June 23, 2025 • 23 mins
As Pastor Jeff prepares to transition out of the role of Lead Pastor of HOPE at the end of June, we're speaking with him today about a few things he's learned along the way, specifically what makes a church well-positioned for growth. Take a listen!
NOTES:
- Quote from episode:
- "Don’t even entertain the idea of separating yourself from your brothers and sisters, whether or not they agree with your opinions. Don’t assume someone is wrong or sinful just because they don’t believe what you do or don’t accept your perspective. That kind of thinking leads to division; every time we act that way, we teach others to do the same against us." - John Wesley
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Meet Hope podcast, where we have
conversations about faith andhope.
Hope is one church made ofpeople living out their faith
through two expressions inperson and online.
We believe a hybrid faithexperience can lead to a growing
influence in our community andour world for the sake of others
.
Welcome to Hope.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hey, welcome everyone to today's Hope Church podcast.
I'm here with Pastor Jeff HiJeff.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Rick, how you doing.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
And also here with Bodie and Ashley.
Hi, ashley, and Bodie iscomfortably sleeping right now
so you may hear him shake laterin the episode.
Today we're going to pull backthe curtain a little bit and by
now you have heard the news thatPastor James Lee was recently
appointed as the new lead pastor, beginning July 1st, and Pastor
Jeff will transition into thenew role, continuing to support
(01:00):
Hope, but in ways that reflectthis next season for us as a
church.
So today we're going to take afew moments and reflect on where
we've been, what makes a churchgrow and part of the culture of
this place.
And so, jeff, thanks forsitting down with me today,
absolutely Looking forward tothis conversation.
Yeah, I think it'll be a goodtime, and so let's start with a
little bit of context.
(01:21):
Probably everybody all of ourlisteners know that we're part
of the United Methodist Church,and there are some current
realities that you and I havebeen talking about and looking
at for years.
We've known these things aboutthe United Methodist Church.
For instance, the averageworship size for a United
Methodist Church in America isabout 48 people.
That's average worshipattendance on a Sunday 48 people
(01:44):
people that's average worshipattendance on a Sunday 48 people
.
In fact, about 70% of the29,000 United Methodist churches
in the United States have fewerthan 100 people in worship each
week.
So it's a small churchdenomination.
And even here in New Jerseyabout 70% of the churches have
under 85 people attending weekly.
(02:04):
So it's a sobering truth, right.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yeah, it's Wild to think about, right.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yeah, at the same time, there are some large
United Methodist churches outthere as well.
There's standout churches likeChurch of the Resurrection in
Kansas.
You and I had the opportunityto go there.
It's a great church, it'spretty exciting and they have
24,000 members, so they're thelargest Methodist church in our
country.
And then there's Highland ParkUnited Methodist Church in
(02:37):
Dallas.
That has over 4,000 in worship.
But large churches like that inour country are the exception,
those thousand megachurchchurches in the United Methodist
Church but we do have some ofthose.
But most United Methodistchurches are small communities
and so it's important to realizethat a church like Hope and the
reason we wanted to have thisconversation is that Hope
(02:58):
operates in a very differentspace with different challenges
and opportunities we are thelargest, or one of the largest
churches in the New England area.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Correct, northeast jurisdiction is the way we talk
about it in the Methodist church.
So yeah, up at the wholeEastern seaboard.
Basically we'd be Last.
I recall we were in the top 10,and that goes back 10 years ago
.
So I suspect we're.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, I tried to find more recent data and I couldn't
, so let's go with that thatwe're at least in the top 10 of
largest churches in theNortheastern jurisdiction.
Yeah, yeah, so let's talk aboutHope, pastor Jeff.
Largest in New Jersey.
What's that?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
We're the largest in New Jersey.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yes, and the largest in New Jersey.
So we've been reflectingrecently on why hope grew into a
large church and what are someof the key things that you've
seen.
What makes hope grow?
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, so, as I've been thinking, and you and I
have been talking about this andtalking with some others, it
goes back to the very beginningwhen God called me to start a
church.
So it was going to be a churchfor people who don't go to
(04:12):
church, because we weren'tlooking to take people out of
existing churches.
We wanted to invite people whoaren't currently going to church
, and to do that we did a phonecampaign, something you could
never do today, but you could doin 1990.
So we made 20,000 phone callsand when you think about it, all
(04:36):
we knew was an address and nameyou know so the Jones family
and a phone number, and so wewere just actively inviting
everybody to come.
And it's what Rick, you and Italk about is fishing with a net
, right.
So we're just trying to drawpeople in.
(04:59):
When you start a church likethat, you're starting by
inviting everybody.
You don't care who they are,what their background, you're
just inviting them, and whenthey arrive you need to welcome
them, and so that culture ofwelcome has been developed from
those early days and there's alevel of acceptance, right.
(05:23):
So somebody's going to come in.
They may have no churchbackground, no faith background,
but they're curious.
They're interested, which iswhy they've shown up, and so
(05:46):
just accepting people where theyare in their own spiritual life
at any given time became a partof the culture as well, and so
I think that that expansiveinvitation, welcome and
acceptance has really become theculture of Hope Church.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, it started out as a compelling vision and it
became the church's culture.
Indeed, we started.
The people here started toembody it and it became who they
were.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah, or who we are right.
People felt comfortableinviting a friend who may not
have a faith or may have issueswith the faith, because they
know that they'll be treatedwell here.
And so, again, we want peopleto take a next step.
We want them to grow in theirfaith and develop their faith.
So that's part of it as well totake a next step.
We want them to grow in theirfaith and develop their faith.
(06:26):
So that's part of it as well.
But that's between them and theHoly Spirit, the pace of that.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, and so let's get practical now.
What are a few of thoseelements that have shaped hope
that you've noticed over thelast several decades?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Yeah, so the first one that came to mind was what I
would call participation.
So, from the very beginningagain, all of this, you know, is
started in the early years,back in our school days, and as
it has, as we've grown, you knowthat's remained.
(07:04):
So what I am callingparticipation, that we've asked
people to participate andcreated opportunities for people
to participate, whether it'sthe most basic kinds of ways,
you know the the most basickinds of ways, um so, uh, set up
(07:26):
teams.
Back in, right back in ourschool days, rick, the same
thing was going on in MountLaurel, right?
So you had teams that wouldshow up, meet a trailer, you
know, unload everything, set thewhole thing up.
We were doing that for nineyears, uh, before we had a
building.
Um so it was an easy way forsomebody to participate and we
(07:48):
want them to identify theirgifts, so their participation
makes sense with how God haswired them up to serve.
So teachers are teaching andleaders are leading, and
caregivers are doing that andencouragers are doing that, and
so we just want everybody to bea part, be an active part, roll
(08:12):
up their sleeves, so to speak,and be a part of this thing.
And so when you have a lot ofpeople participating, that just
creates an environment forgrowth, right?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Right.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
So one of the things you hear about smaller churches
is it's the same people who haveto do everything and they feel
dumped on and they feel burnedout and so forth, and so we
never want that.
We want people to participate.
Because they want toparticipate, we want them to be
(08:49):
valued when they participate,and really that's where staff
comes in, right, Right?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
yeah, we want people to get involved, not just attend
, and invest their time andenergy and all those kinds of
things, and that when morepeople are involved there's a
less chance for the church tobecome stagnant, those kinds of
things.
So yeah, so we've leaned, soour staff roles lean into this
idea, right.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Yeah, so the staff are there not to do the ministry
, but to equip and resourcepeople for ministry, to provide
leadership for folks so thatthey are able to then do the
thing.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
So one of the ones that's been really cool.
We just did a podcast recentlyon third Tuesday, so you've got
a it ran.
It ran as well as if I had beenthere, and probably better
because I wasn't there.
Yeah, because people were, theywere, they knew, they were this
, they're responsible, they'releading it.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
And I was there for that one and thought, okay, I'm
going to have a role here whereI'm going to have to step in for
Rick.
Nope, I was getting in the wayactually.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Right, and that's what sometimes I realize is best
for me just to step back,because I'm going to get in the
way.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Isn't that great yeah .
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I love when the church functions like that.
It's fantastic.
Yeah, so staff lead and thepeople build is the way I've
noticed that's a great way toput it.
So, yes, so that leads to thenext piece is not only is a
participation and training andequipping volunteers, but it's
also cooperation and unity.
Yeah, you put those thingstogether.
Why don't you talk about that alittle bit?
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, so we often talk about leadership.
Right, I talk a lot about it.
I think leadership isabsolutely essential.
But if you have really greatleaders but nobody is
cooperating with that leader,nobody is unified around the
vision that that leader is,casting and so forth.
(11:07):
It doesn't matter how great theleader is, it's not going to go
anywhere.
So this church has a longhistory of what we're calling
cooperation or unity, thatpeople are on board with what
we're trying to do, with thevision here, and then we're
cooperatively together.
(11:28):
Together, and there's a lot ofputting ego aside and my own
agenda and so forth in order tohave this unified approach to
doing ministry.
And I was thinking about thisand remembering a time where I
(11:50):
saw that, oh, this is becoming apart of our culture now.
There was a couple that came tothe church again.
This was back in our high schooldays long history of attending
churches and so forth and waysof doing things, and they
weren't thrilled with all thatthey were seeing in this church
(12:11):
and they did what I guess theyalways did, which they began to
kind of complain about what theywere seeing to people in the
congregation, in the lobby andso forth and having private
meetings.
And fairly early on, people whowere hearing from this couple
(12:33):
came and talked to me and saidhey, just so you're aware,
so-and-so is not happy aboutwhat's going on here.
And so I sat down with them andwe had a conversation and it
started with.
That's not the way we do things.
So what you're doing is reallydestructive to the unity, to the
(12:56):
kind of cooperative feel thatwe have here.
So it's fine that you disagreewith things.
You really needed to come andtalk to me first, and so over
time we worked through that andthat couple became very
committed and were here fordecades.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
That's a great story, yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
But that's an intentional part of our culture,
that you don't have to agreewith everything your
disappointments or disapprovalsor whatever but to do it in the
(13:39):
right way to the right people isan essential thing.
When you've got cooperationlike that, when people are
working together toward a commongoal, toward a common vision,
it's powerful, right, yeah yeah,oh, it's rare and it's powerful
, right, yeah, yeah, oh, it'srare and it's rare, yeah, and it
is a gift.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
It's a gift to the church.
Right that we don't usedisagreements as an excuse to
disrupt or divide.
Right that we can be committedto the mission together.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And you know, this is such animportant thing to us that in
our principles of community wehave a principle that says the
Lord loves unity.
Yeah, and it's the very firstprinciple.
Oh yeah, right.
Yeah, yeah, not that they'reranked, but yeah, we did put it
as the first one and that comesright out of John's gospel,
(14:26):
where Jesus prays for unity forhis church on earth, for his
church on earth, and asMethodist Wesleyans, john Wesley
was very committed to this ideaof unity and came across a
quote yeah, yeah, let me readthat.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, so this is John Wesley.
He said Don't even entertainthe idea of separating yourself
from your brothers and sisters,whether or not they agree with
your opinions.
Don't assume someone is wrongor sinful just because they
don't believe what you do ordon't accept your perspective.
That kind of thinking leads todivision.
(15:08):
Every time we act that way, weteach others to do the same
against us.
I mean, that really sounds likea spiritual posture, doesn't it
?
It's not just a leadership one.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
It's really about how are you, what's your attitude,
how are you being most likeJesus, right, yeah, and again,
that's a decision that eachindividual in the church makes,
that they're going to behave inaffirming ways in cooperative
(15:44):
ways.
Again, when you have peopledoing that broadly, it creates a
culture and environment thatwhen you're new coming in you
feel it.
People talk about the feel ofthis place that they find
infectious early on, even thoughthey don't fully understand all
(16:08):
that's going on there.
So it's the spirit of unity andcooperation that's part of that
feel.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
And we've had to be intentional about that, we've
had to model it, we've had toname it and we've had to protect
it.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
And we model it as a staff, our lead team, the way
that we do business, and so it'sacross the whole church that
this is a reality.
And again, so why is Hope alarger church?
This cooperation piece is animportant part of it, Absolutely
(16:43):
yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
And then what else stands out?
I think there's at least onemore that you and I have talked
about that this church hasconsistently made bold decisions
.
Right, and you're calling thatCourage, Courage, yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, in fact, just on an aside, when we're
considering somebody on staff,there's four things that we say
we're looking for.
Character right, Chemistrycompetence.
And then I remember, Rick, youand I having conversations years
ago about adding this fourthone, and it's courage.
(17:20):
Courage, right, yeah.
And so the idea of courage is,as you read the Bible, God calls
people to do things that theywould not probably normally do,
like building an ark, or goingto Pharaoh to say, let my people
(17:40):
go.
Or to proclaim the resurrectionof Christ to a skeptical,
violent opposition, or leaveyour nets and follow me right.
All of that right.
It's always these courageousdecisions, because it's the Lord
saying trust me, right, so youmay not have it all figured out,
(18:04):
you may not have it alltogether, trust me and you'll
see me as you're going along theway.
And that's what.
Again, I have the joy and theexperience of the whole run of
this church and seeing, from thevery beginning, this church
(18:27):
making courageous decisions, notfoolishly, thoughtfully and so
forth, but always it's a step offaith, it takes faith and it
takes courage to make thesesteps.
So the very first one happenedwhen we bought the parsonage
(18:51):
right.
So the church was six monthsold, we had no members, we had
no giving history other than sixmonths.
And they're going to buy thishouse.
And I remember the meeting.
It was a churchwide meeting, wehad to vote on it and it was
people were wrestling with thatbig decision and ultimately made
(19:14):
a courageous decision, decisionso that's back in the 1991.
And time after time after time,the church has chosen to take
these steps of faith, thesecourageous steps of faith, and I
(19:36):
think God honors that, Godblesses that and it creates
again an environment of oh, thisis a dynamic place, this is a
place that really lives intotheir faith.
And it's not just again, it'snot making bet the farm,
wild-eyed choices all over theplace.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
And also you have mentioned that.
But also it's always been aboutmaking room for more people, a
hundred percent.
All those courageous decisionswere never self-serving.
They're always about how can wemake room for more, whether it
was physically or spiritually orrelationally, how can we bring
(20:16):
more people here, or budgetlimitations.
We didn't allow that to be thedetermining factor, even though
without God, that might be well,that might be what we should do
, but it was always, you know, Isaid it was prayerful, it was
thoughtful, but yet it also wascourageous.
So listen.
So if you're folks, if you'relistening today, whether you're
(20:38):
part of Hope or you're justcurious and someone invited you
to listen to this podcast,thanks for doing that.
And, jeff, what's a takeaway?
What's one thing you say foreverybody, like, hey, here's,
they've listened, they've beenlistening for this 20 minutes
and what's a takeaway for them?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Yeah, you know, it's a large church, but it's about
individuals, right?
So every individual matters toGod.
Every individual is deeply,desperately loved by the Lord.
He gave his life for each of us, and so you matter to this
(21:17):
place, and, whether you're brandnew, you've been coming for a
week or you've been here for 35years, you're an important part
of this place, and so I'mgrateful for your participation.
I'm grateful for the ways thatyou live into cooperation, that
(21:37):
the courage that you have, thefaith that you have, which
allows us to make courageousdecisions.
All of that comes down to eachindividual.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
And so I'm grateful for each one of the people here
and God is is doing in thisplace.
So we've done this thing, wherewe ended podcasts early on with
the question what are youhopeful about?
Yes, yeah, and it's that.
(22:11):
It's.
It's the culture that wasestablished in the early years
is deep in the DNA of this place, and that individuals choose to
embody it, which allows us tobe an influence in this area for
the kingdom of God.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, as you said, the realgoal is to create a culture
where people follow Jesus rightand they serve one another, and
that size is a byproduct of, nota goal, as it has Jesus right
and they serve one another andthat size is a byproduct of, not
a goal.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Yeah Right, yeah, yeah.
Large isn't better, it'sdifferent.
We need to recognize the waysthat it's different, yes, and be
faithful in the ways that we'recalled to serve.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah.
So, pastor, jeff, thanks foryour leadership and this
conversation.
Yeah, it was great, rick, yeah,yeah, and so that's it, bodhi
enjoyed it too, and Bodhi did.
Yeah, he was awake for just amoment.
Hey, that's it for today'sepisode, and if you found this
conversation meaningful, I'dlove if you'd share it with
someone and, as always, we'regrateful for you as our
listeners, so have a great dayour listeners, so have a great
(23:35):
day.
Welcome to the Meet Hope podcast, where we have
conversations about faith andhope.
Hope is one church made ofpeople living out their faith
through two expressions inperson and online.
We believe a hybrid faithexperience can lead to a growing
influence in our community andour world for the sake of others
.
Welcome to Hope.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hey, welcome everyone to today's Hope Church podcast.
I'm here with Pastor Jeff HiJeff.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Rick, how you doing.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
And also here with Bodie and Ashley.
Hi, ashley, and Bodie iscomfortably sleeping right now
so you may hear him shake laterin the episode.
Today we're going to pull backthe curtain a little bit and by
now you have heard the news thatPastor James Lee was recently
appointed as the new lead pastor, beginning July 1st, and Pastor
Jeff will transition into thenew role, continuing to support
(01:00):
Hope, but in ways that reflectthis next season for us as a
church.
So today we're going to take afew moments and reflect on where
we've been, what makes a churchgrow and part of the culture of
this place.
And so, jeff, thanks forsitting down with me today,
absolutely Looking forward tothis conversation.
Yeah, I think it'll be a goodtime, and so let's start with a
little bit of context.
(01:21):
Probably everybody all of ourlisteners know that we're part
of the United Methodist Church,and there are some current
realities that you and I havebeen talking about and looking
at for years.
We've known these things aboutthe United Methodist Church.
For instance, the averageworship size for a United
Methodist Church in America isabout 48 people.
That's average worshipattendance on a Sunday 48 people
(01:44):
people that's average worshipattendance on a Sunday 48 people
.
In fact, about 70% of the29,000 United Methodist churches
in the United States have fewerthan 100 people in worship each
week.
So it's a small churchdenomination.
And even here in New Jerseyabout 70% of the churches have
under 85 people attending weekly.
(02:04):
So it's a sobering truth, right.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yeah, it's Wild to think about, right.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yeah, at the same time, there are some large
United Methodist churches outthere as well.
There's standout churches likeChurch of the Resurrection in
Kansas.
You and I had the opportunityto go there.
It's a great church, it'spretty exciting and they have
24,000 members, so they're thelargest Methodist church in our
country.
And then there's Highland ParkUnited Methodist Church in
(02:37):
Dallas.
That has over 4,000 in worship.
But large churches like that inour country are the exception,
those thousand megachurchchurches in the United Methodist
Church but we do have some ofthose.
But most United Methodistchurches are small communities
and so it's important to realizethat a church like Hope and the
reason we wanted to have thisconversation is that Hope
(02:58):
operates in a very differentspace with different challenges
and opportunities we are thelargest, or one of the largest
churches in the New England area.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Correct, northeast jurisdiction is the way we talk
about it in the Methodist church.
So yeah, up at the wholeEastern seaboard.
Basically we'd be Last.
I recall we were in the top 10,and that goes back 10 years ago
.
So I suspect we're.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, I tried to find more recent data and I couldn't
, so let's go with that thatwe're at least in the top 10 of
largest churches in theNortheastern jurisdiction.
Yeah, yeah, so let's talk aboutHope, pastor Jeff.
Largest in New Jersey.
What's that?
Speaker 3 (03:40):
We're the largest in New Jersey.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yes, and the largest in New Jersey.
So we've been reflectingrecently on why hope grew into a
large church and what are someof the key things that you've
seen.
What makes hope grow?
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah, so, as I've been thinking, and you and I
have been talking about this andtalking with some others, it
goes back to the very beginningwhen God called me to start a
church.
So it was going to be a churchfor people who don't go to
(04:12):
church, because we weren'tlooking to take people out of
existing churches.
We wanted to invite people whoaren't currently going to church
, and to do that we did a phonecampaign, something you could
never do today, but you could doin 1990.
So we made 20,000 phone callsand when you think about it, all
(04:36):
we knew was an address and nameyou know so the Jones family
and a phone number, and so wewere just actively inviting
everybody to come.
And it's what Rick, you and Italk about is fishing with a net
, right.
So we're just trying to drawpeople in.
(04:59):
When you start a church likethat, you're starting by
inviting everybody.
You don't care who they are,what their background, you're
just inviting them, and whenthey arrive you need to welcome
them, and so that culture ofwelcome has been developed from
those early days and there's alevel of acceptance, right.
(05:23):
So somebody's going to come in.
They may have no churchbackground, no faith background,
but they're curious.
They're interested, which iswhy they've shown up, and so
(05:46):
just accepting people where theyare in their own spiritual life
at any given time became a partof the culture as well, and so
I think that that expansiveinvitation, welcome and
acceptance has really become theculture of Hope Church.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, it started out as a compelling vision and it
became the church's culture.
Indeed, we started.
The people here started toembody it and it became who they
were.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah, or who we are right.
People felt comfortableinviting a friend who may not
have a faith or may have issueswith the faith, because they
know that they'll be treatedwell here.
And so, again, we want peopleto take a next step.
We want them to grow in theirfaith and develop their faith.
So that's part of it as well totake a next step.
We want them to grow in theirfaith and develop their faith.
(06:26):
So that's part of it as well.
But that's between them and theHoly Spirit, the pace of that.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah, and so let's get practical now.
What are a few of thoseelements that have shaped hope
that you've noticed over thelast several decades?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Yeah, so the first one that came to mind was what I
would call participation.
So, from the very beginningagain, all of this, you know, is
started in the early years,back in our school days, and as
it has, as we've grown, you knowthat's remained.
(07:04):
So what I am callingparticipation, that we've asked
people to participate andcreated opportunities for people
to participate, whether it'sthe most basic kinds of ways,
you know the the most basickinds of ways, um so, uh, set up
(07:26):
teams.
Back in, right back in ourschool days, rick, the same
thing was going on in MountLaurel, right?
So you had teams that wouldshow up, meet a trailer, you
know, unload everything, set thewhole thing up.
We were doing that for nineyears, uh, before we had a
building.
Um so it was an easy way forsomebody to participate and we
(07:48):
want them to identify theirgifts, so their participation
makes sense with how God haswired them up to serve.
So teachers are teaching andleaders are leading, and
caregivers are doing that andencouragers are doing that, and
so we just want everybody to bea part, be an active part, roll
(08:12):
up their sleeves, so to speak,and be a part of this thing.
And so when you have a lot ofpeople participating, that just
creates an environment forgrowth, right?
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Right.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
So one of the things you hear about smaller churches
is it's the same people who haveto do everything and they feel
dumped on and they feel burnedout and so forth, and so we
never want that.
We want people to participate.
Because they want toparticipate, we want them to be
(08:49):
valued when they participate,and really that's where staff
comes in, right, Right?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
yeah, we want people to get involved, not just attend
, and invest their time andenergy and all those kinds of
things, and that when morepeople are involved there's a
less chance for the church tobecome stagnant, those kinds of
things.
So yeah, so we've leaned, soour staff roles lean into this
idea, right.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Yeah, so the staff are there not to do the ministry
, but to equip and resourcepeople for ministry, to provide
leadership for folks so thatthey are able to then do the
thing.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
So one of the ones that's been really cool.
We just did a podcast recentlyon third Tuesday, so you've got
a it ran.
It ran as well as if I had beenthere, and probably better
because I wasn't there.
Yeah, because people were, theywere, they knew, they were this
, they're responsible, they'releading it.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
And I was there for that one and thought, okay, I'm
going to have a role here whereI'm going to have to step in for
Rick.
Nope, I was getting in the wayactually.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
Right, and that's what sometimes I realize is best
for me just to step back,because I'm going to get in the
way.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Isn't that great yeah .
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I love when the church functions like that.
It's fantastic.
Yeah, so staff lead and thepeople build is the way I've
noticed that's a great way toput it.
So, yes, so that leads to thenext piece is not only is a
participation and training andequipping volunteers, but it's
also cooperation and unity.
Yeah, you put those thingstogether.
Why don't you talk about that alittle bit?
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, so we often talk about leadership.
Right, I talk a lot about it.
I think leadership isabsolutely essential.
But if you have really greatleaders but nobody is
cooperating with that leader,nobody is unified around the
vision that that leader is,casting and so forth.
(11:07):
It doesn't matter how great theleader is, it's not going to go
anywhere.
So this church has a longhistory of what we're calling
cooperation or unity, thatpeople are on board with what
we're trying to do, with thevision here, and then we're
cooperatively together.
(11:28):
Together, and there's a lot ofputting ego aside and my own
agenda and so forth in order tohave this unified approach to
doing ministry.
And I was thinking about thisand remembering a time where I
(11:50):
saw that, oh, this is becoming apart of our culture now.
There was a couple that came tothe church again.
This was back in our high schooldays long history of attending
churches and so forth and waysof doing things, and they
weren't thrilled with all thatthey were seeing in this church
(12:11):
and they did what I guess theyalways did, which they began to
kind of complain about what theywere seeing to people in the
congregation, in the lobby andso forth and having private
meetings.
And fairly early on, people whowere hearing from this couple
(12:33):
came and talked to me and saidhey, just so you're aware,
so-and-so is not happy aboutwhat's going on here.
And so I sat down with them andwe had a conversation and it
started with.
That's not the way we do things.
So what you're doing is reallydestructive to the unity, to the
(12:56):
kind of cooperative feel thatwe have here.
So it's fine that you disagreewith things.
You really needed to come andtalk to me first, and so over
time we worked through that andthat couple became very
committed and were here fordecades.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
That's a great story, yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
But that's an intentional part of our culture,
that you don't have to agreewith everything your
disappointments or disapprovalsor whatever but to do it in the
(13:39):
right way to the right people isan essential thing.
When you've got cooperationlike that, when people are
working together toward a commongoal, toward a common vision,
it's powerful, right, yeah yeah,oh, it's rare and it's powerful
, right, yeah, yeah, oh, it'srare and it's rare, yeah, and it
is a gift.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
It's a gift to the church.
Right that we don't usedisagreements as an excuse to
disrupt or divide.
Right that we can be committedto the mission together.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And you know, this is such animportant thing to us that in
our principles of community wehave a principle that says the
Lord loves unity.
Yeah, and it's the very firstprinciple.
Oh yeah, right.
Yeah, yeah, not that they'reranked, but yeah, we did put it
as the first one and that comesright out of John's gospel,
(14:26):
where Jesus prays for unity forhis church on earth, for his
church on earth, and asMethodist Wesleyans, john Wesley
was very committed to this ideaof unity and came across a
quote yeah, yeah, let me readthat.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yeah, so this is John Wesley.
He said Don't even entertainthe idea of separating yourself
from your brothers and sisters,whether or not they agree with
your opinions.
Don't assume someone is wrongor sinful just because they
don't believe what you do ordon't accept your perspective.
That kind of thinking leads todivision.
(15:08):
Every time we act that way, weteach others to do the same
against us.
I mean, that really sounds likea spiritual posture, doesn't it
?
It's not just a leadership one.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
It's really about how are you, what's your attitude,
how are you being most likeJesus, right, yeah, and again,
that's a decision that eachindividual in the church makes,
that they're going to behave inaffirming ways in cooperative
(15:44):
ways.
Again, when you have peopledoing that broadly, it creates a
culture and environment thatwhen you're new coming in you
feel it.
People talk about the feel ofthis place that they find
infectious early on, even thoughthey don't fully understand all
(16:08):
that's going on there.
So it's the spirit of unity andcooperation that's part of that
feel.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
And we've had to be intentional about that, we've
had to model it, we've had toname it and we've had to protect
it.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
And we model it as a staff, our lead team, the way
that we do business, and so it'sacross the whole church that
this is a reality.
And again, so why is Hope alarger church?
This cooperation piece is animportant part of it, Absolutely
(16:43):
yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
And then what else stands out?
I think there's at least onemore that you and I have talked
about that this church hasconsistently made bold decisions
.
Right, and you're calling thatCourage, Courage, yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, in fact, just on an aside, when we're
considering somebody on staff,there's four things that we say
we're looking for.
Character right, Chemistrycompetence.
And then I remember, Rick, youand I having conversations years
ago about adding this fourthone, and it's courage.
(17:20):
Courage, right, yeah.
And so the idea of courage is,as you read the Bible, God calls
people to do things that theywould not probably normally do,
like building an ark, or goingto Pharaoh to say, let my people
(17:40):
go.
Or to proclaim the resurrectionof Christ to a skeptical,
violent opposition, or leaveyour nets and follow me right.
All of that right.
It's always these courageousdecisions, because it's the Lord
saying trust me, right, so youmay not have it all figured out,
(18:04):
you may not have it alltogether, trust me and you'll
see me as you're going along theway.
And that's what.
Again, I have the joy and theexperience of the whole run of
this church and seeing, from thevery beginning, this church
(18:27):
making courageous decisions, notfoolishly, thoughtfully and so
forth, but always it's a step offaith, it takes faith and it
takes courage to make thesesteps.
So the very first one happenedwhen we bought the parsonage
(18:51):
right.
So the church was six monthsold, we had no members, we had
no giving history other than sixmonths.
And they're going to buy thishouse.
And I remember the meeting.
It was a churchwide meeting, wehad to vote on it and it was
people were wrestling with thatbig decision and ultimately made
(19:14):
a courageous decision, decisionso that's back in the 1991.
And time after time after time,the church has chosen to take
these steps of faith, thesecourageous steps of faith, and I
(19:36):
think God honors that, Godblesses that and it creates
again an environment of oh, thisis a dynamic place, this is a
place that really lives intotheir faith.
And it's not just again, it'snot making bet the farm,
wild-eyed choices all over theplace.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
And also you have mentioned that.
But also it's always been aboutmaking room for more people, a
hundred percent.
All those courageous decisionswere never self-serving.
They're always about how can wemake room for more, whether it
was physically or spiritually orrelationally, how can we bring
(20:16):
more people here, or budgetlimitations.
We didn't allow that to be thedetermining factor, even though
without God, that might be well,that might be what we should do
, but it was always, you know, Isaid it was prayerful, it was
thoughtful, but yet it also wascourageous.
So listen.
So if you're folks, if you'relistening today, whether you're
(20:38):
part of Hope or you're justcurious and someone invited you
to listen to this podcast,thanks for doing that.
And, jeff, what's a takeaway?
What's one thing you say foreverybody, like, hey, here's,
they've listened, they've beenlistening for this 20 minutes
and what's a takeaway for them?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Yeah, you know, it's a large church, but it's about
individuals, right?
So every individual matters toGod.
Every individual is deeply,desperately loved by the Lord.
He gave his life for each of us, and so you matter to this
(21:17):
place, and, whether you're brandnew, you've been coming for a
week or you've been here for 35years, you're an important part
of this place, and so I'mgrateful for your participation.
I'm grateful for the ways thatyou live into cooperation, that
(21:37):
the courage that you have, thefaith that you have, which
allows us to make courageousdecisions.
All of that comes down to eachindividual.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
And so I'm grateful for each one of the people here
and God is is doing in thisplace.
So we've done this thing, wherewe ended podcasts early on with
the question what are youhopeful about?
Yes, yeah, and it's that.
(22:11):
It's.
It's the culture that wasestablished in the early years
is deep in the DNA of this place, and that individuals choose to
embody it, which allows us tobe an influence in this area for
the kingdom of God.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, as you said, the realgoal is to create a culture
where people follow Jesus rightand they serve one another, and
that size is a byproduct of, nota goal, as it has Jesus right
and they serve one another andthat size is a byproduct of, not
a goal.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Yeah Right, yeah, yeah.
Large isn't better, it'sdifferent.
We need to recognize the waysthat it's different, yes, and be
faithful in the ways that we'recalled to serve.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah.
So, pastor, jeff, thanks foryour leadership and this
conversation.
Yeah, it was great, rick, yeah,yeah, and so that's it, bodhi
enjoyed it too, and Bodhi did.
Yeah, he was awake for just amoment.
Hey, that's it for today'sepisode, and if you found this
conversation meaningful, I'dlove if you'd share it with
someone and, as always, we'regrateful for you as our
listeners, so have a great dayour listeners, so have a great
(23:35):
day.
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