Exploring the Modern Game of Golf: Technology, Techniques, and Transformation with Ryan Holley

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello and welcome to the Measure Golf Podcast.
This is the very first episodeformerly the Force Plate Guy
podcast and the reason for therebrand is we are trying to move
past the world of talkingsolely about ground reaction
forces, force plates and allthat fun stuff, and we want to
continue to take a deeper diveinto the golf swing, golf

(00:31):
performance and how we get thereand connect the two.
So, with that being said,measure Golf kind of serves that
purpose in terms of being moreholistic in its approach to golf
performance.
So that's why you're seeing aslight change in name, with it
going from the Force Plate Guyto the Measure Golf Podcast.
And in our inaugural episode weare very, very lucky because we

(00:54):
have a very special guest.
His name is Ryan Holly and he,I think, is a Canadian version
of myself.
I think that somehow I wasactually probably born in Canada
and somehow we were separatedat the hospital, but we have
found one another and he isdefinitely a force plate
extraordinaire.
I would go as far as to callhim a force plate guy as well.

(01:17):
He definitely has hadtremendous success helping
people identify, you know,solutions to their problems by
being able to help themunderstand how their body is
moving and how forces andtorques are being exchanged
between the body and the ground.
So the really cool thing aboutRyan and one of the biggest
reasons I wanted to have him onis because not only has he had

(01:39):
amazing success, but he alsoshares a very similar journey to
myself in terms of why hebelieves in ground reaction
forces and teaching from thatperspective, and also where he's
been able to really find someapplication and help some of the
best players in the world,including Nick Taylor, tony
Thiena, jj Spahn and a fewothers.

(01:59):
And if all that isn'tinteresting enough, it turns out
he's also a mega Pearl Jam fan,as am I, so I any friend of
Eddie is a friend of mine, soI'm always happy to maybe, you
know digress a little into aPearl Jam tangent at some point
in the podcast if it reallybreaks down.
So, without further ado, let'sgo ahead and welcome our good

(02:21):
friend, mr Nick Holly.
What's going on?

Speaker 2 (02:23):
my man.
Hey, good man, what's, what'shappening?
Good to be on and yeah, good tobe on and talk it up a little
bit.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
Nick Holly.
You're not Nick Holly, you'reRyan Holly.
Sorry about that.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
I'll go buy anything, man, that's all right.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
I've only got half the Starbucks in me so far.
Sorry, man.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
No worries, no worries.
Yeah, thanks for having me on.
I'm excited, I'm happy for youfor the rebrand and looking
forward to hearing kind of someof your future guests and see
what's going on.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, man, it's really exciting times, you know,
it's been a great year.
You know, and if we're going tokind of look back at the year,
you know, I think we would beremiss to not talk about
probably one of the most popularstories on the PGA tour this
year.
I think something happened upin Canada.
What was that?
You know Canada, so we asAmericans aren't always paying

(03:12):
attention.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Man to steal the next line.
I think I just blacked out, I'mnot quite sure.
You know it was an amazingstory up here, for sure you know
, having Nick win the NationalOpen for the first time in 69
years.
And you know I talked to somefolks down at the US Open the
following week and you knowchatting to some folks from the
Canadian golf scene down there.

(03:34):
We all agreed it was like itwas awesome to watch him win,
like it was amazing.
It was great for him, great forthe country, but the style and
the way that he won that golftournament?
I don't remember a better finish.
I can't remember a betterfinish.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yeah, you won that golf, I mean your championship
for sure.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
And I mean it was just.
I mean I've seen that highlightI don't know a couple of
hundred times by now, probablyup here, and it never fails to
bring a smile to my face, right.
And I mean, like you know,obviously, like I don't do
putting or anything with Nick,but just to you know, just to
have that small involvement inthat in that moment, I mean it's
something that for my career Ieven, like I'll always remember,
it's definitely the highlightfor me.

(04:12):
You know, watching, watchingthat puck go in, which, funny
enough, I did in a parking lotconstruction, parking lot in
Edmonton, on my phone.
I happened to be at a reallynice private club in Edmonton
for a couple of days and I waswrapping up my day as Nick was
finishing packing up all mygears, tommy's coming down the

(04:32):
stretch, and it was the firstday that this clubhouse, new
clubhouse, had been opened atthis golf course.
So they had been done this liketwo year reno project and they
had just started serving food.
That morning that I was therethey had no TVs in the building.
So I was like, okay, I got togo find a bar or restaurant or
something and I get out onto theroad and the playoff is
starting, so I just pull into aconstruction zone thinking it's

(04:54):
going to be like a one wholeplayoff.
Well, four holes later and I'mstill there watching on my phone
and it was.
It was awesome.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
It was awesome, did you?
Did you kind of sit thereawestruck and watch, or did you
did you kind of like lose it alittle bit, like what?
What was the emotions likehaving to sit there and watch it
on your phone?
It was like what we throughsitting in your car watching
this four hole playoff because Igot to like I would be going
nuts.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, man, it was.
It was nerve wracking for sure.
I put the phone on, do notdisturb.
I think I texted about twopeople back during that, during
that 45 minute window orwhatever.
It was Nerve wracking, I mean.
I just reacted, I mean blackedout, basically, but like my hat
came off and threw it across thecar and it was.
It was awesome.
But to be 100% honest, I was waymore nervous for him when he

(05:41):
was coming down the stretch ofthe waste management open back
in early February, like on SuperBowl Sunday, because it was
earlier on in our relationshipand I wasn't as sure that he had
what I wanted him to have athis knockoff tournament.
So I was a lot more nervousthere.
I knew that he was going to dohis job, quote unquote coming

(06:03):
down the stretch of the open.
I knew he was fine.
I knew he knew what I wantedhim to do.
I knew he was playing reallygood golf.
We had had a session the Fridaybefore he left for Toronto in
which we talked about that hewas ready to win that he.
His golf swing was as good asit's ever been.
It was as repeatable as it'sever been.
His movement pattern was spoton to what I wanted it to be and

(06:27):
we knew that something good wascoming.
And he shot 75 on the Thursday.
And you know we had a textconversation that night and I
was like you know, throw like,but you know what the hell?
And he basically said he's like, listen, I made a couple of
messes.
He's like if a couple of patsgo in, we're going to be in good
shape.
And sure enough, he goes like21 under par over his next, like

(06:48):
54 holds or something like that, sets a course record and wins
the open.
But yeah, it was, it was, itwas super fun.
I mean, I know that you know,working with good players,
oftentimes we're going to feelstressed that they maybe don't.
You know, I think, having beinga little bit closer to that
level of golf now, I appreciatehow good those guys are way more

(07:09):
because they are human, becausethey are human beings.
They battle trauma like therest of us, right?
Like you know, for me I'm notthe best driver of the golf ball
, not because my technical skillset is bad, but because I'm, I
don't play golf.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
I play like once.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
I play like once a week and man like yeah, like up
in my brain is like not, notworth it.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
So one of the one of the guests I got coming up for
the podcast is Dr Allison Kurt,and that's exactly what she
handled right at the DMD yardtraining.
And it's helping people withthese small keys that they don't
really realize, that they'rekind of wrapping around
themselves when they play a golf.
And you know it is, man, it'sstressful and and the thing that
I don't think a lot of peoplerealize is, you know, there were

(07:51):
periods of time where the guyin the red shirt was walking
around golf courses and peoplewere telling him he was a bum.
They used to call the galleryyou should call a tiger a bum.
Like, hey, man, you didn't winthis last week.
Like you suck, like what'swrong with you, why aren't you
winning?
Like the expectation for theseguys is just it, nobody can

(08:12):
achieve enough.
Because you know sports media inthe 24 hour news cycle, man,
like they're constantly wantingto anoint the next jack, the
next tiger, and you know theybuild these guys up, man, and we
all know it's the same thingthat just happened with Colorado
, right, we build these guys tothe hill and then we love to
tear it down the minute thatthey can't live up to it and

(08:33):
it's.
We're constantly moving thegolf.
And if you look at the end ofthe PGA Tour season right since
we're still talking about kindof this great year that we just
witnessed I mean if you look atthe level of performance, I mean
, dude, you could choose 63 andlose, as Xander Shoffley.
I mean that's pretty wild man.
You go to the Tour ChampionshipSunday 63 and don't walk away

(08:57):
with a trophy.
Like what level are these guysat, man?
I mean it's absurd.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
Right, right For sure .
I mean like Hoplin shooting 28at the on the back of these,
like I mean like it's insane, Ireally it's absolutely crazy.
But that's how good these guysare getting.
Not only is the techniquegetting better, which I think is
I think I can say that as ablanket statement we don't have
as many homemade moves on PGATour driving ranges as we used

(09:22):
to, and if they are homemademoves, players really understand
, whether that you call themmatchups or complimentary moves
or whatever whatever you want tocall them.
They understand how their bodymoves in space.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
Yeah, I want to ask you a question Because I think
you know this, like I know thisright you get out there on a
tour range, right, and let's sayyou're working with somebody
and maybe the relationship'skind of new and maybe you're
kind of new to their team andenvironment.
Or let's say that you knowthey're playing well and you've

(09:55):
been with them for a littlewhile.
Like it's amazing how manyphone numbers I don't recognize
I get text messages from thatday or that night.
You get the same thing outthere.
I mean I'm sure after Nick Ibet you got all like they're
very curious and I don't thinkthat they get enough credit for
being willing to really selfevaluate and critique themselves

(10:16):
and try to turn over everystone to find that you know
tenth of a stroke that they'remissing.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
For sure.
I mean, I get it on a smallerlevel because I have not been on
a pj tour range.
Because of what I do, it isdone in a not allowed to style
setting but in a vacuum.
If I have to be on a tour site,I'm not sure that player is
ready to play that week,typically speaking, because I'm

(10:44):
not a coach, right.
So you know you'll see coacheslike Joe Mayo over and in Europe
this weekend for the Ryder Cup.
Joe's a really smart guy,Obviously working with Holland
in some beautiful ways, and he'sthere to check up and make sure
and whatnot.
Because I don't do that stuff,I don't really hang out on
Ranges.
However, the best marketing youknow is how well your players

(11:07):
play.
Absolutely so yeah likedefinitely phone calls and text
messages from some really goodplayers after the fact.
I mean, I'm blessed in.
So in the lower mainland of BCI would say I've worked with 80%
of the plus handy likecompetitive plus handicap
players in the lower mainlandand that's just simply because

(11:30):
you know, I get a plus four orplus five who win some golf
tournaments and people are likeman, that dude's smashing it
further or he's hitting itbetter than I've ever seen him.
What's he doing?

Speaker 1 (11:38):
Who's talking about that.
That being said, yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, I think that's well said,right, and you know, I think
that the reason that obviouslyyou have an established way of
doing things and have been atthis a long time.
But you know, I think one ofthe other things that really
draws better players to both youand me is the fact that we do

(12:00):
have the force plate technologyright and I think a lot of
people who are better players,when you go and look at them
swing a golf club like you kindof alluded to earlier.
You're not seeing a lot ofweird movement patterns out of
those guys.
Like generally your betterplayers kind of look like you
know better players and theykind of move well and swing well
and the ball doesn't curve muchand all of those things right.

(12:23):
So you know, I think that theinteresting thing is that for
most of these guys I'm going toeven say up to a five, you know,
I think that when they go andget a quote unquote normal golf
lesson from a normal guy thateither works at the club or
hangs out at the range orwhatever the case may be, you
know generally that betterplayer is apprehensive, as they

(12:46):
should be, because they're abetter player and like they
found some stuff that worksright.
So they're always on guard.
And then, you know, dependingon the level of expertise of
that coach, you know they don'twant to mess with that guy very
much because the last thing theywant to do is mess up a good
player.
So I think that those guysreally have a difficult time
finding coaching to get betterfrom that five level, you know,

(13:10):
down to a plus or whatever thecase may be.
So I think that where we reallyhave a massive advantage is that
we're able to show peoplethings that can't be seen with
the naked eye, and I know thatyou know, just like you know
people always like want to.
You know they always say thatwhen people kind of copy you,
it's a form of flattery, right.

(13:31):
But there's a lot of people whosee, you know, hashtag golf
biomechanics and hashtag groundreaction forces, and the next
thing, you know they're sayingthat they're a ground reaction
force expert, yet they don'thave anything to measure
pressure or force.
So I mean it's invisible, right.
So I think that's what reallysets us apart.
So, you know, what do you thinkabout the force plates?

Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah, for sure, like I've never been scared to
implement change with players,regardless of their level of
play, because it's not myopinion.
When it's my opinion, I'mterrified.
When I was quote, unquote youknow, as you say, a normal coach
, so working out on a drivingrange with you know, I remember

(14:13):
wheeling a cart that had acomputer and a camera.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Was it a JC video?
By chance it sure was.
Oh, the yellow briefcase.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
You know, drawing the lines on the screen and all
that kind of jazz.
I mean, like you know, that wasmy best guess, like it was
better than guessing, but it wascertainly still a guessing,
right, obviously, 2d versus 3Dand all the issues that we run
into with video and frame areference for the player and all
that kind of stuff.
We run into all those problemsand that I'm terrified.
I'm like that's why I don't doonline instruction until I've

(14:43):
seen somebody on plates.
I get all these.
I get tons of requests ofplayers hey, can you take a look
at this?
Do you know what this like?
What should I do?
Like I have no idea.
I don't know enough about theplayer.
I don't know enough about theirball flight, I don't have
measurable, I don't have howthey move.
I don't know, and you know Ihave good ideas.
But, like you'll know this, likeyou know, when I see a player,
I try to make a guess at whatI'm gonna see before I look at

(15:04):
the data.
I'm gonna see heavy verticals.
Am I gonna see good horizontals?
What am I gonna see?
I get it right like 60% of thetime, maybe.
Yeah, that's just not goodenough to work with video.
It's just not right.
Sometimes, like you know, whenyou know, when we talk about a
player who has heavy verticalsand they get out of those
verticals pretty quickly, wetypically will see the leg
straight.
Right, the lead leg will tendto straighten.

(15:25):
Even the trail leg willstraighten up.
But not always.
I've had players who keep itbent and like push it off the
ground in a bent fashion.
So I'm not suggesting that Ican't get anything right on
video, I'm just suggesting thatit's not where I'm most
comfortable.

Speaker 1 (15:42):
Right, so again to your better player.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
Let's try this right Like, look man, I'll throw you
out on a range with zerotechnology and I'll take my
chances.
I got faith in you and, likeyou said, you might not get it
right on the first try, butyou've got enough.
You've got enough tools at yourdisposal to where, if, if we
work at this long enough, we'regoing to get it right.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
So I have, I just want to make sure it's just
going to take time.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
The masses that we're clarifying here.
Yeah, for sure we don't have tohave technology to coach.
But here's the differentiator,I think, and we are obviously on
the spectrum somewhere way highor way low, whichever way you
look at it because the two of usrepresent two guys that were
willing to invest a substantialamount of money and when I say

(16:31):
substantial I mean like the costof two Trackman to buy some
force plates, and you know wealso have a launch monitor.
You know we also have, you know, whatever other tools we've
invested in to actually try toget a better understanding of
this.
So when you say that it's aguess in those things, I think

(16:52):
we need to keep in mind thateverybody is guessing, like if
they say they're not, they'reabsolutely lying, because
everybody is guessing.
The difference between whatwe're trying to say is that we
would like to control as manyvariables as possible within our
guesses.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
And I would like to get it right as quick as I can.
Absolutely, and that's where,like you know, to your point of
being out on a driving rangewith a player, yeah, I can make
good change.
I you know I shouldn't, Ishouldn't slight myself like
that, but I don't know if I'mgoing to get it right the first
time.
I don't know if that feelsgoing to be right the first time
.
I know that.
You know if we're trying tosolve whatever the problem is
right, that the ball flightproblem, I know what, typically,
what graph needs to move whereand when I see that graph move,

(17:30):
I don't care about the resultand that's the problem.
On the driver range, right, likeI had a player in pretty good
player yesterday and he hit likea complete shank and hit my
quad.
Okay, so it's, you know a footahead of the player and you know
a foot to the right or a coupleof feet to the right and he and
he's a the four or fivehandicap, pretty decent ball
striker and he had just thestraight up toe shank.

(17:52):
Well, he was an early extenderwho I got him into a little bit
better downswing position.
That learned behavior kicked inand he early extended and he
hit it like literally 50millimeters off the toe.
Okay, now on the range.
He's so embarrassed now for thenext 15 or like 10, 15 minutes,
now I'm going to have a hardtime getting him to do anything
else.
But when I can show him datathat says hey man, I know the

(18:14):
results sucked, here's why theresults sucked, but look at all
the stuff I asked you to do.
That was actually way, way, waybetter.
Well, within a couple of shotshe's back to flushing.
Now on the range, I can't.
I can't gain that same level ofconfidence from that player
because I don't have theevidence to suggest hey, I know
you hit the worst shot you'vehit in 20 years, right, but you

(18:34):
did a lot of stuff really,really well.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
The 100% agree, like I really really do.
I mean, I teach indoors.
I prefer to teach indoors.
I've taught a lot of lessonsoutdoors.
I still teach outdoors fromtime to time and the thing you
know, the thing I like about theindoor teaching is that there's
a couple of things.

(18:57):
The first is that within myspace you know, I think people
don't realize in a simulator youare kind of fixed in terms of
your aim because you're tryingto hit the middle of the screen.
So the thing that is reallyinteresting to me is how many
people come in and every one oftheir balls starts right down
Broadway, right down the middleright, and then curves to the

(19:19):
right and they're like that'sweird, I don't miss shots to the
right and I go.
Well, that's because you aimleft at the range, right.
Sure thing.
That's why, because you havetarget oriented right.
So, long story short, you know,I like the fact that people can
actually learn their ballflight a little easier because

(19:40):
they can't just manipulate theiralignments to their target.
The other thing that I reallylove that it kind of really goes
nicely with what you just saidis you know, I have a lot of
players come in and I'm gonna gothe opposite way with your
story, right, you said you had aguy come in, get nervous shanks
.
It hits the quad, right, we'vehad that happen, of course.
But here's another good story,right?

(20:01):
What about the guy that comesin and is just putting on a
flush show, like just stripingeverything?
Right, like you're like?
man, you don't need a golflesson you need to go and like
play on a Monday, you know whatI mean.
Like you can call for it quicklybut like this is another
opportunity, right, because whatwe can do within the force
plates or whatever other pieceof technology but, you know,

(20:21):
we're obviously talking forceplates here but what we're able
to do, man is we can dig in andactually look at how that player
created the movement to stripethat shot, right.
And then what we can do is wecan actually, in my opinion,
start looking at, you know, theoverall pattern of the shot that
this player creates, and it'slike, yeah, you know what.

(20:43):
You absolutely flush it 20 outof a hundred times with that
particular pattern, and that'spretty good, right.
The problem, though, is thatyour magnitude on the mishits is
huge, and you, like, make adouble or triple and make a real
mess of the hole, right.
So I think that's where theplate really set us apart,
because instead of being forcedinto just looking at oh, that

(21:04):
was a good shot, I guess theswing was pretty good Now we can
actually dig a little bitdeeper and see, hey, did they
kind of time that one up welland get kind of lucky with the
delivery of the club, or didthey actually move in a kind of
efficient and effective way?

Speaker 2 (21:18):
Right, I mean I use the plates and other technology
too, like 3D technology, forbenchmarking performance.
If I've got a player who's like, yeah man, I'm super stoked
with the way I'm playing, likeyou know, whether they're a mini
tour player or, like you know,nick is an example or whatever
you know, I need to know, okay,when that player is playing
really, really well, whenthey're leading you know when
they're leading the tour andapproach green strokes gained,

(21:41):
okay, that week.
What were they doing?
Were they 30% on a horizontalwideleaf but or were they 22%?
And then when they come back in, I want to look at that and say
, hey, you had a really toughweek last week.
Let's take a look and see wherethat kind of key performance
indicator is.
Is it higher or lower?
Let's maybe feel like we canget it back to that number that
we know works really well foryou.

(22:02):
And it's astonishing at likeyou know that disease of more
that Pat Riley talks about.
Right, it's like more is notalways better.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
Right.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
So in the case of, like you know, in our world,
like verticals, everybody wantsmore and more verticals.
It's like cool, but oftentimeswe're going to see that get way
too shallow.
With a seven iron, I don't wantyou to be at 220% of your body
weight, even though you cancreate it.
I don't want it because it getsthat club moving in an upward
fashion too quickly and you tendto like hit some thin, stanky
ones, right?
Okay, cool, I know that you'regoing to operate way better at
190%.

(22:32):
Let's get the feelings of how todo that, and knowing where a
player performs their best is asimportant for good players as
making change for your.
You know the players that needthat change and how to
understand.
You know how human performanceand human movement works, right?
So that benchmarking aspect, Ithink, is really underrated.
I mean, we do the same thingwith, like, a track man or a

(22:52):
quad, right?
Like you know, with your trackman.
You know that if a player isplaying really well, you know,
maybe, that that face to pathrelationship always stays within
one degree, and then they comein and I was really struggling.
Okay, well, face to path issuper variable, isn't it?
They need five shots.
We're seeing a three degreeseparation from your highest,
your lowest.
It's tough to play golf thatway at your level.
A 10 handicap might be reallystoked with a three degree.

(23:17):
And they come in and they comein at an eight degree difference
.
You know what?

Speaker 1 (23:19):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
We always know, if we know when that player is
playing.
Really well we can, we reallydo know what's happening A with
club delivery, b with ballflight and C with the human
movement.
Right, and we can just try toscale that player back to where
they are.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
The thing that I think is really, you know, a
tough, a tough go for guys likeus is, you know, we get into the
weeds, and I mean we reallyhaven't yet, but you know, when
we get into the weeds, you knowthe language definitely.
It definitely changes right andit definitely gets a little more
technical and a little bit moremedical grade, let's call it so

(23:56):
.
You know, I think a lot ofpeople think that a lot of the
concepts that we're trying toexplain to people are very
technical and difficult tounderstand and learn.
But in fairness to that person,I would argue that the reason
that we have to have thistechnology isn't because we
can't see this or figure thisout, like we talked about

(24:17):
earlier.
Rather it's to kind of includethe player and be able to show
them.
You know, I think it's powerfulstuff, man, being able to show
somebody just their pressureshift and like I know that
there's force plate users outthere that just talk on the
smack about, you know, pressuremats.
But I think there's a lot ofgood that you can learn out of
just a pressure mat, right, Ithink that there's undevaluable

(24:39):
information there.
You know where does the pivotgo.
You can figure that out on apressure mat.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
So you know like.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
I think that you know , a lot of times people think
that, to your point, like it'sjust we're gonna give them more
information and more things tothink about.
And the one thing that I am100% certain of, 100% certain of
, is when people play well, theythink less, not more.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
There's a definite.
There's definite correlation tohow blank you can leave your
mind and how well you can play,for sure.
But we don't want to let thatlet's call automation skill get
in the way of skill acquisition,right?
So, like the analogy that Ialways use to talk to players
about this, because everybodywants automation of skill, like

(25:25):
me, right?
Like everybody, and I'm likeyou know, for people who have
kids out there or young enoughto remember when they learned
how to drive, your parents didnot just hand you the keys to
the car and say see ya, you hadto go to driving school and then
you had to pass a written test,and then you had to pass a
driver's test.
And at least you know, I grewup in Ontario you couldn't have
a drink in your system until youwere 22.
You had to have anotherlicensed driver in the car.

(25:47):
For a year you weren't allowedon major highways.
Why?
Because you're stupid, youdon't know what you're doing,
right?
You have no idea.
You have to.
You have to take in all thatstimuli.
You have to anticipate whatother drivers are doing.
You have to drive your own car.
You have to do all that stuff.
Now, is that hyper technical,maybe.
I mean, it could be life anddeath situations on the road,
right, so it's pretty importantstuff.

(26:07):
Eventually, though, you and Ican hop in our car, do a
conference call it, eat asandwich, drink a coffee, listen
to a podcast, shut our brainoff completely and arrive at our
destination with a harm 99.9%of the time, and that's skill
automation, right.
We have to learn it, though.
So, you know, I try to get topeople where it's like yeah,
conscious thoughts are reallygreat.
Idea on the range 100%.

(26:29):
I want every rep to be asconsciously focused as humanly
possible.
I want you to be videoing yourgolf swing, because once we're
on, force plays and we know,okay, this is what it's kind of
supposed to look like.
Okay, that's the box we'reoperating in.
Don't be scared of consciousthought.
You can't learn a skill bythinking about it.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Or.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
I can't watch a YouTube video on how to fix my
radiator in my car and then belike, oh, I know how to fix the
radiator, I don't know how tofix the radiator, right, I can't
even get my car up off theground.
I can't barely change the flattire for God's sake, let alone
fix my rat.
So, like you know, I can watchall the content I want, but the
application of that and then theautomation of that is like
wildly, wildly different, right,right, so you know.

(27:10):
And to your point about likecomplicated terms, it's like,
yeah, like it's complicatedinformation.
My job is to make it easy,though, right, that's my job,
it's to understand the feels,the drills, all that kind of
stuff.
But you know, I tend to usereally complicated language.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
I tend to make professors.
And the whole time I was incollege.
By the way, it took me abouteight years to get an undergrad
degree the real smart guy here.
But my buddy got his dental oris a doctorate degree when I got
my undergrad.
We went to school at the sametime, but long story short, I
had you had.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
You had more fun, though, Michael.
You had more fun.

Speaker 1 (27:43):
I definitely had more fun.
Yeah, thank for it now.
But anyway, long story short, Ihad two professors that really
left a lasting impact on me andit was funny because you would
go to the lecture and these guyswould make this stuff look so
simple.
I mean it was just like, oh myGod, like this is probably what
I should do with my life,because this makes so much sense

(28:03):
.
And then you would like go, youknow, leave the class, go get
something to go back to.
Well, I didn't, but most peoplego back to the library and
study and you crack the book,man, and it might as well be
written and Mandarin, because itdoesn't make any sense.
And it's just amazing at howpeople that truly you know, have

(28:24):
the knowledge right.
You know, that's a big part,like we're talking about.
Like you got to have goodconcepts to work with, so you
have to have the knowledge base,but then you also have to have
this thing called theapplication right, and you've
got to be able to do somethingwith that knowledge.
And then, when you really getthe good stuff, you wind up with
wisdom right, when you're ableto put those two things together
kind of harmoniously, you getsome wisdom and then that leads

(28:47):
to mastery of that skill.
Like you're talking about beingable to drive, to work and do
all these things and nothingever happens because it's on
autopilot and you're good atdoing this.
But those two guys really hadmastery of the subject.
They had real life experience.
You know they hadn't justwatched a bunch of content, read
a few books and got a t-shirtright, like they had lived that
side with it.

(29:08):
You know they had doneeverything there was and they
really had mastery.
And what made the masters, likeI just described, was being
able to take something that Ididn't know anything about and
make it seem like it was like myright hand.
You know what I mean.
Like they just really have theability to take really massive
amounts of complex informationand just distill it down to like

(29:29):
, hey, it's real simple, do thisRight.
And your point.
You know I think that a lot ofpeople are shocked.
But they'll come in for a golflesson with me and like they get
a 60 question evaluation beforethey even show up.
Right, like I got, there's a lotof stuff I need to know, and if
you're working on my program,then you're doing some precision
breathing work with NeuropeakPro, right?

(29:51):
We're making sure that we'relearning how to control that
because obviously, like, youcan't outthink a parasympathetic
response, right?
So we got a camera, especiallyfor young people.
It's really important.
We're also doing cognitivefunction training with our
clients, meaning that they'redoing this visual adjustment,
doing this training online,because your eyes have nine

(30:13):
cognitive skills they'reresponsible for.
So, like, a hardware test interms of what your opto
ophthalmologist does is notreally useful for this setting.
But, like, I've seen peoplecome in and like it doesn't
matter whether they have a rangefinder or not.
Their depth perception is sopoor that they just have no idea
how far the target is away andyou can't make them believe it
because that's what they see.

(30:33):
So being able to fix those likeit's a holistic approach.
That's what I'm getting at,right, it's not sure for sure.
Like, hey, the club does X, theball does Y.
This is, you know, we're nottrying to make these broad
assumptions.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
Right, and I mean for what you do.
I mean, you know we talked alittle bit about this but like
you're a coach, right, you takeyour fully responsible for that
player's performance Right.
So, and again, those things areawesome because, like you know,
I know for myself as a player,I struggle with that perception.
You know, I'll play with mybuddies, we'll go on a golf trip
every year and I'll play withmy buddies and we'll find an, a
dog leg to the right, and I'mlike I'm just going to roast it

(31:07):
at that tree and turn it over.
And yeah, it draws everywhere.
And I'll hit it at that treeand it won't draw.
And it's like 50 yards out ofbounds.
They're like why are we hittingit over there?
I'm like what's like 300 yards?
I can't fly it.
There's not exactly right and mydepth perception like suck.
So I like I use my rangefinderfrom everywhere, everywhere

(31:28):
outside of 30 yards, and I getmade fun of for that.
But like I know the differencebetween 30 yard carry distance
with a lot of wedge and 35.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
Okay, I'm not going to know 32 and 34, but I'm going
to coach you up right here.
You ready?
I love the fact you'redifferent, and this is me
talking to a player right now.
Dude, I don't care if you haveto use that rangefinder from the
friend.
You do you right, because theone thing that I will tell you
and and you're being kind, youspend probably more time around
tour players than I do, but onething I am convinced of, man, is

(32:01):
there is not one single playeron the PGA tour who is anywhere
near normal Every one of theseguys is at least who clicks off
standard deviation, like everyone of them Like.
And I say do you like?
you know, if your depthperception sucks, you better use
that rangefinder, because Iwould rather look like a nerd
out there using my rangefinderand winning the trophy than

(32:23):
looking like a nerd out thereusing my rangefinder, not
winning the trophy.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
So make 100% right, like I'm a big basketball fan
and like to Malcolm Gladwell'spoint like why didn't in Chak or
any of these terrible freethrow shooters?
Like you, honest, like throw itunder him Like it's an ego
thing, right, and you know youput your ego aside if you want
ultimate performance.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
Somebody.
I heard this stat somewhere, Idon't know.
I don't know if it's true ornot, but this is the internet,
so it doesn't matter.
Like I heard this stat thatlike something, like they think
like 30% of like homicidemurders happen because somebody
didn't want to be in polite,like the person that ends up
murdered, like knew somethingwas up before, like the actual

(33:03):
situation, but like hey, leaveme alone you know what I mean
and make a scene early enough.
They let it go too far.
Yeah, you don't want to be likepeople, don't want to stick out
.
Man, you're exactly right Likeeverybody for sure wants to be
part of the tribe.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
That's right.
I mean, we have a herdmentality right, and that
sometimes serves us pretty welland sometimes, like, really
hurts us.
And you know to your pointabout, you know, using a
rangefinder or all these othercoaching ideas.
I'm lucky man, I don't have todeal with any of that, right, my
job is easy.
My job is like hey, what'swhat's the technical, what's the
technical part of the equationthat I'm missing, right?

(33:40):
So, like in the case of Nick, itwas, hey, I had two or three
shots a day.
They double crossed and nobodycan tell me why I do it.
I was like, oh man, likelicking my chops at this, like
this is really great.
And we basically had to find aneedle in a haystack that is
invisible through the eye and wesaid, okay, well, like here's,
you know, can we see it's alittle under playing?
Yeah, can we see that?

(34:00):
Like in TGM kind of terminology, are we running out a little
bit of right arm a little toosoon?
Yeah, okay, cool, but why?
Right, anybody can probably seethat.
But why are we?
Why are we behaving that?

Speaker 1 (34:12):
way Going another level deep right, right.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
And we, we looked at it and we're like, okay, like
this is why.
And all of a sudden, like boom,like you know, he came in here
hitting zero path, with aslightly closed face, trying to
trying to fade it.
Like well, there's a doublecross, bro.
Like I don't know why, nobodycan tell you this.
Let's find out why we squarethat up.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
He was basically trying to manage that through
dynamic lie.

Speaker 2 (34:33):
Basically right.
And he was he.
He hits slightly up on it,pretty square and with a
slightly closed face, and I'mlike, well, there's your recipe
for 20 yards left, like all day.
And he would aim left, left,edge and hit it in the left
graph.
And he told me he's like youknow, he's like I think it cost
me like a couple hundred grand ayear and his best year on tour
was just a shade under twomillion.

(34:54):
He made just a shade over sevenmillion this year.
So I was like I don't know ifit's costing you a couple
hundred grand, it would cost mea few million a year.
And ultimately, like you know,for my relationship with any
player, whether it is a goodplayer here, whether it's Nick,
whether it's a Mackenzie tourplayer, it doesn't matter who it
is, it's all about how can thatplayer accomplish what they

(35:14):
want right?
And for a coach, you have tostart to set the tone of what
that player needs.
You have to set the expectation, you have to set the game plan,
you have to set okay this iswhy I think this and you need to
buy in from the player.
Fortunately for me, to somedegree, I don't do any of that.
I let the coach and the playercome to that conclusion and I

(35:34):
try to give them the technicalknow how to hit the golf shot
they want.
So if I get a player who wantsto turn it over both directions
off the tee, they need to know.
Okay, here's my anatomicalstructure, here's my movement
pattern, here's whatever youknow.
To me it's a lot of neck tilt,eye line, ball position type of
stuff pretty easy stuff.
Now, do I always like that thatplayer is going to want to turn
it over both ways?

(35:55):
I subscribe to a little bit ofthe decade philosophy where I'd
rather see players hit it onedirection off the tee.
I don't always like it, butit's my job.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
I think it's going to play man.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
I don't want to coach and the player get they want
and you know, I always say likeif I told, if I told Bubba
Watson, you can move in fivemore times on live but you could
only hit one ball flight, You'dtell me to take a hike.
If I told DJ, you could winfive more times when, another 50
million on lift tour, but heneeded to learn how to turn over
the driver, He'd be like I'mout, See you later.
Right it, just, it just isn'tgoing to happen.
So there's there's player.

(36:25):
Than if I told Tiger, hey, youhave to hit this one specific
golf shot, I probably would havelimited Tiger.
No, not all of us have Tigersskillset, right.
Not all of us have Tigers feelon the innate ability to create
and see curvature.
So for some of us it's waybetter the math works out in
Scott's point, like ScottCross's point, but the math
works out better to hit onestandard golf shot and play
through their strategy, notthrough shape.

(36:46):
But that's not my job.
It's not my, it's not my job totell a player what they should
do.
It's my job to tell them how todo what they want to do and let
the chips fall where they will.
You know where, where, whereyou're definitely a little bit
more responsible for all theother stuff.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
Well it's, it's different, right and like.
I want to be fully transparentand I want to give you credit
because you kind of help meunderstand and shape.
You know how my working withyou know, let's say, tour
players you know better players,tour players, whether it be
corn fairy, pga tour, lpga,whatever right when I work with

(37:22):
a lot of the tour players, as amatter of fact, I don't have
anybody that I'm the primarycoach for on the tour right now.
I don't have one single playerthat I'm the primary coach for
and, I'll be honest, I kind ofhave backed out of that role
because, to your point, you know, if you're going to be a
full-time coach on the PGA tourin my opinion, and you're going
to wear the coach's hat andyou're going to be the service

(37:45):
provider and find the people tosupport, because it's not a
one-man job anymore, there'sjust too many variables that
you're trying to control.
So if you're going to be thatperson, you need to be with that
player pretty much full-time.
And I have other interests and Ihave other things I do.
So I've kind of taken theplumber model out there on tour
right to where you know I'm avery good plumber and my tools

(38:07):
cost a lot of money for me toget them out of the truck.
So here's the deal Like you'regoing to pay me like the best
plumber in town because I liketo believe I am, but you're
going to pay me to fix the leak.
You're not going to pay meevery time it doesn't leak.
So I don't work off percentages, I don't do any of that stuff.
And like you said, man, like Ishow up and like the coach is
already there, right, theplayers are already there.
They're already screaming andyelling at each other and can't

(38:29):
figure out why whatever'shappening is happening, right.
And then like I'm kind of likethe peacemaker, right, and I go
hey, neither one of you arewrong, you're saying the same
thing.
But like let's look at it fromthis perspective and see if this
doesn't kind of jive with whatyou guys are trying to say,
right, and it's like, oh my God,like now there's some harmony,
Now we can actually get you knowback to like playing golf but

(38:52):
we can get some work done.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
If we can come on the same page, we can actually work
right.
But when you're reading twodifferent books, like it's not,
you can't have the sameconversation.
You need to be reading the samebook on the same page to
actually start to have thatconversation with a player.
You know and you know.
For me it's all about that,that role that we fill right.
So for me, like I never wantedto be Greg Popovich or Phil
Jackson, it's too much stressman.

(39:14):
There's too many variables thatgo into playing really high
level golf.
You know you're nutrition.
So the couple of years that Ispent on the Mackenzie tour or
the Canadian tour back thendoing tour support for their
players, where I met, like Tonyand JJ and Hugo Leon and a bunch
of really great players, Iwould be as a single guy.
I would be out maybe late on aThursday night at a restaurant

(39:36):
or an establishment and I wouldsee guys out there closing down
the bar who play on Fridaymorning and I'm like man like
aren't you going to play earlytomorrow?
And they're like, ah man, I shot74 today, like I'm done.
I'm like that's weird, can'tyou go shoot 66 tomorrow and
make a cut and make a paycheck,right?
So we have, like, how to travelas a professional, we have how
to eat, we have all.

(39:56):
We have short game and all thedifferent variables that go in
expectation, management, fitness, all this different stuff that
goes into playing golf.
I got to be honest.
To me it has always feltdisingenuous to tell somebody
who can be 17 under par on the71st hole what they should be
doing from a game plan, from a,because I've never been that guy
.
Right, I'm a.
I'm a two handicap, one or twohandicap.

(40:18):
I'm a pretty decent player.
I've never been really great.
I'm probably better now than Ihave been in a long time since I
was a kid.
And the fact of the matter isit's like it just doesn't make
sense for me to tell a PGA to aplayer how they should be doing,
what they should be thinking,all that kind of stuff.
I just I would be literallyrecycling other people's ideas
and what they told me Right,like what Mark Blackburn says

(40:41):
and what and what goodnutritionists say and all this
different stuff, and it's alwaysfelt a little disingenuous Do I
have a really good idea of howto technically move the golf all
the way that they want to?
I'm pretty sure I do.
I can do.
I can do that with some reallygood comp.
Yeah.
So I want to be the nerd in thebackground who teaches, like
Ben Simmons, how to shoot.
I don't want to have to do gameplan, setting picks for players
to run off of and how to schemedefenses and how to do all this

(41:03):
stuff.
I just want to be the nerd whoteaches Ben Simmons how to shoot
.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
Honestly, that's my ultimate dream job.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
by the way, I that's like I would love to do that.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
I think it's hilarious to hear you say this,
because I really hope that thereare a lot of my friends and
colleagues listening to thisepisode in particular, man,
because I've been gettingroughed up.
Man because, like there for aminute, you know, there was a
lot of opportunity coming my wayand there was a lot of, like
you know, pretty good playerscoming through the door and all
that stuff and well known namesand what have you.
And like all of a sudden, likeit was almost like somebody

(41:31):
turned off the spigot and all myboys are like dude, is
everything okay?
Like are you not?
Are you not doing what?
And I'm like, yeah, man, I justdon't know if that's for me.
You know, it's your point, man,it's like I couldn't have said
it more exactly Like I'm playing, you know probably about a
three right now, because I'mplaying very much.
Three or four probably I canplay pretty well.
You know, I'm probably I amhitting it as far as I've ever

(41:54):
hit it.
Like all those things are good,I'm playing better.
But to your point, man, it'slike when you're out there and
you're kind of like responsiblefor you know, let's say, a 22 to
30 year old and you know you'retrying to tell them how to beat
the world and you've never beatthe world yourself.
It's like, you know, likethere's a lot of rah, rah and

(42:14):
and I've kind of made some peacewith it in a couple of moments
to where it's like he hasn'tbeen here either.
So you know, at least two headsput together is better than one
, and you know, that's kind ofhow I've.
I guess I've made my peace withit from time to time.
But you know, I think what yousaid on the backside of that is
just brilliant, man, because thepeople who are really good and

(42:35):
you brought up some great people.
Mark Blackburn, unbelievableman.
The success that that guy'shaving on at the tour level I
mean, he's got four people inthe Ryder Cup.
Man, it's unreal Right.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
But he doesn't do it by himself, right, and I don't
know I don't know Markpersonally.
I've seen him speak a bunch oftimes that I don't know Mark
personally, but I know that he'snot doing it himself.
I know that he uses fitnessguys.
I know that there's otherpeople on Max's team and
whoever's team, right, I had aconversation with Craig Davies,
who's a tour athletics guy basedout of Orlando, and we were

(43:05):
talking about Nick and I wassaying, hey, I'm having a real
problem getting him to performthis task that I want him to do
because we're chasing a littlebit of ball speed over the off
season.
And I was like you know, thisis what I'm thinking, this is
what I want to do.
How do, how do we relate?
That's what you're doing?
What have you seen from thatathlete that says, hey, like,
maybe that's a good idea, maybeit's not.
And he informed me on some like, some, some tendon durability

(43:27):
that Nick doesn't have, someexplosiveness that he doesn't
kind of currently lack.
So Craig put him on an eightweek program.
He's like I think you'll beable to see an improvement in
what you want come six or eightweeks, as long as Nick does the
work.
So my conversation with Nickwas I we're going to continue to
chase the consistency, the ballstriking side of things.
But you need to do Craig's workand then we're going to go

(43:48):
revisit this come eight weeksfrom now.
Absolutely, and that's howteams work right.
I don't know what Craig knows.
I don't know what Joe Mayoknows, and Joe is doing some
great work on putting a bunch ofstuff out online that he's been
doing with Hoblin lately and Ithink it's really great for
coaches to understand right.
But you know, I don't know whatthose guys know and I'm not
interested in knowing what thoseguys know.

(44:09):
I don't want to know how to doevery single thing.
I want to know how to do onething really, really, really
well.
And when I narrow that focusdown for myself, I got just a
lot better at what I do.
You know, trying to learn,trying to keep up on putting,
you know, trying to like I'mbehind, I don't know, it doesn't
pay walls or so.
So trying to keep up on, likePhil Kenyans putting stuff and

(44:31):
then looking at all the aimpoint stuff I do that for my own
game, but trying to like,maintain all of those things is
literally a full-time job.
I could literally spend eighthours a day online consuming
information right Now.
It might make me a better coach, it might make me more
knowledgeable across the board,but not really interested.
And I got to make money, so Igot to work at some point.

(44:52):
I can't just consumeinformation, right.
I can't just go to school forthis stuff.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
And now you're going to do that.
Yeah, like now, it's not allfun and game.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
No, I mean.
So narrowing the focus allowsme to say, okay, well, I need to
keep up to date on.
You know what you're talkingabout and what Scott Lynn is
talking about and what SteveFurlonger is talking about and
what Biomechanics like Mark Bullare talking about.
Right, I need to keep up onthat stuff.
The rest of it, I mean, do Ilook at Joe's stuff for my own
game?
Yeah, do I teach it to pay?
I haven't taught a short gamelesson in years.

(45:22):
I don't do any of that stuff.
So for me it's like I'll stilltry to keep up to date on what's
happening in the world.
But my focus is like crazy,crazy narrow and it allows me to
just get to the nuts and boltsof what I can do and I can tell
a player like, listen, I can'thelp you, and that's okay.
Right, it took me a while tocome to grips with that, but
it's okay that I can't help.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Maturity, right, it's just maturity, that's all it is
For sure.
You know, I think so.
You know, I mean, I think itshows that, you know, you get to
a point, man, and you just kindof realize, like you know, I at
least spent money.
You know, I at least spent mostof my younger life trying to be
the one guy left standing ontop of the mountain and you just
, you kind of realize thatthat's a young man's dream,

(46:01):
right.
And it's kind of not true,because you know, I think the
Arnold Schwarzeneggerdocumentary is incredible on
Netflix.
Whether you're an Arnold fan ornot, I think it's incredible.
The man's like had four full,it's unreal what he's
accomplished in his life, butlike he is very adamant at the
end of it, basically like don'tcall me a self-made man, I'm not

(46:21):
self-made Like I had a lot of.
And it's true, right.
Because you know, I don't thinkthat.
You know I don't think a Rory,let's say you know there could
be a young, you know, 16, 17, 18year old Rory out there
probably is, there's probably 20of them, maybe more, but
they're out there, right.
And if those guys unfortunatelydon't get the right kind of

(46:43):
help and learn to develop theskills that are needed to play
at the highest of levels, notjust the skill itself to play,
but the other skills you have tosurround with that, I mean it's
they just never develop andthey never get to the point
where they can shoot that 66 andmake a paycheck and, like you
know, they just never learn howto be a professional.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
For sure.
I've got a guy who came and sawme about a month ago and he's
17, just turned 17.
He's a plus five.
He has 18 hole in ones.
Check that out Like that'sinsane to me.
I don't have a single one.
My wife reminds me of thatevery time because she has one.
But I had this kid and he'snever taken a golf lesson.
He's like I just played withgood players.

(47:24):
I kind of mimic.
He has kind of a self made move.
We talked about, okay, whatmakes it good, what makes it
maybe not as repeatable as we'dlike to see, but as a plus five
it's pretty darn repeatable.
And he was like you know what,what should be the next step,
speed.
I was like, okay, well, here'sthe guy that I would recommend
in the lower mainland for likecoaching.
Here's the guy that I wouldrecommend to go see for putting.
Here's the guy that I wouldrecommend to go see short game.

(47:46):
Here's the guy I wouldrecommend to go see about like
your mental performance Right.
Here's the guy that I would gotalk to about nutrition.
Here's your physiotherapist.
It was six different peoplehere here and I sent out emails
introducing and linking them allup and it's like these guys can
help you.
Right, I can do this littlesliver of information for you
and here are the six names thatI think are kind of the best

(48:08):
that you can get to readilyavailable in our area.
Or, you know, I the one guy forputting I definitely told him
to fly out somewhere and I saidhere is the crew of guys that I
would absolutely trust, and notbecause they're all PGA tour
coaches or anything like thatbecause they're really smart,
they're probably not on the listand all that.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
Yeah, it's for sure.
There's aren't the people.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
Right, and, and.
And.
You know I'm looking for smart,passionate people who I know
can help, who will definitelystay within their stream.
Right, you know, I want aplayer to go to a club fitter
who's not going to recommend.
Oh, you know, you're only twoup, so I'd like to see you more.
Well, there's a reason thatplayers to five up.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
That's going to be great for you.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
Right and then when I tow hook it's a thousand RPM
going dead ass left.
I'm like there's a reason thatplayers two up.
He hits more fairways at twoupper, keeps it in front of them
more often at two up.
I want him to do it.
I don't need a fitter tellinghim oh you know, if you want to
five up, you'd spend it lessthan you hit it further Right,
not the goal.
So I want, I want a team aroundplayers that are going to stick
in their lane and not not.

(49:12):
Not that other people can'thave different disciplines, but
the guys that I'm looking forare going to do very specific
things really accurately for aplayer Right.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
Here's how I would describe you and I would
describe myself very much thesame way.
You know I don't like the wordexpert, but I I'm going to go
ahead and throw it out therebecause while I don't believe
I'm an expert, I mean me and you.
I mean there's not.
There's Dr Scotland, there's afew guys from a couple of the
other force play communities,but there's not very many of us.

(49:40):
I mean there's like maybe 15 ofus that are really getting into
this every single day.
So I'm going to go ahead andsay that we've kind of at the at
this point or the expert levelwith the force plate stuff as
best we know it so far.
But you know, I think that youhave the ability, even though
you don't do it, you do have theability to triage.

(50:02):
Just like I have the ability totriage right and like that's
kind of what I want to be reallygood at is I want to be able to
triage in the moment until Ican get them to that person on
the team that this is theirthing and and that's really I
think the art of coaching rightis learning how to be a really
good triage specialist, and likeI still have to do my job with

(50:25):
the force plates, like when I'mthe coach in that role, to your
point, like this is what I'mhere to do, like this has got to
be perfect always.
But in those other capacities,you know, I'm definitely more of
the triage guy, until we canget you to the person that's
really going to be able to makethe most impact.
For sure, for sure, right, youknow, I think, for us to real

(50:45):
quick because I do want to getto this before we run out of
time today.
But you know, I think thebiggest thing that you probably
provide with the force platesand I provide with the force
plates is, I think that a lot ofpeople probably walk away from
an experience with you and froman experience with me and they
probably feel like they violateda lot of the things they

(51:05):
thought they knew or thoughtthey should be doing.
Because I think that what wereally have the ability to do by
showing people what can't beseen with the naked eye, is we
really get them to challengetheir concepts and we really get
them to challenge what theythink they should be doing.
Right.
And that's very much thatconversation around feel and
real.
And I get frustrated at thatconversation because I see

(51:27):
people say that all the time,but I don't see a pressure mat
or a force plate anywhere to beseen.
And I really think, when we'retalking about the differences
between feel and real, we'retalking about those forces and
torques being exchanged betweenthe feet and the ground, because
I think that's what we feel,because it's obviously a larger
force center than the onehappening at the hands.
So, with all that being said, Ithink that the reason that

(51:49):
we're really seeing this massiveconceptual change in terms of
how to hit a golf ball is whatwe started talking about before
we came on air to shoot thisthing, which was you know a lot
of the books, man, that peoplecome in and quote to me every
day, just like they come in andquote to you every day, even
though we're in two differentcountries.
Most of those books werewritten pre 1999.

(52:10):
And a lot of things changeright.
We got a track man, whichreally helped us understand the
nine ball flights a little bitbetter and, most importantly, we
stopped playing with a balladagolf ball.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
For sure you know that ballada golf ball, the
combination of high lofted golfclubs and a ballada golf ball
still influences a huge numberof golfers today.
So the concept that the waythat a lot of players picture
the golf swing, the way theythink about it, is absolutely
colored by the way that theyused to play or by what they

(52:44):
consume, the way their dadtaught them right?
I have these couple of kids whoplay, or young guys who play,
over at a local club that I gowork at once a month or so, and
their dad has taught them.
And I saw one of them and thenhe started to play better.
And then I saw the other sonand he started to play better.
And then, finally, the dad camein and he told me it's like I
feel like you told my kids thatI taught them wrong.
I was like no, no, no, no, likeyou taught them the best you

(53:04):
could, so, but the things thatyou've taught them are no longer
applicable, right?
So we were chatting about thisa little bit.
You take a high lofted golfclub, you take up a lot of golf
balls, so we have one thingthat's going to make the golf
ball go high, but we have a golfball that isn't designed to
launch high right.
So for anybody out there who'snot used to playing a ballada or
can't remember it, that balladaused to have to sizzle close to

(53:26):
the ground right, that old kindof out and up ball flight.
So the launch angle had to becrazy, crazy down.
So what do we see from a lot ofthat era of players?
We see a lot of knee driveclose to the ground.
We see a lot of leg angle quoteunquote leg angle, radial
deviation, whatever you want tokind of talk about and we see a
lot of trapping motion.
Well, we play a golf ball nowthat's designed to be launched

(53:48):
straight up in the air, right.
We play lower lofted golf clubs, right.
So now those things that wekind of color our conception or
our belief about a golf swing,they kind of no longer apply.
Now, that's not to say that thegym flicks of the world and
whatnot were wrong.
Golf my way or whatever by Jack, like it's not wrong, it's just
no longer applicable.
So up here we play a lot ofhockey.

(54:08):
I don't, I don't even know howto skate.
I'm a terrible Canadian.
But you know, talk to people,I'm a Canadian, I can't skate.
I know, right, I'm a basketballand baseball guy, I don't know.
So you know, when you used toplay a wood stick, you had to
hit the ice like an inch behindthe puck, right.
So you take these older schoolguys in the 80s and they were
hitting wood sticks close to thepuck.

(54:29):
Now you take a composite stickand apparently again I'm using
good hockey players as myanalogy here they take a
composite stick and they hit theice about a foot behind the
puck.
Okay Now, so they've changedone component of the delivery
system.
They changed the clubessentially, right.
Now imagine changing the puckas well.
That delivery system would haveto then go through another
radical kind of change.
And that's where we're at withgolf books.

(54:51):
We have lower COGs, we have astronger loss, we have different
shafts and we play a golf ballthat's designed to launch 180
degrees differently than what itused to be then.
So the golf swing has to bemodernized.
So a lot of the time when I getguys kind of my age and above
who played with the Ladas, it'slike okay, well, we have to
modernize the golf swing, whichtakes to your point of like myth

(55:13):
busting A ton of.
What I do is just understanding.
Okay, this is what I think.
Okay, you're actually doingwhat you think.
I want to have 90% of mypressure on my lead foot when I
hit the golf ball.
Okay, that's not what I see fromthe best players in the world,
but you're doing it and you'restruggling because you're doing
it right.
You weigh more at impact thanyou did in any point during your

(55:35):
downswing, body weight wise,and it's mostly concentrated on
your lead foot.
So really bad recipe for yourback.
So we see a lot more backinjuries in the 80s and 90s than
we do today.
We'll balance that first kindof excluded.
It's like, yeah, you'reaccomplishing exactly what you
want to do, but your concept'soff, so we have to go ahead and
just modernize myth bust acouple of things Maybe.

(55:56):
I want pressure to accelerateoff that lead foot a little bit
more, to get that player to workupwards a little bit more.
Which pulls the handle up withshallows AOA, which launches the
golf ball up in the air, andall of a sudden they go from
these trappy kind of 60 foothigh draws to these nice 105
foot apex flight of things thatgo 25 yards further.
Didn't add any speed, consciousspeed.

(56:16):
We didn't add any effort tocreate more speed, we allow that
athlete to work better.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Horse plate would.
In my opinion, horse platewould be absolutely worthless
without a launch monitor, Likeif you were just standing out on
the.
Well, the fun thing is is like Ican't, and you know this
because you do it too.
But you know, literally I'm inMichigan and we have a ton of
hockey guys up here and I'malways the guy complaining about
left-handed hockey players.
And it's like you know, whenyou have knives on your feet you

(56:42):
can't create any pork or youfall on your face.
These guys are massivehorizontals because at your
point they slap the ice waybefore the puck.
So you know, low point doesn'treally matter for those guys
Like right.
So, long story short, you know,it's amazing to me, like how
you watch one of these guys liketee off and just smack the heck
out of one with a little bit oftorque for the first time in

(57:02):
their life and a little bit ofrotation, right.
And then the next thing, youknow it's like they look up at
you and like, man, that's goingto be good when we can like
swing hard at that.
And you look at, you know the,the pub speed.
I like to look at pub speed.
With these guys with ball speedyou can manipulate in a lot of
different ways.
But you know, club speed isjust raw, raw horsepower, right.
And it's like you look at thatand it's like, oh, it's up by a
mile or so.
Well, I didn't feel like I didanything, and the analogy that I

(57:25):
always use with these guys islike, hey, if we went over to
our gym here and put 200 poundson the bench press, you know you
might do it three or four timesand that's great.
But if I put the same exact 200pounds on a leg press, we're
going to be here for two weekswatching you do this Right.
So, like you know, when you usethe leg, you know I eat the
ground.
But when you use the legs, allof a sudden you know it the

(57:48):
effort level let's call itreally seems to drop because
you're not using the smallermuscle chains, you're actually
using the big ones.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
For sure, and you know watching players, you know
the best compliment I get paidall the time is that.
You know I feel like I feelmore athletic.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
Perfect.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
That's the best compliments that somebody can
pay me, because what they'vebeen doing, like maybe it works,
maybe it doesn't, whatever.
But when we get them to move ina fashion that allows them to
kind of reach their untappedpotential, oftentimes it just
feels more athletic, right, andI'm like well, good golf to
sport, Right.
We maybe haven't always talkedgolf as a sport and you know, I
think it's really important.
That's where I think thebifurcation is coming.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
Ryan, I'm so happy you said that because I was
going to forget to get to itwith you.
But, like you know, I thinkthat that is like they talk
about the ball and I don'treally want to get into that
because that's something wayabove our pay grades that they
don't listen to us about.
But you know, I think thebifurcation of golf is here.

(58:46):
I think it's already here, andI think what you're seeing is
that the bifurcation kind offalls on the line of is golf a
game or is golf a sport?
And you know a lot of peoplethat you work with.
I would say probably 99.9% ofthe people that you work with
they're playing a sport man.
They're here, they're committed, they want to get better,

(59:06):
they're paying a premium fortheir coaching experience
because you're not cheap, norshould you be.
You're very good at what you do.
Your technology is veryexpensive, same with me.
So you know they're coming intothis from this sport perspective
and honestly, man, I think thatso much of golf has been a game
for so long for so many peoplethat they don't really realize

(59:27):
that you could even train it inthe way that you would train in
a sport fashion.
So you know, I think that that'sreally where people get a
little bit confused, because Idon't really think that the
quote, unquote standard golflesson from the guy on the back
of the range really fits in thatsport model, because at the

(59:48):
Olympic level, when they trainathletes to show up and win
medals, they talk about thethings we've talked about, they
talk about nutrition, they talkabout sleep, they talk about
strain, they talk about recovery, they talk about all these
things that are massivelyimportant to the human being so
that the human being can performthe sport.
And like that's where I reallythink, man, that we're able to
help people is to go from thisvery kind of cluttered and

(01:00:12):
nobody cares because it's a game, to really kind of slimming
down some of those thoughtprocesses and maybe making them
a little bit more succinct.
And to your point, if we canget the highway with less
traffic in it and the system's alittle more free and clear to
run, hey, man, what do you know?
When there's less traffic onthe 105, you drive a hell of a
lot faster.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
I don't know 100% right, and I mean to talk about
it being a game or a sport, likeif a player wants to treat it
as a game, they want to go andhave just a nice walk in a park
and they want to shoot 95, man,like you don't have to train
like an athlete, go ahead, goahead.
Like I'm not going to judgesomebody's motivation here
playing the game.
Am I going to work with thatplayer?
No, because what I'm going todo isn't really applicable to

(01:00:54):
them, right?
And that's where, like you know, most of the time I've got
sub-five handicaps in my studiobecause they know what I do.
It's a congruent kind of thingand people will get a whole lot
better.
Doesn't mean I can't help a guywho shoots 95.
I can't.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
Am I going to be interested in that if that
player is?

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
not going to be a sport.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
Why?
Let's think of this.
You help everybody.
Okay, let's get that clear.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
You help everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
Yeah, but you know why you don't have the same
success with the guy that's a 15that you have with the guy
that's a five.
Let's raise it that way.
Yeah, know why you don't havethe same success with the 15?

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
No, Well, I would say I have success.
But what do you think?

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
You don't have the same level of success with the
15 that you do the five For sure, right.
And the reason is really simplethe five knows what's up and
the five is there to learn andaccept what you have to say and
implement change.
And here's the difference thefive, if you give him a drill to

(01:01:56):
do, when you see him nextWednesday practicing before his
lesson, he's doing the drill.
And the 15 won't do the drillmore than two or three swings
before they declare that theygot it.
And like, the thing that alwaystracks me up is I know they're
handicapped based off this alone.
When they ask me after, like Isaid, they get this big

(01:02:17):
evaluation.
We do all these things.
I put them on, let them warm upon Trackman.
So I got those shots onTrackman.
I've got sports box, I've gotplates, I've got everything,
dude, and we do all of it.
And they're just foaming at themouth.
What's the easy answer?
What's been holding me back allthis time?
Do they think it's one thinglike everybody?
Right, because it's a 15.

(01:02:37):
Hey man, look at all this andwhat I think is actually going
to be our best course of actionis actually think we ought to
get your posture put together.
Oh, no man, no, no, no, itcan't be that man.
No, no, no.
Let's talk like angulardisplacement.
Dude, we don't need to talkangular displacement.
We need to talk about how farforward your sternum is of your

(01:02:58):
center of mass and why you can'tget your facet joints in your
back to let your spine extend,like that's what we actually
need to do today.

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
For sure.
You cannot move the graphs onswing cat or you can't move
faster or more freely from poorposition, from poor anatomical
structure.
Man like you're sunk.
You sunk your ship before yousailed out of Harvard and you
have to be able to at least putthe body in a functional
position.
Now, that doesn't meaneverybody has to be in the same
position.
Oh, has to be functional forthe athlete right.

(01:03:29):
So the one that I always liketo talk about and if anybody
watched the Canadian Open outthere, you would have seen a
little bit of my fingerprints,which are actually funny enough
Scott Cokes's fingerprints, mybuddy Scott, I always like to
give credit, I love.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
Scott.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
When Nick would address the golf ball right and
he was on TV for a long time theleft arm would hang as far the
left humorous bones of the upperarm bone would hang as far
outward as he can before hegrips the golf ball, because
that is an opener.
It causes pronation of the leadarm after he changes direction
of the golf swing, which allowshim to not hit it to the left.
So part of his pre-shy routineis hang that thing over.

(01:04:03):
Now, if I don't do that withhim, he still sneaks it left
from time to time.
He has to be very precise ofthat position of that bone in
order to create the golf shot atthat level.
Most people have no concept ofwhere their humorous or their
upper arm bones are in theirgolf swing at set up and we see
that all the time throughoutside steepening guillotine
type of planes.

(01:04:24):
Is that humorous that the trailarm humorous is up and out.
It's internally rotated network.
Now a lot of players when wesee that they've actually
rotated it inwards at set up.
This does not work.
It just straight up doesn'twork.
So we have to be able.
Oh shit, okay, hold on.
Sorry, michael, one sec, sorry.
We have to make sure that thatplayer is going to put

(01:04:48):
themselves in a position thatallows them to perform the task
that they want Absolutely, andthat's the real key.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
And if we don't get that?

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
structure right, then movement doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (01:05:01):
But that, once again, going deep and I don't mean
deep in regard to this is sodeep that it can't be usable.
But it's called doing your jobas your coach and actually
understanding the puzzle thatyou're looking at.
When it comes to and this iswhere it gets interesting People
always say, well, if I hadTiger as a client, I'd be a

(01:05:21):
great coach.
And I guess if you're basingyour results off your player's
successes, then yeah, you wouldbe a great coach if you were
Tiger's coach.
But at the end of the day, manpeople say that all the time,
but I watch coaches all the timeget with better players and
freeze, because it gets harder.
And the better they are, man,the harder it gets to coach them

(01:05:41):
, because it's not this lowhanging fruit that you could
just see a mile away or from theother side of the driving range
.
And that's why there's guyslike you and guys like myself,
who are not in the lab but kindof in the lab behind the scenes,
really digging and teasing allof this out.
Because, to your point, man, Ijust don't think that you're

(01:06:01):
going to be able to create theperformance that we're seeing
currently without really takingthese deep dives with these guys
and I hate to say it, but evenfor the guy that's a 10
listening to this, you're notgoing to get better through
technique alone.
At a certain point in golf, likethe technique doesn't really
like all those guys can hit it,like every one of those guys on

(01:06:24):
tour can hit it, every one ofthose guys can nip one, every
one of those guys like they can.
They might not be able to do itwhen they need to do it under
the gun, and that's whatseparates them out there, right,
but it doesn't mean that theydon't have the core competency
to do it right.
So, like, they all have thephysical skills and the skill
sets to accomplish the goals outthere At a certain point.

(01:06:46):
Man, like you know, I teach alot of guys who are good players
and you know they go on golftrips and have fun.
But you know they're likecalling me and texting me man, I
play like shit today.
And I'm like, well, aren't youon a golf trip?
And they're like, yeah, I'mlike, well, how many beers and
bourbons did you have last night?
Oh, you know.
And it's like they don't eventhink to equate the fact that
they're so hungover that thatmight, you know have a conflict

(01:07:07):
on their golf.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
By the way, your Kentucky is showing with that
bourbon.
There you go, you know we youknow for sure.
Like you slept for four hourshungover, you got to the golf
course, you didn't warm up, youhit no putts, you three putt of
the first three greens becauseyou didn't know what the speed
was.
You shot 84 and you're normallyshooting 81.
Okay, yeah, like makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
I'm doing the inner deviation, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
Like, makes total sense, right?
So, yeah, I mean, and that'swhere, like, that performance,
that performance stuff is soimportant, right, and you know,
credit to all the coaches outthere who are getting the best
out of their athletes, and Ithink there's a lot of really
great coaches.
From an instructor standpointthough, right, which is what I
would call myself I'm not reallya coach, I'm an instructor it
really is just okay.
When the environment changes,what changes, right?

(01:07:50):
So, like, I see players who cando everything I want them to do
, and then when that right toleft wind kicks up, they don't
trust it.
But cool man, we havetechnology that we can actually
apply wind on to see what theoutcome of the golf club, the
golf shot, is when that right towind kind of comes in, right or
right to left, when it comes in, and you know, we can start to
say, okay, well, when thathappens, you don't move the same

(01:08:11):
way, because you start to get alittle scared, you start to
guide it.
I need you to aim it here andtrust exactly what you built.
And you know that is, I guess,a little bit on the coaching
side, but it's still on thetechnical bucket as far as I'm
concerned because we're stilltrying to repeat the technical
side of things.
But it's oftentimes theenvironment that changes.
And when the environmentchanges, whether it's you know,

(01:08:32):
the breathing gets shallower,the heart rate goes up, the
pressure amounts, the you knowthe wind changes.
You know I've got water on theright, I don't want to hit it
over there.
When that environment changes,we have to know, okay, where am
I aiming, and can I do the samething over and over and over
again, and can I get out ofletting the environment dictate
my movement?
I need to move regardless ofthe environment, and if we can

(01:08:54):
get the player to do that, man,I'm going to be a drunken like
you're.
Good to go at that point.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
I say it all the time , but I love the line from the
departed that Jack Nicholson hasI don't want to be a product of
my environment, I want myenvironment to be a product of
me.
I love that line.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
For sure.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
I've said that to a lot of players on the golf
course before man, and you'reexactly right.
It's like you know, if youunderstand what you do in a
simulated environment off of aflat lie, okay.
And now the lie is, you know,not flat how does that affect
the?
Ball flight.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
Hey, where's the wind ?
How does that affect the?

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
ball flight.
Okay, well, your job is to getset up and understand how that
lie is going to affect yoursetup and ball flight.
And then to your point man,you're hitting the same shot you
hit in the simulation, it'sjust you have to aim it
different.
And it's just like if you'regoing to sit there and you know,
look at a pitch shot and try tofigure out, like, do I want to

(01:09:48):
open or close the face?
Well, guess what, you betternot line your feet quote unquote
square if you're changing wherethe face is pointing, because,
like, that's kind of importantin terms of pitching and
chipping and getting this ballon the target line.
And it's like you know, it'sjust understanding, I think,
what we can do with the plates.
That's so much different is, Ithink we actually can add, in my

(01:10:12):
opinion, if you think of thegolf swing as being, you know,
three thirds as a whole, youknow, I think, that the ground
reaction forces is close to twothirds of this equation, man, in
terms of what we're doing withthe ground, and I get it, man,
we've been struggling with thisthird throw and I'm just, you
know, round in numbers but likewe've been struggling at trying
to explain why this thirdhappens the way it happened for

(01:10:34):
a long, long time.
But you've seen it enough andI've seen it enough to where,
when you add the two thirds tothe third and you can start
looking at the whole freakingstory, man, like people can like
get better quick.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean to put a bow kind of onthe on the force plate kind of a
conversation is.
You know when, when a playerunderstands that their pelvis
needs to move right, your pelvishas to move in your golf swing.
We can.
We can sway it and slide itlaterally, we can thrust it
forward and backwards and we canelevate it up and down.
It's the only direction thatcan move.
It cannot move in any of thosedirections without ground
contact Right.

(01:11:07):
So I did the analogy I use if Igo up to block a spike in
volleyball, I go straight up inthe air.
I can then not choose to turnmy pelvis Right.
I can swing my arms to one sideand my pelvis will rotate the
other direction, but that's abyproduct of my arms moving my
upper body.
I can't go straight up and thenturn.
So we picture like MJ back inthe day doing his little spin

(01:11:27):
moves or John Moran these days,and they do a 360 and they kind
of hang in the air.
They started that twerk againstthe ground before they left.
They don't jump straight up andthen turn.
So if the pelvis needs to move.
In the golf swing the feet haveto move the pelvis.
So one of the conversations Ihave with people all the time is
in 3D especially with like acave ass in these older school

(01:11:49):
kind of systems is we would lookat pelvis, thorax, lead arm and
golf club and out of thosethree components, absolutely the
pelvis moves first for mostgood players, right In full game
golf shots.
Well, what we know now is thatthe pelvis can't move.
It's not the first thing thatmoves, the feet are the first
thing that moves right.
So we have to start to tie whatwe're doing against the ground

(01:12:11):
for the pelvis.
So I always tell people I'm likethe last thing I ever want a
player to do is rotate.
I never wanted to have a playertry to rotate.
I see all kinds of like anybodyout there listening that's
probably in the higher handicapbuckets.
You're trying to rotate.
That causes the steepness, thatcauses the out to in.
That's causes a bunch of thestuff Because you're rotating
too quickly at the wrong time ata sequence whatever.

(01:12:33):
Instead I want to act more likea baseball player who strides
into towards second base, pushesthe ground towards second base,
which causes rotation right.
Whether we're doing that on theY, the X, whatever, doesn't
matter, but we're creating aforce that causes the body to
rotate.
It sounds a lot like semantics,but it's not.
It's not.
I'm not trying to rotate, I'mcausing rotation to occur.

(01:12:54):
Yeah, when I get players tostop trying to rotate and focus
more on what their feet do thanwhat their pelvis does or what
their chest does, we start tosee more open on them like we
see, with two or players.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):
I'm on the blackboard with people constantly, man
Like, constantly explaining howthe foot pronates and supernates
.
Because you're right, that isthe thing that moves first and
it's amazing, man, at what.
Like you said, you know I'veseen some videos of some players
who are obviously really goodplayers and that left knee is so
bent at impact.
It's unreal and you're likethat guy must be late as hell.

(01:13:26):
But, to your point, when youthrow it on the plate, you still
see that they're driving thatvertical force at the right time
.
So it's like, okay, well,obviously that leg is still
pretty well next to the ground,that left foot, and I think that
you know for so many people, toyour point, they're so consumed
with moving the golf club andgetting the golf club to quote

(01:13:46):
unquote rotate around their bodythat they just completely lose
sight of the fact that thisisn't, I mean, it's just a mess
in terms of what they're doingwith their body and they're not
really creating any of thatrotation at all.
They're creating that spin out.
You know that we see that allthe time when people try to
rotate, they just spin out likecrazy.
But in terms of seeing anykinds of real force being

(01:14:07):
applied to the ground.
It's pretty minimal.

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
For sure, for sure.
And you know, one thing thatI'll never kind of tell people
to do is where to swing the golfclub from.
I'm going to allow movementbecause when we look at that
time that it takes from top toimpact, we're in such a narrow
window to move back off the bed.
I can't move in my old kind ofshitty pattern and think, okay,
well, I got to move my arms inthe club over here Because, yeah

(01:14:30):
, you can maybe do it on therain with no consequence.
You can maybe do it by yourselfout on the golf course at 6pm,
playing by yourself, right.
But going out to the first teeon Saturday morning with your
buddies and you know the peoplewatching behind you and all
these groups up on the driverrange, and all of a sudden it
doesn't work anymore.
You haven't found it and that'sbecause you haven't paid
attention to how you move andhow that influences the golf
club.
You've moved the same way.

(01:14:51):
You always have early, extendedsliding, swaying, whatever it
is, and you're moving that golfclub independently.
When you lose that connectionand that ability, right, we get
sunk.
Now, if I can create movementthat causes the golf club to
move into the plane that I wantit to move in.
Well, now, when I'm standingover the golf ball, I got to
think about is what I'm doingeither at my feet or in my
movement pattern, and then thegolf club just magically finds

(01:15:11):
its home, and that's a reallyfreeing feeling for a lot of
players.

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
So it's all about movement and not the golf If
you're a 15 plus and I'll behonest, I get a lot of that I
get a lot of 15 plus.
Still, you know, I get a lot ofpeople that kind of you know
are local people where myfacility is and they don't
really realize what this placeis and they just kind of walk
through the door and they'relike I'm getting the golf lesson
and they like come in and I geta good amount of that, man, and
I love it.

(01:15:35):
Because you know, the firstthing I'm doing with a plus you
know a 15 or higher is I'mtaking the golf club out of
their hands.
It's the very first thing I do.
I get rid of the golf club andI start showing them how to
pivot that body right, how tocreate some extension in the
spine.
It's not a bad thing, weactually need to to create a
healthy motion.
Like start really showing themhow to move their body, man,
because what I try to helppeople understand is like you

(01:15:58):
don't really have the trainingor the concept for how to move
this golf club across time andspace, but you do have really
good concepts and really goodpatterns for moving your body
across time and space, becauseyou've been doing that your
whole life.
So, like getting people tostart with what they understand
in terms of how their body movesthroughout the golf swing is

(01:16:20):
way more advantageous to thenadd the golf club after they
understand the body, becausethey feel and interpret that so
much better than this golf clubthat they don't have any clue
what the heck it's supposed todo.

Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
For sure.
I'm convinced that if we calledthe golf swing a golf motion,
everybody would be better atgolf.

Speaker 1 (01:16:35):
I agree.

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
Right, you wouldn't be worried about where the shaft
is pitching and where the faceis, and you're not thinking back
here, you're thinkingintrinsically or internally and
you're moving to move that golfclub.
Instead of moving the golf cluband happenstance moving the way
that you kind of have ingrainedin your, in your movement
pattern.
So you know, I, if anybody cantake anything away from that
start concentrating on what thebody does and forget about the

(01:16:57):
golf club.
It behaves like a well-behaveddog.
If I move, well, that dogfollows right beside me.
Right, I agree?

Speaker 1 (01:17:02):
And you know I've asked you before.
They may go everywhere, likeface to pat.
Like face to pat isn'thappening on its own.
Like you have to create a faceto path relate.
Like it doesn't just like gonegative or positive.
Like you have to do somethingto create that.
Like it doesn't naturally wantto flip that way.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
And you don't have time to try to swear that thing
up, man.
So that's where that anatomicalstructures come in in our
movement pattern.
If we dial those things in, man, those things tighten up pretty
quickly.

Speaker 1 (01:17:27):
So they do.
Man.
Well, look at that.
Like that almost sounds like weplanned this and had like a
strip and like came to a nicelittle finish, Like that was
nice we did good there.
I want to really take the timeto thank you, ryan.
Like this has been really goodman.
I've really enjoyed it.
I appreciate everything, theinsights you shared.
I don't think we gave younearly enough credit.

(01:17:47):
Like obviously the successwouldn't be incredible.
That's a cool story.
I think probably when they dothe year end stuff, I would be
shocked if the Canadian Openwasn't a top three story from
the tour this year, because itwas and I don't want to take
anything away from Nick at allhe obviously got the W but you
know it was a good showing forCanadians that week.
You know like that was itwasn't.

(01:18:08):
You know Nick obviously winningwas huge, but like it's a great
showing for Team Canada.

Speaker 2 (01:18:13):
So being our mission again.

Speaker 1 (01:18:15):
Obviously I'm always pulling hard for my brother.
It's just a little up north.
So I want to make sure that youdefinitely get credit for that.
Ryan does an amazing jobputting stuff out there online,
across social media.
You can find him at Ryan HollyGolf.
You can find his website RyanHolly Golf.
Definitely worth giving afollow, give a listen.
Anytime he's talking aboutground reaction forces, you can

(01:18:37):
bet he knows what he's doing,because that is definitely the
one thing that he has masteredand is an expert in and does an
amazing job sharing theinformation with people.
So, with that said, do you gotany plugs you need to get in or
anything, are you good?

Speaker 2 (01:18:50):
I'm not man.

Speaker 1 (01:18:51):
All good.

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
I appreciate that and you know, hopefully this helps.
You know a couple of people outthere and you know start to
focus on some of the stuff thatthey think is more in your
control than what the golf clubis doing Absolutely Well.

Speaker 1 (01:19:04):
The cool thing, too, is is I think we're aiming maybe
at some point in the nearfuture, ryan and myself are
going to try to get our forceplates together and we're going
to see if we can get them tobreed, because if we can get
that breed we can make somemoney, but they're expensive to
buy out, right.
So we're going to see what wecan do, but whether we can get
them to give us little babyforce plates or not, I think

(01:19:26):
we're going to try to do somepretty cool events together in
the near future.
So if you're interested ingetting on the Swing Paddle of
Steel Motion plate, you canreach out to Ryan, you can reach
out to myself, but we'redefinitely looking at trying to
put together maybe some eventsthat aren't necessarily where we
generally are, so that otherpeople also can get out so can
get access to this amazingtechnology.
So, with that said, thank youso much to Ryan for taking the

(01:19:48):
time once again, and Iappreciate everybody listening
to this episode.
As addition to the rebrand, wealso will be sharing the video
this season and that video willbe posted to the Measured Golf
YouTube channel, so you'll beable to find this entire
interview with Ryan on ourYouTube site.
So make sure to subscribe tothat page and to like this video
, and please leave lots ofquestions down in the comments

(01:20:10):
and I guarantee you that Ryan,myself or both will probably get
back to you to answer yourquestion.
So thanks again to Ryan.
Thanks to everybody forlistening and make sure to hit
that subscribe and like buttonUntil next time.
Keep that.

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