February 13, 2024 • 54 mins
Have you ever peered into the mind of a coach who shapes Ivy League scholars into golfing masters? Kevin Rhodes, Harvard University's men's head golf coach, joins us for a conversation that's as much about the swing as it is about the strategy behind crafting well-rounded student-athletes. With a heritage steeped in golf and a dual role at the storied Country Club in Brookline, Kevin imparts wisdom that strikes a chord not just with those aiming for the green but anyone seeking balance in life's pursuits.
Amid our candid discussion, we navigate the complexities of collegiate time management, uncovering how Harvard's golfers juggle the demands of academia and athletics with finesse under Kevin's tutelage. Mental fortitude takes center stage as we reveal how leadership, developing a critical yet nurturing coaching voice, and embracing technology can galvanize an athlete's growth. But it's not all about the digital; we also pay homage to the timeless virtues of patience and presence in the quest for personal and professional excellence.
In our final strokes, Kevin and I celebrate the intrinsic joys of the coaching journey, from the revelatory impacts of biohacking on performance to the simple pleasures found in refining a skill or mentoring a willing pupil. Leadership anecdotes and high-performance insights are par for the course as we recognize the Harvard men's team's influence on the golfing world. Tune in, get inspired, and discover the lessons from the fairway that apply far beyond the 18th hole.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measure
Golf Podcast where I, michaelDutro, have fantastic guests on
and we talk all things amazinggolf performance things that we
can possibly come up with inabout an hour.
So this week is really special.
We took a little time off forthe holidays and whatnot and
this guy's been traveling abunch because he's a busy man
(00:28):
this time of year because it'scollege golf season and we're
very fortunate to have noneother than Kevin Rhodes, the
men's head coach from HarvardUniversity or from the Harvard
University, and we're very, veryexcited to have him on because
Kevin kind of has a very longtrack record with the game of
golf.
Not only is he currently themen's coach, but for a very long
(00:49):
time was both the men's andwomen's coach at Harvard, and
not only that, also kind ofhangs around a pretty cool place
it's got some history and golflore called the Country Club and
Brookline Massachusetts.
So Kevin is fortunate enough tobe the lead instructor out
there as well for thatmembership and does a fantastic
job as well as helping the menand women of Harvard and
(01:10):
generally it's just good for thegame of golf and has like lots
of fun stories.
So we thought we'd have him on,so without further ado, kevin,
you want to say hello toeverybody?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Michael, thanks very much for having me on.
It's a true honor.
I met Michael at the 2020 USOpen at Brookline and have felt
fortunate to keep in touch eversince, so thanks for having me
on.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, I was just showing Kevin an old picture of
us with.
He's definitely a mentor and ahero of mine and I would imagine
Kevin would probably feel thesame.
But I was showing him a pictureof the three of us at the
Country Club and it was PeteCowan was the third and we were
fortunate enough to get to spendsome time talking to the man in
black himself and I justthought it was really cool man
(01:55):
Like he is.
Just I don't know how hestrikes you but like, when I
think of Pete Cowan I think of apro's problem.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, the best.
I mean to have someone that hasthe knowledge base that he does
, the playing ability that hedoes, to be able to like truly
relate to best players in theworld and then, to you know,
have the teaching passion,skills to be able to like help
other people, like become great,you know, completely
(02:23):
extraordinary.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
So yeah, I saw Pete at the past year's Open
Championship and obviouslythings were going on, but Henrik
Stinson happened to be therehitting balls on the range
really late at night and hewasn't playing in the field.
But I guess when you're HenrikStinson they let you do that
(02:44):
kind of stuff, right?
So Henrik Stinson's at therange at the open late I think
it was either Friday or Saturdaynight and all of a sudden
Henrik's young son pulls a golfclub out of Henrik's big staff
bag and like starts hitting golfballs too.
And I thought it was thewildest thing I've ever seen in
my life.
Kevin.
Like I'm like what is going onhere?
(03:05):
Like this is at a majorchampionship, right, but, dude,
nobody does anything about it,nobody says it's awesome, it's
the coolest thing ever.
They're just letting the sunhit the ball together.
It's like a thing of beauty.
And Pete's down there withThomas working with him and kind
of wraps up with Thomas andPete walks over and starts
talking to him a little bit andthe next thing, you know, pete
(03:28):
walks over to the kid and Ithought, oh man, pete's going to
like give him the runoff and belike hey, kid, you can't be
doing this right now and thisisn't the time and place.
He didn't do anything like that.
He like spent 20 minutesworking with the kid, showed him
a couple of things.
The kid noticeably hit the balla little bit better, like it
was amazing.
And it's like that, in my mind,is like what it's all about.
(03:50):
Right, like you know, the title, the ego, the mystique of Pete
Cowan and that moment metnothing and all he wanted to do
was help somebody else hit thegolf ball a little bit better,
like how cool was that man?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Golf.
We're very lucky that we have abunch of people like that in
our sport.
You know, not anyone that'slike him, necessarily, but a
bunch of people who the game isthe important thing and they'll
pass it on.
And he's got the juice and he'sgot the you know awareness to
know whether that would workthen or not.
So, like I don't know, we'rejust, we're very lucky, that's
(04:21):
for sure.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
It's amazing man, and you know another instructor
that I don't know that I wouldsay that a lot of his swing
stuff is stuff that I kind ofuse in any way.
But something that's alwaysstruck me about David Leadbetter
is, if you meet anybody who'sever worked for lead including
lead himself they are pros, pros, they're utmost professionals.
Andrew Park, gary Gilcrest, Imean, these guys are just solid,
(04:45):
solid individuals and honestly,it's what attracted me the most
to you is that you're a reallysolid guy in your own right man,
and I I don't think thatthere's any qualms about that,
or I don't think you would bethe person to lead the group of
individuals that you're leadingright now.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Well, that's very nice of you to say it the way
that you did, but I come, I'mlucky.
Excuse me, I come from a familyof golf professionals, so my
dad dad.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
By the way, I don't think that people know this.
I didn't know this until I didthe research.
Where are you from?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, I'm a West Coast guy, grew up in San
Francisco Bay Area, california.
Just yeah, I mean my dad.
My dad grew up in SouthernCalifornia.
He played the tour, went to USC, was an All-American there,
played the tour for seven yearsand then came off the tour
straight into the job that heheld for 41 years.
(05:38):
He was the head professional atSan Francisco Golf Club for 41
years.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
What was it like growing up there, Kev?
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Well, we didn't, you know, we weren't members there.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
So we play a little bit right, like you got out on a
Monday every now, and thenMonday.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Monday's, yeah so, but you know it's this extra
special place with extra specialmembers, extra special golf
course and you know, a truerespect for the game and
reverence for the game.
They just they're all peoplethat like, love the game and
know it really, really well.
So I think my dad felt very,very fortunate that he was, that
(06:16):
that's the place that he wentand that's why he stayed as long
as he did.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I mean that's a long career at a club.
I mean people don't realizelike that's a really difficult
thing to do because when youwork at a high end private club
they tend to be managed by theboard.
And the thing is is that theboard comes out of the general
membership and the chances thatyou upset a member are pretty
good in the private golfbusiness.
So you know, every year there'sor every couple of years
(06:42):
there's some turnover and it'shard to keep everybody like kind
of in your corner man.
So hats off to your dad.
That's not an easy feat.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
There's all these things that I kind of you know,
we there's some Mark Twain quotethat said something about.
You know, when I was a kid of16, then, you know, I thought my
dad was the most ignorant manin the world.
And then, you know, by the timeI was 21, I was amazed at how
much he had learned, but I neverthought that about my dad.
And yet, you know, when I wentaway to UCLA and was not
(07:12):
recruited, was trying to makethe golf team there, and then
was reading as much as I couldfrom best players, and then you
know best sports psychology andlistening to interviews and just
observing as much as I could, Igot a much greater sense of how
correctly my dad did things.
You know, because every time agood player would say, well, I
think about it this way, orwhatever, I, you know, come to
(07:34):
this conclusion.
I'd be like, oh, that's what mydad says, and that just
happened over and over and overagain.
And then you know that's on aplaying side, and then to be
able to transfer that into aclub side and a teaching side.
You know, I'm 20 years in at thesame place and you know it's
the greatest place in the worldand I'm the most lucky.
(07:55):
Well, both places, both at theCountry Club and at Harvard I
work around great people all day, every day, and it's a huge
reason why I'm, you know, notback on the West Coast where a
lot of my family is, but, youknow, I wouldn't want to be
anywhere else.
And yet I look at that and I'm20 years in and my dad did more
than double that in the sameplace and I'm like how do you
(08:17):
have the energy to keep on going?
The consistency, the valuesystem, you know all that stuff,
and so you know for me to havethat as my primary example and
then to continue, that theDirector of Golf at the Country
Club is Brennan Walsh and he's,you know, tied for the best in
the business.
Director of Golf at Harvard isFred Schoenacker, and he's an
unbelievable mentor, and youknow.
(08:39):
So I'm just, I'm incrediblylucky.
So, yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
That's kind of wild man, I mean.
I always tell people I thinkgolf is this incredible gateway
for young people.
And the reason I say that isbecause I look at like my
background and where I come fromand definitely had it better
than most, and I'm not trying topaint any negative pictures,
but I definitely was exposed tothings through golf that I
(09:04):
wouldn't have otherwise beenexposed to and I really do not
believe that I would be assuccessful or feel the way I
feel about myself if it wasn'tfor golf in my life.
So I just think that it'sinteresting to hear, like you
know, growing up not necessarilyat San Francisco Golf Club and
I understand what you mean, I'veworked at private clubs.
You're not a member.
(09:24):
You get to kind of like see ita little bit better than most,
but you don't necessarily get tolike play with all the shiny
things.
So I get what you mean.
But at the same time you'restill around those people and,
to your point, right, like thoseare really motivated, highly
successful people.
That's why they're at that club.
And when you start hangingaround those types of people you
(09:44):
start picking up on theirhabits, right.
So you know a lot of people.
They are going to be a littlebetter read than maybe at the
public university or the publicschool.
So I mean you just kind of pickup on these habits and, like
you said, man, you've alwayskind of been in these positions
to where it's like such a greatspot to be.
If you can kind of like maybeslow down the ego a little bit
and go, hey, let me sit back andlearn a little bit, like you're
(10:06):
going to really take in a lot,it's one of the hardest things I
think you know when you'reyounger, which is if you, if you
, you know, have some faith inyourself and you know kind of
what your aptitude and abilitiesare.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
you know it's like I shouldn't have everything right
now, and it does feel that wayand it does take a long time,
kind of, to find your way tofind the right people to be
around to.
You know, for awesome people infront of you to kind of like
let their careers run theircourse and then, you know,
eventually have space for you.
So but, yeah, that that balancebetween patience and also still
(10:41):
working as hard as you can, toknow as much as you can, to be
as good as you can, that's a Ithink that's a hard balance, but
anyway, sometimes we get luckyand sometimes we find that.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Part of mentalization and time management skills that
you have to possess must be offthe charts, because I mean
you're not doing anything.
That's kind of easy, man.
You know what I mean.
Running a golf team isdifficult, like I mean.
I work and consult with several.
You know Division One, divisionTwo programs, and I mean the
commitment on the kids is offthe charts relative to a normal
non-athlete.
(11:13):
You know, student going toschool, and when you and I'm not
trying to say that Harvard doesit better, harvard does it
different or anything like that,but it's just there are
expectations that are differentwhen you go to the Ivy Leagues,
especially when it comes toacademia, and I mean the load
that the young men and womenthat you've coached in the past
(11:33):
have at Harvard is unfathomableand you're expected to lead
these people.
And what most people don'trealize about college coaching
is there's never any time to doanything because of breaks and
because of you know there's acalendar and you know you can
only do so much.
And then you're going fromthere and you're like, okay,
well, let me have a littledowntime.
I just spent all my day withthese future leaders and
(11:54):
achievers.
Now let me go take a littledowntime and you cruise over to
you know the country club andnow you're teaching a bunch of
high end, expecting to beachieving adults and like they
expect results and you're ableto go and deliver an amazing
coaching experience for them andthen do everything else that
you do, man, I mean like that'sno small feat and I think that
that's really overlooked by alot of young coaches.
(12:16):
In terms of the time managementyou need to be successful in
this industry.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Well, as as always, you say things extremely well,
nuanced.
You're able to put yourself inother people's positions
unusually well.
So, that said, it's all that isvery kind to me.
Like I said, I just there's alot of things going for you know
the situations that I'm in thatreally I just feel very
(12:41):
fortunate for.
So, for example, the academicstuff.
You know, balancing academicsand and trying to be the best
players that we can be.
You know, first, if they, ifyou're not eligible, you can't
do it.
But our kids are very much.
You know, not every place isunique and the big hope is each
(13:02):
person finds the place that'sthe best fit for them.
You know the kids that we arevery fortunate to get and that
I'm very fortunate to work on.
One thing I never have to do istell them to study or like do
what you need to do just to beeligible.
They are, it's so who they arethat they would never not work
as hard as they could to get thebest grades that they could in
(13:24):
school, and so you know that'sjust.
That's not an issue.
What that does do is it doesmake it interesting to try to
then balance how do you also beas good as you can be, you know
golf wise.
And again, we're very fortunateto recruit kids that are really
good competitive players beforethey come here.
(13:44):
And I think the biggestchallenge that we have is we get
every once in a while someonewho wants to turn professional
and kind of pursue that andoccasionally that that happens
for sure.
But we, most of the kids, arekind of, you know, going to turn
pro in something else.
And I feel like absolutes areeasier to pursue when you're
(14:05):
like I put everything into beingthe best student I can be, or I
put everything into I'm goingto be a professional golfer.
Those are, you know, not thatit's an easy road in either
direction, but it's easier tosay oh well, all my decisions
are made for me because I'm allabout this.
When they're trying to excel atboth and they have to kind of be
(14:27):
nuanced about, as you said,time management and also kind of
how do I prioritize?
And when you know the messagewe always send is is academics
first and then golf is a closesecond.
That's, we're looking forpeople that have alignment in
their value system in that way,but that's, it's easier said
than done.
It's hard to go to, you know abig D1 college tournament for
(14:48):
our kids with players that anumber of our kids have competed
very well against in the pastand they go there and we've been
spending it's something like,you know, between two thirds and
three quarters the amount oftime on golf that they are, and
yet we want to.
You know our guys want to andour gals want to kick everyone,
you know, but just like theother kids want to kick, our
(15:10):
butt, yeah, so anyway, for themost part, I mean you've had
from that's.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
the thing that is wild to me is like you have had
very high levels of success,kevin, like this this is not the
reason I wanted to have you on.
It's not a normal collegecoaching job.
I mean, as much as yourhumility shines through and you
try to minimize that, you'rejust doing what you do and I
respect that Like it's not anormal job Like we're talking
(15:36):
about.
You know golf in school, thesekids also were.
You know college aged right andwant to have social life too.
So we got to fit that in thereand the thing is is to your
point.
It's very difficult to do andyour, your kids that you're
working with, are not only doingthat, but they're also having
success in both, in both lanes,and I think that's a testament
to leadership always.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Well, thanks, I, you know I, I just I keep coming
back all the time too.
I'm very lucky because my youknow my dad I was around it
early but my dad never forced itI would.
You know, when he came off tourhe was still invited to play in
the Crosby every year.
Being Crosby was a member atschool golf club and stuff, so
(16:19):
we'd go down and watch himcompete in that and like I
thought that was what golf wasfor a long time.
But then when I started, youknow, really it's like mid high
school, when I started trying toget better at the game and then
deciding, I think I want to tryto play in college and then,
like I kept at it my firstcouple of years at UCLA when I
wasn't on the team, and I think,just because I continued to
(16:41):
have such strongly positiveexperiences with the game, then
I I don't know and my dad justkept on doing it at such a high
level over and over again that Ijust have, I have very high
passion for being around it atwhatever the highest level is
that I can be, and so I hopethat that's, you know, one of
(17:03):
the big things.
We go in and out and I'm surethat our kids have felt.
You know more or less of thisfor me over the years, but for
the most part I really likebeing around people.
I really like trying to getpeople to be as good as they can
.
Well, I like them to.
I like to try to help peopleget what they want, whatever
that is.
And if I'm with some highperforming people and I can keep
(17:25):
things in a positive, healthy,controllable, as much as
possible light, you know, that's, that's what I'm lucky, that
that's what I enjoy doing.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So, yeah, I mean that's, that's just general life
rules, right?
Like you know, you know you canhave an amazing impact on so
many people just by like sayingtheir name to them.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
It's kind of one of the oldest tricks in the book.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Right, like I, you know, stop wherever I stop in
the morning and get like acoffee or something.
And it's like you know, theygot pretty high turnover because
it's a stressful, crappy joband like nobody wants to do that
.
And it's like I swear to you,man, sometimes, like I always
look at their name tag and Ialways call them by name and the
looks you get from some peoplejust for like recognizing the
fact that like they're just thehuman being, right, it's, it's
(18:07):
crazy man.
So I don't disagree, but Istill think it's amazing, like
what you guys do.
I mean it's, it's just reallyhigh performing culture.
And that's one of the biggestthings I wanted to talk to you
about is, you know, you've seenit from the playing perspective,
you've seen it from the clubperspective, you've seen it from
the coaching perspective, right, like, and you kind of know,
(18:28):
like there's some like justnon-sartors you've already kind
of alluded to that right, like,I don't have to tell a young man
or woman at Harvard that theyneed to study, like that kind of
.
You know, we don't even bringthat conversation up, they
already know the rules.
But, like, what are some ofthose things you think that
really stick out in these highperforming cultures that maybe
you notice when you go, and youdon't have to.
I'm not asking you to bashanywhere, sure, sure, and then
(18:52):
you can just stand out at otherfacilities.
You know, like man, I don't.
I don't know how this is goingto work without having this
thing in place.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yeah, yeah, no.
So again, my mentors that I'vehad, and you know, between my
dad and my uncle, and then RickMartino, who was the director of
instruction for the PGA ofAmerica when I worked for him
for a year and a half, comingfrom Oakmont he was coming from
Oakmont and then Brennan Walshand then Fred Schoeniger.
You know, at all these places Ithese are super high performing
(19:21):
individuals and they care aboutpeople and you know it's both
as simple or as complex as youwant to make that, but you know
I continually Not have to remindmyself because it is somewhat
who I am.
I do like people and I careabout people.
A lot of times people say, youknow I'm too nice or what it is,
(19:43):
but that's balanced with, youknow, really badly wanting to do
well.
Also, because I think if youknow, if I'm only nice and I
don't try to help people and wedon't and we aren't successful,
any of the stuff that we'retrying to convey to them Starts
to ring hollow and it doesn'treally, you know, give the
impact.
So, or that's gold.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, that is such gold right there man.
You are absolutely right.
You cannot just soft out of itall the time with people, man,
because yeah, never learned.
That just becomes the norm andit just yeah, right, and it.
I think what you said there,man, and so many people miss,
miss that to where you know, I,I kind of, and I run a facility,
(20:27):
right, so I'm around the peoplethat I work with a lot more
common than most coaches arearound their clients.
You know, maybe for the weeklylesson or whatever, I'm seeing
my players two, three times aweek if they're coming here to
the facility.
So it's really interesting,though, how people are like man,
I can't believe they ever comeback here.
And I'm like why?
And they're like, man, you justripped them a new one like that
(20:49):
.
That didn't seem fun at all,like I wouldn't come back for
that.
And I'm like, yeah, like I getit and and you're right, and
that's why I would never rip youthat way, because if I rip you
that way and you don't have thatwanton, that drive, you're just
gonna fold up and think I'm ajerk and like, think I'm taking
a bad day out on you.
But with my youngsters, likewhen I rip on them, right, they
(21:09):
go out and they figure it outand, and, and most of my kids,
because this is what I recruit,you know they're kids that need
that.
That fires them up and theycome back harder at you and and
what I'm looking for them tocome back right and go hey man,
thanks for giving me thatbecause I needed that, because I
wasn't doing my job.
And when you can get kids tostart thinking that way and
start being able to handle someconstructive criticism, dude, it
(21:31):
changes everything.
Because then when you are nicewith them, they know it's
sincere and they know thatthey're doing well because they
know that you'll tell them whenthey're not.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, that's super well said and you know I, it is
a challenge that I will Run intosometimes with, you know, if we
have limited time to work ongolf and I do think Confidence
is something that I try toprotect at all costs for sure
and then I have to be carefuland right and ride a line,
because if I'm always boostingconfidence, then when are they
(22:01):
learning and when are theygetting anything of value?
So but if I'm, you know, alwaysripping, that doesn't probably
work either.
I think a lot of times our kidseffort is never an issue with
them.
I think, before I started, youknow, college coaching here, if
I had any conception of Harvardit would be oh, it's all just a
bunch of brilliant people andthey, like, don't even have to
work.
That's not, you know, they'rejust, they're gifted and you
(22:24):
know, sir, certainly from anaptitude standpoint they're very
, very high aptitude.
But I would say the thingoverwhelmingly in, you know, 19
or 20 years of working here, isthe effort level is Just sky
high all the time.
So most of the time I neverneed to Correct because, you
know, I don't need to yell atthem like ever, because that
(22:44):
would be if they weren't tryingor if they needed a Different
motivation.
And that's never a problem.
I have to find ways to kind ofconvey a message based on I know
you're trying as hard as youcan, but still we need to be
correct in this way.
And I Read a thing it was justan article about reflections on
Saban this week and one of thethings that one of his you know
(23:07):
coaching staff said about him isso I don't know, I've never met
coach Saban but but talks aboutyou know, if you're not
coaching it Then you can'texpect it.
That really coach, you know,tell them what you want and why
it's a value and stuff like that.
And I do find Sometimes In my,in my lesser good moments, when
(23:27):
I'm more tired and more lesspatient and stuff like that,
there are certain things that Imight consider like base,
foundational things and theymaybe don't do it and I'm like
what are you doing?
You know, in my, in my bad space, I'll get mad at him, at least
to myself, and say why aren'tyou doing that?
And then I think about it moreand say why haven't?
I guess I haven't clearly askedfor that yet.
(23:49):
They don't know why it's avalue, they don't know that
they're doing it or not doing it.
So just tell them and Tell themwhy.
Most of the time our kids, if Itell them why and what's behind
it, the value behind it, they'llget behind it.
If they know why, it's eithergoing to help them or it's going
to help our group.
So I think that's one of theother things that I in my better
space.
It's always like you need tocoach what you believe and what
(24:13):
you think is important and thendon't be surprised if they don't
know it.
Yet I kind of think more andmore.
I think common sense doesn'tthat much exist.
I think you know Everyone'scoming from, it's more global
and you know differentexperiences and stuff like that.
So don't be surprised ifsomeone doesn't know something.
Just explain why it's a value.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
So I think that's gold too.
I mean, I'm gonna take it aslightly different way and I
agree with you right, like as acoach man, you know.
Like, for example, in theweekends you know I'm slamming
coaching all weekend.
It's wild, but, like you know,I'm standing there and it's like
maybe the sixth person that'shot that day or whatever.
And I'm like to your point,like I'm a little tired, I'm a
little cranky, and it's like youknow I see him do something.
(24:55):
And it's like man, like I knowyou know better, you know what I
mean like I know, and you dowant to walk over and like slap
them upside the head and be likewhat, why don't you get this?
But at the same time, man, likethere's been so many times to
where I've walked out there andjust Flipidly made a comment to
somebody like, oh my god, you'venever said that before.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I've ever said you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
And like they.
Just they receive it adifferent way.
So yeah.
I think one of those things thatyou have to remind coaches is
like you just have to keepcoaching what's in front of you.
You know, it's not about whatyou coach before, it's not about
what you're gonna coach sixmonths from now.
Like you just got to show upand coach what's in front of you
.
So one of my big rules that Itry to have is like I have
(25:38):
amazing technology, have thebest technology that there is.
I have it all, whatever youwant.
So like I know that, like if Ishow up and I'm present, that
I'm not gonna get this wrong,like I'm, I'm, I'm just, I'm not
, I'm not gonna be rude, I'm notgonna be disrespectful, I'm not
gonna say anything and put myfoot in my mouth.
If I can just like show up andbe present, this golf experience
(26:01):
is gonna go really well forthis person.
So that's all I got to do, man.
And it's like it's so hard to dothat.
And like the modern aid whenyou're running around and doing
this and doing that.
But, man, it's like it's it'srefreshing to hear somebody else
say that, because it's so true.
Man, like you just really haveto keep.
Like that's the thing aboutbeing a coach man it's.
You're never done being a coach.
(26:22):
You're always coaching untilyou go out in a wooden box.
So you know you just got tokeep doing it.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I love everything you said.
That I think it's right on andit does remind me again I have,
I'm very lucky, I have 11 yearold twin girls and you know
certain things it's like andthey are phenomenal kids and I'm
so lucky and but you know, weneed, as humans, we need
constant attention, we needconstant reminders, we need this
and and if, if we keep on doingthat and can remember that
(26:48):
that's what it takes to kind ofdevelop, help develop a human,
then yeah, then we show up, bepatient, be present, and then a
lot of good things will happenover time.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, I mean it's wow , right, I mean I, I find it
hilarious, man, it's.
You know, we're reallyfortunate that.
I really think, like you're anagent of calm, you know, I mean
that's that's what I would referto you as and that's kind of
like what I, the college coachesI advise, like that's what I
always call them.
I call them agents of calmBecause if you kind of think
(27:19):
about it, man, like, in certainsituations, you know, the coach
tends to be at the facility awhole lot, right, like that's
kind of like their little nestand it's like these birdies are
just flying in all day and likedude, everything in their life
is crazy.
You know what I mean.
Like you know, and we're nottalking about men and women of
Harvard Maybe have it a littlemore put together we're talking
(27:42):
about maybe this kid's making atwo, five GPA and hanging on by
a threat.
So I mean you're, you'reconstantly the one place that
these people are going.
That's consistent.
And like the, the trick for acollege coach, I think, is you
can kind of be a little over thetop, negative, you can be a
little over the top, you know,positive, but you better be
(28:02):
consistent with it, right, yeah,because, like, if you're not
creating that sense of calm inthat nest, then these kids
aren't gonna keep gravitatingtowards you and then you're
gonna have a real hard timegetting all your hands to want
to fly in one direction.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
And a great reminder, because it's true, they take so
many cues from us.
You know, either on purpose ornot, and Totally so, if we're,
if we're ramped up and stufflike that, about you know a shot
didn't go well or a rounddidn't go Well, then they, you
know they're justified and alsofeeling that way too, because
that's what they saw modeled.
(28:37):
So I love your calm in themiddle of the storm An analogy,
I think that's.
That's that's right.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
It's crazy, like I just did another podcast the
other day.
I was invited on and they askedme they're like what's the one
thing that you do now that youwish you would have been doing,
like when you started coaching,right like what's, what's the
big thing?
And I really think they thoughtI was gonna say something about
ground reaction forces orsomething like that and kind of
get they wanted.
But actually I gave him myhonest answer, which is neuro
(29:08):
peak, pro Right and teachingkids how to breathe.
And I think it's been, without adoubt, the single Number one
thing that if you improve yourbreathing, you improve
performance Is a lot of things.
And it's like, once again, youknow, do we want these kids to
perform Well?
Of course we do.
(29:28):
We want these kids to performbetter than anybody else.
Like, we're invested in this,we've spent money, we've got
time, we've got feelings, we'vegot all these things invested in
these kids.
We want them to do so well andwe push them so hard and I'm not
saying you do per se, but I'mjust saying in general society
pushes them so hard and thenit's like, oh, we're over
(29:49):
simulated, we have absolutely noroom left to like, take
anything on, and that first shotthat goes crooked out there.
Man, it's like the world cavesin on their skull because they
cannot internally regulate.
So in my mind.
I mean, that's just what it'sall about in life is being able
to Absorb what's coming at youand make good decisions and
(30:10):
hopefully not have the samething keep happening.
So you know, breathing, I think, is kind of important and when
I, when I talk to these, theseteams, man, and you see the
teams that are having success,it's just funny to me how much
it's less about the X's and O'sat this level, kevin, and way
more about the, the human factor, if you will.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
So kind of two quick thoughts about that one that
just I'm again from the SanFrancisco Bay Area, so I'm a
Golden State Warriors fan andand a Celtics fan, but Totally
so, but but awesome in all ways.
And Steve Kerr, I'm a big fanand someone, yeah, kind of sent
(30:53):
a quick, a quick hit that he did.
And he was talking about kindof what you know what he
experienced when he startedcoaching and went to go see a
lot of different coaches, one ofthem, which was Pete Carroll,
and Was in a camp with him andlike the end of the second day
called him into his office.
So he and Pete Carroll is likewhat are you gonna coach?
And he's like, well, like whatdo you mean?
What offense am I gonna rent?
And Carol said something likeyou know, no, no, no, that
(31:14):
doesn't even matter, it's likewhat are you gonna coach?
And and Kerr said I didn't knowwhat he meant, but eventually
it got to like you know yourvalue system, what do you truly
believe in?
And that will set Kind of thetone for what the players are
going to experience day in andday out, and if we kind of know
ourselves and know what thatstuff is and then try to model
(31:35):
it, then I think you know that'sthat's going to be super
helpful.
And I love a couple that youknow.
One of them was competitivenessbut another one was empathy and
another one was joy.
And you know I I don't knowI've gotten that from that team
and watching that for many yearsand it's pretty fun to watch.
But the other thing that mademe think is that the thing that
made me think in the breathing,in the space, to take what comes
(31:59):
at you and kind of thing, I hada player at the club asked me
to read a book, to vet it, thatjust came out like not that long
ago, but it's by Dr RaymondPryor and it's called Golf
Beneath the Surface.
Maybe you've read it or not,but I really like it.
I think it brings a lot ofdifferent things together that I
(32:19):
think you know We've heard, orheard snippets of, for for a
long, long time, but it kind of,yeah, brings them in under one
cover and I'd I'd recommend itto a lot of people.
I think it's pretty fantastic.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
So right there, you have to look that hard.
So this is the mindful athletewith George Mumford Awesome and
like this is.
This goes back to what we'retalking to me, right, this is
like hot topic, right, like yougo and look for mindfulness and
any of that, like I mean, youcan't get more like on topic and
on brand if you try.
(32:54):
But when you read this book,george Mumford was brought in to
work with the bowls Duringtheir run we're going back to
the 80s, brother, and like thatonce again.
Like this breathing, thismindfulness, this, you know,
getting to a creative space towhere you can slow down the
stress and kind of see playsunfolding before they do.
(33:15):
This all goes back to likebreathing and it's not something
that's new, like I, I know.
Like we bring up, I sayneuropeak problem, they're like
oh, that's, you know, that's allwitch doctor stuff.
And like it's all new.
No, it's not new, it's just,once again it's taking
technology Right and applying itto concept that maybe is very
(33:35):
old and then using thattechnology to show somebody how
to apply that Concepts.
Like that's that's all it istraining for right.
So I think that you know there'sa lot of those things that go
into these high performingcultures that have been around
forever.
But I think the great thingabout social media is like guys
like you know, you and me couldhave conversations and we can
(33:56):
compare notes now and it's likeI think a lot of you know Our
best secrets are really the, thebasic stuff that just kind of
goes into being well-rounded andbeing able to perform at a High
level.
You know, obviously recovery isa big one, you know.
I, I, I cannot stress enoughand I'll say it to you, and I
don't I'm not sure if you guysdo this or not, but you know,
(34:16):
for college athletes, I thinkthe single best thing you can do
with them is a whoop strap, andI don't think it'd have to be
an athlete, I think, just foryoung people in general, and I'm
not saying that like Inecessarily think that the whoop
strap is the most accurate orany of that stuff, but what it
is is it's consistent ontoitself and now at least that
person can understand what'sgoing on with them.
And like when these youngpeople start seeing like how
(34:39):
much this sleep really screwsthem up man Like they kind of
course correct themselves.
I.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Isn't that great.
Yeah, god, I couldn't agreemore.
I think it's fantastic, and youdon't have to have it on for
that long before you start toknow your way of doing things
and knowing what you're doing.
I don't have one on now in fulldisclosure.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
I mean, I know somebody's gonna get on the
internet and kill me.
I don't have mine on right nowI haven't worn it in about a
month but I know my numbers arepretty much set, like I know
exactly what I have to do andthat if I'm not in bed by 10, I
can't get my sleep score to 70.
And I need my sleep score to beat 70.
So my recovery is at 92 or 93.
So I mean, like just knowingthat stuff, man, if I can get my
(35:21):
recovery in the green and Ishow up to play golf, man, I'm
going to play better, or atleast feel better playing at a
92 than I am a 65.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
And who knew, alcohol didn't make you sleep better?
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Wow, it's weird, right, Like I think that's why
whoop has such a hard time withadults, because they just hate
seeing how much that beer reallyhurts.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
I love it.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
It's crazy though, man, but I mean I really think
you know, I've spent less andless time kind of traveling and
doing education, like taking ineducation.
I've been doing more educationmyself, but the education I am
taking in, man, I keep findingmyself like these biohacking,
like conventions, Because Ireally once again to kind of
(36:04):
drive this home.
You know I'm talking to a guythat's achieving a lot at a
really premier program that hasreally high standards.
But, once again, what are wetalking?
We're not talking like swingplane and all that.
I mean I really think it's moreabout the human element as you
go up in levels.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Incredible.
Yeah, I agree, and I again themore I know, the more whoops
here, there you go.
Yeah, the more.
I know the more I agree withwhat you just said.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, I mean I can't imagine like you, can you
imagine going back to yourplaying days, like with the
information that you have now?
Like it's wild, isn't it?
Like I mean, I'm sure you thinkthat way, just like I think
that way right.
Like if we had force plates andtrack man and like actually
understood, like that we werebreathing like idiots because we
were 18, and you know what I'msaying.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Like man, what's so good?
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Crazy.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
I know.
So I know we do the best we canwith what the available info is
and we know a lot now, which isit is really fun.
We feel I feel very lucky to beteaching and coaching at this
time.
It's awesome.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Your favorite.
I'm curious you get to wear alot of different hats which I'm
jealous of because I get forcedand just a couple of them but,
and you get to see the sun,which I never do, as you can
tell.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
That's why you look way better than I do.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
My curiosity is like where's your happy place
teaching?
Like if you had to go and teachtoday.
Ok, you can be at Harvard withthe men and women, or just the
men.
You can be at Brookline.
You can be wherever you want tobe, like where's your happy
place?
Coaching Like if you had togive one golf lesson the rest of
your life.
What are you coaching and whereare you coaching at?
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah, so yeah, my answer is going to be a hedge,
of course, because it really isthat I like all of the different
things that I get to do,because they're different.
The commonality is that Igenerally get to spend time with
people that are choosing tospend time with me.
Nobody's forced to, it's alllike by choice, so they're kind
(38:09):
of bored.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
They're even paying sometimes, isn't that crazy?
They even pay you a little bit,like that's what you want to do
.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Well said, but so they're relatively open, they're
relatively like, happy towhatever, but I love all of it.
So at the club I'm very luckythat we have driving range and
we have practice putting greatin a short game area.
But there's also a third nine,the primrose nine, where I love
being able to get out on thegolf course and actually take
(38:37):
things, see what's presentingwhen they're out there, letting
them talk me through things,observing what they're doing.
That might be different thanwhat's on the range, deciding
whether we just stay out therelonger or whether we take what
we learned out there and then goto a place that's a little bit
more efficient and do that backin the practice area.
But that's another thing that Ido feel very lucky about.
(38:59):
The college coaching is, whichis instead of an hour, half hour
, 15 minutes, where I get tospend with someone, usually in a
practice area.
In the college coaching I getto watch them do all of it.
I watch them practice, I watchthem play for fun, I watch them
play for qualifying, I watchthem compete and I get to also
(39:20):
cross-reference all those thingsand say, well, wish things
really are showing up whenthey're under pressure or
they're playing in a competitiveround and then work my way back
to all those other areas whichmight be the best place to help
them work on those things, toget them ready to go back out
and do it again.
So I love the variety and Imarvel every year that both the
(39:42):
club and the school let me doboth of those and that my wife
and my family also let me dothose things, because I really
like all of them.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
That's awesome man.
And I think one thing if you'restill listening to this podcast
to this point, you may kind ofget a feeling that Kevin has to
be fake, that this can't be real, he can't be this happy, he
can't be this joyful.
But I can assure you, everytime I've ever talked to him,
he's this way and I honestly tryto live up to that standard
(40:13):
that Kevin presents, because Ifeel the same way Kevin does.
We have the greatest jobs inthe world.
We do them at completelydifferent places.
He could tell me a laundry listof reasons why he's right and I
could tell him a laundry listof reasons why I'm right.
But at the same time, we bothlegitimately feel that we have
the best jobs in the worldbecause I believe I do and he
believes he does.
So we're very fortunate becausewe both know what we enjoy doing
(40:37):
and that's obviously helpingothers right, and there's a lot
of different ways that you canhelp people, and I think one of
the things that I enjoy the mostabout golf is that it is so
closely related to life.
There's a lot of life lessonsout there and I love golf.
It's very challenging andcomplex and I love the fact that
I can go out there and playwith somebody that knows
(40:58):
technically a third of what Iknow, and he goes out there and
beats me, and that reallydoesn't sit well with me, but it
happens and that's just the wayit goes.
Man, it's one of those games towhere you never can stop
learning, because you're alwaysgoing to find something new.
And it's one of those gameswhere you can never stop
improving because the coursesjust keep getting harder and
harder, so you kind of have tostay at it.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
That's funny.
I don't know, Early on Iprobably had a preference for
not stating that stuff asovertly, Just because I don't
know it sounded wrong, maybe howI was growing up or whatever to
golf as metaphor for life andstuff.
But it's totally true and themore I go, maybe it's more age
(41:43):
appropriate now that I can saythings like that a little bit or
sneak it in there a little bit.
But it's true.
All the things that you saidit's hard, it's fun, it's you
never, you certainly nevermaster it, that's for sure.
I don't know if you get tocompete some, but I definitely,
again, with my dad as my model.
My dad's still working on hisgame and still competing and
(42:06):
loves it.
And, luckily, when I can do it,I do it just because I think
it's fun.
And I think when I stoppedplaying, that was the first
thing I wrote down, which isdon't forget what it's like to
be a player, Because I can siton the other side of that and
tell people what to do or try tocoach them up the right way and
stuff.
But trying to continuallyrelate to what that's like, I
(42:30):
think is really really important, at least for me.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Let me throw this one at you.
You might like this.
I made a decision late lastyear.
I was over in London with someof my good mates that are new
friends of mine over there, andthey were nice enough to take me
out and play some golf and Ireally fell in love with golf,
(42:53):
again thanks to a guy by thename of James Day.
And James has a golf clubcollection that would make you
blush and I mean he's got allthe cool.
It's nothing, that's like crap,it's all like really cool stuff
like from back when we wereyounger and whatnot.
So I got to play with some oldpubs that are really cool golf
course called the Addington, andwe had a real blast.
(43:16):
But I kind of I had a weirdexperience we played.
The weather wasn't great, itrained.
I didn't have golf shoes, I wasin tennis shoes and my feet
were soaked.
And like I'm one of those superprepared guys, like I've got
the full Galvin green rain.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Like and like.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
I'm so out of my element here and I should be
miserable, I should just befuming.
I'm not playing overly well,like nothing's going right.
But I just had this amazingexperience because we were
playing golf.
It didn't matter like what theshop did, like we were just
playing golf, man, and like Iwas like there's something there
because I've been a miserablegolfer for a long time and I'm
(43:51):
just no fun to play golf with.
I know that.
And it's not because I likethrow a temper or anything, it's
just I'm pretty quiet because,honestly, I'm just kind of like
frustrated and disappointed inmyself.
Sure, no, I just can't makemyself do it all the time.
So, like I coach golf for aliving, and I coach golf at a
high level for a living.
So in my world it's all aboutperfects and like trying to make
(44:13):
everything right and that itminimized this, and so you're
going to love this.
But I'm going vintage man.
So I've got a bunch of old golfclubs on the way and I have a
new found friend named ToddDempsey who makes modern
persimmon woods and we got someballadas and we're going to
(44:34):
start like playing golf again,man, because that's where I
think this industry is losing it, man, because it's all decimal
points and X's and O's, and likegraphs and like I don't know
about you, man, but most peopleI think got into golf did not
have to learn graphs.
So like I'm just trying to getback to having fun, man, and
like play golf for what it is,which is, I think, a social game
(44:56):
, and I think that that's whywe're happy, man, because we're
social and, you know, we get toshare what we're passionate
about with a lot of other people.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Dude, that's badass.
Like yeah I, I, I'd like Todd.
He was a couple of years aheadof me at Arizona State and he
wouldn't know who.
I was, but I know what he doesand I just I can't believe it.
What he did in in Q-School lastyear, right Playing with those,
I don't, even I don't.
It's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I have a sickness.
I got deliveries today.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
That's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, man, it's going to be great.
But I mean that's, you know, Ithink I think back to San
Francisco Golf Club, and I don'tI've never been there, I've
never stepped on the property,but I have a vision in my head,
right, and it's black and whiteand it's grainy and it's it's
old man, and it's like I thinkback to that and I just nobody
knew anything, like peopledidn't even know the world was
round, right.
(45:52):
Like I mean like people knewnothing and people were out
there still perplexed by thesame problems that we're
perplexed by, and like to me,like that's what golf is about
and I get it, man, like I've gota QI 10 with a graphite, I got
all the cool stuff too.
But like there's also likeanother way to enjoy golf, man,
(46:13):
and I think what we've talkedabout today is just about every
way to enjoy golf except likehow to swing a golf club.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Awesome.
And that's a sort, that's asource of enjoyment too.
You know you, you find in itwhat, what's good for you, and
then do that as much as you canwhenever you have time to do it.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
So but you're, we're all just like addicts at the end
, right, Like we're all justlike degenerates and can't get
enough.
I mean that's.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
That's basically what it boils down to my wife would
absolutely agree with that.
I'll I'll finish teaching aftera full day and then I'll come
home and I'll eat something andeither you know if a major's on,
I'll start watching that, orafter I spend time with the
girls and they go to bed, thenI'll like pick up a pattern and
start working on it.
What are you doing?
(46:59):
I don't know.
It's a different thing when I'mtrying to do it versus other
people, and all of them are fun.
All of them are great.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
So yeah, exactly so I thought.
Last thing, here you brought upsomething really interesting.
You brought up Nick Saban, andI'm a huge Nick Saban fan.
I was freaking heartbroken whenhe retired and I mean, I get it
, man, like the guy is way aheadof the curve and he understands
things much better, and hedefinitely understood that the
nil thing was a new thing thathe wasn't going to figure out in
(47:29):
his time, that he had left.
But you know, I think if youlook at, if you look at Nick
Saban and you look at BillBelichick, one thing that really
stands out to me is, likecoaches like and I'm including
us in this conversation coacheslike always demand discipline.
We always demand it Like yougot to be disciplined, you got
to do the right thing when thattime comes, like you got to
perform.
Like we expect all thisdiscipline, and the one thing
(47:52):
that coaches generally do notexhibit is discipline.
Right Like.
You think to a lot of collegecoaches on the sidelines, man,
like, think about the way thatthey're leading their team, like
they're going nuts, they'rebrats, they're throwing things,
they're cussing, they're kicking, they're screaming, right Like.
I really think, though, when youwatch Saban, unless it was just
like a really bad call and heonly did it every now and then
(48:15):
like pretty common collected,bill Belichick, pretty common
collected.
And when we're talking aboutlike ultra high performing, you
know teams or communities orwhatever you want to call them,
right, like you're talking abouttwo of the best to do it in
their sports and leadership,remain calm.
And one thing that I'll sayabout you is that I think you
(48:36):
have a very calming presence,right, and it's like I think
that when you talk about likewhat do high performing places
things do, it is create calm,right.
It's manage the noise, it'scontrol the controllables, it's
really putting a plan together,right, but I think that that, at
the end of the day, is reallywhat it takes to be a high
performing kind of person andfacility and to lead people to
(48:59):
the high performance.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
I think it was in a podcast with maybe with Gio
Valiente, that he was talkingabout kind of have your stuff
together, because if you'reasking other people to do it and
you don't do it, it's not goingto ring true as much.
So I hope I'm attributing thatcorrectly.
But I liked that.
When I heard that and Idefinitely try to do that and I
(49:25):
also going to UCLA, my wholefamily except for me kind of
went to.
My mom, went to Cal, buteveryone else went to USC
Southern Cal and so I, when Iwent to UCLA, I became I was
disowned from the family, notreally.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
I figured.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
But one of the great gifts that I got when I went
there which is unfortunately itwasn't on my radar before I went
there but after was John Wooden, and I've read a lot and so has
everyone else that's coachedand stuff and he just said I
kind of I'm not specialized,just a guy who tried to live up
to his beliefs as well aspossible, but but he was also
(50:05):
all about preparation and doingeverything to prepare his team
so that once you get to thegames there's not a lot of
yelling and that kind of stuffthat needs to be done.
Someone told me I met aPatriots player that played on
the Super World team where theyplayed against the Falcons and
they were down big at halftime.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
And it was 23 or something.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
So, and you know they said I don't know, I'm speaking
out of school, but he saidsomething like you know, what
Belgics said to the team athalftime was not this crazy
fiery speech and pump up orwhatever.
He said something like if youplay better, you can win.
So I don't know, I mean thefire motivation right.
There's a time and placesometimes, but there's also a
(50:50):
time and place, as you've beensaying really well, which is to
stay calm and let people know.
You know we'll make adjustments, but you can do this if we've
prepared correctly.
You know, have faith inyourself and believe in yourself
and then go out and operate thepractice has to be harder than
the competition or you'll neverhave success.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Yeah, and you know, one thing that I always remember
is a friend of mine told methat he once noticed Brooks
Kepke was like looking at acalendar and like there were
dates circled.
And like he was like, what areyou looking at?
And he's like, oh, just likelooking at my off days, he's
like, are those the days circled?
And he's like, yeah, and thoseare like tournament days.
And like Brooks looks attournament days as off days
(51:33):
because like he worked out somuch harder and everything else
during the week to get ready forthat, but like by the time he
gets, that's the easy part, healready did the work.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
And I mean I thought we need to practice like that.
That's like he gets nodged.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
I'll tell you what man, that dude.
I've seen him practice and likehe doesn't need to practice
because one of his practicesessions would last the average
dude about three years.
Like I mean, it's pretty, hegets the work, man.
But you know, I think that onceagain, like he, he doesn't look
at it the nerdy way, right,he's not going well.
Let me chalk it up with youguys, x's and O's.
(52:07):
He's going like hey, if I getmy body right, my mind right,
I'm going to come out here andbeat the math.
And that's just kind of how hesees the world right.
And I think you have to have alittle bit of that warrior
spirit.
But once again, to use thegreat John Wooden, you know, if
you're not prepared, man, itdoesn't matter how much bravado
you got, you don't have what youneed.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Yeah, yeah, oh man, happy for Brooks that he you
know he showed it again lastyear and then he can do it now
as long as he wants to.
So it's pretty impressive.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
I'm not the nathayer.
I think that you know there's alot of people in the golf
industry that have hurt feelingsover what's been going on and,
honestly, anytime the businesscomes to the forefront, people
kind of get, you know, lessinterested because it's not raw,
raw and about feelings anymore.
But I think golf's in a greatplace.
I think the performance you'reseeing at the signature event is
unbelievable.
I mean, you got to go out thereand you got to shoot 30 under
(53:01):
man and these aren't easy setupsand what you're seeing
performance wise, prettyincredible.
But, with that said, you are abusy man and I do not want to
keep you anymore.
And, dude, I really appreciateyou coming on.
This has been fun.
Speaker 2 (53:13):
This is as always.
I don't get much of it, but Ienjoy my time with you very much
.
Thanks for your questions,thanks for everything you do.
Thanks for focusing.
Like you said, I do thinkgolf's in a really good place.
For sure, I know the otherstuff will die down at some
point not that far in the futureand we'll just get back to
focusing on the amazing thingsthat are going on.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
So well, that's for sure.
And Kevin is always out theredoing stuff If you're interested
in kind of keeping an eye onhim.
I don't think he does very muchon social media, if anything,
but you can kind of payattention to the men's Harvard
team, see how they're playing,see where they're going to be at
.
One thing real quick before wego I have a couple of kids that
play at Villanova, and one thingthat we've always talked about
(53:58):
is the team at Harvard man.
They are professional andthey're a good group of men, and
the way that they go aboutrepresenting the game is second
to none.
So once again, thank you toKevin for leading them and
helping them become the bestthey can be, and it's been a
real treat because it's veryrare that you get to talk to
people who have lived a trulyincredible life and have really
(54:19):
been around some great people,and to share some of that wisdom
has been great for all of us.
So thanks so much for tuning in.
Please make sure to subscribeand share this with anybody that
you think would be interested.
So thanks again to Kevin anduntil next time, keep grinding.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measure
Golf Podcast where I, michaelDutro, have fantastic guests on
and we talk all things amazinggolf performance things that we
can possibly come up with inabout an hour.
So this week is really special.
We took a little time off forthe holidays and whatnot and
this guy's been traveling abunch because he's a busy man
(00:28):
this time of year because it'scollege golf season and we're
very fortunate to have noneother than Kevin Rhodes, the
men's head coach from HarvardUniversity or from the Harvard
University, and we're very, veryexcited to have him on because
Kevin kind of has a very longtrack record with the game of
golf.
Not only is he currently themen's coach, but for a very long
(00:49):
time was both the men's andwomen's coach at Harvard, and
not only that, also kind ofhangs around a pretty cool place
it's got some history and golflore called the Country Club and
Brookline Massachusetts.
So Kevin is fortunate enough tobe the lead instructor out
there as well for thatmembership and does a fantastic
job as well as helping the menand women of Harvard and
(01:10):
generally it's just good for thegame of golf and has like lots
of fun stories.
So we thought we'd have him on,so without further ado, kevin,
you want to say hello toeverybody?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Michael, thanks very much for having me on.
It's a true honor.
I met Michael at the 2020 USOpen at Brookline and have felt
fortunate to keep in touch eversince, so thanks for having me
on.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, I was just showing Kevin an old picture of
us with.
He's definitely a mentor and ahero of mine and I would imagine
Kevin would probably feel thesame.
But I was showing him a pictureof the three of us at the
Country Club and it was PeteCowan was the third and we were
fortunate enough to get to spendsome time talking to the man in
black himself and I justthought it was really cool man
(01:55):
Like he is.
Just I don't know how hestrikes you but like, when I
think of Pete Cowan I think of apro's problem.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, the best.
I mean to have someone that hasthe knowledge base that he does
, the playing ability that hedoes, to be able to like truly
relate to best players in theworld and then, to you know,
have the teaching passion,skills to be able to like help
other people, like become great,you know, completely
(02:23):
extraordinary.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
So yeah, I saw Pete at the past year's Open
Championship and obviouslythings were going on, but Henrik
Stinson happened to be therehitting balls on the range
really late at night and hewasn't playing in the field.
But I guess when you're HenrikStinson they let you do that
(02:44):
kind of stuff, right?
So Henrik Stinson's at therange at the open late I think
it was either Friday or Saturdaynight and all of a sudden
Henrik's young son pulls a golfclub out of Henrik's big staff
bag and like starts hitting golfballs too.
And I thought it was thewildest thing I've ever seen in
my life.
Kevin.
Like I'm like what is going onhere?
(03:05):
Like this is at a majorchampionship, right, but, dude,
nobody does anything about it,nobody says it's awesome, it's
the coolest thing ever.
They're just letting the sunhit the ball together.
It's like a thing of beauty.
And Pete's down there withThomas working with him and kind
of wraps up with Thomas andPete walks over and starts
talking to him a little bit andthe next thing, you know, pete
(03:28):
walks over to the kid and Ithought, oh man, pete's going to
like give him the runoff and belike hey, kid, you can't be
doing this right now and thisisn't the time and place.
He didn't do anything like that.
He like spent 20 minutesworking with the kid, showed him
a couple of things.
The kid noticeably hit the balla little bit better, like it
was amazing.
And it's like that, in my mind,is like what it's all about.
(03:50):
Right, like you know, the title, the ego, the mystique of Pete
Cowan and that moment metnothing and all he wanted to do
was help somebody else hit thegolf ball a little bit better,
like how cool was that man?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Golf.
We're very lucky that we have abunch of people like that in
our sport.
You know, not anyone that'slike him, necessarily, but a
bunch of people who the game isthe important thing and they'll
pass it on.
And he's got the juice and he'sgot the you know awareness to
know whether that would workthen or not.
So, like I don't know, we'rejust, we're very lucky, that's
(04:21):
for sure.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
It's amazing man, and you know another instructor
that I don't know that I wouldsay that a lot of his swing
stuff is stuff that I kind ofuse in any way.
But something that's alwaysstruck me about David Leadbetter
is, if you meet anybody who'sever worked for lead including
lead himself they are pros, pros, they're utmost professionals.
Andrew Park, gary Gilcrest, Imean, these guys are just solid,
(04:45):
solid individuals and honestly,it's what attracted me the most
to you is that you're a reallysolid guy in your own right man,
and I I don't think thatthere's any qualms about that,
or I don't think you would bethe person to lead the group of
individuals that you're leadingright now.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Well, that's very nice of you to say it the way
that you did, but I come, I'mlucky.
Excuse me, I come from a familyof golf professionals, so my
dad dad.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
By the way, I don't think that people know this.
I didn't know this until I didthe research.
Where are you from?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, I'm a West Coast guy, grew up in San
Francisco Bay Area, california.
Just yeah, I mean my dad.
My dad grew up in SouthernCalifornia.
He played the tour, went to USC, was an All-American there,
played the tour for seven yearsand then came off the tour
straight into the job that heheld for 41 years.
(05:38):
He was the head professional atSan Francisco Golf Club for 41
years.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
What was it like growing up there, Kev?
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Well, we didn't, you know, we weren't members there.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
So we play a little bit right, like you got out on a
Monday every now, and thenMonday.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Monday's, yeah so, but you know it's this extra
special place with extra specialmembers, extra special golf
course and you know, a truerespect for the game and
reverence for the game.
They just they're all peoplethat like, love the game and
know it really, really well.
So I think my dad felt very,very fortunate that he was, that
(06:16):
that's the place that he wentand that's why he stayed as long
as he did.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I mean that's a long career at a club.
I mean people don't realizelike that's a really difficult
thing to do because when youwork at a high end private club
they tend to be managed by theboard.
And the thing is is that theboard comes out of the general
membership and the chances thatyou upset a member are pretty
good in the private golfbusiness.
So you know, every year there'sor every couple of years
(06:42):
there's some turnover and it'shard to keep everybody like kind
of in your corner man.
So hats off to your dad.
That's not an easy feat.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
There's all these things that I kind of you know,
we there's some Mark Twain quotethat said something about.
You know, when I was a kid of16, then, you know, I thought my
dad was the most ignorant manin the world.
And then, you know, by the timeI was 21, I was amazed at how
much he had learned, but I neverthought that about my dad.
And yet, you know, when I wentaway to UCLA and was not
(07:12):
recruited, was trying to makethe golf team there, and then
was reading as much as I couldfrom best players, and then you
know best sports psychology andlistening to interviews and just
observing as much as I could, Igot a much greater sense of how
correctly my dad did things.
You know, because every time agood player would say, well, I
think about it this way, orwhatever, I, you know, come to
(07:34):
this conclusion.
I'd be like, oh, that's what mydad says, and that just
happened over and over and overagain.
And then you know that's on aplaying side, and then to be
able to transfer that into aclub side and a teaching side.
You know, I'm 20 years in at thesame place and you know it's
the greatest place in the worldand I'm the most lucky.
(07:55):
Well, both places, both at theCountry Club and at Harvard I
work around great people all day, every day, and it's a huge
reason why I'm, you know, notback on the West Coast where a
lot of my family is, but, youknow, I wouldn't want to be
anywhere else.
And yet I look at that and I'm20 years in and my dad did more
than double that in the sameplace and I'm like how do you
(08:17):
have the energy to keep on going?
The consistency, the valuesystem, you know all that stuff,
and so you know for me to havethat as my primary example and
then to continue, that theDirector of Golf at the Country
Club is Brennan Walsh and he's,you know, tied for the best in
the business.
Director of Golf at Harvard isFred Schoenacker, and he's an
unbelievable mentor, and youknow.
(08:39):
So I'm just, I'm incrediblylucky.
So, yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
That's kind of wild man, I mean.
I always tell people I thinkgolf is this incredible gateway
for young people.
And the reason I say that isbecause I look at like my
background and where I come fromand definitely had it better
than most, and I'm not trying topaint any negative pictures,
but I definitely was exposed tothings through golf that I
(09:04):
wouldn't have otherwise beenexposed to and I really do not
believe that I would be assuccessful or feel the way I
feel about myself if it wasn'tfor golf in my life.
So I just think that it'sinteresting to hear, like you
know, growing up not necessarilyat San Francisco Golf Club and
I understand what you mean, I'veworked at private clubs.
You're not a member.
(09:24):
You get to kind of like see ita little bit better than most,
but you don't necessarily get tolike play with all the shiny
things.
So I get what you mean.
But at the same time you'restill around those people and,
to your point, right, like thoseare really motivated, highly
successful people.
That's why they're at that club.
And when you start hangingaround those types of people you
(09:44):
start picking up on theirhabits, right.
So you know a lot of people.
They are going to be a littlebetter read than maybe at the
public university or the publicschool.
So I mean you just kind of pickup on these habits and, like
you said, man, you've alwayskind of been in these positions
to where it's like such a greatspot to be.
If you can kind of like maybeslow down the ego a little bit
and go, hey, let me sit back andlearn a little bit, like you're
(10:06):
going to really take in a lot,it's one of the hardest things I
think you know when you'reyounger, which is if you, if you
, you know, have some faith inyourself and you know kind of
what your aptitude and abilitiesare.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
you know it's like I shouldn't have everything right
now, and it does feel that wayand it does take a long time,
kind of, to find your way tofind the right people to be
around to.
You know, for awesome people infront of you to kind of like
let their careers run theircourse and then, you know,
eventually have space for you.
So but, yeah, that that balancebetween patience and also still
(10:41):
working as hard as you can, toknow as much as you can, to be
as good as you can, that's a Ithink that's a hard balance, but
anyway, sometimes we get luckyand sometimes we find that.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Part of mentalization and time management skills that
you have to possess must be offthe charts, because I mean
you're not doing anything.
That's kind of easy, man.
You know what I mean.
Running a golf team isdifficult, like I mean.
I work and consult with several.
You know Division One, divisionTwo programs, and I mean the
commitment on the kids is offthe charts relative to a normal
non-athlete.
(11:13):
You know, student going toschool, and when you and I'm not
trying to say that Harvard doesit better, harvard does it
different or anything like that,but it's just there are
expectations that are differentwhen you go to the Ivy Leagues,
especially when it comes toacademia, and I mean the load
that the young men and womenthat you've coached in the past
(11:33):
have at Harvard is unfathomableand you're expected to lead
these people.
And what most people don'trealize about college coaching
is there's never any time to doanything because of breaks and
because of you know there's acalendar and you know you can
only do so much.
And then you're going fromthere and you're like, okay,
well, let me have a littledowntime.
I just spent all my day withthese future leaders and
(11:54):
achievers.
Now let me go take a littledowntime and you cruise over to
you know the country club andnow you're teaching a bunch of
high end, expecting to beachieving adults and like they
expect results and you're ableto go and deliver an amazing
coaching experience for them andthen do everything else that
you do, man, I mean like that'sno small feat and I think that
that's really overlooked by alot of young coaches.
(12:16):
In terms of the time managementyou need to be successful in
this industry.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Well, as as always, you say things extremely well,
nuanced.
You're able to put yourself inother people's positions
unusually well.
So, that said, it's all that isvery kind to me.
Like I said, I just there's alot of things going for you know
the situations that I'm in thatreally I just feel very
(12:41):
fortunate for.
So, for example, the academicstuff.
You know, balancing academicsand and trying to be the best
players that we can be.
You know, first, if they, ifyou're not eligible, you can't
do it.
But our kids are very much.
You know, not every place isunique and the big hope is each
(13:02):
person finds the place that'sthe best fit for them.
You know the kids that we arevery fortunate to get and that
I'm very fortunate to work on.
One thing I never have to do istell them to study or like do
what you need to do just to beeligible.
They are, it's so who they arethat they would never not work
as hard as they could to get thebest grades that they could in
(13:24):
school, and so you know that'sjust.
That's not an issue.
What that does do is it doesmake it interesting to try to
then balance how do you also beas good as you can be, you know
golf wise.
And again, we're very fortunateto recruit kids that are really
good competitive players beforethey come here.
(13:44):
And I think the biggestchallenge that we have is we get
every once in a while someonewho wants to turn professional
and kind of pursue that andoccasionally that that happens
for sure.
But we, most of the kids, arekind of, you know, going to turn
pro in something else.
And I feel like absolutes areeasier to pursue when you're
(14:05):
like I put everything into beingthe best student I can be, or I
put everything into I'm goingto be a professional golfer.
Those are, you know, not thatit's an easy road in either
direction, but it's easier tosay oh well, all my decisions
are made for me because I'm allabout this.
When they're trying to excel atboth and they have to kind of be
(14:27):
nuanced about, as you said,time management and also kind of
how do I prioritize?
And when you know the messagewe always send is is academics
first and then golf is a closesecond.
That's, we're looking forpeople that have alignment in
their value system in that way,but that's, it's easier said
than done.
It's hard to go to, you know abig D1 college tournament for
(14:48):
our kids with players that anumber of our kids have competed
very well against in the pastand they go there and we've been
spending it's something like,you know, between two thirds and
three quarters the amount oftime on golf that they are, and
yet we want to.
You know our guys want to andour gals want to kick everyone,
you know, but just like theother kids want to kick, our
(15:10):
butt, yeah, so anyway, for themost part, I mean you've had
from that's.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
the thing that is wild to me is like you have had
very high levels of success,kevin, like this this is not the
reason I wanted to have you on.
It's not a normal collegecoaching job.
I mean, as much as yourhumility shines through and you
try to minimize that, you'rejust doing what you do and I
respect that Like it's not anormal job Like we're talking
(15:36):
about.
You know golf in school, thesekids also were.
You know college aged right andwant to have social life too.
So we got to fit that in thereand the thing is is to your
point.
It's very difficult to do andyour, your kids that you're
working with, are not only doingthat, but they're also having
success in both, in both lanes,and I think that's a testament
to leadership always.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Well, thanks, I, you know I, I just I keep coming
back all the time too.
I'm very lucky because my youknow my dad I was around it
early but my dad never forced itI would.
You know, when he came off tourhe was still invited to play in
the Crosby every year.
Being Crosby was a member atschool golf club and stuff, so
(16:19):
we'd go down and watch himcompete in that and like I
thought that was what golf wasfor a long time.
But then when I started, youknow, really it's like mid high
school, when I started trying toget better at the game and then
deciding, I think I want to tryto play in college and then,
like I kept at it my firstcouple of years at UCLA when I
wasn't on the team, and I think,just because I continued to
(16:41):
have such strongly positiveexperiences with the game, then
I I don't know and my dad justkept on doing it at such a high
level over and over again that Ijust have, I have very high
passion for being around it atwhatever the highest level is
that I can be, and so I hopethat that's, you know, one of
(17:03):
the big things.
We go in and out and I'm surethat our kids have felt.
You know more or less of thisfor me over the years, but for
the most part I really likebeing around people.
I really like trying to getpeople to be as good as they can
.
Well, I like them to.
I like to try to help peopleget what they want, whatever
that is.
And if I'm with some highperforming people and I can keep
(17:25):
things in a positive, healthy,controllable, as much as
possible light, you know, that's, that's what I'm lucky, that
that's what I enjoy doing.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
So, yeah, I mean that's, that's just general life
rules, right?
Like you know, you know you canhave an amazing impact on so
many people just by like sayingtheir name to them.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
It's kind of one of the oldest tricks in the book.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Right, like I, you know, stop wherever I stop in
the morning and get like acoffee or something.
And it's like you know, theygot pretty high turnover because
it's a stressful, crappy joband like nobody wants to do that
.
And it's like I swear to you,man, sometimes, like I always
look at their name tag and Ialways call them by name and the
looks you get from some peoplejust for like recognizing the
fact that like they're just thehuman being, right, it's, it's
(18:07):
crazy man.
So I don't disagree, but Istill think it's amazing, like
what you guys do.
I mean it's, it's just reallyhigh performing culture.
And that's one of the biggestthings I wanted to talk to you
about is, you know, you've seenit from the playing perspective,
you've seen it from the clubperspective, you've seen it from
the coaching perspective, right, like, and you kind of know,
(18:28):
like there's some like justnon-sartors you've already kind
of alluded to that right, like,I don't have to tell a young man
or woman at Harvard that theyneed to study, like that kind of
.
You know, we don't even bringthat conversation up, they
already know the rules.
But, like, what are some ofthose things you think that
really stick out in these highperforming cultures that maybe
you notice when you go, and youdon't have to.
I'm not asking you to bashanywhere, sure, sure, and then
(18:52):
you can just stand out at otherfacilities.
You know, like man, I don't.
I don't know how this is goingto work without having this
thing in place.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yeah, yeah, no.
So again, my mentors that I'vehad, and you know, between my
dad and my uncle, and then RickMartino, who was the director of
instruction for the PGA ofAmerica when I worked for him
for a year and a half, comingfrom Oakmont he was coming from
Oakmont and then Brennan Walshand then Fred Schoeniger.
You know, at all these places Ithese are super high performing
(19:21):
individuals and they care aboutpeople and you know it's both
as simple or as complex as youwant to make that, but you know
I continually Not have to remindmyself because it is somewhat
who I am.
I do like people and I careabout people.
A lot of times people say, youknow I'm too nice or what it is,
(19:43):
but that's balanced with, youknow, really badly wanting to do
well.
Also, because I think if youknow, if I'm only nice and I
don't try to help people and wedon't and we aren't successful,
any of the stuff that we'retrying to convey to them Starts
to ring hollow and it doesn'treally, you know, give the
impact.
So, or that's gold.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, that is such gold right there man.
You are absolutely right.
You cannot just soft out of itall the time with people, man,
because yeah, never learned.
That just becomes the norm andit just yeah, right, and it.
I think what you said there,man, and so many people miss,
miss that to where you know, I,I kind of, and I run a facility,
(20:27):
right, so I'm around the peoplethat I work with a lot more
common than most coaches arearound their clients.
You know, maybe for the weeklylesson or whatever, I'm seeing
my players two, three times aweek if they're coming here to
the facility.
So it's really interesting,though, how people are like man,
I can't believe they ever comeback here.
And I'm like why?
And they're like, man, you justripped them a new one like that
(20:49):
.
That didn't seem fun at all,like I wouldn't come back for
that.
And I'm like, yeah, like I getit and and you're right, and
that's why I would never rip youthat way, because if I rip you
that way and you don't have thatwanton, that drive, you're just
gonna fold up and think I'm ajerk and like, think I'm taking
a bad day out on you.
But with my youngsters, likewhen I rip on them, right, they
(21:09):
go out and they figure it outand, and, and most of my kids,
because this is what I recruit,you know they're kids that need
that.
That fires them up and theycome back harder at you and and
what I'm looking for them tocome back right and go hey man,
thanks for giving me thatbecause I needed that, because I
wasn't doing my job.
And when you can get kids tostart thinking that way and
start being able to handle someconstructive criticism, dude, it
(21:31):
changes everything.
Because then when you are nicewith them, they know it's
sincere and they know thatthey're doing well because they
know that you'll tell them whenthey're not.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, that's super well said and you know I, it is
a challenge that I will Run intosometimes with, you know, if we
have limited time to work ongolf and I do think Confidence
is something that I try toprotect at all costs for sure
and then I have to be carefuland right and ride a line,
because if I'm always boostingconfidence, then when are they
(22:01):
learning and when are theygetting anything of value?
So but if I'm, you know, alwaysripping, that doesn't probably
work either.
I think a lot of times our kidseffort is never an issue with
them.
I think, before I started, youknow, college coaching here, if
I had any conception of Harvardit would be oh, it's all just a
bunch of brilliant people andthey, like, don't even have to
work.
That's not, you know, they'rejust, they're gifted and you
(22:24):
know, sir, certainly from anaptitude standpoint they're very
, very high aptitude.
But I would say the thingoverwhelmingly in, you know, 19
or 20 years of working here, isthe effort level is Just sky
high all the time.
So most of the time I neverneed to Correct because, you
know, I don't need to yell atthem like ever, because that
(22:44):
would be if they weren't tryingor if they needed a Different
motivation.
And that's never a problem.
I have to find ways to kind ofconvey a message based on I know
you're trying as hard as youcan, but still we need to be
correct in this way.
And I Read a thing it was justan article about reflections on
Saban this week and one of thethings that one of his you know
(23:07):
coaching staff said about him isso I don't know, I've never met
coach Saban but but talks aboutyou know, if you're not
coaching it Then you can'texpect it.
That really coach, you know,tell them what you want and why
it's a value and stuff like that.
And I do find Sometimes In my,in my lesser good moments, when
(23:27):
I'm more tired and more lesspatient and stuff like that,
there are certain things that Imight consider like base,
foundational things and theymaybe don't do it and I'm like
what are you doing?
You know, in my, in my bad space, I'll get mad at him, at least
to myself, and say why aren'tyou doing that?
And then I think about it moreand say why haven't?
I guess I haven't clearly askedfor that yet.
(23:49):
They don't know why it's avalue, they don't know that
they're doing it or not doing it.
So just tell them and Tell themwhy.
Most of the time our kids, if Itell them why and what's behind
it, the value behind it, they'llget behind it.
If they know why, it's eithergoing to help them or it's going
to help our group.
So I think that's one of theother things that I in my better
space.
It's always like you need tocoach what you believe and what
(24:13):
you think is important and thendon't be surprised if they don't
know it.
Yet I kind of think more andmore.
I think common sense doesn'tthat much exist.
I think you know Everyone'scoming from, it's more global
and you know differentexperiences and stuff like that.
So don't be surprised ifsomeone doesn't know something.
Just explain why it's a value.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
So I think that's gold too.
I mean, I'm gonna take it aslightly different way and I
agree with you right, like as acoach man, you know.
Like, for example, in theweekends you know I'm slamming
coaching all weekend.
It's wild, but, like you know,I'm standing there and it's like
maybe the sixth person that'shot that day or whatever.
And I'm like to your point,like I'm a little tired, I'm a
little cranky, and it's like youknow I see him do something.
(24:55):
And it's like man, like I knowyou know better, you know what I
mean like I know, and you dowant to walk over and like slap
them upside the head and be likewhat, why don't you get this?
But at the same time, man, likethere's been so many times to
where I've walked out there andjust Flipidly made a comment to
somebody like, oh my god, you'venever said that before.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I've ever said you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
And like they.
Just they receive it adifferent way.
So yeah.
I think one of those things thatyou have to remind coaches is
like you just have to keepcoaching what's in front of you.
You know, it's not about whatyou coach before, it's not about
what you're gonna coach sixmonths from now.
Like you just got to show upand coach what's in front of you
.
So one of my big rules that Itry to have is like I have
(25:38):
amazing technology, have thebest technology that there is.
I have it all, whatever youwant.
So like I know that, like if Ishow up and I'm present, that
I'm not gonna get this wrong,like I'm, I'm, I'm just, I'm not
, I'm not gonna be rude, I'm notgonna be disrespectful, I'm not
gonna say anything and put myfoot in my mouth.
If I can just like show up andbe present, this golf experience
(26:01):
is gonna go really well forthis person.
So that's all I got to do, man.
And it's like it's so hard to dothat.
And like the modern aid whenyou're running around and doing
this and doing that.
But, man, it's like it's it'srefreshing to hear somebody else
say that, because it's so true.
Man, like you just really haveto keep.
Like that's the thing aboutbeing a coach man it's.
You're never done being a coach.
(26:22):
You're always coaching untilyou go out in a wooden box.
So you know you just got tokeep doing it.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I love everything you said.
That I think it's right on andit does remind me again I have,
I'm very lucky, I have 11 yearold twin girls and you know
certain things it's like andthey are phenomenal kids and I'm
so lucky and but you know, weneed, as humans, we need
constant attention, we needconstant reminders, we need this
and and if, if we keep on doingthat and can remember that
(26:48):
that's what it takes to kind ofdevelop, help develop a human,
then yeah, then we show up, bepatient, be present, and then a
lot of good things will happenover time.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, I mean it's wow , right, I mean I, I find it
hilarious, man, it's.
You know, we're reallyfortunate that.
I really think, like you're anagent of calm, you know, I mean
that's that's what I would referto you as and that's kind of
like what I, the college coachesI advise, like that's what I
always call them.
I call them agents of calmBecause if you kind of think
(27:19):
about it, man, like, in certainsituations, you know, the coach
tends to be at the facility awhole lot, right, like that's
kind of like their little nestand it's like these birdies are
just flying in all day and likedude, everything in their life
is crazy.
You know what I mean.
Like you know, and we're nottalking about men and women of
Harvard Maybe have it a littlemore put together we're talking
(27:42):
about maybe this kid's making atwo, five GPA and hanging on by
a threat.
So I mean you're, you'reconstantly the one place that
these people are going.
That's consistent.
And like the, the trick for acollege coach, I think, is you
can kind of be a little over thetop, negative, you can be a
little over the top, you know,positive, but you better be
(28:02):
consistent with it, right, yeah,because, like, if you're not
creating that sense of calm inthat nest, then these kids
aren't gonna keep gravitatingtowards you and then you're
gonna have a real hard timegetting all your hands to want
to fly in one direction.
That's awesome.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
And a great reminder, because it's true, they take so
many cues from us.
You know, either on purpose ornot, and Totally so, if we're,
if we're ramped up and stufflike that, about you know a shot
didn't go well or a rounddidn't go Well, then they, you
know they're justified and alsofeeling that way too, because
that's what they saw modeled.
(28:37):
So I love your calm in themiddle of the storm An analogy,
I think that's.
That's that's right.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
It's crazy, like I just did another podcast the
other day.
I was invited on and they askedme they're like what's the one
thing that you do now that youwish you would have been doing,
like when you started coaching,right like what's, what's the
big thing?
And I really think they thoughtI was gonna say something about
ground reaction forces orsomething like that and kind of
get they wanted.
But actually I gave him myhonest answer, which is neuro
(29:08):
peak, pro Right and teachingkids how to breathe.
And I think it's been, without adoubt, the single Number one
thing that if you improve yourbreathing, you improve
performance Is a lot of things.
And it's like, once again, youknow, do we want these kids to
perform Well?
Of course we do.
(29:28):
We want these kids to performbetter than anybody else.
Like, we're invested in this,we've spent money, we've got
time, we've got feelings, we'vegot all these things invested in
these kids.
We want them to do so well andwe push them so hard and I'm not
saying you do per se, but I'mjust saying in general society
pushes them so hard and thenit's like, oh, we're over
(29:49):
simulated, we have absolutely noroom left to like, take
anything on, and that first shotthat goes crooked out there.
Man, it's like the world cavesin on their skull because they
cannot internally regulate.
So in my mind.
I mean, that's just what it'sall about in life is being able
to Absorb what's coming at youand make good decisions and
(30:10):
hopefully not have the samething keep happening.
So you know, breathing, I think, is kind of important and when
I, when I talk to these, theseteams, man, and you see the
teams that are having success,it's just funny to me how much
it's less about the X's and O'sat this level, kevin, and way
more about the, the human factor, if you will.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
So kind of two quick thoughts about that one that
just I'm again from the SanFrancisco Bay Area, so I'm a
Golden State Warriors fan andand a Celtics fan, but Totally
so, but but awesome in all ways.
And Steve Kerr, I'm a big fanand someone, yeah, kind of sent
(30:53):
a quick, a quick hit that he did.
And he was talking about kindof what you know what he
experienced when he startedcoaching and went to go see a
lot of different coaches, one ofthem, which was Pete Carroll,
and Was in a camp with him andlike the end of the second day
called him into his office.
So he and Pete Carroll is likewhat are you gonna coach?
And he's like, well, like whatdo you mean?
What offense am I gonna rent?
And Carol said something likeyou know, no, no, no, that
(31:14):
doesn't even matter, it's likewhat are you gonna coach?
And and Kerr said I didn't knowwhat he meant, but eventually
it got to like you know yourvalue system, what do you truly
believe in?
And that will set Kind of thetone for what the players are
going to experience day in andday out, and if we kind of know
ourselves and know what thatstuff is and then try to model
(31:35):
it, then I think you know that'sthat's going to be super
helpful.
And I love a couple that youknow.
One of them was competitivenessbut another one was empathy and
another one was joy.
And you know I I don't knowI've gotten that from that team
and watching that for many yearsand it's pretty fun to watch.
But the other thing that mademe think is that the thing that
made me think in the breathing,in the space, to take what comes
(31:59):
at you and kind of thing, I hada player at the club asked me
to read a book, to vet it, thatjust came out like not that long
ago, but it's by Dr RaymondPryor and it's called Golf
Beneath the Surface.
Maybe you've read it or not,but I really like it.
I think it brings a lot ofdifferent things together that I
(32:19):
think you know We've heard, orheard snippets of, for for a
long, long time, but it kind of,yeah, brings them in under one
cover and I'd I'd recommend itto a lot of people.
I think it's pretty fantastic.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
So right there, you have to look that hard.
So this is the mindful athletewith George Mumford Awesome and
like this is.
This goes back to what we'retalking to me, right, this is
like hot topic, right, like yougo and look for mindfulness and
any of that, like I mean, youcan't get more like on topic and
on brand if you try.
(32:54):
But when you read this book,george Mumford was brought in to
work with the bowls Duringtheir run we're going back to
the 80s, brother, and like thatonce again.
Like this breathing, thismindfulness, this, you know,
getting to a creative space towhere you can slow down the
stress and kind of see playsunfolding before they do.
(33:15):
This all goes back to likebreathing and it's not something
that's new, like I, I know.
Like we bring up, I sayneuropeak problem, they're like
oh, that's, you know, that's allwitch doctor stuff.
And like it's all new.
No, it's not new, it's just,once again it's taking
technology Right and applying itto concept that maybe is very
(33:35):
old and then using thattechnology to show somebody how
to apply that Concepts.
Like that's that's all it istraining for right.
So I think that you know there'sa lot of those things that go
into these high performingcultures that have been around
forever.
But I think the great thingabout social media is like guys
like you know, you and me couldhave conversations and we can
(33:56):
compare notes now and it's likeI think a lot of you know Our
best secrets are really the, thebasic stuff that just kind of
goes into being well-rounded andbeing able to perform at a High
level.
You know, obviously recovery isa big one, you know.
I, I, I cannot stress enoughand I'll say it to you, and I
don't I'm not sure if you guysdo this or not, but you know,
(34:16):
for college athletes, I thinkthe single best thing you can do
with them is a whoop strap, andI don't think it'd have to be
an athlete, I think, just foryoung people in general, and I'm
not saying that like Inecessarily think that the whoop
strap is the most accurate orany of that stuff, but what it
is is it's consistent ontoitself and now at least that
person can understand what'sgoing on with them.
And like when these youngpeople start seeing like how
(34:39):
much this sleep really screwsthem up man Like they kind of
course correct themselves.
I.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Isn't that great.
Yeah, god, I couldn't agreemore.
I think it's fantastic, and youdon't have to have it on for
that long before you start toknow your way of doing things
and knowing what you're doing.
I don't have one on now in fulldisclosure.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
I mean, I know somebody's gonna get on the
internet and kill me.
I don't have mine on right nowI haven't worn it in about a
month but I know my numbers arepretty much set, like I know
exactly what I have to do andthat if I'm not in bed by 10, I
can't get my sleep score to 70.
And I need my sleep score to beat 70.
So my recovery is at 92 or 93.
So I mean, like just knowingthat stuff, man, if I can get my
(35:21):
recovery in the green and Ishow up to play golf, man, I'm
going to play better, or atleast feel better playing at a
92 than I am a 65.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
And who knew, alcohol didn't make you sleep better?
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Wow, it's weird, right, Like I think that's why
whoop has such a hard time withadults, because they just hate
seeing how much that beer reallyhurts.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
I love it.
I love it.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
It's crazy though, man, but I mean I really think
you know, I've spent less andless time kind of traveling and
doing education, like taking ineducation.
I've been doing more educationmyself, but the education I am
taking in, man, I keep findingmyself like these biohacking,
like conventions, Because Ireally once again to kind of
(36:04):
drive this home.
You know I'm talking to a guythat's achieving a lot at a
really premier program that hasreally high standards.
But, once again, what are wetalking?
We're not talking like swingplane and all that.
I mean I really think it's moreabout the human element as you
go up in levels.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Incredible.
Yeah, I agree, and I again themore I know, the more whoops
here, there you go.
Yeah, the more.
I know the more I agree withwhat you just said.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, I mean I can't imagine like you, can you
imagine going back to yourplaying days, like with the
information that you have now?
Like it's wild, isn't it?
Like I mean, I'm sure you thinkthat way, just like I think
that way right.
Like if we had force plates andtrack man and like actually
understood, like that we werebreathing like idiots because we
were 18, and you know what I'msaying.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Like man, what's so good?
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Crazy.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
I know.
So I know we do the best we canwith what the available info is
and we know a lot now, which isit is really fun.
We feel I feel very lucky to beteaching and coaching at this
time.
It's awesome.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Your favorite.
I'm curious you get to wear alot of different hats which I'm
jealous of because I get forcedand just a couple of them but,
and you get to see the sun,which I never do, as you can
tell.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
That's why you look way better than I do.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
My curiosity is like where's your happy place
teaching?
Like if you had to go and teachtoday.
Ok, you can be at Harvard withthe men and women, or just the
men.
You can be at Brookline.
You can be wherever you want tobe, like where's your happy
place?
Coaching Like if you had togive one golf lesson the rest of
your life.
What are you coaching and whereare you coaching at?
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah, so yeah, my answer is going to be a hedge,
of course, because it really isthat I like all of the different
things that I get to do,because they're different.
The commonality is that Igenerally get to spend time with
people that are choosing tospend time with me.
Nobody's forced to, it's alllike by choice, so they're kind
(38:09):
of bored.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
They're even paying sometimes, isn't that crazy?
They even pay you a little bit,like that's what you want to do
.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Well said, but so they're relatively open, they're
relatively like, happy towhatever, but I love all of it.
So at the club I'm very luckythat we have driving range and
we have practice putting greatin a short game area.
But there's also a third nine,the primrose nine, where I love
being able to get out on thegolf course and actually take
(38:37):
things, see what's presentingwhen they're out there, letting
them talk me through things,observing what they're doing.
That might be different thanwhat's on the range, deciding
whether we just stay out therelonger or whether we take what
we learned out there and then goto a place that's a little bit
more efficient and do that backin the practice area.
But that's another thing that Ido feel very lucky about.
(38:59):
The college coaching is, whichis instead of an hour, half hour
, 15 minutes, where I get tospend with someone, usually in a
practice area.
In the college coaching I getto watch them do all of it.
I watch them practice, I watchthem play for fun, I watch them
play for qualifying, I watchthem compete and I get to also
(39:20):
cross-reference all those thingsand say, well, wish things
really are showing up whenthey're under pressure or
they're playing in a competitiveround and then work my way back
to all those other areas whichmight be the best place to help
them work on those things, toget them ready to go back out
and do it again.
So I love the variety and Imarvel every year that both the
(39:42):
club and the school let me doboth of those and that my wife
and my family also let me dothose things, because I really
like all of them.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
That's awesome man.
And I think one thing if you'restill listening to this podcast
to this point, you may kind ofget a feeling that Kevin has to
be fake, that this can't be real, he can't be this happy, he
can't be this joyful.
But I can assure you, everytime I've ever talked to him,
he's this way and I honestly tryto live up to that standard
(40:13):
that Kevin presents, because Ifeel the same way Kevin does.
We have the greatest jobs inthe world.
We do them at completelydifferent places.
He could tell me a laundry listof reasons why he's right and I
could tell him a laundry listof reasons why I'm right.
But at the same time, we bothlegitimately feel that we have
the best jobs in the worldbecause I believe I do and he
believes he does.
So we're very fortunate becausewe both know what we enjoy doing
(40:37):
and that's obviously helpingothers right, and there's a lot
of different ways that you canhelp people, and I think one of
the things that I enjoy the mostabout golf is that it is so
closely related to life.
There's a lot of life lessonsout there and I love golf.
It's very challenging andcomplex and I love the fact that
I can go out there and playwith somebody that knows
(40:58):
technically a third of what Iknow, and he goes out there and
beats me, and that reallydoesn't sit well with me, but it
happens and that's just the wayit goes.
Man, it's one of those games towhere you never can stop
learning, because you're alwaysgoing to find something new.
And it's one of those gameswhere you can never stop
improving because the coursesjust keep getting harder and
harder, so you kind of have tostay at it.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
That's funny.
I don't know, Early on Iprobably had a preference for
not stating that stuff asovertly, Just because I don't
know it sounded wrong, maybe howI was growing up or whatever to
golf as metaphor for life andstuff.
But it's totally true and themore I go, maybe it's more age
(41:43):
appropriate now that I can saythings like that a little bit or
sneak it in there a little bit.
But it's true.
All the things that you saidit's hard, it's fun, it's you
never, you certainly nevermaster it, that's for sure.
I don't know if you get tocompete some, but I definitely,
again, with my dad as my model.
My dad's still working on hisgame and still competing and
(42:06):
loves it.
And, luckily, when I can do it,I do it just because I think
it's fun.
And I think when I stoppedplaying, that was the first
thing I wrote down, which isdon't forget what it's like to
be a player, Because I can siton the other side of that and
tell people what to do or try tocoach them up the right way and
stuff.
But trying to continuallyrelate to what that's like, I
(42:30):
think is really really important, at least for me.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Let me throw this one at you.
You might like this.
I made a decision late lastyear.
I was over in London with someof my good mates that are new
friends of mine over there, andthey were nice enough to take me
out and play some golf and Ireally fell in love with golf,
(42:53):
again thanks to a guy by thename of James Day.
And James has a golf clubcollection that would make you
blush and I mean he's got allthe cool.
It's nothing, that's like crap,it's all like really cool stuff
like from back when we wereyounger and whatnot.
So I got to play with some oldpubs that are really cool golf
course called the Addington, andwe had a real blast.
(43:16):
But I kind of I had a weirdexperience we played.
The weather wasn't great, itrained.
I didn't have golf shoes, I wasin tennis shoes and my feet
were soaked.
And like I'm one of those superprepared guys, like I've got
the full Galvin green rain.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Like and like.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
I'm so out of my element here and I should be
miserable, I should just befuming.
I'm not playing overly well,like nothing's going right.
But I just had this amazingexperience because we were
playing golf.
It didn't matter like what theshop did, like we were just
playing golf, man, and like Iwas like there's something there
because I've been a miserablegolfer for a long time and I'm
(43:51):
just no fun to play golf with.
I know that.
And it's not because I likethrow a temper or anything, it's
just I'm pretty quiet because,honestly, I'm just kind of like
frustrated and disappointed inmyself.
Sure, no, I just can't makemyself do it all the time.
So, like I coach golf for aliving, and I coach golf at a
high level for a living.
So in my world it's all aboutperfects and like trying to make
(44:13):
everything right and that itminimized this, and so you're
going to love this.
But I'm going vintage man.
So I've got a bunch of old golfclubs on the way and I have a
new found friend named ToddDempsey who makes modern
persimmon woods and we got someballadas and we're going to
(44:34):
start like playing golf again,man, because that's where I
think this industry is losing it, man, because it's all decimal
points and X's and O's, and likegraphs and like I don't know
about you, man, but most peopleI think got into golf did not
have to learn graphs.
So like I'm just trying to getback to having fun, man, and
like play golf for what it is,which is, I think, a social game
(44:56):
, and I think that that's whywe're happy, man, because we're
social and, you know, we get toshare what we're passionate
about with a lot of other people.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Dude, that's badass.
Like yeah I, I, I'd like Todd.
He was a couple of years aheadof me at Arizona State and he
wouldn't know who.
I was, but I know what he doesand I just I can't believe it.
What he did in in Q-School lastyear, right Playing with those,
I don't, even I don't.
It's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
I have a sickness.
I got deliveries today.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
That's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Yeah, man, it's going to be great.
But I mean that's, you know, Ithink I think back to San
Francisco Golf Club, and I don'tI've never been there, I've
never stepped on the property,but I have a vision in my head,
right, and it's black and whiteand it's grainy and it's it's
old man, and it's like I thinkback to that and I just nobody
knew anything, like peopledidn't even know the world was
round, right.
(45:52):
Like I mean like people knewnothing and people were out
there still perplexed by thesame problems that we're
perplexed by, and like to me,like that's what golf is about
and I get it, man, like I've gota QI 10 with a graphite, I got
all the cool stuff too.
But like there's also likeanother way to enjoy golf, man,
(46:13):
and I think what we've talkedabout today is just about every
way to enjoy golf except likehow to swing a golf club.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
Awesome.
And that's a sort, that's asource of enjoyment too.
You know you, you find in itwhat, what's good for you, and
then do that as much as you canwhenever you have time to do it.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
So but you're, we're all just like addicts at the end
, right, Like we're all justlike degenerates and can't get
enough.
I mean that's.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
That's basically what it boils down to my wife would
absolutely agree with that.
I'll I'll finish teaching aftera full day and then I'll come
home and I'll eat something andeither you know if a major's on,
I'll start watching that, orafter I spend time with the
girls and they go to bed, thenI'll like pick up a pattern and
start working on it.
What are you doing?
(46:59):
I don't know.
It's a different thing when I'mtrying to do it versus other
people, and all of them are fun.
All of them are great.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
So yeah, exactly so I thought.
Last thing, here you brought upsomething really interesting.
You brought up Nick Saban, andI'm a huge Nick Saban fan.
I was freaking heartbroken whenhe retired and I mean, I get it
, man, like the guy is way aheadof the curve and he understands
things much better, and hedefinitely understood that the
nil thing was a new thing thathe wasn't going to figure out in
(47:29):
his time, that he had left.
But you know, I think if youlook at, if you look at Nick
Saban and you look at BillBelichick, one thing that really
stands out to me is, likecoaches like and I'm including
us in this conversation coacheslike always demand discipline.
We always demand it Like yougot to be disciplined, you got
to do the right thing when thattime comes, like you got to
perform.
Like we expect all thisdiscipline, and the one thing
(47:52):
that coaches generally do notexhibit is discipline.
Right Like.
You think to a lot of collegecoaches on the sidelines, man,
like, think about the way thatthey're leading their team, like
they're going nuts, they'rebrats, they're throwing things,
they're cussing, they're kicking, they're screaming, right Like.
I really think, though, when youwatch Saban, unless it was just
like a really bad call and heonly did it every now and then
(48:15):
like pretty common collected,bill Belichick, pretty common
collected.
And when we're talking aboutlike ultra high performing, you
know teams or communities orwhatever you want to call them,
right, like you're talking abouttwo of the best to do it in
their sports and leadership,remain calm.
And one thing that I'll sayabout you is that I think you
(48:36):
have a very calming presence,right, and it's like I think
that when you talk about likewhat do high performing places
things do, it is create calm,right.
It's manage the noise, it'scontrol the controllables, it's
really putting a plan together,right, but I think that that, at
the end of the day, is reallywhat it takes to be a high
performing kind of person andfacility and to lead people to
(48:59):
the high performance.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
I think it was in a podcast with maybe with Gio
Valiente, that he was talkingabout kind of have your stuff
together, because if you'reasking other people to do it and
you don't do it, it's not goingto ring true as much.
So I hope I'm attributing thatcorrectly.
But I liked that.
When I heard that and Idefinitely try to do that and I
(49:25):
also going to UCLA, my wholefamily except for me kind of
went to.
My mom, went to Cal, buteveryone else went to USC
Southern Cal and so I, when Iwent to UCLA, I became I was
disowned from the family, notreally.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
I figured.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
But one of the great gifts that I got when I went
there which is unfortunately itwasn't on my radar before I went
there but after was John Wooden, and I've read a lot and so has
everyone else that's coachedand stuff and he just said I
kind of I'm not specialized,just a guy who tried to live up
to his beliefs as well aspossible, but but he was also
(50:05):
all about preparation and doingeverything to prepare his team
so that once you get to thegames there's not a lot of
yelling and that kind of stuffthat needs to be done.
Someone told me I met aPatriots player that played on
the Super World team where theyplayed against the Falcons and
they were down big at halftime.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
And it was 23 or something.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
So, and you know they said I don't know, I'm speaking
out of school, but he saidsomething like you know, what
Belgics said to the team athalftime was not this crazy
fiery speech and pump up orwhatever.
He said something like if youplay better, you can win.
So I don't know, I mean thefire motivation right.
There's a time and placesometimes, but there's also a
(50:50):
time and place, as you've beensaying really well, which is to
stay calm and let people know.
You know we'll make adjustments, but you can do this if we've
prepared correctly.
You know, have faith inyourself and believe in yourself
and then go out and operate thepractice has to be harder than
the competition or you'll neverhave success.
Speaker 1 (51:10):
Yeah, and you know, one thing that I always remember
is a friend of mine told methat he once noticed Brooks
Kepke was like looking at acalendar and like there were
dates circled.
And like he was like, what areyou looking at?
And he's like, oh, just likelooking at my off days, he's
like, are those the days circled?
And he's like, yeah, and thoseare like tournament days.
And like Brooks looks attournament days as off days
(51:33):
because like he worked out somuch harder and everything else
during the week to get ready forthat, but like by the time he
gets, that's the easy part, healready did the work.
Speaker 2 (51:42):
And I mean I thought we need to practice like that.
That's like he gets nodged.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
I'll tell you what man, that dude.
I've seen him practice and likehe doesn't need to practice
because one of his practicesessions would last the average
dude about three years.
Like I mean, it's pretty, hegets the work, man.
But you know, I think that onceagain, like he, he doesn't look
at it the nerdy way, right,he's not going well.
Let me chalk it up with youguys, x's and O's.
(52:07):
He's going like hey, if I getmy body right, my mind right,
I'm going to come out here andbeat the math.
And that's just kind of how hesees the world right.
And I think you have to have alittle bit of that warrior
spirit.
But once again, to use thegreat John Wooden, you know, if
you're not prepared, man, itdoesn't matter how much bravado
you got, you don't have what youneed.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Yeah, yeah, oh man, happy for Brooks that he you
know he showed it again lastyear and then he can do it now
as long as he wants to.
So it's pretty impressive.
Speaker 1 (52:38):
I'm not the nathayer.
I think that you know there's alot of people in the golf
industry that have hurt feelingsover what's been going on and,
honestly, anytime the businesscomes to the forefront, people
kind of get, you know, lessinterested because it's not raw,
raw and about feelings anymore.
But I think golf's in a greatplace.
I think the performance you'reseeing at the signature event is
unbelievable.
I mean, you got to go out thereand you got to shoot 30 under
(53:01):
man and these aren't easy setupsand what you're seeing
performance wise, prettyincredible.
But, with that said, you are abusy man and I do not want to
keep you anymore.
And, dude, I really appreciateyou coming on.
This has been fun.
Speaker 2 (53:13):
This is as always.
I don't get much of it, but Ienjoy my time with you very much
.
Thanks for your questions,thanks for everything you do.
Thanks for focusing.
Like you said, I do thinkgolf's in a really good place.
For sure, I know the otherstuff will die down at some
point not that far in the futureand we'll just get back to
focusing on the amazing thingsthat are going on.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
So well, that's for sure.
And Kevin is always out theredoing stuff If you're interested
in kind of keeping an eye onhim.
I don't think he does very muchon social media, if anything,
but you can kind of payattention to the men's Harvard
team, see how they're playing,see where they're going to be at
.
One thing real quick before wego I have a couple of kids that
play at Villanova, and one thingthat we've always talked about
(53:58):
is the team at Harvard man.
They are professional andthey're a good group of men, and
the way that they go aboutrepresenting the game is second
to none.
So once again, thank you toKevin for leading them and
helping them become the bestthey can be, and it's been a
real treat because it's veryrare that you get to talk to
people who have lived a trulyincredible life and have really
(54:19):
been around some great people,and to share some of that wisdom
has been great for all of us.
So thanks so much for tuning in.
Please make sure to subscribeand share this with anybody that
you think would be interested.
So thanks again to Kevin anduntil next time, keep grinding.
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