The Psychology of Golf Performance

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured
Golf podcast, where we sit down,have guests join us and talk
all things golf and golfperformance and golf courses and
just about everything to dowith golf.
And this week is going to be aspecial one because we are
really going to maybe try to geta little bit closer to the

(00:22):
spirit of the game andunderstanding why we behave the
way we do on the golf course.
So when we start talking aboutbehaviors and we start talking
about how we are reacting to theenvironment when we play golf
and maybe having difficultiesovercoming that, the person
you'd probably want to talk toin that situation would be a
clinical psychologist.

(00:42):
And we're just so lucky to havea clinical psychologist on
standby who is willing to begracious enough with his time to
take zero dollars to hop on apodcast with myself and kind of
nerd out for maybe a bit of time.
So, without further ado, I'dlike to introduce Dr Michael
Klein.
Doc, we're happy to have you.
Thanks so much for joining us.

(01:03):
This should be fun, man.
I'm looking forward to this.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Me too, yep Clinical psychologist by trade and, since
2020, marrying that with myextensive golf background as a
player and a student of the game, and really fortunate to have
linked up with some greatcoaches who've referred a lot of
players to me.

(01:28):
I now coach players at everylevel elite juniors, collegiate,
regional pros and some tourprofessionals now.
So it's been, it's been anamazing run and I'm really
excited to talk to you because Ithink, actually, I just I just
was watching one of your YouTubeclips and I was like I have to

(01:49):
talk.
I mean, I was, I just messagedyou.
I was like I need to talk toyou.
The passion that you had inyour desire for coaches to do,
do the best they could for theirstudents and have everybody
enjoy the game was so palpableto me and I think I bring the

(02:09):
same passion to the mentalcoaching work I'm doing.
It's been amazing.
It's been so rich that I'mactually very far into writing a
book.
I'm most of the way throughwith a manuscript.
And's so much to talk about andlet's get started.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
Yeah, I mean it's, you know, like you said, the,
the passion, right, and I thinkthat you know, whether it's golf
or whatever walk of life you'rein, you know people.
Some people are fortunate andfind what it is that they're
passionate about and then reallyfortunate people get to go on
the journey that just they kindof do what they love every day

(02:50):
and and it kind of shows throughand I definitely think you have
that and I like to think I havethat as well.
But I think the Genesis for someof that and what connects us is
, you know, for me it was goingback to 2019 and meeting Mr Mike
Adams and I know we share thatin our lineage and you know
Mike's big, big two things atthat summit were you need to

(03:11):
invest in yourself and you needto ask better questions.
And I really feel like you know, obviously I've made the
investment Everybody that see myfacility and all that stuff.
That goes without question.
But the asking better questionspart, and that is, you know,
kind of being that four-year-oldand perpetually asking why, and

(03:33):
that's where I think you knowyou and other doctors and other
disciplines, you know, cominginto golf really allows for
people like me who kind of moreor less coach golf, to kind of
start understanding the biggerthings at play versus it's just
hitting a white golf ballthrough a field and adding up
the totality of it with a singlenumber, like there's a little

(03:55):
more going on than that andright that lineage to mike.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
and really someone I've I've I've worked closely
with is Danny Harcourt, who'snow Director of Instruction at
Fiddlers, and Terry Rolls andothers who I've presented at
Mike's conferences.
I've done a little bit ofpresenting for Mike Doyle at
Five Iron and gotten to meet somany other people in the field.

(04:21):
I went to the PGA show thisyear and so asking better
questions is a great place forus to start, because let's dive
in, the student's going to askyou why did the ball go left?
Why did the ball go right?
Why did I fat it or chunk it?
And for the mental coach-.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
I wish they asked that question.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
You're so many steps ahead.
I wish they asked that question.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
They don't ask that question.
They just sit there and do thesame thing over and over again
and wonder why they'reconstantly shooting scores
higher than they think theyshould and they're not wrong,
they should shoot lower scoresbut they never adapt.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
So adaptation is somethingthat's so interesting.
We can really get into that,the thing I tend to work on.
I also work with club players,right.
So that's what's reallyinteresting.
And let's just also state oneof our basic premises that
everybody may not move like aprofessional, but they can think

(05:19):
like a professional For sure.
Agreed, let's start there.
So what does an elite player dodifferent than a player who's
out playing casually or even iscompeting at their club
championship or against theirfriends, or just wants to get
the best out of their game?
And the number one thing I endup going over with them is what

(05:40):
shot are they hitting?
They have to select a cleartarget.
They have to match the club tothe shot they're hitting.
And a fun thing for us todiscuss is when I cue a club
player, an amateur, what's theintended shape of the shot?
They'll often fight me and sayI'm not good enough to do that.

(06:01):
And I say, when you play, well,what's your stock shop?
Because the joy of knowingpeople like you and knowing Mike
is I've really been a studentof the way he teaches and some
of the biomechanic assessments,and I know, and you know, that
bodies like to move how theylike to move.
So if they take advantage oftheir basic you know movement

(06:25):
patterns and produce a shapethat their body wants to produce
, like a small fade, and theysay, well, when I play, well, I
hit a tiny fade.
So I say, could you say I'mgoing to hit a small fade right
at the tree behind the green.
It'll fade a little to theright and land just next to the
even on the pin, if the pin iscenter.

(06:46):
And then they sort of get alittle bashful and they say I
said could you produce that shot?
And they say yes.
So I said, okay, now get up toit and tell me I'm going to hit
a little fade at the tree.
It's going to peel off the treeand land right in the middle of
the green and then they canproduce it.
And so that often starts acascade of exploration to

(07:10):
elevate their mental game, wherethey realize a light bulb goes
on which is naming the shot, andsay I'm going to which are my
three favorite words I'm goingto link that to target and an
intended shape that they canproduce.
And I'm telling you, mike, I'veseen people the next swing, the

(07:30):
next hole, elevate their wholegame because then their mind is
working more like aprofessional's who always does
that right.
They would, I caddy for peoplelike Danny and Luke Wells played
in the U S amateur.
These guys have a clear pictureof exactly what they're doing
and they don't like the shotthey're hitting.

(07:52):
I know you're going to lovethis.
They love the shot they'rehitting.
The second I see, love.
I snapped the bag and I'm offloving the shot that they see
within their repertoire totalcommitment, getting over it and
pulling the trigger on time.
I actually get a little bitlike chills saying it.

(08:12):
It's so beautiful watching aplayer do that and let's offer
this to everybody today.
Everybody can do that ifthey're picking shots from a
repertoire that they can produce.
I want to peel shots from arepertoire that they can produce
.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
I want to peel the onion back on that just a bit.
Cool.
I saw the most amazing thingthat I've probably seen at a
professional tournament and Ican't remember.
I want to say it was 23.
I was at Augusta national Rightand it was late in the evening

(08:51):
and I had just kind of likeparked right there at the very
end of the driving range next tothe caddy shack and was just
kind of watching some playerslike do kind of some you know
late evening kind of sessionstuff and was just kind of
didn't have a didn't have a realreason to be there, but also
like had every reason to bethere.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
So, um, I'm sitting there and I see Randy Smith uh,
scotty Scheffler's coach andhe's kind of sitting front row
and I'm kind of in the back row.
So I just kind of see Randysitting there and I was not
going to go talk to him orbother him or anything, I was
just going to kind of see ifanything happened.
And this young man came up tohim like really small, young

(09:33):
young man and I was like, andhe's wearing a Nike hat, kind of
looks like Scotty, and he walksup to Randy and obviously Randy
knows who he is, like it wasobvious that maybe this was one
of Randy's junior students orsomething of that effect.

(09:53):
So this young man pulls outthis little notebook right and
starts showing it to Randy andRandy opens it and he's going
through each page kind ofthoughtfully and I have no idea
what was in that notebook.
I have no idea.
But I thought about it long andhard because I really respect

(10:15):
Randy a lot as a coach.
Like I think he's world-classbut he's unreal.
I've met him a few times.
He's unreal.
But I will say this what I tookaway from it was what I now do
with our juniors.
So when we're very fortunate,we have the rocket mortgage
classic in Detroit and it tendsto be kind of a off, off week

(10:37):
kind of event.
So you have a lot of players inthe field that maybe aren't
household names, right?
So what we do is for our juniorplayers is we assign a random
player.
Wow, they have to go and followthat player for the day oh my
God, that's amazing and theyhave to write in their
observations for what thatplayer does well, what they need

(10:57):
to work on.
Da, da, da, da da, because inmy mind that's what I think
maybe Randy had that kid doing.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
Right, that's so awesome.
It's like your fantasy of whatit was.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:08):
Here's what kills me.
Okay, here's the layer comingback on what we're already
talking about.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
Nobody ever writes the obvious.
If we watch the tour players,if we watch the best amateurs in
the world, if we watchcollegiate players even good
high school players they have aroutine, absolutely they do the
same thing every time, everytime, every time, every time,

(11:38):
every time.
They do not break theseroutines for anything and that
always gets missed.
And going back to you sayingeverybody can think like a pro
if we give them organization asto how to hit a shot and create
a process, then there's time toactually go through that mental

(11:59):
thinking.
But I feel like most people areso busy and preoccupied with a
bunch of nonsense that theynever even have a chance to
remember what they were supposedto remember.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
That's right, mike.
Let's spend the next eight anda half hours talking about
routine, because I think wecould, I couldn't.
I mean it's it's absolute magicmana from heaven the way you're
describing that and it'ssomething very exciting because,
under pressure, what I'vediscussed so much with the tour

(12:32):
professionals that I work withis the courage to pull the
trigger on time.
Keeps them on that internalclock in the routine.
Their body is ready to hit theshot like a stopwatch within a
quarter second probably, it'sprobably less.
And when you know my only jobis to follow my routine, stay

(12:55):
committed to the shot, get overit and pull the trigger on time
with courage.
Courage is the performanceskill to play elite golf an.
You see, you're with a clinicalpsychologist who's done 18 000
therapy sessions and nowhundreds, or who knows how many
you know mental coachingsessions and the idea that you,

(13:17):
your job is for that club tomove on time and that's your
only job, is how we start toplay free and liberated golf and
it's very exciting when you canget somebody.
One guy would say I'm on atightrope, doc, I'm on a
tightrope all the time, andwe're talking about like

(13:39):
expanding that tightrope to likea beautiful, concrete
foundation and he's starting toembrace this idea that his job
is to follow his routine, whichis fairly tight actually, and
then pull the trigger on time.
And that's why watching golf isso beautiful, like it's almost
like dance, like your brainexpects the club to move and it

(14:02):
does, and all the peoplelistening and everybody playing
can develop a better routine.
Let's talk about it right.
I'm a huge proponent of Vision54.
I love defining that for people.
They don't have to have readthe books.
Everybody knows when I say thedecision box is that space where

(14:22):
you're assessing your lie,you're getting a number, you're
selecting a shot, and I lovethis language.
I think you'll like it.
Once you cross the threshold outof the decision box into the
play box, your job is to get inthere and routine that's why I
do on coursework is as aclinical psychologist, I am a

(14:44):
expert at observing humanbehavior and so my specialty is
the unconscious.
I'm a psychoanalyst and down tothe bodies like waggles and
Mike, the number of looksmatters when you're playing well
, and you're just one nicerelaxed look down and go.

(15:05):
So then I'll say only take onelook each time.
It can get a little fussyinitially because they're
thinking about it.
But the confidence that you cantake from I'm going to get over
the ball, I'm going to take onelook, I like to say drench my
brain with only target as thelast thing, and then pull the

(15:26):
trigger.
My God, it is liberating.
It's the best, and it's the bestpart of what makes it so fun is
that feeling of freedom.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
It's.
I want to dive into this alittle bit.
So it's interesting that youbring that point up, because
what I can tell you fromfirsthand experience, and what I
work with my players on, isabsolutely everybody feels
emotions on the golf course.
Right, you can choose to labelthem how you choose to label

(16:01):
them.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
We'll get into that yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
Right, but at the end of the day, there are energies
that you're going to have tomanage throughout a round of
golf.
So, with that being said,what's really interesting is
that everybody is going to havethese things happen to them
during a round of golf.
There's too many shots, ittakes too long, there's just way

(16:24):
too much time spent for you tobe able to just walk through
this thing without taking anykind of traumas.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Right Like this is this is going to happen and when
?
When we get there I'm going todefine it very easily for the
listeners uh, in two timeframesfuture and past.
So let's keep going and thenwe'll.
I want to give people somethingbeautiful to take, especially
in this realm, yeah, but here'sthe magic.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, here's the true magic, in my opinion when you
start having those thoughts andyou start getting in the way and
you start getting uptightthat's right when these things
occur, instead of immediatelyfeeling shame and panic.
So, instead of feeling shameand panic, the real skill, in my

(17:18):
opinion, is being able tointerject with your active
thought, with your active voice,and being able to say hey, hey,
hey, hang on.
If I forget how to do me, then,yes, those things may happen,
yeah, but and I like this, but Inormally don't like a butt, but
I like this but but if I do myroutine and I follow my process,

(17:42):
I'm so good at doing that thatI can do that, yes, right Now.
Here's where it gets crazy theminute that we decide to focus
on our process and our routineand be in the present versus out
in the future, or out in thepast trying to figure out which
way it's going to go.
We put our Superman cape on andnow nothing can touch us.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
That's the freedom of competitive play, is being able
to step in and go.
I'm not a loser.
I'm not going to come up short.
I don't care how many timesI've not made this happen.
We're going to make it happenright here and right now.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
That's beautiful man Like there's not.
That's a human thing.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
We bonded on, which is the aesthetics of good golf.
It's beautiful to see peopleconduct themselves in this way
and we we said we're going toget deep.
I would say oh watch goes,we're going to hit this in the
water Like that offends the golfgods.
Let's talk about these golfgods.

(18:47):
The golf gods are offering youa chance to be your best self.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
I'm going to get in trouble.
I'm going to get in trouble,you.
You brought it out.
I don't care, I'm going to sayit.
I just got in trouble for notbeing myself on this podcast, so
I'm going to be myself.
I am not attacking religion inany way.
I think it's beautiful, I thinkit's great, I'm all for it.
But you, michael klein, yes,our god, I, I seriously sure I.

(19:16):
Michael dutro, yeah, I'm god.
Yes, you're listening to this.
You're god.
You are God of your own world.
You are God of your own life.
Only you have all the infinitewisdom about you.
Now here's the kicker.
Golf, in my opinion, is a humanbeing's strive for a higher

(19:41):
self.
Absolutely, it is the gatewayto you learning how to access a
higher plane.
Yes, and golf has a reallynasty habit of bringing out
people's lower self.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
That's what I mean by personifying it as it's.
It's it's you, we just got.
We just got canceled, by theway, why I think we're just
getting started.
We just got canceled, by theway, why I think we're just
getting started.
The reality of it is, it'severything you just said.
And what's so interesting, whenyou talk to people in sessions,

(20:15):
right, you give them the spaceconfidentially, privately, to
talk about themselves.
They have their golfer selfthat they relate to, which is
what we're talking about.
They get a chance to actualizethat every time they hit the
ball and we have a relationshipto golf itself.
Right, they'll say golf hatesme, or this or that.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
right, and so they do .
They believe that.
They think they're cursed.
They legitimately think they'recursed.
Well, it's great, or you thinkit's?

Speaker 2 (20:40):
cursed or the well, hopefully we'll get into into
this is they feel they'reentitled to make every 15 footer
right.
They're offended by it, butwhat I would say is, yeah, is.
It doesn't want you to be a sadsack loser.
It wants you to actualizeyourself and developing a solid

(21:01):
routine and following it andhitting the ball when it's time
to hit it with courage, insteadof thinking about where it's
going to go.
That that, really that's thatleaves an indelible mark on
people, um, and it, it creates.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
You know I'll to be a little bit personal.
You know I've had some thingshappen in my life to where, you
know, I lost my dad 20 years ago.
Um, you know, I I struggledwith alcohol.
Not struggled, I was analcoholic.
I haven't drank in 15 years butuh yeah, I mean just, I've had a
lot of things happen that havereally had me down and out,
including, you know, having somehousing situation issues when I

(21:52):
was younger and things likethat.
Yes, because I had won so manygolf tournaments yeah, I know
this sounds crazy, but because Ihad won so many times at that
age, I just kind of knew likehey, I know that things are down
right now, but like I'm goingto pull through because I know

(22:13):
how to close, I know how to getthis done.
You know, and it's like thatthat breeds confidence in all
walks of life and and kind oflifts our spirits.
And I think you know the highsin golf.
If you're a golfer and I knowyou are like, if you're a golfer
man, I I know that, like havingchildren and marriage and those

(22:33):
things are wonderful and goodand great.
But I swear, if you're honestwith yourself, some of your
highest moments in life happenon the golf course, just like.
So do the lowest.
But I mean it's you have torealize like there's a balance
and for every high there's a low, and that's that's what golf
kind of hopefully teaches us isa little bit of regulation.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Regulation and I think what we're trying to do
today is expand people's mindsabout the motivation to play and
what you can get out of it,which it can be to break 80 for
the first time, it can be score,it can be to win titles and you

(23:17):
know sort of the competitive,sort of outcomes and markers of
a great player.
And I think one of the things Iwanted to do with you is
explore this is why do we play?
And why we play is to get achance to actualize ourselves on
any given shot and to makethese memories that we'll never
forget.
And that's why non-golfersdon't get it.

(23:39):
But it's so funny when I openan initial consultation with a
player, I say I do it just likea therapy session, but I just
asked them about their golferself.
I say tell me about your game.
Everybody uses the same word.
It's so funny.
I say when did you get seriousabout the game?
They're like okay, so I was 18.
And then I say tell me aboutmemorable or pivotal moments in

(24:06):
your golfing career.
And this is interesting, it'sworth stating.
As a psychologist, I'm also awell-trained research
psychologist academic.
I've published papers, so Ireally follow the literature on
motor learning, peak performanceand there's very, very valuable
stuff out there and I'm writingabout it in this book.
And there's very, very valuablestuff out there and I'm writing

(24:26):
about it in this book.
And you get as much or moremileage for development from
successes, as well as thetraumas or that scar tissue.
So I always ask them tell meabout your triumphs also,
because this isn't only aboutthe times you three putted on
the last hole you know to notwin, or you lost in a playoff or
something like that.

(24:47):
So the funny thing about golfersis they remember the yardage,
right.
They remember it.
It's just amazing.
But it also is that the way anorganized mind works when you're
a bit of an expert, right, ifyou've done this for years and
thousands of hours, it's notthat surprising.
It's context, specific, right,you have all these cues.
You know what event it was, whatcourse it was, what hole it was

(25:09):
, and yet people can say it was152 yards.
The middle of the fairway pinwas tucked right, there was a
little bit of breeze coming out,but it was, you know, 14 years
ago, and so they know itperfectly.
So in the sessions I can askpeople to tell me about specific
events and shots and so theyknow it perfectly.
So in the sessions I can askpeople to tell me about specific
events and shots and that's howwe sort of get to work through

(25:30):
the emotional side of it,including the scar tissue.
That's not, it makes a deepmark, but you're, you have me on
today and I would say I canwork through those, those sores,
those wounds, with people inthe sessions.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
I don't think.
I mean I'm constantly bombardedwith you know, little Timmy's a
great player, but he doesn'tget it done.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
I have four text messages right now from him,
yeah, and it's just like.
I think it's a skill set right.
It's a skill set that we don'temphasize.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
It's just an unrealistic connecting but it's
an unrealistic expectation onlittle.
Timmy to win.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
Like yeah.
Who gives a shit if littleTimmy wins something when he's
seven years old, like we careabout what he wins when he's 21.
That's right and but it's just.
I feel like so often, man, youknow, I just got back from a
trip over to the UK and playedsome golf over in Scotland and
at the, at the old course of StAndrews or whatnot.

(26:33):
Yeah, and it's just, it's sucha completely different game and
spirit in which it's played yeahand like nobody.
And this is the craziest thingyeah and like nobody.
And this is the craziest thingwhen you walk off that golf
course, if you try to tellsomebody from that area what you
shot, they just look at youlike what's wrong with you, like
the fact that that's the firstthing that comes out of your

(26:55):
mouth when you just walked offof.
That it just kind of shows youlike the almost kind of the how
would I want to say it the theego that golfers have developed
to where we've really becomenarcissistic and it's all about
what we think of the golf courseand how we played the shots and
it's.

(27:15):
It's really I feel like and Ireally have worked on this and
thought about this a lot sincethis trip but I feel like I play
golf through this littlepinhole to where I'm just trying
to figure out my thing and myway, and it's like when I can
get wider and when I can see thewhole course and I can see the

(27:36):
hole next to this one and I canlike take in more of the picture
, it's just so much easier forme to hit those shots I want to
hit, because I'm so much moreaware of the environment and the
things that go missed.
But it's just like I think, likeyou said earlier, like why do
we play golf?
And that's really I don't thinkwe're doing a good enough job

(27:59):
asking people that because, yes,we want to win trophies, yes,
we want to play well, yes, wewant to do our best ever.
Of course, those are all greatgoals, but they're goals.
They're not reasons as to whywe do this.
If those are the reasons and weknow that you're going to win
very, very rarely, you knowyou're going to fail a lot more
in golf and you're going to win.
Then, like that's probably notthe endeavor you want to get

(28:20):
into, If that's what you'reseeking, Maybe get into playing
like you know, I don't knowCandy Crush.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah and look, we're basically at the doorstep of the
it is.
So it's not an empiricallyresearched thing, but the thing
we're talking about is flow.
A lot of people may have evenheard of that book or that
concept.
I'm writing an entire chapterabout this and it's very
specific about what it's likeand I love this.

(28:48):
I'll give people something.
So beautiful is when thechallenge meets the capacity,
there's the opportunity for flow.
Isn't that beautiful?
When the challenge meets thecapacity and skill, there's this
check, because it has to be.
If it's too easy, like candycrush, you don't get into flow.
Like crushing candy, you getinto flow.

(29:11):
You know, holding a littlewedge shot from 72, because it's
so exciting to execute at sucha high level and it is a
challenge, and it's still achallenge to hit the driver's
big.
But we all know, hitting itright in the middle, right up
the middle, is very difficult todo and it's very satisfying.

(29:32):
And so flow is about beingtotally immersed in what you're
doing and executing within yourcapacities and having
opportunities to continue to dothat.
You just want to keep doing it,so you just keep hitting golf
shots.
You're going to be proud of me,you're going to be proud.
The point becomes continuing tohit golf shots and you know and

(29:56):
I know, but let's not lose theimportance of competition and
elite players.
They'll say I had no idea howdeep I was right.
You lose sight of the score andwhere you were because they
were so immersed in the processand so excited to just get up
there and roll another one inand get up and hit another
t-shot because the, the, theflow state, is a feeling of I

(30:17):
could do this forever and I wantto do this forever.
Right, I'm concentrating, but Ihave like endless energy and
all I want to do is keep doingit, and so the score becomes
relevant, it goes into thebackground.
So I want to be proud of you Go.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
It's funny.
So Rick Sessinghaus is a friendof mine and obviously Rick does
a lot of work with Sergey andthe Flowcode team, so I've kind
of been in this for a little bitand I my job at a high level.
If I could get a player to walkup to a short-sighted terrible

(31:05):
situation, bad lie, nothing'sworking for you.
And instead of walking up andhanging their head and going,
man, this shot's tough and I'mgoing to have a hard time.
I need two things to happenhere.
Yep, one, I need them to changethe narrative and I want them
to go.
Hey, I've got an amazingopportunity here to show off how
good I am.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
We call it watch this .
Yeah right, my pro turns to mein the bunker and says watch
this.
And I know they're going tohold it or almost.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Yeah, right, no doubt .
So that's number one.
And then number two is I hangon one sec Number.
And then number two is I hangon one sec.
Number two is I need them to bein a place to where we're at
six breaths per minute.
I'm sorry, six breaths perminute.
Yep, I said that correctly,interesting.
So there is some hard researchon this, okay, and what we know

(31:54):
is that a lot of golfers outthere are breathing just like
every other human being isbreathing.
It's somewhere between 15 to 20breaths per minute, I see.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
And what we know is that through poor breath,
because of poor posture, becauseof poor diets, because of poor
everything, but because of thispoor breath, people are already
entering into fight, flight orfreeze, or pre-entering their
parasympathetic or sympatheticsystem.

Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah and let yep.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
Right.
So, with that being said, wehave got to get to this place,
to where we're creating this boxbreathing.
We've got to create this placeto where the body is able to
regulate itself and we can't bealready triggered up for, oh,
something bad's about to happen.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
So, with that being said, the biggest thing that I
need is I need us to be calm,focused and then using our
breath, and then I need us to gohey, watch this.
And if we can get those thingsto occur I'm not saying that I
guarantee we're in the flowstate in that moment, but we're
at least setting the stage forthat to have the opportunity to

(33:05):
occur, because the hard researchsuggests everything that there
is about flow nobody has a wayof getting into it, but we know
that at about that six breathsper minute, that's where that
happens or has the opportunityfor people to slip into it.
So, by creating the opportunity, by creating the narrative and
the self-belief and theconfidence, like you said

(33:26):
earlier now, we're at leastgoing to see their best, and
they're likely not going to just, you know, leave it short and
do something dumb.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
It's great and I, you know it's really exciting
because I fight, fight or freeze.
You know this is languagethat's taken from trauma
research and I've treated peoplewith back.
You know histories of traumaand psychotherapy for 22 years,
and so the underlying principleof flow code and what you're
describing is, you know,self-regulation right, we have

(33:55):
to be and also a good term iswithin the zone of tolerance.
We have to be within a zonewhere we're not too stressed out
and breathing shallowly andfrankly, panic-stricken and
anxious.
And what's really interestingis we can also have hypoarousal,
which is a sort of withdrawal,and you'll love this.

(34:16):
The spiral sometimes looks likethis lie sucks, this course
sucks.
I hate being here, but you seehow you're sort of withdrawing
and this comes up with playersall the time in the sessions.
It's very interesting that hypoarousal and hyper arousal are
sort of bookends and neither aresort of within the zone of

(34:38):
tolerance where you can performhighly.
Now, breathing is a very goodoption for self-regulation, but
I think part of what I do in mysessions, because I've so much
experience talking about peoplewith their emotions for so many,
you know, for decades isthere's more than one way to
regulate into those six breaths.
And I've even had people saydon't teach me to breathe,

(35:02):
because what they're saying is Ihave another sort of proclivity
or style, and that's why I'mcalled character, sports
psychology with a K, becauseit's the individual.
That's the Greek.
The Greek etymology ofcharacter is individuality.
That's the greek.

(35:22):
The greek etymology ofcharacter is individuality.
And so another beautiful thingto regulate the breathing is
using the body.
So I say use your walk, useyour walk to regulate.
So because the body starts tomimic the fuck, this I don't, I
don't know if I'm allowed to saythat I don't want to be here.
Another bad line the bunker.
So if they can start to slowtheir body and get back into the

(35:44):
rhythm of when they move, whenthey're playing beautiful golf
and in the zone, their breathingchanges.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
For the record.
You see that all the time onthe golf course.
You see it all the time You'llsee somebody make a putt and
they will grab it out of thehole and they'll quick step a
couple of times and then they,like, throw the brakes and start
walking at a more even pace.
You see it all the time.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
So what's exciting about my work in individual
sessions with individual playersis some people are discussing
their breathing and boxbreathing with me and there are
infinite other options for howto do this.
You know it's a really movingone and this is some serious
stuff.
Like you know, I have aconfidentiality, like I can't

(36:29):
disclose some of the people Iwork with, but this is a person
who's winning as a professionaland what we discussed is
gratitude, is a very powerfulemotion.
What do we mean by gratitude?
It's not just I appreciate,it's really feeling into.
My family has sacrificed.

(36:49):
I actually will get tearful ifI do this.
My family has sacrificed somuch for me to be here.
They are so loving and sosupportive of me that you
actually feel inside theinternal tie to, let's say,
grandma, who taught you to play.
And I'll say, gratitudeoverrides any negative emotion

(37:14):
and one of my player, one of myplayer's superpowers she's never
going to tell anybody that shedoes this is she accesses
gratitude to flush out all thestress and negativity and then
she moves on with her.
Because it's very hard, let'sgo from the positive side.
It's not very hard.
It's very powerful to getconnected to how, like, almost

(37:37):
like you feel indebted and sofortunate that you're out there
chasing your dream.
That's the other language wehave.
She is playing professionalgolf.
No fried, no buried lie in abunker is going to override if
she can get back to that channelof appreciation and real
gratitude, which is thesacrifices other people have

(37:59):
made appreciation and realgratitude, which is the
sacrifices other people havemade and it really can flush out
enormous amount of negativeemotion.
So we put this together, whatyou and I are talking about,
that it must be so to play goodgolf and not to make light of
this idea that we just want youto follow your routine to manage
the emotions, everything frombox breathing and getting it

(38:21):
back to six, or using your walk,or using gratitude.
And I'll tell you, the reasonpeople work with me is I got
many, many more tricks up mysleeve for that, which is how do
we develop your style ofself-regulation so you can
weather the ups and downs of around?
And let me, I'll give youanother beautiful, like I'll

(38:44):
just give you a softball.
The main emotions is the pastand the future.
What do I mean?
The future is a don't, don't.
Don't chunk it, don't, leave itshort.
Don't is worry about a futurenegative outcome.
My dissertation, one of myvariables was anxiety.

(39:06):
The components of anxietyempirically are the physical
sensations and worry.
And worry is always in thefuture.
This is what I want everybodyto hear.
I'll say it again Worry in thefuture.
This is what I want everybodyto hear.
I'll say it again Worry.
By definition, the structure ofit is it's future oriented.

(39:27):
Don't go long, don't hit in thebunker.
So if you can catch yourself inthe future and coach yourself
back into what's my lie, what amI doing?
Go back into your routine.
You're managing the future.
You're managing your stress.
The past is about you're goingto love this lost opportunity.
The past let's go deeper isabout grief.

(39:51):
It's I just missed the greenwith a wedge.
This is what kills the elitejunior when nobody cares at the
elite level.
Let's give people a secret.
Nobody cares about missing thegreen from 174 yards, from a
fairway bunker.
It's the easiest shot to committo in the world because

(40:12):
anything near the green clearingthe lip, it's very easy to
accept the outcome.
But, boy, if you're in themiddle of the fairway on a par
five and it is infuriating.
And so what are we saying isyou've now missed an opportunity
and I swear, mike, I'll be likeand that makes you feel how I'm

(40:32):
being serious and I want themto get to.
It makes me feel sad.
I know you're laughing.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
It's true.

Speaker 2 (40:42):
It's true, it does, because missed opportunity is
what makes people angry.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Yeah, you're missing out.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
Anger is a secondary emotion to sadness.
So when they can say I felt sadthat I missed the green,
they're going more towardsacceptance acceptance that I
missed an opportunity.
I had a 14 footer.
I mean everybody knows thisthree putting from 12 feet.
When you hit the green andregulation, you want to die

(41:08):
because you've just squanderedan opportunity.
So let's give people beautifulstuff today, which is the future
is worry, and we want to coaxourself back to the present.
And the past is a missedopportunity which feels like a
loss, which you have to acceptthat you're missed the green

(41:30):
with a wedge and you can see andand coach yourself back to but
watch this, I'll hold the bunkershot.
So we coach ourselves back tothe present.
Primarily, managing worry andloss and missed opportunity and
I got chills, like that ispowerful, like how do you get it

(41:50):
done is the primary,foundational way I speak to
players at every caliber,because this is emotional
language that is human isthrough the future oriented
nature of worry and the pastoriented nature of opportunity
missed.
And think about the cliff right, you're in the middle of a

(42:10):
fairway, you got 92 yards andyou just catch it one groove
thin, a puff of wind and, by bythe way we could talk
strategically.
Uh, back pins with wedges inthe hand is a is an important
thing for professional and eliteplayers to be mindful of, right

(42:30):
, because it's it's like set upto seduce them, to chase those
pins, and often long if you havea hole that has a wedge in your
hand.
Long is often no bueno, it'snot very good.
It's not very good.
So um, except it is anopportunity, so watch that but
but you go watch this, but yougo from, you go from.

(42:53):
I have a great opportunity hereto the oh, I'm short-sighted
that cliff of opportunity, toloss, to recover, to watch.
This is what elite mentalperformance looks like.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah, and I mean it's just so funny though the waves
we go on as golfers.
I mean I specifically rememberI'd played really really well at
the um at the new course at StAndrews and you know, I'd hit
one drive that was just a littlepulled and my caddy thought it

(43:28):
had gotten into the gorse, bush,all right.
So we're walking and I'm justlike in the pit of despair.
Oh, I hit one.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Despair is the best word.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
Right, the pit of despair, right.
Just, I hit one bad drive allday.
It's like the 16th hole orwhatever, like you know, and
it's maybe in the gorse.
Bush, maybe my caddy's like,it's probably in the gorse,
that's what I would guess.
So we're walking up there andI'm in, like the pit of despair.
There's my golf ball.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
And then, yes, right, but this is us, we're doing our
job right, we are capturing thespirit of the emotional right,
the waves right.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
So like I hit the shot and then like play the hole
out, and I'm on the next teebox and I specifically remember
just like what's wrong with you,man, like why are you going on
that kind of?

Speaker 2 (44:18):
ride like, why even?

Speaker 1 (44:20):
even enter like, and it's like I'm a junkie for the
ride, Like I like the rollercoaster.
Um, you know, I, I think I justlike the highs and lows so.
I don't know, call me crazy.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
No, you're not crazy.
And again, this is why I talkabout style in my work with
people and that's it's.
Character in the sense of eachplayer is different and people
idle like a car at differentlevels, and I like to be playful
, like you have the bookends ofDJ and Bryson.

(44:52):
Bryson is like what's thebarometric pressure?
Like he feeds off information,right, and you'd be like I would
be exhausted walking off thefirst tee and that caddy must be
a saint.
No, and I would love to meet.
I mean, I think he's a geniusbecause he, he loves that, that

(45:13):
intensity, and he feeds off itFor sure.
I don't know Dustin Johnson,but I feel like he's like I want
to tell, give me a number andtell me where to hit it right.
He, he just keeps it that'sexactly correct right and it's
like a pull, like he's barelyalive, but it's not exciting
that they're both majorchampions.
So my job is to draw out what isthat person's style of play to

(45:38):
get it done.
There's no one correct way to doit and if you're a junkie and
you realize I play better atsort of like a narrower
amplitude of emotional, like anice word valence.
The valence is positive ornegative, the intensity is the
sort of amount quantitatively.

(45:59):
So if you're saying if we wantto sort of idle lower, right, we
start to try to get them offthe roller coaster, but if they
turns out that they love, likethey feed off the information
and a lot of emotion sometimesthat keeps them interested and
motivated, and so that's whereit really becomes fun for me,

(46:21):
where we're sort of elicitingand developing their style of
play and one of the things wedecide that's never talked about
, though it's never talked about, doc, like nobody talks about
that and like, if there's onething that I would like to
hammer real quick, I'm sorry tocut you off a little bit there
but this is important, but thethe idea that for a junior

(46:46):
player to be elite or successfulis they have to walk around
like Tiger Woods.
I like everybody should.
Every one of those should giveme a call and it's.
It is so thrilling for them.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
So here's here's why I bring that up, though yes I
have seen dustin johnson outsideof golf.
Yeah, dustin johnson outside ofgolf does not match dustin
johnson inside of golf.
I'm not surprised and I thinkhonestly it's why he doesn't
connect and love golf, because Ithink it's like taking somebody

(47:22):
on add and giving them add meds, like they don't like that.
Like I think that's kind ofwhat's happened to dj over the
years is that he was kind oftold to, if you go back to early
dj yeah like we all.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
I want to show my.
I am a player and a fan, rightHitting big slings hooks right
Before he started hitting fades,hooks, hooks.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
DJ Like dude.
You want to talk about anengine and where it idles.
Yeah, DJ's idled all the way atmax.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
Really, oh my God, you are killer.
This is so interesting Wow.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
Dude, go back and find old DJ.
He's bouncing up and down thefairways and, dude, he's like
making either a birdie or atriple Like it's nowhere in
between and he's having the timeof his life.
Yeah, oh, wow.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
And.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
I think they crushed his spirit.
Man, oh man, you just like I'vebeen around that guy enough
like enough, and I, I, I like topride myself on thinking I have
a good, good idea of what goodlooks like.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
I mean I think Dustin Johnson should have won 15
majors.
I mean he was the elite athleteon tour for so long Once he hit
those wedges, man yeah.
But it's just like I think theytook the fun away from it.
Like I don't think, because,dude, the only thing that guy
does is is ride around on his,on his boats and fish.

(48:52):
But if you watch him fish, dude, he's emotional, he's spirited,
he's idling high Like it'sengaging for him.
And then he has to go to thegolf course.
It's walk row.
Okay, where do I hit it?
Okay, like I just think it'sreal.
And I I don't think that that'sthe only situation where the

(49:13):
way they're forced to behavedoesn't match them.
And anytime we're put into anenvironment to where we have to
pretend to be somebody we're not, nobody likes that feeling.
And if that becomes your dailylife, like what a rough I'm
going to blow your mind for meas a player and I play.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
I'm 52.
I play in New Jersey stateevents.
You know I'm not really.
You know I'm not really goodenough to play against the
college kids anymore, right,these are all Division I kids in
, like the New Jersey Am, but Iplay and nobody wonders why I'm
there.
It's fun.
My event is the pre-seniorright.
That's my age cohort.
There's a lot of really goodgolfers in New Jersey and so I

(49:54):
played really well in that lastyear.
And one of the things I'velearned is I'm high.
I'm high energy enthusiasmHopefully you're getting it
today and so are the listeners.
But when I play, I think it'sfun for me to dial it down and
almost like methodical, becauseI'm exhausting myself all the

(50:16):
time because of who I am.
So I get to be a differentversion of myself and I talk to
people, I listen, right, so thatthis is my time during the
tournament.
I mean I'm social but I don'thave to be paying attention to
their shots Like this is my dayto compete and it's my time and
I focus only on myself, on mygame.

(50:37):
I a good, you know, I know theetiquette and so a more plodding
, quieter doc is.
I find it so pleasurablebecause I get an outlet to
myself where I play better too,because this is funny if I, if I
get enthused, if I startplaying well, I go oh my god,
golf is so fun, golf is the bestthing ever.

(51:00):
I love life, I want to live forlike, I'm in the like, why do I
have to die?
So I'm like, so I swear.
So it's also showing.
Zone of tolerance is valence.
You can get too positive, youcan get too high, yeah for sure
I want to call my daughter rightnow and tell her how much I
love her.
And they're like dude, you gotto hit this tee shot, so I go

(51:23):
off the rails.
So I actually find thatfrustrating that as soon as I
start to get into the zone I gooff the rails.
Positive, but this is so fun.
We're getting back to you wisheverybody heard this which is
you don't have to be Tiger Woodsand a k-hole steely.
You need to figure out who youare as a golfer.
What makes it fun, how can youcompete and succeed?

(51:47):
I actually think we should goto confidence next, because the
confidence thing around Tiger is, you know, it's like walking
around like I'm great becauseI'm Tiger Woods, which is a
great feeling.
You know, and I know not everyperson playing on tour naturally
has that sort of alphaconfidence and that doesn't mean

(52:08):
Very few.
So does that mean you can'tcompete at the highest level?
No, but you have to know whatmakes you great.
You have to.
So that's what I talk aboutwith my players I'm great
because and it's I love you.
It's not everybody can say I'mgreat because I'm me right, like
they're, like I'm great becauseI'm I'm me right, like I'm
Tiger Woods or I'm whoever, andwe're not picking on him.

(52:31):
It's a wonderful, it's, it'sthe most powerful thing to have
in the world.
But what I get my pros to startto discuss is I work hard and
often the person who's not likealpha confidence.
By the way, this is true in thewomen's game too.
Some women just walk around andsay I'm amazing because I'm the
best player who ever lived andit is a shield for them to some

(52:51):
extent, for sure.
But the idea that I'm also veryhonest with myself, I'm
introspective, right, I'mself-aware.
I'm great because I'm going tonotice when something important
happens on the course and I canbring it into my sessions and I
can make use of this in my game.
So I love expanding theplatform.

(53:13):
I call it the mountain ofconfidence, even at self-belief.
I have a tour player.
She loves this idea that it'sher job.
I'm a professional golfer and Igo about my business like a pro
.
I get up, I do my workouts, Igo to the course, I execute my
shots, I do my preparation, I domy practice rounds.

(53:35):
You'd be like well duh, like no, no.
That's a source of pride andidentity, which is I go about my
business like a tourprofessional Cause.
That's what.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
I do.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
That's what I do.
And golf for her, golf is life,right she's.
She's one of these people whereit's, it's, she's chasing her
dream and it's in her marrow,like at a very, very deep level.
Done it since she's a like at avery, very deep level.
Done it since she's a girl, andso she loves this, that I don't
have to walk around and pretendI'm not who I am, which is, I'm

(54:07):
great because I'm me, but I canbe great for all these other
reasons.
And we're building thisplatform of confidence for her.
She knows her routine, likewe've done so much work together
on different parts of her game,so her confidence grows because
it's the way she goes about herbusiness and what she does.
She loves this.

(54:27):
So we are just opening,hopefully, a bigger conversation
, which is you don't have to beDJ or Bryson.
Oh, this is what we wanted toget to.
Which is, you, asked me, like,how can we help people be
themselves and not play withfear?
And we got there, we did, wegot there, isn't it beautiful?

(54:50):
The message we're sending isyou have to be who you are,
which is like actualization,right, you have to be who you
are and express yourself at yourin like the best ways you can
to play your best golf, and thatis both, I think I say,
exciting and, in some ways,challenging, like maybe we can,

(55:13):
we're going to keep talkingabout this.
Which is how?
And mike what I love about mikeand I owe a debt of gratitude
to him forever.
Which is how?
And Mike, what I love aboutMike and I owe a debt of
gratitude to him forever is he'ssaying you have to swing like
yourself, yeah, which I love andyou love it.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
I absolutely love it.
I do, At the end of the day,like.
This is like going back toconfidence, a little bit Like
where I struggle as a coach andwhere I fail my players
routinely is that they believeand they won't be honest and
they won't tell you this, but Iknow they do but they believe

(55:49):
that they have to go out andexecute flawless precision and
play perfect golf to win.
They believe that and the simpletruth of it is and you've
played enough good golf and I'veplayed enough good golf and
we've won golf tournaments andyada, yada, yada We've done
these things and I can promiseyou we can both pick those

(56:11):
rounds apart and we didn't hitevery shot perfect, Absolutely.
So at the end of the day, it'slike you have to create the
belief that you can win withoutyour best stuff.
I think we're seeing Scottyreally start leaning into that
now.
You know, I think that's wherehe is and I haven't said this.
I've been very reluctant to saythis, but he is starting to

(56:34):
learn how to become Tiger andhe's starting to do Tiger things
, and when Tiger learned how towin with his C game, it was
lights out.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
Think about your confidence level.
If you can win when you're notplaying your best, that's when
your confidence is at the peak,not when you're flushing every
shot.
I agree and I talk about thisquite a bit with players which
is embracing they love this.
Most people have already saidsaid embrace your inner seve
like hit it all over the planet.
I I was working with a very,you know, elite college great

(57:05):
saying in?
yeah, I was in.
I was very, very a world-rankedcollege player.
I said how do you feel when youflush it all day and the other
girl slaps it around and likebeats you by one?
And she says I hate that girl?
And I said, what if you werethat girl?

(57:29):
And she was like so one of thethings I do with elite players
is differentiate.
This is important for goodplayers.
They conflate, they equate howthey hit it with how they played
.
So the first task to becomeTiger-like, to win without your

(57:51):
best stuff, is to separate ballstriking from how you played
from how you played.
And so I even will often opensessions Look, this is with
players that you know, eliteplayers and professionals to
help them see that we want tounderstand.
I love when they flush it andwe we aspire to hit every shot
good for the rest of our life.

(58:11):
That's, that's from the booksimplicity, that it is possible.
You have to believe that youcan hit every shot.
If you see it clearly, take itfrom your repertoire, pull the
trigger with courage.
For the rest of your life youcan hit perfect golf shot every
time, because it's true.
And how did you play is aseparate question, because that
also gives them space to.

(58:32):
How did you play?
For us is how did you do withyour mental game?

Speaker 1 (58:38):
when I think about amazing things that I've heard
yeah this is up there.
Oh, you like that this.
Yeah, I'm going to tell youwhen I think you're really going
to like so, sean, I was talkingto Sean Foley about my favorite
player in the world with JustinRose.
I love Rosie, I love.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
Justin, I have a picture of keep going.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
Yeah, love Justin Rose.
But I was talking to Sean andwe were talking about Rosie.
Yeah, and he said that theywere working together and Rosie
had just come off the golfcourse and was like really
demonstrative.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
Nice Ready, do I like Rosie?
This has been printed and Iwant to frame it and look at the
look on that man's face.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
He's got the best face in golf.
Man Just steal the focus, Imean come on I love it.
yeah, so sean says rosie comesoff the course like super kind
of unhappy with things and hegoes straight to the short game
area and he's like chipping it.
And sean goes over to like seewhat's going on and Rosie's like

(59:42):
I'm the worst effing chipper inthe world.
I suck at this.
I'm so bad, like and just islike really un-Rosie, like and
being very demonstrative abouthis like chipping and pitching
Right.
So anyway, like Sean was like Ididn't think it was that bad.
So like he went over and pulledthe strokes, gained report right
, because you know, back in theday they just printed them off

(01:00:03):
for everybody.
So he went and pulled thestrokes, gained and found out
that Justin Rose was the numberone chipper and pitcher of the
golf ball in the world.
So he walks over to Rosie andhe goes hey, rosie, you're kind
of good at this man.
And Rosie looks at him and goes, huh, I'll be damned.
And.
And Rosie looks at it and goes,huh, I'll be damned.
And I just kind of went backand like he was fine after that,
like it wasn't an issue anymore.

(01:00:25):
Like but it's just like we havesuch an emotional connection,
Right, and like let's say thatyou know you're trying to,
you're trying to shoot under paron 18 and you hit a good drive
and then you just kind of chipit.
I'm sorry you miss it, Just ashort side, Right, but it's fine

(01:00:46):
.
You can get it up and downPretty straightforward chip and
you just kind of flub one.
You're going to think you're aterrible pitcher and chipper of
the golf ball for the next sixmonths.
Yeah, Right, and it's likethat's just not true.
You maybe you pitched one inearlier in the round, whatever,
Right, Like at the end of theday, like people have emotional

(01:01:07):
reactions to golf shots and theygenerally base how they feel
afterwards on those reactions, Ithink.
So, long story short.
I think that you know one ofthe things that really bugs the
shit out of me and I've talkedto Lou Stagner a lot, Um and and
one of the things that I don'tunderstand and nobody's been
able to give me an answer onthis about, is I don't think

(01:01:31):
there's a single golfer on theplanet who would disagree with
the idea that if they kept somestats, it would help them get
better at golf.
I don't think anybody woulddisagree with that comment.
However, Arcos has to give awaytheir sensors for free to get
people to even try it, becausenobody will keep stats about

(01:01:51):
their golf game Nobody.
You have to bribe the juniors.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
One of the things you see in elite players is
enormous discipline and passion.
That's true.
Seeing elite players isenormous discipline and passion
and that's true and I'm justsaying what you do see in junior
golfers who one of my guys justshot 67 in his county, beat he
beat, he had the lowest round,obviously right in the entire
county by like five shots, buthe's so disciplined, he's so

(01:02:20):
passionate like he keeps hisstats right there.
They're very hard workers indifferent ways and one of the
things you see is enormousdetermination and work ethic in
in great players I mean duh butit's not the, it's not the
simple stats either.

Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
We're not talking about fairways at green.
No, no, he logs every, he logsevery shot after and but it
would be wonderful if we couldbroaden that to people to not
have to spend an hour.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
you know he logs every shot and here's why that's
helpful though, if we couldbroaden that to people to not
have to spend 30 minutes loggingevery shot.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
It takes five minutes .
There's some great stuff youcan use.
Now.
It's really gotten powerful.
It does all the analytics foryou.
It gives you all theinformation.
It's wonderful, but here's whyI say this yeah, the thing that
I love so much about this dataanalysis okay is one of the ones
I like to use is Clipped.
It's a great platform If you'reinterested in keeping some

(01:03:08):
information.
Clipped is very good.
But Clipped gives you basicallyfive scores okay.
It gets you an overall playerquality score.
Okay.
It gives you a driving approachoff the tee, I'm sorry, around
the green and putting, and thoseare your categories.
So your overall score, let'ssay, is a tour average, 100.
But then when we look atdriving, let's say you're a 110.

(01:03:31):
Okay, well.
Then when we look at approach,maybe you're a 90.
Okay.
And then when we look at, let'ssay, chipping and pitching,
you're an 87.
And then you're like 112,putting whatever Right, you're
an 87, and then you're like 112putting whatever right.
But that's how we get to who youare, yeah, and now the thing is
it's like okay if you are ahundred tour player average

(01:03:51):
right, but you're a 90 driver ofthe ball and then you miss four
fairways that round and come inand say I'm a terrible driver
of the car.
Like that's not accurate.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
Right, and one of the things I would do in sessions
is I help people see that.
That's a feeling.
I felt like I played badlytoday.
I felt like I drove it.
Feelings are emotions andemotions feel true.
It's you're in the grip of anemotion.
I suck at golf, I'm the worstchipper Feels true and what you

(01:04:44):
want and I want is for people tobe know good care of your game
and yourself as a golfer.
You can conclude I suck atchipping for six months and
that's a tragedy, right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Here's what I want you to do.
I have a research project foryou I want you to do.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
I got it ready.
Yeah, here's what we're goingto do.

Speaker 1 (01:05:01):
Okay, we're going to go to like three or five or how
many ever we want to go to, butwe're going to go to PAT sites.
Now, you might not know what aPAT is.

Speaker 2 (01:05:10):
Oh, I know what a.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
PAT is.
You know what.
It is Okay, of course.
It's the only time in golf thatI think it exists where the
golfer actually knows beforethey tee off what they have to
shoot, and I would love to studythe effect that that
information has on people.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
Wow, Wow.
I thought you were going to sayyou and I are going to clip to
our our a few rounds and comeback.

Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
No, no, no, I want to literally I want to go to a PAT
.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
How are we?
What are we?
How are we going to get thedata?

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
I don't know.
But I'm saying like I want,like here's what happens.
You show up to the golf courseand for the first time in your
life, somebody tells you youhave to shoot 78, 75 or 78, 77
to become a tour or a tour or aPGA member.
Sorry, right, that's that'swhat happens.

(01:06:11):
And people just absolutely losetheir minds because all of a
sudden there's a number in frontof them.
That is a problem, because ifyou are using stats, or if you
have a handicap, or if you haveany information or have even
seen yourself play golf before,when you go to a golf course,
you should establish like, hey,if I go out here today based off
what I know about me today, andhow I slept last night and how

(01:06:34):
I feel right now and blah, blah,blah.
I should be able to shootbetween this score and this
score.
I should be able to shootbetween this score and this
score.
Yes, like we should havedefined targets for what's going
to happen and so many peoplejust go out there and it gets
going really well or it getsgoing poorly and they just kind
of go for the ride and likethat's where I think so many

(01:06:57):
golfers really struggle is thatthey kind of take it as it comes
once again, versus kind ofbeing prepared and maybe having
a plan and maybe like going anddoing a little bit of a debrief
and then kind of understandinghow we performed in totality,
versus just basing it off of howwe feel about it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
Yeah, yeah, I mean the PA too.
I mean we really this is agreat.
It's really a fun idea.
Maybe we could brainstormoffline about it.
You know, one of the thingsyou're pointing to is for the
competitive player collegeplayer and beyond into the
professional game is in my workas a mental coach.

(01:07:37):
I'm often helping club playersestablish, at the shot level, a
better routine that looks morelike a professional golfers.
And so they they play bettergolf, right.
They they do execute shotsbetter, and most elite players
are elite players because theyare good athletes, right,
they're gifted in some ways, andwhat we're saying is their

(01:07:59):
routine is very clean, theyvisualize shots very well, they
pick shots, they can execute,and so that's fun.
And one of the ecosystems Ihave is it's right over the
course of, you have at the golfshot level and then you have the
golf round level.
So that includes theself-regulation of loss and
worry and stuff like that.

(01:08:20):
And so when people get goingwell or poorly, a phrase I
really love to anchor people isyou're there to play the
architect, play the architect.
The score doesn't even exist.
Am I five under?
Am I five over?
If this is a hole?
And this is golf IQ.
This is wisdom.

(01:08:41):
It's very interesting and youknow, this hole cause I did my
practice round is begging you tohit driver and it really is
asking you to hit five iron.
So the discipline to to lay upand let's use decade, let's say
it really isn't enough room tohit driver.

(01:09:01):
Your job is to play the course.
What is the hole telling you todo to make the best score that
eliminates the field, thateliminates having to play
flawless golf and pretend youneed to shoot 63 every day,
which nobody does.
I love that.
People love this idea thatyou're you're it's like oh,

(01:09:27):
golf's you against you, it's youagainst you is part of the
skillset, and then it's alsoabout your wisdom and strategy
to play the architect and so forsure, if I get so four you
still have.
And I do like a lot not allowingencouraging people, cause this
is what great players do.
I call them field marshals.
They love knowing they have apar five on 10.
There's a wedge in their handon 13.

(01:09:48):
Another par five there's areachable par four right.
So they see opportunities andthey're sort of plotting their
way through the course, nottrying on the other holes, but
it gives them that way stationthat oasis, that trying on the
other holes, but it gives themlike that way station that oasis
, that I have opportunitiescoming up and I can make up some
ground and I have to be reallysharp and disciplined on these

(01:10:12):
tough holes, and so it lengthensit and it makes it more like
chess, which is I'm here playingchess against the architect and
I think that it helps people tohave a style of managing a
round and not just a shot level?
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:10:29):
Yeah, I mean, there's a difference between hitting a
ball and playing a shot, right?

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Like a massive difference.
Hopefully we've hit this.
You know we've run that cordmany times today.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
So it's, you know I think it's funny because you
know I think so often, you know,maybe you go to the driving
range and you have a warmupsession and you know you get
your stock shot kind of workingfor you Right, and you're like,
okay, cool, I got what I'm goingto do.
And then we kind of march overthere to the T yeah, where I
think, where I think maybethings go a little amiss, for a

(01:11:02):
lot of people is in the processof, you know, getting from
hitting the ball to playing golf.
They never really flip thatswitch, yeah, and they, they
kind of go out to the golfcourse and forget the lie and
forget where the pen is andforget the wind and forget
everything.
And I'm just going to force mything onto this target and like,

(01:11:26):
so I can't come off of itbecause I'm just in love with
the whole situation over there.
But you know, when I went outand played the new course, uh, I
had this like really old gruffscottish caddy exactly what I
wanted.

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):
He was so awesome like it's a big part of the
experience over there.

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):
Yeah, yeah, but he didn't like this was a real one
like he didn't play around.

Speaker 2 (01:11:46):
He knew what he was doing yeah, like a real gruff
one.

Speaker 1 (01:11:49):
So we're like maybe four, five holes into this and
I'm playing just fine and he'shappy that he's not in the gore.
So you know, everything's goingfine and I I miss this screen.
I just kind of, like you know,it kind of hits a little knob
that I didn't see and it gets alittle off the green.
I got this little like pitchshot.
So I grab a hat, he's got mybag and I take the uh sand wedge

(01:12:10):
out of the bag and I kind oflay the face open a little bit
and I'm getting ready to kind offly it in there with some spin
and kind of stop it near thevery Americanized golf shot.
Right, yeah, right.
So I'm kind of sitting there.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
What are you doing, lad?

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
Yeah, so I'm kind of sitting there and I'm thinking
about it and I'm kind of goingthrough it and I go, hey, come
here and he comes back and Igrab my gap wedge and I play it
back in my stance because I kindof see like I could hit this
shot, that I know how to hit andwant to hit.
But want to hit but likethere's a way, easier shot, just

(01:12:43):
bump it and run it in there.
Man, like you don't need totake on the chance that that
doesn't spin and catch the greenthe way you think and like, and
I just kind of hit this littlebump shot.
That was really nice.
It almost went in just kind offoot from the hole in the caddy
at like literally we're walkingto the next team.
He's like I lad, that was asmart decision, like you know,
like and gave me like the ruband like actually is that like

(01:13:04):
the?

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):
best.
Is it not the best feeling inthe world to get a compliment
from a caddy overseas?

Speaker 1 (01:13:10):
yeah, because they know my own version of that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
Yeah, yeah I just I really hit it nicely in very
windy conditions in ireland.
The guy put his hand on myshoulder I didn't put very well
that day and he looked me in theeye and he said you hit a nice
ball, michael.
I was like I'm not.
I want this feeling to lastforever, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
I wasn't going to say , I wasn't going to tell anybody
this, but I'll tell you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
Your psychoanalyst is drawing out your deeper.

Speaker 1 (01:13:42):
Draw it out so, believe it or not, I kid you not
.
We actually had the flightsbooked.
We were supposed to go tohimenji, japan, in april.
Wow, and the reason we weregoing was to tour the mirror
facility.
Nice, so like it's very oldworld.
It's unreal.

(01:14:02):
It's like a of all the placesthat I would like to go in the
world.
This was it right like.
This is my little dream.
I've watched a video of theplace 15 times, so so in my mind
when and where I, I practicelike hard for like three months
and I'm thinking to myself likeif I get into that room with

(01:14:23):
Mirasan and he's just having mehit, like I'm not going to
dishonor my family, I'm going toget the blade and I'm staying
in the blade, I'm not lettingthem take me out of the blade.
So like I just had this, like Iwant to get to this moment in
time where I'm there withMirasan in that room and he's
just crouched and he gives younothing.
You know what I mean?

(01:14:44):
Just nothing.
And I just wanted to do that sobad.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
And then not even an eyelid nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:14:51):
And then unfortunately, obviously you
know, the trip got canceled, Uh,and then obviously he just
passed away, which is terrible,Um, so we're not going to get to
do that to your point like yeahreal, you know, I, I kind of
like this, you know, saying realrecognizes real.
Yeah, you know, and and when,when you get that rub from
somebody that you respect, it'slike there's not a better

(01:15:12):
feeling and and definitely Ithink, for our souls as golfers,
having an old, you know,grizzled caddy from from the
motherland give you the wink islike makes you feel pretty,
pretty good.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
It's better than good .
It's better than most.
I mean, it's not as good as itis.
Yeah, it makes me think ofsomething real recognizes, real.
This really is a thing.
Let's say you're an elite juniorplayer, you're, you're, you're,
you're, you know you're.
You're on your way to playcollege golf.
You're known in your community,right, you're known.
Of course I'm, I'm gonna say itand I know, you know this is

(01:15:47):
true.
And you're, let's say, you'rejust practicing at the range,
some like dad who's to help.
But can you believe?

(01:16:07):
Remember, I'm a therapist times20 years.
I end up, what is mentalcoaching?
You're saying what do you do?
I said I help people politelybut firmly.
Tell this man that they have aninstructor.
They appreciate that he wantsto help, but you know they're
gonna.
They're gonna gonna carry ontheir practice session, right,

(01:16:29):
it's like they need to know hownot to get drawn into a
conversation for 32 minutes witha grownup giving them swing
advice and this guy's like aplus four handicap at 17.
It's really fascinating.
So what I'm saying is I gowherever we need to go and the
the management of your, of thesocial environment, or some I

(01:16:53):
often will.
This is actually gospel when Igo into a session with an elite
player, I always first say howare you?
This is important and it'sintentional because they're a
person first and a golfer second.
And once you, what, if what'sthe only thing?
People say hey, sammy, what'dyou shoot?

(01:17:14):
All the matters?
And they.
I think it's a very importantsignal that I'm interested in
them as a person first and thatobviously we're there to get
into everything.
And they themselves can sort ofreduce themselves to the last
thing they shot.
And there's lore, right, evenRory, saying for too long I

(01:17:36):
carried around what I recentlyshot.

Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
But we talk about compartmentalization a lot with
that right and it's you know Ialways use the analogy of your
head is kind of the attic, andin that attic is a lot of years
of boxes of things from you knowthe past and one of the things
that I think is important withthe young people and I really

(01:18:03):
don't think you can teach thisskill early enough to your kids.
But you have a big treasuretrunk up there in that attic and
it's locked and it's like thebox and that box inside of it
contains your self-worth and youhave to keep that box in its

(01:18:23):
own corner in the attic.
And then the box that saysgolfer, the box that says
brother, sister, mother,whatever right.
Don't remove all the other boxes, right?
Nope, they stay in their ownlittle corners, right, and we
keep the boxes separated.
But we can blend some of theboxes from time to time, but the

(01:18:43):
one we can never blend andnever open is that
self-confidence box.
Like we have to hang on to thatand like I always tell players
I don't give a shit how scaredyou are on the golf course you
need to be able to tell yourselfin the moment that you've done
this for a long time, you're notgoing to forget how to do it
all of a sudden and you know howto hit a golf shot, like hit

(01:19:05):
the golf shot right, the onlyway that do it.

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
Talk about mental game.
We're talking about mental gametoday.
What's great mental gameincludes?
You can do this, tellingyourself you can do this, you
Telling yourself you can do this, you've done it a thousand
times is elite mental game.
You know why?
Because the best model that Ihave found so far is called

(01:19:31):
Optimal by Gabrielle Wolf out ofUNLV, and she's extensively
studied what variables actuallymatter in peak performance
across motor learning pursuits,and that includes golf.
It includes golf, tennis.
She's tested everything, and sothe variable that comes out is

(01:19:53):
positive expectancy you can dothis.
People say right, becausethey're so scared.
What we're talking about todayis how do you perform under real
conditions?
And they are terrified andsaying you can do this, you've
hit a ball, done this a thousandtimes, I'm going to pick my
target, I'm going to see theshape and, by the way, everyone

(01:20:26):
sees shapes slightly differently, which is also fun.
In the sessions.
There's individual style interms of that and I'm going to
try to get to that right.
It's really fun to discuss andthat telling yourself I can do
this and then do it the way youdo it and get over it and do it,
is excellent.
That's a very good way tomanage pressure and nerves.

(01:20:49):
You say state the obvious.
How much more obvious could itbe?
I'm asking myself to dosomething.
I'm very good at that.
I've done a thousand, 10,000times and now I'm going to do it
.
And that's really powerfulstuff.
It's not just positive thinking, it's affirming a positive
expectancy.
It's bigger than positivethinking.

Speaker 1 (01:21:10):
And so I love.
I love auto racing, I love anykind of sports competition, I
love ballet, I love gymnastics,I love it all Like yeah when I
look at performance, performanceis performance, is performance.
You can play a musical piecethat's a performance.
You can give a salespresentation that's a
performance.

(01:21:30):
You can do a job interviewthat's a performance.
Like performance is performanceis performance to me,
absolutely.
So the thing that I always findinteresting is I'm really a big
eye guy, like looking atsomebody's eyes, right and where
they kind of seem like they areand I was really drawn to this

(01:22:03):
considered still to be the mostdangerous track and the players
are fairly aware that, like ofall the tracks that something
might go bad, suzuka is kind ofthe one.
Yeah, so long story short.
Uh, prior to the suzuka race,you know they were showing all
the drivers getting ready to getin the cars and like lando
norris always kind of looks,kind of like child not not I
don't want to say childish, butchildlike in terms of like he
doesn't like if you saw him onthe street you wouldn't assume

(01:22:26):
he's an f1 driver, but like hedownright looked afraid.
Oh, like, actually lookedafraid, and a few of the other
like just nobody lookedconfident.
Yeah, but the funny thing isand this is why I love auto
racing so much and football andanything to where they put on a
helmet.
Yeah, when they show the samepeople's eyes 10 minutes later

(01:22:46):
with the helmets on and theminside the car, there's no fear.

Speaker 2 (01:22:50):
Right, cause they're doing the thing they're meant to
do.
That's right.

Speaker 1 (01:22:53):
Yeah, like they've recognized that there's fear and
there's potential for things,like they've already.
They're done with that.
We're into performance stateand now we're focused on winning
this race and nothing bad isgoing to happen because I'm
going to execute, I'm going toget to that corner first, like
and I think that they talk aboutthat a lot and so many of these
race car drivers and so manylike NFL players are relatively

(01:23:18):
nice guys with no helmet,relatively nice guys with no
helmet, but then you put ahelmet on them and they turn
into something completely elseand that's accessing that
ability to be in thatperformative state, however that
looks.
And I always say you got tofake it till you make it.
If you've never won somethingand you're trying to win
something, you can't say, well,I've done this before, that's
not going to work because youhaven't.

(01:23:39):
But you have to kind of be alittle delusional, I think, and
kind of fake it till you make it, if you will.
And that's where I think a lotof young players, you know oh, I
don't have my perfect swingtoday, oh, I just made a bogey,
oh, it's just not going to work,no, no, no, no, no, we got to.
I'm going to turn this around.
I'm going to hey, let let's getit it's.

(01:24:03):
You got to keep kind ofprodding yourself to do better.
You can't, you can't to go backto what we talked about in the
beginning.
We can't kind of delve intothat lower self.
We got to keep trying to accessthat higher self and perform at
a higher level.

Speaker 2 (01:24:13):
Absolutely.
And you know I would be remissif I didn't go over something
because it's a bedrock of of howI'm doing coaching with players
, Because the weird thing is,once you're in that car it's
still very dangerous but you'redoing your thing and it's in
this like continuous right, youknow.
And golf is weird because youhave all this time between the
shots you have to sort ofreinitiate.

(01:24:35):
I'm capable of that performancemindset and that's what makes
golf kind of cool, right, butit's difficult to do.
And so for me the bestdefinition of confidence in golf
comes from a simplepsychological construct called
agency, and agency is a feelingthat you're up to the task

(01:24:57):
that's before you, so I'mcapable of executing what's
before me.
That that's meaningful, right,like I'm capable of walking.
That's not what we mean.
We don't have to deal withconfidence around walking.
But the reason it's soimportant to select a shot from
your repertoire that you canactually execute is it spikes
confidence because you have afeeling that you can actually

(01:25:21):
execute that shot.
And so, down the stretch, ifthey have to be delusional or
fake it, I love giving them thisthing, which is it's a playful
thing, but it I mean it how toshoot 65 every day for the rest
of your life.
Well, I'm going to go throughit with you and this is a
playful adaptation of like tourstats.

(01:25:41):
It's not hit every fairway, it'sthe first.
One is put it in play.
If it's in play, a good playercan make a birdie from anywhere.
Second one is, statistically,anything more than a wedge in
your hand.
A shot on the green is a goodshot.
Anything on the green with morethan a wedge is a good shot.
Wedge it like an assassin.

(01:26:02):
You have got the difference.
So everybody knows thedifference between a
professional golfer and a verygood golfer is they hit their
wedges inside like 12 feet,right and so, because you can
make putts inside 10 feet, it'sa ball rolling on a regular
surface.
They don't go in once you getpast like nine, 10 feet.
That often you got to roll itvery well from 10 feet and in

(01:26:27):
right If you hit it close, yougot to make them.
And then if you miss a green,keep it tidy.
Right, you got to get up anddown.
So then when you say down thestretch, when you remind
yourself playing great golfinvolves five tasks Put it in
play, hit greens, wedge it close, make short putts and keep it

(01:26:49):
tidy.
I then say are you capable ofdoing those five things?
And they say yes, and then Iget to make my joke, which is no
, you're one of the best, you'reat one, you are among the best
people in the world.
You are so fucking good atthose five things.
Down the stretch, remindyourself I am so good because

(01:27:15):
there's nobody blocking you from.
I always say, if LeBron Jameswas guarding you, you wouldn't
call agency, but there's nothingstopping you from doing
something you are so good at.

Speaker 1 (01:27:30):
We talk about this all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:27:32):
That helps people.
I don't want to overstate whatI've done so far in my career,
but I have helped people getthat first win at multiple
you're not, you're notoverstating something there,
because that's that's.

Speaker 1 (01:27:44):
What people don't understand is that in our minds
there's always a gatekeeper,there's always a reason like we
have to protect our ego, right?
So there's always thisgatekeeper that's keeping us
down and not letting us live upto our potential, and, in my
opinion, the only competitionanybody actually has is their
own potential.
So, with that being said, whatkeeps us from that potential is

(01:28:10):
this gatekeeper mentality and,like you're saying, there's
nothing in the way.
If you have set reasonable goalsthat are obtainable.
There's no gatekeeper situation.
It's on you to find a way tolive up to your potential, and
it doesn't mean that you have todo anything perfect.

(01:28:31):
It doesn't mean that you haveto do anything better than
you're already on pace to do it.
You just have to keep doing youand living up to your potential
.

Speaker 2 (01:28:39):
So I feel like what helps with the.
It's true, you have to fake ituntil you make it, which is more
at the emotional level, You'regoing to feel uncomfortable
outside your comfort zone, butthen, connecting them to you
have to keep doing exactly whatyou've done your whole life and
you're really, really, really,really, really good at.
I said can you hit a ball onthe green from 157 yards in the

(01:29:04):
middle of the fairway?
They say yeah, and so thetrappings of if I you know, if I
par here, by the way, if I parhere future, so they also train
themselves awareness of,awareness of the future, which I
talked about with worry.
So if that's an important thingfor elite players, if I just

(01:29:24):
par in, I shoot 65, I win by two.
No bueno, no bueno, Right.
That's a risk averse style ofmindset which is not in the
present anymore.
You know that.
But but.
But this is what like.
Why do people have to come tome more than once?
Is that's a skill?
Noticing, if I par in, I'llshoot 67 is sort of a skill that

(01:29:50):
experientially needs to be doneand practiced, and done under
real conditions and so fake ituntil you make.
It is about, I would say, isthe emotional reality is very
stressful.
But then saying, are youcapable of hitting a ball on a
green with a stick?

(01:30:12):
And they smile, they say that'syour job.
So that spikes agency, which isthey're capable of doing the
thing that they need to do, andthen their confidence goes up.
So it's a fun sequence ofdeveloping their I call
championship mindset for how toget it done early on.
Like you don't this, you knowthe old idea that well, you got

(01:30:34):
to be there a lot of times.
I would disagree and I have alittle bit of evidence that I've
helped people get it donefaster.
And, and the main I would say,the two prong thing is right is
the emotional regulation thathave to keep it within a zone of
tolerance and really drivingmindset through agency, which is

(01:30:59):
I feel like I'm capable ofdoing the thing, I'm equipped to
do, the thing I need to do toachieve my goal, which is hit a
ball on the green and, you know,roll it into or near a hole.
Talk about stating the obviousand keeping it simple has really
helped people go further withtheir ability to finish events

(01:31:21):
or rounds and tournaments faster, um, than you might think.
Oh, they haven't done this alot and it's been very, very
exciting.

Speaker 1 (01:31:28):
And I think it's interesting too right.
It's like we've talked a lotabout a lot of the different
skill sets that go into.
You know this elite performancewhen it comes to our mental um,
our mental performance on thegolf course.
But you know there's thingsthat happen right, and you know
I think a curious case that I'mkind of keeping an eye on is

(01:31:50):
Nick Dunlap.
You know Nick has come out ontour and won as an amateur and
nobody had done that before.
And then he went to theprofessional in his first rookie
campaign and he's got two winson the PGA Tour and then goes
out and fires.
You know hadn't been playingwell prior to that but then
fires, you know, at 90 atAugusta national and it's.
You know, I look at that kidand I I feel bad because I see

(01:32:14):
somebody who isn't going throughgrowing pains.
I see somebody who looksdefeated and looks lost.
And that's where you know theability to regulate and to
separate his identity from NickDunlop.
You know, sensational start toa PGA tour career and, like 19,

(01:32:36):
20 year old kid from you knowthat went to Alabama trying to
figure out tour life for thefirst time.

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):
Amazing.
He got it done that first time.
It's funny you bring him upbecause I presented on him to a
coaches summit where I gave atalk and I used him as the sort
of counter example to Tiger, thesort of steely mask, you know,
sort of just controlling oneselfand the moment.
And I even like transcribe whathe said afterwards.

(01:33:02):
And you know, I think this isvery interesting, that I would
say he had more of like aEastern philosophy style, which
he was very like accepting ofhis vulnerability and the
fluidity of the moment.
And I have, I can bring it, Imean I could send it to you.
It's beautiful.

(01:33:22):
He says he was really embodyingthis idea, that it was the most
nervous I've ever been.
I didn't know what was going tohappen but I was just going to
keep sort of trying to do thebest I could and no matter think
about agency, no matter theoutcome he's already accepted

(01:33:43):
any outcome no matter theoutcome, I'm going to learn it's
going to be an amazingexperience.
You see how you're sort ofsaying he said you know, a lot
of people don't even get thischance.
It wasn't like I'm the best I'm, you know, patrick Reed, I'm
the, I'm a top five player inthe world.
I love that.
I present on that too, becauseconfidence and narcissism in
golf is complicated, because wewant you to be humble but then

(01:34:05):
we want you to say every time Itee it up, I want to win.
So I write about thatcontradiction and have presented
on it.
But with Dunlap this, I sensethat like I don't really.
He kept saying I am aware thatI'm in such an extreme moment

(01:34:28):
here and I was accepting of that.
He was like pliant andvulnerable and receptive to it
and he managed to execute and Ithought it was such a
fascinating counterpoint tosomething that's more like you
know, assertive and I'm themaster of my domain, him and

(01:34:49):
through him.
I thought it was very beautifuland very often not emphasized
that this guy won a PGA Tourevent the first chance he got
and when they interviewed him,he was so candid about saying

(01:35:12):
many other guys are greatplayers, I don't know how many
chances, rather than saying hesaid I don't know how many
chances like this I'll get.
There's something so remarkableabout that vulnerability and
trust there that I was reallyvery moved as a psychologist, to
be frank, and I presented aboutthis, as this is in the realm

(01:35:34):
of high performance.

Speaker 1 (01:35:37):
For sure, no doubt about it, I mean it's who talk
in that, but we would.

Speaker 2 (01:35:42):
That is not what is taught or what has right.
So, to widen what is possible.

Speaker 1 (01:35:49):
Well, I think Scotty hits on that some too, man.

Speaker 2 (01:35:51):
Managing the level of pressure and stress.

Speaker 1 (01:35:54):
Well, I think Scotty also like he's never
demonstrative in a, in a pressconference, and he's never like
I'm the man or we're workingharder than everybody else his
style is so fascinating.

Speaker 2 (01:36:07):
I mean I have a take on it.
If you want, sure hit it, okay.
So, like dj, they said he usedto be fun, he said he was hot
tempered and scheffler has saidI used to get really upset and
you know my emotions andpartially I think, through his
spirituality and his you knowhis, his religious affiliation

(01:36:33):
and faith I really think hemeans it, that he's not.
Golf is life.
It means everything.
It's not quite that, it meansnothing, but when he looks you
in the eye and says I don't careif I shoot 60 or 80 today,
because when I go home my wife'sgoing to kiss me and my baby's

(01:36:54):
going to be happy to see me, hemeans it.
So how do you beat a guy who,paradoxically, is a fierce
competitor and enjoys, I see,like it's very, it's new, this
is new.
So people want to know, in myopinion I've thought about this

(01:37:14):
a lot how could he be Tiger like?
But he's Scotty Schefflerindividuality, he doesn't care
and he is going to fight you tothe death.

Speaker 1 (01:37:27):
It's unreal.
I'll tell you right now.
Go back to the Olympics.
It's the 13th or 14th hole.
He makes a birdie and him andTed Scott say something to one
another and you can almost seeScotty change right then and
there, and something for himclicked and Ted said the right

(01:37:50):
thing, as Ted's been known to do.

Speaker 2 (01:37:53):
I don't know, Ted.
My sense is this guy probablyis one of the greatest caddies
who ever walked the planet.

Speaker 1 (01:38:01):
I think so too.

Speaker 2 (01:38:02):
And I think he should get more credit.
I don't know what that meansexactly, but let's say it this
way that team is magnificent.

Speaker 1 (01:38:12):
With Randy.
Like here's the thing that getsno credit.
Okay, scotty has been withRandy since he was a child.

Speaker 2 (01:38:19):
I think seven years of age.

Speaker 1 (01:38:21):
He's so loyal.

Speaker 2 (01:38:22):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (01:38:22):
Right but hang on it gets better.
I know a lot of coaches whohave developed players to the
point where they get to play ontour.
They are hyper protective oftheir kids because it's
literally like their kid, and Iwould say the greatest downfall
in this particular situationtypically is that the player

(01:38:45):
needs to continue to get better.
The coach doesn't have betterskills to give them and then the
player doesn't get the helpthey need.
Wow, in this particular case,mr Scheffler needed some help
with his putting.
Yeah, randy didn't sit thereand go.
Well, I know what I'm talkingabout and you just need to pop
better.
None of that happened.

(01:39:06):
They went and got Phil Kenyon,by most considered to be the
best putting coach in the world.
They put Phil on the team andhere's what I'll tell you that
I've observed with both my eyesRight.
I've personally observed thisyeah.
Anytime, and I mean this, yeah,anytime, and I mean this anytime

(01:39:27):
that I've ever seen Scotty outon the putting green with Phil
Randy's right there.
That's right, and it's notdominating the conversation.
Just trying to make sure thathe's understanding what Scotty's
hearing, because Randy knows atthe end of the day he's the
primary coach.
He's got to be able to triagewhatever is going on between
Phil and Scotty to Scotty,should he need to Dude.

(01:39:49):
There's no ego.
Randy didn't sit there and gooh, he's going to leave me now.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I've talked to Randy about that.
It shows unbelievableleadership by Randy, in my
opinion.

Speaker 2 (01:40:04):
I wrote down the word .
A great instructor at thatlevel is a leader and, as it can
delegate and that isbeautifully said I, I, I love
that and I think that it takesenormous trust in the
relationship and, like you'resaying, like a, you know you're

(01:40:25):
coaching the best player in theworld and he says the guy needs
not needs to, would benefit fromseeing somebody that maybe even
matches his style, who willhelp him with the putting.
There is something verybeautiful about that.

Speaker 1 (01:40:39):
It's unreal.
So well we went, we've talked,we've covered performance a
whole bunch of different waysand this has been fun.
I'm glad we did this.
This is great.
Yeah, so how do people find youon social media and the
internet and all of that funstuff?
Should they want to learn moreabout one, dr Michael Klein?

Speaker 2 (01:40:58):
Yes, Well, they.
If people are interested inseeing me for a consultation and
coaching, uh, they can justemail me at Michael Klein PhD at
gmailcom.
That's all one word and I'msure that'll be in the.
You know, I'll get in the notes.
Hello, yep, and uh, my websiteis care.

(01:41:19):
Okay, this is fun.
It's charactersportcom, and mywife is like nobody's going to
know how to spell it.
I was like it's so off thateverybody will remember.
So it's character with two Ks,so it's K-H-A-R-A-K-T-E-R,
sportcom.
And again, that comes from theGreek about individuality.

(01:41:40):
And on Instagram and I'm doingmore with that, I'm just going
to make sure I get the handleright, because that is, they can
reach me there at character,underscore sport, underscore
psychology.

Speaker 1 (01:42:00):
That's a long one.

Speaker 2 (01:42:01):
Underscore sport, underscore psychology.
That's a long one.

Speaker 1 (01:42:02):
Underscore sport, underscore psychology back in
the 160 character day, like mostof the message would have been
just your, your tagline there sothe social media, it's coming
along.

Speaker 2 (01:42:14):
We're doing some fun stuff.
You know, the the nice thing isdo more of it.

Speaker 1 (01:42:18):
You're great at it, man.
Like you've got such a greatpassion and you're so excited
about what you do.
You definitely don't work a joblike I don't work a job, so do
the social media.
Point a camera on yourself andthis is maybe where you can like
really let it get overoverstimulated and overregulated
.
Instead of doing that on thegolf course, you can just do it

(01:42:39):
on a, on a social media platform.
So I want to thank you so muchfor like just taking the time.
Man, like I don't think you'veheld any punches.
I don't think I've held anypunches.
Uh, so it feels like it's beena great episode.
I'm so thankful for everybodywho's listened.
Uh, thank you again for thesupport.
If you are interested inwatching the video of this, you

(01:43:02):
can find it on the Measured GolfYouTube.
You can also find this podcastanywhere you download podcasts
by searching Measured Golf and,as Dr Michael Klein said, you
can find him through CharacterSport with 2Ks.
So thanks again, Thanks forlistening and until next time,
keep grinding.

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