Unlocking Great Golf Course Design: Insights with Mike DeVries

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Measured
Golf Podcast.
It's a new season with newguests and we are taking a
slightly different approach onthis episode and getting a
little bit outside the world ofgolf equipment, instruction and
maybe how we think about playingthe game.
But in the spirit of how weplay the game, we've got
somebody on here to maybe helpus better understand what the

(00:26):
task is.
Mike DeVries, Michigan man thepride of Michigan, I think
actually has decided to join uson the podcast and help the

(00:54):
layman understand what makes agreat hole of golf other than
what score you made on it.
So, without further ado, we'revery, very fortunate to have
Mike DeVries.
Mike, how are you doing thismorning?
Great to see you, buddy.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Great yeah, thanks for having me look forward to
this.
Um, it's always always fun tolearn about, uh, another area of
the golf industry or to impartknowledge, and, um, that's
always a good day learningsomething new yeah, well, I
think you uh, you gave me a goodsegue there without trying but
impart knowledge.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
I think that that is something that our industry
sometimes misses just a littlebit, and we were talking just
before.
We actually have tried this acouple of times so far and we've
had some Internet issues, butduring the Internet issues and
swearing, we actually kind oftalked a little bit.
Wearing, we actually kind oftalked a little bit.
And something that I think isreally cool, mike, about

(01:54):
yourself, is the story that youreally I can't find anything
about you that doesn't talkabout you growing up at Crystal
Downs and playing golf with yourgrandfather, and I think a lot
of people your age or my agecame to the game through our
grandfathers teaching us how totake our hats off and repair
ball marks and rake bunkers andlike there was knowledge that
was passed on, and I think a lotof that knowledge is probably

(02:14):
not being transferred the way itused to be, due to so many
people learning from YouTube howto play golf, which is a
different experience not wrongor just different.
But what I think is crazyinteresting is I don't think
anybody really has ever passedon this information in terms of
golf courses and what makes agreat golf course to the masses.

(02:34):
It's always been kind of a hushhush secret and I'm very
interested to hear you kind ofmaybe expound upon a little bit
of one level like what why don'twe play golf in a cow pasture?
right like there's a lot of landavailable there.
Like, why don't you?
Like, if somebody was to askyou that question from mars mike
, why don't we just play golf incow pastures?

(02:54):
What would be your answer?
There's too many patties in theway.
Oh, that's true, right, butit'd be boring, right, like
nobody would come right but it'dbe, it, wouldn't?

Speaker 2 (03:07):
you know that?
I think the key thing is tothink about um, sometimes it's
not only like, okay, this is howyou're supposed to play the
golf hole, but I I talk about itin the way that I I call it
reactionary architecture, wherewe're reacting to what the site
gives us and every site'sdifferent.
You know, it's not, this is nota tennis court, it's not.

(03:27):
It's not x by x, flat, with athree-foot net, and you know,
you hit a ball over and you gotfencing around it's.
It's not the same every time.
So all those properties arereally really different.
From a mountain course to alinks course.
Um, you think about st andrews.
It's basically flat, but it'sreally being up and down here

(03:50):
and there and when you have aflat piece of ground and you
have a little bit of movement,you know, one foot or a foot and
a half, two feet, that seemslike a lot.
That feels like a lot.
You got a big mountainouscourse and you move two feet, it
looks flat.
So there's a big variety thereand you have to adapt things to

(04:13):
the golf course to try andcreate something interesting.
And the key thing for me is thatwe want to find ways to engage
golfers, because not everygolfer is the same either.
Right, your site's not the same, your player's not the same,
they're not doing exactly thesame thing.
And so and as good as you know,the best players are, they try

(04:35):
and do a particular shot to getto a particular position, to
have the best shot to, you know,get closer to the pin, etc.
But how many times do weactually execute that shot just
perfectly to get to where wewant?
And so, whatever error we haveon that shot, now we have to
adjust and then figure out, well, what's what's my best

(04:58):
opportunity for the next one?
So we have to, we think aboutthat like.
The golfer has to adjust and weneed to find a way to make them
engaged.
So if they miss their target andthey land in a bunker or
something, is that bunkerengaging?
Or does it say, hey, I have avery, very small chance of
hitting the green, or it's likeI have no chance, just get it

(05:19):
out, you know?
And then what's the ego of thegolfer?
Are they like, oh, no, I can dothis.
Yeah, no problem, you know,three, three shots later in the
bunker, they're like screamingat themselves and, you know,
dropping four bombs andeverything.
So I think you know that's thething that's cool about it is

(05:39):
how can you make golfcontinuously interesting?
How do you make it wheresomeone is trying to find the
solution but that solution'sindividual for them?
And, um, it happens a lot oftimes when we go to like an
existing course and and you're,you know, I, there's a lot of
times I've been to a place,never been to the golf course

(06:01):
before.
I'll walk the golf course inthe morning, usually like with
the superintendent, because theyknow everything that's kind of
going on on the golf course justfrom a.
Um, you know anatomy basis.
Yeah, and like you know, hey,there's piping here, there's
just that here, stuff like that,and they they get, um, you know
, they have the opportunity totell me things that you know,

(06:24):
give me answers about certainquestions, and then we'll go
into a meeting at noon and someI'll say something about the
left side of the seventh hole orthe right side of the 15 or,
and there's invariably someonewho's been there their entire
life and they'll be like whatare you talking about?
Because they're not looking atwhat I'm looking at.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
You know, right, and that bunker or feature or
whatever maybe doesn't apply tothem, or very infrequently,
right but so that's reallyinteresting though, because,
like you kind of have beendancing around it, right, but
it's you're trying to makesomething that's challenging for
somebody who's a skilled golferRight and an interesting right

(07:08):
Engaging, like.
If it's not engaging, like agood player gets bored pretty
quick, like it doesn't matterthe golf course, so it's got to
be able to be played indifferent ways.
It's got to be engaging, it'sgot to be challenging.
But then if Mrs Haverkamp comesout to play golf you know what
I mean.
If Mrs Haverkamp comes out toplay golf, you know what I mean.
Like she's got to still be ableto get it around the golf
course in a way that works forher but isn't so hard to, where

(07:31):
she never wants to play golfagain.
So I mean it's it's kind of aninteresting challenge, I think,
for the architect to create thatbecause, like you said also,
you know that's easy to do in aCAD program.
Like you can just make randomholes all day long that are fun
and interesting and exciting.
But if you take that CADrendering out to a site and the

(07:52):
site it doesn't fit, you knowthat's not going to work most of
the time.
The only time I think somethinglike that maybe that I'm aware
of anyway has happened is maybelike a whistling straights to
where it seems like that thingwas just dead as a, as a
doorknob, flat right, and theyjust said, hey, this is what we
want and they built it.
So I mean like it's kind yeah,that's well.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
It's interesting to bring that up because, um,
because you know that was one ofPete Dye's, you know great
works and stuff and they've heldall these championships and you
know it's a very successfulresort and all that.
And there there's, you know,this whistling strays Irish
course and then the two coursesthat black wolf run, um, that
are all really part of the same.
They're not immediately next toeach other but they're very
close in proximity.

(08:36):
So you know it's it's a fourcourse um resort really
essentially, and um Pete resortreally essentially.
And um Pete, you know he, hewas the master of, you know,
being on site and doing stuffand waving his arms and changing
things.
So he had a concept.
But then he's like we need moredirt, just keep bringing the
trucks, I'll tell you when tostop.

(08:57):
So so um he, yeah, he, you knowthat's um.
I never worked for pete and Ionly met him.
You know, briefly, um didn'treally spend time with him or
learn about what he did, but youknow he was on equipment.
He was out there with boots onthe ground every day.
He wasn't, you know, behind thedesk just drawing something.

(09:18):
Um, it was more about buildingit in the field and that's what
um it in the field and that'swhat um bill coore, tom doke,
bobby weed those guys learnedand they've passed that on.

Speaker 1 (09:32):
You know I worked with with tom doke 35 years ago,
so um, you know that sort ofemphasis on building it in the
field and adjusting things,because even really good topo
maps, there's stuff in the inbetween those that you just
don't quite see the thing that'sthat's crazy, right, and like
this is like maybe whistling isa good example, right, because I
would say that's like extremearchitecture of a golf course,

(09:54):
right, yeah, so like I think thething that's so interesting is
we were there for the rider cop,uh, and I've I mean I literally
walked my butt off, man.
I mean you know how that placeis.
It's, it's up and down, there'snot a flat spot on it, and like
you get to where you're, Idon't know, 45, 50 yards away
from the green.
You're nowhere near whereanybody's ever going to play

(10:16):
golf, right.
Like I mean Mrs Haverkamp mightfind that place every now and
then, but I mean like you'relegitimately not going to find
that spot on the golf course andthere's like all of this
intricate like spider web,bunkering kind of stuff, and it
doesn't look like anybody wouldhave done that intentionally,
but you know they did.
And like it's so cool how thereis just a very chaotic natural

(10:42):
nature made this feel about aplace that is more or less kind
of completely manufactured.
It's just it's mind-bogglingfor me that doesn't understand
the field nearly as well as youdo, to see things like that that
appear so natural and we knowthat they're actually man-made.
Like I really think it's a tipof the cap to how much better

(11:02):
the architecture is getting andit's so much less Mickey Mouse
now, I feel like andneighborhood like lot selling
driven and it's really gettingback into taking a piece of
property and trying to likeaccentuate it versus try to
create something net new thatkind of overtakes the actual
property, like it's really coolman.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
I think it's awesome property Like it's really cool,
man, I think it's awesome, yeah,yeah.
And there's certainly umdevelopment.
Real estate development hasdriven a lot of things for a
long time and, as in in certainsituations, um, golf's a
business and you got to figureout how to, you know, pay for
the shaping and and thegreenkeeping and all that sort

(11:42):
of stuff.
So it is sort of a two-edgedsword sometimes.
I grew up at Crystal Downs andit's one of the great places in
the world and that was the realestate development.
Walkley Ewing, the founder, gotinto development and he just
remembers when he was a kidwalking the eastern shore of

(12:04):
Lake Michigan with his brotherall along one summer.
They spent like three or fourweeks and they walked from
Muskegon all the way up toMackinac and he remembers these
two farms on this hill andoverlooking Crystal Lake and
Lake Michigan, where SleepingBear, sand Dunes and the Manitou
Islands are.
And you know he went back therein the mid-20s and it's like,

(12:27):
hmm, wow, this place would begreat, I could sell homes here.
And you think about the 16thhole.
It sits inland and then there'sa row of cottages that are on
the edge of the bluff.
Well, what if the golf hole hadbeen there?
How cool would that have been?
You know it's a great holealready, but it could have been

(12:47):
even cooler, right?
So, um, you know who knows?
I mean it's um, there, there'sa purpose for all of it and
every canvas is different.
So you know we're lucky, we getto, we get to play in the dirt
and see stuff evolve and, youknow, make things better.
And you know, hopefully, youknow, long past, you know our

(13:09):
time being here, there's goingto be other people enjoying it.
That's kind of a.
That's a really cool thing.

Speaker 1 (13:14):
Yeah, I think that's really.
That's what's cool, man, is.
You know, I think somethingthat's hard to do is to you know
, last pass, you know when youpass away, right, like how do
you have a legacy?
And I think what's really coolis we.
We were very fortunate we metat the 150th open, I believe, at

(13:35):
the cdp slash sounder party, ifI'm not mistaken.
Yeah, um, and luckily I I don'tknow what it is, I still think
this is true you and David arerelated, david, adele, like you
two are so comically likeAmericana.
It's unreal.
Like you guys just are exactlywhat you would think of.

(13:55):
It's just very, very weird.
But I remember talking to youand I just I've always had this
admiration for like this purityof whatever it is you do.
Like I don't care what you do,just I want you to try to be the
best at it that you can.
And like listening to you talkabout holes of golf and golf
course architecture and likethere's, there's always kind of

(14:18):
like this I don't feel like youjust go, well, I could build you
the coolest hole ever and showyou this amazing thing, and like
I'm not trying to disparage it,but I could give you shadow
Creek, like I could do that.
But I'd rather like takesomething that's there and tweak
it a little bit and get you tothink about it slightly
different and make it moreplayable and enjoyable and get
rid of all the crap in the waythat doesn't make any sense.

(14:40):
Like dude, that sounds to melike we're actually going back
to playing golf again, like Imean, I just it's gotten.
I've been very fortunate, beenable to travel a bit and played
more golf in the uk and honestlyI I think golf in the uk is
spectacular and sublime in somany ways, not just scotland.
I think scotland's great.
But then you go over to the ukwhere the addington is, which is

(15:02):
a project that you're part of,and I mean like that that's
totally different than Scotlandbut also very similar in ways
and it's just.
It's really interesting to mehow golf courses, when you play
these golf courses that kind of,are a little bit different and
not so tucked into aneighborhood and whatnot, that

(15:24):
there's like a feel of home,there's a feel of sustainability
, there's a feel of the spiritof the game, maybe call it what
you will, but like it's just,there's a very real golf
experience and I know that youget that at the Addington, I
know you get that at Kingsley,I'm sure you get that at Crystal
Dam.
It's just a different thing,man, and I think that what you

(15:46):
guys are trying to do at cdp isjust very interesting, because I
don't think you guys are tryingto make as many golf courses as
you can.
I think you're probably pickingand choosing projects where you
think you can make a difference, and that's just a lot
different way of doing it yeah,I think it's um.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
You know I, I mean, I've been in golf my whole life.
That's really all I've everdone and you know I've been um.
You know, starting from.
You know, just learning thegame from my grandparents and my
uncle and then working at, youknow, in the bag room for fred,
at crystal downs and then goingto the grounds crew and you know
, mowing greens and cutting cupsand raking bunkers and doing

(16:24):
all that kind of stuff and justevolving in the game and,
finishing college and trying tofigure out what I was going to
do, did something else andfigured out that wasn't my
mission, went back into golf andyou know, then met, then met
Tom Doak and um worked with himfor about two and a half plus
years and and um and we didn'thave another project and so it

(16:46):
it ultimately ended up where youknow.
I've, you know, learned from alot of different people in a lot
of different ways about golf,from learning the swing from
fred and working in the pro shopand how you know the pro shop
works and what that atmosphereis, and you know how do you
service people and how do you.
You know it's just, it's agreat thing about golf.

(17:08):
Industry doesn't do that.
It doesn't, it teaches usmanners and and the way to do
things properly and stuff likethat.
So if you're working in the bagroom or you're a caddy, it's
like hello, mr smith, nice tomeet, like nice to meet you.
And you know, you make a, youknow a firm handshake, you look
him in the eye, stuff like that.
You don't get that in a lot ofthings nowadays.

(17:29):
It's like where's my device?
How do I come you knowcommunity?
No, like communicate with someperson directly, one-on-one,
that's really good.
Um, so there's all these thingsthat that the industry does, um
, and then have you been toaugusta, mike?
uh, uh, I haven't played it, butI've been to a practice round,
you know, at the tournament andstuff like that.
Okay, perfect, perfect.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
So here's something I want to throw this at you.
I think people miss why Augustais so great.
And I'm not even, I'm not goingto get into the golf course,
I'm not even going to do that,right, okay.
But I think that people totallymiss why Augusta national is so
great.
I really do.
And here's what I think, and Idon't think I've said this

(18:11):
before and I'm excited toactually get to say this,
because I I think it's true andI haven't heard anybody else say
it.
You know the big sitting areasover by the merch tent, by the
range over underneath all thetrees where the telephones are
and everything.
It's a huge area, right.
When is that area not packed?
It's always packed.
There's always people sittingthere, right, there's always

(18:31):
people around all theconcessions sitting.
They make a nice, they do anice job of providing just
enough seating to eat yourpimento cheese and move on right
, so like.
There's never an abundance ofseating, but there's always a
seat when you need one.
However, you have to asksomebody to sit at the table,
because they're not all littletwo tops and four tops, they're
big tables, right, and that'ssomething that young people

(18:53):
don't do anymore.
You would never walk up to acrowded table and go hey, can we
sit and join you?
Very common in Europe, not socommon in the United States.
But then you sit down at atable with strangers and you
don't have a phone to make afake call with, you can't blow
people off and dude.
People hate silence like humanbeings.

(19:15):
Of all the things they can'thandle anymore is silence.
And like you start talking andlike that's the thing that makes
Augusta great, is like itforces you to be a human again
instead of trying to communicatethrough a phone all the time.
I mean it's the thing thatmakes Augusta great, is like it
forces you to be a human againinstead of trying to communicate
through a phone all the time.
I mean it's magic.
Like you feel so much betterwhen you leave Augusta, probably
because you feel like a humanbeing again, because you've been
talking to people.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, yeah, communication it's an amazing
thing, right, like you can'tavoid that person.
And it's like when you sit downin the plane and you're next to
somebody, how's your day going?
It might just be super brief,you know, and sometimes you sit
there and you talk to the personfor a half an hour, like you
know it.
Just you don't know.
I mean, you're put intosituations where you have to be

(19:58):
a human again and that's areally good, yeah.
And the thing that Augusta yeah, my brother was my brother, was
my brother's, not a golfer, andand he had a friend that was
going down to Augusta this islike 20 years ago and he calls
me up.
He goes, chuck's asked me to godown, you know, and I'm like
what are you talking about?
He goes the masters, you know,but it's, it's golf, it's your

(20:19):
thing, and I'm like we'll go.
You're going to, you know, likethe best run event in the world
.
It is not just golf.
No, I go, you can't have yourphone.
He's like I can't have my phone.
What do you mean?
I can't have my phone.
I'm like can't have a phone onsite, so can't do that.
You know, you can't run, youcan't.

(20:41):
You know it's and likeeverything is in place, I'm
telling you eat off of thebathroom floor.
And you know he got back and hewas like that was unbelievable.
I couldn't.
It was like it was just likeyou said.
It was awesome, like I think Ithink they were using like
toenail clippers to like trim,trim the grass.
He's like you know all thesesuperlatives.

(21:02):
And then he's like and you knowwhat the import beer was was
only $3.
I got the imported, you know.
So it was like um, you knowjust everything is like super
well done there and there's thisum, there's this energy there
that um imparts everythingthat's good about golf and you

(21:26):
get to see these great playersand hit great shots.
We will talk about the golfcourse a little bit.
You know the greens arephenomenal and you know they're
hitting these shots that youknow move like the second hole
when the guy's hitting a forwardin or something, and you know.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
When's the last time?

Speaker 2 (21:43):
you watched Augusta.
Well, you know I'm going back aways.
I still like to live in thepast.
I still like to live in thepast.
You know they're hitting alonger shot in and it hits that
front left and rolls all the wayback to the right corner.
I mean, that's just really cool, right?
And you don't see that on thenormal PGA telecast.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
No, it right, and you don't see that on the normal
pga telecast.
No, it's a differentpresentation of golf.
For sure, and it's you knowthey do a really nice job.
I think they've they'vedefinitely done the best job of
kind of keeping who they are atthe core of what they are, while
also trying to evolve.
And you know it's it's golf.
Golf doesn't evolve veryquickly, uh, which is probably a

(22:25):
good thing in a lot of cases,but you know, I, as as many
things as Augusta does right,they seem to be finding a way to
do more things right year overyear, and it is.
It's exactly like you said, ifyou, I, I'm very fortunate at
Ben every year since 2019.
And it's just on flipping realat how well run it is.

(22:47):
You, you might be in a line,but the line never stops moving,
you know.
And, like you said, like thebat, you can't imagine how clean
the bathrooms are.
It's unreal.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
Like all day, every day, like perfectly spotless.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
It's unreal, um, but the thing that the golf course
does is, I think, what Augustadoes really well is.
It kind of makes you just alittle uncomfortable from the
course perspective, and I thinkthe thing that's so amazing is,
of course, the design is great.

(23:20):
The way it's presented isimmaculate.
Always it's truly phenomenalwhat they do at the ground level
.
But I think, personally, whatmakes augusta special is the
fact that you have those tallpines and you basically just
have nothing but shoots on theside of a mountain to catch the
wind and like that's the thingthat I think is really missed,

(23:45):
maybe a little bit at augustanational is what makes 12 so
hard is not the shot itself,it's the fact that you have 11
coming in, you have 13 coming in, they're both shoots straight
downhill and then there's a wallbehind 12 that they have to
walk up to get to 15 t and allthat wind converges and creates
this cyclone right above racecreek.

(24:07):
Yeah, then the problem is isnow all of a sudden like how
does that golf ball hit?
That kind of tornado is howit's going to work out, which is
why tiger is always aiming atthe left side of that green,
because he knows that cycloneworks this way and if he gets it
into the left side of thatcyclone, it's going to shoot it
towards the middle of the green,versus hitting that cyclone
head on, where it shoots it downinto the Creek, like you see a

(24:29):
lot of players do.
So I mean it's just I think,like when I see that and I see
that they know that the wind isbeing used as part of the like,
that just seems like very smartdesign to me and it seems like
one of those places to wherethere's not one single thing
that hasn't been thought about,and it's with the sub air and
everything Like.
It's just the place is reallydialed in and you don't get that

(24:52):
same experience, like you said,at any other event in the world
.
It's unreal.
I mean, I haven't been toMonaco.
I've heard Monaco is prettyimpressive, but it can't be as
well run as the Augusta nationalgolf tournament.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, I it's.
I haven't been to.
I mean, I've been throughMonaco, but not there for the
race or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
So all the beautiful people you know a lot of
beautiful people, a lot of boats, a lot of money.
Oh, yeah, yeah, but no it's?

Speaker 2 (25:22):
yeah, it is it.
You know it's phenomenal andyou know, being in the Northern
Hemisphere here it's thebeginning of the golf season
really.
You know being in Michigan andyou know, if you have a long
winter and it's still sort ofdreary in early April, it's kind
of like you're getting fired upbecause the Masters is on.
You know.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
Yeah, man, it's the kickoff to golf season.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
You know, that was like sitting there and seeing
the, you know Jack coming downthe back nine, you know on
Sunday, and you know, is hegoing to do it?
Is he going to do it?
Yeah, he's going to do it.
You know, it was always anevent, it was really cool.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
I mean it's cool.
So I mean it's, it's just a.
It's a, it's so cool how it's.
It's kind of like you know, Ilive in ann arbor and you're a
michigan guy too and if you livein michigan, like thanksgiving
is a detroit lions holiday,right, like it just is living in
michigan, um, and it's, it'skind of cool that michiganders
have that tradition and it's,it's really cool.

(26:23):
But, like to your point, youknow Michigan has that thing,
but like the whole world hasAugusta national right, like
that is basically the kickoff togolf season for the United
States and for most of thepeople, uh, that are big diehard
golfers.
It's just to your point, man,it's, it's become this American
tradition.
I think that the tournament byand large, is more about

(26:46):
families coming together than itis even about the tournament
anymore, because so many peopleget together with their family
to watch it, because they'vedone that from the beginning of
you know, their life.
So yeah, I just think it's megacool.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah, yeah, no, it is Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
So I do want to ask you about something because I do
have a favorite golf coursethat I've played.
I can't tell you why it's myfavorite golf course, but
Kingsley club, I think, is justsomething that's really not what
you would ever expect the golfcourse to be and it's just
really a cool property, you knowit's.

(27:24):
It just really hits at a lot ofthings that I hold near and
dear to my heart because I amvery much a public golfer.
So I know that you've sharedthat you grew up at Crystal
Downs and I'm sure that I justcan't even imagine what that
would be like Because to yourpoint, you're around excellence
all the time and that justbecomes the standard quota.
But I actually come from moreof a public background and like

(27:46):
Kingsley club, even though itwas a private club, makes you
feel like it doesn't matter,like if you can get on the
property here's the golf courseand can you do it.
And man, I really like that.
I think it's so cool, the nutsand bolts, like just this is a
golfer's dream and I'm justreally curious to kind of maybe

(28:07):
have you share a little bitabout how I'm sure that had to
be.
Wild man, like you, you're aMichigan guy, you get this phone
call like, hey, we want to dothis mega.
I'm sure it sounded pretty megacool from the jump or you
wouldn't have been on board.
But like, just like notnecessarily talking about what
you did at the club at first,but maybe talking about like
getting the phone call and whatthat was like and kind of what

(28:29):
your initial thoughts were andmaybe maybe what your original
vision for this project was andmaybe a change.
So I just kind of would beinterested to hear a little bit
about that, because that had tobe kind of a cool moment in your
career.
If I had to guess.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
Yeah, well, so I'd done Pilgrims run north of grand
rapids, um, and that was areally unusual project, um,
because there were six guys thatquote, you know, co-designed
three holes a piece and theywere involved in various ways.
Some of them were, you know,casual golfers, some of them
were really hardcore golfers andthey all worked for mr van

(29:03):
campen, um, which is the vancampen mutual funds, and they
had this big property and they,um, they said, well, let's build
this golf course, you know, andit'd be for us and clients and
people that come in, and youknow, and it would be a cool
exercise.
That's what mr van campen, youknow, sort of looked at it as,
and um, so that was really verydifferent.
And then, um, back to fredmuller, my old boss at crystal

(29:27):
downs um, he uh was friends withart preston, who was one of the
members of the downs, and knew,uh, ed walker, who's a business
associate of of arts.
They had done, they were oiland gas exploration guys here in
michigan, um, down and down intexas, etc.

(29:48):
And all that.
So they had known each otherfor a number of years and
they're both big golfers andthey wanted to, you know,
develop their own club.
And so, um, fred said, hey, I,you know, I want you to meet.
You know, ed walker, and youknow why don't you to meet.
You know Ed Walker, and youknow why don't you come over.
And we literally, like, got abottle of wine out and you know,
and, and Ed sort of basicallysaid, you know, hey, we want to

(30:11):
build this great golf course.
You know, we're not worried, wedon't want to do development,
we don't want to do any of that,we want to build a great course
.
And, um, you know, I found thispiece of land.
I don't know if this is theland that's going to work, and
if it's not, we'll find theright piece of land.
But so that's kind of how thewhole thing started.

(30:32):
And philosophically, you know,I didn't, I didn't know Ed.
So you know, and Fred'svouching for me, he's known me
for 15 years or something atthat time and you know that was
a big, you know it was a bigcommitment for him and for Ed

(30:53):
and Art to.
You know, put that in my handsand you know, give them credit.
They let me do what I needed todo and they were involved, but
they weren't saying, oh, weshould have a bunker here and a
bunker there or whatever and allthat they were more about.
You know they were buying intothe whole thing and that the
sort of the golf course evolvedas we got to know the land

(31:17):
better and what it could be andhow should it play.
And, um, you know, we really youknow they love irish golf and
you know british isles golfwhere the ball is running and
all that.
And so the way to do that is todo it with fescue, and fescue
grows great northern michigan soand we have amazing soils there

(31:38):
, glacial till that just drainsfreely.
So, um, we also got.
So you know they committed tokind of doing that and if that
wasn't going to end up being theway they wanted, we could
always overseed bent grass inthere and you know have the
typical bent grass fairway andstuff like that.

(31:59):
So, um, you know that it wasthe decision to move things sort
of in that direction.
Keep that and to establishthose types of things, did you
like?

Speaker 1 (32:10):
in this meeting, Like I'm just curious, Like so there
was a point where you kind ofwere probably told OK, it's your
project, right.
Like you just walk out to yourcar after that and just go, holy
shit.
Or like, how does, like, how doyou I mean, the scope of one of
these golf courses, man, like Ijust sit there and, once again,
I'm not trained in this field,so maybe that's why it seems so

(32:32):
overwhelming to me.
But it would just seem to melike if I was you and they were
like hey, man, we believe in you, we're going to buy in, we're
going to do this thing that youwant to do on this land, like
that would just seem like thismonumental undertaking for
somebody like yourself.
That's kind of more or less thepoint, man, to start this thing
.
You know what I mean.
It's just holy crap, that's gotto be wild.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah, well, it wasn't quite that definitive, it
wasn't that simple, Like, oh,you've got the job, bing, bing.
It's like, okay, we're going togo with you and we're gonna
figure this out and and.
But you know, if we get sixmonths down the road and we
can't figure out the problem,and this, this isn't the right
piece of ground, we're gonnafind the right piece of ground,
you know.
So, yeah, there was thatcommitment and that was, like

(33:19):
you know, wholeheartedly, Icould, you know, go into it and
like this is, it's 25 minutesmax from my house, so you know
that isn't going to happen again.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
I was going to say, man, that's pretty rare, I would
think.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah, yeah, I'm either like right next to home
or I'm halfway around the worldin Tasmania so, which is
literally halfway around theworld from where I'm at.
So so you, you know it isinteresting how projects are
always different.
I mean, um, and I think it is,you know.
Sometimes, you know, you findsomething and something clicks

(33:56):
in really quickly, and sometimesit takes a while for it to sort
of how was.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
So was kingsley the right piece of property from the
jump was that, was that thecourse they, or the land that
they that?

Speaker 2 (34:06):
was.
That was just.
Yeah, that was the propertythat ed ed had.
He saw this is when he had adsin the paper he saw he saw it's
320 acres, um, you know, forsale and you know he and um his
parents used me.
His wife went down one Sundayafternoon after they saw it in

(34:28):
the paper Sunday morning andlike wow, this is pretty good
and it had all been clear-cutlike 15 years before.
So it was a thicket.
I mean there was a trail goingthrough there but you couldn't
see anything.
You couldn't see in places youcouldn't see 10 or 20 feet into
the bush.
I mean, it was just it was.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
So are you purely looking at like topography, like
if it's covered right withtrees and thicket and whatnot?
Are you like when you'reassessing a piece of property,
are you kind of purely lookingat topography and then kind of
clearing from there, or are youkind of trying to clear where
you think some holes would beand kind of looking at it more
that way, all of that you'redoing as much as you can

(35:11):
anywhere.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
But yeah, no, we had a, we had a topo map, um, and
there's about 105 feet ofelevation on here and the ground
is, you know, it's heaving andmoving and doing all different
kinds of stuff, so you could geta sense of where things were.
And, um, ed, you know the landwas really cheap because they
had sort of raped and pillagedthe timber off of it.
So you know you weren't goingto get any money off of, you

(35:34):
know, lumbering it or anything.
So it was just kind of rawground.
And he said, well, if the golfcourse doesn't work here, you
know this is great pheasanthunting.
Because you know, you, if thegolf course doesn't work here,
you know this is great pheasanthunting, you know you're
flushing a bird every 25 feet.
So so you know he was lookingat it kind of like that that you
know it was an investment andand you know he could do

(35:55):
something else with it maybe.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
So so, by the way, I hope we never hunt pheasants
there, because that place ismeant to be a golf course.
Brother.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
Well, funny story.
We were actually duringconstruction and we were.
Ed was giving some people atour and I was.
So he picked me up, I was onthe dozer and and we're driving
around he's showing the otherland and it's it's hunting
season, so and the dog's in hislab is in.
You know, his hunting lab is inthe car with us and he, he sees

(36:27):
we're going around this trailand he sees him, pulls out the
shotgun, bird's flush, bam, hehits one.
The dog doesn't want to gochase it.
So ed goes out there in hissuit, takes the bird, throws it
in the back and of course thebirds it's dead.
But you know, there's thisreactionary thing and all of a

(36:48):
sudden the bird goes in the backof the suburban.
You know it just about freaksthese guys right out.
I was freaked out too, it was,it was hilarious.
But he's like winston.
You know winston's just sittingthere.
He, he's like I want to gochase it.
You know he doesn't bird, I was, I.
It was very humorous for me.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
So great time so so we got this amazing property at
the Kingsley club.
I mean you've got projects inTasmania.
I mean I'm not somebody in theknow as much as other people
would be, but it seems to melike all signs point to Cape
Wickham links being maybe one ofthe better golf courses that

(37:34):
you can actually play globally.
Is that?
Is that the reception that youguys are seeing down there?
Cause it sure seems like that'sthe reception.
It's getting online.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
Yeah, it is.
So it's's.
It's been open since 2015, umlate 2015, and it's uh, it's
always been in the.
You know that they have golfaustralia and australian golf
digest.
Those are kind of like theaustralian versions of golf and
golf mag.
You know golf magazine and golfdigest magazine, um, and so

(38:06):
they've been in their you knowtheir rankings, been in the top
two, three, um ever since itreally opened, um.
The amazing thing is, a fewmonths ago, australian golf
digest came out with their newranking.
You know they do every otheryear and royal melbourne west is
always the number one course.
Only one time, I think in thelast 40 years, did it.

(38:29):
It was a really bad drought andthey'd had a bunch of stuff
going on or something washappening and it dropped to
number two behind Kingston Heath, probably just because, you
know there was a conditioningthing or something that happened
.
I don't know, but it came outthis year and Wickham was number

(38:50):
one, wow, so, yeah, that, no,that's what I said.
I was like plates had sent me a, a text with the cover and,
like you know, new number one,I'm like what that can't be.
It's Royal Melbourne, so, um,so, and it was in.
There was another Australiangolf passport which is a podcast

(39:14):
.
These two guys do, scott andMatt, and they had the guy on
there that wrote the article andhe that guy has I can't
remember his name offhand but he, um, he's written for both golf
australia and australian golfdigest for the last 20 plus
years.
Um, doing articles and you know, editor and things like that,

(39:36):
and he was on there gave a veryobjective thing about how they
do it and and royal melbournedidn't like it didn't
necessarily drop in its standing.
I mean, its scores wereconsistent.
Wickham just jumped up thislast time and they sort of
explained it real, objectively.
It was very interesting becausethese golf ratings are a very

(39:58):
emotional thing for people.
Oh, we're number one, wedropped three spots, now we're
13 instead of 10 or you know,and like it's in a fin, you know
in a quintessimal little.
You know data points is reallywhat the difference is and if
you think about courses and youjust there's courses that are in
the same class that you knowthat belong there and you could

(40:21):
make the argument that I likethis one better than that one,
for whatever reason.
Um, but Wickham is a, it's avery special place.
It's ocean front dunes and youknow it's a very diverse piece
of property.
Um, it's remote, yet it's onlya 40 minute flight from
Melbourne.
It's not, you know, it's in themiddle of the Bass Strait, on a
small Island, but it is um, youcan get there pretty easily.

(40:44):
So, um, in Australia it'seasier to get there than it is
to get to Bandon.
Bandon is difficult to get to.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
Bandon is difficult.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
Bandon is very tough.
It's very worth it andeverybody should go, because
it's a phenomenal thing.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
So I just had my business partner, uh, in my
facility, like reach out to me,and he was like, hey, man, we,
uh we're overdue for a golf trip, where you want to go, and like
he's had a really good year.
Uh, on his side of the equationand he's like literally pick
where you want to go andobviously the end the answer is
bandon.
Like I want to go to bandon.
So he's like, all right, we'llcall bandon, set it up and we'll

(41:25):
go.
So I called bandon.
Dude you, I think until 2025the I'm sorry, until the end of
2025 you can only book two days.
Like that's the most you canget.
You can only go out for two daysand like go with your brains
out, but like they ain't gotroom for you.
So it's two days max and thenyou're done.

(41:46):
And it's just like you look andit's hard.
Right, like you said it verywell earlier.
Right, like it is a business,like we talk from a place of
emotional, like beings and likepassion, but at the end of the
day it is a business.
And you look at like how much aplace like Bandon cost when you
finally like total everythingup.
Look at like how much a placelike band and cost when you,

(42:07):
when you finally like totaleverything up and it's like man,
it's, it's really reallyexpensive and it's really really
difficult to get to.
But to your point, man, I meanwe're seeing golf course
architecture now to where it'sreally worth going to.
You know, I think it's it'sreally amazing the experiences
that you can have at some ofthese courses, like when I was,
you know, looking up some stufffor this podcast so that I was a

(42:28):
little more well-versed.
You know, golf porn like thatshould be synonymous with CDP,
cause if you go to CDP's websiteand start looking at the golf
courses, you guys do.
I mean you're talking aboutsome of maybe the most beautiful
places on the planet and andlike the property that we're
talking about, cape Wickham inTasmania I mean, holy smokes,

(42:50):
man.
I mean it would be hard tostand there at sunset and not
think you're looking at theprettiest thing in the world, I
think so.
I mean it's just a testament tohow amazing golf is and what
you guys are able to accentuatethat nature already does.
And that's where I think it'sreally different.
The projects that we're talkingabout and what you guys are
able to accentuate that naturealready does.
And that's where I think it'sreally different.
The projects that we're talkingabout and what you do, it's

(43:11):
more about letting the actual,the actual land shine than it is
trying to make it somethingthat it isn't.
And I I think that's really cool, man Cause like you look at
Cape Wickham and like I don'tknow what's great about that,
I'm getting ready to ask you.
But like you can tell that thatis a golf course, that you're
going to have a great timeplaying golf, like you can just

(43:32):
tell it doesn't matter what youshoot, you're going to go out
there, you're going to getchallenged, you're going to hit
some good shots, you're going tohit some shots that you don't
get rewarded for.
But man, that that's golf.
But what I'm curious about is Iget that feel.
But now I want you to nuts andbolts this thing for me and tell
me how or what Cape Wickham hasfrom a architectural standpoint

(43:53):
that makes it stand out Likewhat makes that place actually
great.
That's actually in the designthat maybe we don't understand.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
Well, the sites, the sites really very different than
any other sort of coastal site.
Usually, when you think aboutLynx, golf and the holes that
are on the ocean, they have avery similar environmental sort
of standpoint.

(44:23):
So if you're at deal, it's youknow there's a, there's an
actual seawall, but you knowit's low dunes and you know
you're on the ocean like in thatway, like we talked about saint
andrews already, it's flat, youknow, you don't really see the
ocean.
You get out to eden and you'relike you get a little glimpse of
the river eden and stuff, butyou don't really have that much

(44:45):
relationship.
You're not right on the waterlike you are with the new or
Jubilee when you get over thereand stuff and you get a little
glimpse of stuff you certainlydo from, say, 1t, you look over
from there, but you're not righton it.
It's not that visceral.
Pebble Beach is all you know.
They're short cliffs really,you know.

(45:08):
And then the little highercliffs, but it's all cliffs and
that's a very, that's a jaggededge which is a little different
than a lot of places.
Um, wickham has all of that,it's got.
It's got, it's got big.
You know 60 foot cliffs.
Um, it's got victoria co know60-foot cliffs.
It's got Victoria Cove at the18th hole, which is a sandy, you

(45:31):
know, north-facing, sosun-receiving in the southern
hemisphere, you know, it's likethe Blue Lagoon down there, like
you know.
All you need is Brooke Shieldsdown there.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
Okay, here you know we're in a movie set.
I mean, your references arelike really current.
I really like your references,they're so current.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
There are some guys that will get that.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
Luckily I do, because I remember that movie very well
for very obvious reasons.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
The 11th hole is like practically in the ocean.
You know waves are just lappingup right right out.
You're right on the shore andso it's very different in how
you interact with the oceanthere, because you're looking at
it different ways or you'reexperiencing it from a different
elevation, or viscerally, youknow, you're feeling the heart,

(46:23):
or however they say that inScotland, you know that's kind
of it's rolling in and this andthat, and so you're experiencing
it in so many different ways.
And a lot of the best soils areactually away from the ocean.
They're not necessarily righton the ocean.
You know there's just greatterrain there and the dunes and
how they move and all that sortof stuff.
So the diversity of it just inthe landscape and how you are

(46:46):
able to kind of traverse, andyou know experience, that is one
of the things I think thatreally makes it great.

Speaker 1 (46:53):
Is it because so here's a fun question on that
point when you're talking aboutdiversity right across the
property, you know, I kind ofhave noticed there's like golf
courses, maybe that kind of fit,that mold in my head a little
bit when I'm kind of thinkingback to some courses I've played
.
But it seems to me like whenyou play those types of courses
it almost feels like it endsbefore you're ready for it to

(47:15):
end.
Like, because you haven't beenseeing the same thing time and
time again.
You're kind of like all right,we've seen this, we've seen this
, all right time to go.
All right, we've seen this,we've seen this, all right time
to go.
But like, is it one of thosecourses when you're out there to
where it just kind ofconstantly feels like a net new
experience because of thediversity?

Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yes, but not.
I take it from that that, likeyou know, each experience is
kind of one upping the lastexperience.
That's not.
That's not necessarily goodgolf, though Good golf is.
There's a rhythm and flow tohow.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, um.
So, at wickham, for instance,the first five holes are out on

(47:57):
cape farewell, which is likethis spit of land that like juts
sort of north from where theclubhouse is, and then so one,
two, three goes around that fourcomes back inland and there's
this small lighthouse there, 157feet adjacent to the golf
course.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
What is it with michigan guys, and always like
knowing where the nearestlighthouse is because we have
more lighthouses than any otherstate in the country.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
We we're into lighthouses.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
I can tell 157 feet.
You knew exactly.

Speaker 2 (48:31):
You know it's like nothing against.
You know, down in Harbortownthat's an iconic thing when
they're finishing the tournament.
There's the lighthouse rightthis thing dwarfs.
I mean it's 157 feet, is a lotLike.
That's no building on, it'sjust a tower.
I mean it was built in 1861 andI mean I don't know how.

(48:55):
You know, I mean they're, theseare massive granite blocks that
they, they quarried nearby andthey had a little narrow gauge
rail that like brought theblocks down there to build it.
I mean it's like it'sphenomenal from an engineering
standpoint and they built itbecause there were all these
wrecks there because of the BassStrait and the winds and the
rocks coming through there.

(49:15):
And you know they had.
There was a wreck there, 400and some people died.
Wow Thing only wrecked like acouple hundred yards from the
shore.
So it tells you how, like youknow it was really dangerous.
So, um, it's um, so like thediversity of the landscape is

(49:35):
there that gives you all ofthese different opportunities to
to sort, like, sometimes you'relooking directly at the ocean,
sometimes it's at your side,sometimes you're just right down
at the level of the ocean, youknow, and you've got waves, you
know, rolling in on you.
It's overwhelming.
The first time I saw the siteit's overwhelming.

(49:58):
How you know powerful it is.
And so the whole key tobuilding the golf course is
course is like well, you don'thave to worry about the
spectacle, right?
You know it's gonna, people aregonna go.
Holy shit, that's literallywhat they say the first time
they stand there.
Because it is, you know, it'sthat have you heard of the ride

(50:19):
club.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
Yeah, you ever been there yeah I was fortunate and
got to play it not that long agoand it's.
Is it similar to that?
Because I got the very.
I got a very similar feeling towhat you're saying right now,
standing out there on the rideclub and a very different way
than what I understand, liketopography and everything is
very, very different, but likeit is a overwhelmingly beautiful

(50:46):
piece of property and you justkind of stand there for a minute
and go, whoa that's a rise,scott, you know it's.

Speaker 2 (50:56):
It feels more intimate though.
It's like, yes, and you knowit's not, like there's nothing
around Wickham except for thelighthouse, there's no housing.
The closest house is like acouple of miles away.
I mean, it's like, you know,it's in the middle of it's, it's
at the edge of the world sortof, and and it feels that way.

(51:17):
Right, yes, and it has that,but it's, you know, the focus
for us was trying to figure outrhythm of how you experience the
first few holes.
You're right on this CapeFarewell, and then you go inland
.
Verse 6 through 9 and 10 bringsyou back to the ocean, 13

(51:38):
brings you back inland and thenyou finish 16, 17, 18 on the
ocean.
You can always see the ocean insome way or another.
Sometimes it's a very, you know, distant kind of feel, but you
have this expanse, just kind ofhow it sits out.
So, um, trying to figure thatout was really more about

(51:59):
figuring out the gall and makingsure that the golf was really
good and um, a good friend ofmine.
He was out there early on thething and this is a guy who
plays the trans mississippi andyou know he's a very good golfer
.
Um lives in america but youknow is an englishman um spent
over in the states for um, youknow decades um, but you know he

(52:22):
gets around and he understandsdifferent types of golf and and
he went there.
I didn't know he was goingthere, I just got this note from
him.
He said I knew it was going tobe spectacular.
I didn't know that golf wasgoing to be that good, you know,
which was like a highcompliment because focus on it,
like how can he play?
And you know this guy is reallygood.

(52:50):
So you know I think we hit allthe marks there, which is, you
know which is what you're tryingto do, to and, um, how much
dirt did you have to push?
Um, not a lot, um, a lot ofit's, um, you know, just
incredible natural terrain andthere's areas, like when you get
into sand dunes, um, there areareas where you have to push
things to make them just calmer,you know that, um to make it

(53:11):
playable, because you just yourun into some crazy stuff.
The ninth hole, which is thissuper, it's a way it's it's got
the highest point on theproperty.
Actually, the t is sits up atthe highest point and you're,
you're as far away from theocean as you possibly can be at
that point, and so you can seethe ocean in the distance, and
it's this rollicking short par 5that goes down.

(53:35):
Now, if the wind's coming atyou, you know it's three shots
to get there If the wind's goingforward.
No, I've actually hit Threeshots Me.
I'm a short hitter, I'm a shorthitter and I've actually hit a
seven iron in once.
Oh.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
I hate it.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
I like that.
I think I made bogey when I didthat, though.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
But you hit a seven iron in.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
You know, hey, you got to hit the shot, so I had a
chance, I had a chance, I had achance, you tell me so, um, um,
but there was a big hollow inthere that had sort of swirled
out and we sort of had to, like,you know, we had to fill that
in.
It wasn't, it wasn't functional.
Um, I don't think anybody wouldgo out there and go, oh, that

(54:19):
doesn't look like that belongsto you know.
So you know, I have toliterally go there and say, you
know this, this, this was a 20foot hole right here.
You wouldn't, you wouldn'tthink of it that way, because
it's going around like biggerdunes and stuff and and you know
, that's, that's, that's thestuff.
That's really cool.
People think, oh, this is sonatural.

(54:41):
It's like, you know, I had tomove a lot of dirt there, versus
you know some other place wherethey go.
Oh, I think I actually had tomove a lot of dirt there versus
you know some other place wherethey go.
Oh, I think I see.
No, that was exactly the way itwas In Kingsley, we only moved
about 30,000 yards of dirt total.
Yeah, and that was all that,yeah, yeah, and that's

(55:01):
incredible.
That ridge was there and thosemounds and like we just
flattened them off, them off andlike that's not dirt moving,
that's just shaping.
You know, that's just minorshaping.
But the 16th hole, that green,is the most artificial green out
there, because that was a, thatwas a big valley, just a little
sort of gorge that went throughthere and we pushed all that

(55:25):
dirt and, and you know, built it, built the green out of that so
how, how many renditions ofnine is there that you drew out
and like before you designedthat thing, like, how many times
did you go?

Speaker 1 (55:39):
no, no, no, no, we missed it.
We got to redo it again like itfeels like nine might have
taken a few tries at kingsley,the first green I built actually
okay, I love.
No.
No, I'm not being no.
No, I like the hole a lot.
I don't know, it was one of thebest holes out there.
No, I'm just curious becauseit's a very interesting par

(56:01):
three yeah very interesting well, it's a it's.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
It's the only green we built.
It was one one time there.
I mean that the concept of thehole was there and the landform
was there, spitting out thatlittle jut of land, um, and but
the thing is is we were onlythinking, really oriented from
the left, the western tees, andthen they're, you know the
volcano t, which is the forwardt fromes, and then they're, you
know the volcano tee, which isthe forward tee from the South,

(56:28):
and then the further back, youknow the 162 yard tee.
You know that land was justthere and we're like why don't
we just build tees here?
Cause it's a really differentlook and that's the only par
three there's.
You know, with five par threestoo, that's the only par three
that plays south to north in theorientation.
So from a pure golf standpoint,you know, if I had to pick one

(56:53):
and eliminate one, I would pickthe south t orientation, because
that's very different, and sothat's going to play either with
the wind or against the wind,basically with the way that our
our normal northwest orsouthwest winds are.
So you know you get somethingthat you know you got to hit
more club and it looks a lotmore ferocious because you got

(57:14):
the big valley in the middle ofit.
So it's like all carry to thegreen from there.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
So if you're standing on a piece of land, mike, and
you're laying out holes.
Okay, you're like kind of goingout there doing your thing when
you're sitting there thinkingabout this hole and you're like,
well, I got some runway hereand I could do a couple of
different things and this couldbe a par four or par five, do
you actually think about thewind and playing the hole and

(57:40):
then kind of maybe let that kindof guide it a little bit as
well?
Or is it like, well, this lookslike it should be a par four
and we're going to make it a parfour regardless of the win?
Like, is there a lot of thoughtthat goes into that kind of
like we were talking about withAugusta National earlier, or is
that just kind of a happycoincidence?

Speaker 2 (57:56):
a lot of times, well, um again, all of that they're
very good.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
You should go into politics, mike.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
I'll vote for you don't want to do that, but, um,
yeah, I mean, it depends.
Um, you're trying to, moreimportantly than just that
individual hole is how does thathole work with the hole before
it, the hole after it, how?
What's the rhythm?
You're trying to, moreimportantly than just that
individual hole is how does thathole work with the hole before
it, the hole after it?
What's the rhythm?
It gets back again to therhythm and flow of the golf

(58:29):
course and if you don't haveholes that connect together,
well, if you have 17 marginalholes that don't connect to each
other and you have one greatesthole in the world, you got a
crappy golf course because it'snot just the one hole.
So, you know, cypress pointisn't great because of 16, it's

(58:54):
great because of all the otherthings that work together and,
yeah, that's a highlight, forsure, but that's not the reason
that you, the 16th hole isn'tthe only reason that it's a
great golf course.
No, so you think about there's.
You know Donald Ross was veryprolific and did you know in

(59:16):
excess of 400 golf courses andsome of them he spent a lot of
time at Pinehurst.
The course is up around.
You know Boston and you know inMassachusetts, where he lived
in the summer and you know hewas in Pinehurst in the winter.
So you know he had a lot oftime on site with those.
There's more detailing maybe inthose things, but there are a

(59:36):
lot of golf courses that he did.
He got around and he imparted alot of knowledge and wisdom on
his people and some of the stuff.
You know he didn't see much atall.
It was a plan and they figuredit out.
But the interesting thing abouta lot of donald ross course
that I find is that there's thisgreat balance to him and it's

(59:57):
very playable and maybe it's notthe most spectacular site but
he makes great use of the landand there's this great balance
about it.
And you got to hit golf shots.
Now they're not all Pinehurstnumber two, but it's always a
pretty good test to golf.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
I think.
So I agree 100%.
I think Rosses are always.
I always feel like you're goingto play golf when you go to a
Ross.
Like you're going to go outthere.
It's going to be challenging,there's going to be some easy
holes there always seems to bethat but like there's also going
to be a couple of reallydifficult ones.
And like it's you kind of know,and that's kind of the cool

(01:00:32):
thing.
Right Is like I think architectsin a way all kind of put their,
their thumbprint on thingsright and it's really cool and
I'm sure it would be reallyawesome to know as much as you
do because you've studied it somuch.
But like going back and kind offiguring out what those
signatures are of thesearchitects that have kind of
become, you know, legends withinthe industry, but I mean that's

(01:00:55):
that's what's really cool.
Right is like you kind of knowwhat to expect when you're going
to a die versus a ross, aMcKenzie, like it's.
It's just cool how, like toyour point, like it fits and it
makes sense, but also, and notonly, not only do the holes tie
together, but like the portfoliokind of ties together too for
the architect, and I alwaysthink that's kind of interesting

(01:01:15):
as well.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Yeah, and there, that being said, there's a lot of
things that they did that weredifferent.
You know they had differentphases of their careers and
stuff where, um, you can't justtotally pigeonhole people into
only one this style or thatstyle, whether that's bunkers or
greens or things like that.

(01:01:39):
But I think when you weretalking about, you know, okay,
how do you put all thoseelements together and do that?
And you know, sometimes it's aconcerted effort that you're
trying to do exactly this orthat.
Sometimes it just evolves.
I think if you're just goingthrough the process and you're
there, good things happen.

(01:02:00):
So sometimes that, you know, ispurposeful.
Sometimes it's like, well, ifyou're just doing good work,
it's going to, it's going towork out and you're going to
have a good product, and sothat's a, that's a.
You know that's a.
That's a bit different as far asyou know sort of.

(01:02:20):
You know it's not black andwhite, there's a lot of gray,
and how do you get it to whereit's more black or more white or
whatever?
You know that's.
You know that's the art of it.
That's the thing of how do wemeld into this, how do we get it
to this position versus thatposition?

(01:02:42):
Do we meld into this?
How do we, how do we get it tothis position versus that
position and, um, how can weexcite and engage every level of
golfer with that?
Because you know, mrs have acampus, she's engaged in a
certain way.
She's trying to make contact.
Golly, I'm hot today.
Oh boy.
So you know, oh boy Versus.

(01:03:04):
You know the really good playerwho's trying to hit.
You know trying to hit acertain portion or get to a
certain part of the green.
So he has a chance at birdie oreagle or whatever, and those
are really different.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
Those are really different needs or desires, but
here's a fun question talkingabout exactly what you're
talking about yeah 17 at thestadium course or, I'm sorry, 16
at the stadium course.
What do you think good hole,bad hole, based off what we're
talking about, like playabilityand people being able to be
engaged, and do you think it's agood hole like the island green

(01:03:44):
?
What do you think?

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
well, yeah, I mean, I think it's an experience, I'm
not sure, or 17, the par 3, par3, 17.
Okay, they're different holes.
I want to make sure we'retalking about the same thing,
good deal not enough coffee yetum, no, I think it's a good hole
.
I mean, it's a highlight of thedeals.

(01:04:08):
A lot of people are kind oflike, oh, that's all the golf
course is about and everything.
Well, it's become this, it'sbecome this thing, right, right.
And should every golf coursehave an island green?
No, shouldn't, you know I.
You know I mean that, but youknow that that was this accident
, right, that that just evolvedbecause there was all this

(01:04:28):
really good sand there that theyneeded and they were just
stealing sand.
And Alice Dye said well, youknow, there's your hole, so you
know it sort of worked out.
That was one of those thingsthat just materialized and sort
of you know happened and ithappened to be like a great
thing.
So, you know, it's a short,it's a little nine iron wedge

(01:04:52):
for these guys and but thetournament's on the line,
there's 20 000 people around it.
Um, it's maybe, you know, it'smaybe not the greatest piece of
architecture as far as like, oh,it's got this slope or that
slope or whatever I mean, butit's, it's got everything in the

(01:05:12):
right elements or the rightamount and I think that the
situation makes the whole.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
I don't think that the whole makes the situation.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
Yeah, because you could put that.
You know there are other islandgreens, other golf courses and
they might not be at that pointand they're not playing that
tournament, which has a lot ofmeaning, and so that heightens
it right, here's another funquestion.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
So now we're just going to get you to talk about
all the holes you didn't design?
That's that's what we really doaround here.
We just disparage others.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
You're throwing me under the bus again.
Thanks, here we go.

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
I have a question, because I really think Arcadia
bluffs the original one.
I think it's a great golfcourse.
I don't know that it's a nutsand bolts great golf course.
I don't know that it's a nutsand bolts great golf course.
But I think it's a great golfcourse because I've played it in
weather.
I've played it when it's calm.
I've played it a couple ofdifferent ways.
I've played it with people whoaren't good.
I've played it with people whoare good and like at the end of

(01:06:14):
the day, having a meal lookingout on Lake Michigan from their
clubhouse and being able to seethe golf course in front of you
again from their clubhouse, andbeing able to see the golf
course in front of you, likethat's special, like that's one
of the best meals.
Like the food's really not thatgreat I didn't say that out
loud but like that's a greatmeal just because of what?
Is the scenery right?
Like just got the chef fired,geez, yeah, shoot.

(01:06:36):
But like I mean it's just.
I think it's a great golf coursebecause I think people go there
.
I think it's got one, of course, because I think people go
there, I think it's got one ofthe most impressive pull-ups to
a clubhouse you ever did want tosee, because when you pull up,
man, it feels special Just withit, overlooking the lake and
everything the way it does.
But I think people go there andhave a great golf experience

(01:06:59):
and I think that's what makes agreat golf course.
But I know a lot of peopledon't feel the same way as me
and think Arcadia bluffs is nota great golf course at all.
But I'm just curious as to whatyou're, and we're not trying to
say it's bad or anything, butI'm just curious from an
architectural standpoint, whatdo you think of Arcadia bluffs?

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
Um, well, there there are.
It is.
It's an amazing experience, youknow, because it's a
spectacular vista and all that,and there's some really, really
good holes there, and there'ssome holes there that I don't
think are as good, just with,maybe, how they fit in.
Or again, back to the rhythmand flow.
You know, I would like to seemore ebb and flow in the round.

(01:07:38):
I would like to see more ebband flow in the round, and I
think I feel like they're likeevery hole is trying to one up
the last hole, cause it is sospectacular, right, and to me
that feels, um, you know thatexpectation that that hype is

(01:07:59):
like you can't sustain thatquite, you know.
Um, you know golf, golf takestime and you have to be um, you
have to be in the moment, but atthe same time you have to be
paid, you have to have a certainamount of patience with golf
and you have to focus on thingsdifferently throughout that.

(01:08:21):
Three to four hours, orwhatever I prefer to play in
like three hours, not four plusum, and so you know, for
different people that that meansdifferent things.
Um, I think it loses a littlebit.
Um, not that there's, it's nota great experience, but that

(01:08:43):
just from a pure golf standpoint.
I think there's some thingsthere that don't fit together.
Well, there's a bunch ofdifferent ways to route the golf
, but this is one of theinteresting things about it is
that, because of the crossoversand things like that, like I'm
always thinking about theoriginal routing numbers, that I
am about the where the routingnumbers are now, because they
ended up switching, like holeeight and I don't I can't

(01:09:07):
exactly remember how it is.
Um, now, that's kind of a coolthing because, like, if you have
a private club and you have abunch of different ways that you
can play a number of holes,like from the clubhouse, you
know you could you know ifyou're a member at this club or
whatever you could.
You know, let's say, youclubhouse, you know you could
you know if you're a member atthis club or whatever you could.
You know, let's say, you can't,you know you don't have time
for 18 holes.

(01:09:28):
You can go out and you can buzzaround and do this.
Or it's late in the day and youknow you've had a long day and
you're just like, hey, I'dreally need to just relax and
chill out.
I only got an hour and 15minutes.
I could play that four hole loopthere, you, you know real easy,
or that six-hole loop orsomething, yeah, yeah, and you
know those things are cool and Ithink, like Arcadia has that at

(01:09:49):
the Bluffs course, and then youcontrast that with the South
course, which is a reallydifferent feel and style, and
they've.
You know what Dana you knowreally did there is, he took
this, he took this design styleand this concept and this idea
and he went 140% at it, which iscool and you know it plays, you

(01:10:12):
know the conditioning'sphenomenal.
Jim Block does a great jobthere.

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
I think that's some of the best course conditioning.
I played it a year ago, southCourse.
I think it's some of the bestcourse conditioning I've ever
seen.
I honestly say I honestly meanthat.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
Yeah, no, it's like it's hard and pure, the ball's
rolling, doing you know stuff Iwould never forget.
It's like a really it's.
It's very different.
Those two, those, those twoexperiences are very different,
which is super successful.
They're building the thirdcourse now.
They're building the 12-holecourse right now.

Speaker 1 (01:10:49):
I think if you have a successful brand and I hate to
say that, but if you have asuccessful brand like Bandon
Dunes or Whistling Straits orArcadia Bluffs or I don't know
what you would call that groupnow, but Arcadia If you look at
these established brands, dude,build as many golf courses as

(01:11:11):
you can.
Bandit's sitting there going.
We can only give this guy inMichigan two days at a time.
Well, we need to build moreproperties because he'll buy
more than two days.
You know, like I mean it makessense.
It's just my fear, my fear of itall really is like and maybe
this is not a rational fear, butit's like I just hope we don't

(01:11:32):
get to the point where we andI'm certainly not accusing CDP
of this or any architect inparticular of this, but it's
just like it feels like it's ata race to a $10,000 green fee
right now within the industry,like the first one to get to
$10,000 around wins and likewe're kind of building these
monuments to try to create thatand like, try to create this

(01:11:55):
whole thing.
And I'm just a little worriedbecause the South course, um,
for as an impressive property asit is, you kind of feel like do
they know how good this placeis, you know what I mean.
Like it's kind of understatedand it's not like this mega
expensive, crazy ordeal and it'sjust, it's very, very, it's

(01:12:19):
very good.
But I am concerned, man,because, like you said, like you
said, like you know, we'regoing to keep building golf
courses, and if we already havethe bluffs in the south, well,
now we really got to buildsomething spectacular.
It's just like where is the?
Where do we get to?
Where we kind of lose our way.

Speaker 2 (01:12:35):
And it feels like it could go that way any moment
right now, with the greens feesjust going one way and one way
only well, again, golf's abusiness, so you know, if
there's demand, like you're, youknow, uh, if you're going to,
you know you're going to abandonand you can only get two days,
they're going to charge you.
Whatever they're going tocharge you or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
Now, that being said, um what are you doing in
detroit?
What are you doing in detroit?

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
that's have to be expensive.
I mean, it can be moderate, youknow, and it doesn't have to be
like you know I was, mygrandparents were members of
crystal downs and I wasfortunate to like live in the
area and you'll be able toexperience that and then start
working there.
But I think you know I playedthe nine hole, uh, or the um

(01:13:23):
little you know nine holeexecutive, let's put.
It was like it was par 32 or 32or 34, yeah, anyway, frankfurt
golf club, which no longerexists, unfortunately, which was
like this great place becausesomeone would drop me off,
they'd, they'd pair me up withlike other kids, some old couple

(01:13:43):
, whatever.
That was great, like you gotnine holes here and you need to
talk to somebody and you need toknow how to mark your ball and
not walk in their line and doall this stuff.
That golf is more than justplaying the game.
You know, sure, and sometimesyou know there wasn't anybody, I
just played by myself.
You know there wasn't anybody,I just played by myself.
You know, yeah, and you knowthere are many times like my

(01:14:05):
first birdie ever, I was playingsolo by myself at Frankfurt
Golf Club and it's sort of ablind drive up this hill and
then there's a fence, becausethere's a road there and you
have to hit across this littlefence down and there's a pole
there with number seven and soyou can't actually, depending on
where you're at, you can'tactually see the green.

(01:14:26):
You just, and I hit it thereabout four feet and made the
putt.
Now, it was my first birdie.
Nobody witnessed it, it wasstill a birdie, you know so, but
you know I have memories likethat you know, I grew up on a
par three.

Speaker 1 (01:14:39):
It was an 18 hole.
Uh, it was like a par threecourse.
It would be an executive coursebecause I had two par fours but
they were like 210 yards.
They weren't really par foursbut like all the par four.
Yeah, but same thing, man, likeyou know, the driving range I
worked at, which is how I gotinto the industry when I was
like nine or 10.
The driving range was rightnext door to this place, so like

(01:15:00):
I could just kind of bounceback and forth and like, really,
even as a young person 10, 11years old you're having to more
or less kind of deal with peopleand adults and figure out
situations, and I think all thatstuff is amazing and you learn
so much from people just byhaving conversations.
So you know, it's a great wayto grow up.
For sure, my concern isn't somuch that, look, if you have

(01:15:26):
something and people are willingto pay you what you ask for it,
then it's worth that.
And I'm not trying to say thatit's not fair that these golf
courses are expensive, becausethey have every right to be
expensive and their overhead isinsanely high.
So I have no problem with that,as long as and I truly feel
this this way if your greensfees for adults to go out and

(01:15:46):
play are over 50, okay, duringthe week, I feel that kids
should play for free.
Like it's just like if you goto an event, if you're going to
charge 18 dollars a beer, Idon't care because I don't need
a beer, but I might need need awater, and if you're charging
$18 for the beer, I think wecould give the water away for
free.

(01:16:06):
Mike, you know, like it's justlike we need access and like
that's what concerns me and likethat's what really can makes me
kind of like push back a littlebit against the private club
culture and all that Because Iwant young people and, like the
story you just told, I wantother people to have that same

(01:16:27):
experience, because it opens youup to a whole world that
otherwise you wouldn't be awareof, and like that's the amazing
thing.
Golf has this amazingtransformative power for people
that it allows you to do thingsI would never.
Growing up, mike, I would havenever told you I would own a
business and do the things I'mdoing and travel the world.
But dude, it's all amazing andit's all because of golf and I

(01:16:48):
just hope that more people getto have your story and my story.
And it's a beautiful storybecause it's it's the story of
maturity and growing up, andthat's what golf kind of forces
you to do if you choose to getbetter at it, cause eventually
you just have to look in themirror and go, hey, I'm not as
good as I think I am.
I need to work on these thingsand I'm either going to do that

(01:17:09):
and get better or I'm not andI'm not going to get better.
And like I kind of like the golfat the end of the day as a game
.
You can either play it or youcan't.
And I love the fact that, like,no matter how many access
problems we have, if you canshoot 66, they can't keep you
away, and I love that about thegame.
Like I love that there is acompetitive part to it and it

(01:17:30):
isn't all about, like, beingable to get to the course.
I love the fact that if you canplay, you can play, and if you
can play, then they can't stopyou, and I think that's
beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
Yeah, yeah it's.
You know I work on a lot ofprivate you know old golf
courses and restoration andrenovation type stuff and things
like that and most of the timethose are those are, you know,
private private courses.
Some of them are semi-private,things like that.
But a lot of the new stuff I'vedone, you know Kingsley Club's

(01:18:00):
the only one that's like purelya private golf course.
Gray Walls is semi-private.
I mean there's a big membershipup there but you know you can
pay to play there and stuff andit's still pretty reasonable.
There it's 125 150 dollars,which is great, no problem.
Really like a, like a very youmean you don't talk about you
know crazy ground and likereally cool stuff 60 foot

(01:18:22):
granitefoot granite walls, 10feet off of green.
You'd think how does that workagronomically?
Well, the sun angle and themorning light and the wind and
everything.
It works.
Craig does an amazing jobmaintaining it.
It's a very differentexperience.
You can do that.
The three golf courses aroundGrand Rapids are all public.

(01:18:42):
I think the most expensive oneis maybe $80 or something.
And you can do that.
But the three golf coursesaround Grand Rapids are all
public.
I think the most expensive oneis maybe $80 or something.
So perfect, yeah.
So you know, good golf doesn'thave to be super expensive.
You can still have good golf ifyou've got good ground.
And in Michigan we're fortunatebecause of the glaciers, you
know they've churned up andthere's a lot of sand and
there's a lot of good drainage,and we have a lot of sand and

(01:19:04):
there's a lot of good drainageand we have a lot of good clean
water.
So you know, we're, we're,we're really, you know, overly
abundant in the things you needto create decent, decent golf
courses.
You just have to put a littletime into it and you know and
manage that and that you know,so that's a that's a very

(01:19:27):
fortunate thing to have.

Speaker 1 (01:19:28):
So, before I run out of time, I am curious because I
know you potentially have aproject going on in Detroit.
Detroit is my favorite city inthe world.
It's my adopted city, I love itto death and I'm very excited
that you maybe have some newsthat's going to be very
interesting to hear.
So I would maybe love to hear alittle bit that you can share
with us about what maybe isgoing to happen in Detroit.

Speaker 2 (01:19:45):
Well, um, yeah, hopefully this is going to
happen.
There's a group that is um,that is looking to acquire a
parcel and um and do it.
It's not ready for you know,they've been, they've been
trying to draw some interest andthings like that, you know,
through social media and allthat kind of stuff and um, but

(01:20:06):
yeah, but hopefully, and that'sthe sort of thing, it would be a
thing that would have, um, somepublic play to it.
They would have certain typesof memberships that would, you
know there would be sort of acore group that would.
That, you know, would be thereand, you know, have different
events.
It's a bit more of the UK orAustralian type model of
membership where members have apreference to times and things

(01:20:33):
like that and they're sort ofcommitted.
They're like the core of the,but it also allows outside play.
So there's a lot of differentways of doing that and that's a
little, you know, the typicalAmerican one if it's a lot of
different ways of doing that andthat's a little, you know, the
typical american one.
If it's a private course, likenobody's allowed in unless
you're with a guest or with amember with, you know, as a
guest.
Um, gray walls is a bitdifferent, like that.

(01:20:54):
You know they have this bigmembership.
They have two golf coursesthere, um, and so you know they
have.
We call it the factory becausethat place does more golf than
any other place I can everimagine.
And you know, late June they'reat the far north and west end
of the eastern time zone they'reparking golf carts at quarter
to 11 at night, I believe it,because they've done like the

(01:21:17):
men's league.
They've done 200 rounds after 5o'clock Because everyone works
the full day, they go out and dotheir men's league and like
it's just a zoo, it's just like,and so, um, you know we joke
about it.
We call it the factory.
How's the factory doing?
It's like good, full sheettoday again.
So, um, you know, which isawesome.

Speaker 1 (01:21:38):
Yeah, it's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:21:39):
People are, people are playing and they love their
golf and they get out and youknow they're the UP is.
You know it's a lot of a lot ofpeople that love the outdoors,
whether that's golf, biking,hunting, fishing, camping, you
know, yeah, everything.
I mean you know it's it's fullon, so, yeah, it's, it's super

(01:22:01):
fun.

Speaker 1 (01:22:02):
I mean you know it's, it's full on.
So, yeah, it's, it's super fun.
Well, that's awesome, man.
I mean I didn't even get togray walls.
And I mean there's a multitudeof properties that you've
touched and been associated withthat we haven't even talked
about, and I mean that kind ofspeaks to.
You know your commitment toyour craft, and when I think of
you, I definitely think of acraftsman, you know, and I mean

(01:22:27):
that in a very sincerecompliment kind of way, and I
think of David the same way.
Like, david is one of thoseguys that can put his hands on
something to build you whateveryou think of, and it doesn't
matter whether it's metal, wood,whatever plastic, like the man
can, can make things happen withhis hands, and you're no
different.
You just happen to need alittle assistance with a dozer.
So, um, I'm a?

Speaker 2 (01:22:47):
I'm a sculptor, uh, using a 20,000 pound machine.

Speaker 1 (01:22:51):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's, it's just super cool, man,
and like there's a there's anartistic integrity.
I would say, you know, to whatyou do, and I would say that
David, uh, david, adele, alsoshares that artistic integrity
and I think that a lot of thatintegrity stems from trying to
do the right thing.
And you know there's ahumbleness, you know, to you and

(01:23:14):
to David and to other peoplethat share this, to where kind
of what you've alluded tomultiple times today, what
you've alluded to multiple timestoday.
Yes, like I would love to siton that tee box and tell you
that I dreamt the whole thing upand it just appeared, but in
reality, like I did a lot lessthan you think I did, like I
tweaked it a little, but like,and that just shows, like that,

(01:23:34):
that you're not trying to makeit about you, you're trying to
do what's right for that holeand for that property and for
that ownership group, and I justI think that's really
refreshing because I think a lotof people go out to put their
stamp on things and don't reallycare about the shareholders in
that situation for the most part.

(01:23:55):
So my hat's off, man.
I think you really do thatstuff well.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
Thanks, I appreciate that.
I think you appreciate that.
Um, I think you know, um, youtalked, you know, at the
beginning you talked about cdpand so clayton, the recent pot,
mike clayton, who's in australiaand played the european tour,
for you know, 20 plus years andaustralia asian tours, for you
know, in excess to 30 years,when they used to have, you know

(01:24:21):
, they have season in Europe andthey had a season back home in
Australia and he got into golfarchitecture kind of by.
He was writing about golf andhe had two, two, two guys that
were superintendents, reallygood superintendents, john and
Bruce, that you know couldexecute his sort of concepts and

(01:24:45):
things.
Like Clates has been around golfhis whole life, growing up,
caddying and a great amateurplayer and professional and you
know he's the philosopher andthen Frank's in the Netherlands
and Frank was a civil engineerand then he was in finance and
you know he just just he wantedto do what he wanted to do and
so he got into into golf andstuff and he grew up on an old,

(01:25:08):
an old harry colt course andcalled einhoven, which is like
amazing and nobody ever talksabout it.
It's really good and um, um,you know, when we came together
about five years ago.
There's this synergy there thatwe don't work on everything
together but we, you know wetalk a lot and you know

(01:25:29):
sometimes we work on the sameproject together or all three of
us do, but sometimes it's justlike.
You know, I need feedback and Ineed this.
You know, and you get thisphilosophy that comes from three
different sort of experiencesin the game, but with the same
end goal is how do we make thebest experience, like on a golf

(01:25:52):
course, the best golf?
How do we, how do we make thatunique and special for that
group of people, that client oryou know, or just honoring that
land and what we do?
And that's been the thingthat's been the last couple of
years when I've been back downin Tasmania.
So I did Wickham 11 years ago,but Seven Mile Beach, which is

(01:26:15):
right next to HobartInternational Airport, literally
10 minutes away and 25 minutesto downtown Hobartart, which is
a quarter million people orsomething in the area you know
it's this again oceanfront dunes, amazing sort of thing and then
doing that with clates, where Iwas there every day and clates

(01:26:35):
was there for two or three daysevery other week.
He's seeing stuff that I'm not,you know, when you see something
every day, you kind of like youknow like it does help, seeing
it evolve.
But you also, like when you,when you go away and you come
back and something's changed andclay, so you know, see
something else, and you know itwas just a constant refinement

(01:26:57):
to get to the peak of themountain, like, okay, how do we
make this better?
How do we squeeze out anotherone percent?
You know, you know we got an a.
I don't, I'm not satisfied witha, I want an, a plus.
So how do we, like you know,how do we move that up?
And that was you know, that'sreally cool.
That you know working withthose guys and all our other

(01:27:18):
associates and other people thesuperintendent that's on the
site and the you know just thecrew.
You know some kid that's got arake in his hand like this is
how you got to rake it.
This is, this is what we needto do, because this is affecting
how that.
You know how that seed getsdropped, et cetera, or whatever,
and that's awesome.

(01:27:39):
That's really is like you know,every day.
That just makes every day.
You know, the perfect day forme is waking up before the sun
rises and getting out of dozeras the sun's coming up and then
getting off the dozer when thesun's going down, that's like
the ultimate day.

Speaker 1 (01:27:58):
I hear you, man.
I just want to teach golf, Iwant to wake up and teach golf
and teach golf, so I can't do itanymore.
And I mean, like I just thinkit's because, you know, I like
to think that I'm coming from aplace of passion with what I do,
I know that you're coming froma place of passion with what you
do and I just think that'swhat's fun, man, like when I,
when I try to pick guests forthis podcast, it's not

(01:28:19):
necessarily about namerecognition or what someone's
contribution is, it's just Iwant to find people who are
passionate and kind of sharethis passion of golf, whatever
that means to them.
I just want to bring morepassionate people together,
because we all have this, thisvery strong feeling about golf,
and it means different things tome than it does to you, than it

(01:28:39):
does to the people listening.
But that doesn't mean that it'snot the greatest thing ever for
all of us, because it is, and Ithink that's what's great,
right, yeah, so well, hey, buddy, you know what?
I got some golf that I get toteach.
You don't have a dozer to get ontoday, but you do have a
wedding, so you got to make sureyou get that hair just perfect

(01:29:00):
for that wedding.
So I want to give you plenty oftime for that.
The fro will be jamming.
I like it, man.
I like the fro.
It's a good fro and I mean,look at me, I wish I had a
little more, but LA looks strong.
Hole number five took care ofmy hair for me, so now we don't
have any more.
So, anywho, thank you so much,mike.
I really really appreciate yousitting down and talking to us,

(01:29:22):
sharing your insights.
It's been great.
If you are really wanting toenjoy some beautiful scenery,
please go check out DeVriesDesigns on social media as well
as on his website.
Then you can also visit the CDPwebsite as well and see all of
the properties that they areassociated with.
They are truly some of the mostmagical golf courses in the

(01:29:45):
world and really, really awesomeproperties, because, as you
heard from Mike himself, there'sa lot of care that goes into
making sure that yourexperiences match exactly what
you expect.
So thanks so much to Mike fortaking the time to join us.
If you haven't already, pleasemake sure to subscribe to this
podcast and download it, anduntil next time, keep grinding.

Speaker 2 (01:30:07):
Thanks, appreciate it .

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