59. The Christian Facade

DJ and Brad talk about putting on a church mask and the issues that come with it. They also talk about how they have seen breakthroughs and victories with men in the church.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
To anyone tuned in, this is the Men Church Stuff podcast.

(00:13):
It's the show where brothers-in-law DJ Culp and Brad Coleman talk about what it's like
being Christian men in today's society.
Having spent our entire lives immersed in church culture, we want to share our experiences
with other men who are willing to listen.
We'll talk life stuff, church stuff, man stuff, and well, stuff stuff.

(00:38):
Let's get to it.
Greetings, listeners here and there and everywhere all across the land.
This is the Men Church Stuff podcast.
I'm one of your hosts, DJ Culp.
As always, here with my beloved brother-in-law, Brad Coleman.

(01:02):
Brad, I don't know if I should say good morning or just morning.
Hey, you know, I got coffee in my cup and the sun's shining and the one helps me remember
the other.
I've got coffee in mine.
Yeah, so this morning was my morning with the kids.

(01:28):
Since we moved Zoe upstairs and she's sharing a room with Addy, Sher and I are alternating
mornings because there's no reason for both of us to be upstairs.
Too many irons in the fire.
So yeah, I got up early for me getting up early, listeners, if you guys get up earlier

(01:51):
than like 5.30, then I did not get up early.
But to me, it was early.
I'm a little draggy, man.
But like you, I've got some coffee.
So the topic today, I think I deal with pretty, I think I deal with in waves.

(02:21):
I'm not going to say pretty hard.
I think I deal with in waves.
But guys, in my experience, Brad, I want to hear you on this.
In my experience, I feel like guys put on a I'm fine and I'm indestructible face and

(02:47):
persona more than women do.
But that's not that's in my experience.
Do you like as a pastor, have you have you sense that?
As a pastor, sure, as a guy.
I mean, I think one, I think we're afraid to be seen as as weak and vulnerable.

(03:13):
And in some senses, I don't know that we need to be overly weak and vulnerable as men because
we do have things.
We are called to protect our families.
We are called to this.
But sometimes I think we go we go we go overboard.
But I think there's a big distinction between being tough and feeling the need to look tough.

(03:41):
Yeah.
And I think about someone said once about a lion.
A lion doesn't need for you to know he's a lion.
He doesn't need to prove to you that he's a lion.
He's just a lion.
He's just a lion.
That's yeah.
That's a good point.
So are we are we tough?

(04:07):
And at times we're not.
And that's okay.
Because, you know, we're not God.
We're not 100%.
Yeah.
His toughness doesn't run out.
His strength doesn't run out.
And you know, not to get too preachy, but you know, where do we go when there's does?
But I think there's a big difference between being tough and acting tough.

(04:34):
So I want to go actually a couple of places with that.
But the the first one, I'm curious to know, I'm curious to know how you have seen like
guys acting tough, you know, being macho, the word that the word that we we grew up

(04:56):
using quite often.
Just because macho man rain.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah, I do have totally forgot that he did those commercials.
That's right.
Um, how, how have you seen that like negatively affect?

(05:26):
I can't right.
I refuse to say positively if like, because I don't think it happened.
But how have you seen that negatively affect the church?
Like when guys have that because I've got, I've got, I've got my like how I have seen
it, but I'm curious to know like how you have seen it sort of that manifests itself.

(05:51):
That's deep.
Like I'm not sitting here like, oh, I don't know how it's just like, where, where do you,
where do you go?
And if I'm honest, like, man, I keep in this conversation already.
Yeah.
I'm like, how many times I'm guilty?
How many times I know, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Because I think there's, I think there's tough, you know, with grit and enduring and strong

(06:18):
and being able to get through things, right?
Which is, which is the true things that we need to be.
And then there's the tough that we tend to want to act like we are like nothing hurts
us and nothing bothers us.
And, oh yeah, say, say whatever, you know, sticks and stones may break my bones, but

(06:40):
names will never hurt me.
Right.
Kind of things.
So I, I think we miss things because, because those things aren't true.
You know, when, when people say things that hurt me, they hurt me.
They hurt, right.
And so acting like they don't hurt me.

(07:04):
And sometimes in the moment that might be okay, but like, if I'm acting like I never
get hurt, I'm acting like I don't have those emotions.
Then one, I'm, I'm not being truthful.
Right.
And what does that show?
Was that show my son?
Mm hmm.
You know, if he sees this and he sees me go through all this and oh, it never stings.

(07:28):
It never hurts dads.
You know, nothing ever bothers dad.
Or does that tell my church, the other guys in my church, nothing ever bothers her pastor.
And then they go through crap.
Yeah.
And it bothers them.
Then they feel more broken.

(07:49):
So to that point, it almost like, it almost gives a, I don't know if, I don't know if
people would think this deeply about it, or at least this in this, this specifically about
it maybe, but it almost gives a false, a false narrative to like Jesus's own explanation

(08:12):
as to why he even came.
I didn't come for the well, but for those who are sick.
So if I, if I act on macho and I'm good, I mean, to your, to your Jesus, you came for
all those other people for everybody else.
Yeah.
But yeah, like I'm good.
I'm good.
Right.
I get it.

(08:32):
Yeah.
And, and what I was thinking when you said, you know, how does that, how does that sort
of manifest itself to your son?
I was thinking for me in my relationship, excuse me, my relationship with Noah.
I mean, he, he may very well fall into the, well, as you mentioned, you know, if dad's
got it all together, then I mean, did Jesus come for me and not for him?

(08:56):
Or you know, like, what is it that, what is it that in that particular frame of reference?
What is being sick, so to speak?
What does that look like?
And why is it okay that Jesus came for, for me?
Or the other side, or the other side of that, right?

(09:19):
Which is, did I not get Jesus?
Because I'm not perfectly okay.
Yeah.
You know, that, that did bring me to my knees when, when they, you know, when I was attacked,
when I was hurt, was grieving.
So, so do I not have Jesus because those things still happen?

(09:41):
Right.
My response to that song was like, go read the Psalms, man, go read the Psalms.
Like, like David emotions.
I just thought about this and that and a couple years back, Isaiah was, was upset because
of something that had happened.

(10:02):
And I like legitimately upset, right?
And then really emotionally hurt him deeply.
And he was, and he was in his room and I, like he was crying.
And so I went into his room and he, and he, you know, he's 14.
So he's probably like 12 at that time.

(10:23):
Yeah.
And crying and I'm like, what's going on, bud?
He, what he, what he told me was he's like, I'm sorry, dad.
I'm sorry.
I know, I know that, that, you know, I'm not supposed to cry as a man and all this.
And I looked at him and I said, who told you that garbage?

(10:45):
Yeah.
I said, I know you didn't.
Like, I know I didn't teach you that.
I know that's not what I've been telling you.
And, and he's like, well, I was like, look son, I'm going to tell you what my dad told
me, you know, John 1135, Jesus wept.
Now, weeping to me is, it's not just like, oh, a couple tears went down his eyes.

(11:10):
It's like, like ugly cry.
Right.
Yeah.
Like, like this is, he's, he's crying.
If the man who shows us what manhood is has cried because his, you know, his, his friend
has died or these people are unbelieving because he's very emotional.

(11:31):
And he's the sinless man who's shown us the model cry that I think he's given us permission
for us to cry.
Yeah.
And so, like, I think I straightened that up.
Not again, we, we have that conversation, you know, farther about how, look, we don't
whine, right, if you're crying because you stubbed your toe and, you know, and there's

(12:00):
a little frustration there.
And I'm like, yeah, you probably need to suck that up bit.
Yeah.
Right.
But if you're, but if you're crying because, you know, your heart is broken or, or you're,
you know, I'm going to try to suck it up even if my arm is broken, but like, look, I
get you.
I think there's a level of pain that tears are just a release.

(12:21):
Go ahead and cry.
Yeah.
Right.
You know, your arms have hanging off.
Dude, nothing wrong with crying.
And, and not only that, but like as guys, I'll just put it this way.
There is a certain angle at which if we get, if we get kicked, it may bring us to tears.

(12:43):
Yeah.
And that's, that's okay.
And I know, and I know most men would be like, yep, nope.
Totally understand.
Like I was crying with your brother.
That's right.
You take your time.
I'll be over here.
Yeah.
You brought some tears to my eyes.
Right.
But again, just the difference of like it's okay to express big emotions and feel big

(13:08):
emotions as men God, God gave us these emotions.
Jesus demonstrates these emotions.
Yeah.
And so why in the world do we think that manhood, especially, and we're talking guys in the
church, followers of Jesus, why in the world will we think that Godly manhood is to act

(13:31):
like we can just turn those off and they don't exist.
So the way that I have seen, and I mean, it's not, I'm speaking almost like absolute
it's not a universal, universal application.
But the way that I've seen a lot of, a lot of this manifestation, you know, of guys

(13:56):
basically holding, holding their, holding their, their persona to I'm good.
You know, I accepted Jesus and at whatever point in my life, he, he cleared it all up
and I'm fine.
To be quite honest is I have seen so many guys not like not be active, not serve, not

(14:27):
be a, not be like a moving force in the church body.
And that kind of, that kind of, and this is going to sound really judgmental.
So listeners, I'm sorry, but like, you know, when one of the things that, that I've always
done and if you're new to show, I teach it a Christian institution.

(14:51):
I've got a doctorate degree, not like, you know, big whoop whoop whoop whoop.
Yeah, whoop dee doo.
But here's the thing.
The reason, the reason I say that is when I went to go get, when I pursued my graduate
degrees, I, I started asking why even more than I did before.
I've always asked why ever since I was a kid.

(15:14):
But when I, when I, you know, if I hear someone say what I just did about the, you know, I
have seen that, that, that men are not active.
They're not, they're not these, these, these moving or immovable forces, I should say, immovable
forces in a church.

(15:36):
My next question is why?
And busy schedules is one thing.
But even I, Brad, I don't know, man, I really do hold to the idea that, that we will do
what we actually want to do.

(16:00):
So at my core, Brad, I'm a behaviorist.
And so I, I tend to lean more on the, if we care and if we want to do it, we will pursue
that track.
Now, I can't, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to chase the rabbitives, you know,

(16:21):
as to, as to, well, how far would people go?
I don't, that part, I don't know.
But like, if we really care about it, we'll make time for it.
And if it's something that's just, if it's a convenience, if it's a luxury, if it's
something that, that we don't necessarily find value in, then, or if it's something
that, that, that we're okay, you know, if we're very content, then we won't pursue

(16:45):
it.
And what I have, what I have seen, and I'm, I'm guilty of it.
But like, what I have seen is guys that, men specifically, that don't have this, this desperation
for knowing Christ or desperation for thinking about Christ or desperation for, I mean, having,

(17:09):
having just a, having a, you know, a talk it out session like you and I have on podcasting,
or whenever we go fishing or sitting around a dinner table, you know, what I have found
is typically those guys don't have as much if any active role in the church.

(17:34):
And I'm not, I like, I certainly don't want to make this the platform for, you know, shaking
my finger by any means.
I was just thinking about, yeah, how is it that I have seen the macho, the macho man,
Randy Savage.
How have I seen that manifest itself?
And that's kind of where I land.

(17:55):
Because in, in, like, let's be fair here, a lot of guys that, a lot of guys that, that,
that we go to church with, I don't see in out in the community.
I don't, I like, I don't, so like, I could be speaking way out of turn right now.
But anyways, thoughts, what do you think?
Well, I think, well, several thoughts.

(18:21):
Again, guys, if you're listening, want to remind you that DJ and I don't script these.
No, not at all.
This is, this is real.
So sometimes DJ's throwing something over here and I'm going, okay.
And I got about 12 different things in my mind and I'm trying to funnel it down and go,
okay, where do I need to go with this?

(18:43):
Let me just share a couple of things that are like, as you're saying that, that I'm thinking.
Yeah.
One, I think one of Satan's biggest goals is to keep men out of the church.
Because as, as goes the father, so tends to go the rest of the family.

(19:09):
It's true.
And vice versa.
And so when you, when you look at that leadership that God has given us as men to be the spiritual
leaders of our family, not the boss, the leader, you know, and we've discussed the difference
before, but just a real quick.

(19:30):
Yeah, no, yeah.
Let's rehash it later.
The leader is, is the one who's going the same direction.
He's helping everybody else get that direction.
He's not sitting up and making everybody else do it.
And it's not, hey, you listen to me because I'm the authority.
It's, hey, I love my family.
I love my God.

(19:51):
And so I'm going to be leading and encouraging and pushing everyone to be working together
and going together.
And so like when, you know, if, if Satan can keep dad out of church and, and once since
he's won a great victory, he hasn't won the victory.

(20:13):
Right.
And it's not over.
Because I'm going to tell you, I'm not going to downsize and I don't want any, any little
lady or who, you know, I can't tell you how many little old ladies who are, who have been
prayer warriors throughout the years, who have prayed for their husbands for 40 years

(20:35):
to come to faith and, and have seen that.
But, but it's taken those 40 years because they were faithful.
So we're not downsizing that at all.
Oh gosh.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, but, but God has put men of the head of the household.
And so what is Satan going to, to attack big time?

(20:59):
You know, that biblical manhood, he's going to attack men in the church, right?
So now the other thing is, have we made church, and I've heard this, I have heard, and I agree
and I don't agree, right?
But the question that is worth sharing is, have we made church a place that is not geared

(21:25):
toward biblical manhood?
You know, have we made church a place where coming and being a man is, doesn't seem to
mesh?
I think there's, yeah.
Unpack that.
What do you mean?
So, what do we do when we come, we come to church, right?

(21:50):
When we come to church and, and we go to the worship service, we're going to sing, if they're
wrong with singing, right?
Worshiping God, that's fine.
But we're going to sing these songs and oftentimes these songs are going to be songs that are
very full of, of emotions and emotional things.

(22:13):
We're going to focus a lot on talking in some senses, maybe about our feelings.
Yeah.
It's got to be, and biblical truth is not about our feelings.
I mean, feelings go along with it.
But biblical truth is about what, what God has said, and then how do we align with that?

(22:33):
Right.
Yeah.
I agree and I disagree, but there's, there's some who have gone, you know, we've really
created a lot of times these beautiful, let's create this beautiful atmosphere, this very,
you know, pretty and dainty kind of things that, that really doesn't line up with, with

(23:00):
masculinity and so it's not really drawing to men.
Again, that's not an excuse, but I think we do have to own, are we doing that?
Is that true?
I don't think it's fully true, but I think we also have to go, okay, we got to think
about that.

(23:20):
You know, when you look at men, most men, when they're going to have a deep conversation,
are not going to do it in a large group of other guys because of vulnerability.
That's not to say that we don't need to make those opportunities, but I think that means

(23:42):
we need to make sure that we're making opportunity for those, for our building relationships so
that, you know, when we're fishing, you know, me and another guy or me and a couple guys,
you know, Jeff over here can go, hey, Brad, so I really struggling in my marriage.

(24:08):
So if we talk about that, we're waiting on the catfish to bite.
You know, and he's not going to present like that.
We're like, hey, you know what, me and the wife are just, we've been having some problems.
And I, you know, I see those conversations generally and I would agree.

(24:28):
I have those conversations when I'm in a very small group of men or I'm pulled aside on
a one-on-one where it's just me and somebody else because it's hard for us to be vulnerable
and we need to be vulnerable.
So as the church and as other men, as we're maturing in our faith, we need to make sure

(24:53):
we are setting up instances and places in the ability for other men to be vulnerable
to us and where we don't abuse that.
And I also like, I would like to tag on that guys, even, I mean, even me to a certain extent,

(25:16):
depending on what the situation is, depending on who's around.
I think guys, number one, are willing to be more vulnerable.
And let's speak like universally, because I don't want to talk about like introverts
versus extroverts that that'll muddy up the waters.

(25:37):
But by and large, guys will tend to be more vulnerable if in fact they're doing something
with another man, fishing, building a structure, you know, like, like,
Right, I'm going to go a step farther.
If they're doing something that is fulfilling that need to be macho, right?

(26:06):
I've had some great conversations with guys in the white room.
Huh.
That's a cool little spin.
Because when you're throwing just iron and just up, you feel manly and it's okay to
feel manly if you're a man, right?
You're supposed to feel manly.

(26:27):
So so I can feel manly, which then I think in some ways maybe freeze us up to be a little
bit more vulnerable, right?
Because we still have an opportunity to to and this is this is to appease our own psyche.
Right.
And we have we still have the opportunity to show how manly we are, even if we start
to be vulnerable.

(26:48):
Yeah.
And again, we're we're not saying is that right or wrong?
We're not even asking that question right now.
Nope.
Right.
What we're what we're trying to say is how can we be more mature Christians and and give
other men the opportunity to to be vulnerable with us, but but also us be vulnerable with

(27:12):
them.
Yeah.
Because yeah, I want to say what if I'm pressing up, you know, especially if you know, I'm
with somebody and I can outbench them, you know, and I'm benching more than you.
Okay.
Now I'm probably feeling a little more comfortable telling you this is the area I struggle with.
Right.

(27:33):
At least I can bench more than you.
You can, Brad.
You can bench more than me.
I can bench more than you.
I have, however, lifted weights with a lot of guys where that was not the case.
That is that is actually the that's the majority of the narrative for me.
And right now, because like I am off my weight restrictions.

(27:55):
It was just, you know, that ended yesterday.
So 10 pounds first two weeks.
Yeah.
The surgery, right?
But I'm pretty sure I'm not supposed to go to the weight room today and just be like,
let me see what I can max out.
Right.
I'm like, it's back, baby.
Yeah.
So, you know, slow.
So yeah, so I could probably go about 15 or 20 right now.

(28:20):
That's funny.
15 or 20 pounds.
Everybody wants to go.
Brad can even lift the bar right now.
That's right.
So I hear that the, at least I perceive anyways that the conversation has kind of almost
moved towards iron sharpening iron situations like, you know, so so quasi community.

(28:45):
So in in your experience, Brad, let me ask a general question.
And I don't want it to be a leading question because I actually don't want it to be one
though it might.
In your experience, have you seen more men or more women show and act on desperation

(29:10):
for God?
Show and act on desperation for God.
Yeah.
In my experience.
All right.
Well, give me, yeah, give me your experience.
In my experience.
I think it's the way that you phrased it that my brain's kind of.

(29:32):
Yeah.
In my experience.
And it's again, thinking about thinking about the like, how does this manifest in a put
in the, I'll say in the in the public, the public center, the public square and by public
I'm referring to like church communities, outreach and stuff like that.
I have seen by and large.

(29:53):
That men don't show desperation like women do.
Okay, yeah.
I would say that typically, typically, women are more comfortable expressing their emotions.
I think for everybody, there's a level of I don't want to appear desperate or weak.

(30:18):
But I think again that women tend to be, and I think they're designed to be on the more
emotional side.
It doesn't mean that we don't have emotions because we do.
It doesn't mean we're not supposed to use them guys because we are.
And I know that when you're like, well, look, I've talked to you, Brad, or I've seen you
and seen your face.
You should tell your face that I try.

(30:40):
I tried to tell my face that it doesn't listen.
Trust me.
Like the, the, the irony is I am such an emotional guy.
I have such deep.
It's actually true.
Yes, it is.
Emotions.
Yeah.
I care so deeply.
I have such empathy that sometimes I really even struggle because I've got to lay those

(31:03):
things that Jesus has to speak because I can emotionally carry like all of these hurts
and stuff for others.
So I've got to own sometimes externally that I'm feeling that way because you won't see
it.
That's right.
Once, I mean, it's got to be pretty extreme for you to see it.

(31:23):
And then even then when I'm feeling like, oh my goodness, I was just a mess and it was
a wreck and man.
And it's like, oh, well, we have a video of it and you're like, yeah, yeah.
That was heartfelt.
Yeah.
Brad is, Brad is on the, on the inside listeners.
Brad's emotions can actually become debilitating, but on the outside, he's pretty stoically

(31:49):
neutral.
Yeah.
I mean, high, high, high and lows.
Comes in handy.
Sometimes it doesn't because sometimes people perceive that as uncaring and just harsh and
hard.
And, you know, when those accusations have been made of me before, my wife laughs.

(32:12):
She's like, they don't know you at all.
Do they?
Yeah.
They just missed about how they just missed how excited you actually were.
They missed it.
Well, they missed, they missed the fact that you were, that you were trying to be the most
empathetic person in the room.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, but yeah, I would say that, you know, getting kind of back to your question that

(32:33):
I think, I think that it's more acceptable in our psyche, in our society, especially in
our psyche for women to express that.
Now the gospel says that we're all broken.

(32:57):
We're all sinful.
We all need Jesus.
Yeah.
And we all need to bring our, you know, except Christ's invitation that he has done it because
we can't because we can't be strong enough and we can't be good enough and all this.
And I think that's hard for a man, but I think what we need to do is continue to adjust the

(33:18):
narrative in ourselves and in others that we have to redefine manhood by what God does.
So, I'm going to interrupt you and I do think that I totally agree that we need to redefine
manhood the way that God does.
But again, because I'm a behaviorist.
You don't think we can do that in the next four minutes?

(33:39):
No, I don't think so, no.
But I also think, Brad, that there really is a, and this comes back to kind of where
the conversation a couple minutes ago had gone, there does need to be a community aspect
approach to us redefining the way, the manhood, the way that God defines it.

(34:04):
So I have a theory and it's only a theory, it's not provable at all.
I know it's not.
Not music theory, though.
It is not music theory, but it is a theory.
I don't know anything about that.
I know you don't.
But it's a theory about music.
My theory is this, the reason, I actually think the primary reason that men don't sing

(34:27):
in church or not lots of men sing in church is because their dads didn't sing in church.
No.
That's not a universal.
I totally accept it.
I know that that's not a universal.
But dude, I mean, you pandores box right there.
So let me say, let me say this and then I'm going to give it back to you because I'll

(34:49):
take over.
Well, I've been listening to some OC Supertones here recently and I guess I'm the one who
unlocked the locks on pandores box.
Our father for most of us is and is supposed to be right.
Our example of manhood.

(35:10):
But our father, no matter how good or bad he was, right, was not the perfect example.
So we've got our paradigm, the way that we see things and the way that they're supposed
to be.
Right.
And we're getting that or we should have gotten that from our father.
But then we have to guess as men who are or believers, we have to go and look at at Jesus,

(35:37):
right, and look at the biblical model of manhood and where our dad got it right, we go, OK,
I'm going to keep that.
And where our dad got it wrong, we need to work on, OK, I need to get rid of that.
Yeah.
And we've got to and we've got to shift.
So running toward a cliff.

(36:00):
So I'm going to cliff.
Yeah, I want to get there.
I want to unless there's a really cool jump into water, into water.
So I want to add something to like to the thought about, you know, so my theory again
is why don't men why don't a lot of men sing in church because their dads do not sing in

(36:23):
church?
I also think that there isn't that there's another external component to this.
So, you know, if if we need to redefine Brad, if we need to redefine manhood, the way that
God defines manhood, being vulnerable, being being open, being honest, repenting, repenting,

(36:48):
leading, I mean, like all of all of the whatever kind of whatever kind of bullet list we make.
Which which can I say none of that makes us less.
It really makes us more.
Correct.
Yes, absolutely.
But go ahead.
But I also think that there is an external component that if Satan doesn't prevent actually

(37:10):
men from being in church, he can prevent men from doing anything based upon their external
the external components.
And here's why I said.
I don't think he can prevent either.
But I think we can let him.
Well, well, we can let him.
Yes.
Yeah.
But I mean, but like the again, thinking about thinking about like the the external thinking

(37:35):
about how how groups operate and if one person in the group need like identifies that there
needs to be a change.
Let's start changing it.
I mean, they got a really they got a big uphill battle more than likely because the rest of
the group is unaware that that something needs to be changed, which is why I looked up running

(37:57):
towards a cliff.
C.S. Lewis has a quote when the whole world is running towards a cliff, he who is running
in the opposite direction appears to have lost his mind.
Yep.
Now, here's here's why I say that because if I think if a if if if one or two or even

(38:19):
three guys realizes some things, some things need to change about about godly manhood.
And again, like, I don't even really know how to just like concretely outline that.
And that might be a good a good thing for us to try to do at a later date.
But it's not that they it's not just that they have to kind of get the courage to act

(38:49):
on it, but they have to get the courage to act on it among a large group of other guys
who are either a unaware that things need to change or be unwilling to to to change
things because it may go against.

(39:10):
They're either a individual perceived notion of what manhood is or be what the group's
definition of manhood is.
You know, so so so if if a pastor, Brad, if a pastor is saying like what you said, the
more vulnerable that we are, the more manly we become, the more that we lean on Jesus,

(39:32):
the more that we ask for his Holy Spirit, the more that we repent of our sins, the more
manly we become.
It's not that well, that must be true because the pastor said it.
The group, the like the social structure, guys now have to figure out, all right, how
do I agree with that?

(39:55):
But still almost or still still reach to me anyways, retain my manhood while it appears
that I'm not running towards a cliff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so I think one of the things that so I had a class in the morning.
In high school.

(40:16):
And one of the things that I learned in it, they were talking about behavior of a group.
Right.
And there are specific example of this woman who this man had basically stopped traffic
on this bridge.
There was a lot of people around.
He was beating up.
It was like his girlfriend and her ex girlfriend.

(40:39):
You should try to leave him beaten her up.
There's like 20 plus people around and nobody is doing anything because everybody is expecting
for someone else to do something.
And they've studied this phenomenon that this will happen.

(41:00):
But what happens to change that?
And this is the awesome part, DJ.
Statistically, when you look at these and they study these scenarios, if one person
stands up and I know oftentimes when we're in a scenario like that, we're going like,

(41:21):
I'm going to be alone.
Right.
Well, statistically, you're wrong.
If one person stands up, that that changes the scenario of the onlookers because very
rarely is that the only person that will follow suit because most people are waiting for someone
else.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But are willing to step in and make a difference.

(41:47):
So I think we've got to seek to one, to be that guy that acknowledges, hey, what Jimmy
over here just said hurt Bill.
And I can see that and I need to be discerning in the situation because there's sometimes

(42:11):
I what I need to do.
And I will tell you one of the things that I run to, right, because it's a safer place
for me to do is self depreciating humor.
Right.
If Jimmy just said something and I see that Bill felt less because he said something that

(42:35):
was perceived as silly or whatever.
And I know Jimmy's heart.
Jimmy was just trying to give him a hard time as a guy.
He wasn't trying to hurt him.
But you know, I'm all pat, you know, and Bill on the back and I'm like, man, you should
have heard me last week.
You know, I know you weren't here in service, but you go back and watch a video.

(42:57):
You know, I fumbled that same kind of thing like three times.
Like I went to say this day and I said, this may.
Man, it ain't even May.
It's August.
But you know, I'm going to turn that now.

(43:19):
Bill has opportunity to go.
Oh, okay.
Let's just laugh about it.
I see.
You know, and you know, oh, Jimmy wasn't even just maybe he was getting mad at Jimmy and
he was hurt and hey, he's going to take that everywhere.
But if we are seeing those things and we are lovingly, you know, sometimes we don't need

(43:40):
to go, hey, hey, Billy, you just hurt Jimmy's feelings.
That just makes it worse sometimes.
You got to know the situation.
You got to know the people.
Which goes to my thing.
I think one of the things DJ, this is for me, is just overarching is guys, we need to
have friendships and brotherhood with other men.

(44:04):
And let's do stuff together and let's live together so that so that we're creating this
where we can be vulnerable together, where we know each other.
So when I say something and it hurts your feelings, one, hopefully I can see that and
then go from there.
You know, so, oh, hey, DJ, look earlier when I said that man, I think maybe it hurt you,

(44:27):
you know, or maybe it rubbed you the wrong way.
That wasn't what I meant to do at all.
Right.
I'm sorry.
Or so that you can go, hey, Brad, you know, when you said that earlier, I know you probably
didn't mean to.
Right.
But man, that really is stunned.
Yeah.
And not in a good way, you know, like I felt like you were.

(44:50):
You're putting me down and and then we can have that discussion or whatever.
But if we're doing life together, just, you know, I think what intimidate Satan, biblical
community.
Yeah, because you can't control the community in Christ.
And again, at the end of the day, it ain't us that's intimidating.

(45:10):
It's he's intimidated by our God.
Yeah.
But when we are living in community with God and community with one another, he knows how
powerful that is.
He's seen it throughout the ages.
He knows, yes, I think of an impact that it can make.
Oh, we got to we got to sniff, nip this in the bud, because like Christian are getting
saved.
You know, like Christian Christian mob mentality against Satan.

(45:34):
Like, yeah, he can't he can't change like generational chains will be broken.
If I let that happen, yeah, like we got to snuff that.
So the way that I word it, or the word that I use, Brad, to to kind of, you know, illuminate
what what both of us are talking about in these group settings is in coming back to,

(45:59):
you know, the the the research studies that you were talking about, as long as one person
is willing to to step up.
What that gives the group, at least in that situation, and I will say, I have seen the
fruits of this in a in a church setting.

(46:21):
If no one stands up or no one no one steps out or no one no one tries to lead as as an
example of, you know, what what should godly manhood do?
Like, how do we how do we how do we act on that?
If one person does, it actually begins to communicate to the group, you have permission

(46:43):
to do this.
And the the scary thing for me, and this is this is my personality speaking, I don't
like I'm not speaking for like psychologically here, this is just me.
The way that I perceive it is I don't know.
Or my sorry, my my fears would tell me, DJ, you're not the person that has the power to

(47:11):
give permission to the group.
You've got to wait on you've got to wait on somebody else that, you know, has been here
longer or that everybody else likes more something like that, which actually is completely bogus.
It is.
It is like it's the person it's the person like so.
So C.S. Lewis's C.S. Lewis's analogy.

(47:33):
Like if you continue that, that one person that's running away from the cliff, yeah,
actually has way more influence than every single person that doesn't.
Yep.
And so here's it gets me excited, DJ.
This is why I'm like, I'm bubbling over here trying to let you finish.
Yeah.

(47:54):
And like Brad is like smiling with twinkles in his eyes.
So we are not doing these things in our strength and our authority.
When I get up and I preach on Sunday, right?
And if I preach God's word and it convicts you, that's not me.

(48:18):
Right.
That's God through his word.
Now, he's used me to preach it.
Right.
He encourages you.
Guess what?
Also, that's not me.
I'm glad that God used me.
But I'm speaking from his authority.
This is also why my wife can turn around and did a couple of weeks ago on a Monday morning

(48:38):
when I was struggling and going, I think you need to go back and listen to the sermon from
yesterday, which by the way, guys, I was the one who had preached.
Yeah.
Right.
And I looked at her and I said, yeah, I probably do.
Because it wasn't because I had come up with her sense because I was preaching God's truth

(48:59):
that I needed to own deeper and by own life.
Yeah.
And I will tell you, sometimes as a pastor, I hate that because I'm like, darn it.
Dang it.
Tell me to listen to somebody else's sermon.
No, no, no.
I have to go listen to the one I just preached.
I can't stand eating humble pie.
It doesn't taste good.
But we can be that guy who stands up and runs back away from the cliff in the group because

(49:23):
we're doing so.
Paul said, follow me, right?
Or imitate me.
I imitate Christ.
Why?
Because I'm imitating Christ.
That's right.
But in the ways that I am being Christ like, you be Christ like.
So Paul's not saying be Paul like.
He's saying no.
In the ways that I'm being Christ like, you be Christ like.

(49:45):
And to, you know, not to, not to, to belabor it, but I mean, to come back to C.S. Lewis's
metaphor.
What we don't know is in that particular situation, we don't know who that person is
because for all we know, that person actually was running towards the cliff too.

(50:06):
And they may have, they may have turned around.
And when that happens, like that will stun the audience.
That will stun.
And, and, and it will, at minimum, it would get, it would get conversations happening
with people that are running towards that cliff.
And so, so guys include like I said, I'm speaking.

(50:29):
It doesn't matter if you're 14.
No, oh, I know.
You can be 14 sitting in a Bible study with a bunch of older men and you be, and you be,
and you be very humble and you be very loving.
But you go, hey.
But how does this, like I was just reading in like Romans.
Right.
And what you guys are saying, like, how does that make sense with what, what Paul said

(50:52):
here in Romans?
And hopefully what happens is they go all over, well, what do you mean?
Well, Romans this, this, and cool.
And they, and you see this look and they go, oh, huh.
And maybe they were wrong.
Yeah.
On that aspect.
I'm trying to remember where it is in scripture, but, but do not let, do not let people mock

(51:16):
your youth.
Oh, as Paul talking to Timothy says, don't let anybody look down on you because of your
youth.
Yeah.
You be an example.
And I'll tell you, like as a young Christian, as a young man, fallen Christ, I clung to
that verse many times.
Because I was like, there's times when you have to gently go, hey guys, I've been reading

(51:39):
the Bible and this thing that we've been saying and doing, I don't think it's biblical.
Yeah.
So maybe we need to take a harder look at that and go, oh, yeah, we need to get rid of
that.
Right.
But you know what happens when we do, you know what happens when we follow God in God's

(52:00):
way.
And I say it gets easier because sometimes it gets harder, but it, but it's freeing.
Yeah.
It will free our spirit.
It will free or free up our joy and our peace.
And if it is in fact true that all things work or God works all things together for,

(52:22):
for his good and for the glory of his kingdom.
It is listener.
Yes, it is true.
I know.
But listener, I would say, excuse me.
I would argue that us standing up for what is right, us showing that biblical manhood,
again, however, however we define that, if we stand up or when we stand up, it may actually

(52:49):
not even be mostly for us.
Sometimes it is, but sometimes it's to get the ripple started so that God can use us
as the example to get other people moving.
And I think that's like, I certainly don't want to, I mean, we're out of time here, but

(53:10):
I don't want to open up the box, but I do feel that I need to say this, that one of
the things, one of the, the really the debilitating characteristics of secular masculinity is that
it is isolated to the individual, how manly are you, irregardless of how manly other people

(53:36):
are.
And that is not scriptural.
Because we are made for community and we are made, we are made to follow Christ's lead
so that other people will be inspired or will be curious or whatever.
And the Holy Spirit can in fact impact because, well, I guess technically because at that

(54:01):
point in time we are being fishers of men in that way.
So, but listener, men specifically love Jesus, follow his, follow his lead.
Yeah, we're going to screw up.
We suck at life.
I mean, we really do.

(54:22):
And, and, and John Wayne it, okay.
John Wayne said courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway.
And doing it anyways.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so listeners as usual, we love that you love our show, share our show, tell people
about our show, um, rate our show.

(54:43):
Um, if you, if you haven't rated our show yet, take five seconds and go rate it.
Right now we have 14.
Right now we have 14 ratings.
I like, let's, let's get that number way up.
Um, go, go, go rate our show.
If you don't even want to review it, don't, but we would love, we would love your review,
but go rate the show, go rate the show.

(55:04):
Um, share the show, uh, let people know about it.
You can follow us on our Facebook group.
And be honest with your view, you know, you're like, these guys are crazy.
Yeah, let us know.
They're nuts.
Yeah.
Um, because we don't want to get people the wrong idea.
That's right.
They're very calm and collected.
No, no, no, no, no, no.

(55:26):
Um, uh, you can also follow us on Instagram, um, which I don't use much.
So my apologies because I like, I really, I'm just going to say, I really, I just, I think
social media is dumb, but whatever.
Um, it shows that shows like how, how detached I am from pop culture.

(55:46):
But, uh, yeah, contact us, talk to us, um, Facebook us, let us know that you're out there.
Let us know what you think.
If you want us to talk about something, um, but beyond that, Brad, I love you, buddy.
Love you too.
Listeners, we will catch you next time.
A