What does authentic leadership look like, and how can it change our lives? Ponder this as you join me and Kathy Eastwood, CEO and founder of E Equals Why, in a transformational discussion about leadership, self-discovery, and personal growth. Kathy gives us a glimpse into her journey from corporate America to creating a leadership framework aimed at eradicating bad management. As an overachiever, she chronicles her struggle to align her values with her goals, revealing how a year off led her to redefine her path and become a 'player' in her life.
Drawing from our frank conversations, we dig deep into the fear of change and the power of choice. Kathy shares her experience of a young marriage, the fear of failure, and the ultimate liberation she found in redefining her life narrative. Together, we lift the lid on the elusive 8% who are successful at achieving their goals and how intrinsic changes can help you join this elite group. We also delve into the E3 Leadership Framework and its power to help you prioritize and execute change in your own life.
As our conversation unravels, we exchange thoughts on managing self-doubt and the transformative power of personal growth. Kathy shares the 'Miracle Morning' routine, a testament to the significance of self-care in the realm of leadership. She also shares her experience with the EQi 2.0 assessment. We wrap up with a thought-provoking exploration of self-leadership and the courage to speak up, highlighting the importance of continuous learning in our leadership journeys. This conversation is not just about leadership, it’s about learning how to manage ourselves to achieve our goals. The insights here are invaluable for leaders and anyone seeking to live a more authentic and fulfilled life.
E3 Leadership Bootcamp:
Register here - https://bit.ly/E3Bootcamp
Discount Code: MEINC10
Kathy's Contact:
Linkedin - linkedin.com/in/kathyeastwood
Website - eequalswhy.com
Email - keastwood@eequalswhy.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Okay, so super excited for today's episode long
awaited.
Today with me is my very, verydear friend, kathy Eastwood.
Kathy is the CEO and founder ofE-EqualsY.
E-equalsy is a leadershipdevelopment company focused on
how leadership is viewed,delivered and measured.
(00:27):
Kathy, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Thanks for having me, Nigel.
I'm excited to be here.
It has been a long journey forus to finally get here.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
It has been a long journey for us to get to this
point.
I always like to start, beforewe jump in, with the backstory
of what makes the guest on thepodcast so special and so
genuine, at least why I'mputting forward these
conversations.
So Kathy and I met in 2019.
We met again.
(00:59):
It seems like I'm always inGrenada for a funeral, but I was
there for my granddad's funeral.
I just wanted to take a break.
I think I was preparing theeulogy that day.
I wanted just to take a break,get some fresh air.
I walked out and then Kathy andour friend Natalie.
They were at the same hotel, soI passed by.
(01:19):
I followed the first time and Ihad a superficial conversation,
but I was just keeping moving inmy head.
If you've listened to much ofthe podcast, you'd hear me note
that I'm an introvert in manyways, so I have to be mindful to
get out of my head when I'm inthe world right.
So that was the first time andthen throughout that day, we
(01:40):
kept bumping into each other.
I think we were on one end ofthe beach, moved to the next end
of the beach.
I was having lunch with myuncle and there was Nat and
Kathy again.
That evening we ended up in thereception Was it the guest
reception?
The cocktail, yeah right, yeah.
By the pool, yeah right.
(02:01):
And we started the conversationand we went a little bit deeper
and I think that's when Kathyfirst expressed her distress
about me living in New Jersey,right.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yeah, I think I apologized.
Yeah, you apologized.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
But then, as we talked a little bit, her first
comment to act to me is you'rean a-hole.
And I was like why am I ana-hole?
She's like why would you chooseto show people one side of
yourself when you're thistotally different person?
And, kathy, what was thatexperience?
Because that's where we'llstart, because every time I
(02:38):
think about that, I think thatis, by my standards, how any
good relationship should start.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Being completely honest, you're an a-hole.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, right, but what was that experience?
What did you start with BeforeI tell everyone, or share with
everyone, what it's blossomedinto?
Right, so go ahead.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Well, I just really get upset when someone can't
live their genuine self andthey're putting on an air to be
someone else.
And I was like you're wastingyour life and why would you do
that?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Well, what did you think?
What air do you think I wasputting on?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, You're just trying.
I felt you're just trying towell, for a lot of people it
would come across as you'retrying to prove yourself being
better than you are.
For me, I thought there wassomething more there, and that's
what upset me, because therewas just being able to have the
conversation with you.
I'm like there's more there andyou're not letting me see it
(03:40):
and I want to know more.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
And that's why I called you on it, but I do
believe that and maybe it issomething that goes like I don't
believe that everyone genuinelycares, so therefore, you
shouldn't genuinely let everyonein, right?
If it's something as simple ashow many people how often do you
hear someone genuinely say howwas your day or how are you?
And, as we get older, the waythat friendships occur and a lot
(04:05):
of those things, it is in a waywhere people don't necessarily
always want to see us, right,we're all caught up in what
we're doing.
So it's usually I think I wascoming in my lived experiences
that people generally don't care.
They just care of being someonebeing polite.
Hey, you're at my country oryou're in my country, Check this
(04:25):
out.
This is pretty cool.
Have you seen this, right?
The very, very surfaceconversation?
But, needless to say, sincethat day, we've actually we've
met once a week, every week,since October 28 of 2019, right,
(04:47):
I'm actually getting goosebumpsbecause I'm thinking about it
and really, do you have thatconsistency?
And I think in the group or thementoring group that we started
in 2020 or so, like, we meetoften, but you're probably one
of the few people who we've hadthese conversations, you know
consistently right, and you'veactually had some really mind
shifting and life altering atleast from my perspective
(05:11):
conversations with me.
I remember I was going into adifficult conversation at my
employer at that time and hesaid to me what is your
objective for this meeting?
And then you're like, okay,remember that you were like
everyone else will want to talkabout how they feel.
And feelings are just anemotional response and it feels
(05:34):
good in the moment, but it's notgoing to get you any closer to
the objectives and the outcomesthat you're seeking.
And that was the first timethat someone had said it to me
in that way that I was like,okay, wow, I get it and I was
able to get everything I neededfrom that conversation, but I
didn't get the release, theemotional release of I just
(05:56):
dumped all my problems ontosomeone and now I feel better
and we don't have any directionto go in.
But so, Kathy, I appreciate youin so many way.
My dearest friends now, and Iam so excited for the audience
to hear of some of the insightsand how you found your way to
this place and what you'repassionate about.
So where we start with everyone, if you don't mind, who is
(06:20):
Kathy Eastwood?
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Well, you've done my.
You've worked with me on my EQI.
You know this is the hardestquestion that you're asking me,
and starting with because myself-regard is probably one of
my lowest EQI elements oftalking about myself.
I have a lot of self-doubt, butwith that I'm going to power
through and tell you a littlebit more about me.
(06:44):
I am a nurturing driver is mytagline and something I start
with when I introduce myself toa lot of people.
It's taken me a long time tofigure out who I am, what I
stand for, what I'm passionateabout, and when I look at that
tagline and being a nurturingdriver, it sums up a lot of who
(07:05):
I am.
I'm someone that loves to getthings done.
I like to be in the 8% thataccomplish things, but the way I
do it is caring about people.
So I am an Ares, like someothers that are on this call
with me, and I am driven.
You know I'm a bit of anoverachiever and I love to work
(07:29):
with other people and help themget to where they want to be as
well, and so I love to connectto people and help work together
to get to where I'm goals.
So that's kind of who I am atthe core and it's really been a
journey for me and how I got tostarting my business, e equals Y
(07:50):
, because it all started in 17.
So a couple of years before wemet Nigel, I took some time off
and hopefully we'll get a chanceto talk about Stupid Poopyhead
a little bit because he was acatalyst in my life but I left
corporate America and took ayear off to figure out who I am,
(08:11):
what I want, what I need, wheream I going to get to, and that
really helped put everything inperspective for me.
It forced me to go back and lookat my life and define my
passion in life and my taglineand everything along those lines
.
And so today I am a CEO andfounder of E equals Y, which is
(08:37):
a leadership development programthat you mentioned and where
I'm going.
I was always number two in mostof my careers of helping other
people and this was the firsttime that I was willing to take
that risk, step out and build myown business and want to be
able to help others and leave itlegacy, so that our mission and
(09:00):
E equals Y is to eradicate badmanagement.
I truly believe there's a lotof poor management out there,
and I believe leadership canfundamentally change people's
lives and help make theworkplace where we spend so much
of our time better, and notjust the workplace, but our
(09:21):
personal relationships as well,accomplish and deliver results.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
So there's a lot that you sharing there that I want
to start back.
One of the quotes that I wantto make now is that I think the
biggest misappropriation of theorganization's assets is poor
leadership.
We think of waste in everywhich way, except when it comes
to human capital area.
So I'm resonating and workingback from the eradicating bad
(09:50):
management.
That seems to be a hugeundertaking.
We'll come back to that, butdriven overachiever.
What are the things, then, thatyou would say got you to that
path?
So, prior to 2017, when you hadthis epiphany, you had that
pivot, you got to that crossroute in life.
What are some of the formativethings that contributing to you
(10:14):
driving in that place,professionally, personally, what
are the things that are drivingyou to that point?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
It all started back in high school.
Quite honestly, I go back to myformidable years and I was
involved in every sport in theschool.
I was involved in the band, insome of the school politics, etc
.
So I had an opportunity todrive change back then.
(10:45):
So I was the captain of myteams and I was taught what
leadership was about at an earlyage I went to.
So one of my coaches is aninspiration for me, and she has.
She's still in my life to thisday and we talk often.
But she really asked me aquestion very early on in life.
(11:09):
You can either be a spectatoror you can be a player, and
which one do you want to be?
It's your choice, and I wantedto be a player.
I wanted to be in the game andI wanted to help the team win.
And she then went on and taughtme that, okay, well, your role
(11:29):
is going to be help inspire therest of the team, because I was
the setter on the team.
I played a lot of volleyball andyou're not going to be able to
see me on this podcast, but I'mnot very tall.
My role was the setter and myrole was to help make sure
everyone was set up for success.
I had to make sure I wassetting them up for the kill.
(11:50):
If anyone the shot or I didn'tget the ball in the right place,
it's okay, let's go, let's getback on the court, and it just
really played to where mystrengths were and that's how I
looked forward in everything Idid.
What are we trying toaccomplish?
We're trying to win the game.
How do we engage everyone?
(12:10):
Who needs to be lifted up, whoneeds a direct feedback, who
needs this?
And how are we going to know ifwe're winning?
So everything started at ayoung age around playing sports
and driving for success, focusedon great and doing well and
becoming a CPA.
(12:30):
It was always driven aboutresults.
What's the best that I can doand how am I going to do it?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
I think for you, being the CPA was the one thing
about you I like the most.
I think it's one of thoseinspiring things, as you're
sharing, right, that we allthere are some tenants or some
basic tenants that we all have,and I think in one of the prior
episodes, captain Deb, we'resharing that if we look back
(13:02):
through our lives, the samethemes are there for us, right,
when we need to find whether ornot we're aligned or are living
in the way that we would want tolive, those clues are always
there, right?
So once you actually justactually share the goals, how we
win and then how are we goingto know if we're winning?
That is the tenants of equallife.
(13:24):
But I've never heard you shareit in that way.
We'll go more into it.
But that's the early phase oflife, formative part.
You're CPA professionally.
How is that if you go throughthe arc of life?
So that's before you startedyour professional experience, so
you start it now.
What are those themes and whatare those things are coming up
(13:44):
for you, because in my head I'mgoing let's work to that
culmination of that inflectionpoint where you're like this
I've had enough.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
So for me, cpa was just the logical thing.
Something told me if you can dowell in accounting, you should
go after it, because that willset you up for success.
It's a good baseline foranything in business and I knew
that business was where I wantedto go, following my father's
footsteps.
But when I learned very quicklyin accounting, I don't like
(14:18):
routine, I don't like a lot ofdetails.
It's just not something thatreally excites me.
I like I have a lot of.
I'm an extrovert.
We're on the opposite right.
We talk about why we might nothave gotten along initially.
These are some of the reasons.
I like being out with people, Ilike to engage with customers
(14:38):
and things like that.
So as I was progressing in myaccounting career, what I was
enjoying was implementing asoftware package, because I got
to talk to a lot of differentpeople, I got to understand what
the problems were and I thoughtthis is interesting.
So I actually went to work forthe software company and that
(14:59):
was really a huge change for meto go from accounting over to
software, and at that point Iwas doing professional services.
From there.
They're like oh, you canimplement this, well, why don't
you go sell the product?
So I moved into the sales sideof doing technical sales, and my
progression in my career wasalways oh, we need to drive this
(15:22):
change.
Kathy would be great at that,and what I started to learn was
I had a reputation for gettingthings done.
So if there was a big project,big change initiative going on,
we should call Kathy, we shouldbring her in.
She's going to understandwhat's happening, she can figure
out what the nuances are, wherewe need to get to, and you'll
(15:47):
start to see the story again,nigel, right With the change,
where are we going, what are wetrying to accomplish and what's
it going to take to get there.
And so that's.
My career was really aboutmoving from one team to the next
, helping drive moretransformation, more change, and
I love doing it, and I was inthat 8% of getting things done.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Actually, you know what that 8%?
Let's go a little bit into that, because I just realized that,
so I flipped it around.
So, rather than the 8% success,I actually do the failure part
of it.
Do you mind just sharing alittle bit more about that
insight of 8%?
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, and I don't have the.
It's actually in, you can lookit up.
It's a number of places thatyou can prove that point.
It is that a lot of people puta lot of good ideas out there
but they don't have theinitiative to continue to see it
through.
They get bored, they don't knowhow to engage the people around
(16:55):
them, they don't want to do thehard work.
So they put this great visionout there.
I'm going to go accomplish this, whether it's personal fitness,
whether it's accomplishment ina career, whether it's starting
a new business.
So most people have great ideas.
They just don't know how to goand execute it.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Wow.
So I thought when I there was aresearch paper that came out on
it, right, and I think it wasit actually even went back to
say, of the people who set NewYear's resolutions, or I think
it, and then extrapolatedfurther into people who set
goals for themselves, only 8%actually follow it through to
(17:38):
the end.
And the way that I actually didit is that 98.
92% of us are failing at whatwe're trying to do by not
effectively managing us.
Right.
We can go a little bit moreinto that, because we'll talk
about managing you.
So it seems like careers goingwell, you have a brand, you're
driving change, you're gettingthings done.
(17:58):
The framework that you have forgetting things done is in place
, but what challenges are youhaving?
Right?
So, still working to thatinflection point of I'm going to
try to do this differently, I'mgoing to walk a different path.
So if you continue down thatpath, so you're doing well, what
else?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, and I think I want to share.
There's one other big thing inmy personal life that had a huge
impact on me to where I get totoday, and I thought about it
when you shared how I hadchallenged you in the beginning
on one of your meetings.
It was I got married at a youngage, so I was married at 20.
And I was getting divorced at28.
(18:38):
And most of my upbringing I haddone everything by the book.
I had followed the script.
I was now married with a white,with a house, with a white
picket fence, with a good career.
Everything was going completelyaccording to plan.
And then the rug was pulled outfrom under me.
(19:00):
I was absolutely gossed, matt,and suddenly I'm divorced and I
was not prepared for it becauseI thought I did everything by
the book.
And you want to talk about yourworst fears and uncertainty and
doubt and where you could end up.
And I ended up in when Ithought was rock bottom.
(19:22):
I was living back in myparents' house in the basement.
I had worked so hard to get thecareer, to get out, to get
married, to do everything theAmerican dream and despite doing
everything, what I thought wasright worst case scenario is I'm
back in my parents' house, so Ialways have that experience
(19:46):
with me throughout my career.
What's the worst case that canhappen?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Okay, so just in how our tangential minds work right
and how we operate.
So recently you took me through.
I was complaining to you abouta challenge that I was having
with something, right, and youthen started walking me through
an exercise.
So then what?
What's the worst that couldhappen in this space?
Right, and that was probably byfar one of the more challenging
(20:15):
things where, when I'mtriggered, I shut down.
Right, and with you I don't getthe opportunity to shut down, I
get to stand there and fully gothrough it.
Right, Because you're going tocall me out if I'm not living
the way that I put forward,right, that I'm coaching from an
(20:37):
EQI perspective, If I'm notaligned, you're going to give me
a hard time.
But that was the hardest thing,right, Because everywhere, every
place that I went, you reallythen held that mirror up to me
of, okay, well, that's how youfeel, but if you speak your
truth, what is the worst thatcan happen?
And then I would say whateverelse it was and you would be
(20:58):
like, okay, and then what?
And we kept going and going andI was infuriated, right, but at
the end of it I sat with it andI was like, holy shit, what is
the worst that can happen.
If you don't like me, you don'tlike me, but I'm still living
my truth right and I am stillliving in alignment with how I
(21:20):
see the world, what I want fromthe universe and what I've been
trying to give to the universe.
What drives that?
Because I'm just drawing off ofthe story of you at this point
and I've struggled with the samething.
I'm doing all the right things,but then I'm coming up or I'm
bumping up to results that I'mnot in line with what I had
(21:40):
planned.
Right, but that was one of thebigger things and we recently
did this.
Where did that come from?
And have you kept it from thisdivorce, this failure?
Help me just to understand thatright, Because I'm sure someone
will benefit from hearing whatis the worst that can happen.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah, it's, that was something that I look at.
And we have stories in our mindand that was what I was
starting to learn.
We tell ourselves a whole bunchof stories and those stories
come from a bunch of differentplaces.
They come from how we werebrought up, from our parents.
(22:19):
They're brought from society,from the books that we read a
whole bunch of places that webelieve what is, you know, the
right thing.
But at the end of the day, youknow, as long as we're able to
find joy, what does it reallymatter?
Right?
And that was the epiphany.
(22:39):
Oh, my gosh, I haven't talkedabout this in so long.
It was the thing that I got tochoose at that point was freedom
.
I had a choice when all of thiswas going down was I could
either live my life in sorrow,in, you know, frustration and
anger, and stay in that place ofI can't believe this happened
(23:01):
to me.
But I realized at that point Ihad a choice and I could choose
freedom.
I could choose what I wanted todo and I shouldn't really live
based on what other people weretelling me I should be doing.
I needed to look at what Iwanted to do and then I can go
from there.
(23:21):
And that actually ended upcoming to light for me was I had
an opportunity to go traveling.
So all of this, so what comesout of getting divorced I got to
move to England, right, I wouldnever have been able to move
anywhere else.
So I suddenly was moving toEngland to pursue some of my
(23:43):
role over there and I now got toexplore the world.
And while I was over there Istarted to learn a lot more
about wow, did you know you canbuy an around the world plane
ticket?
I didn't know that, living inAmerica, we didn't talk about
that very often.
You get a week or two weeksvacation Living in England.
They're suddenly telling me youcan travel around the world.
(24:05):
I'm like, oh, this soundslovely.
And so when someone asked me youknow what's your next job?
And I'm like I don't know, Ijust want to travel.
And they said, okay, well, dothat.
I'm like you can't do that.
You can't quit your job, youcan't travel, you can't write
all of these.
You can't write in.
These limitations are put on usby other people's fears and
(24:28):
certainties and doubt.
And I'm like, no, actually Ican do this.
And I remember having to flyhome to tell my parents hey, I'm
quitting my job and go travelaround the world and talk about
freedom at that point.
And then when someone said youcan't, I'm like why not tell me
why I can't?
(24:48):
Well, you may not get anotherjob when you get back.
Okay, what's the worst thingthat's going to happen?
Right, and you keep playingthose questions out over and
over again.
You realize that actually, ifyou go after what you would love
, what's the worst thing thatcan happen?
You get to do it.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Happiness, I think.
But that's you know I'm smilingagain because you know I'm.
This will be like a testimony,here and now, for the people who
know that I was raised inchurch and that I do have tapes
that will play and it's one ofthe things that I actively try
to manage.
(25:29):
Right, that is not thatwhatever I'm thinking is not the
current situation, it'sprobably something from the past
.
You don't know that.
This is true, but that space offear, uncertainty and doubt
that's passed down from othersaround us and our parents, it is
(25:50):
the last frontier, I think,from my perspective.
Right, because I've alwaysheard you can't, and I was like,
well, I can prove you wrong,but that was an internal
conversation, it wasn't standingfirm in it and saying, well,
why not?
And what's the worst that canhappen?
And going through thatexploration process and finding
(26:10):
that if you're truly doing thethings that you love, as you
said, and that's what's makingyou happy, you only have the
current moment, right, so that'swhere, that's where we should
be oriented, right, okay, sostill going on.
So we have that inflectionpoint and we're still this is
one inflection point leading usto the other one where you're
(26:34):
going to create this radicallydifferent view of leadership.
So keep bringing us along withyou on this story, this journey.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
So I did come back from my travels and I got back
into corporate world again andstarted driving change and I was
loving it.
I was working for largecorporation, getting experience
in a lot of different groups,working with different people,
and some of it was good, some ofit was bad.
It was a challenge.
I always say working in a largecorporation really helps teach
(27:08):
you a lot of resilience.
It teaches you where failureshappen and how to do things
differently, but it also showsyou how to do things in
different ways and in a lot ofways, better ways, right, how it
can work if there's money andprocess and things like that.
So again, I was driving a lotof change initiatives and
(27:30):
unfortunately I hit the glassceiling A number of positions.
I was named as the successorfor my leaders and when they
left I wasn't even offered theinterview.
So it was an interestingchallenge at the time and very
forced me to do a lot ofintrospection.
And why is that?
(27:51):
Is this me?
Is it helped pile on to theself doubt, I think, but we can
talk about that in a little bit.
I eventually ended up workingfor a leader who I didn't feel
should be the leader and Ishouldn't even say he was leader
.
He was the manager of the teamand I really had a number of
(28:13):
months sitting there andrecognizing that I was being
asked to do things differentlythan were true to me and my
values.
I'm someone that cares aboutpeople.
I truly believe if you want todrive change, you need to help
them understand why we need todo things, how we're going to do
it, how it's going to bedifferent, so people can get on
(28:36):
board and be inspired.
And suddenly I was being toldwho cares why?
Just do it.
And it went against everythingin my nature and my values of
who I was and what I wanted todo.
And I thought long and hardabout it and I was working tons
of hours.
(28:56):
I had no balance between workand life.
I came home miserable on adaily basis and I thought this
is ridiculous, this isn't worthmy health anymore, and had long
conversations with my husbandabout it, because when you're
working for a large corporation,there's a lot of financial
(29:19):
stability, right, and it's veryeasy to be comfortable and stay.
And finally I said I can't dothis anymore.
This is not who I am, what Iwant to be, and I need to walk
away.
And so I resigned after beingat the company for over 13 years
and decided that I was going totake a break and figure out who
(29:42):
I was and what I needed to do.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Where is that manager now?
I'm always curious, right,because, to be quite candid and
frank, very transparent, I'vehad some really bad managers
along the way and they all seemto continue to do well.
And to me it's almost thatthing where individuals the
(30:10):
organization knows that theseindividuals are not the right
people for those roles, but theywill keep being put forward.
And for a lot of my career andI don't think I've ever shared
this before, I think, as a blackmale my opportunities as far as
I went in my career.
I never expected to go as far.
(30:32):
So there was a lot of thingsthat I kept quiet about where I
knew it wasn't right, and Ithink we had this conversation
before in the pandemic where,like with the George Floyd
incident, for instance, itwasn't the George Floyd incident
that really was to shift.
For me, it was how my silenceit was seismic for the country
(30:57):
and everything else, but for meit was sitting with that and
then realizing that all theyears that I was quiet, all the
years that I didn't speak up,all the years that I accepted
less than from managers, all theyears that people did things
that were wrong from a raceperspective, from whatever
perspective, and I didn't speakup, I enabled them to treat the
(31:21):
next generations of individualspoorly, and that was so hard and
so heavy for me and I thinksince then I've actually started
speaking up in a different wayor finding my voice.
But it is something that I'malways curious, because only
until recently did I startrealizing that at some point
that clock probably runs out,but I'm always curious where do
(31:43):
those people end up?
What is their end game?
What is the goal?
Because leadership and peopleleadership is something that is.
It's such an honor, it's suchsomething that you're getting to
create something, you'regetting to invest in people,
you're getting to help them seeand believe in things, be
inspired.
But I don't think many peopleactually would take it in that
(32:06):
way.
But I think maybe that's a gooddovetail into so you're done
with this.
Now You've backed from your timeoff and what is coming up for
you?
What are you saying?
I am going to create this andmaybe that takes us into what is
the framework of E equals Y.
(32:28):
And, by the way, just a plugagain here for you, you
volunteered to take my team, mynew team, through this process,
or many of the teams, the newteams that I've had since then.
You take us through the process.
You've donated that time andI'm so grateful for it.
I don't know sometimes if theteams fully appreciated what we
(32:48):
were doing, but your the E3leadership framework is
something that I use as a tablestay.
If I'm preparing for aconversation or an interview, I
get to go back through it and Iget to kind of see okay, this is
what matters to me.
And what was actually prettycool was you also helped me in
(33:09):
that framework to prioritizewhat was important to me, and it
was actually I think I was whenI was interviewing for that job
in Maine.
You actually took me throughthat process of what was
important.
And what was interesting wasthat the money and the location
fell so far below the thingsthat I thought it would be in
(33:33):
money.
I thought it would be where Iwas staying, but after going
through that process with you, Iwas willing to move to Prescott
, maine, for an opportunity, andno one believes that that's six
miles away from the Canadianborder, right.
So I always moved to Canada.
I'm not going to get thinkingabout it, kathy.
I'm not sure if I should bethankful or if I should be upset
that you almost convinced me todo that, but I believe in the
(33:56):
E3 framework, I believe in whatyou're doing and I'm happy like
I'm excited for you to sharesome more of that with the
audience.
So go for it.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Great Thanks.
So the E3 framework reallystarted during that time off
when I stopped to think aboutokay, what is it that I might be
doing different to helpaccomplish things?
Right?
How did I get into that 8%?
And there's a number ofdifferent elements that are
needed to all happen at the sametime, and I like to use the
(34:28):
image of a three-legged stoolright, you need to have all the
legs solid and then you need tohave the seat, so the three legs
are, first and foremost.
You need to be able to expressyour ambition, and expressing
that is what is it that youwould love?
Where do you want to get to?
(34:48):
What does that look like?
What does the goal look like?
And really expressing it in alot of detail.
There is a mantra that I usethink idealistically, not
realistically, because too oftenwe think about oh, I would love
to take a step forward.
Well, actually, before youworry about the steps forward,
(35:10):
where is it that you want to endup?
Where do you love?
Where's that end goal?
And so being able to expressthat end vision helps you make
sure you're not missing andgetting caught up in all of the
little details in between, right, so it starts with expression,
the end vision.
Now you know where you want toget to.
You know what it's going tofeel like when you have the
(35:31):
inspiration for that.
Now you have to think aboutshall I go into engage all of
the people I need to get there?
And so now this gets intoawareness of yourself who are
you, what do you care about,what do you need?
And also understanding otherpeople.
So I might be an extrovert.
I learned very quickly.
You were Nigel right, and sonow to interact and work better
(35:55):
together, I needed to change howI might approach different
things.
I needed to be respectful ofhow you're thinking, how you're
feeling, and there's a lot ofempathy there, of understanding
other people, so that you canengage and work better with them
.
And the more people that knowwhere you want to get to, they
can help you get there.
(36:17):
So that's why the second leg isso important engaging people
around you to help you get tothe end result.
The third leg is aroundexecution, and I've met a lot of
people that are visionaries.
They're fantastic at paintingthat end vision.
They rally the troops andeveryone gets involved and then
(36:37):
they don't accomplish anythingBecause they forget that this is
going to take hard work.
This takes tell plans, it takesoperations, it takes repetition
, and it's all of that toactually execute and make sure
you get to the end goal.
And that's about measuringthings, having milestones, et
cetera.
So those are the three legs tothe stool to really be able to
(37:01):
get to your end result Express,engage, execute.
And then the C is what I callthe emotional qualities that
every leader should have inevery individual, and this gets
into the things around empathy,enablement, empowering others,
being gracious and havinggratitude, and so those
(37:22):
emotional elements are what arethe glue for that.
And you need to connect to thehearts of others, and so when
you look at this framework, itcan be applied in so many
different cases.
So, nigel, as you're saying,first and foremost it's about
ourselves right, being able toexpress who we are and how we
(37:44):
engage with others and how wewant to execute.
And that's the exercise we didwith your teams of creating your
E3 leadership profile, right Ofwho are you, what do you care
about, and really beingvulnerable.
And I know that's hard for a lotof people, but it is powerful
when I watch people really sitdown and do the work, because a
(38:06):
lot of it is what are my values,what do I care about and why?
What am I?
Non-negotiable, what am I goingto walk into and not and be
willing to walk away from anopportunity Because it is
contradicting?
It contradicts what we reallywant?
(38:27):
And so this E3 leadershipprofile is really focused on
defining all that and so that wecan share it with others.
And when you can share it withothers, then you can start to
work better with each other.
And that's the power of beingable to use this framework
(38:47):
personally.
And then imagine doing this asa team and sharing those with
the team and creating your team,and so it kind of goes out like
a concentric circle or when youdrop a pebble in and it just
keeps building those ripples,that when you do it individually
, you do it for your team, youdo it for your function, and
when you get the organizationsdoing it, there is so much
(39:10):
goodness that comes out and avirtuous cycle that's created as
a result.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
I like that.
What's interesting, though,where my mind is going right,
because recently I've had somechallenges where I thought I
enjoyed managing people andleadership, and I've been trying
to figure out the why behind it.
Right, what makes me gravitatetowards that aspect of getting
things done and I think for along time it was that my
(39:40):
leadership philosophy base isgrounded in the fact that I will
not do things that individualsdid to me that I didn't
appreciate, but I didn't have aguidebook, or hey, this is what
you should be doing, boy.
These are the things you shouldconsider.
These are the questions thatyou ask yourself, and I find it
(40:01):
was so enlightening goingthrough that process, right,
because some of it was verysimple, but then it was also not
simplistic, if you will.
What is the challenge, as you,and before we go back a little
bit into you, what is thechallenge that you find?
Right, because this makes senseto me.
So what is the biggest obstaclethat you come up in trying to
(40:24):
implement the framework in, orget leaders to adapt or adopt it
?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
I think it's the EQI side of it, it's the emotional.
A lot of people think businessis business and I don't need to
bring the woo-woo into it right.
You often hear, oh, you can'tput a big heart up on your slide
and I think people are nervousabout being vulnerable and
that's scary for a lot of people.
(40:54):
And I think the other part ofit also the realistic side of it
is I've got tasks to get doneright, so they get really caught
up in the execution side ofthings of I just I have a
deadline, I don't have time forthat and in reality you'll get a
lot more done if you juststepped back and you looked at
(41:14):
the bigger picture and you'reworried about bringing your
whole team along.
But people just get caught up,and we all do.
I get caught up as well.
You get caught up in thewhirlwind of the day-to-day
activities and you needreminders of wait a minute.
I need to pull back here andask myself what are we trying to
accomplish?
What do we need?
How are we gonna be successful?
(41:35):
How do I inspire and enableothers?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Oh, wow, okay, I like that and I'll leave it there.
But I wanna go back to you,cathy, right, so that's a big
shift.
That's, if you're thinkingabout that goal of eradicating
poor leadership, right, how areyou?
What was that?
Flipping that switch or moving,like, what were the challenges
(41:58):
of to move in that direction?
Because sometimes it's easy toenvision it, but then how do you
make it happen?
How are you managing you tomake it happen right At that
point in time, like, what arethose conversations you're
having with yourself at thattime?
Speaker 2 (42:19):
It was.
One of the reflections was whatwould I do if I wasn't getting
paid?
And that for me was really hard, because I'm not a creative
person, I'm not someone that canpaint, I can't play music.
I can technically play music,but I don't.
(42:39):
I can't listen and get the beat, and things like that.
So a lot of things where wethink, oh, what's your passion
in life?
Just didn't seem tangible forme.
Like it just I'm like nope, I'man operational person.
This isn't.
I got nothing.
I got no passion in life.
And when I started to sit downand think about it, I recognized
(43:01):
what I loved doing was talkingto other people and finding out
what they wanted to do and whatthey love to do.
And I realized that, whether Iget paid or not, I love
inspiring and enabling people.
I truly believe we have theanswers within ourselves and we
just need a muse almost to pullit out of us and help us bring
(43:24):
it to fruition.
And I'll tell you a story.
It's a little bit of a tangent,but I'll never forget.
I was in England, I was workingand I was sharing an apartment
over there.
So I went out to dinner with myhousemate and he was like oh,
kat, can you get me a job atVodafone?
This would be fantastic.
You're working there.
You can take my resume.
(43:44):
I'm in marketing.
Can you get me a job?
I really wanna work forVodafone.
And I'm like do you really?
I'm like why do you?
He said well, I don't know, Ineed a job, I just need a job
and please.
I said, all right, well, let'sget a minute.
If you could do anything in theworld, what would it be?
And he's like well, I have amarketing degree.
So I said take a step back and,honestly, if you could do
(44:06):
anything in the world, and he'slike oh, I'd be a race car
driver.
And I'm like ooh, all right.
Well, that might be a littletough now at this point.
But we started talking about ita little more and I said well,
wait a minute.
You're living in England.
There's a number of Formula Onecompanies and car manufacturers
in England.
You have a marketing degree.
(44:28):
Why aren't you going afterthose companies to bring your
experience to them so that youcan really live your dream?
He's like all right, so thiswas right.
Before I left to go traveling,what an amazing email I got.
Six months later, he emails me.
He's like chef.
You'll never guess where I am.
(44:50):
He's on the pit of a FormulaOne race.
I am working for the marketingteam and I am living my dream.
And I was like, oh my God, andthat was just like from a simple
conversation, right.
I was just asking him whatwould he love?
I didn't do anything exceptpull that conversation out.
(45:11):
And I had a lot of thoseconversations over my life and
I'm like, wow, this is, thismight be my superpower, this is
fun and understanding where mypassion was and what I love.
I'm like, okay, that's asuperpower.
There's a real problem in thisworld where I think there's
crappy managers across the board.
(45:31):
Only 33% of people are actuallyengaged and enjoy their job.
We know that 92% aren'taccomplishing the goals.
Right Now, I'm taking all thistogether and going what can I do
?
What should I?
How do I leverage all this?
And that's when I said I needto create a business.
(45:52):
And I started to build thisframework and I said I wanna
bring this to other people andfigure out how I can help
businesses, you know, reallyimprove leadership development.
And that's.
I have this vision.
Imagine when you're gonnainterview for a position.
Someone had the certificate ontheir wall and they're an E3
(46:12):
leader and you knew that theyused this framework and you knew
that they cared about peopleand they had the emotional
qualities.
You'd be like, oh, I wanna gowork for that person, right?
Or imagine you're going to hiresomeone and you could see that,
and then suddenly you're like,okay, maybe I can walk into a
place and I'm gonna be in abetter place, other than you're
(46:33):
going in with a hope and aprayer, right, that you're gonna
get a good leader and you'regonna have a good experience.
So that's my vision and that'swhy I started this company and
that's what motivates me on adaily basis.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
I'm smiling and that's awesome.
I and, as you're transitioning,you found your super flower.
What was your kryptonite?
Right?
Speaker 2 (47:03):
My lack of confidence .
It comes back to what westarted this conversation.
I have a lot of self-doubt.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, but the self-doubt portion of it is
what's interesting and I thinkit's really cool for the
audience to hear.
The self-doubt is back to thesame thing that the tape that
you have right, and sometimesthat's not true, and these are
some of the conversations thatwe've had, but I think in our
context and in our interactions,it's just a delay in getting
(47:33):
moving or getting the actionattached to the ideas right.
One of the things that was coolis that once you got moving,
then you really got moving.
It's like a glitch or theawareness that you had it.
It was a glitch, so it was likeI have this and this is what I
know, this is what I'm aware of,so this is what I need to do.
But running your own business isvery different than a corporate
(47:55):
setting right, and I think someof the things that we talked
about was the same self-beliefand the ability just to sell
yourself.
I think one of the challengesand I don't know if you've seen
it is that I realized the stuffthat I was doing the EQI stuff.
It was that it was my balance,so I could have the worst day at
work, but if I'm able to helpsomeone right, I was good.
(48:19):
So I would do the EQI work forfree right.
I would give it to anyone whowould actually benefit from it,
provided that I was making the.
You know what I mean making asignificant salary right that I
could afford it.
That's my way of giving back.
But what you're passionate aboutdoesn't necessarily equate into
(48:40):
being able to do it well as abusiness right and I think
sometimes we have we'repassionate about the ideas but
don't necessarily always facethe reality of then what we're
passionate about making it intoa business.
That's a huge leap and I thinkthat's some of the conversations
that we've had.
So is there any insights thatyou can share with someone who's
listening about what thattransition is like, what that
(49:04):
the mindset, how you manageyourself, because there's a lot
more going into it than just youknow.
I have these thoughts or theseepiphanies right.
So I don't know.
I don't know that's too much toask, but maybe you can just
share a little bit about again,the managing you through the
transition and the growth thatyou're seeking in the challenges
that you're working past.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Yeah, that is a lot.
I rely on my framework a lot,I'll be honest, right.
So I apply it for myself and Ihave the envision.
So really understanding, andyou really have to have the
passion, because if you don'thave the passion and you're
really doing it to just make apaycheck, it's going to be hard,
(49:49):
right.
So I think when you can startwith the passion, that gets you
through some of the toughestdays, because what this?
Starting a business requires alot of grit, consistency and
hard work.
Right, it's not easy and yourego is involved on a lot of days
(50:11):
.
Because when you're startingthe business, it's one thing.
When you're selling someoneelse's products and they don't
like it you know, you didn'tdefine it well, we haven't
figured out the customer problemyou can put it on someone else.
When you're starting your ownbusiness and you don't get it
right, you're like, oh, that'sall I'm made, right.
So you really have to have a lotof commitment and belief that
(50:34):
you can do it, because it's hard.
And then you have to be able toreally just say is there a
problem?
And validate that other peoplehaving a challenge that you can
help with and if you cancontinue to validate that
there's others out there thatneed that support, then that's
you know, there's going to begood days that help propel you
(50:54):
forward, and you're like, yep,okay, this is why I'm doing this
.
And when you get that reviewfrom someone, they're like, oh,
my gosh, this made a hugedifference.
You're like, yep, I'm on theright path.
All right, I'm going to putthat in a jar and I'm going to
hold it up, and you always wantto open it up on the bad day.
Keep going.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
But the crazy thing is that you know how the mind
works is that the positivethings are not as amplified as
the negative things orexperiences.
Right and those are some of thethings that we've talked about
as we've gone through similarjourney is the idea of how do
you manage, you know, while I'mtrying this new thing and I'm
(51:34):
making these five steps forward,I believe, but it's not getting
the same traction as I wouldlike, right?
And how do you so?
If you know that self doubt isyour thing, right?
How do you then still manageyou through those situations?
So, yeah, you have theframework that you follow, but
(51:54):
that's the same.
You know the headline, right?
What does that look like?
How do you manage you?
So, to have your best day, whatdoes that look like?
And don't talk about justknowing that we will speak at
once a week and that's alwaysyour best day, but you know how
do you?
It's always it, oh, thanks.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
Just looking at what are the big rocks.
You know what do I want to getdone?
And recognizing, I call it theblack box, right?
So that self doubt is a blackbox that I know sits inside of
me and I have conversations withit, so don't tell we've just
told a whole bunch of peopleit's nice.
(52:36):
I start my morning, mostmornings, with a miracle morning
and I go through a structurewhere I talk about my
affirmations and what I'mgrateful for and visualizing
what it is that I want toaccomplish.
And it really the days I don'tdo it and you and I have talked
(52:57):
about it.
I've gone, I've ebbed andflowed the days I don't do it or
I go for long periods of timewhere I haven't done it.
I know I'm at a wap because theself doubt talk track or that
black box gets louder and louderand so I haven't tamed it.
So you got to name it, to tameit, and then you got to work on
(53:18):
making sure.
Hey, I know you're there butyou're just trying to knock me
off because you're fearful ofsomething else.
Right, it's having that quiettime in the morning to reflect
and respect what might be goingon and choose the freedom to go
for and know that the passionand the belief are what you want
(53:38):
to go for.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
I'm smiling because one of the cool things I admired
was that you and Ralph do thistogether, ralph's Kathy's better
half husband, my favoriteperson in the family, which I
often let her know.
But one of the coolest thingswas to know that you guys would
go through that miracle morningtogether and the tenets of it.
(54:02):
I think there was one timewhere you shared with me the put
your mask on first right, thatidea of you know if you're the
oxygen mask yeah.
Right on the plate.
So it's like I try to talk alot about the self-care portion
of it.
This just highlights theimportance of self-care, right?
You're not going to be yourbest self if you're not
activating practices, thingsthat would help you to be your
(54:26):
best self to show up in thatsame consistent manner.
But now, kathy, how we end mostof it because you were one of
the first people who wentthrough the EQI assessment with
me, right, like, I think, once Iwas certified to do it, we then
traded.
So I did your clarity full of D.
You did the EQI assessment.
(54:47):
You thought that it was way toomuch information.
You thought that it was 20pages and it was way too much
information.
But we found a way for you toget through it, and I think
kudos to John Hughes, right, whoworks on a method of debriefing
(55:08):
that you can then followthrough on.
But we did a really cool thingin that you did it the first
year and then we worked onthings individually, back and
forth, right, coaching eachother in different ways, and
then you did it a second year,right.
So we did an evaluation a yeardown the road.
So do you mind just takingthrough the audience and what
(55:28):
you learned in that firstassessment and then what came
out of the second assessment.
Speaker 2 (55:37):
Yeah, so there were three main things where there
was a big difference, and one ofthem was self-regard.
That was my number one.
Hey, I have an opportunity here, and you and I are always on
that personal journey of how toimprove and taking care of
ourselves.
I wasn't necessarily surprised,but to see it with the data
(56:00):
helps.
You sometimes think, oh yeah,maybe not, but this comes out
with the data and you go, ohyeah, no, this is my lowest
score and you helped me take itbeyond just a score and saying,
well, what does that mean?
So how do I adjust that?
So if my self-regard is notgreat, then what's that outcome
(56:23):
look like?
On a positive side, and it wasto help others, to help see
myself as others see me, and weset that as a goal right and we
started working towards it.
We also learned from it and Isay we because, as you learned,
you helped coach me right andyou got a great done that with
problem solving and makingdecisions is something that can
(56:46):
really cause challenges for me,right, because I want to, I
don't want to miss out onanything, I want to make sure I
can do everything, and so it washamstringing me sometimes of I
wouldn't make a decision becauseI didn't want to get it wrong,
and so I realized that I justhave to make a decision.
When I don't make a decision,that's when the problems show up
(57:08):
, that's when I probably havemore failures.
I just need to make thedecision and have that
confidence.
And it was great, right, whenwe looked at the report the next
year, we deliberately wentafter fixing well, fixing, you
know, focusing on these itemsand the numbers went up.
And I mean the numbers went upacross the board, right, and I
(57:31):
truly believe by havingawareness of what they were and
where you are allows you thenput that plan in place on how
you're going to go improve them.
Speaker 1 (57:41):
Yeah, you know, as you're saying, that, it's just
really interesting how theself-regard and the idea on
self-regard again just torefresh your audience is like
it's.
You would not necessarily youwould beat yourself up about
mistakes, so you'll probablylike me, I measure five times to
cut once.
But that can be a lot ofemotional waste and certain
(58:03):
instances, right, if we go tothat concept and then the idea
of so, when you get into problemsolving and you're afraid to
make a mistake, what individualother individual would then
experience is that you want tobe right.
And recently in my head I kindof flipped the switch, flipped
from, you know, seeing someoneas wanting to be right, as
(58:24):
opposed, instead of saying, well, this person's afraid of making
this mistake, which is a verydifferent dynamic in itself.
Right, so that is actually cool.
But I like where you landed inthat we can practice what we
want to be, and this was kind ofwe were like the test group, if
you will, right on seeing howwe can tie action into the
(58:47):
awareness that we were getting.
One of the things I'm alwaysfascinated about.
What are you learning now aboutthis If we just go back to
leadership throughself-leadership, through how you
want to help people, and I knowwe had that conversation about
the radical candor part of it orthe second part of it, but can
you share with the audience whatare you learning now about that
(59:10):
self-leadership, leading others?
What's that green growing edge,if you will, of the work and
the things that you'repassionate about?
Speaker 2 (59:23):
Leadership.
Leadership development is ajourney and I think so often we
think about it as a class or aone-off.
I'm going to read a book orI'll get my whole team together
and we'll do a one-day of thekumbaya and everyone feels great
, but in reality, we all go backto our day jobs and we all get
busy.
So when I'm really learning andI had applied this and a number
(59:48):
of the companies I was at aswell, and that's what I'm
bringing to market here is itneeds to be continuous and you
need to practice.
When you look at the EQI andthe improvements that were made
throughout the year, that wasn'ta one-time report and we came
back a year later and hoped thatit was going to be better.
It was practice and it was youand I meeting every week to
(01:00:13):
bring it back to fruition.
That's what leadershipdevelopment is.
And it's an individual journeyto know yourself, no others.
But it's a team journey andit's about putting a lot of
these practices together as ateam and getting comfortable
with having difficultconversations, giving feedback,
(01:00:36):
being aware and calling you out.
I called you an a-hole thefirst day I met you, but that
broke a barrier pretty quicklybecause if we didn't go there,
we would have stayed on thesurface level and we wouldn't be
talking today right.
Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
You know it's funny.
You call me that.
It was the first time someoneever said it in that way or
cared enough to say it, becausein my head I would shut down
right Whenever I'm like okay,you don't want to do this, I go
the other way.
But you leaned it and Iappreciate you so much for who
you are and how you showed up,how you supported me, how you've
(01:01:17):
believed in me and the thingsthat I'm doing and how you've
encouraged me, even on the dayswhen I would not like you for
giving me the feedback that youwere giving me, and those were
some good days.
But I do believe that and one ofthe things that you shared is
that and you've helped me toappreciate is that there is joy
(01:01:39):
and bravery and also, once youfind the thing that you love and
you're doing it, there's somuch things that are possible in
life right, and you show up ina very different way.
Things are lighter in so manyways.
So I appreciate you, kathy.
Thank you for taking the timeto chat with us today, and if
(01:02:00):
someone wanted to reach andconnect with you, where would
they find you?
Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
They can reach e-equals-y at wwwe-equals-ycom.
We don't always get thespelling correct, and you can
find me on LinkedIn as well.
You're Kathy Eastwood.
I have a number of videos onYouTube.
We have a lot of leadershipnuggets that are out there.
People want some practicaladvice on how to improve their
(01:02:26):
leadership on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
So I would say thank you, mrs Eastwood, and thank you
Ralph, just because.
Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
That's why you like him better because he's doing it
.
Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Talk to you soon.
Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
Thanks so much, appreciate it.
Bye.
Okay, so super excited for today's episode long
awaited.
Today with me is my very, verydear friend, kathy Eastwood.
Kathy is the CEO and founder ofE-EqualsY.
E-equalsy is a leadershipdevelopment company focused on
how leadership is viewed,delivered and measured.
(00:27):
Kathy, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Thanks for having me, Nigel.
I'm excited to be here.
It has been a long journey forus to finally get here.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
It has been a long journey for us to get to this
point.
I always like to start, beforewe jump in, with the backstory
of what makes the guest on thepodcast so special and so
genuine, at least why I'mputting forward these
conversations.
So Kathy and I met in 2019.
We met again.
(00:59):
It seems like I'm always inGrenada for a funeral, but I was
there for my granddad's funeral.
I just wanted to take a break.
I think I was preparing theeulogy that day.
I wanted just to take a break,get some fresh air.
I walked out and then Kathy andour friend Natalie.
They were at the same hotel, soI passed by.
(01:19):
I followed the first time and Ihad a superficial conversation,
but I was just keeping moving inmy head.
If you've listened to much ofthe podcast, you'd hear me note
that I'm an introvert in manyways, so I have to be mindful to
get out of my head when I'm inthe world right.
So that was the first time andthen throughout that day, we
(01:40):
kept bumping into each other.
I think we were on one end ofthe beach, moved to the next end
of the beach.
I was having lunch with myuncle and there was Nat and
Kathy again.
That evening we ended up in thereception Was it the guest
reception?
The cocktail, yeah right, yeah.
By the pool, yeah right.
(02:01):
And we started the conversationand we went a little bit deeper
and I think that's when Kathyfirst expressed her distress
about me living in New Jersey,right.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Yeah, I think I apologized.
Yeah, you apologized.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
But then, as we talked a little bit, her first
comment to act to me is you'rean a-hole.
And I was like why am I ana-hole?
She's like why would you chooseto show people one side of
yourself when you're thistotally different person?
And, kathy, what was thatexperience?
Because that's where we'llstart, because every time I
(02:38):
think about that, I think thatis, by my standards, how any
good relationship should start.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Being completely honest, you're an a-hole.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah, right, but what was that experience?
What did you start with BeforeI tell everyone, or share with
everyone, what it's blossomedinto?
Right, so go ahead.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Well, I just really get upset when someone can't
live their genuine self andthey're putting on an air to be
someone else.
And I was like you're wastingyour life and why would you do
that?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Well, what did you think?
What air do you think I wasputting on?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, You're just trying.
I felt you're just trying towell, for a lot of people it
would come across as you'retrying to prove yourself being
better than you are.
For me, I thought there wassomething more there, and that's
what upset me, because therewas just being able to have the
conversation with you.
I'm like there's more there andyou're not letting me see it
(03:40):
and I want to know more.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
And that's why I called you on it, but I do
believe that and maybe it issomething that goes like I don't
believe that everyone genuinelycares, so therefore, you
shouldn't genuinely let everyonein, right?
If it's something as simple ashow many people how often do you
hear someone genuinely say howwas your day or how are you?
And, as we get older, the waythat friendships occur and a lot
(04:05):
of those things, it is in a waywhere people don't necessarily
always want to see us, right,we're all caught up in what
we're doing.
So it's usually I think I wascoming in my lived experiences
that people generally don't care.
They just care of being someonebeing polite.
Hey, you're at my country oryou're in my country, Check this
(04:25):
out.
This is pretty cool.
Have you seen this, right?
The very, very surfaceconversation?
But, needless to say, sincethat day, we've actually we've
met once a week, every week,since October 28 of 2019, right,
(04:47):
I'm actually getting goosebumpsbecause I'm thinking about it
and really, do you have thatconsistency?
And I think in the group or thementoring group that we started
in 2020 or so, like, we meetoften, but you're probably one
of the few people who we've hadthese conversations, you know
consistently right, and you'veactually had some really mind
shifting and life altering atleast from my perspective
(05:11):
conversations with me.
I remember I was going into adifficult conversation at my
employer at that time and hesaid to me what is your
objective for this meeting?
And then you're like, okay,remember that you were like
everyone else will want to talkabout how they feel.
And feelings are just anemotional response and it feels
(05:34):
good in the moment, but it's notgoing to get you any closer to
the objectives and the outcomesthat you're seeking.
And that was the first timethat someone had said it to me
in that way that I was like,okay, wow, I get it and I was
able to get everything I neededfrom that conversation, but I
didn't get the release, theemotional release of I just
(05:56):
dumped all my problems ontosomeone and now I feel better
and we don't have any directionto go in.
But so, Kathy, I appreciate youin so many way.
My dearest friends now, and Iam so excited for the audience
to hear of some of the insightsand how you found your way to
this place and what you'repassionate about.
So where we start with everyone, if you don't mind, who is
(06:20):
Kathy Eastwood?
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Well, you've done my.
You've worked with me on my EQI.
You know this is the hardestquestion that you're asking me,
and starting with because myself-regard is probably one of
my lowest EQI elements oftalking about myself.
I have a lot of self-doubt, butwith that I'm going to power
through and tell you a littlebit more about me.
(06:44):
I am a nurturing driver is mytagline and something I start
with when I introduce myself toa lot of people.
It's taken me a long time tofigure out who I am, what I
stand for, what I'm passionateabout, and when I look at that
tagline and being a nurturingdriver, it sums up a lot of who
(07:05):
I am.
I'm someone that loves to getthings done.
I like to be in the 8% thataccomplish things, but the way I
do it is caring about people.
So I am an Ares, like someothers that are on this call
with me, and I am driven.
You know I'm a bit of anoverachiever and I love to work
(07:29):
with other people and help themget to where they want to be as
well, and so I love to connectto people and help work together
to get to where I'm goals.
So that's kind of who I am atthe core and it's really been a
journey for me and how I got tostarting my business, e equals Y
(07:50):
, because it all started in 17.
So a couple of years before wemet Nigel, I took some time off
and hopefully we'll get a chanceto talk about Stupid Poopyhead
a little bit because he was acatalyst in my life but I left
corporate America and took ayear off to figure out who I am,
(08:11):
what I want, what I need, wheream I going to get to, and that
really helped put everything inperspective for me.
It forced me to go back and lookat my life and define my
passion in life and my taglineand everything along those lines
.
And so today I am a CEO andfounder of E equals Y, which is
(08:37):
a leadership development programthat you mentioned and where
I'm going.
I was always number two in mostof my careers of helping other
people and this was the firsttime that I was willing to take
that risk, step out and build myown business and want to be
able to help others and leave itlegacy, so that our mission and
(09:00):
E equals Y is to eradicate badmanagement.
I truly believe there's a lotof poor management out there,
and I believe leadership canfundamentally change people's
lives and help make theworkplace where we spend so much
of our time better, and notjust the workplace, but our
(09:21):
personal relationships as well,accomplish and deliver results.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
So there's a lot that you sharing there that I want
to start back.
One of the quotes that I wantto make now is that I think the
biggest misappropriation of theorganization's assets is poor
leadership.
We think of waste in everywhich way, except when it comes
to human capital area.
So I'm resonating and workingback from the eradicating bad
(09:50):
management.
That seems to be a hugeundertaking.
We'll come back to that, butdriven overachiever.
What are the things, then, thatyou would say got you to that
path?
So, prior to 2017, when you hadthis epiphany, you had that
pivot, you got to that crossroute in life.
What are some of the formativethings that contributing to you
(10:14):
driving in that place,professionally, personally, what
are the things that are drivingyou to that point?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
It all started back in high school.
Quite honestly, I go back to myformidable years and I was
involved in every sport in theschool.
I was involved in the band, insome of the school politics, etc
.
So I had an opportunity todrive change back then.
(10:45):
So I was the captain of myteams and I was taught what
leadership was about at an earlyage I went to.
So one of my coaches is aninspiration for me, and she has.
She's still in my life to thisday and we talk often.
But she really asked me aquestion very early on in life.
(11:09):
You can either be a spectatoror you can be a player, and
which one do you want to be?
It's your choice, and I wantedto be a player.
I wanted to be in the game andI wanted to help the team win.
And she then went on and taughtme that, okay, well, your role
(11:29):
is going to be help inspire therest of the team, because I was
the setter on the team.
I played a lot of volleyball andyou're not going to be able to
see me on this podcast, but I'mnot very tall.
My role was the setter and myrole was to help make sure
everyone was set up for success.
I had to make sure I wassetting them up for the kill.
(11:50):
If anyone the shot or I didn'tget the ball in the right place,
it's okay, let's go, let's getback on the court, and it just
really played to where mystrengths were and that's how I
looked forward in everything Idid.
What are we trying toaccomplish?
We're trying to win the game.
How do we engage everyone?
(12:10):
Who needs to be lifted up, whoneeds a direct feedback, who
needs this?
And how are we going to know ifwe're winning?
So everything started at ayoung age around playing sports
and driving for success, focusedon great and doing well and
becoming a CPA.
(12:30):
It was always driven aboutresults.
What's the best that I can doand how am I going to do it?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
I think for you, being the CPA was the one thing
about you I like the most.
I think it's one of thoseinspiring things, as you're
sharing, right, that we allthere are some tenants or some
basic tenants that we all have,and I think in one of the prior
episodes, captain Deb, we'resharing that if we look back
(13:02):
through our lives, the samethemes are there for us, right,
when we need to find whether ornot we're aligned or are living
in the way that we would want tolive, those clues are always
there, right?
So once you actually justactually share the goals, how we
win and then how are we goingto know if we're winning?
That is the tenants of equallife.
(13:24):
But I've never heard you shareit in that way.
We'll go more into it.
But that's the early phase oflife, formative part.
You're CPA professionally.
How is that if you go throughthe arc of life?
So that's before you startedyour professional experience, so
you start it now.
What are those themes and whatare those things are coming up
(13:44):
for you, because in my head I'mgoing let's work to that
culmination of that inflectionpoint where you're like this
I've had enough.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
So for me, cpa was just the logical thing.
Something told me if you can dowell in accounting, you should
go after it, because that willset you up for success.
It's a good baseline foranything in business and I knew
that business was where I wantedto go, following my father's
footsteps.
But when I learned very quicklyin accounting, I don't like
(14:18):
routine, I don't like a lot ofdetails.
It's just not something thatreally excites me.
I like I have a lot of.
I'm an extrovert.
We're on the opposite right.
We talk about why we might nothave gotten along initially.
These are some of the reasons.
I like being out with people, Ilike to engage with customers
(14:38):
and things like that.
So as I was progressing in myaccounting career, what I was
enjoying was implementing asoftware package, because I got
to talk to a lot of differentpeople, I got to understand what
the problems were and I thoughtthis is interesting.
So I actually went to work forthe software company and that
(14:59):
was really a huge change for meto go from accounting over to
software, and at that point Iwas doing professional services.
From there.
They're like oh, you canimplement this, well, why don't
you go sell the product?
So I moved into the sales sideof doing technical sales, and my
progression in my career wasalways oh, we need to drive this
(15:22):
change.
Kathy would be great at that,and what I started to learn was
I had a reputation for gettingthings done.
So if there was a big project,big change initiative going on,
we should call Kathy, we shouldbring her in.
She's going to understandwhat's happening, she can figure
out what the nuances are, wherewe need to get to, and you'll
(15:47):
start to see the story again,nigel, right With the change,
where are we going, what are wetrying to accomplish and what's
it going to take to get there.
And so that's.
My career was really aboutmoving from one team to the next
, helping drive moretransformation, more change, and
I love doing it, and I was inthat 8% of getting things done.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Actually, you know what that 8%?
Let's go a little bit into that, because I just realized that,
so I flipped it around.
So, rather than the 8% success,I actually do the failure part
of it.
Do you mind just sharing alittle bit more about that
insight of 8%?
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Yeah, and I don't have the.
It's actually in, you can lookit up.
It's a number of places thatyou can prove that point.
It is that a lot of people puta lot of good ideas out there
but they don't have theinitiative to continue to see it
through.
They get bored, they don't knowhow to engage the people around
(16:55):
them, they don't want to do thehard work.
So they put this great visionout there.
I'm going to go accomplish this, whether it's personal fitness,
whether it's accomplishment ina career, whether it's starting
a new business.
So most people have great ideas.
They just don't know how to goand execute it.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Wow.
So I thought when I there was aresearch paper that came out on
it, right, and I think it wasit actually even went back to
say, of the people who set NewYear's resolutions, or I think
it, and then extrapolatedfurther into people who set
goals for themselves, only 8%actually follow it through to
(17:38):
the end.
And the way that I actually didit is that 98.
92% of us are failing at whatwe're trying to do by not
effectively managing us.
Right.
We can go a little bit moreinto that, because we'll talk
about managing you.
So it seems like careers goingwell, you have a brand, you're
driving change, you're gettingthings done.
(17:58):
The framework that you have forgetting things done is in place
, but what challenges are youhaving?
Right?
So, still working to thatinflection point of I'm going to
try to do this differently, I'mgoing to walk a different path.
So if you continue down thatpath, so you're doing well, what
else?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, and I think I want to share.
There's one other big thing inmy personal life that had a huge
impact on me to where I get totoday, and I thought about it
when you shared how I hadchallenged you in the beginning
on one of your meetings.
It was I got married at a youngage, so I was married at 20.
And I was getting divorced at28.
(18:38):
And most of my upbringing I haddone everything by the book.
I had followed the script.
I was now married with a white,with a house, with a white
picket fence, with a good career.
Everything was going completelyaccording to plan.
And then the rug was pulled outfrom under me.
(19:00):
I was absolutely gossed, matt,and suddenly I'm divorced and I
was not prepared for it becauseI thought I did everything by
the book.
And you want to talk about yourworst fears and uncertainty and
doubt and where you could end up.
And I ended up in when Ithought was rock bottom.
(19:22):
I was living back in myparents' house in the basement.
I had worked so hard to get thecareer, to get out, to get
married, to do everything theAmerican dream and despite doing
everything, what I thought wasright worst case scenario is I'm
back in my parents' house, so Ialways have that experience
(19:46):
with me throughout my career.
What's the worst case that canhappen?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Okay, so just in how our tangential minds work right
and how we operate.
So recently you took me through.
I was complaining to you abouta challenge that I was having
with something, right, and youthen started walking me through
an exercise.
So then what?
What's the worst that couldhappen in this space?
Right, and that was probably byfar one of the more challenging
(20:15):
things where, when I'mtriggered, I shut down.
Right, and with you I don't getthe opportunity to shut down, I
get to stand there and fully gothrough it.
Right, Because you're going tocall me out if I'm not living
the way that I put forward,right, that I'm coaching from an
(20:37):
EQI perspective, If I'm notaligned, you're going to give me
a hard time.
But that was the hardest thing,right, Because everywhere, every
place that I went, you reallythen held that mirror up to me
of, okay, well, that's how youfeel, but if you speak your
truth, what is the worst thatcan happen?
And then I would say whateverelse it was and you would be
(20:58):
like, okay, and then what?
And we kept going and going andI was infuriated, right, but at
the end of it I sat with it andI was like, holy shit, what is
the worst that can happen.
If you don't like me, you don'tlike me, but I'm still living
my truth right and I am stillliving in alignment with how I
(21:20):
see the world, what I want fromthe universe and what I've been
trying to give to the universe.
What drives that?
Because I'm just drawing off ofthe story of you at this point
and I've struggled with the samething.
I'm doing all the right things,but then I'm coming up or I'm
bumping up to results that I'mnot in line with what I had
(21:40):
planned.
Right, but that was one of thebigger things and we recently
did this.
Where did that come from?
And have you kept it from thisdivorce, this failure?
Help me just to understand thatright, Because I'm sure someone
will benefit from hearing whatis the worst that can happen.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah, it's, that was something that I look at.
And we have stories in our mindand that was what I was
starting to learn.
We tell ourselves a whole bunchof stories and those stories
come from a bunch of differentplaces.
They come from how we werebrought up, from our parents.
(22:19):
They're brought from society,from the books that we read a
whole bunch of places that webelieve what is, you know, the
right thing.
But at the end of the day, youknow, as long as we're able to
find joy, what does it reallymatter?
Right?
And that was the epiphany.
(22:39):
Oh, my gosh, I haven't talkedabout this in so long.
It was the thing that I got tochoose at that point was freedom
.
I had a choice when all of thiswas going down was I could
either live my life in sorrow,in, you know, frustration and
anger, and stay in that place ofI can't believe this happened
(23:01):
to me.
But I realized at that point Ihad a choice and I could choose
freedom.
I could choose what I wanted todo and I shouldn't really live
based on what other people weretelling me I should be doing.
I needed to look at what Iwanted to do and then I can go
from there.
(23:21):
And that actually ended upcoming to light for me was I had
an opportunity to go traveling.
So all of this, so what comesout of getting divorced I got to
move to England, right, I wouldnever have been able to move
anywhere else.
So I suddenly was moving toEngland to pursue some of my
(23:43):
role over there and I now got toexplore the world.
And while I was over there Istarted to learn a lot more
about wow, did you know you canbuy an around the world plane
ticket?
I didn't know that, living inAmerica, we didn't talk about
that very often.
You get a week or two weeksvacation Living in England.
They're suddenly telling me youcan travel around the world.
(24:05):
I'm like, oh, this soundslovely.
And so when someone asked me youknow what's your next job?
And I'm like I don't know, Ijust want to travel.
And they said, okay, well, dothat.
I'm like you can't do that.
You can't quit your job, youcan't travel, you can't write
all of these.
You can't write in.
These limitations are put on usby other people's fears and
(24:28):
certainties and doubt.
And I'm like, no, actually Ican do this.
And I remember having to flyhome to tell my parents hey, I'm
quitting my job and go travelaround the world and talk about
freedom at that point.
And then when someone said youcan't, I'm like why not tell me
why I can't?
(24:48):
Well, you may not get anotherjob when you get back.
Okay, what's the worst thingthat's going to happen?
Right, and you keep playingthose questions out over and
over again.
You realize that actually, ifyou go after what you would love
, what's the worst thing thatcan happen?
You get to do it.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Happiness, I think.
But that's you know I'm smilingagain because you know I'm.
This will be like a testimony,here and now, for the people who
know that I was raised inchurch and that I do have tapes
that will play and it's one ofthe things that I actively try
to manage.
(25:29):
Right, that is not thatwhatever I'm thinking is not the
current situation, it'sprobably something from the past
.
You don't know that.
This is true, but that space offear, uncertainty and doubt
that's passed down from othersaround us and our parents, it is
(25:50):
the last frontier, I think,from my perspective.
Right, because I've alwaysheard you can't, and I was like,
well, I can prove you wrong,but that was an internal
conversation, it wasn't standingfirm in it and saying, well,
why not?
And what's the worst that canhappen?
And going through thatexploration process and finding
(26:10):
that if you're truly doing thethings that you love, as you
said, and that's what's makingyou happy, you only have the
current moment, right, so that'swhere, that's where we should
be oriented, right, okay, sostill going on.
So we have that inflectionpoint and we're still this is
one inflection point leading usto the other one where you're
(26:34):
going to create this radicallydifferent view of leadership.
So keep bringing us along withyou on this story, this journey.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
So I did come back from my travels and I got back
into corporate world again andstarted driving change and I was
loving it.
I was working for largecorporation, getting experience
in a lot of different groups,working with different people,
and some of it was good, some ofit was bad.
It was a challenge.
I always say working in a largecorporation really helps teach
(27:08):
you a lot of resilience.
It teaches you where failureshappen and how to do things
differently, but it also showsyou how to do things in
different ways and in a lot ofways, better ways, right, how it
can work if there's money andprocess and things like that.
So again, I was driving a lotof change initiatives and
(27:30):
unfortunately I hit the glassceiling A number of positions.
I was named as the successorfor my leaders and when they
left I wasn't even offered theinterview.
So it was an interestingchallenge at the time and very
forced me to do a lot ofintrospection.
And why is that?
(27:51):
Is this me?
Is it helped pile on to theself doubt, I think, but we can
talk about that in a little bit.
I eventually ended up workingfor a leader who I didn't feel
should be the leader and Ishouldn't even say he was leader
.
He was the manager of the teamand I really had a number of
(28:13):
months sitting there andrecognizing that I was being
asked to do things differentlythan were true to me and my
values.
I'm someone that cares aboutpeople.
I truly believe if you want todrive change, you need to help
them understand why we need todo things, how we're going to do
it, how it's going to bedifferent, so people can get on
(28:36):
board and be inspired.
And suddenly I was being toldwho cares why?
Just do it.
And it went against everythingin my nature and my values of
who I was and what I wanted todo.
And I thought long and hardabout it and I was working tons
of hours.
(28:56):
I had no balance between workand life.
I came home miserable on adaily basis and I thought this
is ridiculous, this isn't worthmy health anymore, and had long
conversations with my husbandabout it, because when you're
working for a large corporation,there's a lot of financial
(29:19):
stability, right, and it's veryeasy to be comfortable and stay.
And finally I said I can't dothis anymore.
This is not who I am, what Iwant to be, and I need to walk
away.
And so I resigned after beingat the company for over 13 years
and decided that I was going totake a break and figure out who
(29:42):
I was and what I needed to do.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Where is that manager now?
I'm always curious, right,because, to be quite candid and
frank, very transparent, I'vehad some really bad managers
along the way and they all seemto continue to do well.
And to me it's almost thatthing where individuals the
(30:10):
organization knows that theseindividuals are not the right
people for those roles, but theywill keep being put forward.
And for a lot of my career andI don't think I've ever shared
this before, I think, as a blackmale my opportunities as far as
I went in my career.
I never expected to go as far.
(30:32):
So there was a lot of thingsthat I kept quiet about where I
knew it wasn't right, and Ithink we had this conversation
before in the pandemic where,like with the George Floyd
incident, for instance, itwasn't the George Floyd incident
that really was to shift.
For me, it was how my silenceit was seismic for the country
(30:57):
and everything else, but for meit was sitting with that and
then realizing that all theyears that I was quiet, all the
years that I didn't speak up,all the years that I accepted
less than from managers, all theyears that people did things
that were wrong from a raceperspective, from whatever
perspective, and I didn't speakup, I enabled them to treat the
(31:21):
next generations of individualspoorly, and that was so hard and
so heavy for me and I thinksince then I've actually started
speaking up in a different wayor finding my voice.
But it is something that I'malways curious, because only
until recently did I startrealizing that at some point
that clock probably runs out,but I'm always curious where do
(31:43):
those people end up?
What is their end game?
What is the goal?
Because leadership and peopleleadership is something that is.
It's such an honor, it's suchsomething that you're getting to
create something, you'regetting to invest in people,
you're getting to help them seeand believe in things, be
inspired.
But I don't think many peopleactually would take it in that
(32:06):
way.
But I think maybe that's a gooddovetail into so you're done
with this.
Now You've backed from your timeoff and what is coming up for
you?
What are you saying?
I am going to create this andmaybe that takes us into what is
the framework of E equals Y.
(32:28):
And, by the way, just a plugagain here for you, you
volunteered to take my team, mynew team, through this process,
or many of the teams, the newteams that I've had since then.
You take us through the process.
You've donated that time andI'm so grateful for it.
I don't know sometimes if theteams fully appreciated what we
(32:48):
were doing, but your the E3leadership framework is
something that I use as a tablestay.
If I'm preparing for aconversation or an interview, I
get to go back through it and Iget to kind of see okay, this is
what matters to me.
And what was actually prettycool was you also helped me in
(33:09):
that framework to prioritizewhat was important to me, and it
was actually I think I was whenI was interviewing for that job
in Maine.
You actually took me throughthat process of what was
important.
And what was interesting wasthat the money and the location
fell so far below the thingsthat I thought it would be in
(33:33):
money.
I thought it would be where Iwas staying, but after going
through that process with you, Iwas willing to move to Prescott
, maine, for an opportunity, andno one believes that that's six
miles away from the Canadianborder, right.
So I always moved to Canada.
I'm not going to get thinkingabout it, kathy.
I'm not sure if I should bethankful or if I should be upset
that you almost convinced me todo that, but I believe in the
(33:56):
E3 framework, I believe in whatyou're doing and I'm happy like
I'm excited for you to sharesome more of that with the
audience.
So go for it.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Great Thanks.
So the E3 framework reallystarted during that time off
when I stopped to think aboutokay, what is it that I might be
doing different to helpaccomplish things?
Right?
How did I get into that 8%?
And there's a number ofdifferent elements that are
needed to all happen at the sametime, and I like to use the
(34:28):
image of a three-legged stoolright, you need to have all the
legs solid and then you need tohave the seat, so the three legs
are, first and foremost.
You need to be able to expressyour ambition, and expressing
that is what is it that youwould love?
Where do you want to get to?
(34:48):
What does that look like?
What does the goal look like?
And really expressing it in alot of detail.
There is a mantra that I usethink idealistically, not
realistically, because too oftenwe think about oh, I would love
to take a step forward.
Well, actually, before youworry about the steps forward,
(35:10):
where is it that you want to endup?
Where do you love?
Where's that end goal?
And so being able to expressthat end vision helps you make
sure you're not missing andgetting caught up in all of the
little details in between, right, so it starts with expression,
the end vision.
Now you know where you want toget to.
You know what it's going tofeel like when you have the
(35:31):
inspiration for that.
Now you have to think aboutshall I go into engage all of
the people I need to get there?
And so now this gets intoawareness of yourself who are
you, what do you care about,what do you need?
And also understanding otherpeople.
So I might be an extrovert.
I learned very quickly.
You were Nigel right, and sonow to interact and work better
(35:55):
together, I needed to change howI might approach different
things.
I needed to be respectful ofhow you're thinking, how you're
feeling, and there's a lot ofempathy there, of understanding
other people, so that you canengage and work better with them
.
And the more people that knowwhere you want to get to, they
can help you get there.
(36:17):
So that's why the second leg isso important engaging people
around you to help you get tothe end result.
The third leg is aroundexecution, and I've met a lot of
people that are visionaries.
They're fantastic at paintingthat end vision.
They rally the troops andeveryone gets involved and then
(36:37):
they don't accomplish anythingBecause they forget that this is
going to take hard work.
This takes tell plans, it takesoperations, it takes repetition
, and it's all of that toactually execute and make sure
you get to the end goal.
And that's about measuringthings, having milestones, et
cetera.
So those are the three legs tothe stool to really be able to
(37:01):
get to your end result Express,engage, execute.
And then the C is what I callthe emotional qualities that
every leader should have inevery individual, and this gets
into the things around empathy,enablement, empowering others,
being gracious and havinggratitude, and so those
(37:22):
emotional elements are what arethe glue for that.
And you need to connect to thehearts of others, and so when
you look at this framework, itcan be applied in so many
different cases.
So, nigel, as you're saying,first and foremost it's about
ourselves right, being able toexpress who we are and how we
(37:44):
engage with others and how wewant to execute.
And that's the exercise we didwith your teams of creating your
E3 leadership profile, right Ofwho are you, what do you care
about, and really beingvulnerable.
And I know that's hard for a lotof people, but it is powerful
when I watch people really sitdown and do the work, because a
(38:06):
lot of it is what are my values,what do I care about and why?
What am I?
Non-negotiable, what am I goingto walk into and not and be
willing to walk away from anopportunity Because it is
contradicting?
It contradicts what we reallywant?
(38:27):
And so this E3 leadershipprofile is really focused on
defining all that and so that wecan share it with others.
And when you can share it withothers, then you can start to
work better with each other.
And that's the power of beingable to use this framework
(38:47):
personally.
And then imagine doing this asa team and sharing those with
the team and creating your team,and so it kind of goes out like
a concentric circle or when youdrop a pebble in and it just
keeps building those ripples,that when you do it individually
, you do it for your team, youdo it for your function, and
when you get the organizationsdoing it, there is so much
(39:10):
goodness that comes out and avirtuous cycle that's created as
a result.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
I like that.
What's interesting, though,where my mind is going right,
because recently I've had somechallenges where I thought I
enjoyed managing people andleadership, and I've been trying
to figure out the why behind it.
Right, what makes me gravitatetowards that aspect of getting
things done and I think for along time it was that my
(39:40):
leadership philosophy base isgrounded in the fact that I will
not do things that individualsdid to me that I didn't
appreciate, but I didn't have aguidebook, or hey, this is what
you should be doing, boy.
These are the things you shouldconsider.
These are the questions thatyou ask yourself, and I find it
(40:01):
was so enlightening goingthrough that process, right,
because some of it was verysimple, but then it was also not
simplistic, if you will.
What is the challenge, as you,and before we go back a little
bit into you, what is thechallenge that you find?
Right, because this makes senseto me.
So what is the biggest obstaclethat you come up in trying to
(40:24):
implement the framework in, orget leaders to adapt or adopt it
?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
I think it's the EQI side of it, it's the emotional.
A lot of people think businessis business and I don't need to
bring the woo-woo into it right.
You often hear, oh, you can'tput a big heart up on your slide
and I think people are nervousabout being vulnerable and
that's scary for a lot of people.
(40:54):
And I think the other part ofit also the realistic side of it
is I've got tasks to get doneright, so they get really caught
up in the execution side ofthings of I just I have a
deadline, I don't have time forthat and in reality you'll get a
lot more done if you juststepped back and you looked at
(41:14):
the bigger picture and you'reworried about bringing your
whole team along.
But people just get caught up,and we all do.
I get caught up as well.
You get caught up in thewhirlwind of the day-to-day
activities and you needreminders of wait a minute.
I need to pull back here andask myself what are we trying to
accomplish?
What do we need?
How are we gonna be successful?
(41:35):
How do I inspire and enableothers?
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Oh, wow, okay, I like that and I'll leave it there.
But I wanna go back to you,cathy, right, so that's a big
shift.
That's, if you're thinkingabout that goal of eradicating
poor leadership, right, how areyou?
What was that?
Flipping that switch or moving,like, what were the challenges
(41:58):
of to move in that direction?
Because sometimes it's easy toenvision it, but then how do you
make it happen?
How are you managing you tomake it happen right At that
point in time, like, what arethose conversations you're
having with yourself at thattime?
Speaker 2 (42:19):
It was.
One of the reflections was whatwould I do if I wasn't getting
paid?
And that for me was really hard, because I'm not a creative
person, I'm not someone that canpaint, I can't play music.
I can technically play music,but I don't.
(42:39):
I can't listen and get the beat, and things like that.
So a lot of things where wethink, oh, what's your passion
in life?
Just didn't seem tangible forme.
Like it just I'm like nope, I'man operational person.
This isn't.
I got nothing.
I got no passion in life.
And when I started to sit downand think about it, I recognized
(43:01):
what I loved doing was talkingto other people and finding out
what they wanted to do and whatthey love to do.
And I realized that, whether Iget paid or not, I love
inspiring and enabling people.
I truly believe we have theanswers within ourselves and we
just need a muse almost to pullit out of us and help us bring
(43:24):
it to fruition.
And I'll tell you a story.
It's a little bit of a tangent,but I'll never forget.
I was in England, I was workingand I was sharing an apartment
over there.
So I went out to dinner with myhousemate and he was like oh,
kat, can you get me a job atVodafone?
This would be fantastic.
You're working there.
You can take my resume.
(43:44):
I'm in marketing.
Can you get me a job?
I really wanna work forVodafone.
And I'm like do you really?
I'm like why do you?
He said well, I don't know, Ineed a job, I just need a job
and please.
I said, all right, well, let'sget a minute.
If you could do anything in theworld, what would it be?
And he's like well, I have amarketing degree.
So I said take a step back and,honestly, if you could do
(44:06):
anything in the world, and he'slike oh, I'd be a race car
driver.
And I'm like ooh, all right.
Well, that might be a littletough now at this point.
But we started talking about ita little more and I said well,
wait a minute.
You're living in England.
There's a number of Formula Onecompanies and car manufacturers
in England.
You have a marketing degree.
(44:28):
Why aren't you going afterthose companies to bring your
experience to them so that youcan really live your dream?
He's like all right, so thiswas right.
Before I left to go traveling,what an amazing email I got.
Six months later, he emails me.
He's like chef.
You'll never guess where I am.
(44:50):
He's on the pit of a FormulaOne race.
I am working for the marketingteam and I am living my dream.
And I was like, oh my God, andthat was just like from a simple
conversation, right.
I was just asking him whatwould he love?
I didn't do anything exceptpull that conversation out.
(45:11):
And I had a lot of thoseconversations over my life and
I'm like, wow, this is, thismight be my superpower, this is
fun and understanding where mypassion was and what I love.
I'm like, okay, that's asuperpower.
There's a real problem in thisworld where I think there's
crappy managers across the board.
(45:31):
Only 33% of people are actuallyengaged and enjoy their job.
We know that 92% aren'taccomplishing the goals.
Right Now, I'm taking all thistogether and going what can I do
?
What should I?
How do I leverage all this?
And that's when I said I needto create a business.
(45:52):
And I started to build thisframework and I said I wanna
bring this to other people andfigure out how I can help
businesses, you know, reallyimprove leadership development.
And that's.
I have this vision.
Imagine when you're gonnainterview for a position.
Someone had the certificate ontheir wall and they're an E3
(46:12):
leader and you knew that theyused this framework and you knew
that they cared about peopleand they had the emotional
qualities.
You'd be like, oh, I wanna gowork for that person, right?
Or imagine you're going to hiresomeone and you could see that,
and then suddenly you're like,okay, maybe I can walk into a
place and I'm gonna be in abetter place, other than you're
(46:33):
going in with a hope and aprayer, right, that you're gonna
get a good leader and you'regonna have a good experience.
So that's my vision and that'swhy I started this company and
that's what motivates me on adaily basis.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
I'm smiling and that's awesome.
I and, as you're transitioning,you found your super flower.
What was your kryptonite?
Right?
Speaker 2 (47:03):
My lack of confidence .
It comes back to what westarted this conversation.
I have a lot of self-doubt.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, but the self-doubt portion of it is
what's interesting and I thinkit's really cool for the
audience to hear.
The self-doubt is back to thesame thing that the tape that
you have right, and sometimesthat's not true, and these are
some of the conversations thatwe've had, but I think in our
context and in our interactions,it's just a delay in getting
(47:33):
moving or getting the actionattached to the ideas right.
One of the things that was coolis that once you got moving,
then you really got moving.
It's like a glitch or theawareness that you had it.
It was a glitch, so it was likeI have this and this is what I
know, this is what I'm aware of,so this is what I need to do.
But running your own business isvery different than a corporate
(47:55):
setting right, and I think someof the things that we talked
about was the same self-beliefand the ability just to sell
yourself.
I think one of the challengesand I don't know if you've seen
it is that I realized the stuffthat I was doing the EQI stuff.
It was that it was my balance,so I could have the worst day at
work, but if I'm able to helpsomeone right, I was good.
(48:19):
So I would do the EQI work forfree right.
I would give it to anyone whowould actually benefit from it,
provided that I was making the.
You know what I mean making asignificant salary right that I
could afford it.
That's my way of giving back.
But what you're passionate aboutdoesn't necessarily equate into
(48:40):
being able to do it well as abusiness right and I think
sometimes we have we'repassionate about the ideas but
don't necessarily always facethe reality of then what we're
passionate about making it intoa business.
That's a huge leap and I thinkthat's some of the conversations
that we've had.
So is there any insights thatyou can share with someone who's
listening about what thattransition is like, what that
(49:04):
the mindset, how you manageyourself, because there's a lot
more going into it than just youknow.
I have these thoughts or theseepiphanies right.
So I don't know.
I don't know that's too much toask, but maybe you can just
share a little bit about again,the managing you through the
transition and the growth thatyou're seeking in the challenges
that you're working past.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Yeah, that is a lot.
I rely on my framework a lot,I'll be honest, right.
So I apply it for myself and Ihave the envision.
So really understanding, andyou really have to have the
passion, because if you don'thave the passion and you're
really doing it to just make apaycheck, it's going to be hard,
(49:49):
right.
So I think when you can startwith the passion, that gets you
through some of the toughestdays, because what this?
Starting a business requires alot of grit, consistency and
hard work.
Right, it's not easy and yourego is involved on a lot of days
(50:11):
.
Because when you're startingthe business, it's one thing.
When you're selling someoneelse's products and they don't
like it you know, you didn'tdefine it well, we haven't
figured out the customer problemyou can put it on someone else.
When you're starting your ownbusiness and you don't get it
right, you're like, oh, that'sall I'm made, right.
So you really have to have a lotof commitment and belief that
(50:34):
you can do it, because it's hard.
And then you have to be able toreally just say is there a
problem?
And validate that other peoplehaving a challenge that you can
help with and if you cancontinue to validate that
there's others out there thatneed that support, then that's
you know, there's going to begood days that help propel you
(50:54):
forward, and you're like, yep,okay, this is why I'm doing this
.
And when you get that reviewfrom someone, they're like, oh,
my gosh, this made a hugedifference.
You're like, yep, I'm on theright path.
All right, I'm going to putthat in a jar and I'm going to
hold it up, and you always wantto open it up on the bad day.
Keep going.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
But the crazy thing is that you know how the mind
works is that the positivethings are not as amplified as
the negative things orexperiences.
Right and those are some of thethings that we've talked about
as we've gone through similarjourney is the idea of how do
you manage, you know, while I'mtrying this new thing and I'm
(51:34):
making these five steps forward,I believe, but it's not getting
the same traction as I wouldlike, right?
And how do you so?
If you know that self doubt isyour thing, right?
How do you then still manageyou through those situations?
So, yeah, you have theframework that you follow, but
(51:54):
that's the same.
You know the headline, right?
What does that look like?
How do you manage you?
So, to have your best day, whatdoes that look like?
And don't talk about justknowing that we will speak at
once a week and that's alwaysyour best day, but you know how
do you?
It's always it, oh, thanks.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
Just looking at what are the big rocks.
You know what do I want to getdone?
And recognizing, I call it theblack box, right?
So that self doubt is a blackbox that I know sits inside of
me and I have conversations withit, so don't tell we've just
told a whole bunch of peopleit's nice.
(52:36):
I start my morning, mostmornings, with a miracle morning
and I go through a structurewhere I talk about my
affirmations and what I'mgrateful for and visualizing
what it is that I want toaccomplish.
And it really the days I don'tdo it and you and I have talked
(52:57):
about it.
I've gone, I've ebbed andflowed the days I don't do it or
I go for long periods of timewhere I haven't done it.
I know I'm at a wap because theself doubt talk track or that
black box gets louder and louderand so I haven't tamed it.
So you got to name it, to tameit, and then you got to work on
(53:18):
making sure.
Hey, I know you're there butyou're just trying to knock me
off because you're fearful ofsomething else.
Right, it's having that quiettime in the morning to reflect
and respect what might be goingon and choose the freedom to go
for and know that the passionand the belief are what you want
(53:38):
to go for.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
I'm smiling because one of the cool things I admired
was that you and Ralph do thistogether, ralph's Kathy's better
half husband, my favoriteperson in the family, which I
often let her know.
But one of the coolest thingswas to know that you guys would
go through that miracle morningtogether and the tenets of it.
(54:02):
I think there was one timewhere you shared with me the put
your mask on first right, thatidea of you know if you're the
oxygen mask yeah.
Right on the plate.
So it's like I try to talk alot about the self-care portion
of it.
This just highlights theimportance of self-care, right?
You're not going to be yourbest self if you're not
activating practices, thingsthat would help you to be your
(54:26):
best self to show up in thatsame consistent manner.
But now, kathy, how we end mostof it because you were one of
the first people who wentthrough the EQI assessment with
me, right, like, I think, once Iwas certified to do it, we then
traded.
So I did your clarity full of D.
You did the EQI assessment.
(54:47):
You thought that it was way toomuch information.
You thought that it was 20pages and it was way too much
information.
But we found a way for you toget through it, and I think
kudos to John Hughes, right, whoworks on a method of debriefing
(55:08):
that you can then followthrough on.
But we did a really cool thingin that you did it the first
year and then we worked onthings individually, back and
forth, right, coaching eachother in different ways, and
then you did it a second year,right.
So we did an evaluation a yeardown the road.
So do you mind just takingthrough the audience and what
(55:28):
you learned in that firstassessment and then what came
out of the second assessment.
Speaker 2 (55:37):
Yeah, so there were three main things where there
was a big difference, and one ofthem was self-regard.
That was my number one.
Hey, I have an opportunity here, and you and I are always on
that personal journey of how toimprove and taking care of
ourselves.
I wasn't necessarily surprised,but to see it with the data
(56:00):
helps.
You sometimes think, oh yeah,maybe not, but this comes out
with the data and you go, ohyeah, no, this is my lowest
score and you helped me take itbeyond just a score and saying,
well, what does that mean?
So how do I adjust that?
So if my self-regard is notgreat, then what's that outcome
(56:23):
look like?
On a positive side, and it wasto help others, to help see
myself as others see me, and weset that as a goal right and we
started working towards it.
We also learned from it and Isay we because, as you learned,
you helped coach me right andyou got a great done that with
problem solving and makingdecisions is something that can
(56:46):
really cause challenges for me,right, because I want to, I
don't want to miss out onanything, I want to make sure I
can do everything, and so it washamstringing me sometimes of I
wouldn't make a decision becauseI didn't want to get it wrong,
and so I realized that I justhave to make a decision.
When I don't make a decision,that's when the problems show up
(57:08):
, that's when I probably havemore failures.
I just need to make thedecision and have that
confidence.
And it was great, right, whenwe looked at the report the next
year, we deliberately wentafter fixing well, fixing, you
know, focusing on these itemsand the numbers went up.
And I mean the numbers went upacross the board, right, and I
(57:31):
truly believe by havingawareness of what they were and
where you are allows you thenput that plan in place on how
you're going to go improve them.
Speaker 1 (57:41):
Yeah, you know, as you're saying, that, it's just
really interesting how theself-regard and the idea on
self-regard again just torefresh your audience is like
it's.
You would not necessarily youwould beat yourself up about
mistakes, so you'll probablylike me, I measure five times to
cut once.
But that can be a lot ofemotional waste and certain
(58:03):
instances, right, if we go tothat concept and then the idea
of so, when you get into problemsolving and you're afraid to
make a mistake, what individualother individual would then
experience is that you want tobe right.
And recently in my head I kindof flipped the switch, flipped
from, you know, seeing someoneas wanting to be right, as
(58:24):
opposed, instead of saying, well, this person's afraid of making
this mistake, which is a verydifferent dynamic in itself.
Right, so that is actually cool.
But I like where you landed inthat we can practice what we
want to be, and this was kind ofwe were like the test group, if
you will, right on seeing howwe can tie action into the
(58:47):
awareness that we were getting.
One of the things I'm alwaysfascinated about.
What are you learning now aboutthis If we just go back to
leadership throughself-leadership, through how you
want to help people, and I knowwe had that conversation about
the radical candor part of it orthe second part of it, but can
you share with the audience whatare you learning now about that
(59:10):
self-leadership, leading others?
What's that green growing edge,if you will, of the work and
the things that you'repassionate about?
Speaker 2 (59:23):
Leadership.
Leadership development is ajourney and I think so often we
think about it as a class or aone-off.
I'm going to read a book orI'll get my whole team together
and we'll do a one-day of thekumbaya and everyone feels great
, but in reality, we all go backto our day jobs and we all get
busy.
So when I'm really learning andI had applied this and a number
(59:48):
of the companies I was at aswell, and that's what I'm
bringing to market here is itneeds to be continuous and you
need to practice.
When you look at the EQI andthe improvements that were made
throughout the year, that wasn'ta one-time report and we came
back a year later and hoped thatit was going to be better.
It was practice and it was youand I meeting every week to
(01:00:13):
bring it back to fruition.
That's what leadershipdevelopment is.
And it's an individual journeyto know yourself, no others.
But it's a team journey andit's about putting a lot of
these practices together as ateam and getting comfortable
with having difficultconversations, giving feedback,
(01:00:36):
being aware and calling you out.
I called you an a-hole thefirst day I met you, but that
broke a barrier pretty quicklybecause if we didn't go there,
we would have stayed on thesurface level and we wouldn't be
talking today right.
Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
You know it's funny.
You call me that.
It was the first time someoneever said it in that way or
cared enough to say it, becausein my head I would shut down
right Whenever I'm like okay,you don't want to do this, I go
the other way.
But you leaned it and Iappreciate you so much for who
you are and how you showed up,how you supported me, how you've
(01:01:17):
believed in me and the thingsthat I'm doing and how you've
encouraged me, even on the dayswhen I would not like you for
giving me the feedback that youwere giving me, and those were
some good days.
But I do believe that and one ofthe things that you shared is
that and you've helped me toappreciate is that there is joy
(01:01:39):
and bravery and also, once youfind the thing that you love and
you're doing it, there's somuch things that are possible in
life right, and you show up ina very different way.
Things are lighter in so manyways.
So I appreciate you, kathy.
Thank you for taking the timeto chat with us today, and if
(01:02:00):
someone wanted to reach andconnect with you, where would
they find you?
Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
They can reach e-equals-y at wwwe-equals-ycom.
We don't always get thespelling correct, and you can
find me on LinkedIn as well.
You're Kathy Eastwood.
I have a number of videos onYouTube.
We have a lot of leadershipnuggets that are out there.
People want some practicaladvice on how to improve their
(01:02:26):
leadership on a day-to-day basis.
Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
So I would say thank you, mrs Eastwood, and thank you
Ralph, just because.
Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
That's why you like him better because he's doing it
.
Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Talk to you soon.
Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
Thanks so much, appreciate it.
Bye.
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