New Frontiers in Golf: Bridging Curiosity, Science, and Skill

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured
Golf Podcast, where I, michaelDutro, am fortunate and
privileged to be joined by someof the best minds in the game
and we talk all things golf.
Sometimes it's golf swings,sometimes it's approach to
playing golf, sometimes it mighteven be something that doesn't
seem nearly as related to golfas breathing, but sometimes

(00:24):
that's where we wind up, and, inour search for talking about
all things that lead to golfperformance, I really wanted to
have a guest that I look up to alot, has certainly been a
mentor to me during my shortcareer and somebody that I
really think brings a lot ofvalue to the world of golf
instruction and even things thatmaybe wouldn't be labeled as

(00:46):
instruction but also still movethe needle forward.
And that person I'm talkingabout is the man in the shadows
but a lot of us are aware of,but none other than dr mark bolt
.
Mark, we're thrilled to havethe.
Uh, I've looked forward to thisfor a long time.
I've been a great admirer, sothank you so much for joining us
, all the way from spain, Ibelieve um well, first of all,

(01:07):
thank you, michael, for theinvitation.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
You're very welcome.
I'm in portugal, is you and?

Speaker 1 (01:10):
I oh okay perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
I mean, yeah, I mean I'll let you.
I'm sure my spanish friendswould be deeply offended by, but
they're very closely.
Obviously, portugal is aneighbor of spain, so I'm in
lisbon, which is, if you havenbeen, it's a beautiful place.
I'm currently there with thegolf program for a couple of
days with their players, andit's one of my favorite places
to visit Portugal.
It really is spectacular.
So, but anyway, it's great tobe here and looking forward to

(01:35):
kind of speaking with you.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
Yeah, I saw a social media post earlier today with
you over there and I apologizeabout messing that up off the
jump, but I saw where you were.
It looked like using I believeit's your bowl 3D capture with
that player and I think maybe Idon't do this with a lot of my
guests, but I think this wouldbe great to do with you.
But what is it you're overthere doing, how are you doing

(01:59):
it and what kind of tools areyou using to kind of work with
this player?
Just so people have a betterunderstanding of kind of what
you do?

Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah.
So I think this is a context isso valuable and you know,
without context it becomes verychallenging.
So this particular group is agroup of kind of collegiate
based players that areadolescent golfers.
So much of what I'm doing withthese particular players
yesterday, today and tomorrowmorning is kind of really

(02:28):
looking at kind of how they'removing and really kind of why
they move the way they do.
So.
Adolescence is one of many,many reasons why it's such a
such a disruptive phase we gothrough.
Look at the three phases ofadolescence, kind of 0 to 7, 7
to 14, 1 to 21.
It's kind of considered thekind of three main phases within
those kind of growth cycles alittle later for girls, kind of
22, 23 for the females and sowhat.

(02:49):
What I'm looking at isinitially kind of how they move
and in some ways that's.
It's kind of like the kind ofwhat, why and how.
Let's look at kind of what youdo through obviously the um, the
system that I use.
Then we look at why you do whatyou do.
That can really take us in manydifferent directions.
Examples again just whereyou're at for that growth cycle.
It may be more the beliefs wehave.

(03:11):
So we know, within physiology,our beliefs drive our behaviors.
So movement is a form ofbehavior.
It's a very expressive form ofbehavior, movement.
So physiology is very muchbehavior driven, but our beliefs
very much drive those behaviors.
So, to give you an example thismorning, this really applies to
all of us.
We all have beliefs which wehold very closely dear to us,

(03:32):
based on whatever who you'vebeen exposed to, who you
perceive to be really especiallyif you're younger, a developing
player Excuse me, sorry,michael that you really kind of
looked up to as being the reallyum kind of revered human in
many ways.
And so in this particularplayer's case he was just
exploring that almost um, um,why he chose to believe, um, the

(03:58):
way he saw the world that way.
So in many ways what he wastrying to do was actually create
an issue is the kind of shortanswer behind that.
So the concepts he had based onthe belief systems that he had
inherited through someone else.
So look at beliefs, younormally inherit them rather
than develop them.
So beliefs you normally inheritas a younger, kind of
prepubescent in many cases youbelieve based on herence and

(04:19):
that kind of stuff, and so hevery much saw the world that way
.
So therefore, what he wastrying to do um create the issue
and he had a stress fracture inhis spine which is not to
digress too much.
I mean we've almost normalizedum that feeling bad is normal.
We've almost now normalizedthat you have to have something.
You know what do you have?
I have a stress fracture.
I have a wrist issue.

(04:40):
That's not normal.
Normal was getting to the 90s,being medication free and being
um um surgically free.
In many ways that's normal.
But we kind of now normalizebeing feeding unwell or feeding
having stress fractures isnormal behavior.
It's absolutely not normalbehavior.
So anyway, so to kind ofbookend that part of discussion,

(05:01):
this guy um developed a stressfracture through a belief system
that he was trying to move in acertain way based on a value he
inherited from whoever it wasmany years ago.
So the bookend is he now has astress fracture in his spine
which is not normal behavior.
And then other players forexample, we just looked at the
last player I saw today you lookat say, within growth, that the

(05:22):
spine segmentally is the lastsegment to grow.
So we get these kind of big,long arms and legs and
relatively speaking, the spineis the last main skeletal
segment to develop.
So in essence he has long arms,long legs and still a somewhat
prepubescent spine.
So much of his movement isbeing influenced by this

(05:43):
somewhat disproportionateskeletal system he has through
the growth cycle.
So that will obviously catch upas he kind of gets in towards
the back end of that kind ofgrowth cycle.
So there's many reasons why wedo what we do.
That's two of many examples,slightly kind of booking in some
ways the influence of growth, abelief system.
And then really what we look toestablish then Mike is okay,

(06:05):
based on what we know.
So, okay, we, you know, we kindof established how you move.
We then kind of start toexplore why you move that way.
It then comes back to well,okay, based on what you now know
, how can you improve this?
So then I've we very much startto then look at, okay, how can
you?
You being the keyword hit nothow can I, how can you now
improve this um?

(06:26):
So then we start to really goto that more, the exploration
phase of of learning.
How do we start to explore inmany formats?
Explore conceptually, uh,explore um within movement and
explore through training, say,for example, what the guys would
do in the gym, explore more ontheir behaviors, for example.
So you know, we know, again,physiology is very much behavior

(06:48):
driven.
Um, you can't out train a poorbehavior, like you can't out
supplement poor nutrition, thatkind of approach to the
physiology.
Um, so that would be the kindof the very course um answer to
that question let's look at whatyou do, let's establish why you
do it and then, once we'veestablished why you do what you
do, um, so you're looking for,like the what's driving this.

(07:10):
In science they're calledmechanisms what's the mechanism
behind x?
So we look at the what's,what's the true driver of why
you move and behave that way,and then, based on what we know,
how can you then resolve this?
So, as far as the system I use,as you mentioned, very kind,
it's my own software system, sothat I developed back in the

(07:32):
early part of 2010, 2011, as itwas now.
So the last kind, of 30 years.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Can I ask a quick question about?

Speaker 2 (07:39):
your system.
It doesn't need to be quick.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
I mean no offense by this question because, I've
gotten in trouble with this onebefore, but is your system
similar to the AMM system?

Speaker 2 (07:51):
So AMM was software.
So look at, say, stephen, philCheatham, who were the
developers of AMM, that was asoftware system.
So they used similar hardware,the Polyhemus hardware, albeit a
different Polyhemus system wayback then.
So AMM, so Advanced MotionMeasurement, I think it was
called a measurement of motion.
So apologies to Steve if I'vemixed that up they were the
software developers, obviouslynow used by TPI, so it's kind of

(08:14):
TPI 3D.
I think it was still called ormay still be called through,
obviously the guys in TPI.
So my software is, you couldargue it's an expansion of and
it's an evolution of AMM, whatit was back in, say, the early
2000s.
So AMM, developed so well byPhil and Steve, obviously then

(08:37):
ceased to trade.
I think it was in 2015, 2014,.
I think it was so.
Again, if I'm off on my dates Iapologize.
Like 2015, 2014, I think it wasso.
Again, if I'm off on my dates,I apologize.

Speaker 1 (08:47):
But so they were the software developers, rather than
say that the hardware umproducers, who are a company
called polymers one thing that Iwould like to give you a
massive compliment on when itcomes to your software and, as a
matter of fact, I'm I'mspeaking a little bit out loud
right now, but I've used a, andI don't want to.
I don't want to say the name,cause I don't want to compare
and contrast, but I use adifferent uh markerless, uh

(09:09):
phone based uh capture system,uh, to do a little bit of
looking under the hood with somemeasurements and things like
that.
And the thing that they doreally well is they create an
avatar, and I'm a massive fan ofthe avatar because I've shown
enough people videos ofthemselves swinging a golf club
and they're totally distractedwith how they look overweight or

(09:31):
whatever the case may be, andthat totally throws off anything
I can say.
So I like that the avatar takesthe focus off of judgment in
terms of how they appear in thevideo.
They appear in the video, butthe thing that you do so well is
that you actually port, youvisualize and show the actual
skeleton of the human withinyour software, and I've done a

(09:54):
lot of training and work with DrJoe Lacaze from Rotex Motion
and, like Joe always says, canyou point to it?
And he's always referencing theskeletal system and when he in
his opinion, when you'recoaching other people, you need
to be able to point to the thingyou're asking them to change
how it moves.

(10:14):
So with your software and the3D representation of the
skeletal system, I really thinkthat's a home run and I think
that that's a point ofdistinction, because it makes it
much more accurate when we'reshowing thing, showing people
how things move, because we'reshowing them the actual
anatomical part yeah, I mean itneeds to be truly representative

(10:36):
of what they do and how theymove.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
So again, if they can't relate to this and they
don't see meaning, they look atit, go.
But that's just not me, it's avery coarse representation.
I think it just devalues thentheir experience.
And you look at, say you knowwe are, through design,
visual-based learners.
Over half of our brain isallocated to vision and movement
.
So how the brain has evolvedthrough since kind of day one of
civilization is allocated tovision and movement.

(11:02):
So there's kind of clues withinour brain as to why we are
visual based learners.
So in many ways how youperceive what you see but then
very much influence then you tomove in, um, whatever way it is
we're discussing.
So if you have an animation nowcalled meshes is the is the
very precise definition, uh, soit's called a mesh, um, if the

(11:23):
mesh is not realistic to how youand I see how you move, then it
just, I think, devalues andthen removes meaning from the
experience.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, no, I think it's really good and I
definitely think the industry ismoving more into a world where
there's less standing therewithout any kind of measuring
device and saying that lookspretty good.
And now the young people who arecoming to you and coming to me,
they're wanting to see thisdata and they're wanting to see

(11:54):
how that data influences thegolf ball.
Because, at the end of the day,we're still teaching a game and
we're having a very in-depthconversation about how we view
the game, but it is still a game, and what we have to be able to
do as coaches, in my opinion,is to say, hey, I think you need
to do X, but the reason we'redoing X is so that the golf ball

(12:15):
does Y, and I think we alwayskind of have to bring it back to
helping that athlete get thegolf ball to behave the way they
want it to behave.
And then, where I think youcome in and do a bang-up job or
somebody who's looking at themotion, it's okay.
Well, now they're achieving thetask and they're doing what's
being asked of them, but arethey doing it in a safe and

(12:36):
effective way for them?

Speaker 2 (12:38):
and when you marry those two things, you really
find some really highperformance, and that's what I
love about the approach you taketo it I think it really comes
again, um, kind of back to thatkind of context is when you,
when, when you have um using theexample that the players I've
seen today again, um, it alwaysstarts with how can I help?
How can I help today, whatquestions do you have and how do

(13:00):
you want to use your time today?
And we have this information,player x, how would you like to
use it?
Um, so there always needs to bea question aligned to the
information.
Rather than we have thisinformation, let's try and fit a
question to the information,which is a very, very different
approach.
So for me, it's how do we useinformation the best, answer the
questions you have, reallybased on your experiences, your
observations, the aspirationsyou have, for example, um, so

(13:24):
for me, it's you know, you lookat, really, the role of data is
very defined.
For me, michael just allows amore informed discussion.
We have this data and all itdoes.
It then allows more informeddiscussions based on it's still
the best model is a blank sheetof paper.
You're here, you want to getthere.
How do we kind of fill the gapsin?

(13:44):
Well, this information we havenow allows a much more precise,
a more accurate discussion nowbased on how do we kind of
advance you based on whatever,again, aspirations you have.
But I think again to be mindfuland I always try and provide, as
best I can, a real balance.
That you look at it, there'snever a solution just to trade
in life.
The idea of a solution doesn'texist.

(14:06):
There's always a trade-off,there's a cost of doing business
, always.
So the cost of business in someways with, say, as you say,
some of the younger guys nowcoming through, there's that
lovely trade between knowledgeand know-how and a lot of guys

(14:26):
have wonderful knowledge not,but perhaps don't have the the
comparable know-how.
You know how you use theinformation is still a
tremendous, probably of morevalue.
So you can look at it in manyways.
You and I can frame this.
Would you sooner have someonewith less information but has
tremendous know-how how to useit?
Or a player or, sorry, a coach,with the most advanced system
and don't know how to use it?
I know which one I would soonspend time around.
Um, so it's that lovely tradeyou get between you know, having

(14:50):
the knowledge, which is verymuch the information that we
have, but then having thatknow-how, which is the early
phase of wisdom in some ways.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
But then how do you love this quote?
You're gonna love this quote.
It's an I think it's anamerican quote, but I think it's
right up your alley.
You ready?
Knowledge plus experienceequals wisdom yeah, I mean you
could, you could add many wordsinto that really, um, but that's
kind of what you're talkingabout right is like, yeah, and

(15:19):
that's that's what I think isdifficult, because I'm so glad
you brought this up and I'msorry to jump in there, but I
think what you're talking aboutis something that's very
important.
Players in my opinion, theplayers I've worked with and
I've worked with some very, verygood players players always
think that they need to become acoach, to become a better

(15:39):
player, meaning that they feellike they need to understand
everything to understand whatthey need to do better.
And I feel, like so many youngpeople, they're so used to
having advanced baseball statsand fantasy football stats and
they're so used to this datastream that they think that they
really really really want lotsof data when it comes to their

(16:01):
golf game and their golf swingand their understanding of data
when it comes to their golf gameand their golf swing and their
understanding.
But, to your point, you canunderstand perfectly well how to
execute a golf swing from akinesiology type basis, but if
you've never done it before,you're probably still not going
to shoot even par your firsttime you do it.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah, I mean it really comes back to there's a
something in skill acquisitioncalled de-skilling.
To, um, there's a there's asomething in skill acquisition
called de-skilling, which isvery prevalent in this current
time as you and I speak, whereoften what may happen is the
data gets better, well defined,better, based on what who
defines.
If it's better or not, it's adifferent discussion.
But the player gets worse andthat's very prevalent now.

(16:39):
They're often they might havebetter performance markers,
better movement profiles, forexample, but they just can't
relate to that.
They can't create meaning.
So one of my favorite questionsmay be could you move that way
on the first hour in the OpenChampionship?
No, then is it no meaning?
And there's many, many thiscould take us in many different
directions that you could argue.

(16:59):
True learning is when it'sreconnected to nature.
It's only when it's done in theclosest form to nature.
So how do we keep it as closeto the first year as possible?
So if you can't move that wayat the first year, the open next
year, then there's really novalue doing it now.
Unfortunately, the more we comeaway from nature, the more we
devalue that learning experience.
So that's often when you'll getthe data gets better, but the

(17:21):
play gets worse.
They've you'll get.
The data gets better, but theplay gets worse.
They've been de-skilled throughthe process, so the nervous
system has another layer ofdistraction.
There's more interference, thebrain is even more exhausted,
beliefs get reinforced, often ina very unhelpful way.
So there's a lot of fallout tothat as an approach.
So when I look at more cyberplayers and I actually learned
this um from a very good playerum years ago, really, um, but

(17:48):
the idea of acupuncture, we haveall these different um
acupuncture points in the bodyand he goes to me and that's
great mark, you really have oneneedle.
Where would you put that oneneedle?
My face is such a greatquestion.
So, rather than looking atevery single acupuncture
meridians, as I called within um, within kind of more chinese
medicine, um, where would youput that one needle to provide
the biggest value?

(18:08):
That's what a great question.
You can see why this guy's wona major championship and many
you know ward number one, thatkind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
And that's how those guys still see it what's what?

Speaker 2 (18:17):
what's the single biggest thing today I can do
that gives me the most value.
So there's a big thing.
Years ago, um, it actually cameout of british cycling in 2008
in the in the sole olympics,this idea of marginal gains.
You know, do one percent betterwell, that's great, that, um,
but that was based on alreadybeing an olympic athlete.
So the idea of doing one, youknow, looking at your mattress

(18:39):
and your pillows absolutely oftremendous value based on doing
98 things.
Well, already, if you're doing10% of things great, doing 11%
of things great ain't reallygoing to make much of a
difference.
So I kind of say that manypeople they step over pounds to
pick up pennies.
They leave the big stuff tokind of pick up these small,
pick up the big rocks, not thepebbles in life.
So within physiology you cankind of go into some physiology

(19:03):
now they're called physiologicalbuffers.
So a lot of what you do withinthe first hour of the day, in
the last hour of the day, insome ways helps frame the day.
So if you do certain behaviorsin the morning, it can really
help absorb much of the stressof the day.
You kind of give yourself thisbuffer and very much like in the
evening.
If you do certain behaviors atnight night, it helps mitigate

(19:24):
what you've been exposed tothrough the day.
If you don't frame your daythat way, that can then create
lots of physiological stress.
So all these ideas aroundplayers, I think still in my
experience today, they stillcome back to what's the what's
the single biggest area we canexplore that provides the
biggest value.
And even then I can only reallyum kind of learn these things.

(19:45):
Who've been around players andin long my neck continue that,
um, a big one for me then comesback to we kind of mentioned it,
you know, I think you called itknowledge and experience.
I'd almost expand that and sayit's knowledge alongside how you
experience your exposures wouldbe my add-on to that.
So you've been exposed tocertain things in life and it's
how you chose to remember thoseexposures.

(20:07):
You and I can get exposed tothe same thing.
You you chose to see it in agreat way.
I just associate the poor way.
So in that, really, in someways I'm going to jump around
too much.
So I want to kind of finish thispart of the question.
But it's a bit like the natureversus nurture discussion.
The issue is the word versus.
That's the definition of beingdemonized, polarized.
What side are you on?

(20:27):
It's nature versus um, um?
Nurture?
No, it's not.
It's nature alongside nurture,it's nature alongside what
you've been exposed to and howyou chose to experience those
exposures.
That's how we evolve.
So, as you know, I I look atthis a lot with players.
Michael that golf likes to lookat how to separate, how to

(20:48):
demonize.
I look to see what connectsplayers, a good example being
look at someone like ScottyScheffler.
His football gets all theattention, but what they don't
tell you is the things he does,the same as Rory and Xander,
schauffele and Tiger, forexample.
That's just not a particularlycool story.
So what I look at, warren,players, is what connects all
these players rather than whatseparates them.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
I couldn't agree more .
I couldn't agree more.
That's gold.
That's gold.
That's really good.
You're very kind.
And to go back to your question.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
As I said, in my experience with players, we
could spend, whether it be anhour with the, the younger guys
this trip, or I might spend aday with someone, for example,
um, with a certain player.
It's how do we compress theexperience into three words?
So you look at most phrases um,they're three words long.
So what's the nike phrase?
just do it doesn't say justthink about it, perhaps explore

(21:41):
it.
There's a lot of science behind.
So the audi, you know, forceone dutch technique.
Most of these famous phraseshave three words.
So one of my big approaches ishow do we compress our
experience today into threewords so the brain is more
likely to recall three words onthe first day of port rush next
year.
Then this is going to get bad.

(22:01):
I'm going to get no chance.
That's way too exhaustive onthe brain.
So one of the big things whichI've simply adapted and acquired
through being around theseplayers for so many years is
based on what you and I havediscussed today.
How do you compress that intothree words, left ear down, knee
to ball, whatever, because thatcreates tremendous meaning in a
very playful, very usable, veryrealistic way which you can

(22:26):
perform with rather than yeahyeah, good luck with that as an
approach, but what you're therethere's real.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
I hope people listen to this and maybe re-listen to
this, because there's so muchthere to unpack and the beauty
of coaching and, as data drivenas I can be, or you can be, at
the end of the day, we're reallytalking about, in a way,
digging it out of the dirt andyou know, I I think that a lot

(23:00):
of young people think that theanswer lies on the internet or
through data and, at the end ofthe day, the word that you've
continued to use, that I'vewritten down multiple times and
highlighted a couple of times,so I come back to and the word
that I think best describes you.
I'm going to put you in one wordinstead of three, but the word

(23:20):
that I would use is explore, orto be curious, or to to be OK,
not knowing what the solution is, but comfortable and learning
what it isn't.
And I think that we've reallylost that ability to go out
there with the shag bag of ballsand go, hey, today I'm going to

(23:41):
figure out how to make the ballwork right to left and then,
once I do that, I'm going tomake it high right to left, like
we.
I don't see a lot of young,good junior players who are
willing to go out there and getit wrong to learn how to do it
right.
I see a lot of young people whogo out there and make two or
three mistakes and thenimmediately think they need to
FaceTime me to get the answer tothe problem, and that's not to

(24:05):
your point.
That's just not how we learn.
It would be nice, but it's not.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
I think one of the main priorities, especially
younger people, is you create anenvironment that's very safe to
fail with.
Fail with it, you know, failureis.
Even babies don't see it asfailure.
The adult defines it as failure, not the child.
They see it as the exploration.
It's that kind of you know alot of guys look at everest,
which is the issue.
They try and climb everest.
No, what's the next step neededto climb everest?
So babies take a much moreiterative approach to learning.

(24:32):
What's the next step needed tofeed myself?
Not, I need to feed myself by acertain age.
So I think, um what you said,there's a great value that we I
mean you look at how science.
For me, science has evolved andhas also devolved in some areas
that we now need science toprove that what we knew 50 years
ago was true, which is madnessthe more science evolves, the

(24:53):
more it takes us back to natureand we now need um so, so you
look at it, I'll give you threeexamples of that.
Um john daly knew in the 80s youwant to hit the ball a long way
something, so think about longand fast.
We now need papers in scienceto tell us to hit the ball a
long way, so think about longand fast.
Well, he knew that intuitively.
40 years ago now, gary Playerwore different size shoes.

(25:16):
He knew the value of groundreaction forces.
We now need force plates thathave the influence of ground
reaction forces.
Lee Trevino, the idea of the 3Dflat spot figured out back in
the 60s.
The idea of the long flat spotwas of value as far as being
reliable.
We now need 3D motion capturesystems to tell us that through
the 3D flat spots of value.

(25:36):
So the more science evolves itjust kind of validates what we
knew 50 years ago was true themore it reconnects with the
nation.
Staggeringly, of all thesethings, we need any science to
prove that nature's good for us,which is just mad.
We now need to have a paper totell us that nature's good for
us, which is just staggering.
So the guys like daily um daryplay.

(25:59):
I'm sure you and I could gothrough multiple examples
intuitively new, and this is theissue with many people these
days.
We need external validation.
I'm one of my many, manyphilosophies is the inner voice
invariably knows the answer.
If you were left alone, michaelwould most likely find the
answer.

(26:19):
But we need external validationbecause a lot of guys don't
like thinking anymore.
But that's a whole differentdiscussion.
So it's demanding for you toexplore, you know, figure out,
to make sense of why you feelwhat you feel, to figure out why
you see what you see.
So a lot of guys just get thisexternal validation these days

(26:43):
and they wonder why, um, theydon't advance in the way they'd
like to.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
It's funny that you say this, because I'm constantly
I tell people I swear I thinkmore of the things I learned
through force plates do more tovalidate the people that came
before me than to discredit themand I say that all the time and
I mean it, I really do thinkthat's true than to discredit
them, and I say that all thetime and I mean it, I really do
think that's true.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
And I've also been on record and I do it all the time
.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
But I've got a goodie here.
I've got a tailor-made R7Superquad TP one of the great
driver heads of all time and Ihit this with my juniors all the
time when I play golf with themand they think I'm crazy.
And the thing that's crazy isthat this 2007 driver goes the
exact same distance as my 2024driver.
That's the latest and greatestof everything, and drivers

(27:35):
haven't gotten any better.
But we need a $26,000 launchmonitor to tell us that.
You know so to your point.
You know the science.
You know there's been goodscience.
You're going to appreciate this.
I made sure to get this one outfor you Alistair Cochran the
search for the perfect swing,first edition, by the way,
that's, that's one of my prizedones right there, um, but you

(27:58):
know a lot of what's in thatbook that was written in nine or
, uh, yes, written and publishedin 1968, a lot of that
information is held up, andsomething that they said at the
World Scientific Congress ofGolf that I always appreciate is
that good science endures, andthat's really.
We didn't know how to do theexperiments and we didn't know

(28:22):
how to do the studies back inthe day when we were figuring
this out.
But I truly believe that if wehad known how to do the studies,
we would have found a lot ofthe same answers that we find
today, that now we have all thetechnology to do all the
research.
So it's I really agree withwhat you're saying it's how do
we get back to?
I think this is important,right?

(28:44):
How do people, when people dowell, play well, perform well?
What space are they in?
Well, to steal from GaryGilchrist.
He says they got to bechildlike and they've got to be
creative and playful and free ofjudgment, and I think there's a
lot of good science thatsupports that.
So, if we're talking about that, how do we get to that place on

(29:07):
the first tee at the open, ifwe never allow ourselves to
explore that place day to daylife?
I just it's.
It's wild to me.
Everybody just thinks it's X'sand O's and it really couldn't
be farther from the truth.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
I mean there's some very good things you said there.
Look, you say Einstein, that hecan improve his theories 100
years ago.
We now need science to provethat Einstein was right 100
years ago.
So there's wonderfuladvancements in the resources we
have now that just validatethat what he did 100 years ago
is true and I think what yousaid there is so true that very

(29:43):
few movement problems areactually movement problems.
So a lot of what you'll see withplayers will display as a
movement issue.
So they will have certainmovements that maybe aren't
helpful and not advantageous forwhatever way you define that,
but very few of the actualdrivers are movement issues.
So to kind of again verycoarsely, kind of explain this
that when life is good and verybig players are performing well

(30:06):
and there's a distraction withinlife, they normally then or
they move poorly, but they hidebehind the movement is the issue
.
It's the same movement thatmade you win last week, that
made you miss the cut thefollowing week, so it's not the
movement issue.
There'd be something withinlife which is distracting them,
but they hide behind thosemovement issues and very few
movement issues are ever trulymovement problems.

(30:28):
The example of the first guy Ishared today.
That's a belief system he has.
Um.
That's led to him to thencreate the stress traps in his
spine.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
So for sure, it displays movement issue and
there's a mechanical umdysfunction I mean, can we talk
about that for just for just amoment, because it's something
that I think needs to be broughtup.
And I'm not somebody with thebackground to address this, but
I think you are, and you know Ido a good amount of traveling

(30:58):
across the world at this pointwith the force plates, and
that's kind of what I like to doand that's kind of how I like
to do and that's kind of how Ilike to look at things.
And when you were talkingearlier about looking at how
somebody moves, you know I likelooking at the things that I
can't see with my eyes, whichare the forces, pressures and
torques.
It's just, it gives me a goodunderstanding of why they're
trying to do what they're doingwith the rest of the golf swing.

(31:31):
But, with that being said,traveling as much as I do, I
tend to see a lot of high endjunior golfers who come in and
they're really high achieving.
They're ranked high on the Rolexlist.
They're, you know, putting upthese benchmarks to where, at 15
, 16 years of age, they'recreating 170 mile an hour of
ball speed and they're doing allthese things that, from the
outside looking in, are very,very good, but at the same time
they're complaining of havingpain and discomfort and

(31:54):
disruption in their body, and ittends to for a lot of juniors
that I've seen.
It tends to be an issue withinthe tro labrum and it tends to
be because at that age a lot ofthem haven't went through those
growth cycles that you alludedto earlier and their body isn't
physically prepared for theforces and torques and pressures
that they're going to apply toit to create those speeds.

(32:16):
So I just I think that, likeyou're saying, a fractured spine
, I mean that it's a veryserious injury, like we're
talking about the spinal columnand I know it's like I get it.
It's not life-threatening but,to your point, it's also not
normal behavior and there's moreand more of this because people
are trying to get to the end ofthe book instead of trying to

(32:38):
enjoy reading the book.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
It seems like yeah, I mean that's.
That's a huge question.
I'll attempt to kind of gothrough that.
Do you agree though?

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Do you see a lot more injuries than we used to see,
cause you've been at this longerthan I have.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Yeah, they've changed .
I mean, like I said, we'venormalized it these days.
If you go back, say, just sayto the nineties, which for me
still feels like yesterday andit was a very you know, the
demands are different, theschedules are different, the
amount of events are different.
So you know, you really can'tcompare generations.

(33:11):
It's just about now, that's allyou can really compare.
It's kind of you versus youtoday really, but it's certainly
very different now.
You could argue that we'redifferent types of athletes than
what we were 30 years ago.
It's staggering to think weneed to ever go to a gym.
That shows how far we'vedevolved as a human race.

(33:32):
That we have to go and trainthese days because it shows what
we don't do most of the time.
So the fact you have to go to agym is staggering.
I mean, the best athletes nevertrain because they are doing it
every day, just in life.
But we have to go to a gym totrain because for the rest of
the day we're doing nothing.
And that is, I think, thebigger question, the fact that
we have to go and actually trainand exercise.

(33:53):
The world exercise didn't exist100 years ago because that was
how they lived their life forevery day.
So we've invented exercise as aword because it shows that the
devolution that we've gonethrough in recent times.
So are they more advancedathletes?
In some areas, yes, um, but inmany other areas, no, um, so you
get a lot of guys, um, and tokind of look at that two ways,

(34:17):
um, the part of the forcediscussion which is often never
told it's a very convenienttruth in some ways, or very
inconvenient truth in some wayswhich is kind of never told.
There's three parts of theforce discussion.
You know the idea of forceproduction, how well you can
produce force.
Then force application, thepart which is often very
conveniently, kind of often keptvery quiet, is in force
absorption.

(34:37):
You have to absorb what youproduce.
So how these guys absorb andforce these days is probably
just not that advantageous, notthat helpful.
So really what you look at ishow they move is of value.
Of course it is, but actuallyhow they move to produce that
value is of a lot more value.
So I'll give an example aroundsome of the force plate stuff

(35:02):
which I use as well, the kind ofclues in its name is called
ground reaction force.
Now, for sure it's the localreaction of the foot on the
floor.
But there's a much biggerhierarchical response um, so
many many things happen beforeforce is produced beliefs, our
anatomy, our physiology of theenvironment, our values, um,
energy systems, the time allsorts of things happen before a

(35:25):
force is produced.
So an example I saw today a guyhad a certain profile through
the floor but it was beingdriven through the adaptation he
has in his neck, which isactually enforced because he
wears glasses, specs.
So because of the disruption inhis visual system he had to
then almost reorientate his neckand head to kind of make the
glasses work.
Then created a response throughthe foot.

(35:47):
So, crudely speaking, within thenervous system, the feet
normally follow the eye.
Our eyes drive our behaviors.
Kind of, where we look is wherewe move is the kind of again,
the very coarse way of seeingthis.
It's called hand-eyecoordination.
For a reason it's not calledhand-foot coordination.
So the hand will follow the eye, the foot then follows the hand

(36:08):
and that's the kind of looseway of looking at movements.
So where we look is where wemove, the hand follows the eye,
the feet normally follow thehands.
That's the kind of thehierarchy, in a very kind of
coarse way, of how we move.
So often many foot baseddisruptions are actually more
visual and hand-based movements.
I got myself in trouble aboutthis a while ago, but you know

(36:29):
what, whatever, I'm a big enoughboy to kind of uh, I kind of
really should lucy be calledhand reaction force, if you
think about it, because the feetjust follow the hand.
So what you see is where thefeet is in response to how they
move the hands through space,and you can probably imagine how
that irritated some people.
But that was never meant thatway.
It was just a fun observation.
I I don't think you're wrong.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
I don't think I.
I, as the force plate guy, I, Ireally don't think you're wrong
.
I mean I, I truly.
There's something that I'd liketo talk to you about another
time, because it's once again.
We don't want to both get introuble.
I'll let you be the guy to godown with that, but I okay, you
know what, let's just do it, Ibelieve.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
I'm on the big boy, michael.
I can you know whatever, I'mpretty chilled about life.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
So I believe the problem and and please forgive
me, I am trained to myself, Idon't have a formal education.
I'm going to butcher a lot ofthings, but stick with me I
truly believe that the reasonthat most golfers struggle is
because they're so busy doingexactly what they did the very

(37:36):
first time they ever touched agolf club.
And the very first time theyever touched a golf club they
probably looked at somebody veryfamiliar with them and said OK,
what do I do?
And that's somebody veryfamiliar to them said you see,
what you do here is you takethat club and you hit that ball.
And that's what people do.
And they hit the ball with theclub and somebody close to them

(37:58):
applauds them and recognizesthem and forevermore they now
know how to hit the ball withthe club.
But that isn't the same task.
That is golf, and we have to doa lot more than just hit the
ball with the stick to play highlevel golf.
And the issue is that the levelof thinking I don't think

(38:19):
really moves past.
Move the stick, and to yourpoint, I'm so glad you said that
because I truly hadn't thoughtof this until you just said it.
But to your point, the handfollows the eyes, and what's
everybody trying to do?
They're trying to get the golfclub back away from the ball
around their body.

(38:40):
And guess what their foot does?
It follows it, and theneverything externally rotates,
and there's just no way thatyou're ever, ever, ever going to
use any ground reaction forceswhatsoever, because what I like
to talk about is the groundaction force.
What is that so, if we are in aposition where we can't create
an action, how are we ever goingto take advantage of the

(39:01):
reaction?
It's an impossibility.
So I'm so glad you said that,because I I think, as somebody
who really thinks that theground is a really important
thing, to look at it really bad.
Ground reaction forcestypically stem from the body, or
, in this case, the hands, wecould say, or the eyes moving
incorrectly, which give us badcueing yeah so that I mean

(39:23):
invariably, if there's adisruption through those force
profiles, the real again what'swhat's the driver is normally
there's.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
There's an issue with the intention.
What is it exactly you'retrying to do so you can look at
it doesn't always go both ways.
You can improve the profiles,like the idea of de-skilling
around the ground.
Reaction forces, whatever itmight be, doesn't always shift
their behaviors, their beliefs,but if you improve their
intention it almost alwaysimproves the forces.
So within physiology is verywell defined physiology.

(39:54):
Michael, you have two choicesin life either change your
behaviors or change yourexpectations.
That's all you can ever do inlife.
We either have to change yourbehavior, which, um, or you
either change the expectation.
So an example being thatphysiology kind of goes
behaviors, which is essentiallycontrol by beliefs, exercise,

(40:15):
nutrition, supplementation, thenan intervention.
So it always starts with what'smy involvement, what's my
contribution to the problem?
What can I do, as Michael andmark, to contribute and resolve
the issue I experience?
Then, how can I use trainingand nutrition to support that
supplements are calledsupplements, are not called
replacements.
How can I supplement them inbalances through, say, my

(40:38):
nutritional demands and then,occasionally may need to be an
intervention?
What we've done so well iswe've inverted that in recent
years.
First approach is do anintervention, surgery, an
external device, like anorthotic, for example.
Then I take a few supplements.
Do you mean I need to train?

(40:59):
What do you mean?
It's my fault.
That's how we've becomeprogrammed.
What do you mean?
It's my fault, and I say thatto many players.
It may not be your fault, butit's your responsibility.
It's not your fault.
You've been exposed to poorinformation, but it's your
responsibility to deal with it,because it circles around again.
It doesn't matter whatintervention you have.

(41:21):
If your behaviors are notadvantageous, you train and your
nutrition's off.
You cannot intervene.
A poor behavior I can'tout-train.
If your behaviors are notadvantageous, you train and your
nutrition's off.
You cannot out-intervene a poorbehavior, you can't out-train
that.
And so it then really comesback again too.
It may not be your fault You'vebeen exposed to whatever but
it's your responsibility to dealwith it, because that's the
only choice you'll ever haveeither change your behaviors or

(41:43):
shift your expectations in life.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
I mean, that's it, that's all you, that's all you
can do, and it's.
It's interesting.
You know, the intervention isis, if we apply that to golf,
trying to keep it kind of golfrelated, right, you know, the
intervention is lesson afterlesson, after lesson and that
doesn't work.
So we're onto the next coachand it's it's just this constant

(42:09):
search for more information andmore information and more data.
And you know, I I think we'reprobably two of the people uh,
that if they said who are thegolf data freaks, we're probably
showing up on a lot of thoselists.
Uh, and there's two golf datafreaks here that are basically
saying you know the best thing,you know.

(42:29):
I'll give you a perfect example.
I get a lot of phone calls toour facility because our juniors
and our players have a lot ofsuccess.
So a lot of parents call us andwant us to work with their
children and they tell me abouthow little Timmy is like super
excited about golf and justcan't play enough golf and loves
golf and loves to practice.
And I'm like that's great.
And they're like what do youthink we should do?

(42:51):
And I'm like I think you shoulddo whatever you're doing, cause
it sounds like it's workingperfectly and they're like yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, he's excited,but we want him to get better.
Well, give him time He'll getbetter.
And it's like we just we don't,we don't ever want to allow for
the development to kind ofhappen on its own.
We, we want this, you said itearlier.

(43:13):
We want this externalvalidation that we're getting
better, we're doing the rightthing or that we're in good
hands, as as State Farm wouldwant us to know, but like
there's just so much more to thelearning process that we're
kind of leaving out and then weact like, because we have all
these tools, that it's gottenbetter.
And in reality, I think thetools most of the time cause

(43:36):
more confusion than ever get toa point to where they add
clarity, let alone add value Ithink what you said there.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
There's a word used there which is so valuable that
we want him to get better.
But what does he want?
Do you ever ask your son?
Does he want to get better?
So whose session is this?
Your son's or yours?
Is the parents?
So that's the issue.
You often see here that, um,whose aspiration is this?
You, the parents, or mydaughter?
As an example, my daughterloves gymnastics.
I'm a very frustrated, very oldgymnast, but my daughter loves

(44:07):
gymnastics and it's herexperience.
It's her she decides if shewants to go, not me or my wife.
Um, the role of a parent.
Drop him off, pick him up, givehim the opportunity to fail in
a very safe way, but you don'tsee it fail.
You see, it's part of theexploration of evolution.
So you know the idea we wanthim to get better.
Well, so it's about you then.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
Right.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
When was this not your son's session?
Ask your son.
He might just be happy doingthis.
He made the assumption everyonecomes to see him and wants to
win the Open.
Just likes playing with hismates and having a good time.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
I have a young student right now.
He's one of my favorites.
He's like 13 years old and Ifirst met him not that long I
mean, it's been a few months,but not that long ago and he,
you know, wasn't very good,wasn't, didn't have a lot of
awareness as to what he neededto do to hit the golf ball, that
kind of stuff young player, nota lot of experience Um, and
when I talked to him and wastrying to ask him, like you know

(45:07):
, what his goals were and whathis aspirations were and things
like that, he was like, yeah, Ijust don't want to play
tournaments.
And I was like, okay, cool,like tell me more about that.
And he's like, yeah, I reallydon't want to talk about it, but
like I don't want to playtournaments.
And I was like, okay, that'stotally fine with me.
I was like, does that mean thatwe can't still get better at

(45:28):
golf?
He's like, no, I want to getbetter at golf, but like I want
to beat my friends, but I don'treally care about playing in
tournaments and it's.
It's just really, I thought itwas so and it's not abnormal
behavior.
That's normal behavior.
But given how things are in oursociety now, it was a very
unique perspective from a youngman and I found it really

(45:49):
refreshing.
And the funny thing is is he'slearned so quickly and he's
really progressed much quickerthan I would have expected him
to at this point, based off thebenchmarks that we have and
things like that.
But it's almost like this lackof pressure to go out and
compete in a tournament nextweek or two weeks from now or

(46:10):
whatever the case may be.
This lack of pressure man, it'sjust like opened up the
creativity for him and he's beenable to go out there and
explore and learn and not havethe pressures on him to like
live up to this expectation.
It's really it's.
It's been a really cool littleexperiment without being an
experiment I mean, you look atit now and who creates
expectations?

Speaker 2 (46:30):
it you, me, the parent, whoever might be, and I
know I remember years ago.
Um, as it was the european tourbefore then, the dp board tour
guy knew very well, likefinishing second every week
didn't want the stress ofwinning.
This wasn't why you performed.
You like finishing third, pickup a ton of cash, go no stress.
They want the stress of winning.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
It's true, right Like that happens, winning is a
whole other thing, like beingthere and winning are two
different things.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
It's the idea of solutions and trades.

Speaker 1 (47:01):
Okay, you win an event.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
It just creates a different trade-off.
Then you have to deal with theexpectations of press and that
kind of stuff and differenttravel demands and whatnot.
Um, so that's, that's a big,it's a big consideration.
Um going, going back to thatyoung man again, whose session
is it?
Who owns the learning?
And do they own the learning ordoes it us?
Um, a question we don't askenough of players is why are you

(47:22):
here?
Why are you here today?

Speaker 1 (47:25):
yeah, I mean one of my favorite questions.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
Why are you here really?
And so that's it.
There's a tremendous differenceto kind of doing golf and
playing golf.
Many guys can do golf but notplay golf, so I'm always very
mindful in any session um as towhy you're here.
Where's the.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
So if you had one needle that you had to put into
the golf instruction space, whatwould be the needle that you
would want to put in and be kindof known for at this point and

(48:07):
I know it's probably going tochange throughout your career
and things like that it alwaysdoes but if you had to stick
your one needle in golfinstruction right now and go,
this is the thing I wish wouldchange, because I'm seeing it be
the most disruptive.
What would that thing be and itcould be either positive or
negative, it could go either way.
But what would be that thing beand it could be either positive

(48:27):
or negative, it could go eitherway.
But what would be that oneneedle?

Speaker 2 (48:29):
Can I divide into three areas?
Can it be kind of one?

Speaker 1 (48:31):
needle on each.
I'll give you three areas.
I'll give you three.
I'll give you three.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
I would say absolutely within our physiology
, our belief systems.
You know beliefs drivebehaviors.
You behave this way because ofa belief you have.
So we spend more time just kindof you know, pressing pause,
you know, breathing out, go tothe out breath, the idea of kind
of, if in doubt, breathe outthat kind of stuff and just kind
of zoom out slightly.
So too many guys look at ablade of grass, not the whole

(48:56):
lawn, just kind of zoom out.
So the more you zoom out, themore the problem that reduces,
and that's it.
Start to explore the beliefsthat you have.
Why do you believe what youbelieve to be true?
In many guys a lot of peopletalk a bit like the media.
I'm sure it's the same in theUS and England.
They give this sensationalheadline and then beneath it,
provide the context.
So if you never read a headline, you'd have a very different

(49:19):
definition of the story.
You'd hope the media reportaccurately.
You'd read the story and thenperceive it very different.
But the headline creates this.
How You'd read the?
You'd hope the media reportaccurately.
You'd read the story and thenperceive it very different.
But the headline creates thishow do you play today?
Oh, it's terrible.
What I was so bad today.
What'd you shoot?
68?
Wait a second.
It's just kind of slow down andwell, cut line was all good,
played really nicely around theturn.
Had a couple of bad shots atthe end at the context.

(49:44):
So belief systems for sure.
I think you know.
When we shift our beliefs, ourbehaviors change.
When our behaviors change, theneverything changes more within
the nervous system, for sure,the influence of vision.
So again, the eyes drive ourbehaviors um where we look is
where we move in life.
Um, so really how we use visionin particular is it is very much

(50:07):
, um, to give you some kind of,like you said, half the brain is
connected to vision andmovement.
About 80% of our sensoryfeedback comes from vision and
we normally respond about 80milliseconds after we've
received that kind of piece offeedback.
So vision is by far our biggest, unless someone has obviously a
visual impairment.
Um, our vision is our, is ourlargest sensory um um stimulus

(50:34):
and then within more themovement side say of um that the
more extrinsic biomechanics,for sure, the pelvis, um, it's
kind of loosely connected withour center of mass.
It's kind of round about L3,like the third lumbar vertebrae,
truly speaking, again dependson frame shape they're called
helixes and it depends on theshape of the human frame and the
depth of the.
It's called pelvis inclination,which is the lumbar spine

(50:57):
relative to the pelvis.
So, allowing for all theseindividual markers, truly
speaking, our center of mass isabout L3.
So when the pelvis moves well,our central mass is about L3.
So when the pelvis moves well,loosely speaking, the human
moves well.
So you could actually threadthose three together.
You look at what is the basis ofhuman movement?
It's how the hands and eyescoordinate the best position of

(51:17):
the pelvis.
That is the basis of how wemove.
So almost all.
But there'll be exceptions.
For sure, and I'm sure yourviewers and listeners are very,
very intellectual.
They will find these exceptions.
But, typically speaking, everymovement in life is how the
hands and eyes coordinate thebest position of pelvis.
That's how we've evolved since,you know, day one of human, um,

(51:39):
no kind of mankind, way backwhen, um, so that is, those
three needles vision, hand-eyecoordination or you could say
beliefs in this case and thepelvis.
So when those three align, it'snormally a very good day.
When there's a disruption inthose three, it's very it's a
long day would vision tie intooverall neck mobility and health

(52:03):
?

Speaker 1 (52:04):
would you, would you say that?

Speaker 2 (52:08):
yeah, it's a very kind of circle of discussion.
So if someone has a neck issuewhich is again we're being very
I don't like to have areductionist view of life when
we filter it so heavily we loseall the good stuff.
So when you heavily filteranything it's like milk.
For example, it's called deadmilk.

(52:29):
When you hugely pasteurize andhomogenize milk it becomes dead
milk.
There's no enzyme or nutrientvalue because all the good
stuff's been taken out.
So what you drink is oftenreferred to as kind of dead milk
.
And so you know we like toreduce things in this in this
day and age, um, which I thinkdevalues the intellect or the
discussion then.
But typically speaking, ifthere's a thoracic, there's a

(52:51):
thorax issue.
There really was a cervicalspine issue so often when
there's a neck issue there wasan eye issue and also vice versa
.
So there's that lovely kind ofcircular interaction between if
there's been a neck adaptation,which is certainly what you see
as you mature through life, aswe advance in years, we often
get exposed to gravity.
More we get we've been exposedto gravity, more Our neck gets

(53:14):
kind of compressed down andforwards.
Rotation starts up at the topof the cervical spine.
Kind of C1 is where we startrotation from.
So for you and I to kind ofmove this way sequentially, that
had to come through the upperpart of the cervical spine.
When we live in these very kindof compressed positions, we
almost close down the ability tomove them through our cervical
spine.
So it's got the axis ofrotation with anatomy.

(53:35):
We then start to rotate morearound C67 with this part of the
neck, which is why many olderpeople get neck pain, because
they've changed the axis ofwhere rotation happens.
Then they start adaptingdifferent segments.
So, examples being, we adaptother areas to move around those
constraints we have through, inthis case our neck.

(53:56):
So we often adapt the pale, weadapt the foot as a way of
moving around those neckconstraints.
So we then start seeing thoseprofiles through the floor again
.
Really, what they represent ishow we adapt.
So any value you look at,invariably whether it be through
3d force plates, launchmonitors, even statistics on a
golf course all they reallyreveal is how we are adapting to

(54:19):
the constraints placed upon usenvironmental constraints, um,
emotional constraints, um,anatomical constraints.
So it's how we're adapting.
So really, what they reveal isthe approach used to move around
the imbalances that we have andso, yeah, neck in the eye, you

(54:42):
really can't look at themindependent of each other.
It's quite common you see areally good kind of scans from a
, from the cloud view.
You often see a skull lookinglike this where one eye relative
sits forwards because the thetorsion through the neck.
So then they've adapted a neckbased on a visual disruption and
or vice versa, um, so when youstart looking at the head I mean

(55:04):
examples again being that asight and touch, all of our
senses are in our head smell,taste, sound, vision, you could
argue, touches on our head,because we actually perceive in
the brain that themechanoreceptors on our skin
that detect change in pressureand temperature, for example, we
still perceive it through thebrain.

(55:25):
So when there's kind of eyehead based issues, that's the
whole sensory system beingdisrupted.
Um, not many people playbarefoot, which is a different
discussion.
Um, so when we put shoes on ourfeet, we then put a layer of
separation between us and theearth.
We lose that sensory feedbackthrough the feet because of
what's what we kind of, whathe's playing, um.

(55:47):
So still, I had neck movement.
It's very unusual that you wantto be real, I mean beyond
generic.
So I apologize in advance forthis, but if someone's neck and
head are moving well, invariablythe human moves well.

Speaker 1 (56:03):
If there's something through eye, neck and head, kind
of good luck moving well no,that I mean it makes a ton of
sense, and I've met some reallysmart people who are great
applicators of the human bodyand a lot of guys that I know
who are really forward thinkingand kind of trying to, you know,

(56:25):
look at areas that aren't beinglooked at right now, are
looking at the neck and the headand how that aligns, because,
to your point, you know, ourrotation really starts there and
if, if we have, you know, it'snot uncommon now for people to
to have poor posture because ofcell phones and everybody
looking down on their lap allthe time, or whatever the case

(56:47):
may be.

Speaker 2 (56:49):
It even goes back to the type of food.
You want to be really esotericnow.
It even goes back to the typeof food you eat.
These days A lot of movementissues are actually dental-based
, tooth-based issues.
Really, we eat soft food.
The idea of ultra-processedfood we have crowding through
the jaw.
Our jaws are getting smallerbecause we eat very softly.

(57:09):
We don't chew anymore, we getcrowns with the teeth.
Um, we then get changes throughthe jaw.
The jaw is kind of, looselyspeaking, connected into where
rotation happens with the neck.
So often when the jaw, forexample, we saw food, we get
something called an overbite,but our upper teeth are in front
of our lower jaw.
Head gets shifted forwards.
The pelvis gets put into likean anterior um anteverted

(57:32):
position.
Center of mass goes forwards.
We see pressure on the toes ataddress.
So you'll see through, say,when I use my force plate.
Hey, the pressure sits forwards.
To be esoteric, this what drovethat was the food you've eaten
the last two or three yearsbecause you've changed the
structure of the jaw.
So a lot of a lot of movementissues these days are actually
dental based issues and even theresearch now around kind of

(57:53):
dental hygiene almost I thinkit's something like depends on
the research you read.
Anything from kind of 50 to 70percent of known conditions in
life now connect back to adental based hygiene issue.
To give an example every, everyorgan in our body connects into
a tooth.
So when you have a tooth issueit then disrupts the

(58:14):
correspondent organ the liver,the pancreas, the spleen, the,
the, the kidneys, for exampleall connecting to our teeth
through those meridians in ourbody.
So if you have, say, a rootcanal or certain fillings, for
example, that then goes intothen it disrupts then the
corresponding organ wow, look atthat.

Speaker 1 (58:33):
We went from talking about golf to talking about how
dental problems are really thecause of most movement I look a
lot at.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
I look a lot at jaws and I one of my first questions
is any dental work in recenttimes really?
Um, so someone's saying then,yeah, well, I very rarely will I
not ask someone in a sessionabout their dental history.
Um, so when you start to lookat then, what teeth in the jaw
we've done, which is why we havethese very narrow jaws and this
crowd in some people's teeththese days and it really goes

(59:00):
back to this very soft palatable.
I wouldn't call it food.
It's more edible product orit's kind of edible chemicals.
In some ways is thesemanufactured things we choose to
choose to consume.
Is not food as I see food.
Um, we now have these verynarrow, um, these dental base
issues which then create neckissues, visual issues, spine
issues, feet issues.

(59:21):
Yeah, it becomes um, um, theypretty huge as far as the
influence on what we do.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
That's.
Yeah, I mean that's, it's nutsand it's.
I'm just glad that we've got toa point, and I don't know that
we we really got to any pointstoday, but I'm glad that we are.
I'm glad that we as an industryare getting to a place I should
say not a point, but a place.
I'm glad that we as an industryare getting to a place I should

(59:48):
say not a point, but a place towhere we can explore.
Uh and I think that's kind ofthe theme of of today's podcast
is, you know, exploring ideasand how things are related to
other things.
Um is very, very important andyou know, I love the fact that
there's more people coming intogolf that aren't just coming at
it from a golf perspective andare coming from a very educated

(01:00:11):
place, and we can start learningmore about these things and we
can learn about how a jawlinecan influence rotation because
of where it's connected at thebase of the neck.
So I mean, I think all of thisis only going to lead at some
point to where we have someexperience with this new

(01:00:33):
information, this new knowledge,and then we can create some
wisdom with it and actuallyfigure out where the application
is, because I think that's thehardest part.
Right Is, at the end of the day, you have to kind of dip your
hands into all that you know andpull out an answer to tell
somebody what we think is goingto be the one needle for them
that's going to make the biggestamount of change with the least

(01:00:56):
amount of disruption.
And that's that's really theart and beauty of coaching in a
lot of ways is is being able torealize like there's a lot of
different ways this could go,but this is the way we're
choosing to go because it's ourbest, uh, best educated guests
that we have available to us I'mabsolutely right there.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
It goes back to that knowledge and know-how
discussion, how to use theinformation that you have.
And you're very mindful thatyou know, within um kind of
physiology again, that oneperson's ability is another
person's disability.
So what helps player A doesn'talways help player B and as you
always said that very kind ofyou know, I kind of say that

(01:01:35):
most people that precisequestions, the precise
approaches and, fortunately,generic approaches often to
precise questions.
Example I can give you a guylast year I've known since 2013,
so I've had the pleasure ofseeing him through boys golf in
England, to the national program, to Walker Cup, to DP World
Tour.
Now we started to explore theuse of a gum shield.

(01:01:55):
It was a mouth guard, he calledit.
In the US he had a lot of footpain.
He missed a bit of the seasonthrough a foot issue.
The minute he put his mouthguard in, the foot pain pain
went away.
The neural tension through hisneck was kind of pulling on, uh,
the the perineal nerve into hisfoot.
Um, so when we started torealign his jaw and his teeth
again through a mouse guard,sorry, um that the nervous

(01:02:16):
system could let go and the kindof foot pain went away.
You look to what the theperformance markers and say um
power production, um heartrateabilities, through his the
trackers he used his heart ratevariability increase, which is a
good thing um his, hisperformance markers improved.
The foot went away throughwearing a mouth guard and if I

(01:02:37):
took that approach to somepeople, they'd walk away
thinking I was insane, I shouldbe locked up.
So you've got to be verymindful and that's the idea kind
of um I say playfully many,many people have great education
but they're still idiots,unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
So having a good education is not a precursor to
being an intellectual, there's alot of people who fly into
Detroit, michigan, and then takea 45-minute car ride over to
Ann Arbor to work with mebecause I have force plates

(01:03:12):
which aren't that common here inthe US, and I'm kind of known
as the force plate guy and I'vespent a lot of time with this
and I feel pretty confident inmy ability to look at this force
plate information and make itapplicable to the people in
front of me.
So I get a lot of people thatcome here and in my opinion and
I'm not trying to be judgmental,but in my opinion these people

(01:03:34):
come to me because they went toeverybody else and they didn't
get the answer they wanted toget and they think, by coming to
me, that they're going to get anew space age answer that's
going to solve all of theirproblems and be what they want
to hear.
So they, they come into myfacility.
We do everything that we do.
We do some 3d, we do the forceplates, we do a launch monitor.

(01:03:56):
Uh, I don't do a ton ofassessing, I'm more of a.
I want to see them do the taskat hand, not see them do
something kind of like it.
Uh, mentality.
But if there are someirregularities that show up, we
may do a little bit of assessingbased off what we see.
And we get all of that done.
And then the person in front ofme is like okay, what do you got
?
I know you got me a good answer, what is it?

(01:04:17):
And I'm like well, you see, thething is, is you really do all
of your tilting through yourpelvis?
And what we really need to dois we need to get your pelvis
tucked a little better andthat's going to allow you to
start creating some frontalplane torque and that'll fix a
lot of your low point issues.
And they're like so you'resaying I need to work on my
posture?
Yep, I'm saying you need towork on your posture.

(01:04:37):
Oh, no, no, no, I've heard thatbefore.
Somebody already told me thatthat didn't work.
And it's like I hear whatyou're saying, partner, I do.
But to your point, mark, likeyou can either, you know, change
your expectations or change thebehavior.
And it's like look, dude, ifyou want to play better golf,

(01:04:58):
then you're going to have tochange your behavior.
And if you're not willing totuck your pelvis and like,
create some frontal plane torquewhich is going to help you move
low.
Point more in front of the ball, then like you're not willing
to tuck your pelvis and likecreate some frontal plane torque
which is going to help you movelow.
Point more in front of the ball, then like you're going to have
to change your expectations andyou're not going to be a
scratch golfer.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Actually right, I had it.
We still live in Orlando at thetime before COVID happened.
So we kind of went home becauseof COVID, because of the travel
situation.
I remember a young lady came tosee me once and about I need a
different answer.
So really my role is not togive you an answer, it's to ask
you a better question.
So my role was to ask differentquestions of you.

(01:05:34):
I remember saying to her onceokay, so we have all that the
kind of the feedback on screen.
So I said to her if I came toyou moving this way, how would
you help me?
And just the silence she wasmet with.
She couldn't even start toconceptualize that she had to
find a way of resolving this.
And I remember saying to herdad I was very honest with them.
I kind of take the approach,I'm friendly without being their
friend.

(01:05:54):
I'm not there to be theirfriend, but I'm friendly with
them.
But maybe there's the issue shehas no ability that when it goes
wrong on the first tee of acollegiate event she can't phone
me up to problem solve.
So I said, really, first tee ofa collegiate event, you can't
throw me up to problem solve.
So I said really my role is not.
I'm not a problem solver, I'mnot a problem finder, a problem
creator.
I need to create an issue foryou then to go and resolve,

(01:06:16):
because that's when the learninghappens.
You find a way of resolving theissue that I created.
So really my role was to askbetter questions of you, which
is what the information does.
To kind of go back to what wediscussed earlier today um, and
really, if I came even that way,how would you solve this?
And they look at you, some guys, and then suddenly you can't
keep quiet.
It just is complete um.

(01:06:36):
It's almost like a complete umrelease in some ways, complete
liberation of being able tothink.
I remember.
Um, again, I'm, I can.
I'm the most probably chilled,or, at least I hope, very humble
guy out there.
And a lady came over from theUS a few weeks ago, plays on the
LPG tour.
She came over to England to seeme for a couple of days.

(01:06:56):
She goes.
You're the first guy, marcus,ever actually let me think.
I was like I need to understandthat more.
Yeah, she goes.
You're the only guy that hasever actually let me think.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
I think that's a big compliment.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
That says a lot about you, reggie.
I mean you look at it.
I said that's nice.
I mean, when you giveinformation, it really exposes
two things your movement historyand your learning history.
So whenever I give you any kindof feedback, two things get
exposed now the learning historyyou've had and the movement
history you've done.
So people that are veryexploratory movers, they're very

(01:07:35):
movement diverse and they'vebeen coached rather than taught,
which is a whole different.
Are you a coach, teacher orinstructor?
They're very different to me,reveals much about that.
So what, when you giveinformation, you would expose
them, both their movement andtheir coaching and movement
history.
And so I said maybe that waspossible.

(01:07:55):
What happened there?
Just expose what you've beenexperienced to getting the idea
of kind of nature alongsidenurture well, I think you've.

Speaker 1 (01:08:03):
You've really done a nice job of kind of going back
to what you were talking aboutwith your I'm going to call it
your diversified single needle,in which you talked about the
belief system, how the eyes areinterpreting information and
then how the pelvis isunderstood.

(01:08:23):
But going back to the beliefsystem, you know, going back to
the analogy I used earlier, towhere somebody close to you told
you to hit a ball with a club,you know, the reason that we
believe what we believe for mostof us is because a loved one
told us and why would we nottrust that loved one?
And then the real issue becomeslater on down the road when we

(01:08:45):
need to maybe change somethingthat was told that that loved
one.
And then the real issue becomeslater on down the road when we
need to maybe change somethingthat was told that that loved
one shared with them.
Now there's like really thisconflict and challenging that
idea Well, was my grandpa a badguy?
Because he told me no, no, no,like he just didn't know what he
didn't know and was just moreor less repeating, probably,
what he had been told or what heknew.

(01:09:05):
So I think, going back to theoverall theme again.
You know, even if Grandpa Joetold you something, it's okay to
wonder why Grandpa Joe told youthat, and it's okay to ask why,
and it's okay to be curious.
And I really think that if youare somebody listening to this

(01:09:27):
and you're listening to this forthe purpose of trying to
improve your ability as a golferI think the number one skill
set you have to go about kind ofeliciting and making change
with is your ability to becurious and to ask more
questions, because Dr Mark Bollis by far and away one of the
smartest people I've met in thegolf industry Uh, definitely one

(01:09:50):
of the more influential peopleI've met in the industry and the
one thing that he shares thathe doesn't know yet and he
hasn't heard this yet is that heshares something with another
one of my mentors, uh, and thatmentor was Mr Mike Adams, and
Mike always says kind of thesame thing in a different way,
which is ask better questionslike ask questions.

(01:10:11):
Questions are how we learn.
Failure is part of the game.
No matter what you do, you'realways going to occur some kind
of failure, unless what you'redoing isn't really worth doing.
So I really think gettingpeople in a less judgment based
position to where they can bemore curious and free and
exploratory is always going toput people in the best place

(01:10:33):
possible to improve theirabilities as a golfer.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
Yeah, I think kind of what you said.
There is so true that whoyou're trying to influence is
the player's biggest influence,so you figure out very quickly
who is it.
I could give perhaps the mostvaluable information, but if
their biggest influence doesn'tsee value in it, they'll always
do what the biggest influencesays them to do.
So, really, one of your mainroles in life is to figure out
who is that player.
Could be mom, could be dad,could be brother, could be best

(01:11:01):
mate, could be, could be anybody.
Doesn't matter who it is who isthe player's biggest influence
and that's how you have to, whoyou need to influence, because
if they say do it, that playerwill do it and so you have that
you need to have the trust, therelationship, which you can take
a long time to develop, andthey'll always look at um.
That will always be reinforcedby their biggest influence in

(01:11:21):
life well, I know you've had abusy day coaching.

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
Uh, it's a little later where you're at and I
really appreciate the time, soI'm gonna go ahead and let us
sign off here, because I'mpretty convinced that you have a
long night ahead of you becausethat teddy bear holding the
golf club over your rightshoulder if I, if I saw that
thing while I was trying tosleep, I would probably be a
little bit concerned so I thinkyou might have a difficult time

(01:11:47):
getting a good night's sleepwith that in the room.

Speaker 2 (01:11:50):
I had more issues with the mosquitoes.
I left the doors to the hotelroom open last night, so I was
more concerned with the mozziescoming and biting me at whatever
time it was.
But I've never met this picture.
I've stayed in this place a fewtimes over the years.

Speaker 1 (01:12:02):
I like it.
It's my lack of awareness Ihave to.
Well, I like it.
But thank you again, doctor, Ireally appreciate it.
Uh, if you're interested inlearning more about dr mark bull
, you certainly can find moreinformation, not only on him,
but he has an amazing app thatyou can download and use for
understanding your golf swing alittle bit better, at least

(01:12:22):
measuring some different thingswithin the golf swing.
I can't't recommend it enough.
It's Bull 3D Golf, highlyrecommend, and I also don't want
to be remiss because I just sawthis today and going to be
attending, but you might have tohelp me, doc, because I don't
have it in front of me.
I apologize, but you are doingan education event in Orlando.

(01:12:44):
I got it right here.
So you are doing a golfperformance evolution 2025,
january 20th at Orange CountyNational.
Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (01:12:55):
Yeah, with a very dear friend of mine, dr Brendan
McLaughlin.
So Brendan and I have workedtogether for many, many years
one of my dearest friends and soBrendan and I did one last year
which was very kindly received,and so we're going to do it,
and this one will be more aroundactually doing lots of live
sessions during the day sopeople get to experience it, get
to have a session with Brendanand myself.
Worse, they get to observe itand be actively involved in the

(01:13:16):
session.
So there'll be a little bit ofa discussion around the latest
observations in the last 12months and Brendan and I but
it'd be a very live interacttoday which we're very excited
about.
So if anyone's um, if you cango to my instagram page the link
is in the bio to that and it'sum.
Brendan is just a, the mostwonderful human one of my very,
very dear friends and Iencourage anyone to spend time
with him as well and sohopefully be a fun day.

(01:13:38):
So I appreciate you kind ofreferencing that yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
Well, I'm going to be a little more forward than you
were.
If, if you're listening to this, you should go.
It's going to be very, verygood.
If you are a coach or somebodythat is helping other golfers in
any kind of capacity, I thinkthis is very well worth your
time and a great investment inyour education.
So, once again, january 20th,right around the PGA show.

(01:14:03):
So for those of you that aregoing to be down there for that,
you can go ahead and stop atthis as well, but honestly,
without trying to sound like I'mplugging too hard, I definitely
think this is a great way toinvest some money into your
education and getting some realgood data and science that is
going to kind of support you andbecoming a better coach.

(01:14:23):
So, once again, thank you to DrMark Bull for being on the
podcast.
I certainly appreciate his timeand insights and thought that
this was definitely a very denseepisode, so I'm very, very
thankful for him for that, aswell as being thankful for you,
the listener.
I appreciate all the supportand everybody listening, so
please be sure to subscribe anddownload to this podcast and,

(01:14:46):
until next time, keep grinding.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}New Frontiers in Golf: Bridging Curiosity, Science, and Skill

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

24/7 News: The Latest

All Episodes

New Frontiers in Golf: Bridging Curiosity, Science, and Skill

On Purpose with Jay Shetty