Understanding Your Short Game Recipe with the Short Game Chef

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
after that, like I'll kind of throw it to you and
we'll talk a little bit, and Igot a few questions and we'll
rock and roll.
Love it All.
Right, cool, you ready.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
All right, my man.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of the measured golf
podcast.
It's a new season with lots ofnew guests and, man, we have
been very fortunate this year toreally have a great lineup for
everybody listening.
So, without further ado, thisweek we are very privileged to
be joined by none other than thechef himself, and that is the

(00:30):
short game chef.
For those of you unfamiliar, mrParker McLaughlin.
Great guy, love Parker, loveswhat he does, and one of the
things that is really cool aboutParker is that he has this
crazy family of athletes.
And like, when I say a crazyfamily of athletes, I mean he's
got a family full.
I think one was an Olympian, ifI'm not mistaken.

(00:51):
So I mean I'm talking aboutvolleyball athletes that grew up
in Hawaii and probably can jumpthrough a gym.
But Parker isn't on here totalk about how he can jump
through a gym and hit bombs.
Parker is actually here to talkabout how he's got these
magical recipes for everybodywhen it comes to the short game.
And I think Parker has a veryunique perspective on the short

(01:12):
game, not so much that hisconcepts are completely
far-fetched and different fromwhat's been taught in the past,
but I think Parker has a verydifferent communication style
than most would when it comes tohow they help people play
better with their short game.
So, without further ado, theman, the myth, the legend, the
chef himself Parker's here.
So, parker, how are you doing,buddy?

Speaker 2 (01:32):
I'm great, michael.
Thanks for having me, man, I'mstoked to get into this
conversation with you.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Yeah, I mean it's kind of funny because if you
look at the industry right now,I think that the hitting bombs
phase is starting maybe to cooljust a little bit.
I don't think it's goinganywhere.
I think people still arehitting bombs, but I think it's
starting to cool a little bitbecause people are realizing
that no matter how good at golfyou are, you still miss greens

(01:59):
and if you want to try to shoota low score, then you need to be
able to protect yourself whenyou miss those greens.
Want to try to shoot a lowscore, then you need to be able
to protect yourself when youmiss those greens, and the
chances of being able to hit abump and run seven iron all the
time are probably pretty limited.
So I think guys like you arereally bringing a lot of
attention to the short game andI definitely think it's one of
those areas to where we needmore attention.
So I applaud you for bringingmore attention to the short game

(02:22):
.
But I'm just curious, like youknow, when you were coming out
here and wanting to be a coachand making that transition,
because you were a player and Imean you won on tour, right?
So Reno Tahoe Open, I believein 2008 was a win for you.
So I mean, it's not just thatyou were a player, it's not just
that you were a guy that won,but, like, you went out there
and had that career and thatidentity and then decided to get

(02:45):
into coaching and I'm justcurious as to what kind of made
you want to, like, sink yourteeth into the short game
specifically?
I know that you're well-roundedand can coach other areas, but
you are known as being the shortgame chef.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
No, I think you know I would say this is going to be
probably a fairly long answer,but you know, I think yeah, I
think that I think that goodcoaches you know, they've got
good information they can, theycan observe what a player is
doing, you know, potentiallyincorrectly or maybe

(03:21):
inefficiently, and they can,they can get right to the root
cause of that.
And then the final piece Ithink you know of like a main
tenant of coaching is likecommunication skills.
Can you communicate in a waythat your student is going to
understand?
So I, you know, you kind ofgave me that great intro with
like my, you know, my mom wasactually an Olympian.

(03:43):
My dad was a two-sport athleteat Stanford.
My brother was a GatoradeBasketball Player of the Year in
Hawaii as a senior in highschool, but also the National
Player of the Year forvolleyball and went to Stanford
and won a national championshipat Stanford.
But now my dad has been a.

(04:05):
He was a Barack Obama'sbasketball coach.
He's been coaching basketballand volleyball for 45 years.
He's also a broadcaster inHawaii, commentates all the
University of Hawaii men's andwomen's games for volleyball
that's awesome.
And my brother is now.
He's at his maybe fourth schoolcoaching volleyball.

(04:26):
So he's at USC in SouthernCalifornia there and he's
coaching he's the associate headcoach at USC Women's Volleyball
.
So the communication skills Ifeel like I've sort of inherited
or developed over a long periodof time.
I remember specifically goingto do the PGA Tour Lives.

(04:48):
I did 30 PGA Tour Lives as I wassort of transitioning out of
playing and I was needing somework and whatnot.
It was a great thing to do, butone of the things that it really
helped me with was taking athree or four minute thought and
bringing it down to like a 20second soundbite that I could

(05:10):
deliver from when the shot washit to then when we cut to the
next shot.
And so I really had to developmy thoughts and really put my
thoughts in a way that I could.
I could deliver a a four minutethought in a 20-second
soundbite.
And so that communication sortof skill was honed sort of

(05:31):
through my parents, through mybrother, through myself working
at it and trying to become abetter communicator.
And I think one of the thingsthat we get comments on for our
website and the program that wehave there is on how easy and
digestible and easy tounderstand it really is, and so

(05:55):
I think that's something like Itake a lot of pride in is just
making it simple, taking it fromlike something that can be very
, very complex and just bringingit down and boiling it down
into something simple,applicable and that somebody can
really get in the first two orthree swings and they're like,
boom, I got it to be able tolike kind of say it quicker,

(06:28):
right, like by doing the PGAtour live.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
And then it was like because you needed to, let's say
, optimize your delivery rightTo kind of turn it back into
golf.
Like you kind of went throughthe skill of learning how to
really be more concise, with notonly how you spoke about it but
also the thought process behindit that allowed you to kind of
turn four minutes into 20seconds.
So I definitely think thatthat's interesting.
I take I've never had to do PGATour a lot, so luckily I would

(06:53):
be terrible at it because I'mthe opposite.
I like to take and reallyexplain the concept itself to
somebody, because I trulybelieve that most golfers are
truly way better golfers thanthey think they are, and I think
they know that because they'veseen themselves do incredible
things with a golf club in theirhand.
So golf is very weird thing towhere you can see your potential

(07:14):
before you can really own it.
You know what I mean.
Like you can hit that one greatshot out of a large bucket.
It doesn't mean you're going togo hit every great shot, you
know what I mean.
So it's it's tough because wesee that potential, but where I
think it's really difficult forgolfers is that most of the time
when you try to explainsomething to them, even
something as simple as hey, yourclub path is way too out to end

(07:37):
or into out.
Even just explaining that,sometimes like they don't
understand what you mean.
Like they understand maybe thatthat means the golf club is
moving rightward at impact orleftward impact, but they don't
understand that the golf clubhad to move from someplace
previously.
And that's where, like, I thinkexplaining concepts to people
is mega, mega helpful and thenkind of reverse engineering from

(08:00):
the full concept into thesimple and the applicable,
because me explaining and mecoaching, right, like I think I
wear both hats when I coach.
I think I'm an instructor and acoach.
It's my job to instruct in thekind of pre-work of what we're
going to try to do.
Hey, here's the concept we'retalking about, here's what I
mean when I say this.
And then from here we're goingto talk about what you're going

(08:23):
to do, and that's what I thinkyou do incredibly well is that
you have a credential that I cannever have, or I mean maybe
eventually, but it'd take a lotof work.
You're a winning tour player,right?
I've never even played on tour.
So if I'm standing on the onthe short game area and I go hey
and I go Mayo on them, I want,like I want you to hit 10 down

(08:43):
on this.
They're like I don't know man,that sounds a little iffy.
I've never heard that before.
But if I'm you, because I havethat pedigree and I have that
distinction, people are morelikely to buy into what you're
saying.
And I think what you do is youstay very, very true to where
you're coming from and you kindof more or less I hate to say it

(09:04):
this way because it sounds likeI'm diminishing, because I'm
not but you come very much fromthe player perspective.
I feel like I come very muchfrom an outsider perspective,
the coach coming in but youdefinitely are kind of teaching
more what I would describe as aninside out approach.
Hey, this is what I feel, thisis what I'm trying to do, this
is what I should see, if I feelthat, okay, cool, let's try that

(09:25):
and see if it lines up.
And I think that's amazingbecause that's what players have
available on the course.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, well, and and and.
Not all, not all players aregreat coaches.
You know, I think it it takesyou sort of have to remove
yourself a little bit, becauseit's like I'm not always just

(09:51):
telling people like, hey, thisis my feel, right, I've got.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
I mean, you've seen it, there's a million different
types of matchups and swingsRight, and so you know, in all
honesty, recipes, recipesexactly, and there's certain
things that match up right, likeyou're not going to put.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
Like you're going to put vanilla and cinnamon, like
those things go together, butyou're not going to.
You know, be like I'm going tothrow some coriander and some
paprika and I'm going to alsoadd some lemon spice and you're
like, well, that doesn't gotogether.
So it's like, you know, I thinkone of the things that I wanted
to do is like I I know my laneright.
Like I was, I was very good atshort game.

(10:21):
I knew sort of the the tenantsof like what what short game,
what things worked, what thingsdidn't work under pressure, what
things worked and didn't work.
Putting as well I was.
I was very good at those things, but I mean, I got.
I got to say that my, myeducation, a lot of my education

(10:43):
, came sort of after I had lostmy card and I was able to spend
a bunch of time with PaulAzinger and a lot of my
education came from learningfrom him, asking him questions.
He was one of those players andI don't know if I mean he's
sort of, he's sort of one ofthose guys where it's like he
was on TV and he was like everyweekend and I don't think we

(11:05):
fully appreciated the golf iqthat he has.
I remember, you know I, I spentseven, eight years, you know,
hanging with zinger uh, he was,you know I.
I'd gone to a dark place withmy own golf game and my own golf
swing and zinger was a a hugefriend and mentor to me.

(11:27):
I had known him when I was 16years old, when he would come to
Hawaii and play play the Sonyopen.
He'd come a week early and wewould.
I played nine holes with himwhen I was 16.
So I've known him for a long,long time and you know it was.
It was funny because, as Istarted to get to know him in
2008, I won the reno tahoe open,which was like just before the

(11:49):
pga championship, which was justbefore the rider cup that he
was captaining, and in that liketime frame, basically every
european had won.
Nobody from america won.
Basically the previous twomonths leading up to, like the
PGA championship, the Ryder cupwas like Padraig Harrington,
vijay Sergio, all these guyswere winning.

(12:11):
I was the only American thatwon and it was my second year on
tour.
It was an opposite event, butZinger happened to tell me
afterwards he's like dude, Ialmost called you because you
were the only American that hadwon and I was like, oh, I don't
know if I'd have been ready forthat spotlight.
But anyway, zinger took me underhis wing and and and this guy

(12:32):
is unbelievably smart when itcomes to digging it out of the
dirt and checking things off thebox of like okay, I'm going to
try to hinge it and release itand see what ball flight that
comes with into the grain down,grain tight lie, bear, lie.
First cut what you know out ofthe full rough like and he would
check these things off of thebox Like.

(12:54):
He, like he was so systematicabout it and it was really
fascinating to to be able tospend this much time with him
and then play around with allright, what am I doing with my?
With my weight positioning?
What?
am I doing with the hinge?
What am I doing with my bodyrotation?
What am I doing with all thesethings?
And then, how do they all matchup?
And then what can I see?
As far as a ball flight goes,what am I doing with shaft lean?

(13:17):
What am I doing with just allthe varieties of things that you
can kind of put together whenit comes to short game?
And as we started playingaround with some of these things
, zinger's like dude, why areyou leaning that shaft so far
forward?
Why are you?
Why like your balls coming outso hot, like let's, how would
you soften that thing?

(13:37):
And one of the one of the firstlessons we had was like.
He was just like.
He's like all right, hit me,hit me a high one, just a
slightly high shot off of abermuda grass, putting green
into the grain, and I was likedude, I don't think that I can.
And he's like no, he's likelet's go.
And so, anyway, I took a bigold chunk out of the green and

(14:00):
he's like you are an absoluteidiot, how you're, you've won on
tour or whatever.
Like you, how do you not knowhow to hit this shot?
So anyway, that was sort oflike my first real introduction
to like learning how to use thebounce, learning how to engage
the bounce, and it was like allof a sudden I'm like, oh my gosh
, this, this finger would hitthese 30, 40, 50 yard pitch

(14:23):
shots, where I was like I'venever heard a sound like that in
my life.
And I've played on tour, I'veplayed with anthony, I played
with dustin, I played with phil.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
I mean I've, I've played with real quick speaking
of, I think, most underratedwedge player of all time, dj
yeah, and d and DJ plays fromlike slightly shut right Like
you don't.
And lays it dude, like if youwatch him work the handle from
about mid down through.
You want to talk about likegetting an ideal situation for

(14:58):
never having one come off hot,like you were talking about,
because, like you said hedelivered, he wants to deliver
it closed.
So then he almost like backs itout and dude.
You talk about just creatingthis like perfect little face to
path scenario and like you canjust kind of make those things
come off buttery smooth.
Yeah, I watched him at augustanational for about 30 minutes
and just amazement and how farand how high he picked it up and

(15:22):
would just lay it down, man,and I mean I mean I've seen
Tiger do it a bunch.
I've seen a lot of reallytalented guys with a wedge.
I was fortunate to be aroundDavis Love a lot back in like
2009 out in Sun Valley when hewas out there not fly fishing,
which he was fly fishing most ofthe time but when he wasn't, I
got to watch him and I mean it'sjust like you see guys make big

(15:43):
swings and like we all think ofTiger at Muirfield and the big
flop you know that he knocked inand things like that but it's
like DJ's kind of made like acareer, like that's kind of a
stock shot for him and he justkind of throws it way up there
and it just lands really softand he's just kind of like, use
that shot, I think reallyeffectively for most of his

(16:04):
career.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, and there's different ways to sort of soften
the golf ball and that, andthat's sort of like.
You know, one of the thingsthat I learned from Zinger is
just like how, how do I softenthe golf ball while still
maintaining some spin on it?
And I think that, yes, you can.
You can obviously like rollthat club face with your hands
or your forearms.
You can roll that club facewith your hands or your forearms
.
You can roll that club faceopen, but you also don't have to

(16:25):
right, like you can, you canalso leave that face square.
Or, like you know, like I wasshowing a guy this morning that
I was working with and and I Iwas showing him uh, I just
started working with this kevindoherty, um, who bombs it, and
and used to roll that face open,but he would have like some
sort of retraction with his,with his trail elbow, and it was

(16:49):
just like he just thought okaysuper hard to time and he just
thought well, I got to take moreball speed off by rolling it
more open.
And it was like, dude, you'reyou're missing, like that's the
bandaid, like you're missing thereal focus and the real reason
as to why you're creating somuch ball speed, which was this

(17:10):
trail elbow.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
Would you say that most and I know you're talking
about a really good player andI'm going to leave this open to
both really good players and notso really good players, players
and not so really good playersbut would you agree with me that
one of the biggest problemspeople have when they're trying
to hit wedges is that everybodyimmediately wants to open the
face?

Speaker 2 (17:32):
yeah, and and like, if you get halfway back and and
if that face is, let's say,square to your spine angle, um,
dude, you can, you can, you canhit some amazing shots from
there, whatever you want, itdoes not it does not need to be
open, you do not need to, youdon't need to flare that thing
open.
Right, it's just like.
Again, I I'm from the school oflike let's, let's make it

(17:53):
really simple to start with andthen we can get really creative
off of that.
But you gotta have simple.
Like DJ, when he revamped his,his, his, his short game and his
wedge play, like he just wentsimple.
It was like dude, there wasminimal wrist right, he, just,
he just pivoted a lot of width,no wrist tons of width and then
all of a sudden he was like no,he was super shallow through the

(18:15):
turf and it was like he couldclip it.
So he went from like being ableto smash it to then and using
the ground quite a bit, to thenjust clipping it.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
But I would describe dj right, like kind of what you
were talking about with yourplayer this morning, to where
it's like you know a lot of thelet's say I'm gonna, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna try my best here.
Chef, you tell me how I'm doinghere.
If you like, have ingredientsthat you tend to use, they give
you like a superpower with thedriver, which is how I would
describe dj.

(18:44):
Right, like that was hissuperpower, right, like those
recipes are good for that, butthen at the other lane of that
recipe per what the task is.
So, like I'm not a foodie atall, like I'm a vegetarian, uh,

(19:12):
so like, apparently I hate foodis what that means, I guess.
But anyway, like I've been to acouple places where they do some
like fine dining and I alwaysenjoy the places to where, like,
they deconstruct something andlike it's still that, but it's
in a completely differentpresentation.
Right, and it's kind of whatwe're talking about here.
It's like you can hit a pitchshot and they can look a lot of

(19:33):
different ways, but like, at theend of the day, I still need to
taste pitch shot when I eat it.
Like, if I'm trying to do pitchshot and tasting steak,
something's gone terribly amiss.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
Like absolutely, and then and then, as a as a good
player, even as a bad player,you're going to see
compensations or reactionsthrough impact to try to soften
it Right.
It's like you know I get a lotof guys that smash the golf ball
that come to see me and they'relike I hit it, I smash it, you
know 185 ball speed, but youknow I I'm terrible inside of 50
yards and it's like cause it'sa totally different skillset

(20:11):
Like you want to be able toremove them, the things that you
do so well with your driver andyour irons.
We need to remove all thoseingredients and just reconstruct
something for inside of 50yards, off of a tight fairway
lie, that's.
That's where I'm always likeit's almost you got to
compartmentalize it right, thesame way that you're not going
to make the same swing with aseven iron as you'd make with a

(20:34):
driver two different swingsright there's some, there's some
similarities, but it's you'rehitting way up on one, you're
hitting down on another, likeyou're trying to compress one,
you're trying to like sendanother one, two fair, two
fairly different sort ofphilosophies, and same thing
goes once you're inside of 50yards.
It's like dude, I don't want, Idon't want a bunch of shaffling

(20:58):
, I don't want a bunch ofcompression on this golf ball.
That's inside of 50 yards, offa tight fairway line.
And I would say, maybe, youknow, maybe that range is sort
of different.
It depends on how far the guyhits it.
Like a 185 ball speed guy, it'sprobably like 50, 55, 60 yards.
A 140 ball speed guy, it'sprobably more.

(21:19):
Like inside of 30 yards.
Right, it's like for the guythat's 140 ball speed, your
recreational golfer, it's likedude, I'm building in a lot more
compression from about 40 yards50 yards.
Like.
I'm like, dude, we need to likelean that shaft, we need to
like get that pressure goingmore forward.
Um, in the downswing, I wantyou, stepping through and

(21:41):
walking through this thing, tocreate that, create that
compression, because they're notgetting the same amount of
compression as a tour player whonormally is really good at
compression.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Right.
I mean they're just not verysimilar things.
I mean, when you go, you know Iget it and I've been fortunate,
I've spent a lot of time outthere.
I also am fortunate and spent alot of time on public golf
courses playing public golf withpeople I got paired up with.
So I mean I definitely get afair view of both things and I
get it.

(22:12):
Like it's really impressivewatching guys and girls that are
professional players hit teeshots.
It really is.
There's nothing that I can sayabout it that doesn't make you
want to go and see them do it,nothing that I can say about it
that doesn't make you want to goand see them do it.
But the thing that they totallyget undersold on man is like
the way that they controltrajectories and spin rates and

(22:33):
I mean it's just my favoritething about Augusta National and
I know that this is like theone thing that they actually
didn't do, right, I believe ornot.
There are things, ladies andgentlemen, that Augusta doesn't
have't have perfect.
Please don't take my ticketprivileges, but like they have
an uphill driving range, right?
The tournament practice groundsis an uphill range, correct,

(22:53):
right?
You've been there a bunch andlike, generally, what's a golfer
hate the most?
An uphill range because theball doesn't look like it goes
very far.
Right, but here's the reason Ilove the uphill range and here's
why I think augustaa actuallygot it right.
So now they'll give me mytickets back.
So the reason I think it's greatis because because it's dark as
the ball is flying, becauseit's uphill and you're using the

(23:14):
turf as the background, you cankind of like I'm getting older
so I can't see the ball as longas I used to, but like you can
actually see the ball fall.
And that's the thing that likepeople don't, like I think
amateur golfers don't get isthat when you watch that golf
ball fall, that thing isfloating to the ground.
It's not in a free fall.

(23:35):
It doesn't like change speedson the way down.
Like that is literally themmanaging the spin rate of that
golf ball.
And I think when you reallyAugusta's great at this because
you have the short game areakind of right next to the range,
but like when you're able tosit there and watch these guys
hit a lot of partial wedges, youwatch them and they're always

(23:55):
telling you to like watch thegolf ball all the way through.
The reason is is because youshould be trying to figure out
if that golf ball is spinningthe right amount or not Right In
my opinion.
So it's really interesting tosee how undersold those guys
short game is relative to howoversold the fact that they hit
their driver so far is becauseit's way harder, in my opinion,

(24:17):
to hit the wedge shot than it isthe drive yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
And I, and I think that you know, one of the things
that kind of gets missed is theland angle.
I think that that gets missedin the short game measurements
that have been so popular in thelast year.
Is that land angle getsforgotten about?
It's all talk about launchangle, it's all talk about spin

(24:41):
rate.
It's all talk about angle ofattack.
It's like, bro I, I, I don'tcare as much about those things
as I do about marrying a landangle with spin rate.
Those are the things thatreally matter to me.
Um, because that's how I'm goingto get the golf ball to stop
the quickest and if I'm a, ifI'm a pga tour player and I'm

(25:02):
looking at a a 35, 40 yard shot,and this pins four paces on and
as they all are or it's, orit's over a bunker and four
paces over the boat.
They're all four paces Right.
And so let's just say it's it'sfront edge of the green and
it's slightly up to the green.
Well, I need to figure out howI can land this on the green.

(25:26):
Right American golf you have toland it on the green.
You play golf in Scotland,england, all the other places
Totally different.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
You can absolutely run it up and all that.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
But American golf, if you're hitting a short game
shot, the goal is to land theball onto the green.
Okay, that's going to be yourmost predictable, you know,
first bounce.
Okay, so you want to land thisball on the green.
So I got to land this thing.
Let's say it's 35 yards.
I got to land it 35 yards ontothe front edge of the green.
The pin is 39.
So I need to know exactly likemy land angle, mixed in with a

(26:00):
good spin rate, so this ball canland and stop within four paces
.
A good spin rate, so this ballcan land and stop within four
paces.
Now, if I launched this thingat 27, 28 from 30 yards, it's
going to be about six, seven,potentially eight, as far as
like where it lands to where itstops.
That's not good enough at thePGA tour level.
You need to marry a little bitof height with a little bit of
spin and that's how you're goingto get the ball to stop in the

(26:24):
quickest fashion or or the mostlike.
Obviously, like I want it tostop within four, that's.
That's sort of like my thoughtprocess.
Like from about 20 to 50, Iwant it to stop within about
four, four and a half paces.
So it gives me like kind ofthat mid trajectory with the
right amount of spin rate and itgives me for myself and for my

(26:47):
players, it gives me the mostsort of margin of error around
the golf ball.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
So I love what you're talking about and before we
switch gears just slightly, Ikind of want to throw this at
you.
I recently learned somethingthat's been pretty helpful in my
life, and what I recentlylearned is that two things can
be right at the same time, right?
Yeah, like, feel and real canbe completely different, but at

(27:17):
the end of the day it doesn'treally matter, right?
So at the end of the day, Idon't think the guys like me who
have to use technology to kindof understand it are wrong.
I also don't think guys likeyou that can stand over it and
kind of see that and feel thatand manipulate that and create

(27:38):
that are wrong either.
And, as a matter of fact, ifyou made me pick one of the two
and I'm picking against myselfhere I'm going to pick the guy
who can feel it over, the guywho understands it better every
day of the week.
Cause when it comes to playinggolf, man, it's about what you
feel in that moment, being ableto manage those feelings and
execute right.
Like you, you gotta have thatLike.

(28:00):
If you don't have that like, wecan't do the tournament golf
thing.
Like you can know it all, butthat doesn't mean you can do it
when it matters most, right?
So, interestingly enough, youknow, I kind of think of myself
when it comes to this because asa player I was never as good as
I wanted to be.
I certainly wasn't good enoughto play on the PGA tour when I
was younger.
But, with that being said, Ihad, like some fundamental

(28:23):
probably ingredients in myrecipe that were really getting
in the way for me to be able tofundamentally create the loft
scenario I needed to create atthe ball, to create the
appropriate amount of spin.
So I definitely understood tokind of use some of Joe Mayo's
vertical swing plane kind ofvernacular and track man

(28:44):
terminology.
I definitely understood that Iwasn't creating enough spin
because I wasn't hitting down onit enough.
I definitely understood thatfrom a playing perspective.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
But what I didn't understand, what was your what
was your attack angle prior Ihave no idea.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
I wasn't measuring back then okay but I was
definitely hitting the groundfirst, for sure.
Okay, so here's what I figuredout.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah, finish up.
And then I've got a question Iwant to pose to you.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah, yeah.
So I was trying to get the headup, but I was doing it by
raising my hand.
I wasn't raising the club head,I was just raising my hand.
So then the path would getsuper steep and out to end right
, which we know is workingagainst us in terms of softening
that face.
So, like for me it was reallyreally difficult to figure that

(29:31):
out.
But then once I like became whoI am and learn the stuff I've
learned and like started beingable to measure things, then it
all kind of started making senseto me.
But I didn't have what you havethat let you be a PGA tour
player and I kind of had toreverse engineer it and figure
it out in entirety.
And then once I kind of knewwhat numbers, then it was like I

(29:52):
could figure out how to do theindividual numbers and then
piece it together.
So I just think it's really,really interesting this
conversation, because I don'tthink anybody's wrong and I
don't think anybody's right.
The only thing I do know isnobody's all the way right,
because nobody helps everysingle person every single time,
no matter how good you are.
Like it just doesn't work thatway.

(30:15):
So I really, really think it'scool, man listening to you talk
about this and I think you'reright.
Like and I haven't said thisyet, but I am bad about Taryn
commentators a new one because Ithink they say a lot of things
that aren't factually true onebecause I think they say a lot
of things that aren't factuallytrue.
But what you have to realize iswhen you're listening to
somebody who's played as muchgolf and like these commentators
, man are worth their weight ingold, but they're speaking from
more of a feel basis and whatthey felt and what they did, and

(30:39):
that doesn't make it wrong.
Yes, they may say that they'recrazy shallow and have a 10
angle of have an angle of attack.
That's 10 down.
That's totally cool.
Like what you feel versus whatyou're like nobody cares if you
make a hole-in-one.
They tell you to buy everybodya beer.
They don't ask you what yourclub path was right you know
what I mean.
Like it's, I love how you kindof are and I think this is why

(31:02):
you're good at what you do.
Like at the end of the like,don't tell me about the delivery
, don't tell me about the driveto the hospital.
Just show me the baby picture.
Does it stop?
Within four yes or no, like ifit does great.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
If it doesn't, let's always about that individual
player and what it is that theyneed.
I've taken away shafling, I'vebrought back shafling, right,
it's like it.
It all depends on who is theguy that's showing up to me that

(31:34):
day and what is it what?
What ingredients does that guyneed to hit that the shot that
it's like?
In my eye I'm like that's thatmid trajectory.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
I don't think you're a shallow coach dude.
I.
I don't like.
I know you get.
I don't think you're a shallowcoach dude, I don't like.
I know you get labeled that way, but like I know I get labeled
that way but only because, onlybecause I've just been.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
I just don't think that the full story is being
told.
I think that I think that theywant it to fit a narrative.

Speaker 1 (31:58):
They want you know, you to be the alpha, omega,
whichever you pick Right, andthey want joe to be the opposite
.
And then they want to say thisencompasses all short game.
But I don't think what you guysare saying is different.
I really don't like.
I I think you both are very,very good problem solvers and I
think that one of you isprobably and I'm not trying to

(32:19):
slam either one, but I think oneof you is just more creative
and how you go about it than theother, and I think the other
one is more analytical, andthank God for that man, because
we have definitely both types ofgolfers out there.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah for sure.
Well, and I think I think too,I mean, you know, like one of
the one of the points of what Iwas saying about you know that
35 yard shot is that that's a.
You know, I get every, almostevery tour player that's come to
me right, I've probably workedwith 25 on the on the PGA tour,

(32:53):
25 or 30 guys on the PGA tour,um, yeah, so let's just say, out
of the 25 or 30 guys on the PGAtour that that I've worked with
almost everyone to a man.
95% of them is like I hit thelow spinner, no problem, I, I
have such a hard time hittingthe mid trajectory or the higher

(33:15):
trajectory spinner, like almostto a man.
And so it's like you know they,they don't need, they don't,
they don't need to go more thisway.
They need to understand how togo more this way without losing
their spin Right and so themgoing.
If they're going 15 degrees down, it's going to be coming out
faster.

(33:35):
So it's about removing thosethings that are going to make
that ball go faster.
So my job is to figure out,okay, what things can I remove
and yet still maintain speed andspin right?
Because the question I wasgoing to pose to you was let's
say you've got player A andplayer B and player A and player
B are both hitting at 20-yardshots.

(33:56):
Player A and player B are alsoboth 5 degrees angle of attack
down angle of attack down.
Let's say you add seven degreesof angle of attack to player a
and you add seven miles per hourof club head speed to player b.
Who's gonna spin the ball more?

Speaker 1 (34:15):
player b or if that's the guy that had more speed.
I think that's what you saidyeah yeah, don't, you think,
don't?

Speaker 2 (34:20):
you think, don't you think player b would so?
I mean assuming like all elseremains like he still is at five
down and all.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, I, I can't do the math that fast, I'll stop my
head.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
But yeah, speed is king when it comes to spin
especially, especially on theseshorter type of shots, right
where it's like, yeah, becausewhat people?

Speaker 1 (34:38):
don't get.
Man is like and and I I do wantto mention this, I, I want to be
very careful here because Iwant to mention something that's
super positive, but I reallythink that golfers don't
understand wedge design and howit works, and I hate to tell
them, but it's not the groovecreating the spin, it's the
surface friction creating thespin.

(34:58):
Right, and that's what peopleare really being misled by, I
think, is that they don'tnecessarily understand that,
like, how to create.
You're not hitting it hardenough to dig that thing into
the grooves at least we hope noton like that 20 yard shot like
we were just talking about,right, correct.
So it's like it's this surfacefriction and if I want to make

(35:19):
that happen and I want to create, if I go slow nothing happens,
but if I get those things moving, I can generate a little heat
and friction right.
So it's like speed is the kingand unfortunately, because of
exactly what we've talked aboutthus far, with people kind of
playing from a strong faceposition mostly, it's like you
can't add speed to it becausethen you're going to knock the

(35:39):
thing onto the next t-box unlessyou take away speed in every
other area, where it's set up,where it's shaft, lean, where
it's backswing, how much, howmuch set you've got the path of
it.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
All that stuff, in my opinion, plays into how much
speed you can actually deliverto the golf ball, and so that
that's where that's where I justthink that that gets a bit
forgotten about.
Number one it's it's like it'splayability, right, it's like
dude.
I mean, no doubt the lowspinner is fun, it's cool, it's
a neat shot to hit, but it'salso a shot that I mean like I

(36:14):
was hitting that shot it's ahigh risk shot.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
It's a very high risk shot it's a.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
you know, I was hitting that shot when I was 16,
17 years old, right, and I andI played a lot of it, you know,
growing up, and then all of asudden I'm like, well, that's
fairly limiting as far as likeplayability, wise right and and
my and my margin of error islike really small.
Yeah, so you know, it's like I,I like, I think, as tour

(36:41):
players and I've I've obviouslybeen one, I've now, with 25, 30
of them, I've gotten to bearound like Steve Stricker,
jason Day, matt Kuchar, camSmith, who are like unbelievable
wedgers and they're just likewe know we're not perfect.
I want to build in, like theseguys are telling me, like I want

(37:02):
to build in some bit of abilityfor the bounce to to come in if
I happen to make a mistake theyknow they're not perfect, and
these guys are the best wedgerson the planet and they know
they're not perfect.
So what like they?
They're not trying?
I mean, if they're the bestwedgers on the planet, why would
they not just be 12 to 15degrees down on every shot,

(37:23):
because they know they're goingto hit it perfect?
It's like they know that ifthey're 12 to 15 down on every
shot, they are not going to beperfect and they know they're
going to mess up and it's likethey want to have their.
They want to have their mishits, their mess ups, be four to six
feet from the hole or a tap in.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
They don't want their mess ups to be hit too hard or
potentially chunked.
I don't know where you fall onthe list of things like nerdy,
wise, like seem like you're apretty cool guy, Good looking
guy from Hawaii, Probably nottoo nerdy, but like nerds like
me.
You know we have these listsand we love to rank everything
and on my, in my opinion, mypersonal opinion, I think that
on the Mount Rushmore of golfinstructors there should only be
one guy and I'm okay with itbeing Pete Cowan.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
Like that's totally fine with me Like.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
I love Pete.
Uh, I wear a lot of black inhonor of Pete, like he's my hero
.
I love Pete Cowan.
I think he's a master.
So, with that being said, I'mcurious have you ever heard and
I hope I don't get in troublefor this, but I'm gonna tell it
anyway because I've alwayswanted to tell this story?
It's my favorite golf coachstory ever.
But have you ever heard thestory about cowan and uh kepka?

Speaker 2 (38:33):
uh, I may have.
I spent.
I spent a little bit of timewith uh jeff pierce who kind of
helps.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Jeff knows kepka real well.
Yeah, yeah.
So I know jeff pretty well, thecool guy ask him to tell you
the story.
He'll probably tell you theexact same story, but the story
is I know it is that Brooks wason the challenge shore, was, you
know, kind of doing a thing andlearning how to become like a
tour player and like learningsome different shots and whatnot
, and I guess was struggling,maybe a bit, and went and

(38:58):
finally got with Pete right andI had a relationship with Pete
for a while and Pete kind of hadgiven him the run through and
like he'd watched him hit ballsand with kind of like giving him
the mark of approval andeverything and kind of the last
thing they were doing was theywere in the bunker and they were
hitting bunker shots Brooks andPete right and Pete was just
kind of standing there and allblack with his arms crossed, not
saying much, probably, as Iimagine it.

(39:20):
And Brooks is like hitting these.
What I'm told is like kind of ato mid-flight kind of zipper
out of the bunker.
The outcome is pretty good it'slanding where it should and
it's stopping by the time itshould and it's close to the
hole.
Pete is like hey, that's kindof awful.
Brooks is like what, what areyou talking about?

(39:40):
Man, I've just staked all ofthose.
Pete's like yeah, but like canyou like make it land and then
roll like a putt?
And brooks is like uh, sure,and he like I guess, tried to do
it once or twice and maybe itdidn't turn out so good.
And the story, as I'm told, isthat pete takes the wedge from

(40:01):
brooks which is like thecardinal sin of cardinal sins
with coaches, as you know liketakes the wedge from Brooks,
gets in the bunker, lands itlike eight feet short, it just
goes splat and then rolls endover end, it goes right in the
hole and I'm just like man, thatis like the coolest story ever

(40:25):
and I've seen Brooks hit thatshot like in real life person.
It's just like wild man Because,to your point, like being a
young man, like we, like thosehigh risk cool looking shots,
dude, and like I see so manylike division one college
players who you know can hitthat shot out of the bunker.
But when there's, like you know, the greens working away from
you and, like you know, you gotsome thin sand and a few other

(40:47):
things kind of working againstyou, it's like hey, yeah, place
like you're talking about, towhere, like hey, these are the
core ingredients and this iswhat we do, and like this is

(41:09):
what happens.
And then from there, like ifyou want to add a little more
spice one way or the other, wecan do that right.
But we have to have, like thiskind of functional baseline,
that where we can likedeconstruct it, present it in a
different way, but it stilltastes the way and works out the
way it's supposed to.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, and I and I would say like I mean obviously
players at the PGA tour level, Imean they, they can, they can
absolutely spin it becausethey've got speed Right.
Like some of my LPGA tourplayers, they they don't have
quite as much speed, but thenthe second that I start bringing
them some speed, boy, theirspin rates go up and they start

(41:47):
hitting those pitches that havea bunch of spin on it.
And I've done it with, I mean,I'll never forget, these two 20
handicap ladies at LA CountryClub.
I did a two days seminar thereand these ladies it was a three
hour seminar.
These ladies they played once aweek.
There were 20 handicaps and Itaught them the fundamentals of
it and they were hitting these20 to 25 yard pitches like

(42:11):
mid-flighted, which looked lowto their eyes but mid-flighted,
and these things were likelanding on the green and
grabbing.
And the tour pro the pro there,jake tolliver, who had me out,
he's like dude.
I cannot believe that you justgot these 20 handicap females to
be able to hit that shot.
I was like they once I taughtthem how to do it.
They were spinning it becausethey just they were starting to

(42:33):
deliver some speed.
I'll tell you a quick story.
Um, I caddied for my buddy,ricky Barnes, at the Sony open,
probably like seven, seven yearsago.
He Monday'd in and I'm fromHawaii and so I knew the golf
course.
I happen to be there.
I was like, yeah, I'll loop itfor you.
One of my best pals and he had arough first day.
He didn't hit his first fairwayto like the 15th hole and at

(42:55):
wailai there, like I mean, likeit goes this way and then it
goes that way, and so he wouldmiss the fairway and then the
run-up would be really small tothe green and so he hit into a
lot of the green side bunkersout of the rough.
And so we'd get in the greenside bunker and I'd put the, you
know, and I like I don't caddymuch, right, but I'd put the bag
down and I'd grab his 59, 60degree, right, I'd grab it right

(43:16):
out of the bag.
Cardinal sin, right, you'relike like I that too.
But I grabbed it out of the bagand I handed it to him.
He's like no, no, no, I want my51.
And I was like I'm sorry, whatI was like just over the bunker.
He's like I'm gonna land it ayard onto the green and I want
it to like run out like a putt.
And I was like, all right, Idid not see that shot.

(43:39):
So, anyway, to hit it, thisthing would lip out two feet get
to the next one.
Well, I put the thing down.
I grabbed the 59.
No, no, I want the 55.
He grabbed his 55 degree andhe'd land it three, four yards
on the green.
It would run like a putt and itwould lip out.
And I was like I'm like thisguy, I mean great hands, but at
the same time, like thephilosophy of it was not like

(44:02):
hey, I'm gonna try and max spin.
It got great lies.
It was like I mean, the lies ontour in the bunkers are so good
, right, but it wasn't like hewas going for maximum spin.
He was going for like, dude, Iwant the shot that I know that
it's gonna come out and it'sgonna run like a putt.
Similar thing can be can besort of inferred from on the on

(44:22):
some of these pitch shots.
It's like you don't always wantmaximum spin.
Maximum spin does not equalbetter wedge play.
You look at when the wedgeslike they sort of rolled back
the wedges.
Wedge play got better afterthey rolled back the wedges.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
In like 2009 or 2010.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Yeah, it got better Because guys didn't have the
grooves weren't as thick and aswide and, like you could, you
spun the ball less, but thewedge play dramatically got
better on the PGA Tour.
So it's like, and speaking ofwedge play, yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
One thing like you know, you don't get nearly
enough credit for my man andlike, look, I think Titleist is
a great company.
I and like I'm, look, I thinktitlist is a great company.
I'm not saying anythingnegative, but I do not think of
titlist when I think of change.
Right, like that's not how Igenerally view things.
So for you and I'm pretty sureit's you to be able to get them

(45:18):
to not only endorse, kind ofsome of your methodologies and
some of your ways of thinking,but to be able to actually get
them to start manufacturing andmaking it an option, I believe,
for everybody with the flightlines on the wedge holy crap,
man.
Like a tip of the cap to youbecause like I mean there's
there's been coaches come and golike and there's been great

(45:39):
ones that have had massiveimpact and there've been ones
that have not had impact butlike to see like an actual
technology change because ofsomething that you're doing, I
mean that has to be pretty.
I wanted to hit on that realquick because that has to be
pretty mega cool, man, and myhats off to Titleist to being
open and willing to even takethat meeting and talk about that

(46:00):
, because that is really got tobe mega helpful for a lot of
people, because we don't thehuman being seeing something the
same way twice, it's not alwayslike an easy task.
So like what you've done withthat man I think is incredible.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
Thank you, buddy.
Yeah, I appreciate that.
I think you know Titleist isone of those companies where
they're just like they've donethings so well for so long that
you know the change piece of it.
It's like there's not really aneed to change because they're
so good and they're soconsistent with everything that
they bring to the table.
So I was I was really gratefulto that bob bokeh, um and the

(46:36):
team there nicest human beingalive bob, he's the best, nicest
human being alive.
Yeah, bob and aaron dill andcory gerard, everybody there in
titles kevin to see like thewhole team.
there Was JP there when youfirst started he was not there
when I pitched the idea, okay,but yeah, I mean the whole team
there was like open to thethought and I was like, look,

(46:57):
this is going to give people anawareness as to shaft
positioning and club-basedpositioning at setup to hit a
high, a medium and a lowtrajectory shot.
And it's like I don't think thatpeople have the awareness,
especially amateur shaftpositioning wise to hit a mid
trajectory or a low trajectoryshot and they definitely don't

(47:19):
have the club face and shaftawareness to hit a bunker or
flop shop.
And so to give them thatawareness and to just have it as
like a just like, hey, it'sright there for you.
It's available to be used intournament play.
I've had it used on the PGATour, the Champions Tour and the
LPGA Tour in tournament play,so it's been really neat to see

(47:43):
it getting adopted.
I think that, going forward,they they just approved it to
get used uh, all the variety ofcolors.
So however you want to deck itout, like whatever color you
want to put on it, um, you cannow do that as of like a couple
months ago, and it's I wouldimagine they came up with bright
colors for you.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
Being mr hawaii, you wear some colorful shirts, my
man, thank you thank you.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
Thank you, I've I've started to tone that down a
little bit, just because I feellike the more tour players I'm
starting to work with it's likeyou know I realized it's not
about me, it's about them andI'm I'm in a support role.
Yeah, but do you?

Speaker 1 (48:18):
man, like that's cool Cause, it's like it pays homage
to where you're from.
Man, like you know, like I nooffense like and I'm not, mr
Fashion, trust me, I wear a lotof black, like my guy Pete.
But like dude, I'm telling youlike I like when I see you wear
that stuff.
I would never be caught dead inone of those shirts.
Like no offense to you, likethey're nice shirts just with a

(48:39):
bald head, red hair, like itdoesn't work quite as well, man.
So, but like I love the factwhen I see you wearing that,
because that, to me, shows methat you're proud of, like,
where you come from and you'retrying to have some fun and like
kind of honor, that kind ofHawaiian spirit man, and like
you definitely have thatHawaiian vibe and spirit man,
which I totally appreciate and Ilove that you lean into it.

(49:01):
Man, like you're not trying tobe anybody, you're not trying to
be like well, I'm actuallysuper technical Like dude, I
just love the fact that you'reyou.
So hang on real quick, becauseI want to ask you some questions
, okay.
Now, generally, I'm sure you doa lot of these podcasts and I
know that they just hammer yourquestions and that's no fun, but
we've had our fun, we've had anice chat, so I just want to try

(49:25):
to ask you.
I've got nine questions, okay,and I'm not saying that your
answers have to be limited, butI want you to try to use your
skill from PGA tour live and Iwant you to try to take a four
minute thought and put it into a22nd answer, all right?
So, here we go, you ready?
Question number one what do youbelieve to be the most

(49:46):
frequently misunderstood conceptregarding chipping and pitching
the golf ball regardless ofplayer ability?

Speaker 2 (49:55):
What's the most?

Speaker 1 (49:56):
misunderstood concept when it comes to chipping and
pitching the ball, regardless ofskill age.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
I would say ball contact.
I would say that that youthere's, there's, so you can hit
great shots, like, obviouslywe're always going for great
ball contact, right, but peopleget so caught up in chasing
great ball contact, great ballcompression from inside of 20

(50:30):
yards, 30 yards, and it's like,buddy, I would much rather you
drop, kick it and hit it toeside and get this ball to come
out soft than I would youfeeling like, oh, I really need
to feel that compression.
I don't think that thatcompression is the proper thing
to sort of search for inside of20 yards.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Okay, beautiful.
Is there a?
Now, this one's a little bitdifferent for you, probably, but
like I know you, you can answerthis question.
Is there a metric not relatedto the outcome of the shot that
you feel is more important thanothers when it comes to chipping
and pitching the golf ball?
So is there a metric other thanjust pure outcome that you

(51:14):
think is super important, or doyou think it's purely where the
ball winds up relative to thehole?

Speaker 2 (51:23):
man, yeah, I think that's again.
That's probably you know, likeI.
I there's so many differentways of doing it.
If I, if I told you like, hey,my, my metric is is is clubhead
speed, or my metric is attackangle, or my metric is land
angle, I just don't.
There's so many other factorsthat can go into that that you
could be like well, I'm hittingyour attack angle numbers but

(51:45):
I'm not getting the results.
So it's like or I'm hitting,I'm hitting the land angle
numbers, but I have no spin onit I would have guessed you
would have said like ball speed,yeah yeah, I mean the reason I
say that is because that's thatnobody looks at that number when
it comes to like chipping andpitching.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
And that hot shot you're talking about is
legitimately five, six miles anhour faster than the one we're
probably looking for and like Idon't think that people ever
actually like the only timepeople talk about ball speeds
off a drive like you never hearpeople really talk about that
around the greens.
So I was kind of curious if youwent that route or not.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
But yeah, I didn't take the bait, no, and you know,
I mean I, I, I uh, your answeris good, I like no, yeah, okay,
no, I.
I just think again I I'm I'mabout playing the right shot to
like, because it could betotally, it could be totally
different, right, like, if I'mhitting it to a back pin or I'm

(52:44):
hitting it to a front pin, it'sa good answer.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
next shot, next shot all right, here we go.
It's gotta be, it's gotta beit's gotta be the like.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
It's gotta be, like that trajectory matched up to
that back flag or thattrajectory matched up to that
front flag and like, right, youmatch up really quickly.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
I would say I really demand players, especially the
younger and less experiencedthey have.
I really want them to walk upto where they want the ball to
land and then walk back.
And I don't care if they usethat pace number when they're
doing.
I just want them to know, likeI just want there to be a number
associated with a field andwhat they see, and like I call

(53:22):
it building a shot.
And my big thing is like we'regonna build this shot before we
hit it, you're gonna tell me howit's gonna look, you're gonna
tell me where it's gonna land,you're gonna tell me what it
does and like then we're gonnahit the shot and then we're
gonna go to the monitor and seethe instant replay and did that
shot look the way we thought itshould have looked right?

Speaker 2 (53:40):
and I think that's kind of what you're saying dude,
that's.
That's way more important thanany like number, you may get
that's way more important.
And did that?
Did that ball come out the wayyou wanted it to?
Did it land on the spot thatyou said it was going to land on
and did it have the appropriatespin, whether it was minimal
spin to a back pin or whether itwas more spin to a front pin?

(54:00):
Did it, did the?
Did all those things match up?
That?
That, that's the way that Iwould, you know, grade a grade,
a shot, that would be the thingI would look for the most yep
all right.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
So here you go.
Here's a fun one for you.
Okay, if you could change everygolfer's concept when it comes
to chipping and pitching theball?
okay, so this is like you haveto have a silver bullet what
would be the concept you wouldmost like to change that you
think would do the most amountof good for the most golfers.
So if you could change oneconcept and you said that you

(54:33):
thought the most misunderstoodone was like a contact point
right or compression right, soyou said that that's the most
misunderstood.
But what would be the one youwould want to change the most
when it comes to chipping andpitching that you think would do
the most good?
Maybe it's that one.
It might be the same answer.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
Yeah, potentially, but does it have to be a metric
or can it be like a?

Speaker 1 (54:56):
body movement, it can be whatever.
It's just a concept.
So we're not talking we're nottelling somebody what to do.
We're just explaining a conceptthat everybody should be doing.
That's important.
That maybe isn't understood ormaybe is misunderstood.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
Yeah, I mean, I would say, I would say on the amateur
side for sure, which I thinkwe're talking to, 99% of the
people that are probably playinggolf and listening to this yeah
.
So so what I, what I would sayis that you know it's gonna be,
um, it's gonna be the amount ofof body movement.
I think that that's the mostmisunderstood thing.

(55:32):
I think that people see theyequate short shot, short
movement I agree, and so they go, they just go like this and
they don't move and then they dothis and it's like it becomes.
It's a, it's a complete disaster, because there's no like.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
There's no like um rhythm or feel or anything.
Rhythm or?

Speaker 2 (55:50):
feel or anything, and you're using these small
muscles and it becomes veryhitchy, um.
So I w, I would say um.
I would say, on learning how topivot properly would be, in my
book, one of the most importantthings if you're going to learn
how to chip and pitch better,and potentially the most
misunderstood things, because Ijust think that there's people

(56:12):
are focusing on on things thataren't necessarily like.
That aren't like if you'refocusing on vertical swing plane
or attack angle or a spin rateor whatever it might be, launch
angle, any of that, that stuffyou're not necessarily even
thinking about how the body issupposed to move right, right,
you're.
It's like you got to learn.

(56:35):
You got to learn how to pivotthis thing first, like that's
the body moves the club.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
The club doesn't move itself yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
So I mean yeah, and then it's like, yeah, then we're
gonna, we're obviously gonnabuild in some hands and like how
to educate the hands to play.
But there's gotta be anunderstanding, especially at the
amateur level, of how you useyour body.
And I even see, I even see tourplayers um like again like I'll
go back to that like KevinDoherty, um, like I think,
victor was that way.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
I think Victor was really handsy, armsy kind of guy
and then he's got more pivotinto it since he started working
with Joe on it.
I think Victor would be a greatexample of that and I think
that's why you're seeing he'sdoing so much better, because
he's just got way more room tokind of work with when it comes
to hitting the ball, versus kindof being on that razor's edge
where he has to time that shitup perfect every time edge where
he has to time that shit up,perfect every time, yeah, yeah,

(57:24):
and I and I don't.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
I don't ever.
I don't necessarily hear Joetalking about the pivot, but
maybe that's something that thatthey are working on, um, but I
think that's real quick becausethis is gold.

Speaker 1 (57:37):
I got to get to this and I know I'm real close.
So I want to get good, becausewe definitely should have talked
more about this, because Ithink it's the real unsung hero
of good shipping and pitchingabout this, because I think it's
the real unsung hero of goodshipping and pitching.
So here you go, you ready.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
In your opinion, what percentage of professional
golfers read lies well now wehaven't even talked about that
and that's like I know I wish wewould have.
That's like a.
I mean, you know I was whatpercentage let's?

Speaker 1 (58:04):
just get through these questions real quick and
I'll let you go on it From.
You've worked with 25.
So let's just talk about whatyou know.
Let's not make any assumptions.
So, out of the 25 you've workedwith, what percentage of those
guys read a lot Well, would yousay?

Speaker 2 (58:21):
well, I'll preface that by saying that if they're
coming to me, they're.
They're not necessarily doingit very well, they're not,
they're not their motion isn'tvery good it's been.
It's been a struggle on their,on their side, um so I I would
say uh, 30 percent do you thinkthat percentage changes across
the rest of the tour?

Speaker 1 (58:43):
yeah higher or lower?

Speaker 2 (58:44):
it's.
I think it's higher.
I think the guys that arestruggling, the guys that are
wanting to work on it, they knowthat their motion is not quite
great.
They're usually great ballstrikers.
They've been great ballstrikers so, in essence, they've
been great ball strikers theirwhole life.
So they've hit 17, 16, 17greens their entire life.

(59:05):
So they just haven't had asmany reps as someone like myself
who who hit 50% of those greensthis whole career, right?
So like I've had way morepractice under extreme
situations and extremecircumstances than these other
guys that have missed one greenaround or two greens around for
their whole career.
So I would say, you know,they're just sort of playing

(59:26):
catch up and I'm able to givethem like, hey, in this lie,
this is what you should expect,and be like I never would have
thought of that, right.
So you know and then a solutionto escape that lie.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
I think that it really it's a shame that people
don't understand that if youplay a golf course it's soppy,
wet, like I did yesterdaymorning after a big storm is.
It's actually very similar toplaying in Bermuda conditions
and you have to understand howthe grass is actually growing
pattern wise and like Bermuda,like it doesn't grab.

(01:00:01):
The problem is is that Bermudagrass sprawls across the top and
has different connection pointsso it literally you can hit
here and like the ground fourfeet away is moving right
Because it's like pulling on it,so like you have to sever that
root and like where the ball isif you don't want it to like
quote, unquote grab the golfclub and like same thing when

(01:00:27):
it's soppy, like you got to getdown.
Unquote, grab the golf club andlike same thing when it's soppy
, like you gotta get down andget the club on the ball because
nothing there is wanting toresist that right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
So I think it's just really and it becomes.
And it becomes tricky if youhave to go up with it, yeah
right, if you, if you've got togo, if you've got to, if you're
down in a low and you've got togo up six, six, seven, eight
feet to an elevated green andyou've got to pin, you know,
let's say, three, four, five,six paces on Right Dude, that

(01:00:52):
just becomes a really difficultshot that you have to like this
at some point, like going downis going to equal coming out
faster.
So you got to, you got to makea variety of sort of
compensations to make it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
I think you hit the nail on the head.
You can move pressure leftwithout moving attack angle down
, so like there's ways to do itwithout necessarily just using
the methods that we've used inthe past.
So very quickly.
We said 30% of professionalsrealize well that Parker's
worked with personally.
What do you think the numberwould be across amateurs?

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
Like 1%.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
Yeah, I think so too.
Now yes or no this is a realtough one for you.
Yes or no?
How much, I'm sorry.
In your opinion, can a golferapply the same technique to
every chip and pitch and becomea good chipper and pitcher of
the ball?
So every single chip and pitchshot they hit the rest of their

(01:01:51):
life they're going to do it theexact same technique.
Will they ever become a goodchipper and pitcher of the ball?

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
I think that they, they would be, they would be
limited I think so too right,but I think that's where you see
more people trying to go.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Yeah, it's like X equals Y, x equals Y, x equals Y
.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
Yeah, and it's like I've I've had this conversation
with a lot of, like you know,other tour coaches, other like I
was having this conversationwith Gabriel Yurtz that the
other day, and it was like youknow, we were talking about some
of the some of the friction inthis, in this sort of space, and

(01:02:33):
it's like what gets forgottenabout is that the lie dictates
what type of shot you're goingto hit.
Number one it's the lie.
Number two is like okay, what'sin front of you?
Do you have a bunker in frontof you or going to a back pin, a
front pin?
Are the greens soft?

(01:02:59):
Are they firm?
Do you need more spin?
Is it into the wind downwind?
There's so many options thatit's not always X equals Y, and
that's where I get my mostamount of frustration is there
are a million shots around thegreens and with different
trajectories, different spinrates, different carry numbers,
different rollout numbers, plus,again, players, eyes.
Some players like to see it low, other players like to see it
high.
It's all those different thingssort of blended into like, ok,
now I'm trying to take all thesesort of factors and bring it

(01:03:21):
into how am I going to executethis shot?
What's going to give me thehighest margin of success for
this shot.
What am I most comfortable withfor this shot?
And so I would say, if you'rejust let's say you're just a guy
, that's like, all right, I'monly going to be three degrees
angle of attack down for therest of my life, you're going to
be limited in hitting someshots.

(01:03:41):
If you're only a guy, that'sI'm going to be 12 or 15 degrees
down, you're going to belimited in hitting some shots.
So it's like you just can't,you can't necessarily be like
it's a box and again, thatthat's that's always been my
like.
Biggest frustration is like tellthe whole story.
There's an entire story to betold about short game.

(01:04:01):
It's not just specificallylaunch angle, attack, angle,
spin rate.
That's not it.
Because if I'm solely launchingit, sub 30 on every shot around
the green, that's not what PGATour players are doing.
That's not true.
Some Tour players launch a30-yard shot and they'll hit it

(01:04:21):
at 28.
And then other ones feel waymore comfortable or feel like
they want to stop it quicker andthey'll launch it at 34.
And I've seen guys on 15 yardshots they're launching it at 42
, 44, like to hit a higher onewith some spin.
So it's like they're like don't,it can't just be here, right,

(01:04:42):
it has to be like this wholeencompassing thing of can't just
be here right, it has to belike this whole encompassing
thing of again you could hit the28 launch shot and the 32 and
the 34 and the 44, like you'vegot to be able to understand
what recipe goes with each Ijust think that golf has an
incredible amount of variety toit.

Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
It's like my favorite thing todo with young people especially
is like hey, we use an appcalled Clipped and it gives us a
player quality and then we'reable to look at this total
number and then we can look atdriving, approach around the
green and putting and how eachone of those buckets feeds this
overall number and like howwe're going to develop and get
better as a player.

(01:05:20):
Right, because it's not alwayshitting it farther, it's not
always hitting it straighter,it's not always putting and
making more putts.
It's there, there's a lot oflike ebbs and flows to it, but
the skills required for drivingare not the same skills required
for pitching and shipping arenot the same skills required for
putting.
So at the end of the day, like Iget kind of nuts because, yes,

(01:05:40):
we want to create this patternto where we do more or less the
same thing every time and wewant to kind of get all the
variability out of it so thatthis consistency happens, that
everybody's chasing, which justmeans that everybody wants to
get close to the hole.
They don't really care how itgets there.
They don't want to beconsistent.
They want the ball to go closeto the hole, but, like they all
want to do, x equals Y and everyequation.

(01:06:03):
And it's just not that way withgolf.
Because we, unless you're,playing the exact same golf
course every single day and theyset the pins for you the exact
same way every day and, like you, only play it on days where
it's 75 and sunny, like it's notgoing to be that way.
It just it doesn't work that wayyep agreed well, bud, I, uh, I

(01:06:23):
gotta say, man, this has been anabsolute treat you got are you
have other questions?

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
I want to make sure we get through them all I?

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
I do have.
I have two more, but I'm savingthese.
So what?
These are your tests, okay, soI have two questions where I'm
really gonna put you in the hotseat and I'm to see if you can
do what you say you can do.
So I have to imagine that Itravel a good amount.
You travel more than me, but,with that being said, you

(01:06:51):
probably run across guys in theairport.
So here's what we're going todo.
You are desperate.
You just got off a flight toTokyo and you haven't been able
to pee the whole time because itwas out of order and you really
got to pee.
So you're going to answer thisguy that comes up to you and
shows you a video and tells youhe's a 15 handicap, living in
South Florida, and he playstwice a week and doesn't

(01:07:12):
practice very much.
That's your guy, okay.
And he says something like thishey man, the bunkers are really
soft where I'm at.
You got a tip for me.
What do I do?
I can't get out.
So I want you to give me yourbest.
Parker.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
Having to take a P-Row bad at an airport 20
seconds can't get out of softbunkers, let it rip Lower loft,
go down in loft, and then Iwould put five to 10% more
weight on his trail foot atsetup.

Speaker 1 (01:07:42):
Beautiful.
Okay, that's great.
Now we got some soft ones likethat.
Now we also got some real firmbaked out ones that haven't been
redone.
So what do I do on those reallybaked out hard bunkers?

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
20 seconds go.
Yeah.
So I would say I would say Iwant you to get closer to the
ball.
I don't want to.
I don't want you to stand quiteas far away.
I get closer to the ball.
I want you to get that thingstraight up, like hinge it
straight up and go vertical withit, because your only job is to
get underneath.
Like you know that there's sometype of sand or soil or

(01:08:14):
whatever it is underneath that.
It's just firmly packed.
You know you got to get accessto that underneath it.
So you got to build thesteepest angle of attack so you
can get underneath that golfball, to that underneath it.
So you've got to build thesteepest angle of attack so you
can get underneath that golfball.
Okay, so closest you've everbeen to the golf ball, hinge it
straight up and then, on the waythrough, what I want you to
feel is I want you to feel thatpressure going down into the

(01:08:35):
heel, pressure going down intothe heel as you're coming
through, impact, and those wouldbe the three things, and then
the follow through is going tobe like minimally short because
you're building such a steepangle of attack down.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
Yeah, you're kind of trying to thwack it into the
ground, right?

Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
Yep.
Your follow through is going tobe like this far.
Yeah, if you do it right.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
Not but dude Not that .
Oh, come on, man, you don't wantenough here.
If you want to blade it, yeahfor sure.
If you want to bounce into itand blade it.
I feel bad because I feel likewe could have done the whole
episode, just like reading liesand how that could really help
everybody's short game, like Ihave it here, but we got into
such good other stuff that wedidn't quite get to it as much.

(01:09:18):
And not only that, but itprobably would have put some
people to sleep if we startedtalking about different types of
grass and how that affectsthings.
So I really appreciate it.
Man, like dude, you you'redoing awesome stuff.
Man, like it's it's really beenfrom more of a business side of
the of the conversation.
Like you know, being a youngcoach and you know I I've
followed you guys, man on, onall sincerity, like I look at

(01:09:41):
what you do and I look at a lotof different coaches and maybe I
don't agree with what theycoach or how they go about it,
but there's definitely like apassion and a originality to
what you bring to a otherwisepretty vanilla industry and I
really appreciate what you do.
I appreciate your message.
I've never seen you say anythingnegative about anybody.

(01:10:01):
I mean, I think the industrytries to make you be that way
sometimes with certain people.
But in all honesty, man, like Isaid, I think both of you are
doing the Lord's work, becauseif we can get people excited and
talking about short game likewe could actually get people
better at golf.
But unfortunately, you know, alot of the noise goes to hitting

(01:10:22):
bombs and doing all that.
And's what people lend theirtime to.
You're offering, in my opinion,usable solutions.
It's not this thing to whereyou log in and, oh my God, I
suck.
Here's another video of Tigerdoing it.
I can't do that.
It's just it's very refreshingto see somebody like actually

(01:10:44):
try to help people.
And I don't know and I'm nottalking ill of anybody, but like
I don't know how much ourindustry actually cares about
helping Sometimes you know Imean my.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
My mission statement has always been like I want to
help people get better, Likethat.
That's the absolute missionstatement.
And I tell all my tour playersI'm like here's the absolute
mission statement.
And I tell all my tour playersI'm like here's the deal.
I'm not.
This is, this is not going to belike me with you for the next
five years yeah, this is goingto be like I'm going to give you
this info, we're going to workour asses off on it, you're

(01:11:18):
going to own it, you're going toso that when you're choking
your guts out on Sunday, youdon't need me, and I firmly
believe that, like in six, eightmonths, a year, two years,
whatever it is like these, theyshouldn't need me.
It should be.
It should be one of thosethings where it's like we check
in once a quarter, once twice ayear, once a year, like not much

(01:11:43):
, but just check in to make surethings haven't gotten too far
off.
I think that it's a terriblebusiness model, but it I feel
like it's the right thing to doas a coach, like I want my
players to own it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
I want my players to own it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:58):
They have to own it.
Is it right Like do you want todo?

Speaker 1 (01:12:00):
right Do you want to be right.
You know what I mean and it'sthere's like a huge difference
there and what you're talking.
I mean I'm the same way, man.
It is a terrible business modelbecause I'm a consultant and I
tell everybody like, look, I'm aplumber, right, and when shit
hits the ceiling, you know likeyou really need that plumber and
you're willing to pay to getthat plumber there before your

(01:12:21):
dinner guests arrive.
So like I'm an expensiveplumber because I'm really good
at fixing that problem.
However, when I leave, you'renot going to see an invoice
coming from me every month, youknow, attached to the like.
I don't work that way Because,to your point, like my job is to
come in and assess and tofigure out what's going on and
then from there it's like here'sthe plan of attack and now it's

(01:12:44):
your job and the physios joband everybody on the team's job
to kind of recognize this iswhat we're doing and we're going
to check in in three months andsee how we did Because, like,
change takes time and like, whenyou're dealing not so much with
amateurs, can make change, Ithink, much quicker than pros,
because pros are way moredefensive, because they're very
good at what they do and theyshould be defensive of it.

(01:13:05):
So I think it's much easier toget a guy that can't do
something a way to do something.
He'll do it every time becausethe other way just doesn't work.
As to a tour pro, you knowthere's a lot of like back and
forth, there's a lot of, youknow, trying it out a lot before
they're really, really willingto try it on the course.
So I just feel like my job is tonot be on the clock, so to

(01:13:26):
speak, to where they feel likewe got to work.
We got to work, we got to work.
Like no man, like this is whatwe're doing.
It's going to take time andthis is what we're looking for.
So here's what we're doing.
Whatever metrics you use,whatever feels, whatever video,
whatever it is, this is whatwe're doing and it just takes
time, man.
And to your point, like at somepoint we should move past, like

(01:13:48):
needing one another, like okay,we fixed those problems, we're
looking pretty good.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
You're happy with how things are working.
I'll see you until next time.
Yep, yep, yeah, and that's whyyou know, that's why I built
that online platform.
It's sort of like look man,like if you want my information,
go go there and like, dive deepinto that and stay, stay as
shorter as long as you want.
Um, but you know, for for my,the people that come and see me
in person, it's like I tell themI'm like you should not be

(01:14:18):
seeing me once a week.
This is not a like, hey, I'llbook you for the next week.
It's like no, no, no, no, no.
Like we should fix this now.
You know some people that havedealt with chipping gifts for
years and years and years.
It's going to take some time,it's going to take some work,
but if you're just like, hey, Ijust need to sharpen up the
tools, it should be one time Ishouldn't have to see you for
six months.

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):
Here I had a guy.
I met him at the airport.
Shockingly enough, right Metthis guy at the airport and he
comes up to me and he's like hey, man, I'll pay you how much
ever money you want if you canfix my chipping yips.
And I was like really?
And he's like yeah.
And I was like, well, how much?
And he's like quite a bit.
So I was like, all right.
Well, I was like how about thisthis?
How about I tell you what Ithink you should do?
Now you go home and try it andif it works you can look me up

(01:15:08):
and send me a message and youcan then loan me some money.
And he's like all right, cool.
He's like what should I do?
And I said lock out your legs.
And he goes what?
And I said lock out your legswhen you chip.
And he's like are you beingserious?
And I was like I'm being deadserious.
I was like once you get good atthat, then you can unlock your
legs a little bit.
So anyway, I heard back from aguy like a month later.
He sent me a couple hundredbucks and he says he's never
been so good at chipping in hislife.

(01:15:29):
And like the funny thing was isI can never fix the yips until
I had a set of plates.
And then once I saw somebodyyip one on the plates, like I
figured it out.
Like anytime somebody is yippingand if it's a I shouldn't say,
because there's different waysto do it.
There's different ways, yeahright, but the most typical one
yeah, the most typical one isoff the hosel, like that's the

(01:15:52):
yip.
That really gets a lot of theguys.
I don't see nearly as many toeyips as I do heel yips and
generally what happens is isthat as they go to move the club
, instead of lowering the club,they lower their body.
And then obviously it doesn'tline up very well and then they
have to do some crazy stuff andit typically involves like
shoving the hosel right into theball.

(01:16:13):
So like the funny thing withlike Yip guys is, you know,
honestly, you can get them tolock out their legs and like at
least the super symptomaticproblems kind of go away and now
they're at least to a pointwhere they can make contact and
kind of learn how to makeemotion.
But like it's, it's just funnyhow you know something that for

(01:16:34):
so long has plagued so manypeople like has such a simple
solution when you actuallyunderstand what's going on.
Yeah, you know what I mean,that's what makes golf fun, man?

(01:17:03):
no-transcript, something for him, and that's really what it's
all about, in my opinion tryingto share the information and try
to help people actually playbetter golf absolutely million
percent thank you, this has been.
I got all my questions answeredI'm ready to out.

(01:17:23):
I've got all the recipes I need.
Like dude, I seriously I can'trecommend shortgamechefcom
enough.
I think it's really a well donewebsite.
Like I've built my own and doneall that and I take a lot of
pride in my websites, but yoursis super nice, man.
So, like, what you do is verywell done, it's very
professional and it's definitelysomething if you're a young

(01:17:45):
coach listening to this, it'ssomething to kind of take a look
at, definitely a way to educateyourself and also kind of shows
you what can be done when, like, hey, you put your vision to
work and I think that's whatyou've done, right Is?
You know?
I want to be out here, I wantto be part of this, and how do I
contribute?
And you found your lane andyou're sticking to it.
And, dude, you're doing it withsome style.
So my hat's off to you.

(01:18:05):
Thanks, michael, I appreciateit.
Buddy, yeah, man.
So if you didn't pick that up,go to shortgamechefcom.
Well worth the money, wellworth the time.
If you want some help with yourshort game, can't recommend it
enough.
We also talked about theTitleist flight lines.
You can go to Titleistcom.
You can check out the Vokeywedges that now apparently all

(01:18:27):
finishes, now have thecustomizable flight lines.
So if you're not a black, redand white kind of guy and like a
little more neon, they can hookyou up with some of that.
So super cool stuff Parker'sinvolved with.
Can't thank him enough for thetime.
Please make sure to check himout and if you haven't done so
already, please subscribe tothis podcast, make sure to
download it, and if you have anyquestions, comments, please

(01:18:49):
leave them below and we'll makesure to get to them as soon as
possible.
So thanks so much and untilnext time, keep grinding.

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