May 28, 2025 • 23 mins
What happens when a legal scholar rides shotgun with police—and builds trust with sex workers—on the streets of Johannesburg?
Professor India Thusi spent nearly two years embedded in both worlds. The result? A radical inside look at how policing really works—and why the criminalisation of sex work does more harm than good.
In this episode, she shares the story of being detained during her research, the power dynamics it exposed, and what her journey from Yonkers to Johannesburg taught her about justice, race, and reform.
If you care about policing, power, or what it means to build safety in society—this conversation will shift something in you.
Contact India online here
Follow me on Instagram: @merilyn
Website: merilyn.com
Join the Tall Poppy Society
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello there and welcome to the show.
Today I'm talking with a verytall poppy, india Thusi.
India is a professor of law atthe Indiana University.
She's a lecturer and herresearch examines social
hierarchies related to policing,race, gender and sexual
behavior.
Honestly, releasing thisepisode now, with what's going
(00:22):
on in the world, is incrediblytimely.
Welcome to the show, india,thank you.
Thanks for having me.
There's human rights issues allover the world, and especially
in your home country of the USA.
So why South Africa?
Why have you based much of yourresearch there?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I first came to South Africa while I was a student
and I was interested in SouthAfrica because there was this
firm commitment to embracinghuman rights after apartheid.
The constitution is viewed asbeing very progressive.
I was a law student interestedin human rights issues and so I
became really interested inSouth Africa and doing research
(01:04):
there and I went back and so Idid research that really focused
on the policing institution andsome of the challenges of
reforming a police institutionthat was really the enforcement
arm of apartheid into aninstitution that would now exist
in this human rights framework.
That would now exist in thishuman rights framework.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
When did you know that this kind of work was your
thing, your wow, the thing thatlit you up, the cause that you
wanted to pursue?
What's the story there?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer when I was
pretty young and then, likeeveryone in my family was
disappointed.
I didn't want to be like adoctor that's kind of like what
they would push people to tryand do but I just wanted to be a
lawyer and I think maybe isjust a commitment to fairness
(01:57):
and, you know, having that, evenas a young person, kind of
thinking in that sort of way.
But it was something that youknow stayed with me.
Even in high school I did likethe mock trial team and I
interned for my city court.
I grew up in Yonkers, new York,and so I interned for the court
there and through college youknow I knew I was interested in
(02:20):
doing like civil rights type ofwork and so you know I guess
it's just something that'sstayed with me.
How I ended up doing myparticular type of work actually
is it's been, I guess, anunexpected journey in some ways,
and so you know I do research.
I've done research on thepolicing of sex workers, so it's
(02:40):
not a topic I thought I'd everdo research on.
Part of what got me interestedin policing is just seeing some
inequities in the criminalsystem and thinking about ways
to address them and how you canbring a human rights
understanding to address theseissues, police as a way of
(03:07):
looking at the criminal system.
But as I was doing my researchand I had just moved to South
Africa, I actually clerked forthe constitutional court, which
is like their Supreme Court ortheir highest court in South
Africa, and I was doing theresearch and I started to hear
these stories about, you know,sex workers who were having
these really violent encounterswith the police, and I decided
(03:27):
to investigate it a little bitfurther, and I noticed there
wasn't much research that wasfocused on policing and police
as an institution that looked atsex work or really anything
that had an impact specific tomostly women or that were that
focused on gender, and so Ithought it would be an
interesting place to look atthese different, you know, ideas
(03:49):
around.
You know what it means to be apolice officer who is, you know,
policing women who you knowmaybe don't fit into some of the
norms in dominant society.
What are some of the tensionsthere?
And then, in this country,where police have this
affirmative duty to respecteveryone's human rights and it's
in the Constitution and theConstitutional Court has, you
(04:09):
know, found that what like?
What does the policing actuallylook like?
And so it just presented allthese really interesting and
unique issues that I didn't findwas really being discussed.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Do the police love you or hate you?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
was really being discussed.
Do the police love you or hateyou?
I don't know At this point.
You know I wouldn't be shockedif you know some hated me.
But you know, as I was doing myresearch, I did have to find a
way to build relationship withpolice officers.
So the way that I did myresearch is, you know, I'm an
anthropologist, so I'm a lawyerand I'm also an anthropologist,
(04:48):
and you know, one of the mainways that anthropologists do
research is by doing fields workand engaging in what we call
participant observation, whereyou're participating in what's
happening in the scene butyou're mostly like really
observing over time what'shappening in a particular place.
And so I was working with bothpolice and sex workers over the
(05:10):
course of close to two years,observing like their
interactions, observing policeas they were going on patrols,
and so during that process I hadto develop relationships.
I had a regular police officerpartner who I became pretty
close with.
Now, how they would interpretmy findings or what their
thoughts are about it, likeafter the fact I'm not entirely
(05:33):
certain.
But you know these are justhuman beings.
You know people who recognizesome of the limitations of what
they're doing and that there'sroom for things to be really
changed.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
You wrote a book called Policing Bodies.
What was the motivation behindthat?
What drove you and what's thatpassion that's gripped you
through doing that book?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
The book is really telling the story of policing in
Johannesburg and the policingof sex work, but it has insights
that are really relevant aswe're at this moment where, in a
lot of countries and a lot ofcities and societies, people are
thinking about what is theappropriate role for police.
We know that there are theserisks of having violent
(06:17):
encounters, and so what shouldthe relationship be with police,
particularly when they'redealing with more vulnerable
communities or more marginalizedgroups?
And so you know what this bookdoes it's looking at how the
policing of sex work occurs inJohannesburg, and I was able to
get access to both the policeofficers.
So police are doing the work.
(06:37):
It took about a year just toget that research approval and,
you know, go in the patrol carwith them, sit with them as
they're in the police station,get their perspective on it, as
well as do research with sexworkers and their perspective of
the policing.
And so I did interviews, I didparticipant observation, which
meant, you know, I'd often go onthese 12 hour patrols and I
(07:00):
would see officers as they'repolicing sex work, because I
chose locations that had sexwork hotspots.
But I also saw them as theywere pulling people over.
There were high speed chases.
There were a lot of otherthings, things that were
occurring as they were justengaging in ordinary policing,
and so that ends up being, youknow, part of what I observed as
(07:21):
well.
And you know, with the sexworkers, you know I observed
them while they were working andthere were some that I, you
know, developed somerelationships with, where you
know we would go out socially,you know, and other times when
they weren't actually activelyworking, and just speak about
some of their challenges, speakabout their family backgrounds,
(07:41):
and you know what brought theminto this and what their
experiences have been.
And so you know, from doingthis, you know research.
I wrote this book that provides, you know, these different
perspectives from groups thatare often thought of as being in
opposition with each other, andyou know, in direct conflict,
and just provide this account of.
You know how the policing ofsex work occurs and what are
(08:04):
some of the insights that we cantake from it that apply broadly
as we examine the role ofpolicing.
And you know I also, you know,look at questions about.
You know feminism too, becausethere have been a lot of
feminist arguments about.
you know whether prostitutionshould be legal or not, and you
know some of this has beendescribed, as you know, some of
(08:24):
the like old sex wars thatoccurred within feminism.
And you know, what I was tryingto do here is like do some
grounded research, like reallylook at how it was occurring and
look to see what would be morebeneficial for sex workers, like
what would actually improvepeople's lives, not necessarily
to take like a political stance,because I think you know,
(08:46):
before I started really engagingin this project and writing the
book, I didn't have aparticular standpoint on it.
I was pretty agnostic about thewhole thing.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
What's been the reception of the book and who
reads it?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yeah, it's been really great, you know it's been
.
It's been interesting becauseit's been a pretty broad
audience.
So it's people who have beenfocused on like gender type of
issues, like feminists, orpeople who are like actively
engaged in that debate.
I've gotten people who are justfocused on like policing issues
, some people who are just whatI would consider consider to be
(09:22):
like activists focused on likeracial justice and scholars in
that area, and then and then,just like I've been on some you
know I was like on the gistrecently just like some other
kind of audiences that Iwouldn't necessarily expect to
have shown some interest.
So it's, it's been good.
It's been good, you know, justmeeting a lot of different
people and just, you know,hearing like why people are
(09:45):
interested, because it's beendifferent things.
Sometimes it's, you know, theyknow someone who was a sex
worker and they were justcurious to you know, hear an
account of it.
Sometimes it's just, you know,they think, you know, maybe
they're a person who's generallyconservative and they're also a
libertarian and they want tolearn.
You know, like what are some ofthe arguments against more
(10:05):
criminalization or against more,you know, government
interventions?
And then sometimes there's likesuper progressive people who
think that you know, we shouldjust support everyone and you
know, and the like, and so it'sactually been pretty diverse in
terms of the people I've beenable to speak to about the book.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
You're operating in a world that has got that sexism
and you're stepping out as aleader in this space.
How has that journey been foryou?
I mean, you've got that veryclever research hat on, almost,
so you probably see that youopen doors that others in an
activist role probably don't.
(10:46):
But what have you seen?
What any stories you can tell?
Or how do you feel when I callyou a leader in this space?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I guess I hadn't really thought of myself in that
way, but I think that it's true, it's.
You know, I tried to be reallydeliberate with the research and
have all these footnotes, butyou know, maybe some of it is
known that you know, without it,the history and as well as
contemporary things that areoccurring, as well as theory,
and so you know, just providingthat support and making sure
(11:25):
that you know I was being prettythorough and what I was doing
was really important for me andI think you know, kind of lays
the foundation for other workthat I'll be doing right and
where I might not, you know, useas many footnotes but still
have that work already out thereand you know, be able to
establish myself as an expertalready because I've written
this book.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So what's next, India ?
What's the movement you want tocreate?
What's the revolution thatyou're creating?
Come on, you can't tell me.
There's something in this, notsomething in that.
I mean, look at your hair,which we're going to talk about.
There's a rebel in you.
Tell us what movement are youcreating, what change are you
going to create in the next, say, five years?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I would want for the decriminalisation of sex work to
be taken more seriously, becomemore of a topic of discussion.
More of a topic of discussionpublic discourse is for people
to really consider the harmsthat criminalization brings to
sex workers is counterproductive.
You know, there's so muchpolice resources expended on it,
(12:27):
people end up getting arrestedand then released and arrested
and released, and this is thecase in South Africa, it's the
case in the US, it's the case inAustralia, it's the case like
pretty much you know most placeswhere you have this cycle,
where you know criminalizationof sex workers has just not been
effective.
(12:47):
It just hasn't met the goalsthat are stated.
That is intended to me and sofor me, I think that would be a
really important thing that I'dlike to see and I think it could
be done with an active movement, with organizing.
I think it could be done wherethis is taken, like seriously
and we're moving toward adecriminalization, use police,
(13:20):
like you know, what I observed,which was interesting, was that
even for innocent encountersbecause you're dealing with you
know officer who's been trainedto, you know kill, that is armed
small encounters can veryquickly escalate right, and so
you can create the situationswhere violence can occur where
you actually didn't even need anofficer to be present to begin
(13:40):
with.
So, really, just reexaminingthe ways that we use the police,
in a lot of communities in theUS, especially in South Africa,
you have it where the police endup, for example, not being
trained and being able toidentify if someone's having
like a mental health crisis orsomething, and then end up like
killing someone where maybe adifferent professional would
(14:02):
have taken a different approachright, and so really, you know,
pushing that forward in terms ofyou know how we're using police
in society is something elseyou know.
I'd also, you know, like to see.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Because in some quarters and it's it's so big,
you know, with the death ofGeorge Floyd, and you know, the
things that go on police aresometimes seen as the enemy and
to be feared, aren't they?
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, you know, I think like for some communities,
they've experienced so muchpolice violence or negative
interactions that when they seethe police, they don't see
someone who's there to bringthem safety.
They've seen someone who'sthere, might have experienced
(14:54):
similar things or arere-experiencing.
You know what they saw lastweek?
Right, we didn't have the videofor that.
Maybe the person had died, theywere just severely injured,
right.
But, like you know, when youhave that, it becomes part of
the fabric of that community,and so the way that they
experience policing is not justas a public good, it ends up
being a source of violence sothe work that you're doing is
(15:18):
phenomenal, like if it can makea change in the way society
perceives police, the way policesystems work.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
look, I just encourage you to just go for the
moon.
It's exciting what you're doingand it's fascinating,
absolutely fascinating, and, canI say, brave.
You're very brave in what youdo.
Do you feel sometimes a littlebit scared in what you do?
Have you had any experiencesthat go?
Oh my gosh, that was close yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Yeah, there have been times where it's you know,
things have felt where when I'vebeen nervous or afraid.
There's there's this one momentas I was doing my research and
I speak a bit about it in thebook.
So I was doing research withthe police and sex workers.
At this point I had alreadyformed close relationships with
sex workers and closerelationships with the police.
(16:11):
However, a different policedepartment had come into the
community, like they didn'tordinary police this area.
But it came into that area andthey had just rounded up a bunch
of people, didn't arrest them,or they said they weren't
arrested but wouldn't let themgo.
And some of the sex workerscalled me and I went there and
when I went there I asked themyou know what was going on.
(16:33):
It was pretty close to where Ilived because I lived in the
community.
And when I spoke to after Ifinished speaking to the sex
workers to see what washappening, I went to leave and
the officers wouldn't let me goand so they just kind of blocked
me in that area and I asked Iwas like am I arrested?
And they're like no, but we'llput handcuffs on you.
(16:53):
I was like, oh, my goodness, soit was.
Yeah, that was such a closecall, you know.
I ended up finding a way to kindof like sneak out.
But you know, I just knew Idefinitely did not want to be
arrested and it was definitely amoment that you know kind of
illustrated for me.
You know, there is some dangerwhen you, when you're doing this
(17:16):
research, and especially whenyou're forming really close
relationships with people andwho are, you know, participating
in your research, because youknow, the lines between me being
a researcher versus a friendstarted to blur at times.
So you know the fact thatthey're calling me it was like
two in the morning and I just,you know, kind of pop up and go
like if it were, you know, justone of my friends.
(17:37):
I'm going to like help out withsomething and you know you
created a bit of a dangeroussituation for me.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
What has been the most difficult part of writing
your book and doing the workthat you do?
What?
What's the?
What do you find hard?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
The interesting thing for me.
But what I find difficult ismaking sure like staying
motivated to really like sharethe research and, you know, go
out there and like work towardthat world I want to work toward
in a concrete way, because forme it's easy for me to kind of
(18:11):
like go into the books, into theresearch or even into the field
and just think about my nextproject and jump to the next
thing and jump to the next thing.
And for me it's really alsothinking about, like you know,
the, the, the market, marketingstrategy and like really making
sure that I'm prioritizing thatjust as much as I'm prioritizing
like the substance, because itcan be easy, especially for
(18:33):
professors, um, to just thinkabout like the research part and
then like just, you know, leavethe book in the shelf somewhere
, and I'm really trying not todo that what's your next book
going to be about?
I think my next book actuallymight be a memoir about growing
up in Yonkers, new York, andreally just focus on, like, my
high school years.
(18:53):
And you know, yonkers is prettyinteresting because I didn't
know at the time but the schoolthat I school district I went to
actually what has wascategorized as being racially
segregated and they had thisdesegregation order that was
being monitored during that time, and so you know, there I
(19:14):
experienced a lot of the effectsof that without realizing it
while I was at school and sojust kind of re-examining and
also tracking like what washappening with that case at the
same time I think would be likea fun project for me to do.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
How did you escape that?
As sane as?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
How did you escape that?
As sane and as together as youare, or hasn?
In some ways, I feel like it'smade me just kind of appreciate
certain things better and justhave to be competent in ways
that maybe other just doingwhatever needs to be done to get
to where I need to get to atevery step and just trying to
like exude, you know, confidenceand competence which is, you
know, been important and in someways, you know, those
(20:19):
experiences have actually beenbeneficial to me, because I know
, you know, I think sometimespeople walk away from certain
challenges or, you know, aren'twilling to take certain risks,
challenges, or, you know, aren'twilling to, you know, take
certain risks and for me I am,I'm not afraid of them because I
feel like I've seen worse orI've been through worse.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Who has influenced you to be who you are, dead or
alive?
Who or who do you admire?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
You know I don't often say this, but I think you
know my mom has actually beenquite an inspiration for me just
in terms of always beingconfident and you know, going
through all my different crazyphases and being supportive
despite them and other people Iadmire I think you know
Catherine Dunham is this wasthis anthropologist and dancer
and I guess I just reallyadmired her ability to like
(21:07):
bring both of her interests intothe research and work that she
was doing.
And you know she developed this.
You know dance style, the denimtechnique, and you know I've
always been interested in danceas well, and so she was someone
who really inspired me.
Like you don't have to just fitinto one box, you can be
(21:28):
different things and their waysto kind of merge your different
interests, and so she's been aninspiration for me as well.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
India.
It's been so good chatting withyou and getting to know you.
I find your work fascinatingand, as I said before, I think
you're very brave and I think Itruly hope the best for you that
you really break down walls andsmash through more ceilings, so
yay.
But I want you to projectyourself into the future now,
(21:54):
and I've been asking thisquestion at the end of my recent
series and I want to ask it ofyou at the end of your life,
what could I show off about you?
What would be the greatesthonor?
What?
What would you love your lifeto have ever achieved?
What would make you smile?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I guess I like to think that I help form different
communities of people who areinterested in making this world
better.
Um, you know, whether it'sthrough different workshops,
conferences, just bringingpeople together, my friends and
you know just being having agood, fantastic life and just
(22:33):
working together to try to makethis world a little bit better,
that's, that's, I think, whatI'd like.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
It's brilliant, and if there's one thing that you
could change about the world inyour lifetime, what would it be?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
There would be no racial injustice.
Wouldn't that be great?
That would be even more societylet's hope we see it in our
lifetime.
And no sexism too.
Oh, wouldn't that be no sexism.
Thank you, I've really beenenjoying the conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Thank you so have I and thank you for your time.
All the best in johannesburgand I can't wait you should be.
I can't wait to look out andsee you in the news someday.
A lot more, I really do believe.
A bigger platform for you andall the best.
I admire you and I honour youfor the work you're doing in the
world.
Thank you, thank you so muchThank you.
Hello there and welcome to the show.
Today I'm talking with a verytall poppy, india Thusi.
India is a professor of law atthe Indiana University.
She's a lecturer and herresearch examines social
hierarchies related to policing,race, gender and sexual
behavior.
Honestly, releasing thisepisode now, with what's going
(00:22):
on in the world, is incrediblytimely.
Welcome to the show, india,thank you.
Thanks for having me.
There's human rights issues allover the world, and especially
in your home country of the USA.
So why South Africa?
Why have you based much of yourresearch there?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I first came to South Africa while I was a student
and I was interested in SouthAfrica because there was this
firm commitment to embracinghuman rights after apartheid.
The constitution is viewed asbeing very progressive.
I was a law student interestedin human rights issues and so I
became really interested inSouth Africa and doing research
(01:04):
there and I went back and so Idid research that really focused
on the policing institution andsome of the challenges of
reforming a police institutionthat was really the enforcement
arm of apartheid into aninstitution that would now exist
in this human rights framework.
That would now exist in thishuman rights framework.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
When did you know that this kind of work was your
thing, your wow, the thing thatlit you up, the cause that you
wanted to pursue?
What's the story there?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer when I was
pretty young and then, likeeveryone in my family was
disappointed.
I didn't want to be like adoctor that's kind of like what
they would push people to tryand do but I just wanted to be a
lawyer and I think maybe isjust a commitment to fairness
(01:57):
and, you know, having that, evenas a young person, kind of
thinking in that sort of way.
But it was something that youknow stayed with me.
Even in high school I did likethe mock trial team and I
interned for my city court.
I grew up in Yonkers, new York,and so I interned for the court
there and through college youknow I knew I was interested in
(02:20):
doing like civil rights type ofwork and so you know I guess
it's just something that'sstayed with me.
How I ended up doing myparticular type of work actually
is it's been, I guess, anunexpected journey in some ways,
and so you know I do research.
I've done research on thepolicing of sex workers, so it's
(02:40):
not a topic I thought I'd everdo research on.
Part of what got me interestedin policing is just seeing some
inequities in the criminalsystem and thinking about ways
to address them and how you canbring a human rights
understanding to address theseissues, police as a way of
(03:07):
looking at the criminal system.
But as I was doing my researchand I had just moved to South
Africa, I actually clerked forthe constitutional court, which
is like their Supreme Court ortheir highest court in South
Africa, and I was doing theresearch and I started to hear
these stories about, you know,sex workers who were having
these really violent encounterswith the police, and I decided
(03:27):
to investigate it a little bitfurther, and I noticed there
wasn't much research that wasfocused on policing and police
as an institution that looked atsex work or really anything
that had an impact specific tomostly women or that were that
focused on gender, and so Ithought it would be an
interesting place to look atthese different, you know, ideas
(03:49):
around.
You know what it means to be apolice officer who is, you know,
policing women who you knowmaybe don't fit into some of the
norms in dominant society.
What are some of the tensionsthere?
And then, in this country,where police have this
affirmative duty to respecteveryone's human rights and it's
in the Constitution and theConstitutional Court has, you
(04:09):
know, found that what like?
What does the policing actuallylook like?
And so it just presented allthese really interesting and
unique issues that I didn't findwas really being discussed.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Do the police love you or hate you?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
was really being discussed.
Do the police love you or hateyou?
I don't know At this point.
You know I wouldn't be shockedif you know some hated me.
But you know, as I was doing myresearch, I did have to find a
way to build relationship withpolice officers.
So the way that I did myresearch is, you know, I'm an
anthropologist, so I'm a lawyerand I'm also an anthropologist,
(04:48):
and you know, one of the mainways that anthropologists do
research is by doing fields workand engaging in what we call
participant observation, whereyou're participating in what's
happening in the scene butyou're mostly like really
observing over time what'shappening in a particular place.
And so I was working with bothpolice and sex workers over the
(05:10):
course of close to two years,observing like their
interactions, observing policeas they were going on patrols,
and so during that process I hadto develop relationships.
I had a regular police officerpartner who I became pretty
close with.
Now, how they would interpretmy findings or what their
thoughts are about it, likeafter the fact I'm not entirely
(05:33):
certain.
But you know these are justhuman beings.
You know people who recognizesome of the limitations of what
they're doing and that there'sroom for things to be really
changed.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
You wrote a book called Policing Bodies.
What was the motivation behindthat?
What drove you and what's thatpassion that's gripped you
through doing that book?
Speaker 2 (05:56):
The book is really telling the story of policing in
Johannesburg and the policingof sex work, but it has insights
that are really relevant aswe're at this moment where, in a
lot of countries and a lot ofcities and societies, people are
thinking about what is theappropriate role for police.
We know that there are theserisks of having violent
(06:17):
encounters, and so what shouldthe relationship be with police,
particularly when they'redealing with more vulnerable
communities or more marginalizedgroups?
And so you know what this bookdoes it's looking at how the
policing of sex work occurs inJohannesburg, and I was able to
get access to both the policeofficers.
So police are doing the work.
(06:37):
It took about a year just toget that research approval and,
you know, go in the patrol carwith them, sit with them as
they're in the police station,get their perspective on it, as
well as do research with sexworkers and their perspective of
the policing.
And so I did interviews, I didparticipant observation, which
meant, you know, I'd often go onthese 12 hour patrols and I
(07:00):
would see officers as they'repolicing sex work, because I
chose locations that had sexwork hotspots.
But I also saw them as theywere pulling people over.
There were high speed chases.
There were a lot of otherthings, things that were
occurring as they were justengaging in ordinary policing,
and so that ends up being, youknow, part of what I observed as
(07:21):
well.
And you know, with the sexworkers, you know I observed
them while they were working andthere were some that I, you
know, developed somerelationships with, where you
know we would go out socially,you know, and other times when
they weren't actually activelyworking, and just speak about
some of their challenges, speakabout their family backgrounds,
(07:41):
and you know what brought theminto this and what their
experiences have been.
And so you know, from doingthis, you know research.
I wrote this book that provides, you know, these different
perspectives from groups thatare often thought of as being in
opposition with each other, andyou know, in direct conflict,
and just provide this account of.
You know how the policing ofsex work occurs and what are
(08:04):
some of the insights that we cantake from it that apply broadly
as we examine the role ofpolicing.
And you know I also, you know,look at questions about.
You know feminism too, becausethere have been a lot of
feminist arguments about.
you know whether prostitutionshould be legal or not, and you
know some of this has beendescribed, as you know, some of
(08:24):
the like old sex wars thatoccurred within feminism.
And you know, what I was tryingto do here is like do some
grounded research, like reallylook at how it was occurring and
look to see what would be morebeneficial for sex workers, like
what would actually improvepeople's lives, not necessarily
to take like a political stance,because I think you know,
(08:46):
before I started really engagingin this project and writing the
book, I didn't have aparticular standpoint on it.
I was pretty agnostic about thewhole thing.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
What's been the reception of the book and who
reads it?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yeah, it's been really great, you know it's been
.
It's been interesting becauseit's been a pretty broad
audience.
So it's people who have beenfocused on like gender type of
issues, like feminists, orpeople who are like actively
engaged in that debate.
I've gotten people who are justfocused on like policing issues
, some people who are just whatI would consider consider to be
(09:22):
like activists focused on likeracial justice and scholars in
that area, and then and then,just like I've been on some you
know I was like on the gistrecently just like some other
kind of audiences that Iwouldn't necessarily expect to
have shown some interest.
So it's, it's been good.
It's been good, you know, justmeeting a lot of different
people and just, you know,hearing like why people are
(09:45):
interested, because it's beendifferent things.
Sometimes it's, you know, theyknow someone who was a sex
worker and they were justcurious to you know, hear an
account of it.
Sometimes it's just, you know,they think, you know, maybe
they're a person who's generallyconservative and they're also a
libertarian and they want tolearn.
You know, like what are some ofthe arguments against more
(10:05):
criminalization or against more,you know, government
interventions?
And then sometimes there's likesuper progressive people who
think that you know, we shouldjust support everyone and you
know, and the like, and so it'sactually been pretty diverse in
terms of the people I've beenable to speak to about the book.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
You're operating in a world that has got that sexism
and you're stepping out as aleader in this space.
How has that journey been foryou?
I mean, you've got that veryclever research hat on, almost,
so you probably see that youopen doors that others in an
activist role probably don't.
(10:46):
But what have you seen?
What any stories you can tell?
Or how do you feel when I callyou a leader in this space?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I guess I hadn't really thought of myself in that
way, but I think that it's true, it's.
You know, I tried to be reallydeliberate with the research and
have all these footnotes, butyou know, maybe some of it is
known that you know, without it,the history and as well as
contemporary things that areoccurring, as well as theory,
and so you know, just providingthat support and making sure
(11:25):
that you know I was being prettythorough and what I was doing
was really important for me andI think you know, kind of lays
the foundation for other workthat I'll be doing right and
where I might not, you know, useas many footnotes but still
have that work already out thereand you know, be able to
establish myself as an expertalready because I've written
this book.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So what's next, India ?
What's the movement you want tocreate?
What's the revolution thatyou're creating?
Come on, you can't tell me.
There's something in this, notsomething in that.
I mean, look at your hair,which we're going to talk about.
There's a rebel in you.
Tell us what movement are youcreating, what change are you
going to create in the next, say, five years?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I would want for the decriminalisation of sex work to
be taken more seriously, becomemore of a topic of discussion.
More of a topic of discussionpublic discourse is for people
to really consider the harmsthat criminalization brings to
sex workers is counterproductive.
You know, there's so muchpolice resources expended on it,
(12:27):
people end up getting arrestedand then released and arrested
and released, and this is thecase in South Africa, it's the
case in the US, it's the case inAustralia, it's the case like
pretty much you know most placeswhere you have this cycle,
where you know criminalizationof sex workers has just not been
effective.
(12:47):
It just hasn't met the goalsthat are stated.
That is intended to me and sofor me, I think that would be a
really important thing that I'dlike to see and I think it could
be done with an active movement, with organizing.
I think it could be done wherethis is taken, like seriously
and we're moving toward adecriminalization, use police,
(13:20):
like you know, what I observed,which was interesting, was that
even for innocent encountersbecause you're dealing with you
know officer who's been trainedto, you know kill, that is armed
small encounters can veryquickly escalate right, and so
you can create the situationswhere violence can occur where
you actually didn't even need anofficer to be present to begin
(13:40):
with.
So, really, just reexaminingthe ways that we use the police,
in a lot of communities in theUS, especially in South Africa,
you have it where the police endup, for example, not being
trained and being able toidentify if someone's having
like a mental health crisis orsomething, and then end up like
killing someone where maybe adifferent professional would
(14:02):
have taken a different approachright, and so really, you know,
pushing that forward in terms ofyou know how we're using police
in society is something elseyou know.
I'd also, you know, like to see.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Because in some quarters and it's it's so big,
you know, with the death ofGeorge Floyd, and you know, the
things that go on police aresometimes seen as the enemy and
to be feared, aren't they?
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, you know, I think like for some communities,
they've experienced so muchpolice violence or negative
interactions that when they seethe police, they don't see
someone who's there to bringthem safety.
They've seen someone who'sthere, might have experienced
(14:54):
similar things or arere-experiencing.
You know what they saw lastweek?
Right, we didn't have the videofor that.
Maybe the person had died, theywere just severely injured,
right.
But, like you know, when youhave that, it becomes part of
the fabric of that community,and so the way that they
experience policing is not justas a public good, it ends up
being a source of violence sothe work that you're doing is
(15:18):
phenomenal, like if it can makea change in the way society
perceives police, the way policesystems work.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
look, I just encourage you to just go for the
moon.
It's exciting what you're doingand it's fascinating,
absolutely fascinating, and, canI say, brave.
You're very brave in what youdo.
Do you feel sometimes a littlebit scared in what you do?
Have you had any experiencesthat go?
Oh my gosh, that was close yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Yeah, there have been times where it's you know,
things have felt where when I'vebeen nervous or afraid.
There's there's this one momentas I was doing my research and
I speak a bit about it in thebook.
So I was doing research withthe police and sex workers.
At this point I had alreadyformed close relationships with
sex workers and closerelationships with the police.
(16:11):
However, a different policedepartment had come into the
community, like they didn'tordinary police this area.
But it came into that area andthey had just rounded up a bunch
of people, didn't arrest them,or they said they weren't
arrested but wouldn't let themgo.
And some of the sex workerscalled me and I went there and
when I went there I asked themyou know what was going on.
(16:33):
It was pretty close to where Ilived because I lived in the
community.
And when I spoke to after Ifinished speaking to the sex
workers to see what washappening, I went to leave and
the officers wouldn't let me goand so they just kind of blocked
me in that area and I asked Iwas like am I arrested?
And they're like no, but we'llput handcuffs on you.
(16:53):
I was like, oh, my goodness, soit was.
Yeah, that was such a closecall, you know.
I ended up finding a way to kindof like sneak out.
But you know, I just knew Idefinitely did not want to be
arrested and it was definitely amoment that you know kind of
illustrated for me.
You know, there is some dangerwhen you, when you're doing this
(17:16):
research, and especially whenyou're forming really close
relationships with people andwho are, you know, participating
in your research, because youknow, the lines between me being
a researcher versus a friendstarted to blur at times.
So you know the fact thatthey're calling me it was like
two in the morning and I just,you know, kind of pop up and go
like if it were, you know, justone of my friends.
(17:37):
I'm going to like help out withsomething and you know you
created a bit of a dangeroussituation for me.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
What has been the most difficult part of writing
your book and doing the workthat you do?
What?
What's the?
What do you find hard?
Speaker 2 (17:49):
The interesting thing for me.
But what I find difficult ismaking sure like staying
motivated to really like sharethe research and, you know, go
out there and like work towardthat world I want to work toward
in a concrete way, because forme it's easy for me to kind of
(18:11):
like go into the books, into theresearch or even into the field
and just think about my nextproject and jump to the next
thing and jump to the next thing.
And for me it's really alsothinking about, like you know,
the, the, the market, marketingstrategy and like really making
sure that I'm prioritizing thatjust as much as I'm prioritizing
like the substance, because itcan be easy, especially for
(18:33):
professors, um, to just thinkabout like the research part and
then like just, you know, leavethe book in the shelf somewhere
, and I'm really trying not todo that what's your next book
going to be about?
I think my next book actuallymight be a memoir about growing
up in Yonkers, new York, andreally just focus on, like, my
high school years.
(18:53):
And you know, yonkers is prettyinteresting because I didn't
know at the time but the schoolthat I school district I went to
actually what has wascategorized as being racially
segregated and they had thisdesegregation order that was
being monitored during that time, and so you know, there I
(19:14):
experienced a lot of the effectsof that without realizing it
while I was at school and sojust kind of re-examining and
also tracking like what washappening with that case at the
same time I think would be likea fun project for me to do.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
How did you escape that?
As sane as?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
How did you escape that?
As sane and as together as youare, or hasn?
In some ways, I feel like it'smade me just kind of appreciate
certain things better and justhave to be competent in ways
that maybe other just doingwhatever needs to be done to get
to where I need to get to atevery step and just trying to
like exude, you know, confidenceand competence which is, you
know, been important and in someways, you know, those
(20:19):
experiences have actually beenbeneficial to me, because I know
, you know, I think sometimespeople walk away from certain
challenges or, you know, aren'twilling to take certain risks,
challenges, or, you know, aren'twilling to, you know, take
certain risks and for me I am,I'm not afraid of them because I
feel like I've seen worse orI've been through worse.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Who has influenced you to be who you are, dead or
alive?
Who or who do you admire?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
You know I don't often say this, but I think you
know my mom has actually beenquite an inspiration for me just
in terms of always beingconfident and you know, going
through all my different crazyphases and being supportive
despite them and other people Iadmire I think you know
Catherine Dunham is this wasthis anthropologist and dancer
and I guess I just reallyadmired her ability to like
(21:07):
bring both of her interests intothe research and work that she
was doing.
And you know she developed this.
You know dance style, the denimtechnique, and you know I've
always been interested in danceas well, and so she was someone
who really inspired me.
Like you don't have to just fitinto one box, you can be
(21:28):
different things and their waysto kind of merge your different
interests, and so she's been aninspiration for me as well.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
India.
It's been so good chatting withyou and getting to know you.
I find your work fascinatingand, as I said before, I think
you're very brave and I think Itruly hope the best for you that
you really break down walls andsmash through more ceilings, so
yay.
But I want you to projectyourself into the future now,
(21:54):
and I've been asking thisquestion at the end of my recent
series and I want to ask it ofyou at the end of your life,
what could I show off about you?
What would be the greatesthonor?
What?
What would you love your lifeto have ever achieved?
What would make you smile?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
I guess I like to think that I help form different
communities of people who areinterested in making this world
better.
Um, you know, whether it'sthrough different workshops,
conferences, just bringingpeople together, my friends and
you know just being having agood, fantastic life and just
(22:33):
working together to try to makethis world a little bit better,
that's, that's, I think, whatI'd like.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
It's brilliant, and if there's one thing that you
could change about the world inyour lifetime, what would it be?
Speaker 2 (22:43):
There would be no racial injustice.
Wouldn't that be great?
That would be even more societylet's hope we see it in our
lifetime.
And no sexism too.
Oh, wouldn't that be no sexism.
Thank you, I've really beenenjoying the conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Thank you so have I and thank you for your time.
All the best in johannesburgand I can't wait you should be.
I can't wait to look out andsee you in the news someday.
A lot more, I really do believe.
A bigger platform for you andall the best.
I admire you and I honour youfor the work you're doing in the
world.
Thank you, thank you so muchThank you.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.