Ever wondered how a background in IT could transform the world of interior design? This episode of The Designer Within Podcast with John McClain promises an engaging exploration of career transitions with our inspiring guest, Sarah Wilson, the owner and principal designer of Chansaerae Designs. Sarah’s incredible journey from the structured environment of IT to the creative realm of interior design is a must-hear.
She openly shares her experiences of returning to design school as an adult, leveraging her technical skills to streamline her business operations, and taking bold creative risks that set her apart in the industry. We explore how she aligns with clients to bring their wildest design dreams to life while staying true to their personal identity.
Our conversation dives into the unexpected ways previous career skills can enhance new ventures. Sarah’s story is a testament to leveraging past experiences for success in interior design, offering a unique perspective on the importance of formal education, practical industry knowledge, and the value of attending market events. Together, John McClain and Sarah discuss the significant influence of personal and cultural backgrounds on design aesthetics, enriching the creative process with distinctive styles.
The latter part of our episode tackles the often tricky subject of pricing transparency and client communication in the design industry. We share candid insights on managing client expectations, the
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You said have you really done your job as a
designer if you don't designsomething for your client that
is outside of the expectationsthat they had for the project?
So tell me what you meant bythat.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Basically, they saw another designer's design and
wanted me to recreate it right,and I just said to myself I
don't want people to know whatit is I'm designing for them,
because if that's the case, theycould just do it themselves,
and then I become the sourcingperson.
What I want is a design that,while it's true to who they are,
(00:31):
I want it to blow their mind.
I want them to be like I neverwould have thought about this,
but this is so amazing.
I even want there to be alittle bit of sometimes
convincing that I have to do toget them outside of the box of
design that they've placedthemselves in.
And when it's done, they'realways like.
My friends came over here.
(00:52):
They couldn't believe it.
They were like it looks likeyou, but I know you could have
never done this, and that's theexperience I want to live them.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Hey all you're listening to the designer within
podcast, episode number 48.
I'm john McLean and welcome tothe Designer Within Podcast,
episode number 48.
I'm John McClain and welcome tothe Designer Within Podcast,
the business-minded podcastcreated for creative
entrepreneurs by a creativeentrepreneur.
That's me.
I know firsthand the challenges, but also the victories that
(01:20):
can come with our careers, andI'm here to sip and spill the
tea with you.
It's time to dive deep withinyourself and redesign your own
business and your life from theinside out.
Together, we will uncoversecrets and share valuable
insights.
So prepare for a transformativeexperience, my friends, because
it's time to unleash thedesigner within.
(01:42):
Hey everybody, welcome back toanother episode of the designer
within.
How the heck.
Welcome back to another episodeof the designer within.
How the heck are you?
Can you believe it is summer?
It feels so weird to say thatit's already June.
It's already like almost themiddle of June, which even feels
stranger.
I don't know if any of you aregoing to be at Las Vegas market,
but that will be the next bigmarket that is upcoming that I
(02:04):
will be at.
So I will be there in July.
At the end of July, I will beon some panels and I will be
hosting the awards as well.
So some fun things there.
I will keep you posted on thatand I hope your summer is off to
a great, great start.
I'm assuming the kids are outof school by now in most areas.
It's so hard to keep track ofthat now that I'm not around my
(02:27):
nieces and nephews as much as Iused to be, but I am doing well
and really excited about today'sepisode.
Today I have Sarah Wilson on thepodcast.
Sarah is the owner andprincipal designer of Chancere
Designs and you are going tolove Sarah Wilson.
If you've heard a lot of recentguests on my podcast that I met
(02:48):
at Luann Live I'm speakingabout Luann Nigara, of course,
and last fall in Orlando she hadwhat she calls Luann Live and I
was one of the speakers at theevent and at that event I met so
many wonderful, wonderfulpeople.
Once again, sarah is one ofthose wonderful people and we
just clicked right away and Ijust love her.
(03:08):
I love her energy, I love herphilosophy and she's just really
, really good at her job,frankly, and you're going to
love this interview.
We tell her so many things inthis conversation.
We talk about why she lovesdesign, her former career, how
she sort of meandered, if youwill, into design from what she
did before, and the fact thatshe really didn't hate her
(03:31):
previous job.
She just wanted to do somethingthat fulfilled her even more,
and I think that is such animportant caveat, because a lot
of the time, many of us are likeno, no, no, I hate this, I hate
this, I hate this.
That really wasn't the casewith Sarah.
She just was ready for a changeand she wanted to fulfill
herself creatively, and shetalks about how she did that,
and she really talks about howshe brought her former life in
(03:55):
IT over to design and how sheworks that into her business to
not only make her business runsmoother but, as she says, it
saves her a lot of money and alot of time, which I love.
Sarah is also going to sharewith you her journey of going
back to school, back to designschool, to get her degree in
design as an adult, which I didas well, and it's an interesting
(04:15):
journey to hear that.
If you did that, you knowexactly how that might feel
going back to school with someyounger kids in the classroom,
but it is an interestingperspective that Sarah has on
that.
We also talked about some ofSarah's business practices.
We discussed her agreement.
We talked about her consultation, how she finds the right
clients and how she really wantsto make sure that her clients
(04:39):
are aligned with her and arelooking for the same thing
creatively and are willing totake some risks and let Sarah
really show her clients what shecan bring to the table as a
designer and try to push thoseboundaries.
Sarah is just a breath of freshair.
You're going to love thisconversation.
You're going to learn a lotfrom this conversation, so put
(05:00):
those earbuds in and enjoy mychat with Sarah Wilson of
Chancery Design.
Sarah, I want to welcome you tothe Designer Within podcast.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Hi, how are you?
I'm so excited to be here withyou.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I am so good, I'm so happy to have you here.
I think you and I just have ourown private podcast when we see
each other in settings outsideof a recording, so we were both
just like why don't we just turnthe microphone on and actually
record something Exactly exactly.
So, as usual, I've given mylittle bio about you, which is
(05:36):
the more professional version.
I always like for my guests togive a bit more personalized
version, because you do have areally interesting background
and an interesting way that yousort of meandered your way, like
most of us do, into interiordesign.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
So tell me about that .
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Tell everyone listening about how you did that
, and it is a second career foryou as well.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I would almost dare say it's a third career for me
because I actually I love design.
I've always designed my ownhome and always really thought
to myself like I wonder ifthere's a career here.
I wonder how I could transitionto doing it in business for
someone else.
Because you know, when you doit for yourself, like the time
(06:19):
is free, you're meandering,you're finding things, you're
putting it together a little bitmore slowly.
But my mom actually had anupholstery shop when I was young
and always redid our home.
She sews.
We were always in dresses,their drapes, everything.
Our house was already alwayswell-dressed, so it comes as a
second language to me.
When I went to college I got adegree in graphics.
(06:41):
I did that for a while and thenI decided like I think I want
to try to get into interiordesign.
So I went back to school for mybachelor's and actually got an
individualized degree where Iwas taking a lot of art classes,
some architecture classes.
I did furniture design,carpentry class, like I really
just explored.
(07:01):
But at that time, once Igraduated, I found that there
weren't many schools who areaccepting non-interior design
degree people for a master's.
Because that's what I wanted todo.
I just wanted to go get amaster's degree.
So I had my son and I justthought to myself like I really
want to give this kid the world.
I'm really great at computers.
What can I do in that arenathat will pay well, so I never
(07:25):
have to tell him no to anythingthat he wants.
And so I got an IT degree and Idid that for about 10 years and
I was fine with it, because I'man introvert and at the time I
was working in a silo, just mein a desk and not necessarily
interacting so much offline.
And then here comes Scrum, herecomes Agile.
(07:48):
You're in meetings all day,just chat, chat, chatting, and
at the end of the day I was justso tired and I'm traveling to
and from work two hours each waybecause I lived in California
and I just got to a point whereI'm like I think I'm going to
have a nervous breakdown, likethis is like so much and I'm
saying that in all seriousnesslike it was just becoming a lot
(08:11):
for me.
And I was coming up on thevesting of my retirement fund
and I'm like, hey, here's anidea.
I can go back to school, I canuse my retirement fund to live
while I'm in school and then Ican just transition, and so
that's exactly what I did.
I found a program at FITM, whichis the Fashion Institute of
(08:32):
Design and Merchandising in LA,for people who already had a
degree.
It didn't have to be interiordesign, and so I would only be
taking about one year's worth ofclass to be done, and it
actually was less because I hadtaken all those classes for the
individualized degree.
So I got to remove a lot ofthings.
So I went.
I had a really great time.
(08:53):
The program was excellent.
The chairperson was older likeme, and so you know we could
talk more like on a colleaguelevel than you know student to
professor.
And at the end of my time thereshe recommended me to this
program.
It's called Chairing Styles andit's a program where there is a
(09:13):
textile designer that designs atextile, a fashion designer who
has to make a gown out of thetextile, and then a furniture
interior designer would design achair using the fabric, and so
there were 10 of us whoparticipated in that, and that
was actually the first time Iwent to market, because I don't
know if you remember, lori andKelly had that design camp
(09:36):
interior design camp, yes.
So they invited us, the 10 ofus, to come and participate in
interior design camp.
And so we went to Las Vegasmarket.
We did the camp, we walkedaround the market and I was like
, yes, oh my god, yes it justlike sat, yeah, it sat in my
soul like this is what I've beenwaiting for, and so we did the
(09:57):
show.
Then, when I left school, Ialready knew I didn't want to
work for someone.
I knew I wanted to go out on myown, but I did kind of want to
have an idea of how business wasbeing run.
So I worked for someone forfour months before launching out
into the greater stratosphere.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Oh, that's smart.
Now, gosh, okay, there's somuch there, because I feel like
a lot of people did that pathand I did too.
So you had your mom and you hadthis sort of love for fabrics
and all those things.
So it was in you, right, it wasinstilled in you.
When you say that you hadburnout and sort of you know
these issues sort of bubbling tothe surface in your IT world,
(10:37):
were they always there?
And you sort of just keptshoving them down?
Because I'm wondering if peoplelistening might be thinking the
same thing.
Maybe they're in a career thatthey're like oh I really want to
do interior design and I don'tknow how to do it, and maybe
they're trying to recognizethose signals.
But was it always there or didit come later on?
And then you just sort of justkept pushing it, pushing it,
pushing it.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
No, I actually think that it was always there because
, number one, I'm terrible atnine to five.
Always there Because, numberone, I'm terrible at nine to
five.
Like I feel like it's difficultfor creativity to be put into a
box of time, and so that's onething, and then it just was, I
don't know like.
I think the rigidity was wasthe main thing, and then just
(11:18):
being over people every singleday.
So I know that there werenights I would just be lying in
bed and being like Lord.
I know there has to be anotherway to live, because this just
doesn't flow with who I think Iam as a person.
You know there's some people wholove, they love going to work,
they love the structure, but I'mnot, I'm not and I've never
been that person.
(11:39):
And so, yeah, it was there fora while and I was pushing it
down Cause, like I said, I was asingle mom.
My kid needs to eat.
I don't have the luxury of,just, you know, going off into
whatever.
And so it was there for a longtime and I was just seeking,
like, different solutions of howcan I extract myself but still
(11:59):
afford life.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, what were you doing to get the outlet for
design?
Were you just doing things foryourself, for friends, for
family around?
I mean I?
I was just like, oh, anythingaround my house, I would do it.
Anything around my house, youor my mom or my friend.
I'm like what do you need?
Okay, I'm there.
Were you doing the same thing?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
That's exactly me.
I tell people all the time likeif I move into an apartment,
guaranteed I'm not even thinkingabout getting my security
deposit back because I'm goingto paint, I'm going to put stuff
up on the wall, I'm going to doall the things because I live
here and I want to feel like Ilive here.
So, yeah, everybody who knowsme knows my college roommates
(12:37):
would call me like hey, I justbought my condo, can you help me
?
And I would do it.
So yeah, always.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, creativity always finds an outlet, it
always finds a way to get to thesurface.
And I agree with you.
I think that most people start,you know, those first careers
just because of necessity orbecause of a quote unquote have
to, like, you know, I did itbecause the world said, oh, you
have to do a business degree.
So I was like, well, I don'twant to do that, have to do a
business degree.
So I was like, well, I don'twant to do that.
(13:05):
Well, the world says you had to.
So I did.
And then I was like I hatedevery minute of it.
And then I still wanted to dothe creativity.
And then some people do it outof necessity.
But I'm telling you, your trueself finds its way to the
surface and then, when it doeswhat happens, you literally
excel.
And when you are your true self, you shine in ways that you
probably, I'm sure you nevershined the way that you do now
when you were doing IT.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, I wouldn't say that.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And the only reason I wouldn't say that is because I
don't mean as a human being, Imean as your talent.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
No, no, no.
So what I'm saying is like alot of the procedure that I used
when I was in IT.
I'm really great at computers,so I'm actually really great at
computers, so a lot of what Itook from IT, the structure I do
, I use it in interior designand I think it's to my benefit,
because a lot of people are verycreative but they don't have a
(13:52):
process to their creativity, andso that was one thing I will
say.
I was amazing in my IT career,and I'm not even kidding, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
I believe you.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
So what I did was tested software and in my time
testing software I found so manybugs that no one had found
previously.
Nothing new was ever introduced.
I learned how to do automatedtesting.
I was amazing at it but it justlike I said, once they brought
in like the whole structure ofpeople all day, meetings, all
day.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I was done yeah, no, I agree with you there and you
just hit on something that Iwanted to to touch on later and
we might as well talk about itnow.
But it is that set of skillsthat you will bring from one
thing to the other.
I call it the sliding scale ofskills, where it's like you just
slide that scale until you findthat skill set that you bring
from whatever part of your lifethat you want to apply now and
(14:43):
and you do you can and you willfind things that you're like I'm
never going to use that from aformer career and, just like you
said, you look back now and youprobably maybe you didn't know
that you were bringing thingsfrom it into design, but you're
probably seeing it throughprocesses in other ways.
But how specifically have youfound and I and I think other
people might be again lookingfor insight and things like that
to help them but howspecifically have you found and
I think other people might beagain looking for insight and
(15:04):
things like that to help themout but how specifically have
you found?
Is it just the structure of it?
Is it just the processes?
And maybe it's just being moreclear cut, because I know in IT
you guys are very straight tothe point there's no beating
around the bush with you ITpeople Right?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Well, number one, I did my own website.
I didn't have to hire someoneto do it so, and I maintain all
of the stuff behind the scenes.
But the main thing that Inoticed.
So for my firm I use StudioDesigner and the way Studio
Designer flows is the same waythat my software flowed.
Like you got to dump a bunch ofdata up front and it kind of
(15:42):
just like flows to every module.
So a bunch of test data, then Ihave these tests that I'm
running, then it gets theresults, then I report.
Studio is the same, like I putin all of the items, then you
know it's paid for.
I put in all of that stuff.
The only part of Studio I wouldsay that I am not so great at is
the finances, and that's why Ihave my sister to do it for me.
(16:04):
But yeah, like the software.
Just a lot of people are like,oh, it's too structured, I can't
figure it out.
But for me I was like, oh, thisis the cadence of how I'm used
to working, and so what?
Nine years in business and I'vealways used it no-transcript
(16:51):
system that makes more sense tothem.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
It's just like what clicks with you right?
What's?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
clicking with you.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And then that's the way to go with it.
My next question is I guessit's more of a statement really
but what did you find Cause?
here's how I did when I wentback to school later as well for
design, when I went back, Ifound that I was there for a
purpose and I and there was alot of young kids there trust me
and I was like, get out of myway.
Like daddy's in the house, I'mhere to learn.
Like don't be silly, Don't be,I'm not going out to park, this
(17:19):
is not about partying for meright literally like were you
there for the same reason whereyou're just like no, I'm same,
no same thing.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
I'm like you guys parents maybe have money to be
messing around you're likemissing class.
I'm like assignment on.
I'm in the evening, I'm doingmy work, I'm turning it in, I'm
getting A's like what do youhave to teach me?
I'm ready to soak it in, likeLike give it to me, give it all
to me.
I love it For sure, for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
So you found the benefit in going back to get
this education right, because Iknow a lot of people don't
necessarily have a quote-unquoteformal education with design.
What other benefits did youfind For someone who might again
, I love people who can listento stories like yours and say,
oh, this might be something thatI want to follow, a path that I
want to follow what otherbenefits did you find
specifically for going back toget a formal education, versus
(18:11):
just someone who said, oh, I'mgoing to hang my shingle because
I love design, which there's noright or wrong in either one of
those of course, right, you'reright, right.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
um, I think mainly the thing that was good for me
was having the ability to talkto professionals who were
already deep in their careerpaths and say to them like no,
really.
Like, how does this work?
Like, what showrooms can I goto?
Like, when you go to market,what are you looking for?
Like, I was uber focused ongraduating with tools to
(18:41):
transition into my business, soI wasn't necessarily having like
chatty conversations.
I was pulling all industryknowledge I could get from my
professors and because I was ofa similar age to them, they were
open with talking to me abouteverything.
Like our last business class, Icame out of that class with my
resale license.
(19:01):
I had opened accounts at thePDC.
Like I was ready at the end ofthat.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Sarah is not playing.
I bet your notebook was.
I bet it was so thick of notesfrom class.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Absolutely.
The first time we went tomarket, I was the only one with
a buyer's badge because I had myresale license and I had gone
on and registered and they werelike oh no, you can't come into
the showroom, but they were likeoh you, you can go, you have
the buyer's badge Look down, I'mready.
Yeah, I was like this is a oncein a lifetime opportunity and
I'm going to take it for allit's worth.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
And you did and you jumped in.
Now you mentioned that youworked for someone else for
around four months or so whenyou went out into the actual
design world.
What were you hoping to gainfrom that?
Was it just experience ofseeing how a firm was operating?
Was it watching someone else inthe throes of a design firm?
What were you hoping to get,and did you get what you were
looking for when you did?
Speaker 2 (19:53):
that I was.
I definitely got what I waslooking for.
I was mainly looking for, like,presentation of pricing.
How are you presenting to yourclients, how are you deciding
what things cost?
Like, what is your markup, ifanything?
Like, what kind ofpresentations are you putting
together for people?
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Let me guess the things they didn't teach you in
school, right?
Maybe, perhaps Right.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Definitely with the pricing.
Like you know, school is voidof pricing.
They're like design, whatever.
And also I wanted to learninteracting with trades.
They definitely don't teach youthat in design school.
I want to know okay, like Ihave an idea, who do I get to
make it?
How do I find trades that I cantrust, Just all of those types
of things.
And four months was enough forme to get.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Wow, okay, I did the same and mine was about two
years, two and a half years, Iwould say.
When I did it, did you learnmaybe some things not to do?
Just curious during that time.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Absolutely.
Then you're like no.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Sarah will not bring this into her business.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Okay, treated her trades terribly and she was
constantly having to replacethem because, just, it was poor
treatment.
And so the thing that I learnedis to cherish good trades when
you find them, and treat themlike the people that they are,
because, literally, I could haveall of the brilliant ideas in
the world, and if I don't find atrade to execute them in the
(21:19):
manner that I want, it's useless.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I love that.
I love that.
So when you did decide to hangyour shingle and it's like it's
time to open up your firm, andhere we go, we're going in, did
you go in with a definitive planof you know cause?
You obviously love colorfuldesign, you love to bring color
in design.
Was it always that way and wasit always something that you
wanted to do?
Did you know, going in, did youhave this vision and you knew
(21:44):
exactly?
Okay, because talk to me moreabout that, because I know a lot
of designers and I really wishmore people would have a
definitive look, a definitiveoutreach on their design
business, because when we designfor everybody, we really design
for no one.
And then we get so watered down,I feel that we just lose who we
are.
I was at market recently and Iwas on a panel and someone in
(22:06):
the audience asked a questionand she said how do you find
vendors for all the clients whowant all these different styles?
And I said you don't.
You find the vendors forclients in your aesthetic.
She said no.
I love them all I said, itdoesn't matter, you have to stay
in your lane.
So I love that you did knowyour lane, but how did you get
that definitive answer rightaway, because I know a lot of
people still struggle with it.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Well, remember I said I've always been designing and
so I kind of just know what Ilean to.
And my mom and I my mom used tolive in Huntsville.
She retired, she lives in StLucia now but we used to go like
our thing to do was go to like,like Hancock fabric, joanne's
(22:46):
big upholstery shops and justlike, go through and look at the
fabric.
We weren't buying anything.
Sometimes we would, but wewould just go through and look
at the fabrics.
We would buy patterns, we wouldmake dresses.
So it's like I guess mybackground of fabric really like
and fabric can just change.
And plus, you know what I'mfrom the caribbean, like it's.
It's huge on color, like saintcroix, saint thomas they used to
(23:10):
be owned by the dutch and Idon't know if you're familiar
with dutch architecture, but itis bright, it's the pinks, it's
the yellows and the buildings indowntown are like, brightly
colored.
Same in Aruba if you've everbeen to Aruba you've seen those
buildings.
So color is just, has alwaysbeen a thing.
You know, the only thing that Ilike white is I love a white
(23:32):
shirt and I love a white dress.
Like I used to tell people likeI am a white shirt whore.
I have a closet full of shirtsand 95% of them are white.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Really.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I would have never guessed that about you.
That's so funny, absolutely,yeah, oh, interesting.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I feel like design should be an expression of who
you are as a person.
It should be full of color.
I mean, if you look at nature,it's full of color.
I feel like neutral design isthe stripping away of life.
It's just so blase.
And I think outside of theUnited States there are very few
(24:10):
countries that design in whitelike that.
Everyone is full of rich colors, whether it's their national
costume or the way they do theirhouses.
Like everybody loves colorexcept us.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Well, I think it scares a lot of people.
You know, I think a lot ofpeople don't know how to even
begin with it or how to mix thecolors together.
But, I think my takeaway outsideof the fact that you're very
good at it, but my takeaway isthat you, number one, knew who
you were.
Number two, you stayed true towho you were from the get-go,
from the beginning, and youdidn't try to be someone else
(24:45):
because it would have been veryeasy for you to say, oh,
everyone else is doing this,Everyone else is doing this
other design aesthetic, doingthis other color palette or
whatever.
That's easy, right, Because onsocial media right now, what do
you see?
Right?
It's like scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll scroll.
You can't tell some of themapart, right, but what happens,
(25:06):
sarah?
When you see something that'sdifferent, you stop the scroll.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Right, the scroll stops and it's different.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
You're like, oh, that's nice, yeah, and that's
what you have, and I've evencommented on your stuff before
because it is scroll-stoppingdesign, because I'm like, excuse
me, ma'am, that's not, that wasnot, that is not what I
expected to see today.
It was like gorgeous, right,you know, but but thank you.
But it is because you do it sowell and that comes from a
(25:31):
passion that comes from your,your true, genuine, authentic
interest in that, and I and Itry to hammer that home with
people all the time.
It's just like, please, people,everybody, no matter what your
career, but especially designyou, where we are so creative
and where it is just truly a big, you're taking your heart and
you're laying it right there onthe table in front of everybody,
if that is not a true heart andit's not authentic, then you're
(25:52):
just wasting your time, right.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
You know, usually like and for me, like starting a
design, I usually start witheither wallpaper or fabric and
what I do is I actually just goto the design center.
We only have four floors here,but I just walk every floor, I
go to every showroom and I justgather samples.
And then I come back and I sitand think about what I was told,
(26:18):
what I saw in the consultation,like who this person is, what
were they wearing, what's intheir house already, and then I
just start crafting a story forthem.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Oh, I love that.
I love that you said story.
That's great Because it doesbecome a story that you're
weaving throughout that process.
Right?
Do your clients contact youknowing that you?
Obviously, I hope that they dothat.
You love that.
They love color that you lovecolor because if they're calling
, you're like, do a beige roomfor me.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
You're like I'm not your gal, right?
So usually this is what I do.
If someone contacts me, numberone, I get a free 30 minute call
with them because I want tofeel the vibe yeah like.
Are we going to get along?
What are your expectations?
Have you used a designer before?
Are your budget expectations upto par with the service that
I'm going to provide you?
And every single time that Ihave not done that, it doesn't
(27:09):
work out.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
They're like.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Oh my god, is that?
So I try to adhere to thatreally well and then, believe it
or not, I get most of myclients from Instagram, so they
are already seeing what it isthat I bring to the table.
And even when I don't get one,if it's a referral from another
designer, it's a cold call.
I always send them to go.
I was like go look at myaccount on Instagram, go look at
(27:32):
my website, see what you thinkand then, if you're still
interested, we'll move forward.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
That's great.
Yeah, because randomly it's atire kicker who's like'm just
going to find the best price.
It's like no, no, you need tofind the client who's jiving
with you and the designer, andthe vibe has to be there.
The synergy has to be there,the chemistry, and so I've even
started working into myquestionnaire, into my
conversations what's yourfavorite project that we've done
?
And I make them do homework Iliterally make them do homework,
(27:58):
because I want to know thatthey're not just like trying to
get the cheapest price out there.
What else do you do on theupfront?
Are you clear?
Do you talk about pricing, forinstance?
Do you?
Talk about do you have minimums?
I know you charge for yourconsultations.
I saw that right on yourwebsite, so I love that you do
that.
Are you that transparent andthat clear with your clients
from the beginning, or do youleave a little magic to you know
(28:19):
?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
unveil as you go along.
Um, the only magic I unveilwith them is I I don't give a
pricing until I've done theconsultation, because I just say
to them, like I don't know whatthe work is that's going to be
involved in this project, and ifI give you a price and it's too
high, you might not call me.
And then if I give you a priceand it's too low, then and I
give you another price, thenyou'll you have that first price
set in your mind, and so I justkind of give them a general
idea of cost.
(28:46):
Like I did a kitchen last year.
This is how much the design feewas for it.
If you're comfortable with that, then let's keep talking.
If not, maybe you think aboutit.
Maybe we don't do this.
Just I'm pretty transparent.
I'm not transparent where mypricing is concerned, like some
designers are like I'm costtransparent.
I'm not transparent where mypricing is concerned, like some
designers are like, oh, I'm costplus 20.
I don't tell people what that?
(29:06):
is when I go into Target I don'tknow what Target is upcharging.
That's not my business.
What is my business is theprice that's on the tag, and so
same with me.
I say, hey, what I charge youfor is what I charge you for.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
What I do love that you just said is that you have,
you know your data and that youknow that you did this kitchen
that costs X and you did thisbathroom that costs Y, and you
can pull that out when you'respeaking with clients, and I
think that is just invaluableinformation to be able to relate
that back to people, becauseyou know there are very few
projects that are 100% differentthan what we've done before.
(29:42):
Right, I mean, there are some,but you can always find some
sort of like oh that's the Smithproject, or oh, that's the.
Jones project right and it'snice to have that and I wish
more people would just sort ofstop and we tend to just go to
the next project right Withoutthinking about the past projects
.
And if we just stopped and didthat little review of those past
?
ones we be like oh yes, let'smake some notes and commit that
(30:03):
to memory, right?
Exactly does that help people?
Does that bring their guarddown, or are some people like
hell?
No, I'm moving on.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
See you later, alligator and then it's a bit of
both the people who really.
There are people who have donea bit of research before they
reach out to you, like they knowa general idea.
So once I tell them, they're'relike okay, yeah, that was along
the line of what I was thinking.
And then there are other peoplewho are like like I just had a
lady and she was like, oh, Ithought the $500 for
(30:31):
consultation was the cost thatyou were going to charge me to
do the design.
I was like I'm designing fourrooms for you.
Like no, ma'am, I'm like wow,and that was one of the people
that I hadn't had the 30 minutefree conversation with.
She was a referral and she justcalled me up out of the blue
and I didn't at the time.
(30:52):
She called me.
I don't know I was doingsomething.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
I didn't take the time to talk her through it and
so, yeah, People tend to jump toconclusions, I find you know,
until I've said this before.
But I remember doing a big,huge home in-home consultation.
It was in Beverly Hills and itwas a huge, huge house and I did
the consultation and it wasbefore I started explaining
things before, kind of whatyou're saying right and I do the
(31:15):
consultation.
he paid for the consultation, ofcourse, and then it was over
and I sent over the proposal andI think it was like 50,000, and
he was like, oh, I thought thiswas like 50 bucks an hour,
that's what I Googled.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
And I was like, no, I don't, I'm sorry, I don't know
who you've been Googling Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
The standards across our industry are so strange and
so up and down and so manypeople are afraid to talk about
money, and then that leadsclients to say, oh, I'm just
going to, either you know,google something that's
incorrect or make up somethingthat I feel is correct.
Right such as oh all designerspass along their pricing right.
That's another misconceptionthat people have.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
I think absolutely yeah I mean, let's not get it
twisted.
It is not comfortable to talkabout the budget, it absolutely
is not.
But it's more uncomfortable togo in and get excited about the
project and then for them to belike no, I'm like, even though
you just paid for these last twohours, I still wasted these two
hours.
There are people who haveconsultation as their business
model and they're okay, justdoing consultation.
(32:12):
I'm going out to theconsultation so I can book the
job.
So it's kind of disappointingwhen you're like, wow, this
would have been an amazingproject.
And here we are.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Yeah, yeah, your plan is to have it move on to the
next phase, whether it be a fullscale design or renovation or
new build or whatever.
But yeah, you're right Somepeople have it as part of their
business model of fiveconsultations per week, right
yeah.
Yeah, I'm with you.
I sort of get invested in it.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
I'm like, oh, the thing in my mouth salivating
right, Right.
I'm already like, based on whatthey're telling me, I'm already
like I know where I need toorder some of this and this.
I'm thinking things.
And then they're like, oh, isthat how much?
And I explained it to herbecause this was a retired OB
and I said it's just like cominginto your office for an office
(33:03):
visit.
That's one cost, but if I haveto do a procedure with you, I
got to pay for that.
Like there's another largercost to the procedure.
So yeah, no, that's brilliant.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I love that.
I love that you sort of took itand turned it so that she can
understand it in her own words.
And I think a lot of times,designers, we feel like we're
just creatives and we're notsalespeople, but we're always,
we're always selling, and I tryto replace the word selling with
serving it in my head If I feellike I'm serving that person,
really, truly giving themsomething of value, giving them
something that's going to changetheir lives and you've probably
(33:37):
seen where clients cry when youdo the reveal right.
You know you've seen how itreally is serving.
It makes a difference in livesand I try to always go back to
that when I'm giving the price,when I'm talking about something
or when I'm giving this big sixfigure proposal to a client for
design fee.
Okay, here you go.
This is $110,000, but here'swhat you're going to get out of
this.
But that's what I try to alwaysremember is like you're giving
(33:59):
them something so valuable thatno one else could give them, and
that is something that youtruly are serving them with.
Have you had to change anythingover the years where you're
like, oh, yeah, okay, absolutely.
You started one way and thenyou're like, oh Sarah, let me
change this, because then maybethis wasn't working so well.
(34:19):
Anything come to mind alongthat route?
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Let me tell you something.
My first client paid $125 formy consultation and I designed
their kitchen, dining room andfamily room for $1,750.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
$1,750?
Speaker 2 (34:37):
$1,750.
Oh, because I did not know.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Damn you, oh, Because I did not know.
Damn you fit him.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
That has definitely changed, rather than the money.
Listen every time, I thinkabout it.
And I didn't even get anyprofessional pictures at the end
of it because I didn't know, Ididn't even think about that.
And then, shortly after that, Istarted listening to Luann's
podcast and then they were likethis is kind of how he has to do
(35:09):
it and I was like dang, Imissed the opportunity because
the kitchen was really good.
But things that I've changed.
That 30 minute free call, Ididn't have that in the
beginning.
I used to chart let people goahead.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Can I ask you about that before you jump onto that,
Because some people do 10minutes, some people do 15.
Do you call it a discovery call?
What do you call it First ofall?
What do you call that call forpeople?
Do you have a name for it?
Yeah, free 30 minute call.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Okay, that's exactly what it says.
Okay, perfect, perfect.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
And then I found that 30 minutes is the happy
timeframe for you where you canget enough information, because
some people stop at 15, somepeople stop at 20.
It's always interesting to hearthe time frame that people have
.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
I do 30 because, like , at the beginning I get them to
talk to me about their projectand how they arrived at wanting
to use me.
Then I use about another 10 to15 minutes talking about my
procedure and how it goes Okay,and at the end I let them ask me
any questions that they want.
I use that time like we've beentalking now I'm joking around
with them and then I just say tothem like if you're still
(36:09):
interested, I'll send you a linkto book the consultation.
Most people say yes, eventhough some people don't.
But it just kind of puts themat a choice point and I find
like 30 minutes is perfect.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Okay, good, good to know, Good to know.
I always find it interestingbecause sometimes you say 15 and
it ends up being 30 anyway.
So it's always just, I guessit's nice just to be, and some
people are afraid to give awaytoo much information on that
quote, unquote, free call, butyou have to give enough to
entice them, right, right, yeah,yeah, okay, anyway, sorry, you
were saying other things thatyou changed in your business.
(36:42):
You know I change a lot ofstuff, like I'm not responsible
for your kids in the house whenI'm there doing your renovation,
you know.
I mean all kinds of things.
Do you have a long, lengthyagreement?
Have you changed that?
I'm sure you've changed thingsin your agreement over the years
.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
I've changed things in my agreement but honestly, my
agreement stays around the same.
What I have done is changethings when things happen from a
business perspective, like ifoh shoot, I didn't have a
coverage for this, then I put itin my contract.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, yeah, it's always nice to revisit it after
a project is over.
I find to say, oh, what did wemiss during this project?
Not just your agreement, butyour processes, right?
Just?
Things that went along andmaybe pricing.
You know, remember that timewhen tariffs were a thing and
tariffs were all, and when theykind of still are, but when they
were literally just like, everyday you got another email like
(37:32):
10% here, 5% there, and it waslike, oh, my God.
So like it was, like I wasalways, you know, trying to keep
up to date with that, so it'salways good for everybody to
just stay on top of all of thosethings, and really you can't
just ever say this is myagreement this is it.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah, this is my process.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
I'm done with it.
This is my business for thenext 10 years.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
I'm done with no, no, no, no, no, no, if you're going
to truly be a business owner.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
You really do have to have to evolve a pulse of that
right.
So you said something to me andI'm going to read it verbatim
and I love it.
I want you to explain toeverybody what you meant by that
.
You said have you really doneyour job as a designer if you
don't design something for yourclient that is outside of the
expectations that they had forthe project?
So tell me what you meant bythat, so that other people can
(38:16):
maybe glean something from that.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Okay.
So in the beginning I used toask people to send me their
Pinterest boards and then they'dbe like I like this sofa, I
like this, I like that.
So basically, they saw anotherdesigner's design and kind of
wanted me to recreate it.
Right, and I just said tomyself, like I don't want people
to know what it is I'mdesigning for them, because if
(38:40):
that's the case, they could kindof just do it themselves.
And then I become like thesourcing person.
What I want is a design that'sthat, while it's true to who
they are, I want it to blowtheir mind.
I want them to be like I neverwould have thought about this,
but this is so amazing, this isso freaking good.
Like.
(39:01):
I even want there to be alittle bit of sometimes
convincing that I have to dowith them to get them outside of
the box of design that they'veplaced themselves in.
You know, like I know youwouldn't ordinarily do this, but
look at how good the flow ofthis will be.
And once they like see it, theyget it, and when it's done,
(39:23):
they're always like.
My friends came over here, theycouldn't believe it.
They were like it looks likeyou, but I know you could have
never done this and that's theexperience I want to live them
like.
I'm not.
I'm not flipping houses, youknow.
I don't want to have a massappeal, I don't.
I tell them, I don't wantanyone to come to your house and
be like oh yeah, I saw thatsofa at Pottery Barn.
(39:43):
Like no shade on Pottery Barn.
But I want them to have like acompletely unique experience in
their home.
I want them to come down in 10years and be like, even though
this design is dated, it's stillso amazing.
And I might need to.
You know just some things, butI can't believe.
I live here.
This is my house, this is mylife.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah, and it's really probably no fault of the
clients, right?
They only know what they knowright, it's not their fault.
They know what they see.
They see that same scroll thatwe see right when we're looking
through, seeing the same thingExactly.
Exactly, I mean there are a fewpeople that even have, you know
, some television shows thatwill go unnamed.
That I'm just like oh my.
God, Literally literally.
(40:22):
This is like cardboard cutoutof what you did last week and
what you did the week before andwhat you did the week before,
absolutely.
And it's like, oh my God.
But all right, let's just keepon going with this and making
bank from it.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Right, right, exactly , exactly.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
For them anyway.
And then you know all of us outthere who are trying to be
different.
People look at us with theirhead kind of turned sideways
sometimes Right.
Until you find that rightclient who's like, oh my God, I
get it, I get it, I understandit and.
I understand it.
And that is, when do you feel avalidation at that point, of a
kinship, of a synergy with thatclient, when you're like, oh my
God, they get me.
It sort of feels great, doesn'tit?
(40:59):
It feels, great it feels greatfor me on both sides, because it
feels great for me, but then Ifeel happy for them.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Oh, I love that.
Oh, my God, you're about to getsuch an amazing design because
you have enough trust to let medo the thing that I do.
Like I'm not beingbraggadocious or whatever, but
I'm an amazing designer and theextents of it have not been seen
right.
But it's like when someone letsme do my thing, the thing that
(41:34):
I can bring to you, yeah, it'llbe amazing.
I love it.
Oh, what does that mean?
That means I'm probably nevergoing to have as many clients as
other designers and maybe Ihave to supplement my income
with something else because I'mnot getting as many clients in a
row.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
But it's worth it to me, no, I think you just need to
charge more for the clients youare getting, and then we're
going to have fewer clients, butwe'll talk about that later.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
You're right.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
You're right Because you are good and I want you to
charge more.
So then we're going to getfewer clients and just make even
more money.
But you mentioned a word that Ithink is really important and
that is trust, and trust doesn'thappen, obviously, immediately
when we're trying to get aclient to either listen to a
design plan that we have or tospend a certain amount of money.
Do you have any ways that youwould lend some advice to people
(42:23):
for gaining trust with a client, or do you have something that
you do, a process that you havefor getting that trust with a
client?
Because I know it doesn'thappen right away and I think it
does take time.
But what do you do?
How do you get a?
Speaker 2 (42:38):
client to trust you, to take these chances with color
and with risky design in theireyes, Wow.
Well, you know what?
Sometimes my clients ask me forreferences and I give them and
I just say like here call thesepeople, find out what their
experience was.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Do you do mood boards , for instance, or do you do a
full design plan?
How do you let them know likeeverything's going?
Speaker 2 (42:50):
to work out okay in the end, like how do you?
Speaker 1 (42:52):
say yeah, that's what I guess is what I'm trying to
say, like, okay, these colorsare going to be gorgeous
together okay here's why youshould trust me with this.
How do you do that?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
okay.
So I, when I'm doing apresentation, I have three,
three phases of it.
I have the mood board where I'mshowing them everything, then I
have the actual physicalsamples and I try to get samples
of every single thing that I'mbringing as an option in terms
of like to the fact, like I havea relationship with my former
(43:21):
Kohler rep where I'll be likeI'm using this faucet Do you
have one that I can borrow tobring to the clients?
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Even a faucet, okay.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Absolutely, and metal samples from all my lighting
companies that I can get.
I'm just bringing samples ofeverything because I want them
to touch it, I want them to seehow it goes with everything, and
then I always make a SketchUpmodel that incorporates
everything that I'm presentingso that they can see it in their
room and see what it's going tolook like.
(43:49):
I used to do renders.
I don't do them so much anymore, I just use SketchUp and,
honestly, if I could figure outhow to use SketchUp with Oculus,
I'd be done.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
I have a feeling there's a new pathway that Sarah
Wilson is going to be workingon Right, right, right In your
free time.
Just come up with a brand newsoftware system that we can all
use.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
If you don't mind, Come up with a brand new
software system that we can alluse, if you don't mind, if you
can just do that Sure, I'm on it.
Don't you have some free?
Speaker 1 (44:20):
time between like 2 and 5 am that you can devote to
this, and I think too, sarah,probably the other ingredient
that you're not mentioning hereis that energy and that passion
that you're probably emotingwhen you're doing the
presentation, because I findwhen a designer is truly excited
about a presentation, youalmost get goosebumps when
you're presenting it to a client, right, and do you find that
that is that last ingredientthat puts it over the top to get
(44:41):
them to buy into the designplan?
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yeah, because you know how a lot of times people
are like, oh I wouldn't thinkabout that, but wow, I could see
how you put it together, Icould see how good it is or like
, if they're not like, okay.
So I was working for a builderrecently.
It didn't work out, but therewas a client who it was his
mom's house Wallpaper everywhere.
He was like I hate wallpaper.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
I'm crying.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
But in my presentation I brought some
wallpaper and I said to them,like okay, your foyer, there's
nothing fun going on in here.
Like, why don't we just put alittle bit of wallpaper on the
ceiling Then, that way you don'tfeel overwhelmed with it?
But it's just like, and he waslike.
So I said I have threewallpapers here and we're just
going to let you pick which oneyou like.
(45:30):
And he ended up picking onethat he really, really liked.
He was like I never would havethought that I would be here and
it's on their ceiling.
So I think that my passion forit, I'm like it's just a little
something.
It's just a little somethinglike when someone comes into
your house and they look up,they're like oh wow, that's
unexpected.
I'm like you don't have to gocrazy with it everywhere, but
(45:59):
just a little hint of it.
And he was like yeah, I couldsee that.
So I just think like I talk topeople's emotions as opposed to
their logical brain.
And sometimes people are likewell, how is this going to
happen?
And I say hey, hey, hey, hey,hey, just not our conversation
to have Like my husband is myelectrician.
And they'll be like oh, theselights, how's that going to
happen.
I'm like hey, hey, hey, hey,that's between the electrician
and the work.
We don't worry about thosetypes of things.
We are here for the good times,the good looking things, and we
let the trades worry about howthey're going to figure out how
(46:19):
it's going to be done.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
And then they're like okay, Sarah says it's okay, so
I'm going to be with it.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
I'm like, if you really really want to know, have
that conversation with theelectrician.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
I'm not the person to tell you about that, because
that's not my expertise.
I love it.
I love it.
Speaking of trades and vendors,you mentioned earlier that you
like to keep a nice, solidrelationship with them and you
found that that's helped youover the years, it sounds like,
with your company and withgrowing your business and so
forth.
What are the keys to a goodrelationship with a vendor or
with a trades person, and whathave you found that that has
done to help you grow yourbusiness?
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Okay, let's talk about trades.
I always am very respectful ofmy trades.
If I say I'm going to besomewhere at a certain time, I'm
going to be there at a certaintime.
If they ask me to do something,I'm going to do it.
I always say to them, like I'mproposing something to you,
You're the expert.
Tell me if it can or cannot bedone, Like I never assume that
(47:17):
it can be done.
And then I also say like okay,well, can we talk through this
and see if we can come up?
So I kind of make them part ofthe process, so they're not just
like my labor, Like I kind ofget them invested also in the
projects.
And number two, my trade vendorshave a contract with the
clients and not with me.
I say to them, number one, I'mnot a GC, but number two, like
I'm not going to charge theclients more on your labor that
(47:39):
I have nothing to do with.
So they have freedom to talk tothe client about everything.
But we've worked together somuch that I don't ever feel like
they're trying to steal myclients.
And, honestly, more often thannot they get more work from the
clients.
Oh, since you're here, can youdo this and I don't have any
problem with that.
I mean, like they want to eattoo, right, and so, since I'm
not upcharging anything, there'sno like, oh no, if they talk to
(48:02):
the client, they'll know thatthe client will know that I'm
charging them more for thislabor.
It's transparent all the wayacross.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Do you find that the trades scratch your back too and
send business your way?
Because sometimes, for mepersonally, I find it tends to
be a one-way street sometimes.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
It is Okay.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
And that really annoys me frankly, sometimes,
where I'm like, hey, morebusiness for you, more business
for you, and I'm like really no,one's asked for a designer.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Not one, not one person has asked for a designer
Like come on, come on now, comeon.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
I don't buy that, so I I didn't know if anybody else
was having that same experienceI.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
I think there I've only had one trade that did it
the opposite, as my windowtreatment lady when I lived in
california.
She was great about um sendingbusiness my way.
But no, I think it's because ofthe way I run my business.
Even though I'm not a g, I runmy projects like a GC, and so I
get the client first and then Isecure the trades.
(48:56):
So I don't know.
I don't know how they're doingI don't get much business that
way.
But now my vendors, that's adifferent story.
I get business from my vendors.
They'll be like, hey, there'ssomeone in your area looking for
a designer, do you want to beconsidered?
But I interact with my vendorsa lot Like even though I'm a
solo firm.
I get them here to my homeoffice to do all their
(49:17):
presentations.
I get the samples.
When they have events, I'm likebe sure to invite me.
So I keep very closerelationships with my vendors
and if I have an opportunity todisplay their product in like a
new and innovative way, I'malways willing to like pass
pictures along so that they canput it wherever they want to put
it, because I just feel like myvendors are willing to bend
(49:39):
over backwards for me, more sothan I find with other people.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
The rep for that company really is the lifeline
to the product, to the company,to the person at the top of the
chain right, and so it's nice tokeep that relationship strong
and secure and to keep itwell-bonded.
I think you do a great job withthat and I go to market and I'm
like, oh, sarah has a piecehere in this showroom.
I'm like, okay, well, okay,sarah designed another piece, so
(50:03):
for people and I love it andthey're beautiful and you seem
to have nurtured thoserelationships in a way that have
gotten you some product designs, and I know a lot of people
dream about having products fromvendors, and I'm sure it's
vendors that you love workingwith right, right yeah.
So how do you?
How did you get that going?
What did that process look like?
Would you recommend otherpeople do it?
You know all the goody goodydetails of that.
(50:25):
That people who might want toentertain that idea tell them
about the behind the scenes ofthat process for you, because
it's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
Honestly, I have always been a just ask person.
So let me say like, forinstance, I did the one room
challenge and I pay for verylittle in the room because I
just asked.
I asked everybody and whensomeone said no, I just asked
someone else like hey, I loveyour product, I've been using it
.
Here is some examples of howI've used it.
I'm doing this.
(50:51):
There's a spotlight on it.
I'd love to showcase yourproduct would you be interested
in, even if it's a discount orwhatever.
And so I take the same tackwhen I'm approaching someone for
product, like hey, I reallylove your product.
I love to design furniture.
I'm probably not doing it rightBecause I usually I mean, it's
just a piece that I don't getany monetary thing on it, so
(51:12):
there's probably a piece that'smissing.
So I don't know if I'd use meas an example, but I just say
like hey, I love your product.
I'd love to do somecollaboration with you.
We've done a lot of business inthe past.
Would you be interested?
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Well, okay, that's very simple, that's very easy.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Okay, see, there are people listening don't, don't
wait.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
I mean sometimes just asking for that thing you want
or that thing that you need, isjust that answer?
Okay, so now you need to justask for the monetary, some money
, you're right, you're right,you're right.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
I mean I put someone at kbiz I'm not gonna say who it
is, we're not done with theyeah negotiation but I just said
like, hey, I you guys know thatI use your product almost
exclusively.
I'm always all over Instagramwith you.
I just started selling cabinets.
I'd like to have like a capsulecollection to present to my
(52:03):
cabinet company.
I couldn't think of a bettercompany I'd love to do that with
, and immediately they were likeabsolutely.
And then started brainstormingways that we could collaborate
with each other.
So sometime maybe next KBizthere'll be a collection of mine
out there on the floor.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Fabulous, fabulous.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
I think if you come in well-prepared and with
examples and a lot of people,just a lot of companies even,
just want somebody to come inwith not only just the concept
but just a plan in place I findwhen I've done licensing it's
like, okay, you come in with aplan in place.
Here's the product.
Here's how I want to market it,here's the idea I have behind
it, and it's a solid plan.
They're likely to say yes tothat and then, if not, as you
(52:41):
say, just move on to the nextperson.
To the next person, that's justthe way it is, because it's a
good plan.
That's how I got the bookpublished, but it was like the
same chapter over and, over andover.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
But you know, no one else knew that it was just a
good chapter.
They didn't take it.
So, okay, yeah, no, that'sbrilliant yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
You don't rest on your any sort of laurel at all.
You really just jump out thereand when you want something, you
go for it, and I think thatthat is such a lesson to be
learned.
What's new Other than this,this little carrot that you just
dangled in front of us?
You have any new excitingthings that you have that you
want to do down the road,anything that you want to do to
grow your company, any otherexpansions or anything?
(53:23):
What do you have?
I feel like there's somethingon your brain.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
Honestly, my new thing right now is this cabinet
line, because I feel like thatis one arena of my business.
I had no idea what cabinetrycosts.
Like you go somewhere andsomeone gives you a price and
then you're like, is thereenough margin for me to price
higher, is there not?
And I was like I think I wantto get into that because,
(53:46):
honestly, I like to design stuffdifferent for my clients and a
lot of times, unless you'regoing like full custom, which
not everyone can afford, thenyou can't do the thing that you
really want to do.
And so now this is just metaking it up another level of
customization for my clients,whether it's going to be like
color, whether it's like theactual design.
(54:06):
And the cabinet company that Ipartner with is fabulous as far
from a custom standpoint andthey make the process so easy
Like I've done cabinetry enoughthat I've already designed a
couple of kitchens with them andI really just jumped on the
software and started doing it.
To tell you the honest truth,this is what I tell my husband I
(54:26):
love creativity and that's justacross the board.
Like I'm looking for a weldingclass, I want to take glass
blowing.
I've done pottery and when Idid the pottery, the girl was
like, oh wow, you're really good.
Have you done pottery before?
I'm like no, I just I lovecreativity, and so for me, it's
just about being able to jump inand do something.
(54:46):
I'm probably going to findsomething this year.
Actually, this year is my yearof travel.
I'm booking trips.
I want to do a lot ofinternational travel and go and
see things.
I would love to open a littleshop that I didn't have to sit
in.
I don't want to sit in there.
But just like sitting stillproviding like unique things
that I found on my travels andintegrating them into people's
(55:07):
spaces for them, just likehere's a piece of pottery, like
something with a story behind it.
So, yeah, like I'm goingsomewhere in June, july, august,
september, october.
I got to find something forNovember and December, but yeah,
this is my year to just likereally get out and travel.
I just renewed my passport, I'mready.
Speaker 1 (55:27):
When you look at it that way, creativity has no
boundary right.
It is completely open.
And then so many times, I thinkwe just get into a rut,
especially when we're busy, ofjust doing the same thing over
and over and over, and we don'tgive ourselves time to
experiment and to learn and toreally give ourselves time to,
you know, be overwhelmed and tolove and to just learn from all
(55:48):
these different places.
Right?
I just think that that is whatyou're giving yourself time to
do is to truly grow from theseexperiences, and I think that is
what's going to make you comeback from all this travel and
have all kinds of other ideasand do all kinds of other
fabulous things, and then we'regonna be like all right, Sarah,
calm down now.
We've done it, you know, onestep at a time.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
That's what you know like people are always asking me
like, oh, do you want to growyour firm?
And I'm like, absolutely not.
Like I'm going to be solo tillI die, because I like the
freedom of being solo.
It's great to have a staff, butthen it's you're kind of like
tying yourself down to a place.
Like now like there's a certainamount of overhead that I have
(56:26):
to keep because I have staff.
There's a certain schedule thatI have to keep.
Like me, now I'm on theschedule of Sarah.
I don't like to work on Fridays.
I don't work on Fridays.
I never work on the weekends.
If I travel, I take my laptopso that if there is work to be
done, I can take care of it inthe morning.
But I just I'm at the age likeI raised my kid.
(56:46):
He's an adult.
I just want to be free to.
Oh hey, do you want to go dothis?
And I can just go do it.
Speaker 1 (56:53):
Do you as a solopreneur, do you limit the
number of projects that you doto try to keep that balance, or
do you take on everything that'sinspiring to you?
Speaker 2 (57:01):
To be honest, I take on everything that's inspiring
to me, but there is a certainlimit after a while where I'm
like, okay, I can't be effectiveif I take on more, because I am
a solopreneur, that means I'mthe person who has to go to look
at each job site, and so Ican't get crazy because I can't
spend every day of every week ata job site.
(57:23):
I think I did like six in 22,six really large ones, and it
was a lot because they were kindof all going at the same time
and I take projects within anhour radius of me, which in this
area is a lot, and so I spent alot of time on the road going
from project to project toproject, and I guess I'm
(57:43):
limiting that now.
I don't want to be.
That was a little much.
Speaker 1 (57:46):
It was great, but it was a little much I can see how
it would be and no outside helpfrom any virtual assistance,
something like that for youeither.
Just it's you, the tradespeopleand the vendors, basically.
And my sister on the accountand your sister on the
accounting side, right, right,right, right.
Well, I always say when I was asolopreneur back in the day, I
(58:06):
always used the term we anyway,because there always is a we.
There always, literally, is ateam of people around you, no
matter if you have one person inyour home office or 10 people
in your big office.
whatever, it is a team effort,no matter how you look at it
Right but.
I think that's inspiring topeople to see that a solopreneur
can take on this scale ofprojects, can take on their
business.
The way that you do can changelives.
(58:28):
The way that you do can just beso successful.
The way that you are, you're atrue inspiration.
I love your projects.
Speaker 2 (58:34):
I love you you know that, yeah we just have the best
time.
Speaker 1 (58:38):
So tell everybody absolutely where they can find
you online and see more of yourbeautiful things and you usually
most of the trade shows as well.
We usually pop up there as well, so they can find you there
typically, but online where canthey find you?
Speaker 2 (58:52):
I'm online everywhere , everywhere, at Chancelry,
which I'm sure John is going toput in the notes because it's
hard to spell yes, and I'm goingto tell you the story about
that.
But I'm on Instagram, I'm onFacebook, I'm on Pinterest and,
of course, my website, and Ihave a sprinkling of podcasts
here and there.
Speaker 1 (59:12):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, but I do, before we do close out
, I do want to know the quickkind of reasoning behind the
name of your business.
Speaker 2 (59:19):
Okay.
So my family, my mom and mysisters and I were all very
close and once upon a time Ilived in Alabama do not
recommend zero of 10.
But every I'm seven, theoffensive.
So every Friday night we wouldbe at my mom's house, we'd be
sitting around, we have dinnerand then we just chat and we all
have boys, and so our boys andeverything.
(59:40):
And one Friday night my momsaid I have a name for a
business.
If any of you guys decide thatyou want to go into business,
then we're like Okay, well, whatis it?
And she said chancery.
We're like, okay, where'swhat's that?
So my older sister name ischantal, it's french, my name's
sarah and my youngest sister israchel, so chancery.
It's like I love that, sothat's it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
And so, like my little sister with her
accounting, business is chanceryconsulting it's beautiful, and
really it's such a lovely namenow that I know the history
behind it and it means even more, so kudos to your mom for that
right.
Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
She's trying to get royalties.
Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
The check is in the mail.
Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Or not.
Except now no, well, sarah,this has been so much fun.
Thank you so much fun.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out today.
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
I loved it.
I loved it and go and checkSarah out online and I will put
all the information, of course,in the show notes and I will see
you soon, Sarah.
Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
All right, bye Thanks .
Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Thanks for sticking with me to the end of the
Designer Within podcast.
It means the world to me.
If you're ready to dive deeperinto the topics that we've
discussed here, be sure to checkout my online coaching and
courses program,DesignSuccessAcademycom.
Here I will teach youeverything you need to know to
run your interior designbusiness, from starting the
project all the way to the end,including marketing and pricing
(01:01:11):
your services for profit.
And for more information onthis podcast, including how to
be a guest or my design servicesin general, go to JohnMcClainco
.
That's JohnMcClainco.
See you soon, friend.
You said have you really done your job as a
designer if you don't designsomething for your client that
is outside of the expectationsthat they had for the project?
So tell me what you meant bythat.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Basically, they saw another designer's design and
wanted me to recreate it right,and I just said to myself I
don't want people to know whatit is I'm designing for them,
because if that's the case, theycould just do it themselves,
and then I become the sourcingperson.
What I want is a design that,while it's true to who they are,
(00:31):
I want it to blow their mind.
I want them to be like I neverwould have thought about this,
but this is so amazing.
I even want there to be alittle bit of sometimes
convincing that I have to do toget them outside of the box of
design that they've placedthemselves in.
And when it's done, they'realways like.
My friends came over here.
(00:52):
They couldn't believe it.
They were like it looks likeyou, but I know you could have
never done this, and that's theexperience I want to live them.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Hey all you're listening to the designer within
podcast, episode number 48.
I'm john McLean and welcome tothe Designer Within Podcast,
episode number 48.
I'm John McClain and welcome tothe Designer Within Podcast,
the business-minded podcastcreated for creative
entrepreneurs by a creativeentrepreneur.
That's me.
I know firsthand the challenges, but also the victories that
(01:20):
can come with our careers, andI'm here to sip and spill the
tea with you.
It's time to dive deep withinyourself and redesign your own
business and your life from theinside out.
Together, we will uncoversecrets and share valuable
insights.
So prepare for a transformativeexperience, my friends, because
it's time to unleash thedesigner within.
(01:42):
Hey everybody, welcome back toanother episode of the designer
within.
How the heck.
Welcome back to another episodeof the designer within.
How the heck are you?
Can you believe it is summer?
It feels so weird to say thatit's already June.
It's already like almost themiddle of June, which even feels
stranger.
I don't know if any of you aregoing to be at Las Vegas market,
but that will be the next bigmarket that is upcoming that I
(02:04):
will be at.
So I will be there in July.
At the end of July, I will beon some panels and I will be
hosting the awards as well.
So some fun things there.
I will keep you posted on thatand I hope your summer is off to
a great, great start.
I'm assuming the kids are outof school by now in most areas.
It's so hard to keep track ofthat now that I'm not around my
(02:27):
nieces and nephews as much as Iused to be, but I am doing well
and really excited about today'sepisode.
Today I have Sarah Wilson on thepodcast.
Sarah is the owner andprincipal designer of Chancere
Designs and you are going tolove Sarah Wilson.
If you've heard a lot of recentguests on my podcast that I met
(02:48):
at Luann Live I'm speakingabout Luann Nigara, of course,
and last fall in Orlando she hadwhat she calls Luann Live and I
was one of the speakers at theevent and at that event I met so
many wonderful, wonderfulpeople.
Once again, sarah is one ofthose wonderful people and we
just clicked right away and Ijust love her.
(03:08):
I love her energy, I love herphilosophy and she's just really
, really good at her job,frankly, and you're going to
love this interview.
We tell her so many things inthis conversation.
We talk about why she lovesdesign, her former career, how
she sort of meandered, if youwill, into design from what she
did before, and the fact thatshe really didn't hate her
(03:31):
previous job.
She just wanted to do somethingthat fulfilled her even more,
and I think that is such animportant caveat, because a lot
of the time, many of us are likeno, no, no, I hate this, I hate
this, I hate this.
That really wasn't the casewith Sarah.
She just was ready for a changeand she wanted to fulfill
herself creatively, and shetalks about how she did that,
and she really talks about howshe brought her former life in
(03:55):
IT over to design and how sheworks that into her business to
not only make her business runsmoother but, as she says, it
saves her a lot of money and alot of time, which I love.
Sarah is also going to sharewith you her journey of going
back to school, back to designschool, to get her degree in
design as an adult, which I didas well, and it's an interesting
(04:15):
journey to hear that.
If you did that, you knowexactly how that might feel
going back to school with someyounger kids in the classroom,
but it is an interestingperspective that Sarah has on
that.
We also talked about some ofSarah's business practices.
We discussed her agreement.
We talked about her consultation, how she finds the right
clients and how she really wantsto make sure that her clients
(04:39):
are aligned with her and arelooking for the same thing
creatively and are willing totake some risks and let Sarah
really show her clients what shecan bring to the table as a
designer and try to push thoseboundaries.
Sarah is just a breath of freshair.
You're going to love thisconversation.
You're going to learn a lotfrom this conversation, so put
(05:00):
those earbuds in and enjoy mychat with Sarah Wilson of
Chancery Design.
Sarah, I want to welcome you tothe Designer Within podcast.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Hi, how are you?
I'm so excited to be here withyou.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I am so good, I'm so happy to have you here.
I think you and I just have ourown private podcast when we see
each other in settings outsideof a recording, so we were both
just like why don't we just turnthe microphone on and actually
record something Exactly exactly.
So, as usual, I've given mylittle bio about you, which is
(05:36):
the more professional version.
I always like for my guests togive a bit more personalized
version, because you do have areally interesting background
and an interesting way that yousort of meandered your way, like
most of us do, into interiordesign.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
So tell me about that .
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Tell everyone listening about how you did that
, and it is a second career foryou as well.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I would almost dare say it's a third career for me
because I actually I love design.
I've always designed my ownhome and always really thought
to myself like I wonder ifthere's a career here.
I wonder how I could transitionto doing it in business for
someone else.
Because you know, when you doit for yourself, like the time
(06:19):
is free, you're meandering,you're finding things, you're
putting it together a little bitmore slowly.
But my mom actually had anupholstery shop when I was young
and always redid our home.
She sews.
We were always in dresses,their drapes, everything.
Our house was already alwayswell-dressed, so it comes as a
second language to me.
When I went to college I got adegree in graphics.
(06:41):
I did that for a while and thenI decided like I think I want
to try to get into interiordesign.
So I went back to school for mybachelor's and actually got an
individualized degree where Iwas taking a lot of art classes,
some architecture classes.
I did furniture design,carpentry class, like I really
just explored.
(07:01):
But at that time, once Igraduated, I found that there
weren't many schools who areaccepting non-interior design
degree people for a master's.
Because that's what I wanted todo.
I just wanted to go get amaster's degree.
So I had my son and I justthought to myself like I really
want to give this kid the world.
I'm really great at computers.
What can I do in that arenathat will pay well, so I never
(07:25):
have to tell him no to anythingthat he wants.
And so I got an IT degree and Idid that for about 10 years and
I was fine with it, because I'man introvert and at the time I
was working in a silo, just mein a desk and not necessarily
interacting so much offline.
And then here comes Scrum, herecomes Agile.
(07:48):
You're in meetings all day,just chat, chat, chatting, and
at the end of the day I was justso tired and I'm traveling to
and from work two hours each waybecause I lived in California
and I just got to a point whereI'm like I think I'm going to
have a nervous breakdown, likethis is like so much and I'm
saying that in all seriousnesslike it was just becoming a lot
(08:11):
for me.
And I was coming up on thevesting of my retirement fund
and I'm like, hey, here's anidea.
I can go back to school, I canuse my retirement fund to live
while I'm in school and then Ican just transition, and so
that's exactly what I did.
I found a program at FITM, whichis the Fashion Institute of
(08:32):
Design and Merchandising in LA,for people who already had a
degree.
It didn't have to be interiordesign, and so I would only be
taking about one year's worth ofclass to be done, and it
actually was less because I hadtaken all those classes for the
individualized degree.
So I got to remove a lot ofthings.
So I went.
I had a really great time.
(08:53):
The program was excellent.
The chairperson was older likeme, and so you know we could
talk more like on a colleaguelevel than you know student to
professor.
And at the end of my time thereshe recommended me to this
program.
It's called Chairing Styles andit's a program where there is a
(09:13):
textile designer that designs atextile, a fashion designer who
has to make a gown out of thetextile, and then a furniture
interior designer would design achair using the fabric, and so
there were 10 of us whoparticipated in that, and that
was actually the first time Iwent to market, because I don't
know if you remember, lori andKelly had that design camp
(09:36):
interior design camp, yes.
So they invited us, the 10 ofus, to come and participate in
interior design camp.
And so we went to Las Vegasmarket.
We did the camp, we walkedaround the market and I was like
, yes, oh my god, yes it justlike sat, yeah, it sat in my
soul like this is what I've beenwaiting for, and so we did the
(09:57):
show.
Then, when I left school, Ialready knew I didn't want to
work for someone.
I knew I wanted to go out on myown, but I did kind of want to
have an idea of how business wasbeing run.
So I worked for someone forfour months before launching out
into the greater stratosphere.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Oh, that's smart.
Now, gosh, okay, there's somuch there, because I feel like
a lot of people did that pathand I did too.
So you had your mom and you hadthis sort of love for fabrics
and all those things.
So it was in you, right, it wasinstilled in you.
When you say that you hadburnout and sort of you know
these issues sort of bubbling tothe surface in your IT world,
(10:37):
were they always there?
And you sort of just keptshoving them down?
Because I'm wondering if peoplelistening might be thinking the
same thing.
Maybe they're in a career thatthey're like oh I really want to
do interior design and I don'tknow how to do it, and maybe
they're trying to recognizethose signals.
But was it always there or didit come later on?
And then you just sort of justkept pushing it, pushing it,
pushing it.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
No, I actually think that it was always there because
, number one, I'm terrible atnine to five.
Always there Because, numberone, I'm terrible at nine to
five.
Like I feel like it's difficultfor creativity to be put into a
box of time, and so that's onething, and then it just was, I
don't know like.
I think the rigidity was wasthe main thing, and then just
(11:18):
being over people every singleday.
So I know that there werenights I would just be lying in
bed and being like Lord.
I know there has to be anotherway to live, because this just
doesn't flow with who I think Iam as a person.
You know there's some people wholove, they love going to work,
they love the structure, but I'mnot, I'm not and I've never
been that person.
(11:39):
And so, yeah, it was there fora while and I was pushing it
down Cause, like I said, I was asingle mom.
My kid needs to eat.
I don't have the luxury of,just, you know, going off into
whatever.
And so it was there for a longtime and I was just seeking,
like, different solutions of howcan I extract myself but still
(11:59):
afford life.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yeah, what were you doing to get the outlet for
design?
Were you just doing things foryourself, for friends, for
family around?
I mean I?
I was just like, oh, anythingaround my house, I would do it.
Anything around my house, youor my mom or my friend.
I'm like what do you need?
Okay, I'm there.
Were you doing the same thing?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
That's exactly me.
I tell people all the time likeif I move into an apartment,
guaranteed I'm not even thinkingabout getting my security
deposit back because I'm goingto paint, I'm going to put stuff
up on the wall, I'm going to doall the things because I live
here and I want to feel like Ilive here.
So, yeah, everybody who knowsme knows my college roommates
(12:37):
would call me like hey, I justbought my condo, can you help me
?
And I would do it.
So yeah, always.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, creativity always finds an outlet, it
always finds a way to get to thesurface.
And I agree with you.
I think that most people start,you know, those first careers
just because of necessity orbecause of a quote unquote have
to, like, you know, I did itbecause the world said, oh, you
have to do a business degree.
So I was like, well, I don'twant to do that, have to do a
business degree.
So I was like, well, I don'twant to do that.
(13:05):
Well, the world says you had to.
So I did.
And then I was like I hatedevery minute of it.
And then I still wanted to dothe creativity.
And then some people do it outof necessity.
But I'm telling you, your trueself finds its way to the
surface and then, when it doeswhat happens, you literally
excel.
And when you are your true self, you shine in ways that you
probably, I'm sure you nevershined the way that you do now
when you were doing IT.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, I wouldn't say that.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And the only reason I wouldn't say that is because I
don't mean as a human being, Imean as your talent.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
No, no, no.
So what I'm saying is like alot of the procedure that I used
when I was in IT.
I'm really great at computers,so I'm actually really great at
computers, so a lot of what Itook from IT, the structure I do
, I use it in interior designand I think it's to my benefit,
because a lot of people are verycreative but they don't have a
(13:52):
process to their creativity, andso that was one thing I will
say.
I was amazing in my IT career,and I'm not even kidding, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
I believe you.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
So what I did was tested software and in my time
testing software I found so manybugs that no one had found
previously.
Nothing new was ever introduced.
I learned how to do automatedtesting.
I was amazing at it but it justlike I said, once they brought
in like the whole structure ofpeople all day, meetings, all
day.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I was done yeah, no, I agree with you there and you
just hit on something that Iwanted to to touch on later and
we might as well talk about itnow.
But it is that set of skillsthat you will bring from one
thing to the other.
I call it the sliding scale ofskills, where it's like you just
slide that scale until you findthat skill set that you bring
from whatever part of your lifethat you want to apply now and
(14:43):
and you do you can and you willfind things that you're like I'm
never going to use that from aformer career and, just like you
said, you look back now and youprobably maybe you didn't know
that you were bringing thingsfrom it into design, but you're
probably seeing it throughprocesses in other ways.
But how specifically have youfound and I and I think other
people might be again lookingfor insight and things like that
to help them but howspecifically have you found and
I think other people might beagain looking for insight and
(15:04):
things like that to help themout but how specifically have
you found?
Is it just the structure of it?
Is it just the processes?
And maybe it's just being moreclear cut, because I know in IT
you guys are very straight tothe point there's no beating
around the bush with you ITpeople Right?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Well, number one, I did my own website.
I didn't have to hire someoneto do it so, and I maintain all
of the stuff behind the scenes.
But the main thing that Inoticed.
So for my firm I use StudioDesigner and the way Studio
Designer flows is the same waythat my software flowed.
Like you got to dump a bunch ofdata up front and it kind of
(15:42):
just like flows to every module.
So a bunch of test data, then Ihave these tests that I'm
running, then it gets theresults, then I report.
Studio is the same, like I putin all of the items, then you
know it's paid for.
I put in all of that stuff.
The only part of Studio I wouldsay that I am not so great at is
the finances, and that's why Ihave my sister to do it for me.
(16:04):
But yeah, like the software.
Just a lot of people are like,oh, it's too structured, I can't
figure it out.
But for me I was like, oh, thisis the cadence of how I'm used
to working, and so what?
Nine years in business and I'vealways used it no-transcript
(16:51):
system that makes more sense tothem.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
It's just like what clicks with you right?
What's?
Speaker 2 (16:55):
clicking with you.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
And then that's the way to go with it.
My next question is I guessit's more of a statement really
but what did you find Cause?
here's how I did when I wentback to school later as well for
design, when I went back, Ifound that I was there for a
purpose and I and there was alot of young kids there trust me
and I was like, get out of myway.
Like daddy's in the house, I'mhere to learn.
Like don't be silly, Don't be,I'm not going out to park, this
(17:19):
is not about partying for meright literally like were you
there for the same reason whereyou're just like no, I'm same,
no same thing.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
I'm like you guys parents maybe have money to be
messing around you're likemissing class.
I'm like assignment on.
I'm in the evening, I'm doingmy work, I'm turning it in, I'm
getting A's like what do youhave to teach me?
I'm ready to soak it in, likeLike give it to me, give it all
to me.
I love it For sure, for sure.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
So you found the benefit in going back to get
this education right, because Iknow a lot of people don't
necessarily have a quote-unquoteformal education with design.
What other benefits did youfind For someone who might again
, I love people who can listento stories like yours and say,
oh, this might be something thatI want to follow, a path that I
want to follow what otherbenefits did you find
specifically for going back toget a formal education, versus
(18:11):
just someone who said, oh, I'mgoing to hang my shingle because
I love design, which there's noright or wrong in either one of
those of course, right, you'reright, right.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
um, I think mainly the thing that was good for me
was having the ability to talkto professionals who were
already deep in their careerpaths and say to them like no,
really.
Like, how does this work?
Like, what showrooms can I goto?
Like, when you go to market,what are you looking for?
Like, I was uber focused ongraduating with tools to
(18:41):
transition into my business, soI wasn't necessarily having like
chatty conversations.
I was pulling all industryknowledge I could get from my
professors and because I was ofa similar age to them, they were
open with talking to me abouteverything.
Like our last business class, Icame out of that class with my
resale license.
(19:01):
I had opened accounts at thePDC.
Like I was ready at the end ofthat.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Sarah is not playing.
I bet your notebook was.
I bet it was so thick of notesfrom class.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Absolutely.
The first time we went tomarket, I was the only one with
a buyer's badge because I had myresale license and I had gone
on and registered and they werelike oh no, you can't come into
the showroom, but they were likeoh you, you can go, you have
the buyer's badge Look down, I'mready.
Yeah, I was like this is a oncein a lifetime opportunity and
I'm going to take it for allit's worth.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
And you did and you jumped in.
Now you mentioned that youworked for someone else for
around four months or so whenyou went out into the actual
design world.
What were you hoping to gainfrom that?
Was it just experience ofseeing how a firm was operating?
Was it watching someone else inthe throes of a design firm?
What were you hoping to get,and did you get what you were
looking for when you did?
Speaker 2 (19:53):
that I was.
I definitely got what I waslooking for.
I was mainly looking for, like,presentation of pricing.
How are you presenting to yourclients, how are you deciding
what things cost?
Like, what is your markup, ifanything?
Like, what kind ofpresentations are you putting
together for people?
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Let me guess the things they didn't teach you in
school, right?
Maybe, perhaps Right.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
Definitely with the pricing.
Like you know, school is voidof pricing.
They're like design, whatever.
And also I wanted to learninteracting with trades.
They definitely don't teach youthat in design school.
I want to know okay, like Ihave an idea, who do I get to
make it?
How do I find trades that I cantrust, Just all of those types
of things.
And four months was enough forme to get.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Wow, okay, I did the same and mine was about two
years, two and a half years, Iwould say.
When I did it, did you learnmaybe some things not to do?
Just curious during that time.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Absolutely.
Then you're like no.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Sarah will not bring this into her business.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Okay, treated her trades terribly and she was
constantly having to replacethem because, just, it was poor
treatment.
And so the thing that I learnedis to cherish good trades when
you find them, and treat themlike the people that they are,
because, literally, I could haveall of the brilliant ideas in
the world, and if I don't find atrade to execute them in the
(21:19):
manner that I want, it's useless.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I love that.
I love that.
So when you did decide to hangyour shingle and it's like it's
time to open up your firm, andhere we go, we're going in, did
you go in with a definitive planof you know cause?
You obviously love colorfuldesign, you love to bring color
in design.
Was it always that way and wasit always something that you
wanted to do?
Did you know, going in, did youhave this vision and you knew
(21:44):
exactly?
Okay, because talk to me moreabout that, because I know a lot
of designers and I really wishmore people would have a
definitive look, a definitiveoutreach on their design
business, because when we designfor everybody, we really design
for no one.
And then we get so watered down,I feel that we just lose who we
are.
I was at market recently and Iwas on a panel and someone in
(22:06):
the audience asked a questionand she said how do you find
vendors for all the clients whowant all these different styles?
And I said you don't.
You find the vendors forclients in your aesthetic.
She said no.
I love them all I said, itdoesn't matter, you have to stay
in your lane.
So I love that you did knowyour lane, but how did you get
that definitive answer rightaway, because I know a lot of
people still struggle with it.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Well, remember I said I've always been designing and
so I kind of just know what Ilean to.
And my mom and I my mom used tolive in Huntsville.
She retired, she lives in StLucia now but we used to go like
our thing to do was go to like,like Hancock fabric, joanne's
(22:46):
big upholstery shops and justlike, go through and look at the
fabric.
We weren't buying anything.
Sometimes we would, but wewould just go through and look
at the fabrics.
We would buy patterns, we wouldmake dresses.
So it's like I guess mybackground of fabric really like
and fabric can just change.
And plus, you know what I'mfrom the caribbean, like it's.
It's huge on color, like saintcroix, saint thomas they used to
(23:10):
be owned by the dutch and Idon't know if you're familiar
with dutch architecture, but itis bright, it's the pinks, it's
the yellows and the buildings indowntown are like, brightly
colored.
Same in Aruba if you've everbeen to Aruba you've seen those
buildings.
So color is just, has alwaysbeen a thing.
You know, the only thing that Ilike white is I love a white
(23:32):
shirt and I love a white dress.
Like I used to tell people likeI am a white shirt whore.
I have a closet full of shirtsand 95% of them are white.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Really.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Absolutely Okay.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I would have never guessed that about you.
That's so funny, absolutely,yeah, oh, interesting.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I feel like design should be an expression of who
you are as a person.
It should be full of color.
I mean, if you look at nature,it's full of color.
I feel like neutral design isthe stripping away of life.
It's just so blase.
And I think outside of theUnited States there are very few
(24:10):
countries that design in whitelike that.
Everyone is full of rich colors, whether it's their national
costume or the way they do theirhouses.
Like everybody loves colorexcept us.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Well, I think it scares a lot of people.
You know, I think a lot ofpeople don't know how to even
begin with it or how to mix thecolors together.
But, I think my takeaway outsideof the fact that you're very
good at it, but my takeaway isthat you, number one, knew who
you were.
Number two, you stayed true towho you were from the get-go,
from the beginning, and youdidn't try to be someone else
(24:45):
because it would have been veryeasy for you to say, oh,
everyone else is doing this,Everyone else is doing this
other design aesthetic, doingthis other color palette or
whatever.
That's easy, right, Because onsocial media right now, what do
you see?
Right?
It's like scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll scroll.
You can't tell some of themapart, right, but what happens,
(25:06):
sarah?
When you see something that'sdifferent, you stop the scroll.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Right, the scroll stops and it's different.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
You're like, oh, that's nice, yeah, and that's
what you have, and I've evencommented on your stuff before
because it is scroll-stoppingdesign, because I'm like, excuse
me, ma'am, that's not, that wasnot, that is not what I
expected to see today.
It was like gorgeous, right,you know, but but thank you.
But it is because you do it sowell and that comes from a
(25:31):
passion that comes from your,your true, genuine, authentic
interest in that, and I and Itry to hammer that home with
people all the time.
It's just like, please, people,everybody, no matter what your
career, but especially designyou, where we are so creative
and where it is just truly a big, you're taking your heart and
you're laying it right there onthe table in front of everybody,
if that is not a true heart andit's not authentic, then you're
(25:52):
just wasting your time, right.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
You know, usually like and for me, like starting a
design, I usually start witheither wallpaper or fabric and
what I do is I actually just goto the design center.
We only have four floors here,but I just walk every floor, I
go to every showroom and I justgather samples.
And then I come back and I sitand think about what I was told,
(26:18):
what I saw in the consultation,like who this person is, what
were they wearing, what's intheir house already, and then I
just start crafting a story forthem.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Oh, I love that.
I love that you said story.
That's great Because it doesbecome a story that you're
weaving throughout that process.
Right?
Do your clients contact youknowing that you?
Obviously, I hope that they dothat.
You love that.
They love color that you lovecolor because if they're calling
, you're like, do a beige roomfor me.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
You're like I'm not your gal, right?
So usually this is what I do.
If someone contacts me, numberone, I get a free 30 minute call
with them because I want tofeel the vibe yeah like.
Are we going to get along?
What are your expectations?
Have you used a designer before?
Are your budget expectations upto par with the service that
I'm going to provide you?
And every single time that Ihave not done that, it doesn't
(27:09):
work out.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
They're like.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Oh my god, is that?
So I try to adhere to thatreally well and then, believe it
or not, I get most of myclients from Instagram, so they
are already seeing what it isthat I bring to the table.
And even when I don't get one,if it's a referral from another
designer, it's a cold call.
I always send them to go.
I was like go look at myaccount on Instagram, go look at
(27:32):
my website, see what you thinkand then, if you're still
interested, we'll move forward.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
That's great.
Yeah, because randomly it's atire kicker who's like'm just
going to find the best price.
It's like no, no, you need tofind the client who's jiving
with you and the designer, andthe vibe has to be there.
The synergy has to be there,the chemistry, and so I've even
started working into myquestionnaire, into my
conversations what's yourfavorite project that we've done
?
And I make them do homework Iliterally make them do homework,
(27:58):
because I want to know thatthey're not just like trying to
get the cheapest price out there.
What else do you do on theupfront?
Are you clear?
Do you talk about pricing, forinstance?
Do you?
Talk about do you have minimums?
I know you charge for yourconsultations.
I saw that right on yourwebsite, so I love that you do
that.
Are you that transparent andthat clear with your clients
from the beginning, or do youleave a little magic to you know
(28:19):
?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
unveil as you go along.
Um, the only magic I unveilwith them is I I don't give a
pricing until I've done theconsultation, because I just say
to them, like I don't know whatthe work is that's going to be
involved in this project, and ifI give you a price and it's too
high, you might not call me.
And then if I give you a priceand it's too low, then and I
give you another price, thenyou'll you have that first price
set in your mind, and so I justkind of give them a general
idea of cost.
(28:46):
Like I did a kitchen last year.
This is how much the design feewas for it.
If you're comfortable with that, then let's keep talking.
If not, maybe you think aboutit.
Maybe we don't do this.
Just I'm pretty transparent.
I'm not transparent where mypricing is concerned, like some
designers are like I'm costtransparent.
I'm not transparent where mypricing is concerned, like some
designers are like, oh, I'm costplus 20.
I don't tell people what that?
(29:06):
is when I go into Target I don'tknow what Target is upcharging.
That's not my business.
What is my business is theprice that's on the tag, and so
same with me.
I say, hey, what I charge youfor is what I charge you for.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
What I do love that you just said is that you have,
you know your data and that youknow that you did this kitchen
that costs X and you did thisbathroom that costs Y, and you
can pull that out when you'respeaking with clients, and I
think that is just invaluableinformation to be able to relate
that back to people, becauseyou know there are very few
projects that are 100% differentthan what we've done before.
(29:42):
Right, I mean, there are some,but you can always find some
sort of like oh that's the Smithproject, or oh, that's the.
Jones project right and it'snice to have that and I wish
more people would just sort ofstop and we tend to just go to
the next project right Withoutthinking about the past projects
.
And if we just stopped and didthat little review of those past
?
ones we be like oh yes, let'smake some notes and commit that
(30:03):
to memory, right?
Exactly does that help people?
Does that bring their guarddown, or are some people like
hell?
No, I'm moving on.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
See you later, alligator and then it's a bit of
both the people who really.
There are people who have donea bit of research before they
reach out to you, like they knowa general idea.
So once I tell them, they're'relike okay, yeah, that was along
the line of what I was thinking.
And then there are other peoplewho are like like I just had a
lady and she was like, oh, Ithought the $500 for
(30:31):
consultation was the cost thatyou were going to charge me to
do the design.
I was like I'm designing fourrooms for you.
Like no, ma'am, I'm like wow,and that was one of the people
that I hadn't had the 30 minutefree conversation with.
She was a referral and she justcalled me up out of the blue
and I didn't at the time.
(30:52):
She called me.
I don't know I was doingsomething.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
I didn't take the time to talk her through it and
so, yeah, People tend to jump toconclusions, I find you know,
until I've said this before.
But I remember doing a big,huge home in-home consultation.
It was in Beverly Hills and itwas a huge, huge house and I did
the consultation and it wasbefore I started explaining
things before, kind of whatyou're saying right and I do the
(31:15):
consultation.
he paid for the consultation, ofcourse, and then it was over
and I sent over the proposal andI think it was like 50,000, and
he was like, oh, I thought thiswas like 50 bucks an hour,
that's what I Googled.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
And I was like, no, I don't, I'm sorry, I don't know
who you've been Googling Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
The standards across our industry are so strange and
so up and down and so manypeople are afraid to talk about
money, and then that leadsclients to say, oh, I'm just
going to, either you know,google something that's
incorrect or make up somethingthat I feel is correct.
Right such as oh all designerspass along their pricing right.
That's another misconceptionthat people have.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
I think absolutely yeah I mean, let's not get it
twisted.
It is not comfortable to talkabout the budget, it absolutely
is not.
But it's more uncomfortable togo in and get excited about the
project and then for them to belike no, I'm like, even though
you just paid for these last twohours, I still wasted these two
hours.
There are people who haveconsultation as their business
model and they're okay, justdoing consultation.
(32:12):
I'm going out to theconsultation so I can book the
job.
So it's kind of disappointingwhen you're like, wow, this
would have been an amazingproject.
And here we are.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Yeah, yeah, your plan is to have it move on to the
next phase, whether it be a fullscale design or renovation or
new build or whatever.
But yeah, you're right Somepeople have it as part of their
business model of fiveconsultations per week, right
yeah.
Yeah, I'm with you.
I sort of get invested in it.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
I'm like, oh, the thing in my mouth salivating
right, Right.
I'm already like, based on whatthey're telling me, I'm already
like I know where I need toorder some of this and this.
I'm thinking things.
And then they're like, oh, isthat how much?
And I explained it to herbecause this was a retired OB
and I said it's just like cominginto your office for an office
(33:03):
visit.
That's one cost, but if I haveto do a procedure with you, I
got to pay for that.
Like there's another largercost to the procedure.
So yeah, no, that's brilliant.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I love that.
I love that you sort of took itand turned it so that she can
understand it in her own words.
And I think a lot of times,designers, we feel like we're
just creatives and we're notsalespeople, but we're always,
we're always selling, and I tryto replace the word selling with
serving it in my head If I feellike I'm serving that person,
really, truly giving themsomething of value, giving them
something that's going to changetheir lives and you've probably
(33:37):
seen where clients cry when youdo the reveal right.
You know you've seen how itreally is serving.
It makes a difference in livesand I try to always go back to
that when I'm giving the price,when I'm talking about something
or when I'm giving this big sixfigure proposal to a client for
design fee.
Okay, here you go.
This is $110,000, but here'swhat you're going to get out of
this.
But that's what I try to alwaysremember is like you're giving
(33:59):
them something so valuable thatno one else could give them, and
that is something that youtruly are serving them with.
Have you had to change anythingover the years where you're
like, oh, yeah, okay, absolutely.
You started one way and thenyou're like, oh Sarah, let me
change this, because then maybethis wasn't working so well.
(34:19):
Anything come to mind alongthat route?
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Let me tell you something.
My first client paid $125 formy consultation and I designed
their kitchen, dining room andfamily room for $1,750.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
$1,750?
Speaker 2 (34:37):
$1,750.
Oh, because I did not know.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Damn you, oh, Because I did not know.
Damn you fit him.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
That has definitely changed, rather than the money.
Listen every time, I thinkabout it.
And I didn't even get anyprofessional pictures at the end
of it because I didn't know, Ididn't even think about that.
And then, shortly after that, Istarted listening to Luann's
podcast and then they were likethis is kind of how he has to do
(35:09):
it and I was like dang, Imissed the opportunity because
the kitchen was really good.
But things that I've changed.
That 30 minute free call, Ididn't have that in the
beginning.
I used to chart let people goahead.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Can I ask you about that before you jump onto that,
Because some people do 10minutes, some people do 15.
Do you call it a discovery call?
What do you call it First ofall?
What do you call that call forpeople?
Do you have a name for it?
Yeah, free 30 minute call.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Okay, that's exactly what it says.
Okay, perfect, perfect.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
And then I found that 30 minutes is the happy
timeframe for you where you canget enough information, because
some people stop at 15, somepeople stop at 20.
It's always interesting to hearthe time frame that people have
.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
I do 30 because, like , at the beginning I get them to
talk to me about their projectand how they arrived at wanting
to use me.
Then I use about another 10 to15 minutes talking about my
procedure and how it goes Okay,and at the end I let them ask me
any questions that they want.
I use that time like we've beentalking now I'm joking around
with them and then I just say tothem like if you're still
(36:09):
interested, I'll send you a linkto book the consultation.
Most people say yes, eventhough some people don't.
But it just kind of puts themat a choice point and I find
like 30 minutes is perfect.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Okay, good, good to know, Good to know.
I always find it interestingbecause sometimes you say 15 and
it ends up being 30 anyway.
So it's always just, I guessit's nice just to be, and some
people are afraid to give awaytoo much information on that
quote, unquote, free call, butyou have to give enough to
entice them, right, right, yeah,yeah, okay, anyway, sorry, you
were saying other things thatyou changed in your business.
(36:42):
You know I change a lot ofstuff, like I'm not responsible
for your kids in the house whenI'm there doing your renovation,
you know.
I mean all kinds of things.
Do you have a long, lengthyagreement?
Have you changed that?
I'm sure you've changed thingsin your agreement over the years
.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
I've changed things in my agreement but honestly, my
agreement stays around the same.
What I have done is changethings when things happen from a
business perspective, like ifoh shoot, I didn't have a
coverage for this, then I put itin my contract.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, yeah, it's always nice to revisit it after
a project is over.
I find to say, oh, what did wemiss during this project?
Not just your agreement, butyour processes, right?
Just?
Things that went along andmaybe pricing.
You know, remember that timewhen tariffs were a thing and
tariffs were all, and when theykind of still are, but when they
were literally just like, everyday you got another email like
(37:32):
10% here, 5% there, and it waslike, oh, my God.
So like it was, like I wasalways, you know, trying to keep
up to date with that, so it'salways good for everybody to
just stay on top of all of thosethings, and really you can't
just ever say this is myagreement this is it.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah, this is my process.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
I'm done with it.
This is my business for thenext 10 years.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
I'm done with no, no, no, no, no, no, if you're going
to truly be a business owner.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
You really do have to have to evolve a pulse of that
right.
So you said something to me andI'm going to read it verbatim
and I love it.
I want you to explain toeverybody what you meant by that
.
You said have you really doneyour job as a designer if you
don't design something for yourclient that is outside of the
expectations that they had forthe project?
So tell me what you meant bythat, so that other people can
(38:16):
maybe glean something from that.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Okay.
So in the beginning I used toask people to send me their
Pinterest boards and then they'dbe like I like this sofa, I
like this, I like that.
So basically, they saw anotherdesigner's design and kind of
wanted me to recreate it.
Right, and I just said tomyself, like I don't want people
to know what it is I'mdesigning for them, because if
(38:40):
that's the case, they could kindof just do it themselves.
And then I become like thesourcing person.
What I want is a design that'sthat, while it's true to who
they are, I want it to blowtheir mind.
I want them to be like I neverwould have thought about this,
but this is so amazing, this isso freaking good.
Like.
(39:01):
I even want there to be alittle bit of sometimes
convincing that I have to dowith them to get them outside of
the box of design that they'veplaced themselves in.
You know, like I know youwouldn't ordinarily do this, but
look at how good the flow ofthis will be.
And once they like see it, theyget it, and when it's done,
(39:23):
they're always like.
My friends came over here, theycouldn't believe it.
They were like it looks likeyou, but I know you could have
never done this and that's theexperience I want to live them
like.
I'm not.
I'm not flipping houses, youknow.
I don't want to have a massappeal, I don't.
I tell them, I don't wantanyone to come to your house and
be like oh yeah, I saw thatsofa at Pottery Barn.
(39:43):
Like no shade on Pottery Barn.
But I want them to have like acompletely unique experience in
their home.
I want them to come down in 10years and be like, even though
this design is dated, it's stillso amazing.
And I might need to.
You know just some things, butI can't believe.
I live here.
This is my house, this is mylife.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah, and it's really probably no fault of the
clients, right?
They only know what they knowright, it's not their fault.
They know what they see.
They see that same scroll thatwe see right when we're looking
through, seeing the same thingExactly.
Exactly, I mean there are a fewpeople that even have, you know
, some television shows thatwill go unnamed.
That I'm just like oh my.
God, Literally literally.
(40:22):
This is like cardboard cutoutof what you did last week and
what you did the week before andwhat you did the week before,
absolutely.
And it's like, oh my God.
But all right, let's just keepon going with this and making
bank from it.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Right, right, exactly , exactly.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
For them anyway.
And then you know all of us outthere who are trying to be
different.
People look at us with theirhead kind of turned sideways
sometimes Right.
Until you find that rightclient who's like, oh my God, I
get it, I get it, I understandit and.
I understand it.
And that is, when do you feel avalidation at that point, of a
kinship, of a synergy with thatclient, when you're like, oh my
God, they get me.
It sort of feels great, doesn'tit?
(40:59):
It feels, great it feels greatfor me on both sides, because it
feels great for me, but then Ifeel happy for them.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Oh, I love that.
Oh, my God, you're about to getsuch an amazing design because
you have enough trust to let medo the thing that I do.
Like I'm not beingbraggadocious or whatever, but
I'm an amazing designer and theextents of it have not been seen
right.
But it's like when someone letsme do my thing, the thing that
(41:34):
I can bring to you, yeah, it'llbe amazing.
I love it.
Oh, what does that mean?
That means I'm probably nevergoing to have as many clients as
other designers and maybe Ihave to supplement my income
with something else because I'mnot getting as many clients in a
row.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
But it's worth it to me, no, I think you just need to
charge more for the clients youare getting, and then we're
going to have fewer clients, butwe'll talk about that later.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
You're right.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
You're right Because you are good and I want you to
charge more.
So then we're going to getfewer clients and just make even
more money.
But you mentioned a word that Ithink is really important and
that is trust, and trust doesn'thappen, obviously, immediately
when we're trying to get aclient to either listen to a
design plan that we have or tospend a certain amount of money.
Do you have any ways that youwould lend some advice to people
(42:23):
for gaining trust with a client, or do you have something that
you do, a process that you havefor getting that trust with a
client?
Because I know it doesn'thappen right away and I think it
does take time.
But what do you do?
How do you get a?
Speaker 2 (42:38):
client to trust you, to take these chances with color
and with risky design in theireyes, Wow.
Well, you know what?
Sometimes my clients ask me forreferences and I give them and
I just say like here call thesepeople, find out what their
experience was.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Do you do mood boards , for instance, or do you do a
full design plan?
How do you let them know likeeverything's going?
Speaker 2 (42:50):
to work out okay in the end, like how do you?
Speaker 1 (42:52):
say yeah, that's what I guess is what I'm trying to
say, like, okay, these colorsare going to be gorgeous
together okay here's why youshould trust me with this.
How do you do that?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
okay.
So I, when I'm doing apresentation, I have three,
three phases of it.
I have the mood board where I'mshowing them everything, then I
have the actual physicalsamples and I try to get samples
of every single thing that I'mbringing as an option in terms
of like to the fact, like I havea relationship with my former
(43:21):
Kohler rep where I'll be likeI'm using this faucet Do you
have one that I can borrow tobring to the clients?
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Even a faucet, okay.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Absolutely, and metal samples from all my lighting
companies that I can get.
I'm just bringing samples ofeverything because I want them
to touch it, I want them to seehow it goes with everything, and
then I always make a SketchUpmodel that incorporates
everything that I'm presentingso that they can see it in their
room and see what it's going tolook like.
(43:49):
I used to do renders.
I don't do them so much anymore, I just use SketchUp and,
honestly, if I could figure outhow to use SketchUp with Oculus,
I'd be done.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
I have a feeling there's a new pathway that Sarah
Wilson is going to be workingon Right, right, right In your
free time.
Just come up with a brand newsoftware system that we can all
use.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
If you don't mind, Come up with a brand new
software system that we can alluse, if you don't mind, if you
can just do that Sure, I'm on it.
Don't you have some free?
Speaker 1 (44:20):
time between like 2 and 5 am that you can devote to
this, and I think too, sarah,probably the other ingredient
that you're not mentioning hereis that energy and that passion
that you're probably emotingwhen you're doing the
presentation, because I findwhen a designer is truly excited
about a presentation, youalmost get goosebumps when
you're presenting it to a client, right, and do you find that
that is that last ingredientthat puts it over the top to get
(44:41):
them to buy into the designplan?
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yeah, because you know how a lot of times people
are like, oh I wouldn't thinkabout that, but wow, I could see
how you put it together, Icould see how good it is or like
, if they're not like, okay.
So I was working for a builderrecently.
It didn't work out, but therewas a client who it was his
mom's house Wallpaper everywhere.
He was like I hate wallpaper.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
I'm crying.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
But in my presentation I brought some
wallpaper and I said to them,like okay, your foyer, there's
nothing fun going on in here.
Like, why don't we just put alittle bit of wallpaper on the
ceiling Then, that way you don'tfeel overwhelmed with it?
But it's just like, and he waslike.
So I said I have threewallpapers here and we're just
going to let you pick which oneyou like.
(45:30):
And he ended up picking onethat he really, really liked.
He was like I never would havethought that I would be here and
it's on their ceiling.
So I think that my passion forit, I'm like it's just a little
something.
It's just a little somethinglike when someone comes into
your house and they look up,they're like oh wow, that's
unexpected.
I'm like you don't have to gocrazy with it everywhere, but
(45:59):
just a little hint of it.
And he was like yeah, I couldsee that.
So I just think like I talk topeople's emotions as opposed to
their logical brain.
And sometimes people are likewell, how is this going to
happen?
And I say hey, hey, hey, hey,hey, just not our conversation
to have Like my husband is myelectrician.
And they'll be like oh, theselights, how's that going to
happen.
I'm like hey, hey, hey, hey,that's between the electrician
and the work.
We don't worry about thosetypes of things.
We are here for the good times,the good looking things, and we
let the trades worry about howthey're going to figure out how
(46:19):
it's going to be done.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
And then they're like okay, Sarah says it's okay, so
I'm going to be with it.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
I'm like, if you really really want to know, have
that conversation with theelectrician.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
I'm not the person to tell you about that, because
that's not my expertise.
I love it.
I love it.
Speaking of trades and vendors,you mentioned earlier that you
like to keep a nice, solidrelationship with them and you
found that that's helped youover the years, it sounds like,
with your company and withgrowing your business and so
forth.
What are the keys to a goodrelationship with a vendor or
with a trades person, and whathave you found that that has
done to help you grow yourbusiness?
Speaker 2 (46:56):
Okay, let's talk about trades.
I always am very respectful ofmy trades.
If I say I'm going to besomewhere at a certain time, I'm
going to be there at a certaintime.
If they ask me to do something,I'm going to do it.
I always say to them, like I'mproposing something to you,
You're the expert.
Tell me if it can or cannot bedone, Like I never assume that
(47:17):
it can be done.
And then I also say like okay,well, can we talk through this
and see if we can come up?
So I kind of make them part ofthe process, so they're not just
like my labor, Like I kind ofget them invested also in the
projects.
And number two, my trade vendorshave a contract with the
clients and not with me.
I say to them, number one, I'mnot a GC, but number two, like
I'm not going to charge theclients more on your labor that
(47:39):
I have nothing to do with.
So they have freedom to talk tothe client about everything.
But we've worked together somuch that I don't ever feel like
they're trying to steal myclients.
And, honestly, more often thannot they get more work from the
clients.
Oh, since you're here, can youdo this and I don't have any
problem with that.
I mean, like they want to eattoo, right, and so, since I'm
not upcharging anything, there'sno like, oh no, if they talk to
(48:02):
the client, they'll know thatthe client will know that I'm
charging them more for thislabor.
It's transparent all the wayacross.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Do you find that the trades scratch your back too and
send business your way?
Because sometimes, for mepersonally, I find it tends to
be a one-way street sometimes.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
It is Okay.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
And that really annoys me frankly, sometimes,
where I'm like, hey, morebusiness for you, more business
for you, and I'm like really no,one's asked for a designer.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Not one, not one person has asked for a designer
Like come on, come on now, comeon.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
I don't buy that, so I I didn't know if anybody else
was having that same experienceI.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
I think there I've only had one trade that did it
the opposite, as my windowtreatment lady when I lived in
california.
She was great about um sendingbusiness my way.
But no, I think it's because ofthe way I run my business.
Even though I'm not a g, I runmy projects like a GC, and so I
get the client first and then Isecure the trades.
(48:56):
So I don't know.
I don't know how they're doingI don't get much business that
way.
But now my vendors, that's adifferent story.
I get business from my vendors.
They'll be like, hey, there'ssomeone in your area looking for
a designer, do you want to beconsidered?
But I interact with my vendorsa lot Like even though I'm a
solo firm.
I get them here to my homeoffice to do all their
(49:17):
presentations.
I get the samples.
When they have events, I'm likebe sure to invite me.
So I keep very closerelationships with my vendors
and if I have an opportunity todisplay their product in like a
new and innovative way, I'malways willing to like pass
pictures along so that they canput it wherever they want to put
it, because I just feel like myvendors are willing to bend
(49:39):
over backwards for me, more sothan I find with other people.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
The rep for that company really is the lifeline
to the product, to the company,to the person at the top of the
chain right, and so it's nice tokeep that relationship strong
and secure and to keep itwell-bonded.
I think you do a great job withthat and I go to market and I'm
like, oh, sarah has a piecehere in this showroom.
I'm like, okay, well, okay,sarah designed another piece, so
(50:03):
for people and I love it andthey're beautiful and you seem
to have nurtured thoserelationships in a way that have
gotten you some product designs, and I know a lot of people
dream about having products fromvendors, and I'm sure it's
vendors that you love workingwith right, right yeah.
So how do you?
How did you get that going?
What did that process look like?
Would you recommend otherpeople do it?
You know all the goody goodydetails of that.
(50:25):
That people who might want toentertain that idea tell them
about the behind the scenes ofthat process for you, because
it's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
Honestly, I have always been a just ask person.
So let me say like, forinstance, I did the one room
challenge and I pay for verylittle in the room because I
just asked.
I asked everybody and whensomeone said no, I just asked
someone else like hey, I loveyour product, I've been using it
.
Here is some examples of howI've used it.
I'm doing this.
(50:51):
There's a spotlight on it.
I'd love to showcase yourproduct would you be interested
in, even if it's a discount orwhatever.
And so I take the same tackwhen I'm approaching someone for
product, like hey, I reallylove your product.
I love to design furniture.
I'm probably not doing it rightBecause I usually I mean, it's
just a piece that I don't getany monetary thing on it, so
(51:12):
there's probably a piece that'smissing.
So I don't know if I'd use meas an example, but I just say
like hey, I love your product.
I'd love to do somecollaboration with you.
We've done a lot of business inthe past.
Would you be interested?
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Well, okay, that's very simple, that's very easy.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Okay, see, there are people listening don't, don't
wait.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
I mean sometimes just asking for that thing you want
or that thing that you need, isjust that answer?
Okay, so now you need to justask for the monetary, some money
, you're right, you're right,you're right.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
I mean I put someone at kbiz I'm not gonna say who it
is, we're not done with theyeah negotiation but I just said
like, hey, I you guys know thatI use your product almost
exclusively.
I'm always all over Instagramwith you.
I just started selling cabinets.
I'd like to have like a capsulecollection to present to my
(52:03):
cabinet company.
I couldn't think of a bettercompany I'd love to do that with
, and immediately they were likeabsolutely.
And then started brainstormingways that we could collaborate
with each other.
So sometime maybe next KBizthere'll be a collection of mine
out there on the floor.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
Fabulous, fabulous.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
I think if you come in well-prepared and with
examples and a lot of people,just a lot of companies even,
just want somebody to come inwith not only just the concept
but just a plan in place I findwhen I've done licensing it's
like, okay, you come in with aplan in place.
Here's the product.
Here's how I want to market it,here's the idea I have behind
it, and it's a solid plan.
They're likely to say yes tothat and then, if not, as you
(52:41):
say, just move on to the nextperson.
To the next person, that's justthe way it is, because it's a
good plan.
That's how I got the bookpublished, but it was like the
same chapter over and, over andover.
Speaker 2 (52:59):
But you know, no one else knew that it was just a
good chapter.
They didn't take it.
So, okay, yeah, no, that'sbrilliant yeah.
Speaker 1 (53:03):
You don't rest on your any sort of laurel at all.
You really just jump out thereand when you want something, you
go for it, and I think thatthat is such a lesson to be
learned.
What's new Other than this,this little carrot that you just
dangled in front of us?
You have any new excitingthings that you have that you
want to do down the road,anything that you want to do to
grow your company, any otherexpansions or anything?
(53:23):
What do you have?
I feel like there's somethingon your brain.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
Honestly, my new thing right now is this cabinet
line, because I feel like thatis one arena of my business.
I had no idea what cabinetrycosts.
Like you go somewhere andsomeone gives you a price and
then you're like, is thereenough margin for me to price
higher, is there not?
And I was like I think I wantto get into that because,
(53:46):
honestly, I like to design stuffdifferent for my clients and a
lot of times, unless you'regoing like full custom, which
not everyone can afford, thenyou can't do the thing that you
really want to do.
And so now this is just metaking it up another level of
customization for my clients,whether it's going to be like
color, whether it's like theactual design.
(54:06):
And the cabinet company that Ipartner with is fabulous as far
from a custom standpoint andthey make the process so easy
Like I've done cabinetry enoughthat I've already designed a
couple of kitchens with them andI really just jumped on the
software and started doing it.
To tell you the honest truth,this is what I tell my husband I
(54:26):
love creativity and that's justacross the board.
Like I'm looking for a weldingclass, I want to take glass
blowing.
I've done pottery and when Idid the pottery, the girl was
like, oh wow, you're really good.
Have you done pottery before?
I'm like no, I just I lovecreativity, and so for me, it's
just about being able to jump inand do something.
(54:46):
I'm probably going to findsomething this year.
Actually, this year is my yearof travel.
I'm booking trips.
I want to do a lot ofinternational travel and go and
see things.
I would love to open a littleshop that I didn't have to sit
in.
I don't want to sit in there.
But just like sitting stillproviding like unique things
that I found on my travels andintegrating them into people's
(55:07):
spaces for them, just likehere's a piece of pottery, like
something with a story behind it.
So, yeah, like I'm goingsomewhere in June, july, august,
september, october.
I got to find something forNovember and December, but yeah,
this is my year to just likereally get out and travel.
I just renewed my passport, I'mready.
Speaker 1 (55:27):
When you look at it that way, creativity has no
boundary right.
It is completely open.
And then so many times, I thinkwe just get into a rut,
especially when we're busy, ofjust doing the same thing over
and over and over, and we don'tgive ourselves time to
experiment and to learn and toreally give ourselves time to,
you know, be overwhelmed and tolove and to just learn from all
(55:48):
these different places.
Right?
I just think that that is whatyou're giving yourself time to
do is to truly grow from theseexperiences, and I think that is
what's going to make you comeback from all this travel and
have all kinds of other ideasand do all kinds of other
fabulous things, and then we'regonna be like all right, Sarah,
calm down now.
We've done it, you know, onestep at a time.
Speaker 2 (56:06):
That's what you know like people are always asking me
like, oh, do you want to growyour firm?
And I'm like, absolutely not.
Like I'm going to be solo tillI die, because I like the
freedom of being solo.
It's great to have a staff, butthen it's you're kind of like
tying yourself down to a place.
Like now like there's a certainamount of overhead that I have
(56:26):
to keep because I have staff.
There's a certain schedule thatI have to keep.
Like me, now I'm on theschedule of Sarah.
I don't like to work on Fridays.
I don't work on Fridays.
I never work on the weekends.
If I travel, I take my laptopso that if there is work to be
done, I can take care of it inthe morning.
But I just I'm at the age likeI raised my kid.
(56:46):
He's an adult.
I just want to be free to.
Oh hey, do you want to go dothis?
And I can just go do it.
Speaker 1 (56:53):
Do you as a solopreneur, do you limit the
number of projects that you doto try to keep that balance, or
do you take on everything that'sinspiring to you?
Speaker 2 (57:01):
To be honest, I take on everything that's inspiring
to me, but there is a certainlimit after a while where I'm
like, okay, I can't be effectiveif I take on more, because I am
a solopreneur, that means I'mthe person who has to go to look
at each job site, and so Ican't get crazy because I can't
spend every day of every week ata job site.
(57:23):
I think I did like six in 22,six really large ones, and it
was a lot because they were kindof all going at the same time
and I take projects within anhour radius of me, which in this
area is a lot, and so I spent alot of time on the road going
from project to project toproject, and I guess I'm
(57:43):
limiting that now.
I don't want to be.
That was a little much.
Speaker 1 (57:46):
It was great, but it was a little much I can see how
it would be and no outside helpfrom any virtual assistance,
something like that for youeither.
Just it's you, the tradespeopleand the vendors, basically.
And my sister on the accountand your sister on the
accounting side, right, right,right, right.
Well, I always say when I was asolopreneur back in the day, I
(58:06):
always used the term we anyway,because there always is a we.
There always, literally, is ateam of people around you, no
matter if you have one person inyour home office or 10 people
in your big office.
whatever, it is a team effort,no matter how you look at it
Right but.
I think that's inspiring topeople to see that a solopreneur
can take on this scale ofprojects, can take on their
business.
The way that you do can changelives.
(58:28):
The way that you do can just beso successful.
The way that you are, you're atrue inspiration.
I love your projects.
Speaker 2 (58:34):
I love you you know that, yeah we just have the best
time.
Speaker 1 (58:38):
So tell everybody absolutely where they can find
you online and see more of yourbeautiful things and you usually
most of the trade shows as well.
We usually pop up there as well, so they can find you there
typically, but online where canthey find you?
Speaker 2 (58:52):
I'm online everywhere , everywhere, at Chancelry,
which I'm sure John is going toput in the notes because it's
hard to spell yes, and I'm goingto tell you the story about
that.
But I'm on Instagram, I'm onFacebook, I'm on Pinterest and,
of course, my website, and Ihave a sprinkling of podcasts
here and there.
Speaker 1 (59:12):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, but I do, before we do close out
, I do want to know the quickkind of reasoning behind the
name of your business.
Speaker 2 (59:19):
Okay.
So my family, my mom and mysisters and I were all very
close and once upon a time Ilived in Alabama do not
recommend zero of 10.
But every I'm seven, theoffensive.
So every Friday night we wouldbe at my mom's house, we'd be
sitting around, we have dinnerand then we just chat and we all
have boys, and so our boys andeverything.
(59:40):
And one Friday night my momsaid I have a name for a
business.
If any of you guys decide thatyou want to go into business,
then we're like Okay, well, whatis it?
And she said chancery.
We're like, okay, where'swhat's that?
So my older sister name ischantal, it's french, my name's
sarah and my youngest sister israchel, so chancery.
It's like I love that, sothat's it.
Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
And so, like my little sister with her
accounting, business is chanceryconsulting it's beautiful, and
really it's such a lovely namenow that I know the history
behind it and it means even more, so kudos to your mom for that
right.
Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
She's trying to get royalties.
Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
The check is in the mail.
Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Or not.
Except now no, well, sarah,this has been so much fun.
Thank you so much fun.
Thank you so much for takingthe time out today.
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
I loved it.
I loved it and go and checkSarah out online and I will put
all the information, of course,in the show notes and I will see
you soon, Sarah.
Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
All right, bye Thanks .
Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Thanks for sticking with me to the end of the
Designer Within podcast.
It means the world to me.
If you're ready to dive deeperinto the topics that we've
discussed here, be sure to checkout my online coaching and
courses program,DesignSuccessAcademycom.
Here I will teach youeverything you need to know to
run your interior designbusiness, from starting the
project all the way to the end,including marketing and pricing
(01:01:11):
your services for profit.
And for more information onthis podcast, including how to
be a guest or my design servicesin general, go to JohnMcClainco
.
That's JohnMcClainco.
See you soon, friend.
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