hey, you need to be
accountable to all, I'm beingaccountable, you need to be too.
I never said that exactly wasjust a natural Response from me,
kind of leading by example as Iwas learning myself.
It was just kind of yournatural Response to that example
.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah, and I again, I don't want people to think that
we don't argue.
You said in the very beginningwe do have disagreements, we
don't argue, but nothing likebefore.
And and I think this I don'tknow what the other three things
are you're about to say, butthis is definitely the biggest
one for me.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Well, you were talking about the next thing,
and the next thing is what leadsdirectly from blame, and you've
already used the word, which isdefensive defensive, yes,
defensive defensiveness.
Yes, being defensive, defensivewas a huge mistake in our
marriage.
Dr John Gottman, who's amarriage researcher and can
predict the probability ofdivorce and newlyweds within
(19:40):
just a few minutes of seeingthem interact with each other,
calls defensiveness one of thefour horsemen of the apocalypse
of marriage.
When we feel accused, we feelthe need to defend and fight
back.
You point the finger, I'm gonnafight my side.
The thing is Defensivedefensiveness.
That tactic is rarely effective.
Shocker, although it's reallynormal to feel defensive.
(20:05):
When you're attacked, of courseyou're gonna feel defensive.
It needs to be understood thatit's not an effective way to
resolve an argument.
Defensiveness perpetuates it.
And I feel like I have learnedthis so deeply in my core
because I remember all thoseyears ago I was in a time when
(20:25):
we fought Damn, you're sodefensive.
Why are you so defensive?
I can't even talk to you.
You're so defensive and I wouldbe like I'm not being defensive
.
I don't know what you'retalking about.
I'm not being defensive, I'mjust trying to show that my side
of it, you know, and I I don'tknow where along the way, but I
remember I just started thinkingOkay, he's telling me I'm being
(20:46):
defensive, there's got to besomething here.
So I really started payingattention To how I would start
to feel in an argument.
I started to look for thatdefensiveness and I got good at
being able to recognize it bydoing that.
I could then say oh, that'sthat defensiveness he's talking
(21:08):
about.
I need to figure out how toshut that defensiveness down,
because what you would tell meis I can't even talk to you,
you're being so defensive,you're not listening to me,
you're being so defensive.
And you were 100% right,because all I was doing in my
brain was like planning mydefense Right.
That doesn't make for a verygood listener.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
We're both guilty of this.
Really, we're both 100% guilty,and I feel like we do a much,
much better job with blame.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
I don't feel like it really enters our arguments
anymore.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
No, absolutely, I totally agree with you,
defensive this.
I feel like it's hidden backthere and then suddenly one of
us says something and it justjumps up and it grabs us,
sometimes Because it's a verynatural response.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I think If you're feeling attacked by somebody,
you're going to feel defensiveand that's 100% OK.
It's fine to feel that way.
The problem comes when it thenaffects how you can navigate
conflict, and that's what it wasdoing.
It didn't allow me to hear youin any way.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
I feel like for both of us, when we each say to each
other you're being defensive,it's an immediately knee jerk
react no, we're not.
And then, when that's said, Ifeel like, oh crap, that's a
definite sign that I'm beingdefensive.
Do you say that to me and myknee jerk is like no, I'm not.
You're like oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
I am yeah, and I would caution against using
you're being defensive, becausethat is kind of blame.
But I feel like for you and I,because we've done so much work,
it is something important forus to say to each other, and
when you say it, then I have tothen look at myself.
I think it.
For us it can be utilized as atool, whereas other people, if
(22:53):
you haven't done that work, Iwould caution against saying
you're being defensive, becausethat is not going to have the
response that you want it tohave.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
I would never go at you and say, timmy, you're just
being defensive.
That's just not the way wecommunicate.
I mean, sweetheart, I need youto just hear this, hear it
gently that you're being alittle defensive and we're not
really getting to the core ofwhat we're talking about.
Yeah, yeah, so you're right.
We don't say to each other as ameans, accusation, accusation.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Right, it's more of an awareness thing.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Government says the antidote to it defensiveness is
accountability, and we've talkedabout accountability.
That means really hearing yourpartner's concern and owning up
to your partner, just as we'vetalked about before.
Even if it's only a small part,the key for me and being able
to move through defensivenessand move through blame was being
able to look and point outsomething that I've done to
(23:49):
contribute to that argument,even if it was the tiniest
little thing, like I spoke in away I shouldn't have, or I
raised my voice or I wasdefensive.
Whatever I can own up to, ourwillingness to acknowledge that
we may actually be at fault orpartially at fault is really the
way out, and this is whatGottman said and how.
(24:10):
He's find remarkable is, whenwe were going through this, I
had no idea who, john Gottman-was.
I didn't know who all thesemarriage people were.
Somehow this stuff justhappened.
And then, way after I startedmy blog and I'd start doing all
this research into deep researchinto these marriage people, and
I'd see these things oh my gosh, accountability it's that word.
(24:31):
We've been saying that word forso long.
That changed our marriage, andthis is an example right here.
Our willingness to acknowledgethat we may actually be at fault
or partially at fault is reallythe way out.
It was 100% our way out.
100%.
It is still our way out.
If I can just look at myselfinstead of pointing it at you,
(24:54):
we will eventually find our wayout of it.
I'm not saying that I'm 100% atfault and I've got to own up to
everything and it's all myresponsibility.
I don't want that to ever beinterpreted that way, because
sometimes it is.
That's not what I mean.
But my job in this relationshipis to analyze the way I am
approaching conversations, theway I'm approaching conflict, my
(25:18):
role in this relationship, andam I doing a good job at it.
If I'm more focused on you,you're never going to be able to
find your way to a middleground.
It's just always going to be afight.
If you could just switch it on.
You look within yourself, doyour own work and ideally and
(25:40):
hopefully that has a rippleeffect in your marriage that
your spouse will then in turn dothe same.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
You need to snip that part out right there, because
I'm not kidding.
That is beautifully said.
You're not talking aboutchanging a person.
You're not talking about fixinga person.
You're literally talking into,you're pointing the finger right
back at you which is the thingyou said in the very beginning
and you're being accountable foryour own actions, your own
changes, your own fixes, inorder to basically get the life,
(26:07):
have the life you truly wantand, like you always say, having
a partner who's willing to godown that journey with you.
Be accountable with you, makethese changes with you.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Internally, the external appears At least it has
in our case and many otherpeople that Right and you may
not have a partner who iswilling to take that journey
with you, who's willing to dothat in our work.
For me, it's knowing that I didliterally everything I felt I
(26:40):
could do to be the best partner,the best version of myself that
I could be, if your partner isnot, in turn, doing that.
I posted something about thistoday because the hard facts is,
you cannot change your spouse.
So many people reach out, aretelling me all the things that
their spouse is doing andthey're incredibly disrespectful
(27:01):
, incredibly hurtful, sometimesemotionally abusive or verbally
abusive, and they're asking mewhat do I do?
How do I change them?
And the truth, the hard truth,is you're not gonna, you're not
gonna be able to.
I can't, I couldn't change you.
That was one of the biggestrealizations I ever had.
I can't change you.
You luckily changed you and did.
(27:24):
I influenced you by my living,by me trying to work on myself,
by me doing that work.
I influenced you.
You have to be willing to makethose changes for yourself and
many people just they're sittingaround waiting for their spouse
to change and they're puttingup with incredibly disrespectful
(27:45):
behaviors.
I just want so bad for peopleto hear that they can't force
change.
The question is can I change myspouse or how can I change my
spouse?
The question is, if you don'thave a partner who's willing to
go on this ride with you andwilling to step up and do their
work, the question is is thatthe right person for you?
And that's the hard questionthat I feel like sometimes we
(28:08):
tiptoe around, but it's thetruth Are they the right person
for you?
I don't believe that everycouple that gets married is
meant to be married or the rightmatch for each other.
The reason we were able to bewhere we are is because we were
able to take the ride together,because we were each willing to
put in the internal work thatneeds to be done.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
For sure yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
One of the other mistakes we made and I think,
one that I feel like we stillneed to work on in a healthier
way rather than in an angry way,is taking a break, is learning
how and when to take a break,and understanding that it's
inevitable that some argumentsare going to get heated ours
(28:54):
still do and we may findourselves boiling and kind of
seeing red and able to get aclear thought, but if we find
ourselves going in circles ornotice that feeling of getting
too heated, it's okay to ask fora break.
Taking a break from an argumentcan be a really helpful
strategy in conflict management,and I feel like this is
something that we're not greatat doing, because sometimes our
(29:18):
break looks like just walkingaway.
If I walk away which I tend tobe the one that does the walking
away I wasn't going to pointyour fingers or make any bling.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I'm owning that, 100% owning that.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
I tend to be the one that walks away, and when I do
that, it freaks you out and whatI think is happening and I'm
just now kind of processing thisis I think that taps into your
feelings of fear, of abandonment, because I'm just walking away
and you don't know what theheck's going on.
So then you get like loud andangry.
And then I get angry thatyou're yelling and you're loud.
(29:49):
But if we could handle it in away where it's like hey, it's
getting heated right now I'mseeing red, I'm boiling.
Let's just take a 15 minutebreak.
Let's come back in 15 minutesand let's re-approach.
That's such a healthier way todo it.
Do we take breaks?
Yes, do we come back afterthose breaks?
(30:10):
100%, the break doesn't meanyou get to then forget about the
argument and ignore it and moveon with your life.
No, it's agreeing to a time andit's agreeing to come back
whenever that's going to be andre-approach the discussion.
Sometimes for me that meansovernight.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, I love it how you've always gone against the
grain.
You've always scoffed at thephrase of never go to bed angry
and you always kind of laugh atit.
Anytime it's in a movie,anytime it shows up, you're like
yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Well, for some people that works great, but for me it
doesn't.
Because if we are late into thenight having an argument, I get
to the point where I cannotthink or function and I get so
tired and overwhelmed by thatfatigue that I can't function
enough to find myself to resolvean argument.
I do much better when I getsleep.
(31:04):
I'll always, always, can comethe next morning in a completely
different mindset, ready totackle whatever that is, and we
may still go right back into theargument, but I am much more
ready to be able to handle thatin a healthier manner.
So I don't agree that everymarriage should have the saying
never go to bed angry.
(31:24):
Some it works great, for me itdoesn't.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
I feel like that whole stepping away is as much
as I don't like to do it.
I feel like it always serves uswell.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Always serves us well .
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah, I think one of the keys in when you are
stepping away is to make surethat that time is not utilized
to then build your case.
It should be really just take abreath, go distract yourself
with something else, justbreathe and then come back to it
with kind of a fresh mindsetrather than one that's been
ruminating.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
I can't think of a recent time when I mean, how
amazing is that.
I can't think of Any recentarguments where we've had to.
Well, I take it back, we hadone, the other night.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
We did have one.
There's waiting for you tobring it up.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
And that was the first time in a long time like
we, yeah.
I mean at least months, rightTim.
Yeah, I think and in ourargument was.
I didn't know what the argumentwas.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
I don't remember what it was about.
I remember how it was resolved,but I don't remember what it
was about and I remember sayingthis is stupid, why are we
fighting?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
and then what happened?
Something happened to where Ihad to like leave the room.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
So I think you chose to leave the room.
You were doing what we do andyou walked out that time.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I just remember walking out, being in my office,
and you walking into my office,we embraced right away.
I just remember saying I'm sosorry, I'm so sorry that,
whatever I can't remember whatthe topic was you said the same
thing and it was done, you know.
And if we do.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
That's typically how they're resolved.
Now We'll have the argument.
Most often, one of us will takea break, usually not in the
healthiest way, so something weneed to work on, but it usually
doesn't take more than 10, 15minutes or something like that,
when either one of us is comingto the other and being
(33:15):
accountable, apologizing tosaying I love you, you know all
that kind of stuff, and we findour way to a quick resolve.
And the last mistake that we'vemade is Bringing up the past,
and this is one I don't think wedo too much of anymore, but it
used to be quite the pattern.
(33:37):
Bringing up the past during anargument can be a sure way of
leading to more arguments.
The truth is, we think we canrecall the past perfectly, but
bringing it up can be riddledwith errors and can cause
feelings of hurt, attack andfrustration.
One of my biggest pet peeves isyou Bringing up the past into
(34:01):
the argument, and one of thereasons it's Really frustrating
with for me and you know thisobviously is because I have a
terrible memory and you have anamazing memory.
So you will try to like recountsomething of a previous
argument or previous somethingand Say I said something or did
(34:23):
something and I literally willhave zero recollection and it
feels like I'm being trapped,you know, like you're trying to
trap me into something or catchme into something, and I can't
even Defend myself at allbecause I don't remember.
So I think it's.
It's never served us wellBringing up the past.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yeah, that's funny because I remember saying to you
a lot we should record ourconversation, we should record
our argument so that we coulddocument it.
We can remember what we'resaying letter later.
You Hated when I said that andthere's a couple times we're
actually hit record on that itjust makes me angry right now.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
So and can you just imagine Listeners, maybe your
partner does this Imagine you inlike the in like a heated
argument, like you're justyelling at each other and your
spouse hits record On the phoneor says I'm gonna record this,
or goes to pull out their phone,is trying to find them.
I mean, talk about taking anargument from like, let's say,
(35:31):
50 to 110.
That's the way to do it.
It was so Infuriating becausethat was your way of saying you
wanted to catch me doingsomething that you were trying
to prove me wrong at.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
I mean, yeah, but but not in that sense.
It was.
I mean, ultimately, yes, that's, that's correct, but it was
because of what you just said.
Sometimes you always said I'mnot gonna, I don't remember this
.
I mean, then we were likefighting in circles.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
That's what it see Like the army, about my memory
it was about that we would go incircles and you would be losing
your mind.
I would, and I'm like trying tolike catch me and being the
fault of it, like this is notwhat we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
You brought up something totally different.
No, I'm not, and then I wouldgo back to recount what we
started.
So I'm like let me record thisand I mean, that's just like you
said.
That took it to a whole newlevel, and so I don't recommend
anybody doing that pulling out arecording device and or
bringing up the past or bringingup the past.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Not in an argument.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
It's not the right time to bring it up in a current
argument, because then you'rejust gonna be arguing about what
the other Thing was about.
You're not focused on what thecurrent argument is.
You need to stay as focused asyou can, and I know you would
tell me all the time that thatwas something that was hard for
me to do, but trying to bepresent in that particular
argument is really important.
(37:03):
I'm not saying don't ever bringup the past, because yeah
there's plenty of things thatI'm sure need to be Healed or
managed or work through from thepast.
There's plenty of lessons to belearned from the past.
Just don't do it in the heat ofthe moment.
It's not gonna serve you at all.
Do it at another time.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, and you're right, we do very.
We don't do that anymore.
I don't see that happening.
We know that doesn't?
That's like a Quick sand really.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Exactly the.
So those are the four mistakeswe made in arguments.
We've made many, many more andI'm sure we will make many more
in the future.
But these are some good thingsto really kind of hold as tools
for you to utilize In yourconflict.
And if, the more you canpractice I'm telling you the
first times it'll be terribleand don't try them all at once,
(37:51):
you know, say to yourself, okay,I'm gonna work on being, I'm
gonna work on not using blame inthis argument.
Don't try to do them all atonce.
Take one and really work on itand kind of hone it and get good
at it and Then bring in anotherone.
And bring in another one.
And the more you can practice,the better and better and better
it's gonna be.
Trust me, when I first startedtrying to recognize
(38:14):
defensiveness, it was so hardfor me to see it, so hard.
But I just kept trying.
I kept listening to you, I kepttrying to pay attention to how
I felt, paying attention to whatI said, and I got better and
better at it.
And now I see it almostimmediately in Myself.
I can see it right away.
So just keep practicing, keepdoing it.
(38:36):
You'll get better and betterand better.
Don't give up.
You can do this.
And If you're really reallystuck in just a cycle of
argument, cycle of conflict thatyou cannot find your way out of
, no matter what you do, Istrongly recommend you finding a
therapist, a counselor, thatcan help the two of you Gain
some tools so that you canbetter navigate these conflicts,
(38:57):
because conflicts will takeyour marriage down.
You got to find your way out,so find help If.
If you need to, don't hesitateto do that.
All right, baby, thanks forgoing down a memory lane with me
.
It had some, had some, what doyou call them?
It had some Potholes, yes, butthat's okay.
(39:20):
That's okay.
We're not perfect.
No I still have a lot to learn.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
No, you know what I love doing this, though, because
it especially a topic like this, because it is, it's not
something we yeah, we definitelylearned from it, and we've
there's few of these that werebetter at, but there's still
things that we I mean it's stillgreat reminder for the next
time we do have an argument toremember.
Oh yeah, yeah, I gotta stopbeing a little defensive or
recognize or we need a time out.
(39:45):
You know, yeah, like you need tosay it out loud like, yeah, we
always do better when we taketime, but I've never been one to
volunteer right, right, yeah,next time it's your turn.
I will report back.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Thank you so much for listening.
I hope everybody has a greatday and we'll talk to you next
time on the married and nakedpodcast.
Bye, everybody.
Welcome to the Married to Naked podcast.
I'm Tammy, founder of the blogMarried to Naked, certified
sexuality coach and speaker.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Joel, tv host , motivational speaker and the
guinea pig to the lessons you'reabout to learn.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
We're high school sweethearts, married over two
decades, and we're on a missionto help you create the marriage
you desire and deserve.
Let's get naked.
Welcome to the Married to Nakedpodcast.
Hi, everybody, happy to be heretoday.
How's it going?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hey baby, I jumped too soon.
Hi Tammy, how are you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
love you sound like you've had like three monsters.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I have not.
I've had one, and that is it.
That's why it was like six orfour hours ago, wow.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Four hours ago.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
No caffeine in my coffee this morning.
Caffeine free coffee, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Maybe it's the afterburn of that monster.
You got a bit too much energyfor me today.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Look, can I just say this guys, I need your help here
.
I walked in the room.
My son got picked up fromschool.
I did not know he was here.
I was up on a phone call, camedownstairs, walked in the room
and I said who's sitting thereon the couch?
I didn't see who it was.
And then my son said, hey, it'sme.
And I'm like hey, what's goingon?
How are you doing, how was yourday?
(01:14):
And my son says hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Dad, Can you take it down anotch?
My 16 year old son is asking meto take it down a notch and now
you're looking at me with thesame look that he had wanted me
to take it down a notch.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yes, I do want you to take it down a notch.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
So, as I started this , I just need your guys' help.
I am trapped in a family where,some reason, I am the outlier.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
You have way too much energy for all of us.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Well, I don't know that that's true.
It's 100% true, I don't know iftoo much is the right.
I have the right, theappropriate amount of energy For
me.
You guys just don't have enoughfor me.
Okay, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Fair enough.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Okay, I just wanted to get that out there publicly
and I feel better now.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Let's off my chest.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
What are we gonna talk about today?
Speaker 1 (02:07):
by the way, oh my gosh, you did us so much.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I seriously don't have.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Why don't I let you go ahead, Cause you seem to have
all the energy.
Go for it.
What are we gonna talk abouttoday?
I?
Speaker 2 (02:18):
honestly, are you serious?
Cause I have no clue.
Well, let's just talk about howhard you've been working lately
.
I just wanna let everybody andkind of love behind the scenes
BTS of what's been happening Inthe last two weeks.
You've done two talks.
You've posted I don't even knowhow many different posts out
(02:39):
there on social media your page,our page, my page.
You've done so many of those.
Your website crashed but beenvery busy in the last couple of
weeks I am very busy.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
What people may not know is that not only do I run
my social media page, I also runyour social media page and
started that about six monthsago or so, which, if you wanna
know it's a little shamelessplug it's IE Explorer.
Now you have.
That's Joel's page on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Now you have people that are listening.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
We know that there's people listening in Europe and
have no idea, of course, butthey could still check you out
and see what you're up to.
What do you do?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I mean, okay, I go out to local.
First of all, ie, or InlandEmpire, is a part of Southern
California.
It's like two giant counties inSouthern California.
It's where we live.
It's where we live and for yearsI've gone around and I go and
try where to go, what to do andwhat to see, what to eat in our
local area.
Oftentimes I'm usually eating.
(03:41):
So if you watch me on socialmedia, I am trying or eating
something and I'm either makingyou jealous because you want it,
I'm making you hungry or justgrossing you out because I eat
so much food.
That's one of the three thingsthat I'm gonna end up doing if
you watch it.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
It's a tough gig.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
It's a oh my goodness .
Speaker 1 (03:57):
It is.
It's a tough gig.
You're so spoiled.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
It's so much fun.
It is so much fun, like if Icould have picked the dream job
and I was a little little kid.
You're like okay, joel, one dayyou're gonna travel to all
these places, you're gonna beable to try all this food, any
food you want, everywhere you go.
Would you do it?
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, it's pretty cool.
So I took over your page, soI'm running both of our social
media pages, and so that hasbeen a huge shift for me and my
capacity to do anything else.
It's taken over my life and,yes, my website has crashed.
(04:39):
We currently have somebodyworking on it, but if you were
to go there right now, by thetime this comes out, it probably
is not going to be up andrunning just yet, but it's gonna
be better than ever, so I'msuper excited about it.
It was a long time coming, soI'm excited about the change.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, this is so cool .
So your website, which is yourblog, I mean basically
everything all in one your store.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
It's gonna be a great site now for our podcast, which
is what I've been wanting for along time.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Absolutely.
So we're saying, by the timethis is out, it'll be up.
Is that what we're saying?
Speaker 1 (05:11):
No, I'm saying it won't be up.
It might not be up, it's gonnatake a little while.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Okay, well, all that to say.
You've been really busy andreally focused and it just seems
like you need a little vacation.
You need some time off and timeaway.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Why do I feel like this has some kind of ulterior
motive?
It seems like something's gonnabenefit you.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I mean no, what I'm trying to say is you should go
away with your sister and yourgirlfriend.
Just go away, just a few of youguys.
Just go away, have a girlsweekend.
Okay, sounds, good Sounds gooddone, next weekend done.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, we actually do have a girls weekend plan.
You know that?
Yep, we're gonna go rent aplace.
We're gonna go play pickleballto our hearts content, because
it has its own pickleball court.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Oh serious, oh my God .
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, we're renting like a house, five of us
splitting it, but it's got itsown private pickleball court.
Wow, how cool is that.
That's pretty cool.
We didn't have the best time.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Well, there's five of you, which means you probably
need a six.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
So what we're Definitely no.
No boys allowed.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Oh, fine, fine.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Why don't we take all of your energy and let's direct
it into the area that I wannatalk about Today?
What I thought we would talkabout is some of the mistakes
that we've made in arguments andreally how we navigated those
mistakes to kind of come out onthe other side and be able to
use those lessons to ouradvantage to better resolve
(06:41):
conflict.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
This sounds like an important topic.
I make mistakes, you makemistakes, and sometimes one of
us makes more mistakes than theothers, so I think that might
have been you.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
I mean you're controlling the edit button on
this, so I need to listen to thefinal cut.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
So I thought we'd share four different mistakes
that and, trust me, we've madeendless mistakes.
But if we really analyze ourarguments and kind of where they
were at back in the days wherewe were really struggling, where
we were in this cycle ofconflict that we couldn't find
our way out of, when I look backat those times, I can see some
(07:19):
really clear things that werehanging us up.
We've made so many improvementson being able to resolve
conflict in a healthy way.
I mean, when was the last timethat we had an argument and
really how long did it last?
I think it's a question,because back in the day when we
(07:39):
would have arguments let's justgo back a little bit Many years
ago we were in this cycle ofconflict and what that looked
like as far as my memory isconcerned is we were just
bickering all the time and wewould literally just bicker
about everything.
That would turn into really bigarguments.
The arguments sometimes wentover days and usually they were
(08:03):
not resolved arguments.
So we kind of carried thiscycle of conflict around all the
time and I just rememberfeeling so tired and frustrated
and kind of hopeless that wewere never gonna be able to find
our way out of it.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
I remember you saying all the time there hasn't been
a day that's gone by where wehaven't bickered, as you say all
the time, like you've gotrosy-colored glasses and I would
say to you well, no, no, we'renot bickering.
We didn't bicker about that, wejust disagreed about that.
I would like try to cover upthe truth.
I was trying to say more likedistinguish between what
(08:40):
bickering and what I just didn't.
We didn't agree.
See eye to eye.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
You're still trying.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
I guess I am.
But, truth be told, I rememberyou saying it a lot, like I
don't even know.
It could be a week that I goneby, or even three weeks that I
gone by, and you would say to me, although there's not a day
that goes by without we don'targue or disagree with each
other, and I always used tothink, well, yeah, that's a
relationship Like that's whatpeople do in relationships.
(09:08):
And here we are years later, inlots of hard work, focused,
dedicated hard work, onimproving our relationship later
and I think back and like, okay, well, that may be what a
relationship's about.
But now I see how, with again alot of effort in a dedicated
(09:32):
partner and the ability,speaking for myself, my ability
to realize that, boy, it was Imaking some clear mistakes and I
should have been doing thingsbetter, that things could be so
much better.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
You just said that a relationship is about arguing.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah, like I guess what I'm trying to say is
everybody disagrees and arguesin a relationship.
If I look at my model my momand dad they argued all the time
and they loved each other morefierce than anyone I'd ever been
around.
But they argue to this day.
Argue all the time, bicker allthe time, but they love each
(10:10):
other, right?
Am I wrong about?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
that.
No, it's 100% true.
It is remarkable that they arestill like a happily married
couple, because I could not, andthat's where we, I think, come
into.
I think it's interesting thatyou said well, that's just how a
relationship is, because thatwas your model and the arguing
(10:32):
was my model too, but my modelwas more quiet arguing there was
.
When there was arguing, it wasyelling and loud, but it was
more about shoving things underthe rug.
So you and I are coming and Idon't really think about this
much when we are talking aboutarguments or a conflict
resolution and I should, becauseyou are what you've seen Like
(10:58):
that was our only models.
That's how we learned how toresolve conflict.
We either run away from it orwe go at it head on, or we go
out at loud or we shrink away,or.
I think it's just reallyinteresting to think about.
That's how we came into ourrelationship.
So everybody comes in withtheir own blueprint of what
conflict resolution should looklike and most often I imagine,
(11:22):
just like with us, it's going toclash heavily yeah, heavily,
because you tend to come outarguments in a much more, in a
bigger way, like you get loud,you kind of get bigger, like
you'll stand up, you know, orpace around.
I tend to come at them and I'mnot saying I don't yell or I do
(11:42):
certainly.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
You definitely have your moments.
Of course I do, which I'mcomplimenting you on that.
I mean you definitely have.
You're complimenting me.
I'm complimenting, I meanyou're talking about me being
bigger.
I'm like dang man.
I've witnessed Tammy.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
I've lost my crap.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Godzilla Tammy, which is I mean, it's a compliment, I
say that.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Wow, you just threw me in.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
No, no, no, I elevated you is what I did.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yes, I do get big and loud, but what usually happens
is that has an expiration and ittends to be fairly quick, and I
will, instead of continuing onwith that whereas you can go on
with that for a really long timeI will just shut down.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, that's, true, and get quiet.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
But anyway, it's interesting to think about
yourselves as a couple and howyou both approach conflict and
how those have been guided bythe people in your life, and
what adjustments do you need tomake so that it works good for
your current relationship.
Then you and I have done that.
We've obviously learned verymuch through the hard way,
(12:49):
through this cycle of conflictthat we were in.
So let's talk about some ofthese mistakes we made.
The first one I wanna talkabout is one of the biggest
mistakes that we've made inarguments and, of course, all of
these we still do sometimes,but we are way better at this.
The first one is using blame.
Blame can be incredibly damagingto relationship and what you
(13:12):
and I have learned is that itreally doesn't have a place in
an argument and it doesn't havea place in our marriage.
It can be very toxic.
It's not a path to resolving anargument.
We've certainly learned thatAll it tends to do is perpetuate
it.
Blame can make a partner feelsmall, unloved, unheard and
(13:33):
attacked, which can affect asense of trust in the
relationship.
It can be abusive if constantlyused without checking.
I think one of the reasons whyour arguing just kept going and
going and going is because wewere not just in a circle of
conflict, we were in a circle ofblame.
Every argument we had, I feel,was trying to point fingers at
(13:56):
the other person about how theydid it wrong.
I was trying to constantly showyou how you were doing
something wrong and it was yourfault and I felt a hundred
percent justified in doing that.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Totally agree with you.
I mean I'm I mean it was yourfault.
Every time it absolutely.
You know we're being real here.
I mean I think about this allthe time, about how did we
become so wise as time's gone on?
I'm like I I can't argue withyou and I literally think this
is all your fault.
I Physically can't do thatanymore and I know at one point
(14:32):
I did like how dare you questionme?
It's not even the way I thinkanymore and I hope I don't do
that anymore.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
No, I think that the reason we are where we are is
because, along the way, we bothdecided that we each had work to
do and we were willing toFigure out that work and do the
work.
We were willing to take reallyhard looks at ourselves, and
(15:05):
that's where the wisdom began tostart.
We saw that we are making ourown mistakes, we are
contributing to where thisrelationship is at and it's not
in a good place, and that's whatstarted it all.
And now, because we've beendoing that for so many years,
being able to step back and lookat ourselves feels like second
(15:26):
nature.
It's not easy, but it'ssomething we always do.
Always we can get in an argument, step out or I step out, or
whatever happens, and then 10,15 minutes or whatever we're
like, dang it.
What did I do to contribute tothat?
This is where theaccountability piece comes in,
and if you are in a cycle of ofconflict and if you are an
(15:46):
encycl of blame, the best placeto start is to work on being
accountable.
I'll always promote working onyourself first and foremost, and
the reason that is is because,if you point your, when you
pointed the finger at me, thefirst thing I wanted to do Was
fight my side.
Yeah if I point the finger atyou, you're gonna want to fight
(16:08):
your side, you're gonna want toprove me wrong, and Somewhere
along the way I realized that'snot working.
That's not working.
So instead of pointing it atyou, I'm.
My job needs to become pointingit at myself and Beginning to
analyze what am I doing, becauseI can't control you.
I can control myself, and Ineed to start working on having
(16:32):
better tools to navigate thesearguments.
I need to start doing a betterjob and I feel like and you can
correct me if I'm wrong, but Ifeel like that Transitions
started with me.
We talk about it all the timehow I kind of had this epiphany
about account accountabilityafter talking with a friend of
mine and I decided I wanted towork on accountability because
(16:54):
we were just so stuck in thisugliness and when I started
doing the, that work within ourarguments, you, we both started
seeing improvement and Then,through that, you were like,
okay, I need to start doing thistoo.
She's working hard at it, I cansee it's helping.
I need to do the same thing.
And Then together we wereworking on it and we were
(17:16):
improving, and that's what setsus apart, I think, from a lot of
other couples who I hear fromis that you have to both be
willing to do the work.
You have to both be willing tosee that you yourself have a lot
of work to do.
Quit looking at what yourpartner has to do and I'm not
saying I'm not saying to letthem just get away with all
(17:37):
their negative behaviors.
I'm not saying that at all.
What I'm saying is the firstplace to look is that yourself.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
You're absolutely right.
That is exactly where itstarted.
Think about this.
We would add the argument, andour typical is you said this and
then your response wasn't whatit typically was, which is and
you're this and you're that itwas.
Yeah, I see how my actionscould have contributed to that
problem.
Can you imagine if your spousewere to do that in an argument?
(18:07):
Talk about disarming andCompletely having you reevaluate
what you're about to becauseyou're ready to go on the
defense, but when you stop thatand when you turn around and
take it and I'm not saying to,I'm not saying to take the
argument, but when you becomeaccountable, for your own part
and for your own mistakes,because in every argument, every
(18:29):
argument, I have at least asmall role in it.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
When you, when you do that, itbecomes a very, very different
discussion.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, and what happened?
Is you naturally started to dothe same thing?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah, it totally Shifts the environment to where
now?
Speaker 1 (18:46):
without, without me even saying hey, you need to be
accountable to all, I'm beingaccountable, you need to be too.
I never said that exactly wasjust a natural Response from me,
kind of leading by example as Iwas learning myself.
It was just kind of yournatural Response to that example
.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah, and I again, I don't want people to think that
we don't argue.
You said in the very beginningwe do have disagreements, we
don't argue, but nothing likebefore.
And and I think this I don'tknow what the other three things
are you're about to say, butthis is definitely the biggest
one for me.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Well, you were talking about the next thing,
and the next thing is what leadsdirectly from blame, and you've
already used the word, which isdefensive defensive, yes,
defensive defensiveness.
Yes, being defensive, defensivewas a huge mistake in our
marriage.
Dr John Gottman, who's amarriage researcher and can
predict the probability ofdivorce and newlyweds within
(19:40):
just a few minutes of seeingthem interact with each other,
calls defensiveness one of thefour horsemen of the apocalypse
of marriage.
When we feel accused, we feelthe need to defend and fight
back.
You point the finger, I'm gonnafight my side.
The thing is Defensivedefensiveness.
That tactic is rarely effective.
Shocker, although it's reallynormal to feel defensive.
(20:05):
When you're attacked, of courseyou're gonna feel defensive.
It needs to be understood thatit's not an effective way to
resolve an argument.
Defensiveness perpetuates it.
And I feel like I have learnedthis so deeply in my core
because I remember all thoseyears ago I was in a time when
(20:25):
we fought Damn, you're sodefensive.
Why are you so defensive?
I can't even talk to you.
You're so defensive and I wouldbe like I'm not being defensive
.
I don't know what you'retalking about.
I'm not being defensive, I'mjust trying to show that my side
of it, you know, and I I don'tknow where along the way, but I
remember I just started thinkingOkay, he's telling me I'm being
(20:46):
defensive, there's got to besomething here.
So I really started payingattention To how I would start
to feel in an argument.
I started to look for thatdefensiveness and I got good at
being able to recognize it bydoing that.
I could then say oh, that'sthat defensiveness he's talking
(21:08):
about.
I need to figure out how toshut that defensiveness down,
because what you would tell meis I can't even talk to you,
you're being so defensive,you're not listening to me,
you're being so defensive.
And you were 100% right,because all I was doing in my
brain was like planning mydefense Right.
That doesn't make for a verygood listener.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
We're both guilty of this.
Really, we're both 100% guilty,and I feel like we do a much,
much better job with blame.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
I don't feel like it really enters our arguments
anymore.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
No, absolutely, I totally agree with you,
defensive this.
I feel like it's hidden backthere and then suddenly one of
us says something and it justjumps up and it grabs us,
sometimes Because it's a verynatural response.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I think If you're feeling attacked by somebody,
you're going to feel defensiveand that's 100% OK.
It's fine to feel that way.
The problem comes when it thenaffects how you can navigate
conflict, and that's what it wasdoing.
It didn't allow me to hear youin any way.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
I feel like for both of us, when we each say to each
other you're being defensive,it's an immediately knee jerk
react no, we're not.
And then, when that's said, Ifeel like, oh crap, that's a
definite sign that I'm beingdefensive.
Do you say that to me and myknee jerk is like no, I'm not.
You're like oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
I am yeah, and I would caution against using
you're being defensive, becausethat is kind of blame.
But I feel like for you and I,because we've done so much work,
it is something important forus to say to each other, and
when you say it, then I have tothen look at myself.
I think it.
For us it can be utilized as atool, whereas other people, if
(22:53):
you haven't done that work, Iwould caution against saying
you're being defensive, becausethat is not going to have the
response that you want it tohave.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
I would never go at you and say, timmy, you're just
being defensive.
That's just not the way wecommunicate.
I mean, sweetheart, I need youto just hear this, hear it
gently that you're being alittle defensive and we're not
really getting to the core ofwhat we're talking about.
Yeah, yeah, so you're right.
We don't say to each other as ameans, accusation, accusation.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Right, it's more of an awareness thing.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Government says the antidote to it defensiveness is
accountability, and we've talkedabout accountability.
That means really hearing yourpartner's concern and owning up
to your partner, just as we'vetalked about before.
Even if it's only a small part,the key for me and being able
to move through defensivenessand move through blame was being
able to look and point outsomething that I've done to
(23:49):
contribute to that argument,even if it was the tiniest
little thing, like I spoke in away I shouldn't have, or I
raised my voice or I wasdefensive.
Whatever I can own up to, ourwillingness to acknowledge that
we may actually be at fault orpartially at fault is really the
way out, and this is whatGottman said and how.
(24:10):
He's find remarkable is, whenwe were going through this, I
had no idea who, john Gottman-was.
I didn't know who all thesemarriage people were.
Somehow this stuff justhappened.
And then, way after I startedmy blog and I'd start doing all
this research into deep researchinto these marriage people, and
I'd see these things oh my gosh, accountability it's that word.
(24:31):
We've been saying that word forso long.
That changed our marriage, andthis is an example right here.
Our willingness to acknowledgethat we may actually be at fault
or partially at fault is reallythe way out.
It was 100% our way out.
100%.
It is still our way out.
If I can just look at myselfinstead of pointing it at you,
(24:54):
we will eventually find our wayout of it.
I'm not saying that I'm 100% atfault and I've got to own up to
everything and it's all myresponsibility.
I don't want that to ever beinterpreted that way, because
sometimes it is.
That's not what I mean.
But my job in this relationshipis to analyze the way I am
approaching conversations, theway I'm approaching conflict, my
(25:18):
role in this relationship, andam I doing a good job at it.
If I'm more focused on you,you're never going to be able to
find your way to a middleground.
It's just always going to be afight.
If you could just switch it on.
You look within yourself, doyour own work and ideally and
(25:40):
hopefully that has a rippleeffect in your marriage that
your spouse will then in turn dothe same.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
You need to snip that part out right there, because
I'm not kidding.
That is beautifully said.
You're not talking aboutchanging a person.
You're not talking about fixinga person.
You're literally talking into,you're pointing the finger right
back at you which is the thingyou said in the very beginning
and you're being accountable foryour own actions, your own
changes, your own fixes, inorder to basically get the life,
(26:07):
have the life you truly wantand, like you always say, having
a partner who's willing to godown that journey with you.
Be accountable with you, makethese changes with you.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Internally, the external appears At least it has
in our case and many otherpeople that Right and you may
not have a partner who iswilling to take that journey
with you, who's willing to dothat in our work.
For me, it's knowing that I didliterally everything I felt I
(26:40):
could do to be the best partner,the best version of myself that
I could be, if your partner isnot, in turn, doing that.
I posted something about thistoday because the hard facts is,
you cannot change your spouse.
So many people reach out, aretelling me all the things that
their spouse is doing andthey're incredibly disrespectful
(27:01):
, incredibly hurtful, sometimesemotionally abusive or verbally
abusive, and they're asking mewhat do I do?
How do I change them?
And the truth, the hard truth,is you're not gonna, you're not
gonna be able to.
I can't, I couldn't change you.
That was one of the biggestrealizations I ever had.
I can't change you.
You luckily changed you and did.
(27:24):
I influenced you by my living,by me trying to work on myself,
by me doing that work.
I influenced you.
You have to be willing to makethose changes for yourself and
many people just they're sittingaround waiting for their spouse
to change and they're puttingup with incredibly disrespectful
(27:45):
behaviors.
I just want so bad for peopleto hear that they can't force
change.
The question is can I change myspouse or how can I change my
spouse?
The question is, if you don'thave a partner who's willing to
go on this ride with you andwilling to step up and do their
work, the question is is thatthe right person for you?
And that's the hard questionthat I feel like sometimes we
(28:08):
tiptoe around, but it's thetruth Are they the right person
for you?
I don't believe that everycouple that gets married is
meant to be married or the rightmatch for each other.
The reason we were able to bewhere we are is because we were
able to take the ride together,because we were each willing to
put in the internal work thatneeds to be done.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
For sure yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
One of the other mistakes we made and I think,
one that I feel like we stillneed to work on in a healthier
way rather than in an angry way,is taking a break, is learning
how and when to take a break,and understanding that it's
inevitable that some argumentsare going to get heated ours
(28:54):
still do and we may findourselves boiling and kind of
seeing red and able to get aclear thought, but if we find
ourselves going in circles ornotice that feeling of getting
too heated, it's okay to ask fora break.
Taking a break from an argumentcan be a really helpful
strategy in conflict management,and I feel like this is
something that we're not greatat doing, because sometimes our
(29:18):
break looks like just walkingaway.
If I walk away which I tend tobe the one that does the walking
away I wasn't going to pointyour fingers or make any bling.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I'm owning that, 100% owning that.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
I tend to be the one that walks away, and when I do
that, it freaks you out and whatI think is happening and I'm
just now kind of processing thisis I think that taps into your
feelings of fear, of abandonment, because I'm just walking away
and you don't know what theheck's going on.
So then you get like loud andangry.
And then I get angry thatyou're yelling and you're loud.
(29:49):
But if we could handle it in away where it's like hey, it's
getting heated right now I'mseeing red, I'm boiling.
Let's just take a 15 minutebreak.
Let's come back in 15 minutesand let's re-approach.
That's such a healthier way todo it.
Do we take breaks?
Yes, do we come back afterthose breaks?
(30:10):
100%, the break doesn't meanyou get to then forget about the
argument and ignore it and moveon with your life.
No, it's agreeing to a time andit's agreeing to come back
whenever that's going to be andre-approach the discussion.
Sometimes for me that meansovernight.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, I love it how you've always gone against the
grain.
You've always scoffed at thephrase of never go to bed angry
and you always kind of laugh atit.
Anytime it's in a movie,anytime it shows up, you're like
yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Well, for some people that works great, but for me it
doesn't.
Because if we are late into thenight having an argument, I get
to the point where I cannotthink or function and I get so
tired and overwhelmed by thatfatigue that I can't function
enough to find myself to resolvean argument.
I do much better when I getsleep.
(31:04):
I'll always, always, can comethe next morning in a completely
different mindset, ready totackle whatever that is, and we
may still go right back into theargument, but I am much more
ready to be able to handle thatin a healthier manner.
So I don't agree that everymarriage should have the saying
never go to bed angry.
(31:24):
Some it works great, for me itdoesn't.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
I feel like that whole stepping away is as much
as I don't like to do it.
I feel like it always serves uswell.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Always serves us well .
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah, I think one of the keys in when you are
stepping away is to make surethat that time is not utilized
to then build your case.
It should be really just take abreath, go distract yourself
with something else, justbreathe and then come back to it
with kind of a fresh mindsetrather than one that's been
ruminating.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
I can't think of a recent time when I mean, how
amazing is that.
I can't think of Any recentarguments where we've had to.
Well, I take it back, we hadone, the other night.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
We did have one.
There's waiting for you tobring it up.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
And that was the first time in a long time like
we, yeah.
I mean at least months, rightTim.
Yeah, I think and in ourargument was.
I didn't know what the argumentwas.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
I don't remember what it was about.
I remember how it was resolved,but I don't remember what it
was about and I remember sayingthis is stupid, why are we
fighting?
Speaker 2 (32:24):
and then what happened?
Something happened to where Ihad to like leave the room.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
So I think you chose to leave the room.
You were doing what we do andyou walked out that time.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
I just remember walking out, being in my office,
and you walking into my office,we embraced right away.
I just remember saying I'm sosorry, I'm so sorry that,
whatever I can't remember whatthe topic was you said the same
thing and it was done, you know.
And if we do.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
That's typically how they're resolved.
Now We'll have the argument.
Most often, one of us will takea break, usually not in the
healthiest way, so something weneed to work on, but it usually
doesn't take more than 10, 15minutes or something like that,
when either one of us is comingto the other and being
(33:15):
accountable, apologizing tosaying I love you, you know all
that kind of stuff, and we findour way to a quick resolve.
And the last mistake that we'vemade is Bringing up the past,
and this is one I don't think wedo too much of anymore, but it
used to be quite the pattern.
(33:37):
Bringing up the past during anargument can be a sure way of
leading to more arguments.
The truth is, we think we canrecall the past perfectly, but
bringing it up can be riddledwith errors and can cause
feelings of hurt, attack andfrustration.
One of my biggest pet peeves isyou Bringing up the past into
(34:01):
the argument, and one of thereasons it's Really frustrating
with for me and you know thisobviously is because I have a
terrible memory and you have anamazing memory.
So you will try to like recountsomething of a previous
argument or previous somethingand Say I said something or did
(34:23):
something and I literally willhave zero recollection and it
feels like I'm being trapped,you know, like you're trying to
trap me into something or catchme into something, and I can't
even Defend myself at allbecause I don't remember.
So I think it's.
It's never served us wellBringing up the past.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yeah, that's funny because I remember saying to you
a lot we should record ourconversation, we should record
our argument so that we coulddocument it.
We can remember what we'resaying letter later.
You Hated when I said that andthere's a couple times we're
actually hit record on that itjust makes me angry right now.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
So and can you just imagine Listeners, maybe your
partner does this Imagine you inlike the in like a heated
argument, like you're justyelling at each other and your
spouse hits record On the phoneor says I'm gonna record this,
or goes to pull out their phone,is trying to find them.
I mean, talk about taking anargument from like, let's say,
(35:31):
50 to 110.
That's the way to do it.
It was so Infuriating becausethat was your way of saying you
wanted to catch me doingsomething that you were trying
to prove me wrong at.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
I mean, yeah, but but not in that sense.
It was.
I mean, ultimately, yes, that's, that's correct, but it was
because of what you just said.
Sometimes you always said I'mnot gonna, I don't remember this
.
I mean, then we were likefighting in circles.
Speaker 1 (36:05):
That's what it see Like the army, about my memory
it was about that we would go incircles and you would be losing
your mind.
I would, and I'm like trying tolike catch me and being the
fault of it, like this is notwhat we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
You brought up something totally different.
No, I'm not, and then I wouldgo back to recount what we
started.
So I'm like let me record thisand I mean, that's just like you
said.
That took it to a whole newlevel, and so I don't recommend
anybody doing that pulling out arecording device and or
bringing up the past or bringingup the past.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Not in an argument.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
It's not the right time to bring it up in a current
argument, because then you'rejust gonna be arguing about what
the other Thing was about.
You're not focused on what thecurrent argument is.
You need to stay as focused asyou can, and I know you would
tell me all the time that thatwas something that was hard for
me to do, but trying to bepresent in that particular
argument is really important.
(37:03):
I'm not saying don't ever bringup the past, because yeah
there's plenty of things thatI'm sure need to be Healed or
managed or work through from thepast.
There's plenty of lessons to belearned from the past.
Just don't do it in the heat ofthe moment.
It's not gonna serve you at all.
Do it at another time.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, and you're right, we do very.
We don't do that anymore.
I don't see that happening.
We know that doesn't?
That's like a Quick sand really.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Exactly the.
So those are the four mistakeswe made in arguments.
We've made many, many more andI'm sure we will make many more
in the future.
But these are some good thingsto really kind of hold as tools
for you to utilize In yourconflict.
And if, the more you canpractice I'm telling you the
first times it'll be terribleand don't try them all at once,
(37:51):
you know, say to yourself, okay,I'm gonna work on being, I'm
gonna work on not using blame inthis argument.
Don't try to do them all atonce.
Take one and really work on itand kind of hone it and get good
at it and Then bring in anotherone.
And bring in another one.
And the more you can practice,the better and better and better
it's gonna be.
Trust me, when I first startedtrying to recognize
(38:14):
defensiveness, it was so hardfor me to see it, so hard.
But I just kept trying.
I kept listening to you, I kepttrying to pay attention to how
I felt, paying attention to whatI said, and I got better and
better at it.
And now I see it almostimmediately in Myself.
I can see it right away.
So just keep practicing, keepdoing it.
(38:36):
You'll get better and betterand better.
Don't give up.
You can do this.
And If you're really reallystuck in just a cycle of
argument, cycle of conflict thatyou cannot find your way out of
, no matter what you do, Istrongly recommend you finding a
therapist, a counselor, thatcan help the two of you Gain
some tools so that you canbetter navigate these conflicts,
(38:57):
because conflicts will takeyour marriage down.
You got to find your way out,so find help If.
If you need to, don't hesitateto do that.
All right, baby, thanks forgoing down a memory lane with me
.
It had some, had some, what doyou call them?
It had some Potholes, yes, butthat's okay.
(39:20):
That's okay.
We're not perfect.
No I still have a lot to learn.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
No, you know what I love doing this, though, because
it especially a topic like this, because it is, it's not
something we yeah, we definitelylearned from it, and we've
there's few of these that werebetter at, but there's still
things that we I mean it's stillgreat reminder for the next
time we do have an argument toremember.
Oh yeah, yeah, I gotta stopbeing a little defensive or
recognize or we need a time out.
(39:45):
You know, yeah, like you need tosay it out loud like, yeah, we
always do better when we taketime, but I've never been one to
volunteer right, right, yeah,next time it's your turn.
I will report back.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Thank you so much for listening.
I hope everybody has a greatday and we'll talk to you next
time on the married and nakedpodcast.
Bye, everybody.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.