Unlocking the Secrets to Hitting a Golf Ball Farther with 6-Time World Champion Jason Zubak

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
like I said, I'm gonna read us in real quick.
Um, I'll throw it to you andthen we'll just kind of let it
rip man, and kind of whateveryou want to talk about.
I'm game with uh.
So yeah, there's like no holdsbarred, but I'm not trying to
trap you, so you're okay, youthere?

Speaker 2 (00:24):
I lose you, I hear you.
There you go yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
There we go, All right cool.
So, you good.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Yep, are you on Wi-Fi or are you plugged into
Ethernet?

Speaker 1 (00:42):
I'm on Wi-Fi, but I should be pretty good.
It generally is pretty good forthis.
Let me do one thing real quickthough.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
On your feed.
It's at low bandwidth, oh nice.
Are you on cable or are you on,I guess, fiber optic, probably
where you're at right?

Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, it's fiber Crap .
Hopefully it will be okay.
Yeah, it's recording right now,so we're good.
Okay, yeah, we'll let it rip,all right.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of the measured golf
podcast, where we are veryfortunate because it's a new
season, which means new guests.

(01:22):
Fortunately for us, we have meta few people over the past
couple of years that have beenkind enough to come onto the
podcast with us, and one of thepeople that I thought was the
most interesting people that Ididn't expect to be so
interesting was none other thanone Jason Zubak.
You better know him asGolfzilla because when it comes

(01:42):
to the World Long Drive andprofessional long drive
championships, jason is nostranger to winning those
winning five in the opendivision, one in the master's
division, making him a six-timeworld champion.
And not only can he hit a golfball far, but he's like turned
into this guy who's like reallyinterested in how he does it and

(02:02):
like that's what I'm superinterested in.
So I met Jason via Smart2Move.
He's doing amazing stuff withthem and trying to help them
understand application from hispoint of view, and I think he
really has a lot to bring to thetable.
So, without further ado, noneother than Golfzilla himself,
jason Zubak.
Jason, how the heck are youbuddy?

Speaker 2 (02:21):
I'm good, Michael, it's great to be with you and
thank you very much.
It's certainly an honor and apleasure to be here and
hopefully I could share somefairly interesting things, maybe
some insightful things, thatI've learned through my 30 years
in competing in long drive andtrying to be the best in the
world at what I do.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, I mean, that's the fun thing, man.
It's like no stone unturned andyou know we're we're diving
into a world of ground reactionforces and you know looking at
things that can't be seen withthe naked eye.
So you know there's a lot ofnew information there.
But you know, before we getinto maybe all the geeky ground
reaction for stuff, you know,here's what I'm curious, because

(02:59):
I know you're always learningwhat's the last thing that you
kind of picked up and were likeyou know what?
That's pretty good Like.
What's the last thing that madeyou sit back and go like you
know what?
Like I wish I would have knownthat back in my competition days
.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
It's an interesting evolution, michael, like through
the years.
As you know, I'm 54 years old.
I wouldn't say I was late tolong drive, but I started, you
know kind of when I was about 20, you know kind of 26.
After I finished my educationalbackground, I achieved a degree
in pharmacy.

(03:35):
So I practiced as a pharmacistfor a number of years.
Throughout my junior amateurdays I played at a quite a quite
a high level and was relativelyaccomplished.
And then I was trying to playprofessionally a little bit
while I was practicing pharmacyfull-time and, as you know, um,
at at any element of theprofessional level and and you

(03:56):
know I'm speaking professionalCanadian tour, um, you know it's
been renamed a few differenttimes, but the Canadian tour at
the time.
And, uh, you know it's beenrenamed a few different times,
but the Canadian Tour at thetime.
And you know it was tough.
And the way I got started was Iwas playing in a Monday
qualifier.
I hit a you know I was dry.
I've always driven the golfball well and I've always

(04:18):
endeavored to hit it as far ashumanly possible and one of the
guys I was playing with said hey, like you know listen, uh, um,
you should try this long drivething, right, and I'm like I've
seen it before.
But you know I'm trying to play, you know I'm not just trying
to hit it far, but whatever.
But anyway, uh, I sort ofdigress.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
You're not wrong though, because it was kind of
like a sideshow back then Right,like it wasn't what it became
to be when, like you were outthere and competing.
But like back in the day, likeif you were a serious golfer,
like you never even ventured thethought of doing what Bryson
did and trying to do both at thesame time, like that's a new
thing, like what you're talkingabout is very typical, for back

(04:59):
then.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Right, you know I was trying to play well, something
I always did well, hit it far.
And all these power movementsin sport I always gravitated to,
whether it be running thefastest 100 meter, hitting a
baseball as far as I could,throwing it as fast as I could,
shooting a hockey puck, you know, through the net, through the

(05:21):
plexiglass, you know, throughthe net, through the plexiglass.
You know all these, you knowthese power aspects of sports.
I tried to.
You know I tried to kick asoccer ball the length of the
soccer field.
You know all these things andyou know golf was no different
and hitting it off the tee was.
You know it got me in troubleplaying right, because you can't
, you know you can't just goafter everything.

(05:41):
It's something I like to do,but to the detriment of my life.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
I mean you can?
Well, you can.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, but I guess to your question, back then we
didn't have this element of allthis information at our
fingertips, the internet right,we didn't have.
You know you could researchanything you want to, although

(06:10):
you have to wade through all theyou know, maybe not so good
information and and and reallypick out the pertinent, good
quality information.
And that's why experts exist,like yourself, uh, like myself
that you know are crediblesources of information.
We'll talk about that later.
But back then it was, you know,it was kind of trial and error,
like you grab this driver, seehow far you hit it.

(06:31):
We didn't have track man rightTo analyze.
You know launch angles, spinrates, exit velocity, you know
things like that.
We didn't.
You know we had.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
Did you have custom equipment back then, or were you
guys just playing retail stuffas well?

Speaker 2 (06:47):
Well, a lot of retail .
Like the way I started was, youknow, callaway, great big
Bertha, 6.5-degree stock shaft.
There was another driver, cubicBalance.
I don't know if you rememberthat one.
It was the first grovelessdriver, so there was no grooves
in the face.
That one, it was the firstgroveless driver, so there was
no grooves in the face, andtheir theory was the reduction

(07:08):
in reduction of spin which youknow, you know, perhaps not with
the lower lofted clubs, it'sthat important, but again, it's,
you know it's.
It's uh, uh, a very, you know,kind of valid way to go like a
stock cubic balance.
Driver langertanger was anotherone, one of the metal wood
manufacturers.
Then, upon more exposure to thesport, I saw guys were using,

(07:32):
you know, customized, you knowthey had tailor-made heads that
were lower than what you can buyat the retail at that time,
like the tour, the burner wasonly seven degrees but guys were
bending heads or getting headsfrom tailor-made that were lower
, longer shafts.
I'd never seen a longer shaftthan what was in the rack at the
at the pro shop and I, you knowso, seeing some of these guys

(07:54):
with, uh, you know, at that time, total length of the club was
45 inches, um, you know, guyswith you know 48, 50, 55, 60
inch, 65 inch, and I I'd neverseen this before.
So I'm like, oh, this isinteresting, so, but again, it
was trial and error, we didn'thave all this technology.
And you know, getting to youryour question, that you know

(08:15):
what you know, had you know,probably, you know the force
play technology has been not agame.
You know it's a tool in ourtoolbox and I think it's a
robust tool, right, and butunderstanding, you know, these
forces at that ground, footinterface, right, and their
implication on creating movementin the golf swing, right, it's

(08:39):
um, a lot of these tools canmake things really easy, like
track man, for instance.
Right, like, if I'm, I alwayssay to the guys, you know, we
had TrackMan back, you know, inthe late, you know, mid 80s, you
took your shag bag of balls,you went and hit them on the
first hole and you went andtracked it down.
There's your TrackMan, you arethe TrackMan, right.
And then you know I've gotvolumes where that's how I had

(09:03):
to do it because we had, wedidn't have the sophisticated
technology where, okay, thisdriver, you know 46 inches, five
degrees loft, you know, 6.5degree Callaway, great big
Bertha.
You know, carry 365 yardsrolled out to 385.
Okay, here's the Taylor Bayburner at 48 inches.
Here's what it did.
I have volumes of this where I,you know, the ultimate, or the

(09:25):
gold standard I always say isfinding your golf ball.
You know, track man, flightscope, gc quad, you name it.
They're great tools to have but, again, you know, finding our
golf ball is the gold standard.
And but you know, to yourquestion, I think you know some
of the.
You know the force playtechnology and that's what the

(09:47):
guys are using now to really,you know it's an emergent
technology and you know, you'rean expert in this and you've
been, you've been at it asignificant amount of time.
And you know some of the guysthat led the way, like Mike
Adams.
You know, when adopting thisforce play technology but, man,
it can make things reallyinteresting.

(10:09):
On the time conservation side ofthings, are we doing the right
things at the right time withthe right magnitude?
There's a whole bunch ofparameters, as I've discussed
before, but it's one of thosetools that tells us how things
are happening.
We've got this whole basket oftools to tell us what's
happening right.
We have our eyes and you know.

(10:31):
For example, a player asked melike who, you know who, who's
got the best eye?
And I'm like, well, you know,butch has a really good eye,
like he's almost like a, like atrack man, you know 3d motion
capture, a force plate, fromwhat he sees and he processes in
his mind um, but you know, we,we have our eyes to tell us
what's happening.
We have, you know, uh, I knowyou use a few different tools on

(10:54):
the motion capture.
We've got a whole bunch oftools like that the magnetic
resonance.
We've got markerless motioncapture.
Now we've got things like gearswith the infrared 3d motion
capture technology.
This is another robust tool totell us what's happening.
But we don't have a whole bunchof tools to tell us what.

(11:17):
You know, the you know like howthings are happening right and
like how is this motion createdright?
So again, yeah, I think that's,you know, the force bike
technology has been, you know,fairly significant and you and I
are in that direction.
We see the value in it and it'sinteresting because there's a
lot of people that deny thatforces occur at the ground level

(11:41):
.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
Yeah, but the good news for us is that they're out
of business really quick because, like, we can help people make
sizable change very quickly andthey spend, you know, months, if
not years, fiddling abouttrying to make it happen.
And like, honestly, like Idon't even waste my time with
the people who want to refutewhat we're measuring, because
it's a measurement and like itis what it is.
I'm not saying that good, goodground force data makes a good

(12:05):
golfer.
That's not true, but itcertainly helps.
I wouldn't say it hurts in anyway.
I'm, I know lots of golfers whoare very, very good players but
also don't move in a veryefficient way and don't use the
ground very well, and they'reguys that typically don't make
as much speed as the guys thatthey're competing against on
tour.
So, to your point, man, it'slike track man tells us about

(12:27):
what the club does and aboutwhat the ball does, and 3d
motion capture tells us aboutwhat the joint segments do, and
then force plates tell us aboutthe ground reaction forces.
But at the end of the day, whatI really want to know is like,
hey, you know what was yourintent and what happened and
what's the difference, why youknow, like that's at the end of
the day, what are we trying tosolve for?

(12:48):
And I think you do a good jobof that because you know you
guys figured this stuff outwithout the tools.
And I was talking and doinganother episode of this podcast
with another great coach and wewere kind of talking about this
very thing.
But you guys were athleticenough to figure this out with
bad technology, that wasn'tcustom, and you didn't have the

(13:10):
numbers and you had to dig itout of the dirt and like my
hat's off because you guys, likewere good enough to figure it
out and overcome and achieve andI'm kind of this guy that
played OK but never really hadthe tools and the skill set to
become like great withoutknowing exactly how to do it.
So what I had to do is I had tolike learn it, the like ins and

(13:30):
outs of it from like themeasuring everything every
different way, and then kind oflike teach myself how to do the
things, understanding theconcept better and like that's
where I think like things goterribly amiss with this is like
I don't think you're sayingground reaction forces are the
be all, end all.
I'm not saying they're the beall, end all, but man, it sure
is nice because I can see a ballfly and I can see a human move,

(13:53):
but I can't see, no matter howhard I try, the pressures,
forces and torques that are kindof making a lot of that stuff
happen.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
Absolutely, michael.
Yeah, totally.
I view everything as a tool inour toolbox.
Right, and the more tools thatwe have, I think you know the
more tools we have can be better.
You have to know how to usethem effectively, right, and uh,
uh.
But I think you know, like the,they're just so calm.
I mean it's it's not.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
I get like the they're just so calm.
I mean, it's, it's not.
I get like the problem that Ithink really exists is that
everybody's selling uh hey, Ican make you scotty shuffler by
this afternoon.
And like we both know thatthat's not true.
But people fall for the trapbecause they hear it enough
times.
And like what we bothunderstand probably better than
a lot of people would is thatwhen you change something in

(14:46):
your golf swing, whatever youthink it is right, when you make
a change like, you have to likereally write a new program
within your nervous system,which is like going to take
repetition and time and firingacross that muscle to like
really get it to happen underany kind of strength.
And it's like it's just changetakes time.
And what I love about the forceplates like I go down rabbit

(15:08):
holes like you wouldn't believe.
I can't imagine what you'relike, because back in the day
that's all you could do is godown the rabbit hole and find
out what was there.
But like now you can like try alittle experiment and be like
hey wonder if I try to likeincrease my impulse this way,
what happens?
And like now, instead ofguessing and thinking you did it
when you didn't change a thing.
You can actually, like, measureit, look at it objectively and

(15:30):
then go, hey, that either doesthe, does it make the ball do
this or doesn't it.
And at the end of the day, like,if you're trying to use any of
these tools and it doesn'tequate to changing the ball
flight in the desired way of theperson that you're trying to
help, it doesn't matter anyway.
Like just because, like, youmake graphs better, like hey,
did they play better?
Like that's what I want to know.

(15:51):
Like I don't really care thatwe made graphs better, I want to
know did the player play better?
Did they feel more confident?
And, more importantly, can theyback it up day to day, week to
week, month to month?

Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yeah, no, that's a.
That's a great point.
I was going to bring that up.
I had that on my list to uh, uh, to discuss in.
You know, some people, whenthey first get into the, you
know the force plates and such,or even the kinematic data that
we get from whatever system,right, well, we're looking at,
we're looking at rotationalvelocities of the pelvis, the

(16:22):
thorax, the arm, at, we'relooking at rotational velocities
of the pelvis, the thorax, thearm, the hand or the club,
whatever, right, and and in theforce plates, we're looking at,
you know, a variety of graphs,right, and this is a great
example.
I, I was, you know, working withpodrick harrington.
Uh, we, we had one of thechampions tour events here a

(16:43):
little more than two weeks agocalled the Rogers Charity
Classic, and we were supposed towork on Monday after the round,
but after the tournamentconcluded, but he changed his
flight.
Anyway, you know, padraig, he'sa very hard worker, very
intelligent, obviously veryaccomplished, world Golf Hall of
Famer.
But he had the lead after thethird hole kind of gave it up

(17:06):
and the rest of the day was sortof a wash.
And you know, I said, hey, thisis an ideal.
If you want to, you know I'llfly and meet you somewhere, but
you know you're here now, ifyou've, if you're up to it.
And we put in three hours ofwork after the round, after you
know he had the lead and kind ofdidn't, you know, bring that

(17:27):
win to fruition.
But again, you know we workedon, you know very specific
things that he wanted to work on.
But you know I made the graphslook better, but then it wasn't
translating right.
So, to your point, we can makethe graphs look better, but we
need to.
You know, ultimately it's theball in the air.
What does the ball do?
Right, we need to influencethat.

(17:47):
Is it better?
Are we, are we, you know,making cleaner contact?
Is it achieving the things thatthe player wants to achieve to
help them to play better?
You know there's a lot ofdifferent vectors, but just to
play better, what have you?
So eventually I was able to getwhat was the beneficial aspect

(18:09):
of our interventions to the clubright.
So, you know, getting, you knowall this stuff that we're doing
, improving graphs and such butwe've got to get it to the club
and eventually get it to theball.
So we were able to do that.
But again, a lot of guys.
You know, hey, you know, Iimproved this guy's vertical.
Uh, you know, you know, 50%.
Okay, what happened?

(18:29):
Well, we didn't do anything.
Okay, well, that didn't matter,right.
So, let's, let's, uh, you know,let's, you know, please, we need
to.
You'll be conscious of that endresult and it's the golf ball
where it goes, how it flies.
You know all these things, andis it making a positive change
with respect to that?

(18:49):
Um and?

Speaker 1 (18:51):
I get.
I get a fair amount of likephone stuffed in my face, like
I'm just recognizable enough ingolf circles to where, like,
everybody loves to stick a phonein my face and go, hey, what do
you think of my swing man, whatshould I change?
And I'm like dude, I don't know.
And they're like what do youmean?
You don't know.
And I'm like, well, first off,like what's wrong?

(19:16):
Like tell me about what's wrong.
And like I had, you know, a fewlessons this morning and I had
a guy that came in and you knowI asked that question,

(19:45):
no-transcript, right.
So at the end of the day, likethe only reason people care
about any of this force platestuff is because they think it
will translate to hitting theball closer to the hole and
shooting lower scores.
And it doesn't always work thatway.
But like that's what they'reafter.
So, long story short, I thinkthat you have to help them
understand like, hey, the clubis moving left or the club is

(20:10):
moving right, and you can talkabout club path or swing,
whatever you want to reference,I don't care.
But like you got to get golfersto realize they don't swing the
club straight.
Most golfers do not swing theclub with a zero club path, just
like playing golf.
They just don't.
And what they don't realize isthat they have to match a face

(20:32):
to the direction they swing aclub.
And this is what kills me themost.
Jason, I get so much credit forhelping people gain speed.
It's crazy.
I've had people say the nicestthings because I legitimately
can help people gain 10 to 15miles an hour club speed, very,
very quickly.
It's not hard to do.
However, it's not because ofwhat I do with the ground
reaction forces.
It's what I do with the face topath relationship, because not

(20:53):
one golfer ever is going toswing hard at a golf ball when
they think the face is shut atimpact, right?
Not one golfer is ever going totry to hit one hard with a face
that's shut at impact, becausewe all know what's coming and
that's why everybody sacrificestheir ground reaction forces and
their kinematic values and thesequencing and everything to try

(21:16):
to get the face back open,because we can't play golf with
a shut face.
The ball doesn't get in the air.
So at the end of the day,brother, like if you can't help
people conceptually understandthat and then tie the other
things to it and help it make amore complete holistic picture
for them.
Like it's just not even worththe time of showing them that
stuff, because if you're notgoing to get them to buy into

(21:38):
why they have to change thesecertain movements, they're just
not going to change, like theydon't care what their impulse or
their vertical force percentageis, you know like they just
don't.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah, no, I, I totally agree the uh, you know
that, uh, you know, you knowthat face to path relationship
is extraordinarily important,right, obviously, you know.
You know you know it'sinteresting cause.
You know people always say,okay, that's what dictates our
axis, tilt, that's what you knowdictates direction, you know

(22:11):
that, you know it does so manythings Right and, um, you know,
once we clean that up, like face, you know obviously both of
those factors are important.
But again, you know being ableto understand where the face is
in space and time right Is ismonumentally important to

(22:33):
playing better golf.
Right, I, I had a, you knowlike a fellow that just started,
you know kind of got back togolf and just understanding, you
know, like you know it was, itwas quite astonishing where you
know he was doing it withathletic ability.
But then just just thatunderstanding of you know what

(22:56):
you know dictates, you knowdirection, what dictates
curvature, you know obviouslyyou know center of face contact
is is going to overwhelm, youknow most things if it's very
poor right with gear effect.
But again, you knowunderstanding those
relationships.
And then you know kind of back,you know walking it back with.

(23:16):
You know these other tools thatwe have to, you know, I guess
you know really hammer home orimprove upon.
You know just the this veryfundamental aspect.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, I mean it's.
I don't think that, generallyspeaking, I really feel strongly
that we're not using forceplates to create new information
.
I think we're using forceplates to better understand the
information that's already outthere, because if you search
long enough on YouTube orInstagram, you're going to find
whatever you want to hear aboutthe golf swing.

(23:50):
There's somebody saying it, Ipromise.
I mean you've sent me somedoozies in the past on Instagram
.
So like we know that there'scrazy stuff out there, but you
know, kind of going back to whatyou were saying earlier, right,
like being able to filter thatinformation and understand, like

(24:11):
what's usable versus what isn't, and does it come from a
credible source of information?
Like those are like reallyparamount, and like buying into
what you're learning.
So, at the end of the day, likeif, if you don't, like if I take
a YouTube tip and I go to thelocal driving range and I try it
and it doesn't immediatelyproduce a better ball flight, I
don't, I don't buy that tipanymore.
Like I think that tip doesn'twork.
So like, at the end of the day,like we have to create a ball

(24:34):
flight that matches the intentof the golfer.
And the problem is is like mostpeople would just like set up
to a golf ball lined up with theface exactly straight at the
target, and then like think it'srailroad tracks or whatever
they tend to believe, and thenthey just swing away at it and
like I always ask golfers, I'mlike how many shots on the golf
course do you hit that flyperfectly straight from end to

(24:56):
end, and they're like, um, none.
And I'm like okay, like coolgotcha.
So like, why do we keep aimingthe face?
Like we we're going to havezero curvature on the golf ball
and like it's just amazing to me, like, as intricate as we want
to make it, jason, like, and wecan, and I can take something
very simple like talking about,you know, getting the face to

(25:19):
path relationship to where theface isn't shut to create more
speed.
I can make that vastly morecomplex and talk about vertical
forces and breaking forces andhow we use that to act upon the
golf club.
But we're taking thisinformation that we're finding
and finding that the guys thatcame before us the Mike Adams,
like you mentioned, mike is theguy who, like, taught me

(25:40):
everything I know about forceplates in the beginning.
Like he was the guy that was myfire hose and I was just
fortunate enough to be there atthe time and get as much
information from him and DATischler and Terry rolls and all
those great guys James lightswas another one that was like
critical to me early on.
Uh, learned a ton from James.
Um, but, like the these, whatwe're trying to do, that the

(26:03):
people that are in the forceplate space who are contributing
to the messaging, like allwe're trying to do is go hey,
believe it or not, these guyslike back in the day they had
way more right than they hadwrong.
But if you actually take whatwe've learned now and add that
with what they had holy smokes,man, like it opens up like a
whole can of worms and like thisgets way easier.
But when we choose to like buryour head in the sand and

(26:26):
pretend like gravity's not areal thing and ground reaction
forces don't exist, like dudeit's, it's tough to play golf
that way right, yeah, no, it's.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
Uh, you know we fought that, fight you and I.
You know it's interesting.
Um, you know it's interestingthat people I don't know if it's
they don't believe it, but theywant to be.
Can I tell you what I think?

Speaker 1 (26:52):
it is and I honestly tell you what I think it is and
tell I know I sound like I got asmart ass tone right now, but
like I, I promise I'm not tryingto be like weird.
I honestly think this is theproblem with our industry.
Our industry, because it is sobased in kinematic qualities, is
incapable of separatingpressure from mass.

(27:14):
The minute you start talkingabout pressure moving around,
they start moving their spinearound.
No, no, no, we're not talkingabout moving mass around, we're
talking about pressure and likeit's.
It's comical to me at how manypeople are like yeah, and they,
they like.
My favorite example of this islike I want I get so many like
people sending me videos, wanthelp, and they're trying to do

(27:36):
the Mayo thing Right.
And the Mayo thing isn't athing.
The Mayo thing is just like hey, like it's impossible to hit
one fat if you're steep, becauselow points in front of the ball
, not behind it, right.
So like he's got a good pointthere.
If you hit it fat a lot, maybequit trying to be shallow and
try steep, because that mightactually work out for you.
So the thing is is when you lookat what Joe is saying there,

(28:01):
he's talking really aboutgetting pressure left and that's
what he demonstrates.
And that's what he shows and,yes, I understand that you see
people's heads go left, but theygo left, they don't start left
and stay left video.
They've got all of their massJason stacked over top their

(28:22):
lead side and then they wonderwhy they just keep knife in the
ground because they can't movelow, point right.
Because they've got pressurestacked on the left side but no
pivot and now we create way toomuch lean into the ball.
So it's just like when peoplehear pressure, they think mass,
and when they hear mass, theythink pressure.
And we've got to do a betterjob as an industry, like
clarifying, I think, what we'retalking about, because it does.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
It confuses the hell out of everybody right, yeah, no
, I, that's a great point the,you know, just the, I 100 agree
that you know, with more peopleactually understanding the
uhetics, right, which we'retalking about now, this, you
know, force, pressure, torque,with more people understanding

(29:08):
that, I think you know thatcreates a great opportunity to
clarify some of these things,because you know pressure, you
know, isn't weight, it can bepressure, can be, you know, a
representation of weight, um, oryou know better, better term

(29:28):
like center of mass location canline up with our center of
pressure, but not necessarilyRight.
But, yeah, just theunderstanding, some of these
terms like um, you know, youknow cause, you know we talk
about weight shift and, butpeople always conflict or they
always, you know, buttress thosetwo together weight shift and

(29:48):
pressure, and and you know weneed to have a better
understanding of that.
And you know what is pressure,you know, ok, weight is this,
but in reality what it is, it's.
You know the more appropriateterm or the more applicable term
is center of mass, right, andand then you know how the forces

(30:09):
, uh, you know sort of dictatesome of these elements, right,
but I, I a hundred percent agreethat, um, and that's, I think,
a source of the misinformation.
And then other people are, youknow, intentionally, you know,
trying to.
You know, maybe they sort ofunderstand it, maybe they don't,
but they are so ingrained intheir own philosophy that

(30:32):
they're not willing to opentheir mind to uh, I got a good
one for you.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
They shall remain nameless.
I will not mention their namefor any amount of money on this
podcast.
But I had somebody reach out tome and they said, hey, you're
the force plate expert and Iwant your opinion.
And I said, okay.
They said I've owned allsystems and none of them work

(30:57):
and I don't understand whythey're all junk.
None of them work.
And I don't understand whythey're all junk.
And I said wait a minute, whatall systems?
And he literally named me everyforce plate system, 3d dual
force plate system that there isin the marketplace and he's
legitimately had them all andsent me a picture of all of them
together, Like he, I guess, isa collector, so he sends me his

(31:19):
data to look at because I'mconfused as to how they're all
wrong.
And his interpretation was isbecause his forces were late,
they weren't lined up with thevideo.
He thought that, like hisforces should happen during this
point in the swing.
So he was like trying to take asingle measurement or an

(31:40):
impulse peak at a time in thevideo.
And because his were reallylate, he thought that the system
was like ill-timed and notworking correctly.
So I mean, like this is whatwe're dealing with.
Man is like you know it's it'sreally complex man Like I, love,
love, love, love.
I have people all the time thatcome in and like I want to help
people understand better andsometimes I think you got to

(32:02):
reset people a little bit.
So, like people will get allwound up about the force plates,
right, like they can't wait toget on the force plates gotta
get on the force plates, forceplates, force but it's going to
solve all the problems.
And then, like I let them geton the force plates and then I
hit like you know, capture,whatever I have to do, depending
on which system I'm and thenlike it pops it up on the screen
for them.
I go, ok, there's force plates,and they're like, look at it

(32:24):
for a minute and they're like,well, I don't, I don't get it
and I'm like it's not the answer.
It just tells us kind of partof what's going on, but it
doesn't provide like a you needto do this, like I think.

(32:46):
So industry really suffers themost is that our industry
actually believes what we selland we think we can distill
everything down to one thoughtor one data point.
And the thing that I always tellpeople is like when they ask me
to do my force plate trainingbecause I do force plate
training with a lot of coaches,when they ask me to do this with
them, they're like, hey, likecan we just skip over the graph

(33:07):
part?
I don't, I don't want to readthe graphs.
And I tell people all the time,man, like you have to read
those graphs, and not only doyou have to be able to read a
singular graph, but you need tobe able to compare that singular
graph to the correspondingother graph that makes this
motion kind of happen.
And like you have to read themusic through the graphs.
And that's just really complex,man, like I know that people are

(33:30):
like, well, you can't explainthat to a three-year-old.
Well, can you explain to athree-year-old why the sky's
blue?
Because I can, but they'reprobably going to tune me out
when I get into, like talkingabout water vapors and like UV
rays and things like that.
But at the same time, jason,like what we're talking about
isn't something that's overlysimple, it's actually something
that's pretty complicated.
But if we understand it andtake the time to understand how

(33:54):
that applies to us, then weactually have a chance of
learning it and mastering it andbeing able to execute it.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, no, I fully agree.
It's interesting, and that'swhere I think I've been lucky
enough to have my smart-to-moveplates.
They're great, by the way.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
I like them.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yeah, so I have the first to the market with the
portable plates that are totallywireless, they don't need to be
wired, they operate with iOS,where you and I could take those
, the mobile plates, anywhere,like from the bay to the range,
wherever easy setup, and suchrange, wherever easy setup, and

(34:43):
such and.
And you know, along with allthat, which is great, but the
you know the graphicalrepresentation.
You know we can do the.
You know the typical graphswhere we have a X axis and Y
axis and we can see, you knowwhat's happening in the graph
page.
But they, you know they wentone step further and provided a
dashboard.
Look for people that you knowmay be challenged on the graph
side.
And but again, you know topresent that data to your player

(35:05):
and even like a 3D vectorrepresentation, like, okay, this
is what the forces are doing,the magnitude is how big.
You know this, this, thisvector, is the angle it
represents.
We could spin that avatar in360 degrees.
You know, having these toolswith the system are really

(35:28):
helpful in, as you mentioned,making these complex things that
are happening kinetically alittle more understandable for
the player.
Right, and bringing thatinformation you know down to
their level can be challenging,but again, I think, with these
robust tools that is provided inthe software, it's really

(35:50):
helpful to the player.
You know countless times whereI've, you know, presented them.
You know, instead of in thegraphical way, I'll present them
in the dashboard or I'llpresent them in the, you know,
the 3D avatar mode and even kindof understanding what's
happening with the forces.

Speaker 1 (36:08):
I just think you got to walk people through it.
I get that people.
You know I mean Dr Joe Lacaze,I think is amazing, for Rotex
Motion does amazing stuff andlike Joe's always like kind of
tell me.
He's like, well, can you pointto it?
You know what I mean.
Like that's his big thing is.
You know, as a doctor ofchiropractic you know he can

(36:29):
explain the body way better thanI can, but like he's always a
big point to it.
And the thing is is like I wantpeople to be able to point to
it and then I want them to knowthat this isn't their collarbone
but this is like theirsternoclavicular and it's like
kind of important because it'sthe beginning of the arm.
But people are like, well, youtalk that way to like sound
smart and make people feel dumband it's like no, I'm just

(36:51):
calling it exactly what it'sbeen agreed to be called by the
medical community Because likeif somebody writes sterno
whatever in their notes insteadof sternoclavicular, if they
Google that they can look it upand it points to the thing I
mean to say.
So it's like I just feel likewe need to do a better job

(37:12):
within the coaching space ofallowing for things to evolve.
And it's just.
Golf is a very traditional game.
You know that.
I know that we love our historyin golf.
It's a very traditional game.
You know that.
I know that, like we love ourhistory in golf, it's a very old
game.
But it's like man, like theinstruction doesn't have to be
like this hero worship stuff,because so-and-so said this, we
have to do it this way foreverand ever.
So-and-so wrote that book backin the 50s and they didn't even

(37:34):
have freaking cameras, man.
So, like you know, they werereally talking about a lot of
feelings which, as we know I'mnot saying feelings aren't real.
They're very real to the personexperiencing them.
However, they may not be asaccurate as you might otherwise
assume Like.
So I just, I mean, I appreciate,what you guys did, man Like I

(37:55):
can't do.
Did you really like?

Speaker 2 (38:01):
basically just kind of like walk out there and win
your first world title yeah, myfirst time that I, you know,
stepped on the tee at the worldchampionship, you know there's a
qualification process, right.
So you back in, you know, thisheyday of log drive and or you
know, kind of modern log driveas I call it, or you know kind
of modern long drive as I callit.
That's like 1995 going forward,because this is where we've had

(38:23):
, you know, mass participation,mass organization of the sport
and a true venue to compete in.
Prior to that it was, you know,they had, there was
championships like the ChryslerNational Long Drive they would
do in conjunction with the PGAChampionship, and so there was

(38:43):
sort of a framework for the longdrive.
But 1995 going forward, that'ssort of the modern age of long
drive, where drive because Remaxwas, you know, an international

(39:05):
organization, right, the Remaxagent would build a day where
maybe invite some manufacturersto come out and display their
product, do like hot dogs andpop for the kids in conjunction

(39:26):
with this long drive.
But again, it was a marketingopportunity for the agents.
But they would embrace that and, you know, build this
connection with Remax long drive, which was the title sponsor,
and you know, all the waythrough from these local
competitions, you know, you know, eventually, worldwide, right,
the, the REMAX agents embracedit, and then so you go from the

(39:46):
local competition.
If you finished in the topechelon of the local, you went
to the regional competition.
You know it's back.
Then, you know, we, if you lookat participation numbers, it's
interesting because people willsay, well, you know, back when
you started.
At participation numbers it'sinteresting because people say,
well, back when you started,it's really growing.
And I'm like, well, I don'tknow man, we had 15,000 people

(40:06):
trying to qualify for the OpenDivision back when I was winning
these championships, 96, 97, 98, 99, 2006.
We had pretty much all thoseyears more than 10,000 people
that pegged it up and thoughtthey could be a world champion,
right, and, and now you knowthere's been a lot of things
happen in the sport where youknow there's been ownership

(40:29):
changes in the event from thegolf channel and then they sort
of dropped it and then gf uh,sports and entertainment has
purchased it and they've ran itthe last couple years and
they're they're finding, and youknow, cutting their teeth in
this, in this new aspect to them.
They've not been involved ingolf before.
But to your question, I wentthrough the local one, the

(40:51):
competition, then I went to theregional and back then the
regional ones were like regionalones were like they're killer.
And I remember it was Utah,nevada, colorado, arizona, new

(41:13):
Mexico.
So all the best guys thatqualified from those States came
to Utah for the regional and wehad 120 guys.
They took three spots.
So that's you.
You know that's a really shittymonday qualifier on the pg.
Yeah, that's not good yeah yeah,uh, you know, three for 120 or
120 for three, however you wantto phrase it right.
So, uh, maybe four spots backthen.
So I qualified through that way.
The first time I got to theworld championship, I I didn't

(41:35):
know how I'd fare, right like Iknew I.
You know I hit pretty goodagainst all the guys in those
states that I had just mentionedand you know I just I thought I
could do well and but you know,I won every round all the way
through, had the longest driveof the semi-final, had the
longest drive of the competitionand then, uh, I was the last.

(41:56):
Uh, for for many years we did itin a shootout format Once you
got through all the eliminationrounds at the World Championship
, where we would start withanywhere from 64 to 196 players,
and then you get down to thefinal eight and then it was a
random draw, one through eight.
You hit your six shots and thelongest guy won.

(42:18):
It's a little different nowwhere you know it's.
You know there's these roundRobins where you have 16 guys
that will hit.
You know each guy will hitagainst all the other
competitors Although there wasfour on the tee and such but in
the shootout fashion.
I was the last competitor tohit in that first world
championship, 1996.
My third, second or third ball,I, I beat everybody else.

(42:42):
So you know, shut it down afterthat.
And um, 1997, that first yearwas in Las Vegas, 1997.
Uh, they had moved thecompetition to Mesquite, nevada,
and again, you know that Ididn't, you know, like I, you
know I, I won the year beforebut everybody was saying, oh,

(43:03):
this little Canadian guy,there's no way he has a chance.
No one's repeated since youknow, evan Big Cat Williams, in
like 75, 76, and that you know,almost 20 years ago, and I came
back and I hit it over 400 inevery round and established new
record for the finals at 412yards.
New record for the finals at412 yards.

(43:26):
Uh, you know.
Then won again in 1998, 99 lostby a yard in 2000.
So almost had five in a row.
Yeah, and you know, in fact, inmajor long drive competition,
um, it's pretty pretty,something that I'm very proud of
1472 days without a loss insanctioned long drive
competition.
So that was, you know, comingup and I finished second Right.
So you know that that span from1996 to 2000, the competition,

(43:53):
until that last ball was hit, Ihadn't had a loss in, at the
highest level of competition,the sanctioned world long drive
competition right so that'scrazy, like how I know.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
so if, if you're not able to watch this on our
youtube channel and you're justlistening to the podcast, uh, I
implore you, if you want to seewhat like working out will do
for you, check out, just go togoogle and type Jason Zubak and
like you're going to see somebig old guns.
Like Jason is a very, very fitguy and takes pride in it.

(44:26):
But like I'm curious like howmuch of when you were kind of at
the peak of your kind of power,like how much time were you
spending, you know, thinkingabout like club delivery and
ballistics of the ball and allof that kind of science stuff
that we would kind of bethinking about now, and how much

(44:47):
of the time was actually justspent on like building your body
in a way to where you just feltlike you could go out there and
make it happen.
Like I'm curious about that andyour approach to that whole
kind of bit back then and yourapproach to that whole kind of
bit back then.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Yeah, back then.
It's actually similar to, as wetalked about, having robust
tools and all the technology andall the information we have
today, but it's very similar towhat I did back then.
I still think about it in verysimple terms.
Okay, I have a physical bucket,so this is physical.
How's my physical capacity,right?

(45:22):
That's mobility, stability,balance, strength, power, speed.
You know, are those thingsoptimized?
You know what do I have to dobetter to be, you know, the best
that I can be within thatphysical bucket?
Okay, so that's that's.
You know, our physical capacity, right?
And this is exactly the way Ithink about it nowadays too.

(45:42):
And then the next one is ourtechnical bucket.
Okay, what do I have to dotechnically to hit the golf ball
as fast or, you know, generateas much clubhead speed as I can,
deliver it appropriately theway I want to deliver it with
center face contact?
What do I have to dotechnically?
And then the third one isequipment.
Right, we want to optimizeequipment, and you know we could

(46:02):
go down a whole bunch ofdifferent paths, but that's how,
you know, I approached it backthen.
That's how I approach it now.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
How much did your driver change during that run?
Did you change significantly,or did it pretty much stay the
same, or did it pretty much staythe same.

Speaker 2 (46:20):
Yeah, so when I first started like I qualified with
just a Calilay off the rack,great big Bertha with a stock
shaft at X, and then at thatregional competition where all
the winners you know Utah,nevada, colorado, arizona, new
Mexico were at, I started seeingall this.

(46:41):
You know longer stuff,different shaft brands, and I
was exposed to one called, youknow, aldula had one at the time
, a shaft.
Harrison was a big player inthe market at the time where
they made a great shaft.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
I still think that Harrison shaft is a good one man
.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
Oh yeah, no, they, they use really, um, you know,
just to digress a second.
So if we look at, you know,shaft technology, is is amazing,
and the companies that do it.
Obviously we're looking atFujikura, you know, like the,
the Velocor technology, like theVentus line has, you know,
amazing success across all tours.
We look at graphite design, um,design, um, you know, with you

(47:23):
name, the company and, uh, youknow, we could go down.

Speaker 1 (47:26):
you know, aldo is still making great stuff, the,
oh you, mitsubishi, uh you knowyou're talking to a guy that's
got a uh, kinetics driver shaftthat's 40, 44 and a half.
It's not long or anything.
It's just like I love thatshaft in my driver and then I've
got a tpt 18 high in my threewood.
I love that thing.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
So like I mean, like the technology is crazy man
right, so that you know kinetics, as michael mentioned, that's
um patterson kinetics, orrebranded as kinetics now, um,
that's, it's a.
It's a great shaft.
It's sort of evolved throughlong drive, although they've had
it.
You know the fellow that ownskinetics.

(48:07):
He's actually had a lot ofinfluence in the shaft game very
, quite wide influence, but youyou wouldn't know that, but he,
he's a very intelligent guy, butthe kin Kinetics brand has
originated in long drive.
For sure, this is the shaft thatKyle Berkshire used, monica

(48:30):
Living, the world champion lastyear, many, many world long
drive championship wins.
The TPT shaft line, whereMartin borgmeyer won with 2022,
eddie uh won a master, you know,uh, the bulk of his now three
championships two, two of thosecame, or maybe even three with

(48:54):
the tpt, which, uh, is a reallygood performing shaft.
But, um, my point is that youknow it's about, ultimately
about material, like, whatmaterials are we using and in
what proportions?
Right, there's design of thatshaft, so how it's designed to
incorporate the things you knowlow torque, high kick point,
what have you right?

(49:14):
And then there's process how isthat shaft built?

Speaker 1 (49:17):
So all those things you know have by the way way,
here's a fun one for you, rightlike, and I bet you get this all
the time, but I I want to throwthis out there because I want
people to hear this more thanone at a time.
I get it all the time.
What shaft is that he used?
What shaft?
All that thing's got to be sostiff.
That thing's got to be this.
That dude.
They are like the whippiest,like ladies flex shafts.

(49:39):
You can imagine like.
It's not rebar and it's notwhat people think, man.
It's a different ball gamealtogether because, to your
point, it's now not about justtensile strength and like these,
like carbon fibers that theywere using, now they're using
all kinds of different materialsthat bends and flexes and snaps
out to straight.
The faster you swing like dude.

(50:00):
It's crazy what they're doinglike, but it's fun.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
Now right, right, I it's interesting because kyle
berkshires was the one thatstarted that in sort of 2019 um
in, you know, exposed the longdrive guys to this, where, up
until that point, guys wore howmany x's you had on your shaft
like a badge of honor.
Right, if you got five x, yougot four x, you three x, you're

(50:24):
weak.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
Two x man, you got no chances, were you?

Speaker 2 (50:28):
yeah, like the x's yeah, jamie sadowski and I were
about the same and jamie's uh,you know he won back-to-back
championships, one of the, youknow, pound for pound at 160
pounds.
I've seen Jamie back thenmoving at well over 225 ball
speed in that 2009 time framewhere he won back-to-back.

(50:52):
He had a large string of top 10finishes in a row.
He was almost unbeatable, as Iwas, for a stretch, but him and
I were kind of in that triple,you know, kind of maybe on the
slightly stiffer side of doubleX, right, so not crazy, but
other guys would be like five X,four X, but to your point.

(51:15):
So now there's this paradigmshift in stiffness where, you
know, we saw this in theconsumer market with Autoflex,
was the first one to come tothat market, where it's a very
flexible shaft Even, you knowthey have some speed
recommendations based on, youknow, sort of your current club
head speed.
It's a very whippy shaft.

(51:44):
You know, somewhere in thatorder of you know, like regular
or softer than regular, toladies flex to senior flex.
You know this very, very softshaft and you know, with the
technology we have now to, youknow, make that shaft.
In yesteryear, that shaft wouldbe tough to make because we
didn't have a chance to controlthis twisting or the torque of
that shaft.
But now with the materials, themanufacturing process, the

(52:07):
design, you know we can do thesethings.
You know, and you know theshaft, that Eddie Fernandez won
his third world championshipthere.
It's the 21 high of the TPTline that one would be
classified as a know in thesenior flex category.
But you know, eddie can bringthat at 150 plus miles an hour
and still square that up and uh,the.

Speaker 1 (52:28):
It's interesting which I don't think you guys
ever get enough credit for, likeI.
I don't think you guys.
It's funny, you mentioned jamie.
I watched jp.
Uh, I watched jamie at tSugarloaf like hit driver six
iron into four, par four, parfives, and like that's just what
he did, you know, likeeverything to him was just like
it was, but he hit it straightLike Jamie could play, you know

(52:52):
what I mean.
Like he wasn't, like heprobably wasn't quite to where
he needed to be, to like have atouring career and all that
stuff, but like he could play ata very, very high level, no
doubt, and like you guys can hitthe ball straight.
And the thing that's crazy to meis like everybody thinks they
need this stiff shaft to get theface under control.
But in reality, man, I think somany people are playing shafts

(53:15):
that are way too stiff, they'reway too heavy, and because they
can't act upon that shaft, theysacrifice what they're doing
with the ground bodyrelationship, trying to create
some loft to get the ball up inthe air.
And I think that's the worstthing that happens to juniors is
.
I think we immediately movethem into stuff it's way too
heavy, way too stiff, and thenthey never get a chance to learn

(53:35):
how to build speed from theground up because the club is
just yanking on them the wholetime because it weighs too much.
It's the worst thing.
Like dude, everywhere I go I'mI'm almost kind of, oh boy, here
we go.
So like everywhere I go, manand I know you see this a bunch
too but like everywhere I go, Isee these kids, and when I say
kids I mean like people whohaven't got done growing yet

(53:57):
right, so they still lookchildlike and like dude.
They're making like 110, 115,120 miles of clubhead speed,
which seems great on paper, but,dude, their body's not anywhere
close to being prepared forthat.
And then they're just tearingup that trail labrum in their
hip like nobody's business.
And it's really like we've gotto get a hold of young people

(54:19):
and get them to realize thatit's it doesn't matter that you
create the same speed as ScottyScheffler at 16 years of age.
Like that isn't like the X's onthe shaft man.
Like it doesn't make you abetter golfer.
Like we've got to learn how tolike build this stuff Right.
And you know, shaft is a hugething, it's a big piece of that
right Loft.

(54:41):
That's enough.
I'm so glad that we're out ofthe dark ages of everybody
playing a five-degree driver,thank God.
Right, and that definitely camefrom the long drive side of the
equation.
But I just think you're right,man.
I think so much of it.
You know when you.
I mean there's companies nowusing ground reaction forces to
pair up.
Kind of what your pressuretrace looks like to the shaft,
and I think that's really smartLike that.

(55:04):
What your pressure trace lookslike to the shaft, and I think
that's really smart Like thatmakes way more sense to me than
trying to match it off howsomebody looks like they're
hitting it that day.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
Right, yeah, no, it's a, I think.
All good points and yeah, it's,it's.
It's interesting that's softperformance category.
You know we can find manyexamples in it and I think a lot
of it does come from the longdrive guys.
But again, for the averageperson, hey, why not try it?
You know we've got Autoflex,We've got FreeFlex, we've got,

(55:29):
you know, barty Adams, bgt, Ibelieve it is.
They've got a great product.
Mitsubishi's got an equivalentproduct Acura.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
They just don't get their day in the spotlight
though, jason, because they'reall.
You know I, for better or worseand I don't want to plug
anybody, but you know I I usethem here in Ann Arbor, michigan
, for some of our clients, butyou know, club champion kind of
is finally like fighting backfor the consumer, in my opinion,
just a little bit, becauseinstead of going into your local

(56:05):
golf course or your local youknow big box store that sells
golf clubs and being pigeonholedinto what the manufacturers
want to provide you, you're ableto go in there and you're able
to mix and match and you're not,you know, kind of like fit into
a Titleist box or a TaylorMadebox or a PXG box.
Hey, if this shaft actuallyworks better for you, we can get
it to you.

(56:25):
So I think that where a lot ofthese companies man struggle so
much is that they're not in theproduct mix for the major OEMs,
and that's really, I think,disingenuous to the golfer,
because while we're talkingabout equipment and before I
forget this, if I'm you I can'tcall and I can't pronounce the
company, and I wish I could.

(56:45):
But whatever company is makingBryson's new irons like, if I'm
you I can't wait to call themLike I have already called, like
if I'm a high ball speed guyand like I'm listening to this,
and then when I say high ballspeed I mean like elite high
ball speed, not like you know,one 60, one 70, I mean like one
90 or one 80, one 90.

(57:07):
Okay, if we're in that category, it makes all the sense in the
world.
And what Bryson's talking aboutmakes all the sense in the world
, because the reason Cobracouldn't make Bryson what he
wanted is because Cobra has tomake golf clubs the way a major
OEM makes golf clubs.
They can't scale and 3D print,but this guy did and gave him
some bulge on the face and weknow that that makes a driver a

(57:30):
lot easier to find a fairwaywith.
Because you're old enough toremember what it was like with
the little persimmon heads man,like we didn't have as much, or
we had more of that bulge androll and that's how we kept it
going straight.
We didn't have as much, or wehad more of that bulge and roll
and that's how we kept it goingstraight.
And now we've kind of lost thatwith these flatter faces and
dude, when you're a high ballspeed player, the worst thing
you want is gear effect and byputting some bulge back on that

(57:50):
face, especially with an irondude, holy smokes.
Are you guys going to hit thatthing straight?
Like I think this opens up theworld for the high speed guys
and and like I'm surprised thatit hasn't taken off more.
And it I mean it doesn'tsurprise me because it's never
going to make it the market,because they can't produce this
way.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
Yeah, the Voda that Bryson-.

Speaker 1 (58:11):
Thank you, a Voda.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
Yeah, a Voda, yeah, so it's interesting.
I know Josh Koch, one of theelite log drive guys.
You know he's been in the top10 for the last number of years
and really hard worker, he'stried them, really likes them as
well.
You know it's that complexinterplay of where the center of
gravity is, you know.
And again, you know that hollowbody iron that Bryson's playing

(58:36):
.
You know we can move that CGback to, you know not driver
positioning, where we canactually benefit from some
potential ball to the role.
It'd be interesting to try it.
I'd like to see the, the date onit, like as far as off center
hits, and see dispersion wise,like you know, crank it up at.
You know with Gino Perrette atgolf labs and you know, put

(59:00):
these to the test versus.
You know a blade, a CB, youknow maybe even some of the.
You know like a tailor-made.
You know hollow body iron andsee, you know where that point
is right, like where you know wetake.
You know average, you know fiveiron speed of the average
player.
Then let's incrementally go upand see what it's doing on heel

(59:23):
and toe hits, right, um, yeah,yeah, I'd love to see the data
on it.
It's a.
You know bryson, he's alwaysgot a lot of good ideas.
Um, you know, I I was growingup a lot man.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
He says, yeah, he says a lot of smart stuff.
You know, like I I feel badbecause he was so young when he
got out there and you know hekind of had a bad case of like
foot and mouth there for alittle while.
But like he's really grown up,man, and I think the content he
puts out there is really smart.
It's really boiled down forkind of like the mass audience

(59:55):
and like, honestly, man, Ihaven't really seen him put out
too bad of information when he'stalking about the golf swing
and quite some time, like Ithink he's really doing the
industry a lot of favors rightnow.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
Yeah, no, no, the Bryson, he's an intelligent
fellow.
Yeah, I think you know he'scertainly, you know, has changed
his public image significantly,you know, through a number of
mechanisms to make himself more,you know, relatable, a number
of mechanisms to make himselfmore, you know, relatable to the
people and likable obviously.
And, yeah, I think you know alot of maturity and I think you

(01:00:29):
know that move to live wasreally good for him.
Just you know maybe not on theexposure side of things, but
just, you know, kind of freeinghimself up to be himself, right,
and and then concentrating onsome of the social media aspects
and you know kind of pursuingthe things that he wants to

(01:00:50):
pursue.
So I it's been, it's beeninteresting and you know a nice
evolution.
You know obviously his play is.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
but you know, winning us open at Pine pie hearse this
year was uh, I mean, there'svery few people that have
evolved golf equipment in a waythat he kind of is Um, I mean,
he really is a trendsetter and Iknow that he is not as popular
as tiger woods and doesn't pullthe same metrics, but like he

(01:01:18):
really does move the needle whenit comes to equipment and usage
of set equipment and like Imean, he's been doing it with
the one length from thebeginning, he's been doing it
with the jumbo grips, now he'sdoing it with bulge on the iron
faces.
Like I mean, the guy really isa different kind of thinker and
you know, I I just I think thatthat's what makes him him right

(01:01:38):
is the fact that he asked verydifficult questions and like
he's not satisfied until hecomes up with that answer.
So you know, I would I would beremiss to not say that I
honestly view what he didwinning that US Open with a
completely different golf clubthan anybody else in the field
golf club, than anybody else inthe field.

(01:01:59):
I think that that makes that USOpen pretty special.
Like to make that kind of beton yourself to go out there to
read.
Like I mean, dude, that takes alot of stones to step up there,
because if it doesn't work, man,you are going to get killed,
especially the way he's exposedon social media, I mean, they're
going to come for you in droves.

(01:02:19):
So for him to kind of make thatbet, kind of like he did with
the end range of motion stuffwith the first US Open, like for
him to kind of be learning andevolving, like I just look at
that and I go.
I think our industry shouldstrive for more of that.
I don't think that everybodyneeds to try to be Bryce and
DeChambeau, because that'sdefinitely not the route for
everybody to go.
However, I do think, like hiscuriosity man, I hope it's

(01:02:41):
infectious to the industrybecause I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Yeah, no for sure, he , you know he's, you know he's.
Went down a bunch of differentpaths that I think.
But ultimately, as we alludedto earlier, it's all about
performance, right, and hedoesn't make a change unless it
performs better.
For instance, you know, goingwith the crank driver and he's,

(01:03:06):
there's a lot of bulge and rollon the like his crank drivers,
and you know as we.
You know it was interesting, youknow, number of years ago I
remember reading that, well, thefaster player doesn't need, you
know, or like a flatter, youknow, because you know this
curvature on the face.

(01:03:26):
So for those that aren'tfamiliar, so we have curvature
generally.
You know this is excluding someof this.
You know some of thesecompanies that use, you know,
multi-locational curvature.
So generally the driver wouldhave a curvature from the toe to
the heel, which is called bulge, and then curvature roundness

(01:03:50):
from the crown to the sole rightand that is measured.
Toe to roll, yeah, so wemeasure that by the radius how
many inches?
The radius of a circle.
So if that radius is smaller,that curvature is more so.
But you know, bryson went tomore curvature in both those

(01:04:14):
planes and what I was getting tois that, you know, years and
years ago they I rememberreading an article from a very
smart club.
You know a designer and he saidwell, the faster player doesn't
need as much bulge and roll.
An article from a very smartclub.
You know a designer and he saidwell, the faster player doesn't
need as much bulge and roll.
But now I think we realize thatthe faster player, like bryson,
he is benefiting from morebulge and roll, right?

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
well, bryson's biggest problem is the same
problem that every fast guy hasthey, no matter how good you are
.
And look, I've seen all theInstagram photos of like tigers,
wear spots and all that stuff,but it is still a very wide spot
.
That's worn out.
It is not exactly on the samespot every single time.
So when you're talking aboutmoving equipment at you know the

(01:05:00):
speed that Bryson DeChambeaudoes, which is faster than any
other tour player.
When you start, like countingthe millimeters that you missed
the middle by, it becomes waymore like influential to what
the golf ball wants to do interms of some gear effect and
some things like that.
So you know, honestly, fromwhat I have read in the press

(01:05:23):
and that's all I'm quoting, likeis things I think I've read, so
bear with me.
But basically Cobra came outand they were like we can't make
the guy happy because he wantsthe ball to go straight when he
doesn't hit the middle of theface.
And then Bryson's going.
I understand the math and Iknow that we can put some bulge
on this face and I can hit itstraighter, right, and like,
basically, I think Cobra didn'twant to hear that.

(01:05:43):
So then bryson, being bryson,went and found a company that
would listen to him.
They put some bar.
I don't know if the company wasalready doing it or bryson took
the.
I don't know how that works.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
However, he got what he wanted and he obviously made
it work by winning a us open, soI think you just got to applaud
the guy for the effort, at thevery minimum right, yeah, yeah,
like I was involved with a lotof these projects, um with Cobra
, while Bryson was there, um insome way, shape or form to be

(01:06:19):
able to try and get him aproduct he was happy with, right
, so, uh, how do I phrase this?
Like it, it was verychallenging, like I know what
I'm doing with drivers becausethat's been my game.
For you know, I workedoriginally with Terry McCabe at
a Kushnet, one of the greatmetal wood designers.

(01:06:39):
Nine seven five D, nine sevensix R, nine seven five J, the
JVS, the LFE, 975d, 976r, 975j,the jvs, the lfe.
You know I've been involvedwith, you know, metal wood
design on the cobra side, the427, the 350, the uh, 450sz the
350, I think, was one of myall-time favorites oh yeah, yeah

(01:07:03):
, some good ones.

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
So a couple of those heads you mentioned from
Akushnet are real good heads too, man.

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
Those are small timers.

Speaker 2 (01:07:09):
Yeah, you know they switched me over to the Cobra
brand, so that 427 was a greatperformer.

Speaker 1 (01:07:14):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
You know the 450, it had a bit of phase progression
Guys that hit it.
That was a great driver.
And then you know S9, you knowthe double X speed or the X
speed from Cobra.
That driver was 10 to 12 yearsahead of its time just because
of the technology they put in.

(01:07:36):
It was a truly cup face driver,so the face sort of it wasn't a
face insert but it was a facethat actually was a cup.
That's where it was welded andthat has the potential to give
us some advantages with clubdesign, with velocity,
equalizing some of these spinelements, structural integrity

(01:07:58):
and then Speed Pro D, which wasone of the best performing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
That was a good driver.

Speaker 2 (01:08:04):
One of the prettiest heads.
Jamie Sadowski won his firstworld championship with that
head.
But you know one of myfavorites of all time, you know
just that pear-shaped block, youknow, very deep.

Speaker 1 (01:08:15):
The only problem with that driver for me was that,
like, any time you found it, ithad the yellow shaft right.
Am I getting this right?
It had the yellow shaft right.
So every time you found one bythe way, we're going back here,
ladies and gentlemen, becausethis is when you couldn't like
twist them apart they were gluedand they always had like an
extra stiff yellow shaft in themand I wasn't big enough and
strong enough to like swing thatshaft.

(01:08:36):
But I finally did find one withan EI 70 and, dude, I wore that
thing out.
Like I love that driver.

Speaker 2 (01:08:43):
No, no, that it's still one of my favorites and,
uh, you know I still pull it outonce in a while.
That was, um, you know one ofmy favorites, that that was
probably in that 2006 2007 timeframe.
Right, that was right aroundwhen I won my final open
championship, um, can you?

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
see the screen.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
Oh yeah, there it is the uh r7, super deep.

Speaker 1 (01:09:08):
Yeah, I got it I got it deep right here too, but I
play this quad all the time,dude.
Oh yeah, and here's the funnything, get this.
I told you I got some niceclubs.
So I got a qi 10, uh, ninedegree with the kinetic shaft in
it and I swear to, to God, thisdriver with this old graphite
design, stiff, flex, torque,turquoise thing puts up the

(01:09:31):
exact same numbers that my QI 10does.
It's crazy, but like I mean,it's to your point, man, like
the technology has been way, wayahead for a long time.
Like the legal limits one fivezero, it's been one five zero
for a long time.
Like the legal limits one fivezero, it's been one five zero
for a long time.
And it's like, well, how do welaunch it and spin it better?
Like that's basically whatwe're trying to do now, but in

(01:09:52):
terms of like creating smashfactor, like we can't create
more than one five zero oryou're playing with a driver.
That's illegal.

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
Right, yeah, the, uh, it's interesting that you know
some of the technology, like thepower bridge that Cobra has in
you know this current generationthan the previous as well, with
the.
You know, we're trying to make,you know, obviously, even if we
hit it off center, we're tryingto equalize spin, but we're
also trying to equalize velocityright, to make it forgiving.

(01:10:22):
But, uh, these, that powerbridge is, it works phenomenal.
Um on, if we have a low impacton the face, it's coming off,
you know, very quickly, almostas fast as center face contact
as where we tended to lose a lotof velocity before.
But again, you know, you knowit's.
You know this club aspect where, hey, let's try what's out

(01:10:45):
there, cause I, I, you knowthat's the easy button, we call
it a TPI.
You know, like how Staples hadthe easy button.
Yeah, that's the, the club isthe easy button If you have a
competent fitter with a robustselection of options.
Right, you know they need.
You need a selection of shafts,you need a selection of heads.
You know, I it's.

(01:11:06):
It's one of those things whereI could probably find you 10 to
20 yards.
I don't care who you are, Icould probably find you 10 to 20
if you want it Right, and thenyou know, obviously we need to
come to a consensus with.
You know accuracy and you knowthat whole blend.
But I could find you some speedfor sure, like if I you know
whether it's putting a one ofthe new shogun acro shafts in

(01:11:28):
with um.
You know a cobra dark speed lsor you know whatever
configuration.
You know a really good fitterthat's got a robust bag of tools
.
You know that's the easy buttonand just so.

Speaker 1 (01:11:43):
You know, I was a titleist staffer for like a long
time and now I'm like mr, likemiros and stuff like that.
But I started as a humbletitleist staffer for 10 years
and it was the cobra king ltdthat finally got me to go.
You know what?
I can't play titleist anymorebecause I just gained like 40

(01:12:03):
yards, right.
Oh yeah, killed that ltd dudebecause I used to overspin it
and that ltd man, like it, didnot spin, like that is one thing
that driver did not do that was, I think bryson's, probably his
favorite driver in the cobraline.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
You know he he really liked that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:23):
Uh, like you have to if you get one, by the way, it's
still a great driver.
If you spin it too much, the ltcan find you one.
There you're, you're going tobe able to find them, uh, but
they're not going to cost youthat much money.
But here's a trick, or here's atrick of the trade with that
particular driver.
It has a massive port in thesole of the club that you can
twist in and out, which is kindof cool until, like, it goes

(01:12:46):
loose on you and starts rattlingaround like it tends to do.
But if you take a littleloctite and put in there, it's
perfect and you never have thatproblem again.
So, just like king ltd.
Great driver, but you got toloctite it a little bit gotcha.

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
Yeah, no, it's that was.
You know that that was one ofone of my favorite ones of the.
You know the F9 still is agreat performer.

Speaker 1 (01:13:10):
I couldn't launch the F9.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
That's why I?

Speaker 1 (01:13:12):
never made the switch .
I couldn't launch it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:14):
And then that, that, the, the LTDX, that debuted.
So the, the lineage right nowis so dark speed.
There was Aerojet and thenprior Aerojet was LTDX.
And that one, you know, when itwas tested independently it was
very, very good, very accurate,quite fast.
You know that that was kind ofa, a really excellent design.

(01:13:37):
And then Aerojet, they went,hey, we're going to try to max
speed.
And you know, I test, I testeverything every year and the
Aerojet was the fastest, right,is it the most accurate?
You know, you know it doesn'thave the.
You know what we refer to, theMOI, moment of inertia number.
But you know it was super fast.
And then, with dark speed, theykind of got back to you know,

(01:14:00):
you know, still super fast, butagain, you know, with a degree
of.
You know, forgiveness too, and,uh, you know it's interesting
that.
You know I keep using that word, I should find a different word
.
But with club design it's, wecan make a fast driver, that's
not an issue.
We can make a forgiving driver,but the most challenging thing

(01:14:24):
is to make it fast and forgiving, because that's that.
That takes, you know, reallysignificant engineering, uh, and
and technology to be able to dothat.
So, um, you know the thing thatI?

Speaker 1 (01:14:38):
don't get either is like I mean and and look, cobra
title is tailor made ph, all ofthem.
They all make great stuff.
Everybody makes good stuff.
Now, like there's no room tohide anymore.
Like you're gonna get killed onsocial media, you're not gonna
be able to sell golf clubs.
Like everybody makes good stuff.
But like the thing that kills me, man, is like you're right.
Like we're constantly trying tobalance, like hey, can I find

(01:15:01):
the fairway when I need to andcan I hit it as far as I
possibly can.
Like I want to be able to doboth those things at the same
time all the time.
But like the problem thatpeople, I think, run into a lot
is they're like they always.
It's just human nature.
They default to the faster.
They never default to morestable.
They always default to morefast, right.

(01:15:22):
They always default to morefast, right.
And the thing that they don'trealize is like the fast that
they're choosing is like maybe amile an hour, maybe three, okay
, it's not really thatsignificant.
And the problem is is like wetalked about, they're not going
to hit the middle of the faceevery time, so they're not even
going to get that one to threeevery single time and, as a
matter of fact, they're probablygoing to get a little less,

(01:15:44):
because the reason they got theone to three to begin with is
because the driver's kind ofengineered for speed and not for
forgiveness in the first place.
So now they actually lose bychasing that extra little tiny
bit.
So like I think what you saidis really really important Like
hey, I can fit you and I cangive you 10 to 20 more yards,
but then we got to actually lookat that and go.
Is that like functional yardageor is that just extra yards

(01:16:07):
that you know you're going tohave to walk to get your ball
out of somebody's backyard?

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
Exactly, I guess, a good takeaway though for the
average person and even the moreaccomplished player.
You know, we always have ourbrand preferences, right.
But if we're going in for afitting and I think you know
nowadays with all the you know,you know my golf spy you've got
Rick shield, you have all theseresources where guys are
reviewing stuff all the time ofgo into a fitting with an open

(01:16:44):
mind, right, because you'regoing to have, you know, okay,
oh, I, I saw the ping G430 10K.
You know that one.
You know my golf spy said everydriver should be, every golfer
should be hitting that one.
Well, I don't know about that,but I would go in with an open
mind to try everything right,like the one of the one of the

(01:17:04):
most surprising drivers.
You know, I've had exposure tothe Japanese market.
I used to go over there fivetimes a year.
I love their club design, right.
We have these companies thatyou don't see.
You know Strixon's gotdifferent stuff, prgr's got
different stuff, mizuno, theyhave a brand called J-Beam.
They have all these cool brandsand they really they do a nice

(01:17:28):
job of building stuff, you know,and oftentimes very elegant, uh
, very beautiful golf clubs, andI I'm a big fan of design and
and such.
But what I my point is that, um,it's, you know it's about, you
know, getting something thatperforms right and um, the, you

(01:17:49):
know, srixon irons are have sometraction in the U S, but the
driver, you know, people may noteven know that they make a
driver, but I tried a driver.
Oh yeah, you know, one of themost pleasant surprises when I
tried the Mark V LS, right, youknow very well performing and
such.
But again, my point is goingwith an open mind, right, going

(01:18:13):
with open mind.
You know you got to know yourfitter, you got to trust the
fitter.
You know brand agnostic, hey,let's put the best thing in your
hands.

Speaker 1 (01:18:22):
And you know, and choose the thing.
I'm happy to say, jason, I meanthis I'm playing the best golf
of my life right now.
Like I've had a wonderfulsummer of playing golf, I've
shot under par a bunch of times,Like it's been great, it's been
wonderful.
I made a decision before thisgolf season that I had had
enough, Okay, so here's what Imean by that.

(01:18:46):
When you buy a golf club,typically the average person,
when you go into a golf storeand you buy a golf club, some
engineer that you have never met, not once in your life, is
trying to help you do somethingto a golf ball that you may or
may not need help doing.
But I have had enough of theengineers trying to influence
what my golf ball does.
So here's what I did.
I know me and I like the steelfiber I-95 shaft the best.

(01:19:10):
That's the shaft I play, I loveit and I'm not I'm not open for
discussion Like I'm sure youcan put something in my hands.
It's slightly better this wayor the other, but like overall
consistency and quality andaverage and what I'm going to do
.
This is the shaft for me.
And then order to set a mirrorone oh ones, and B's right, just
straight blades.
And everybody thought like Iwas having this huge, like ego

(01:19:30):
moment, like I'm going to playblades.
But really all I wanted waslike the basic construct of what
an iron is, which is basicallywhat a blade is right, like this
is the golf club and it'spurest form.
And then what I did is I wentover and I took the pitching
wedge, first one, and I wentover to the track man and I hit
it and I said 130, becausethat's how far I want my

(01:19:53):
pitching wedge to fly.
It was 130.
And you know what?
It flew 120.
And I was like darn it.
And then I tried again and Isaid 130 and 120 is what track
man said.
And then I said 130 and 120 iswhat track man said.
And then I said darn it.
And I tried a couple more timesand swung really hard.
I just couldn't make it go 130.
So then I went straight over tomy Mitchell offline machine and
I freaking bent the thing acouple of degrees and I went

(01:20:14):
over until a track man said whatI wanted it to say.
And you know what, like that inmy mind is how you fit golf
clubs.
Like I needed to go a number it.
How you fit golf clubs.
Like I needed to go a number.
It's all about how far thisball goes.
I like how it gets there, I canadjust, but I need this club to
make the ball go that far.
And like that's how I did it,man.

(01:20:37):
And like I had to find a shaft.
Obviously that works with wherethe CG is within that head,
yada, yada.
I know all that stuff.
However, like I think people getreally lost in the sauce and
thinking, like most people don'tneed 14 golf clubs, dude.
Like most people don't generatenearly enough clubhead speed to
ever need a five iron, fouriron, three iron high.
Like they don't need.
Like the three wood is the mostworthless club in the market.

(01:20:58):
That's why none of thesecompanies can sell them anymore
because like nobody can hit them.
And I'll let you on a secret Ifthe three wood is your favorite
club in your bag, maybe writeit into your will for your
children because, like, ifyou've got a three, would you
love keep it.
If there's one club that's oh,jason's smiling right now if
there's one club that's alwaysthe oldest club in the bag on
tour, jason, it's always thethree.

(01:21:19):
Am I wrong?

Speaker 2 (01:21:20):
no, yeah, yeah, fighting a good three was like a
unicorn I know man, you know to.
Yeah, you know there's beensome great ones.
You know I I did, you know an xon our tech.

Speaker 1 (01:21:32):
That was the last great three wood.

Speaker 2 (01:21:34):
Oh yeah that that sonar face, deep face, three
wood was a great one.
That v steel taylor made the oh, that's a good one.

Speaker 1 (01:21:42):
That's a good one.

Speaker 2 (01:21:42):
The v steel yeah, the old calloway s2 h2, one right
like the.
I have one right here, look,look, look yeah, it was almost
as uh, uh, about the same size.
You're gonna laugh dude.

Speaker 1 (01:21:53):
Look, I didn't have to go far.
Look, we got the, the callowayheavenwood, number seven.
Oh sorry, let me get on camerathere.
There you go, look at that withthe original shaft.
Nonetheless, yeah, and then,even better, you didn't think I
had this, I got the divine ninebaby oh, there you go that with
the original uh silver shaftyeah how about that?

(01:22:17):
Those are great man.

Speaker 2 (01:22:18):
I don't know for sure the uh, but yeah, the three
woods.
Uh, your cobra's made some goodones too.

Speaker 1 (01:22:28):
I've had some really good Cobra 3-woods over.
The Exotics made an entirecompany out of making a good
3-wood Right.

Speaker 2 (01:22:31):
Tour Edge, I mean they really did Dude.

Speaker 1 (01:22:34):
That's what they those Bazooka 3-woods and those
Tour Edge Exotic 3-woods back inthe day everybody had one of
those things because they had a3-wood that was good that
everybody could hit.

Speaker 2 (01:22:48):
Interesting.
You mentioned that most peopledo not need a full bag to play
golf, which I 100% agree with.
I was having a conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:22:58):
Then they could walk too.

Speaker 2 (01:23:01):
You could take a Sunday bag right.
A female player the other dayshe's like well, you know, just
to your point.
You know, when club head speedmay not be that fast, every club
goes about the same distance,right?
So you know we need somethingthat could get it in the air and

(01:23:22):
something that goes a littlemore linear, right?

Speaker 1 (01:23:25):
But this is what kills me, though.
Like there are options forpeople, right, and you're
talking about like a good fitter.
So here's like my version of agood fitter.
It's like I got somebody inthere who doesn't have a lot of
clubhead speed.
They know they can't hit thefive iron far enough, so they're
like, ok, give me the fivehybrid.
They're not going to hit thefive hybrid any farther either,
jason, because they're not goingto hit it any higher.

(01:23:45):
So like the problem is is thatperson really does need like a
nine wood?
And like people scoff at thatand like, oh, but Dustin
Johnson's been playing with aseven wood for years, and like
there are more seven woods ontour right now than you can
possibly imagine, cause thoseguys love the fact they can just
hit it straight up in the airand it's going to land like you
know elephant crap when it hitsthe green right, yeah, no, it's

(01:24:09):
uh, it's about performance,right, and yeah, who care?

Speaker 2 (01:24:11):
who cares?
Right, uh, the uh, but I, but I, I do think you know, in the
fitting aspect, you know,especially with the wedges, even
like having somebody that'sknowledgeable about wedge
fitting, you know can reallyhelp you out.
Um, in the aspect of you knowturf interaction and you know

(01:24:33):
just selecting a product that'sgoing to perform the best for
you is going to work every time.
No, because you know we're notall.
You know, phil Mickelson, we'renot all gifted in that respect,
but you know making the bestchoice for you.
You know, in the short gamestuff and it's interesting, it's
noteworthy that I was workingwith Mike Weir at the Rogers

(01:24:58):
charity classic on some specificstuff with the force plates and
you know typical things thatmike would ask me through the
years and I I sort of shared myphilosophy with him and I think
you would agree like, obviouslythere's, you know, essentially,
four different swings in in thegolf swing.
There's, you know, our puttingaction, which is totally

(01:25:21):
different than everything else.
There's our finesse swing andthese need to be siloed right
Like they're.
You know people will oftenthink there's just one golf
swing.
The driver swing is the same aseverything else and it's not.
So.
We have our, we have our.
You know the the puttingtechnical aspect.
We have the short game finesseswing, we have our general iron

(01:25:44):
swing and then we have driverswing and all these differ in,
you know, a number of differentvariables and I think,
understanding that, where, uh, Ithink you would agree when I,
you know, when I work with thechampions, tour players and any
accomplished player that's over40, that really hasn't done any

(01:26:05):
long drive stuff.
What they tend to do, I thinkyou would agree, is that you
know it's this, this swing in abarrel.
Right, they don't have muchlateral, they just turn.
They're really good at creatingthis.
You know vertical torque, youknow this rotational.
You know movement with the body.
They don't go up and down verymuch, they don't produce much.
You know vertical force, or youknow as much as you know this

(01:26:28):
younger generation, but that'show anybody over 40, that's that
, that was the teachingphilosophy I think you would
agree.
Right, like the, oh yeah, lesslateral, more rotational, not
much vertical, but you know to,you know if we're looking at
maximizing some of our, you knowthe distance element,
especially with the driver.
You know we to.
You know if we're looking atmaximizing some of our you know

(01:26:48):
the distance element, especiallywith the driver, you know we
have to.
You know that swing works greatas a universal swing.
But you know, if you want to goin a specific direction with
more distance and you know youknow on the finesse side, as the
things we work on, like VictorHovland and such, you know
there's there's specificelements that we need to modify.
You know, to maximize thosesilos that we have our swing in

(01:27:09):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:27:10):
I got a great example of this.
I just worked with one of thetour players that I work with
and he has just had the bestseason driving that he's ever
had in his career.
He's been out there for sevenyears, just had his best career
ever driving the golf ball andalso paired that with his worst

(01:27:31):
scrambling year ever.
So it hit the driver Absolutelygreat and the chipping went to
hell.
So we just had a big campbecause obviously season just
ended, we just had a big campand we're kind of talking about
things and he's like, look, man,before we go any farther, like
we got to sort out like what'sgoing on with the chipping,

(01:27:51):
because like I barely can makecontact right now and I was like
cool, I was like let's do it.
So, anyway, like I take himover, I got this like really
tight lie here at measured golf,uh, where my putting green is,
and I'm making them chip offthat Right, and like the guy
literally is belating every balland this is a tour card like
his one-on-tour, like it's agood player, and he literally is

(01:28:14):
belating chip shots and I'mlike what are you doing?
And he's like I don't know, man, and I was like walk me through
it.
So he's like, yeah, man, he'slike I've just kind of you know,
I've been hitting the driver sowell that I kind of took that
setup and I kind of have appliedit to everything.
And I was like, okay, well,tell me more, right.
And he's like, yeah, and he'slike I'm just really trying to

(01:28:36):
feel like I push away from theground with my left foot, like I
do with my, because it's reallyhelped my driver.
And I'm like, yeah, no doubtman.
And he's like, uh, what do youthink?
And I was like I think we gotway too much impulse, dude.
Like he literally couldn't getthe club to the ball because he
was pushing with so muchvertical force that it was to

(01:28:58):
use a james lights termcartwheeling himself backwards
right and moving low point backwith it because the pressure
moves with it.
So it's just like.
It's just like it's reallyinteresting.
Because, like you would think,like if I told that story about
like a normal golfer, you'd belike, oh, that makes all the
sense in the world, but we'retalking about a very
accomplished player, you know,finished inside the top 100 on
the on the money list this yearon tour.

(01:29:19):
So I mean it's.
It's just really interestinghow people try and this is the
industry in a nutshell, rightLike we try to take one thing
and say that it works in everysituation, but the one thing
that we do know about golf isthat X doesn't always equal Y,
and like that's the complexityof golf, right, is you don't
have to have perfect groundreaction forces to be a perfect

(01:29:40):
golfer, and there isn't aperfect golfer, so like there's
some variability.
That is just inherently goingto be required yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:29:49):
Um, I think we could apply that.
You know where we see rorymcelroy.
You know, arguably or not,arguably probably the best
driver of the golf ball you know, since jack, I think it's
bryson now.
Honestly, I mean, I thinkbryson's replaced him yeah, you
know, but you know rory's a veryone of the top drivers of golf

(01:30:12):
all for sure, yeah, right but Ithink the things he does that
makes him this very potentdriver and that, as one of his
top assets, doesn't do himfavors with wedges, if you know
what I mean like.
So you know this, you know thehis loading the trail side, you

(01:30:35):
know the, you know the massmovement combined with his
pressure movement and the forcesthat he creates to do the thing
with his do the things with thedriver that he does that makes
him a potent driver, creates notan issue but a challenge with
the wedges, as where you see aplayer that does things a little

(01:30:59):
differently than him, likeScotty Scheffler, obviously you
and I talked about.
You know it's, it's, it's uh,there's a lot of people that
make a try to figure out whyScotty Scheffler has that rear

(01:31:19):
foot action and you and I talkedabout this His pressure's
really left, right, exactly, buteverybody from everything from
oh he's got a hip injury to likeI've seen the most bizarre
stuff and I'm just like he's areally potent lateral mover.
He pushes like really hard.
Here's a way to replicateScotty Scheffler's swing.
You know, take a long iron,even take your driver, put all

(01:31:43):
your weight.
Or you know, put all all your.
You know, center your mass overyour lead foot.
Now take a swing.
See what that lead foot does.
It does his exact action.
So he's a really potent moverlaterally.
He just de-weights that.
That you know he, he, he gets,you know so much force, uh,
produces so much force towardsthe target.

(01:32:03):
You know he's such a potentlateral mover that he de-weights
that back foot and that motionof the back foot.
It's a counter movement tosince it's really not on the
ground.
It's countering the rotationalaspects he's creating downstream
in a swing and it's a countermove to what he's doing Right.

Speaker 1 (01:32:25):
You've been to Augusta national, I'm sure Right
.

Speaker 2 (01:32:28):
I have.

Speaker 1 (01:32:28):
Yeah, yeah, so you know how they have the new
tournament range.
That's you know.
I'm sure you've been thererecently.
But like they have the newtournament range and then they
have like the caddy house downthere right next to the range,
and then there's the giant shadetree right there and then like
vj's always down there in theshade all day long banging
drivers all day right.
Like you know what I'm talkingabout.
But like a couple years ago Iwas down there and like all the

(01:32:51):
guys were down there kind ofhanging out in the shade and
like it kind of happens thistime I've seen it happen more
than once but like somebody hitsa drive and then somebody else
hits a drive, and then somebodyelse hits a drive, and now all
of a sudden we're gonna like seewho can hit the drive the
farthest.
And like these guys were likehanging out on the range at
augusta national just bangingdrivers and like one thing like
really stood out to me isthere's different ways to get it

(01:33:15):
out there and like the guysthat are truly long like hit it
real high off the face and itgoes forever.
Like and then there's a lot ofguys out there who are a little
undersized, who kind of wind itup a little bit more and it
takes out quite a bit lower andkind of like eventually gets
there and kind of needs a littleassistance on the rollout and

(01:33:36):
like that's kind of like thedifferences right and what makes
players.
And like one of those playersthat hits it super far but kind
of would wind it up a littlemore, I would say, and kind of
launches it out a bit lower, islike a cam smith.
And if you think of cam smith,that's kind of exactly the ball
flight he hits right.
But then if you think about camsmith, he's like this
phenomenal freaking wedge playerand he kind of chips these

(01:34:00):
really low little bullets intoall the greens under the wind
and then gets them to grabbecause they have phenomenal
spin rate on them.
So, with that being said, roryis one of those launch it to the
moon guys and it carriesforever and like to your point,
like if we're hitting wedges andwe're really good at launching
it to the moon and now we needto keep it in orbit, that's

(01:34:21):
going to be something that ischallenging for somebody who's
really, really good at launchingit to the moon.
So I mean, it just is what itis right.
I mean like, and, scotty, youknow I've I've gotten a million
DMs about it, I know you have aswell, and it's, I feel, the
same as you right.
It's just like he's very, verygood and at P2, he immediately

(01:34:45):
gets left, and he gets leftfaster than anybody I've seen
get left from P2.
And then, like dude, he's justalready there and like that
right foot has nothing on it, soit's just kind of an anchor
dragging around.
Because he does, he alreadypushed out of it.
People say that he doesn't usehis right leg.
No, he just uses it earlierthan most, in my opinion.

(01:35:21):
So you know from what I've seen, so long story short, man, I
would, but it's just such atreat man to see somebody, uh,
who's approached this craft withsuch care as you and like
you're definitely a no stoneunturned kind of guy.
Man, like I just appreciate thehell out of that, because if,
if you watch jason compete, youknow golf, uh, golf zilla kind

(01:35:43):
of comes out and you're thinkinglike, oh, that guy must just
like drink protein shakes andlift weights all day and he
can't be very smart, but I think, uh, I think that's not the
truth, man, I think you're oneof the smarter guys I've talked
to, uh, about all things golfrelated, and I just really
appreciate you taking the timeto join us and share some of
your insights, man, becausethey've been brilliant.

Speaker 2 (01:36:05):
Oh, thank you, Michael, appreciate it.
It's been a, you know, greatopportunity to, you know talk
about some of these issues andsuch, and you know hope, you
know people get a little, youknow perspective on things and
such, and you know I always liketo say I, I, I like to not
surround myself but like withinmy sphere that I always like to

(01:36:27):
have people that are way moreintelligent than myself because
that I can ask them the toughquestions like yourself on.
You know, james Leitz, mikeAdams, you know these people
that I.
You know, if you surroundyourself with a bunch of yes,

(01:36:50):
men, you never, I don't thinkyou ever get clarity and I never
.
You know.
It's just, I think the morerobust you know people that you
have that you interact with thatare way more accomplished than
you, that that's when you learna lot, right, and that's you
know I.
I'm not, you know, anywhereclose to those guys.

(01:37:14):
You know JP Fernandez, head ofbiomechanics, at smart to move.
Dr Tyler Stander, fred, um, uh,you know we could go down.
Dave Phillips on the golf side,um, on the golf instruction
side.
So you know, when I have aquestion, you know I ask people
that are way smarter than myself, right yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:37:31):
But the thing that you bring to it that's so great,
man, is.
You know I love all those guys,and you know I would be remiss.
You've mentioned a lot of greatguys that I've definitely
learned from as well, but youknow Dr Mark Bowles, another
great one that I've learned from, so I'd be remiss not to bring
up Bowley.
But, with that being said, youknow, I think that we need to

(01:37:55):
understand what we're seeing,and I think we need to
understand it from a deeperperspective than just a very
superficial one of what we see agolf club doing around the
human body.
So I do think that we need tounderstand these concepts and
what's happening from ananatomical standpoint.
However, going back to kind ofthe original part of our
conversation, you know youdidn't know that stuff when you
dug it out of the dirt and likethat's the thing that I think we

(01:38:18):
forget a lot of times aboutathletes is that athletes are
very good at adapting andcompensating their motion to get
the ball to do what they wantit to do.
So I think where you reallybring value, though, is as much
as you're willing to go down therabbit holes with guys like me
and whoever at the same time,like you're always looking at it
from the lens of is that goingto work for me, the athlete?

(01:38:41):
And I think that's really goodbecause we need that kind of
coaching right, like it can't beall very lab X's and O's,
percentages vectors, you know,we still are dealing with human
beings that are only going tohave their feelings with them on
the golf course.
So being able to take thisinformation and make it usable
and make it applicable to theathlete, I mean I think you do a

(01:39:02):
great job of that and you'realways kind of talking from that
inside out perspective, whichis what I really appreciate.

Speaker 2 (01:39:08):
Well, thank you that you know it's.
You know what we say at TPI isalways, you know, don't guess,
assess right.
And you know that that can beapplied across when I when I
mentioned whether it's thatphysical bucket, right?
I don't want to be guessing outof players.
You know the way I approachthings, michael.

(01:39:29):
I want to know their history.
I want to know, you know, dothey have any injuries?
I'm going to do a physicalscreen to see where they're at.
I'm going to do, you knowthere's a lot of different
physical screens.
I you know I'm in the TPI fold,I love the TPI stuff and you
know, am I saying it'severything to everybody?
No, but I think it's a greatsystem A great starting point.

(01:39:51):
man Like I mean at the player'shealthy enough, I want to do
some strength testing.
If the player's healthy enough,I want to do some power testing
.
And then we go down the line.
We go, you know if we can getsome kinematic data.

(01:40:15):
You know, just to know, get toknow our player.
Right, kinematic data we couldunderstand.
The force plate data, know thegrip pressure data you and I
talked about with, uh, you knowsome of the new products coming
to market with what's happeningbetween that hand grip
connection, right um, and andalso understanding that players.
You know their ideology.

(01:40:35):
What are they trying to do,right um, you know that's a huge
thing.
Their tenants, like what?

Speaker 1 (01:40:40):
I think that's the thing that gets missed with all
the technology is we forget toask the player like hey, what do
you want the ball to do?
You?
Know like not what doesTrackman say is best, not what
does the force fight say is best.
But like, what do you think isbest?
And I think you know we justkind of lose sight of that
sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:40:56):
Yeah, no, ultimately it's.
You know, one of the bigtakeaways that we can give is
that we need you know all thesethings matter, all these things
are important, but it comes downto you know.
What does the player desire?
What you know.
Do they want to hit it longer?
Do they want to hit itstraighter?
What shot shape do they want?
What are the vectors that aremost important to them?

(01:41:19):
And then I can make you know Ican construct my strategy to
improve them.
You know, most of the time I'min the bucket of you know I can
construct my strategy to improvethem.
You know, most of the time I'min the bucket of you know guys
want to hit it farther.
You know most most, no one'scoming to Jason Zubak and saying
hey, can I get a putting lessonJason?
Yeah, you know, even though I'ma good putter, I'm a, you know,
pretty good with the short game,but they're coming to me and

(01:41:40):
saying, jason, I need 20 moreyards.
That you know.
That's where I live, right, but, uh, but you know, I have an
appreciation for all this stuffand you know, understanding the
player, understanding theirwants and needs, you know.
But then you know, as a coach,what you know is, you know, are
these wants and needs, you knowwhat, what's going to be able to

(01:42:03):
achieve their goals the fastestand the best, right?
So that's where you know wetake all the stuff that we have
and that's where the mosteffective coaches, you know,
ultimately lie.
You know, with respect to uh,understanding that that crucial
element, and I don't know like I, uh, I love doing this stuff

(01:42:24):
and you know it's been, uh, youknow, great to have, you know,
many interactions with you,michael, because I always learn
something every time and, uh,it's uh, not always good things,
not always good things, so justmaybe a new way to swear in
canadian or something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:42:38):
but but hey, man, thank you so much.
I mean I think you kind ofsummated what we've been talking
about very well and you knowit's a privilege to have
somebody like yourself on thepodcast.
I really appreciate yourinsights.
I love what you're doing forthe game.
Your enthusiasm man.
Like you never have to wonderabout that.

(01:42:59):
Like you're a very enthusiasticperson, you can tell that you
love what you do.
I'm a very enthusiastic person.
You can tell that you love whatyou do.
And, dude, I just love to meetpeople that love to learn
because at the end of the day,my happiness kind of is tied to
learning.
So the more I can learn, thehappier I am as a human.
So I appreciate you sharingyour insights with us.
If you're interested in gettingto know more about Jason, find

(01:43:19):
him on Instagram.
He's definitely doing somestuff out there with Smart2Move
as well.
Instagram.
He's definitely doing somestuff out there with Smart2Move
as well and always has just aton of cool projects, like he
listed with TPI, cobra and a fewother companies.
So he keeps himself mega busyDefinitely easy to find out
there on the internet.
So thank you so much forlistening.
If you haven't alreadysubscribed to this podcast,

(01:43:39):
please do so and make sure thatyou're paying attention, because
we have many more greatepisodes to come this season.
So thanks again to Jason, anduntil next time, keep grinding.

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Unlocking the Secrets to Hitting a Golf Ball Farther with 6-Time World Champion Jason Zubak

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