Tradition Meets Innovation: The Resurgence of Persimmon Golf Clubs and the Evolving Game of Golf with Todd Demsey

Discover the allure of tradition blending with innovation as Todd Demsey from Todd Demsey Golf joins us to unravel the timeless beauty of persimmon golf clubs. Our conversation meanders through the craftsmanship of these classic tools and their resurgence in a sport dominated by power-hitters and metal woods. Feel the passion as we venture into the nostalgia of brands like Powerbilt, and reflect on a strategic shift in golf where finesse is often overshadowed by brute force. Todd's insights will leave you contemplating the finesse of a well-placed drive, the art of club making, and the pure joy of playing a game that's as much about history as it is about the scorecard.

As the fairways of tradition meet the tee boxes of modernity, we cast a light on the cultural shift within golf. From the communal charm of your local Hill Park to the social buzz of Ocean Side, we celebrate the sport's return to its more accessible roots. We recognize the growing appeal of simpler times while acknowledging the invigorating pulse of contemporary twists like Topgolf. Stories of personal resilience, the camaraderie of a round with minimal clubs, and the joy of a casual wedge choice underscore the diverse paths to fulfillment found within the world of golf.

Finally, we embrace the harmony between the artisanal heritage of the game and the precision technology of today. Delve into how data and tools like launch monitors and force plates can refine your swing and safeguard your health, all without losing the essence of golf. Whether you're a seasoned pro or a weekend warrior, join us as we explore how technology and expert coaching can elevate your game, ensuring every swing you take is one step closer to that perfect round.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measure
Golf podcast where I, MichaelDutro, sit down with amazing
people from the golf industryand talk all things golf
performance and generally.
When we think performance, wetend to be led to believe that
new is always better.
But today I think we're goingto take a slightly different
approach to performance and kindof talk a lot about you know,

(00:30):
what is it that people trulyvalue in the game and why do
people love the game of golf?
And yes, at the end of the day,we want to shoot low scores,
but there's a lot that goes intoshooting those scores.
So one of the biggest thingsthat we talk about generally
when we talk about performanceis clubs and equipment, and
today we're really, reallyfortunate because we have not

(00:51):
only a phenomenal player in hisown right, but also a guy that
is really putting the art ofclub making back in the game,
and doing it with quite a bit ofstyle, I might add.
So we're very happy and honoredto have Todd Dempsey with us.
From Dempsey Golf.
You're probably familiar withhis name.
He's been a heck of a player,playing four years at Arizona

(01:12):
State, winning a national titleand managing to do all that
while roommates with PhilMickelson, I think.
So I mean the guy obviously hasgot some game played well with
a professional level andrecently he's got some publicity
for you know, getting out thereand mixing it up with guys and
playing with some persimmon golfclubs.
So I think it's unique.
I think it's great.
I had the opportunity to meetTodd down at the PGA show and I

(01:35):
said hey man, I got to have youon, so without further ado, we
got Todd.
Todd say hello to everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Hey, thanks for having me.
I look forward to talking toyou about.
You know whatever clubs golfswing, so thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah, I mean, let's just start where we kind of met,
right.
So you did some.
You did some persimmons forPowerbill, which is kind of a
old school legendary brand inthe game of golf that we're all
familiar with, all the gearheads anyway, and they had you
there, which I think probablyhad to be kind of weird for you
to be standing there at a tradeshow and everybody's there to

(02:11):
buy the latest and greatest andyou're standing there with some
persimmon.
But what was the reaction tothe clubs?
Todd?

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah, I think it was pretty positive.
It's a, you know, a companylike Powerbill.
I grew up in, you know, playinggolf in the 80s and they were
huge at the time.
Fuzzy Zell or Jody Mudd, youknow guys, miller Barber, who
actually my college one of mycollege roommates was his son,
Larry but yeah, just love thebrand and they're looking to get

(02:40):
back into the scene andpersimmon seems to be a good fit
for them and so to make somewoods for them was a treat and I
think most people liked them.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Yeah, I mean it got me to stop, for sure.
You know, I saw the Powerbillname and I was curious and drawn
to it because they've beenknown to kind of sometimes go
against the grain a little bit,I would say, as a company and I
was curious to see what they had.
And then, walk in by and seeingyour persimmons, I was like man
, like these, these aren't yourgrandpa's persimmons or these

(03:16):
aren't the ones that you find,you know, at the Goodwill.
Like, these things have someclass, they have some style and,
most importantly, they I thinkthey have a different CG, if I'm
not mistaken.
Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yeah, I do a few things differently than the old
ones.
The old ones were designed fora lot of balls, so when it's
pretty frustrating to take oneout of the attic and try to hit
today's low spin hard balls.
Oh yeah, there you go.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
Yeah, look at that.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
I got a few of those.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yeah, I'll tell you what man.
Hang on to them, becausethey're worth their weight in
gold.
I'm not even going to tell youwhat I paid to get a brand new
dozen of them.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
I bet yeah, but yeah they, I put a little more weight
in the back of the club to giveit.
I don't know the science behindit, but I just tried different
things.
And that's what's interestingabout Powerbilt they were the
only ones that put a big brassweight in the back of some of
their woods, so yeah, I'm doingthe same thing, but it's hidden

(04:16):
under the under this whole plate.
So, yeah, yeah, they're designedto play.
They're not designed to look at, they're designed to go out and
enjoy the game the way I grewup playing it and I, I think a
better way, but everybody's gottheir own own ideas on that.
But I, yeah, I just I thinkit's changed a lot.

(04:38):
You know, we're having to make8000 yard courses now and that
could have been avoided if wejust stick stuck with, you know,
solid clubheads.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Once you start making hollow clubheads, it could
change things, obviously, Ithrow something at your Todd and
I think it gets overlooked alot, bud, and maybe I'm wrong
and you tell me because you werea player during this period of
time but I think when you weregrowing up there was a premium
placed on getting the ball inwhat we would call like a good

(05:12):
drive scenario, meaning that itmay or may not be in the fairway
, but we have like a clear shoton the next one, right Like
we're hitting good drives thatare in play that don't affect
our next shot, that much likemaybe a little rough, but
nothing too crazy.
Right Like we really put amassive, massive emphasis on
that and because of thatstrategy kind of led to hey, I

(05:35):
want to be in the short stuff,not the long stuff behind the
trees.
That's really at a premium hereand instead of like trying to
hit over that where I might messthat up and it might overspend
and it comes up short and landsin the trees, I'm just going to
play short of that.
So I think really that bigdistance thing is kind of lost
in the sauce a little bit,because people are looking

(05:57):
purely at data and they're notthinking about well, now, with a
modern club, that's way moreforgiving now, instead of
worrying about those same treesbecause I might miss hit it now
it's so forgiving.
I just hit it right over top ofthe trees and I never think
about hitting a two iron off thetee or a driving iron because
I've got the equipment that'sforgiving.
So I think if you think aboutsome of the actual ballistics

(06:22):
and the dynamics that are atplay with club speed, like
you've been on record saying, ifyou hit the middle of the face,
todd, you're per semen driverswithin five or 10 yards of
anything you could play right.
If you hit it right on thescrews, you're within 10 yards
of whatever the latest andgreatest thing is.
So where the disadvantage isfor you is that when you don't

(06:42):
hit it on the middle it'sprobably a little more like
20-25 behind right Because it'sover spinning and there's not
the forgiveness there.
But now we're talking aboutthere being more skill placed on
hitting the middle.
But at the end of the day Idon't think the ball is purely
responsible for the massivedistance gains and I think a lot
of the massive, massivedistance gains on paper actually

(07:06):
come from strategic changes,not equipment changes, if that
makes any kind of sense to you.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, I think you're right.
The huge heads now allow you toswing as hard as you can swing
with that huge sweet spot.
So I agree, it's not the ball,it's not the club head, it's the
combination of everything.
But I mean, I definitely thinkif you put a limit on the size
of the head and made it have tobe a solid head, you can use

(07:35):
whatever material you want, butjust no hollow heads.
Baseball doesn't allow it.
I guess they do in, not in thepro level at least.
So I think if we had solidheads, they would have to be
smaller because it'd get tooheavy and yeah, I mean it's too

(07:57):
weight, obviously, but it seemssimple and I think it's a weight
thing too.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
Right, I think weight really factors into it To your
point.
By the way, fresh from Japan,just got it like two days ago.
I'm super pumped.
You might recognize that shaftI'm trying to get in the camera
there for you.
That is an original Fuji KorraMotor F1.
You probably recognize that.
Yeah, I know that you recognizethat the Taylor made R9 Super D

(08:27):
.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
Oh yeah, Look at that .
Oh brother, yeah, I like that.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Right, I mean, dude, this thing is great, it is
awesome, like this is.
A lot of gear heads considerthis to be one of the Holy grow
heads and the thing is is I cango out there and I can swing it
just about as fast as I swing mycurrent driver just a hair
slower, but when you look at thesmash factor it's not putting
up a 150.

(08:52):
It's just not doing it becauseI can't swing it that way
because of the way that theweighting is in the head and the
thing that I think we've kindof lost sight of.
This is all metal, this is allmetal everywhere, right, it's
not fiber, it's not carbon, it'snone of that stuff.
So the weight all of a suddengets a lot harder to shift
around and move and kind of,what we're talking about is this

(09:13):
, forgiveness, right?
So when we start making theframe carbon and it weighs next
to nothing relative to metal,now we can put a big CG weight
plug in the back, like you weretalking about with power belt
doing with some of theirpersimmon drivers and having
that big kind of block in theback.
It's exactly what the clubcompanies are doing now with
these tungsten weights.
So you know, I don't think thatyou're.

(09:34):
I don't think that you'rereally gaining an advantage on
the fact that you still got toswing it fast, to hit it hard.
I just think that you'regaining a massive effect when it
comes to the forgiveness and Ireally, unfortunately, don't
disagree with you.
But I think it takes a lot ofthe skill away from the game of
driving the golf ball.
Because I grew up in a time,and you grew up in a time, to

(09:56):
where hitting the driver reallywas the hardest club in the bag
to hit.
Like that thing was hard to getright, man, and it was never
real consistent day to day, likeyou kind of hit some different
shots and you kind of learned tomake your piece.
But now anymore, man, it's likeyou show up and optimize that
thing from the first hole to thelast hole and you just kind of
hit the same shot time and timeagain because what we can do
with the engineering now it'sjust, it's a different game.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, you're right.
I mean it's it's Probably toolate to change it, but there's
there's no doubt that I agreewith everything you say and for
me I'm not trying to changeanything, I just do what I know.
When I was done playingprofessionally, I was either
gonna do something totallydifferent or I was just totally

(10:42):
wanting to get out of the gamebecause the just turned off by
well playing for a living andnot having a ton of success at
times was was difficult and Hardfor an athlete man.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
I mean I think that that really goes over.
Look right, like I mean Don'tget me wrong when you're one of
the top 20 guys on tour and youknow, seemingly you're getting
all the breaks right and likethings are clicking, you know it
is a good life man, but for theother 130 guys, whoo, I mean
it's, it's rough out there, man.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
It is, yeah, I did.
You know I was out there about15 years and I Wouldn't trade
anything.
You know I got to travel thecountry in the world and play
golf, so I can't complain.
But I Was just kind of turnedoff by the game, the
commercialization, the equipment.
I mean a lot of the reps willAgree, I know I was always

(11:35):
playing stuff.
You know, five, five years oldand come on, play the newest
thing, man.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Come on, we need to hit numbers.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, but they, I mean They've been so good to me
and that's why I don't.
I'm not here to Complain aboutanything that the equipment
companies have no right, but butI'm just, you know, for me, and
then anybody else that'sinterested in playing the game
the way it was played, you knowHundreds of years ago that

(12:04):
that's what I'm here to do.
I guess the shaft, this I don't, I'm not into Hickory shafts.
I think I know Ted Moore is hasgot that figured out.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
I've got stuff.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, I don't, I don't know much about it, but,
but I guess to truly go back tothe way the game started you'd
have to do that.
But I just kind of go back towhen I loved the game in the 80s
and, and thankfully, a lot ofpeople feel the same way and
love the sound and feel ofpersimmon.

Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, I don't disagree, man, and I grew up.
I'm a little bit younger thanyou, I'm 39.
So I'm more of like that kindof 90s, early 2000s kind of golf
era guy and I kind of alwaysthink of that as kind of being
like tailor-made sweet spotright, like they kind of own the
woods market then.
And I love that old tailor-madestuff.

(12:54):
I have a ton of it.
We have our seven super quadsand our nines and I got all that
stuff, man, and I appreciate itfor what it is and I can
understand like what theengineers were trying to do.
And then if you go and I'm kindof a golf ball weirdo too I
have a bunch of old golf ballsstock piled away and it's like
you kind of go and look at thoseballs and then you kind of see

(13:15):
where the engineer was comingfrom and what they were trying
to kind of mesh up and produce.
So I think it's beautiful thatyou're kind of putting some of
that back into the game.
And the thing that I'm reallycurious about, todd, is I would
imagine you're more popular thanever.
I would imagine you're gettingmore popular day in, day in, day
out, and I think there's morepeople that are thinking more

(13:36):
along the lines of you are andwanting to maybe pump the brakes
a little bit on the equipmentand the commercialization and
the $800 green fees, and maybeyou want to take it back to a
time when it's a little moresimple and a little more pure,
and maybe you were playing for aDiet Coke and a Snickers.
You know, I mean, I just thinkit's.
There's a lot of people thatare in line with you, a lot more
so now, maybe, than ever before.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Yeah, you see it, with golf courses like Hill Park
and Ocean Side and they'repopping up everywhere where it's
just a more of a low key, lesspresumptuous atmosphere.
You know, just there for thegame and not all the.
I don't know how to describe it.

(14:19):
But I just like I live here inNorth Florida and I could go to
TPC as a tour member but I findmyself going to Jack's Beach
Golf Club, which is a muni downthe street and I just feel more
at home there and the tour hasbeen good to me.
But but it's I, yeah, just kindof turned off by the some of

(14:41):
the, the way the game has gone.
And again, I'm not.
I'm glad others are interestedin the way I, you know my, my
clubs and the way I approach thegame.
But everybody's got their ownrelationship with the game and
they're all.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
The game just really needs bifurcation.
I mean, if you really just getdown to it, the game just
desperately needs bifurcation,and it's already happened.
Like I have a very opinion thatif you're going to talk about
the greatest golfers ever,they've already come and gone
and tigers started a new era.

(15:19):
Like that Every everybody thatwas playing golf the same time
as tiger was belongs to the eraof old right and like we started
something new now.
But when you look at, like whatJack and Arnie and Sam and Lee
and Sevi and all these guys didwith the equipment that they had
, with the ball that they had,with the course conditioning

(15:40):
that they had and the scoresthey still shot relative to par,
it's flipping wild man and andyou know that and I know that,
and anybody who's ever playedwith a super spinning ball to
golf ball knows that like, and alot of these guys weren't even
playing with the good balladasat the very end of it right,
they were playing with real junk.
So my point is is that when youlook at the scoring relative to

(16:02):
par, I truly believe that thoseguys were the greatest golfers
of all time.
Now, what we have now isathletes playing golf, and this
is a completely different thingand it's it's literally turned
into a sport instead of a game.
And anytime you havecommercialized sports, you know
dollars always kind of driveeverything and as it gets bigger

(16:23):
it gets more kind of bottomline and unfortunately it's the
way it goes, unfortunately itseems like.
But I definitely think that theguys of old I mean that's that
was the skill man and it's.
We need this bifurcation becauseso many of us, 99.9% of people
that play golf, can't do whatthe guys on TV do.
But the guys on TV set thestandards for everybody and

(16:46):
that's why there's not enjoymentin the game and I really, truly
believe that.
So I think that the bifurcationis already common.
You're seeing it where there'sa lot of people who are showing
up to golf course.
We have record numbers on thegolf courses since COVID.
There's record numbers ofpeople showing up Todd that
aren't there to play golf.
They're there to like hit agolf ball and like have a party

(17:07):
and enjoy being outside and like.
I think that's cool.
I'm not here for it, that's notnecessarily what I want to do
with golf, but there are peoplefinding joy in golf again and
the minute that people starthaving fun on the golf course
again, here come the no funpolice and it's just like I
think this is finally going tobe the straw that breaks the
camel's back and we do get somebifurcation.

(17:28):
And I think it's going to begreat because we can look at
basketball through the eras nowand have conversations about who
is the greatest of their era,and now we don't just constantly
run into the Michael versusLeBron debate, and I think that
that's what we need in golf andwe need to go to like hey, this
is when everybody played thesame equipment.
Now, this is when the tour guysplayed what they had to play to

(17:48):
keep the ball on the planet,and this is what the amateurs
had to play so that they couldstill have fun and enjoy the
game.
I don't understand why that'ssuch a bad deal for everybody.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, I agree, I think.
Whatever, however, anybodywants to enjoy the game, go for
it.
Me, this is kind of thepersimmon blades the softer
balls.
I try to.
Always am trying to track downsofter, spinier balls and
actually found a good Wilsonball.

(18:19):
That's really pretty good.
Right, did the duo?
Yeah, that's what I used toplay.
They have a newer version andI'm forgetting the name of it.
But it's the next generation ofthe duo, and so for me, this is
how I enjoy it, just trying tobring me back to the days when I

(18:40):
was attracted to the game, andso yeah, but whatever, the top
golf and all that stuff is great, I don't go there, but anything
that brings people to the gameI'm in favor of.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
I mean I think it's rad Like you march through the
beat of your own drum and Idon't know how many people that
are listening to this would knowyour story.
But I mean, it's not only thatyou have this unrelenting,
authentic personality and youstick to yourself, but you've
also overcome some prettyserious health issues while

(19:17):
battling through the golf rankstoo, man.
I mean, you're one of thoseguys, man, you just keep coming
and that's a beautiful thing andyou keep coming your own way,
which is even more remarkablebecause it's tough to do and
there is a lot of pressure tochange.
But I mean, dude, coming backfrom two brain surgeries, I mean
that had to be really toughjust to even find some of that

(19:37):
feel that you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
Yeah, that was kind of right.
When I was getting going I gotmy tour card right out of
college and lost it right away.
But as I was getting my wayback to the tour on what's now
the corn fairy tour, I had somepain in my left sinus and turns
out it was a brain tumor, hadtwo surgeries, basically about

(20:02):
two years off out of the gameKind of right when I needed to
be progressing my career Thenhad back injuries.
It was kind of a lot of thingsat once.
But again, I have no regrets.
I'm happy I was able to traveland play golf, so no complaints.

(20:24):
But yeah, I was either going todo something when I was done
playing professionally.
I was so turned off by prettymuch everything related to the
game that I was going to dosomething else.
But that didn't last more thana couple of weeks and I was back
at it making persimmons andcoaching high school kids, which

(20:48):
got a few off to collegescholarships and yeah, I just
love the game.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
But I flip this around real quick.
So, ok, me and you are going tograb our golf bag and we're
going to go play golf.
All right, let me ask you thiswhen we're on the golf course,
instead of what turns us off andwhat we don't like, what does
turn you on on a golf course,man?
Like what?
What is it out there that keepsyou coming back for more right
now?
Like, what are you into rightnow?

Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, I mean it starts with walking and carrying
my bag.
That's probably probably themost important to me.
I would really rather not playin golf than playing a cart.
So I again, I have nothingagainst carts or Bluetooth,
we're not anti-carts.

Speaker 1 (21:35):
here, we're just, we're just.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, just do whatever.
Whatever keeps you enjoying thegame.
But I, yeah, just going out,you know, with my kids or my
wife and just walking nine holeslate in the day with equipment
that I feel a connection to, andis it always?

Speaker 1 (21:57):
different clubs every time you go, like are you
constantly like throwingdifferent stuff in the bag and
messing around, or do you leavestuff in for a while and kind of
build an opinion slowly, likehow does it work with you, with
the clubs that you build andplay?

Speaker 2 (22:11):
Yeah, I keep it pretty consistent.
I do take out clubs.
I try to see how few clubs Ican play with that.
To me that's fun.
You know, a short set withseven, six, seven, eight clubs,
yeah nice.
You know, my my woods are takesso long to make each one that I
don't have a ton of options.

(22:31):
I have a couple, you know,maybe a couple drivers, couple,
few fairway woods that I havethat are mine.
So I I don't really have a tonlaying around so I just stick
with it.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
What about wedges?
Are you a wedged guy or youkind of a freak?
That way too?

Speaker 2 (22:49):
A little bit or no, Not really I've always yeah, as
long as the loft is right andthe bounce looks OK, just kind
of a normal looking bounce,nothing crazy.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
You're a Florida guy, so imagine you like a little
less bound.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, I am, and I've been here about 10 years I still
haven't figured out the Bermuda.
I just, but I, yeah, I'm notnot really into the to the
design of wedges, but I, yeah,I'm still, but still trying to
figure out this Bermuda.
I think I finally got somethingthat works.

Speaker 1 (23:23):
I kind of chopped down on it and yeah, I got to
show you some cool stuff.
I think honestly I don't.
I know that you're not the, theguy that's like following all
this stuff.
That's, it's not your scene,but Joe Mayo, who's a really
famous swing coach, goes by themoniker a track man maestro back
in the day but has had a lot ofsuccess helping Victor Ovlin

(23:47):
kind of fixes, wedge play aroundthe greens and all of that fun
stuff.
And one of Joe's big things isthat for in Victor's case and I
don't want to put words in Joe'smouth, he doesn't tell
everybody to do this, but inVictor's case like he's like 10
degrees down with his angle ofattack now, which sounds
ludicrous, but people reallydon't understand how the map is

(24:10):
calculated and all of that.
And like for Bermuda, that'sreally about what you have to do
, because the way that the rootsystem grows, versus like a bent
grass does or Kentuckybluegrass does up here.
So like getting way more steepwith an AOA is really the only
way to do it down there, becauseyou have to sever the grass,
because if you don't, it kind ofwraps and grabs.

(24:31):
So there's definitely sometruth to needing to be a little
more choppy down there with theBermuda, especially, especially
the public place that you'replaying at right.
Like getting the championship orMuda over TPC right.
So it's really kind of thickand grabby.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's interesting, thatmakes sense.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
I kind of stumbled across that and then playing
with guys from here that kind ofknow what to do, but that makes
sense this is a beautiful thing, man Like I look at you and I
just see an artist Like I don'treally see like no offense, I
know you can play dude, likethat there's nobody questioning
the fact that you can get outand get after it.
But like you're the guy that'slike the savanna there, man,

(25:10):
like in the flip flops and theT-shirt I can still play with
seven golf clubs and that's abeautiful thing.
And what I've reallyappreciated is the more people
like yourself, the craftsmen,the artist, the more of these
people that I meet, the more weshare kind of notes, the more I
feel like I'm able to kind ofjive and show you like how some

(25:33):
of the technology proves whatyou feel is real.
And that's really where I thinkthat we kind of get lost with
the technology and golf.
And we can talk abouttechnology and golf club design
and engineering and construction.
We can talk about the launchmonitors, we can talk about
force plates, we can talk aboutany of the technology you want
to talk about.

(25:54):
But at the end of the day all ofthis really boils down to does
it prove what you guys haveexperienced as some of the best
players in the world during aperiod of time.
And if the answer is yes, then Ithink we're onto something
Right.
So, like I think that you know,do you understand trackman data
and all that stuff?
It's probably not your forte.
It doesn't mean you don't getit, but probably means like you

(26:17):
couldn't give me a definition ofevery number that the machine
spits out.
But if I said, hey, show mewhat works for you, and then I
could show you how your attackangle gets steeper, like now
we're seeing correlation in thereal world, right.
So that's where I think themagic is and, like you know,
like we got to move this centerof mass around this golf club
for a modern golf ball.

(26:38):
You might not know theballistics and the engineering
behind that, but as a player youfigure that out over time,
right.
And I think that that's wherewe got to use the technology to
actually make the game moreenjoyable, not just make it more
confusing and more expensive.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, yeah, it makes sense.
I know that the stuff that youdo that I've looked at it
absolutely is in line with whatI've found over the years
playing golf.
So it's fun to see.
You know sometimes I'm, youknow I try to avoid a lot of
numbers and stuff like that, butwhen but you do it, you know

(27:18):
responsibly where it's it makessense.
It's not just this jumbled messof of of it's like it, it's
presented in a way that thatmakes sense in the real world.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
So I uh, well, we play a game right and like
here's what drives me nuts, andyou know this right when you
were playing high level golfback in the 80s and correct me
if I'm wrong, but for the mostpart you guys were all hitting
it into the greens on par foursand par fives from the same
place.
Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (27:49):
Uh, yeah, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
Right, okay, so the reasoning that I have been given
from multiple people that I'veasked about this very topic is
that the reason that all theguys back in the day pre-urthane
golf ball we'll call it so pre2000, the reason that for the
most part everybody hit it tothe same place was because at
about 169 mile an hour ballspeed, what we found is that the

(28:14):
ballada golf ball becameincredibly erratic after that
and you couldn't really predictwhat it was going to do.
So everybody was kind ofbeholden to 169 miles an hour.
That's all you could put intothe ball, because if you did any
more than that the things spunlike crazy and we couldn't
control it.
So that's where I think peopledon't realize how much golf has

(28:36):
changed, because now we're notlimited to this 169 number.
We've got guys out there ontour that put up 200 mile an
hour ball speed during a golftournament.
So it's like, okay, now wecan't just like create a good
looking golf swing that issuboptimal yet produces 169.

(28:57):
So it's okay, now we've got toproduce everything we can
produce If we're really talkingabout competing and competitive
and trying to gain an advantage.
We got to hit it off the tee asfar as we can.
So we got to optimizeeverything, and if we're not
using our body correctly toachieve that, we're going to
have failure in the body whichlooks like injury.
And that's where I think whatwe're able to do now is prevent

(29:21):
injury, because I don't thinkthat we're telling people all
that different information fromwhat we used to say.
I just think now when we say it, we know that it works for that
player, and now you don't goout and do the wrong movement
for a month trying to dig it outof the dirt, only to wind up
with an injury.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, yeah, it makes sense.
With the technology Now, you'reable to find the right answers
without having to trial anderror and hurting your body Like
if we go out right and, likeyou, say, hey Mike, can you
watch me hit a few balls on therange?

Speaker 1 (29:55):
I feel pretty confident at doing that.
But I'm going to be honest withyou.
If, like, pete Cowan isstanding right next to me and,
like you go, hey guys, what doyou think?
I'm not going to say a word andI'm going to let Pete Cowan
talk.
And here's why, when it comesdown to who's got the best set
of eyes, I really can't competebecause in my mind, a golf

(30:16):
coach's eyes really have to betrained like very, very, very,
very well.
And that means that you got tosee a whole lot of golf swings
to learn, kind of, how to see it.
So there's nobody who's betterat that, in my opinion, than
Pete Cowan.
He's been doing it the longest,he's been doing it at a high
level, he's got probably themost major championships one of

(30:36):
any coach as far as I know.
So I would default to Pete.
But if you said, hey guys, I'mgoing to come out and see you
both at your place, I'll goahead and step up, man, like I'm
good, because if you're goingto, let me bring all my toys to
the table.
Look, we can debate applicationand how to get somebody to do
something all day long, becausehumans are really messy and it's

(30:57):
always hard to figure out whatgets somebody to do something.
But from a diagnosticperspective, I got it Like we
can't really met.
Like I'm reading data now I'mnot forming opinions based off
what I think, I'm literally justconnecting.
And that's where I think it'sgotten really good man, and
that's where I think that, likethis next generation of golf or

(31:18):
I think that's why they'reshowing up so much more refined
in a better place, because theyknow who they are, they know
what they do and they just goout there and do them.
And I think it used to take usa long time to figure that out
out there.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah, it's a good point.
It used to be nobody won on thetour before 30 years old.
A few did.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
But you know, you're not going to make it.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah, now they come out ready to win 20 years old,
so it's definitely changed.
But I like what you're sayingabout your method and your way
of looking at it.
Numbers really don't lie.
I kind of play golf by feel andOf course you do, but yeah,

(32:01):
with your data to be able tomake it eliminates the need to
go out there and beat your headin the ground trying to figure
it out.
If the answers are there, sothat's pretty great.

Speaker 1 (32:15):
I'm going to have a conversation briefly, but I look
at guys like you as massiveopportunities, because I'm
looking at you through a cameraand, as good as the camera is,
it's still not showing meeverything, but I can still see
the intensity behind your eyes,just like I saw that same
intensity when we were talkingdown at the PGA show.

(32:36):
And you're still a competitorand the problem for you is that
you're Correct me if I'm wrong,but I believe you're 51.
Is that correct?
That's correct, okay.
So, 51 years of age, you havetwo amazing kids, you have an
amazing wife and, generally man,you've got other interests in
life outside of golf.
So I really believe that, byusing the technology, I can

(33:00):
quantify those feelings.
So it's like, hey, you come in.
And it's like, hey, I got anhour.
Man, I got to go pick the kidsup later.
We're doing surfing later, it'sgoing to be sweet and I don't
have time for this all day.
So what can we get done in anhour?
And I'm like, well, hey, we needto get these four numbers
between these ranges and if youcan do that, we're good today.

(33:20):
And it's like, okay, cool.
Like yeah, I got that.
I feel that.
And like now, all of a sudden,like we quantify your feelings,
you know what to chase and assoon as you have it, okay, man,
you're 51.
I don't need you putting thewear and tear on yourself and,
more importantly, I need yougoing out and enjoying your life
, because that's when you'realways going to play your best
golf.
So that's where I think it getsgood.

(33:41):
And I can also keep you fromgetting hurt, because I can
promise golfers what hurts themthe most is their golf swing,
and that's relatively concerning, given the fact that a golf
club only weighs 13 ounces.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
Right, yeah, I mean what?
And I've tried to to makechanges at 50 years old, even
small changes, and I find that Ican't.
I can barely hit the ball whenI do that.
I'm curious with with you, likewhen you say, try to reach
these numbers, you get to thosenumbers however you want.
Right, it's not.

(34:14):
I mean, for example, my peoplealways tell me my, my left wrist
is, is copped.
You know, everybody else is, Imean, crazy with people with
their left hand.
Yeah, and I've always playedfrom here and whether it's right
or wrong, I mean I kind of knowwhere it's going and I've had
had people you know goodintentions, say now you got to

(34:36):
at least be flat here, and Ihonestly can't.
I wouldn't break 90 if I didthat.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
Well, you absolutely cannot break 90 doing that, and
I've I've seen a couple of yourgolf swings.
So I think that if we put youon force plates, we would see
that your vertical force isreally late.
You don't get it to happen andthat's why you've always had a
hard time getting what feelslike left at finish Right.

(35:02):
And for you that's always been abig struggle, but that matches
the era that you grew up in andwhat we were trying to
accomplish with a golf club,which was keep it out of the air
instead of get it in the air.
So, generally speaking, wedon't have enough breaking force
with you to act on the kickpoint of the shaft to get the

(35:23):
loft back on the face.
So you more than likely aregoing extension at the top Sorry
, kind of like that extension atthe top and then you kind of
more or less back out of it andthat's how you hold your face
open so that you don't hit itleft, go and left.
So that's what I would kind ofthink of, given what I know
about you a little bit and fromyour swing and honestly, I think

(35:45):
where your back issues comefrom is what's happened over the
years is that golf pros havebeen given technology without
any training.
So everybody got a camera right.
You remember this.
We all got our little yellowbriefcases, our JC videos and
like, ran out to the drivingrange and started filming
everybody and we started drawinga line on people's spines and
set up right, right down theirback.

(36:06):
Well, the spine has a dent or acurve in it and it's not
straight.
But everybody was taught tokeep that back straight.
The thing is is when you dothat, you actually lock out the
facet joints in your low back.
So now your spine can't extendand that's why you can't create
any depth.
So if I all of a sudden flattenyour left wrist and don't give

(36:27):
you more thoracic rotation, youhave zero depth into your point.
Man, you're probably hitting itoff the hosel.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah, yeah, and I just can't square up the face at
impact.
I know how to square it up, youknow from here.
But um, but, yeah, like.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
Here's what we try to do, right, and this is what you
do in a fitting.
I imagine is like, at the endof the day, man, I try to just
show you how to get to thatposition because you can get
there.
Like I'm not saying you couldget there consistently right now
, but like, with the rightqueuing and getting in different
positions, we can get you intosome of these new positions and
let you try them out.

(37:05):
And then we have you like hit acouple shots from there, and
then we can look at the data andgo, hey, like does that seem
doable?
And the answer, hopefully, isyes, because it should be.
And then it's like, okay, well,look at what this does relative
to what your old thing does.
Okay, well, here's what ourceiling looks like now and
here's what our floor looks likenow.
And basically, what I have todo with guys like you is just

(37:27):
keep you improving by 0.0000001%Every single day, because what
golfers tend to not realize isthat if you continue to improve
over a long enough period oftime, you eventually will wind
up on the PGA tour.
The problem is that most peoplestop improving somewhere around
, depending on, like, whatlevels of golf they play at most

(37:50):
, people really kind of struggleto develop much past 18 if they
play before that and then ifthey pick it up later they
really struggle to develop muchpast 40.
Okay.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah, it makes sense.
I feel like I've had a hardtime making any changes.
Well, probably before 40, butyou know, I just kind of feel
like I'm stuck with what I gotand it does work, but I know
there's there's a better way todo it, Really hoping that we
revisit this conversationbecause I'm hoping at some point

(38:22):
we do get this together.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
And I would be curious, man, because I don't
think you're done and I loveyour story.
I find it very inspirational.
You know, I don't think thatyou know Gary Woodland right now
is getting nearly enough praisefor coming back so quickly
after a brain surgery.
Tiger, I think, just actuallyquoted that and they kind of

(38:47):
asked Tiger why it was Gary thatgot the sponsors exemption into
the Genesis this week and Ithink he said something to the
effect of I don't think peoplerealized like how hard it is to
come back from a brain surgeryand Gary's out here relatively
quick and JB was out there in avery similar situation.
You, I mean, when you starttalking about the noggin man

(39:08):
like that, that's that makes ittough to play golf when the
noggin's not feeling right.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
Yeah, yeah, that's true, and back then it was a
whole different at a craniotomy.
So they basically took, took meapart and I think it's
different now.
It's a little less invasive,but right, but still, it's yeah
for him to be back competingagain.
It seems like it's only beensix months or I don't even know,

(39:35):
but it hasn't been that longright.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
Like I think it's been like maybe a year ish, but
not more than that.
I mean it's incredible, I meanit's so.
I mean I just cannot imaginelike not being 100% and being on
the tour, because and nobody'sever 100% Right Like I know that
I saw your head start like kindof nod and like, yeah, man, I

(39:57):
wish I was 100% when I wasplaying on the tour, but like,
right, nobody's at 100%.
But if you're out there and youknow and let's be honest, like
people know where they fit ontour right, if you know like
you're a guy trying to make cutsout there and you're feeling
like 85% out there on Thursdayafternoon, I mean, dude, that's
got to be pretty defeating, Iwould have to imagine, because

(40:18):
you know you got to play prettywell to make that cut.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yeah, yeah, it's a hard enough game when you're,
when you're healthy, so whenyou're fighting something which
I think most of us are much ofthe time.
But but yeah, it's, it's, andthat's where I think a lot of
the training that people aredoing now has been is help them
be at a higher level moreconsistently.

(40:42):
I sometimes wonder about theweightlifting and the bulking up
.
I don't really see.
I mean, you probably know, well, definitely know more than I do
about that, but I just here'swhat I'll say about that.

Speaker 1 (40:56):
There's what, generally speaking, in my
opinion and I'm not speaking foranybody other than me and what
I've seen and measured mostswing it faster of club head
speed than what they get inoutput in terms of ball speed.
So most people actually haveway more in the tank than they

(41:18):
think they do, even when theyhit one on the middle, and they
think that because they hit iton the middle, that's as good as
it can be.
Like they actually could stilldo better than that because of
launch conditions and thingslike that.
Right?
So like I truly believe thatwhere people go wrong is simply
trying to put more gas into thetank, because they already have

(41:38):
all the gas in the world butthey don't have any break to get
it to work.
Does that make sense?
Yes, so at the end of the day,like I think that having the
DPTs and the PTs and all thesestrength and wellness and
stretching coaches on tours awonderful thing.
They're looking at it fromtheir lens, which is I have a

(42:01):
human being who's an athlete.
His job is to perform at a very, very high level, as close to
optimal as possible.
Okay, do that, but there's noreal consideration by that
person into what skills does heactually have to accomplish
today as a golfer, right?
So like, let's say that you havea guy that you stretch out

(42:25):
really, really well in themorning and he goes out there,
and because he's reallystretched out and feeling good,
he goes out there and he hitshis driver to an apex of 120
feet, okay.
But then you got a guy that yougo out there and you don't
stretch him out the same way.
You do something a little bitdifferent.
And now, because you don't havea spine feeling as good and
stretched, now he apexes thedriver at 100 feet.

(42:45):
Okay, well, as long as he's notgetting hurt at 100 feet.
That would seem like a prettygood strategy for like, hey,
we're playing in the Britishopen and we don't want to hit
our driver way up in the air,right, and I know that that's a
really goofy example, but mypoint is is that these players
have these incredibly largeteams now and nobody on the team

(43:06):
communicates with the otherpeople on the team, generally
speaking.
And now it's like, yes, we'rein, we're creating all this
speed and all this force, but isit actually like helping the
player accomplish their task andkeeping them healthy?
Or did we just give them morespeed with no training, and now
not only can they not find thefairway, but they also are

(43:29):
getting hurt.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yeah, right, and that's where I was playing in
kind of the era when people werestarting to build these
entourages and when you got somany people chiming in, I don't
know how, how you can play, butI mean people have obviously
made it work.

(43:50):
I know I could not functionthat way, you know, unless they
were really everybody really wason the same page.
So I was always amazed by, youknow, people got to tee off, you
know, and final round of atournament, you got three people
watching him and telling himwhat to do.
I mean, at that point I feellike I'm kind of, I mean, I just

(44:12):
got to go with what I got.
There's no, no time to make anychanges.
But so I never reallyunderstood that.
But, and being there.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
I like a lot of these guys need that support system
right.
Like I get that they've grownup in a different era and
they're differentpsychologically than in their
profile and their personalityprofile types than we were back
in the day.
But like when I'm standingthere with a player before the
final round, we're not talkinggolf swing.
Like the only time I'm evergoing to talk golf swing with

(44:44):
them is if they turn around tome and they go hey, man, it kind
of feels like this today isthat still okay?
And I'm like, yeah, man, that'stotally fine.
You know what I mean.
Like a little awareness goes along way with you guys.
Like you guys are super hyped up, you're super critically aware
of everything in the environmentand like that, like that's what
I think that people sitting athome don't necessarily

(45:05):
understand is that it feelscompletely different throughout
the round to you because ofpressure.
Like I love Nick Dunlap talkingabout his legs going numb and
he thought like he was going tofall down when he was hitting
that puck because he couldn'tfeel his legs.
Like that people don't realizewhat's going on in those moments
for you guys in terms of thefeels right and at the end of

(45:27):
the day, we all play with feel.
Because when you're standingthere in the middle of you know,
let's say 17 fairway, right,and you've got to like stand
there and hit one to 10 to atucked right left pen, you know
all you have are your feelings.
Man, you don't have a launchmonitor, you don't have force
plates, you don't have yourcoach.
You know your caddy can maybesay a couple positive words to

(45:49):
you, but at the end of the dayyou got to feel that shot.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, and I've had that feeling where
my hands I don't feel my handsand I mean I feel like I played
pretty well under pressure butbut yeah, there were times where
I just like I don't know, it'slike I'm going to hit the ball
and it somehow it always kind ofworked out decently.
But yeah, it's weird what yourbody does.
I like 16 at that at thePhoenix Open a couple of times.

(46:20):
Just, you know about to hitthat shot, just a simple eight
iron or something, but just theweird feelings.
You know you haven't missed ashot all day and you're like
just just don't shank this.
Or you know it's just weird thestuff that goes through your,
your mind and your body.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
So yeah, but it's a trip right, man.
I mean it's like and I thinkthat that I think that's not.
I get so frustrated man,because, like you get mislabeled
.
And when I, when I say you, Ishouldn't put it all on your
shoulders, but I feel like thisretro golf scene let's call it

(46:57):
right, like it gets mislabeledis trying to make golf simpler.
And I don't think it's tryingto make golf simpler.
I think it's trying to focus ondifferent aspects of the game,
right, Instead of being sofocused on hitting perfect golf
shots and that's all thatmatters.
There's people out there thatare more in love with, like,
hitting one in the woods andhaving to get it back into the

(47:18):
position and having to try toscore with seven clubs in the
bag instead of 14.
And you know, I think thosepeople were way more focused on,
maybe, the human skills when itcomes to playing golf, versus
this super technical kind offreak mode to where everybody's
a gearhead and like.
I don't think that's helped golf.
It didn't help tennis.

(47:38):
You know, like I don't know howit was when you were growing up
, but I specifically remember,like my parents I didn't grow up
wealthy but my parents playedtennis nonetheless and like we
would play on public courts andyou literally could not find a
tennis court to use anywhere.
Like, you just could not do it.
And this is in the late 80s,early 90s, right, you just

(48:00):
couldn't find a tennis courtopen anywhere.
And what happened?
We went from wooden racketsright that were small to big,
oversized titanium rackets thatwere crazy expensive.
And now every single tenniscourt's been abandoned for the
past 20 years and is only nowbeing used because of pickleball
.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
Yeah, that's true.
I mean I am.
That's a good point about thegame.
It's not.
It doesn't.
It does the opposite of makingit simpler.
It makes it just so much more.
You're right, you know guys,they hit it as far as they can
wedge it up there, try to makethe pot, where now you know

(48:40):
you're having to deal with withmiss hits, you know being able
to play your miss hit and thestrategy you're hitting, you're
actually hitting mid irons intopar fours, which is unheard of
now, and tour golf, you knowit's.
So it's a good point.
It makes it more fun, morecomplex, more way, more thought

(49:00):
and and skill.
I, you know, and, yeah, it's,it's what I, what I like to do.
I don't not trying to sellanybody on it, I don't know, but
I'm like man, like I've got ayou know my bag right behind it
one of them.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
But you know I've got three sets of irons.
I kind of rotate between.
I've got two sets of nationalcustoms that are made for me,
and then I got a set of mirrorsthat I'm pretty fond of.
I've got a set of 501s thatI've been playing for a few
years, but you know I'm playing,you know, a very traditional
head, but then I'm playing arrowtech steel fiber shafts in them
right, which are pretty darngood.

(49:36):
So it's like I kind of bounceback and forth and I've got like
mirror wedges but I've gotstability shafts in them.
And then, you know, I've got amodern driver, but like I'm, I
have no problem putting that Rnine super deep in play either,
and that's probably what I'mgoing to do and I go to London
here in a month or so becauseit's a low spend bomb baby, so
like that works real well overthere.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
But no, no, per semen you're not going to bring.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
If I can get some from you in time like that,
that's really my big of course,those courses are definitely
designed for to play per semen.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
So, yeah, we need to get to get this.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
I don't tell the story very often because I don't
think very many people wouldappreciate it, but you will.
So I was over.
I was very fortunate I got togo to the 150th Open
Championship.
People over here call theBritish Open but that's not
correct the Open Championshipover in at St Andrews in
Scotland.
It was incredible and I justhad the trip of trips.

(50:35):
I got so lucky and I ended upstaying just a little like maybe
10 minutes outside of StAndrews and I stayed across the
street from a golf course namedSt Michael's Golf Club.
I have the scorecard right here.
So St Michael's Golf Club overand St Andrews, scotland.
And because it was the summer,it was staying light to like 11

(50:56):
o'clock at night and likenormally for me, like you know,
it's long days when you work ontour and you're getting there at
like five in the morning, soyou know if you can get out of
there at six, seven o'clock atnight, like you're going to bed,
but it was light until like1030.
And I was like all right man,that's it.
I'm going to go over there onenight and play golf.
Like I'm in Scotland, I have toplay golf here.
So I one night go across thestreet, walk over there.

(51:19):
It's a very, very public golfcourse.
Right, it's nothing fancy atall, it's very municipality
style.
And I go in and I said do youhave any rental clubs?
And she says I'm sorry, hon, wedon't.
And I said OK, would you have alost?
And found she says it's outback.
So I found a ping rapture sixiron with like a senior flex
graphite shaft.
I found a Taylor made rescuedriving iron and I found a wedge

(51:47):
that didn't have any markingson it but I wish it had also
didn't have the grip, becausethe grip was the worst thing
about it.
And those are my three clubs.
And they let me go out and playwith three guys that were just
showing up after work andwhacking golf balls.
And, dude, like these guys werenot good golfers, they could
not hit a golf ball to savetheir lives.

(52:08):
But once we got within like ahundred and fifty yards of the
green, dude, these guys starthitting these little punch
runners and like all these crazylittle shots and they get in
the bunker and they hack it outand like, dude, these guys got
game from one fifty.
And and like, I'm out thereplaying with them, dude, with my
three clubs and like we had ablast and like I tell people

(52:29):
that story all the time, like ohman, that must have really
sucked.
And I have your golf clubs andI'm like it's better because I
didn't.
I had so much more fun likehaving to work shots and like
you know what it was a blastyeah that's what golf is right.
It's like just showing up andmaking friends and getting
getting it done, and I think Ishot 80 with three clubs, by the

(52:51):
way, so yeah yeah, no, nodriver to right no driver, no
putter.
Yeah, yeah with the wedge yeah,I like putting with wedges.
I don't like putting with likethe, the fairway woods or
anything like that.
And I hit all the tee shotswith the rescue and this place,
dude, if you remember the onefifty, if they were talking

(53:13):
about how hard the ground was,all the gravitas because like it
hadn't rained over there, sothe place I was playing was even
faster and it was like I mean,so you, I was hitting this
rescue like 300 yards easybecause I was just hammering it
as low as I could and it wouldjust run forever.
So it was good time yeah thatsounds fun.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
That's, I think, kind of why I like the half sets and
just hitting shots.
You know, it just makes.
It makes it a lot more, a lotmore thought goes into it, a lot
more feel, and yeah, thatsounds like a fun, fun round
there.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
Yeah, my goal for my goal for the pod dempsey
persimmon setup is I'd love tohave a driver, three within a
five would.
And the reason that I want boththe three and the five is
because you got to kind of learn, like, which time use which one
of those right, like that's.
That's kind of the persimmongame, like that's when fairway
woods actually mattered.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
Yeah, and a lot of guys that play with half sets.
They have me make them like afairway sized head with about 11
or 12 degrees loft.
So I can, you, can.
You need just one, would youknow?
You can hit it off the team toit low and then it can also be a
fairway would.
And so it's yeah, you're onlyonly have one.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Yeah, I played this driver.
Yeah, but the old thing tie asigh.
Yeah, I played it because itgot me an extra long club in the

(55:04):
bag because I didn't hit itvery far.
So it got me an extra likedriving iron that I could use
because I couldn't hit my longirons far enough.
And then I didn't need thethree would because I could just
rip this thing off the deck.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
That's great.
Yeah, I know that's, and nowthe heads are so big you can't
really hit them up.

Speaker 1 (55:22):
The problem is is like you literally have to choke
all the way up on it and thenyou literally have to teach
yourself to take a divot withyour driver because to your
point they're so tall that thecenter of the mass is not
sitting on the ground of thegolf ball or the club.
So you've got to figure out away how to get that center of
mass more down underneath theball and with the modern drivers

(55:44):
because they move the CG so farback and down Without forward
shaffling- yeah, that makessense.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
I know that's.
That was a great.
You know, with persimmon peoplewould hit him, hit him off the
fairway all the time.
They're such a smaller head.
It's a shot that was lost likeabout Florida golf actually is.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
I love the Bermuda fairway because you can just rip
drivers off the fairway all daylong, like the whole time we
were down in Florida, like Idon't think I hit my three would
off the fairway once.
I just like literally ripdriver every time because it
just kind of sits up on thatBermuda.

Speaker 2 (56:22):
Yeah, that's true, I know it's not.
That was a big part of my gamegrowing up and it kind of
disappeared with the, with thehuge heads.

Speaker 1 (56:32):
Yeah, it's just.
It's just heartening to watchthese all these like driver off
the deck videos on likeInstagram and stuff, because
it's like that used to be, justlike you had to have that shot
in the bag it was.
It's not a fancy shot dude.
I guess just a shot we all grewup having to have, because, I
mean, most of us, like I,couldn't afford a three would,
so I didn't have one, right, Iwas lucky to have the driver.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Any kind of lie in the fairway.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
Everybody was hitting , hitting drivers but the now
the rough like light rough youlike.
That was the time to hit thedriver, because the ball feet up
.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So yeah, for sure, my lastthing are you aware?

Speaker 1 (57:08):
I don't know if you've seen any of this Are you
aware of any of like this urbangolf movement stuff going on
where, like people were playinggolf in the streets?

Speaker 2 (57:18):
I've seen that?
Yeah, I don't.
I don't know much about it, butI do kind of a similar thing
here in my neighborhood.
I got a school across thestreet so I can hit up to a four
iron.
When the winds, the normal windout of the northeast, I can hit
up to about a four iron and andthen I go to the beach and
stuff.
But I city that sounds soundsscary, hitting it with cars and

(57:41):
windows and stuff.

Speaker 1 (57:41):
But so they play different balls.
So, like the guys over in theUK are using like they call it
I'm going to get this wrong Iwant to say they called it a
squib a ball and it's some kindof it's.
It's pretty springy, right, butit's not so springy that where
it's like it just won't stopgoing once it bounces.

(58:03):
You know what I mean.
So what they're saying is thatit tends to fly kind of soft, so
it doesn't like have apenetrating flight like our,
like our modern ball does.
It kind of floats, so when itlands it tends not to like break
windshields and stuff like thatis what they're doing.
But it's crazy and I think it'scool, because they're out there

(58:23):
with like super old blades, likethey're out there with the old
spulting and you know what Imean like the McGregors, and
they're out there with a bunchof old persimmon because, dude,
that you're whacking it offconcrete, you're not out there
with your set of mirrors and Ijust dude.
I think it really helps withthe access problem.
I think it Once again, anothercool way for people to get into
the game at a really low pricepoint.

(58:45):
Have some fun with it.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
Yeah, I love that.
I tend to avoid cities, but II'd like to try that sometime.
I got to track down some ofthose balls.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
I'm going to talk to I'm going to talk to when I'm
over in London here next monthand one of the organizations
over in Europe.
They have like a World Cup andit's wild like you can.
I think it's called theEuropean Golf Union or Golf
Urban Union, something like thatyou can look it up.
But they have like literallylike a World Cup and people come
from every like, from all thecountries, and they play and I

(59:19):
mean it's it's really kind oflike a beer fest meets golf kind
of situation a little bit, butI mean it's wild, man, and once
again people are having fun andnot to get into a subject that
we don't need to, but you knowpeople want to blast.
You know the live golf thingand I've been to two events and
once again there's young peoplethere having fun and I'm all for

(59:40):
it, man, if it gets youngpeople involved and it gets them
outside and it gets them doingsomething to where they can
express themselves and becompetitive and learn you know
some amazing things aboutthemselves at the same time, I'm
all for it.

Speaker 2 (59:54):
Yeah, yeah, I don't.
I mean, I'm kind of atraditionalist and history you
know, so I'm still having alittle trouble with it.
I don't, I don't blame anybodyfor playing it.
I do it myself probably, but Ijust, you know, I I don't know
how, in 30 years from now, ifanybody will care who won the

(01:00:18):
Las Vegas live event, but maybethat doesn't matter as long as
people are springing people tothe game and that's one thing
I've really noticed is I talkabout this a lot with parents,
with the youngsters that I workwith, but it's like we have this
like real linkage to historylike we do, that Young people

(01:00:41):
don't.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
They're not really into antiques, they're not
really into old stuff, they'renot really like they think it's
cool, but from like a commercialapplication, like they like a
vintage edition you know what Imean like they don't actually
like old thing and.
I think to your point, man.
I think it's heartbreakingbecause those records and those
memories mean so much to us.

(01:01:03):
But I think, by and large, man,I think a lot of that's going
to go with our generation and Ithink that you know, it's not
really about what people aregoing to remember 20 years from
now.
I think it's what do peoplethink of you now?
And unfortunately I don'tnecessarily agree with that way
of thinking, but that does seemto be kind of the standard issue
way of thinking right now, towhere it's about fame and money

(01:01:26):
and everybody's trying to gettheirs.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
Yeah, it's definitely different, different world that
live, but it's.
I got plenty of friends, Idon't blame them.
Looks like.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Ever shown up here and offer me 600 million.
If they do, I let you know howgood my ethics are, but for
right now, like I can saywhatever, but you know it's just
, it's I've.
I've not made a million dollarsin my life and I probably never
will.
But at the end of the day, youknow $600 million is life
changing money and you know Ihave a hard time Like thinking

(01:02:02):
to myself that, as a providerand as a person that's married
and has a family and those likeyou have the opportunity to like
ensure that your family neverwants for anything.
And I think that would be areally hard thing to say no to.

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
I agree.
I mean, a lot of these guysthink we're, we're pretty set
anyway, so I guess how much isenough.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
but I, yeah, I agree, yeah, I mean unfortunately,
I've never met a human beingthat told me they had too much
money.
So I don't think enough is ever.
Enough is kind of the problemwith money, apparently.
Yeah yeah.
So, man, this has been great.
I really enjoyed it.
Todd is an amazing person.
I love the story, the tenacity,and what I really love is just,

(01:02:49):
you know, an unwavering kind ofsensibility and doing it for
the reasons that he loves andnot letting those reasons be
changed by anybody else.
So, todd, thank you very muchfor joining us.
I really do appreciate it.
Thanks, mike.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Yeah, it's been great and, if you're interested, he's
got a really cool.
I think it almost looks curated, but it definitely isn't.
It's just he's a cool guy.
But if you go over to Todd'sInstagram page Todd Dempsey golf
you can check out some of theamazing work that he does with
the persimmons.
I highly recommend you get one.
I will definitely be playingone in the very near future, for

(01:03:27):
sure, and hopefully playingright alongside Todd as well.
So thanks so much for listeningthis episode.
Make sure to download andsubscribe wherever you get your
podcast and, as always, untilnext time, keep grinding.