March 11, 2025 • 28 mins
We're getting deep into the weeds with this discussion on control state issues. Brigid McCabe and Cassidy Poe join host Jimmy Moreland for a chat with MHW's Control State Team Manager Kristen Cafferata and Director of Product Compliance Maridel Altmann. We dig deep and get specific on this one - if you want some extra reading material on the subject, see MHW's excellent writeup on control states vs. open states.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the MHW Mark podcast, where we take deep
dives into various aspects ofthe alcohol industry.
My name is Jimmy Moreland.
Mhw is a US and EU beveragealcohol importer, distributor
and service provider Co-hostingwith me today I'm pleased to
welcome back MHW's BridgetMcCabe and Cassidy Poe.
Welcome back, y'all.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thanks, jimmy Hi Cassidy.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Hey, Jimmy and Bridget Always happy to be back.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Good to have y'all back Now.
I understand this has been, tosay the least, a bit of a busy
time for MHW.
I know that the events calendaris kicking up.
What have we had going on?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We have the Discus Conference, which is coming up
at the end of this month.
We have the Discus Conference,which is coming up at the end of
this month, quickly approaching, and we're really excited
because we imported the ScottishAssociation brands that will be
popping up at Discus forexhibitors, so very excited to
see a lot of those brands comingover from the UK.
As well as our involvement inthe board, we have our CEO and
(01:07):
Executive Vice President whowill be present at those board
meetings.
We have the public affairscommittee that we're involved in
.
So a lot of exciting things tocome at the end of this month.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Looking away from the calendar and looking at today's
conversation, today we've got agood one.
It's probably as deep into theweeds we like to pride ourselves
on this podcast that we getinto the weeds.
We're not shy about gettinginto nitty gritty details and
talking brass tacks when itcomes to finance, marketing,
compliance, all of that kind ofstuff.
(01:36):
Today we really really get intoit.
It is crunchy, crunchy, crunchystuff on today's episode, fear
not, we've got some links in theshow notes that people can
check out, maybe refer to,follow along if you will, and
we've got a couple of guests whoare going to be our Sherpas,
our guides, through the valleyof the shadow of death.
(01:56):
That is the control statediscussion.
Bridget and Cassidy, I'm thelayperson.
I don't have the industryexperience like y'all do, but
for y'all who have been in theindustry, what is it like
tackling some of the issuessurrounding questions that
clients may have about controlstates versus open states,
versus yada, yada?
Speaker 2 (02:25):
ease the transition when a brand wants to enter into
the US market or expand, andreally make sure that the brands
are well prepared beforefinalizing their plan of entry.
So understanding the truedifferences between control
states and open states is anearly and essential part of this
process.
You know, we have quite aunique three-tier system
developed from prohibition, andso each state in the US has
their own laws controlling howbrands can sell their alcohol.
(02:46):
The states that are controlledby the government are control
states, and so Meridel andKristen are going to really get
into what exactly that means interms of overseeing the
wholesaling or the retailing ofalcohol products, and what
exactly brands need to do to getregistered in these states.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
I would say the great thing about this episode as
well is that it's such a greatexample of the wealth of
knowledge that we have here atMHW.
Kristen and Miranel basicallyknow everything you need to know
about control states andpersonally, I think for Bridget
as well, it's been veryinteresting to learn from them
and our whole compliance teamabout these things, and all of
(03:26):
us are still kind of learningevery day, as they're very
complicated.
So I think it'll be a greatepisode for everyone to kind of
get a taste of that.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Well, I definitely learned a lot in this discussion
, so I invite listeners to learnalong with me.
So let's jump into thediscussion.
Our guests today.
First we have MHW Control StateTeam Manager, Kristen Cafarata.
Welcome, Kristen.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
Happy, happy.
Hello, how are you guys?
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Very good.
It's great to have you on here.
We also have the Director ofProduct Compliance for MHW,
Maridel Altman.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Hi Jimmy, hi everybody.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Great to have you on the podcast.
We appreciate y'all making thetime.
Now.
Before we jump into the meat ofour conversation, I'd like for
our listeners to know a littlebit more about each of you.
So, kristen, can you start bytelling us just a little bit
about yourself, how you came tobe at MHW and on this podcast?
Speaker 5 (04:22):
Magic.
I got here by magic, no.
So I've been with MHW for alittle over 10 years now.
I started back in 2014,.
Can't do math, and I kind ofjust continue to grow.
I love it.
I love what I do.
I recently transitioned fromwhat I originally got hired for,
which was price posting, to nowthe control state management
(04:43):
team, and it's a lot of fun.
It's always something new,something just about me.
I am magical, apparently.
I've been eating my luckycharms.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
And Maridel, how about you?
Speaker 4 (04:54):
So I've been with MHW for about 13 years.
I started in operations.
I started as a specialist,entering orders and such, and
worked my way up to leading ateam and then at some point
established our training teamfor new hires.
And then a few years ago, Ishifted my focus on
(05:15):
restructuring our control stateteam, which is now being led by
our fabulous Chris Scafrada.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Very good.
Now we keep hearing this termcontrol state.
Can you tell us what controlstate means in the context of
BevAlc?
Speaker 5 (05:29):
So control states literally just mean that these
states maintain control of thebeverage alcohol.
So each state has a differentset of regulations.
There are open states, thereare price posting states and
there are control states.
Regulations there are openstates, there are price posting
states and there are controlstates.
So an open state is very simplyan open state.
(05:52):
The state allows you to sellalcohol with very limited
oversight and regulation.
A price posting state issimilar in that you are able to
sell at your discretion butrequires some T's to be crossed
and I's to be dotted withregistration and specifically
posting a price that you plan tosell for, the intention being
to maintain an equal playingfield.
To say, if I'm selling toretailer A at $100, I'm selling
(06:15):
to retailer B at 100, andthere's no discriminatory
practices.
A control state means that thestate is dictating the sale of
the beverage alcohol by beingthe in-state customer that is
purchasing and selling theproduct.
So they literally take it, theymaintain who gets it at what
price and then they give it outto consumers.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
What does that mean for, I guess, the layperson,
consumer?
Does it impact me in any realway that I can feel if I live in
Texas and then I move to Maine?
I know that they are different.
I'm not sure which one they areMaybe off the top of your head
you know but is there somethingthat I can feel as a real
difference when I cross stateborders from one to another?
Speaker 5 (06:57):
Yes, I know In that in Texas, which would be an open
state with a registration, likea brand label registration
requirement, you as the consumerwouldn't necessarily feel that
because the product would beavailable to you In a control
state, because the customerthat's purchasing from the
supplier is the state.
There's no guarantee thatthey're willing to take on the
(07:19):
product or facilitate sales.
So it's very possible that youmight want a particular brand
that's not currently in Mainethat you can then petition to a
local retailer who can thenpetition to the state and then
they can see if they can get theproduct.
But there's no guarantee you'llactually get it.
So the options are likely morelimited not guaranteed, but
(07:41):
likely more limited just becausethe state only wants what they
want to sell.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Is there additional stipulations from some states?
For example, I grew up inPennsylvania, so, as I
understand and this could havechanged because it's been many
years since I've been there butwe couldn't purchase even wine
or spirits in our local grocerystores.
We had to go to our statedistributors for that.
So is that something thatreally differs state to state,
(08:07):
or is that all control states?
Speaker 5 (08:10):
It does vary.
So there are certain stateswhere the state is the
wholesaler, purchasing from thesupplier, and also the in-state
retailer, like Pennsylvania,where you have to go into a
Pennsylvania store to purchasethe product versus.
There might be other statesthat the state purchases the
product from the supplier andthen the retailers are all
(08:30):
privately owned, so you couldfind it on the shelf easily as
opposed to having to go to astate entity to purchase it.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
And this may be an obvious question, maybe a little
bit of a history lesson for ourlisteners who don't already
know but why is it like this?
Why do we have 50 differentsystems in 50 different states?
Speaker 5 (08:48):
Prohibition.
Most of this started withprohibition.
You know, the government wantedto regulate everything.
They wanted complete visibilityof what was going out, and then
each state kind of got theirown rights to do what they
wanted to, and the controlstates adhered more to the
prohibition days, price Postingdecided.
(09:09):
You know, they wanted to kindof be somewhere in the middle
and Open States just said, eh,it's a free-for-all, do what you
need to do, we want you to sell.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
It did originate from prohibition, like Kristen said.
After prohibition, the 17control states and the one
county in Montgomery Countydecided that they were going to
remain in control of thedistribution of product within
their state.
And so, and then you know thereare somewhat standards across
(09:39):
control.
States, meaning they allrequire you know a state code.
States, meaning they allrequire you know a state code,
they all require for us toprovide UPC codes, scc codes,
you know, as part of submissions.
And so those are the thingsthat we ask for as part of our
service and, yeah, we guideclients through that and those
are just the fun things that wetalk to clients about on a daily
(10:01):
basis.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
That gets to.
What I wanted to ask is whatdoes the day-to-day work of what
your team does?
What does that look like?
Are you just answeringquestions for clients, or what's
the scope of work look like?
Speaker 5 (10:13):
It really varies by client, supplier, need day.
For the most part, everythingsort of starts in the same place
.
It starts with the question ofI want to go into X state.
We then go over the specificrequirements based on the
beverage type, since controlstates only require, depending
on the state, for either wineand beer and spirits or, most
(10:35):
predominantly, just spirits.
It's less common that beer andwine are controlled.
So we go over you know, yourbeverage type, which state you
want to go into, what thatspecific state requires, and
then, once we get sort of allthose T's crossed and we're
ready to kind of move forward,we get the required information,
like Merida was saying the UPC,which is the barcode on the
(10:56):
physical product.
The SCC, which is the barcodeon the physical product.
The SCC, which is the barcodeon the outer shipping case,
literally a shipping containercode.
It's like a barcode on theouter case that the state
requires to literally scan totheir warehouse pallet
dimensions, pricing, which isobvious, if they're planning on
using a broker, if they'replanning on offering any
(11:17):
discounts, sort of like a lot ofnuanced, state-specific details
that come up based on anindividual conversation with
what a brand is looking toachieve.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Do you recommend a broker for most brands that are
seeking to get into controlstates?
Speaker 5 (11:33):
It's always recommended, simply because a
broker will operate on thesupplier's sort of behest at
their best interest.
They can offer a lot ofin-state direction that MHW
doesn't necessarily have, sincewe're not in the state
conducting the sales and thetastings and seeing market
trends.
There are a lot of things thatwe just don't have visibility to
being the sort of out-of-stateshipper.
(11:54):
So having a broker is alwaysideal if possible.
Some states require it,depending on their listing type,
but for the most part it's notrequired.
It's just ideal to kind of helpmove the brand along in a state
, because if you don't have thatin-state representation there's
likely not as much demand.
(12:15):
So it kind of plays into howsuccessful the brand is in a
particular state.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
So I want to get into some of these specifics about
control states here, and there'sa few couple key terms that I
don't think the average personwould know what they are and how
they come into play.
So do you want to talk aboutspecial promotional allowances
and depletion allowances?
Speaker 5 (12:39):
Sure, just to take a step back, just sort of, because
I think I mentioned, you know,listed special order.
There are a lot of terms thatif you're not in these states
could sound a little bit like aforeign language.
So a special order is a statepurchasing product based on
(13:02):
in-state demand.
Meaning I walk into a store inMaine I say I want Kristen's
vodka.
They reach out to the supplierand for a special order for a
specific retail interest.
They purchase product tofacilitate a consumer request.
A listed item is slightlydifferent and usually a longer
process.
The states typically requirethe item starts as a special
order to indicate how muchvolume the state can actually
(13:23):
anticipate and if it's worththeir time, because a listed
item typically appears in like astate issued sort of like
ordering guide as a SKU thatthey suggest purchasing.
I was almost like literallyorder one of these 10 items,
which is always great for abrand if they can get listed
because it's on like an orderingsheet for people to know it
exists.
So special order is a lot morecommon for newer brands.
(13:46):
So they get in, they get someretail interest and then, once
there's enough interest built up, they can then petition to be
listed and the state will thensay, yeah, you've been doing
great, we're happy to take yourbrand on.
They can then sell in highervolumes, which is obviously
always the ideal to make moremoney.
And all that ties into how youwork with your broker, if
possible to help dictatein-state market trends to see if
(14:09):
you want to do a SPA specialpromotional allowance or a DA
depletion allowance.
Both are more or lessinterchangeable.
Ultimately what they are is,depending on the state they have
a different term.
But ultimately what they do isthey offer a temporary price
change to offer an incentive forthe state or consumers to want
to purchase the product on apromotional basis.
(14:32):
So, depending on the state,it'll either be a discount off
of what the wholesaler, thestate is paying, or it could be
a discount off of what thewholesaler, the state is paying,
or it could be a discount offof what the retailer is paying
to incentivize retailers to buyor hire volume to again move
more product.
So it's a marketing tool to tryto help push more volume, make
the brand look more enticing,more competitive in the market,
(14:53):
which is where that broker comesreally into play to say, hey,
your brand could do really wellif you lower the price.
Let's see what happens if youlower it by a dollar a bottle
and kind of use that to see likehow you're faring in the market
compared to other similarbrands.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
It sounds like a lot of negotiation, a lot of
probably very relationship heavyinteractions going on.
Speaker 5 (15:13):
Absolutely so.
We, mhw is the vendor or, likethe outof-state shipper, works
closely with the brokers whooperate on behalf of the
supplier in the state and insome states it's the only point
of contact the state has.
Like in New Hampshire, whereMHW is the vendor, the state
doesn't care who we are, theyonly care about the in-state
broker that is going to solicitthat brand and make that brand
(15:35):
move.
So they don't care who we are,they care that we work with the
broker they know and the brokerthat they trust.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
That's a great explanation, and I guess one of
the things for our listenersthat would be really helpful is
how can a brand best prepare fortheir control state listing?
What is like the dream scenariowhen a client comes to you and
they're ready to open up acontrol state.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Oh my goodness.
So we always say preparation iskey because a lot of what we
require and what states needultimately are things that the
client skews or the brand skewdetails need.
So you know being able toidentify or have readily
available the UPC codes and theCC codes.
You know being able to identifyor have readily available the
(16:19):
UPC codes and SCC codes.
You know the spec sheet.
Basically, as Kristen indicatedearlier, are one of the key
components of being ready toenter the control state markets,
and so you know what we tellclients normally is you know if
you're planning to get into acontrol state, get in touch with
us one to two months prior towhen you want to be in the
(16:41):
market and at the very least, wecan start talking to you about.
You know how your pricingshould look like, or you know
what the NABCA codes, or youknow submitting a NABCA codes on
your behalf could be one ofthose prep items that we could
help you know, guide you through.
So preparation is always best,is always great, and we really
push our clients to give usinformation and just be prepared
(17:04):
when they want to be in controlstates.
Does it matter?
Speaker 1 (17:08):
where you're coming from, or is it only like where
the alcohol is going to?
So if I'm based in Illinoisversus Texas or Florida or
somewhere, does that matter asmuch as I'm wanting to go into
New York?
Speaker 5 (17:23):
It's more important where you're planning to sell to
, depending on the state.
If you are domestic, it mightchange how we need to submit the
product.
Ie, pennsylvania has a specificaccommodation for Pennsylvania
produced goods going intoPennsylvania, so they offer a
lot more guidance, a lot moreleniency, a lot more options
(17:43):
because it's within the samestate.
If it's domestically producedand you're still going through
someone like an MHW as yourservice provider, we're still
acting as like an out-of-stateshipper.
So it's almost irrelevant whatstate it's coming from versus
being an international product.
It might just change how youprice the product if it's
domestic, just because yourfreight, your taxes, all that
stuff is going to play into whatyour base FOB or base price is
(18:07):
going to look like.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Merida, you brought up NABCA briefly there, so I
wasn't sure if you wanted toexplain what NABCA is and how
they come into play in all ofthis.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Good question, cassidy.
Nabca is the National AlcoholBeverage Control Association.
Basically, they are the entitythat represents the alcohol
beverage industry and theystrive, I will say, to
standardize requirements withinthe control states.
(18:37):
So all 17 control states areregistered within the NABCA
agency.
However, not all states, notall control states, I should say
, require for brands to haveNABCA codes, and so there are
states where the NABCA codeswill be the standard state code
(19:00):
and there are other states wherethey dictate their own state
code.
So we like to always ensurethat clients have the NABCA
codes when they want to go intoa control state, only because
once they have that about 50% ofthe control states, they'd
already have a state codeconnected to that.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
SKU.
And then from a tradeparticipation perspective,
Cassidy, I'm actually going totap you to chat about what we do
with the NABCA conference andhow our clients can get involved
.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
So this year it is in May.
Nabca has an annual conferenceevery year that NABCA members
are invited to attend andbasically, through MHW's
relationship with NAVCA, any ofMHW's clients can exhibit within
our booth at the trade showportion of the conference.
(20:00):
So basically, mhw has a barevery year within their booth
and a couple of our clients willjoin us and we have a bartender
that will serve cocktails witheach of the client products in
it.
We have a bartender that willserve cocktails with each of the
client products in it and alsoa representative from each of
the brands can pour samples inthe booth as well.
So it's been a really greatopportunity for our clients to
kind of get their products infront of some of the control
state important decision makers.
(20:21):
We've gotten some greatfeedback from clients in the
past, and I mean from an MHWstandpoint.
It's always great to go to theconference and meet a ton of
people who are verywell-educated and involved in
the control state fields,including Kristen, who will be
joining me at the conferencethis year.
So we're very excited.
(20:42):
If any MHW clients areinterested in participating, you
can reach out to us about thatas well.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
And that conference again is May 19th through 22nd
and it's in Kissimmee Florida.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
And your Disney trip.
Yes, Do all of the controlstates pick up from?
I imagine they're accustomed topicking up from Western and our
other warehouses, or are thereany where we have to facilitate
the logistics?
Speaker 5 (21:07):
It's actually a good question.
It actually comes up prettyfrequently.
So most of the states areprepaid, meaning that the
supplier is responsible forshipping the product at their
cost to the state.
There are a number of statesthat, depending on, obviously,
the state, they build thefreight into their cost because
they intend to consolidate theshipments with other suppliers
(21:30):
for sort of their speed and costeffectiveness.
But for the most part,especially since most of the
products start a special order,they tend to start as smaller
orders that are either FedEx,ups or ship like, on just a
smaller scale, that the clientpays directly to ship to the
state to again build up thatvolume so that they can then
(21:50):
start to ship in largerquantities and get the volume
that the state could thenpotentially consolidate and, you
know, be cheaper in the longrun.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Is there any special consideration for DTC
applications, applications?
You know, once I've got mywebsite and all my drop shipping
or whatever it is, once I'vegot that set up, is it different
if someone is trying to order aproduct to their door, whether
they're in Maine or Texas?
How much of a difficulty isthat?
Or do you need to have like a50-state strategy if you're
(22:18):
trying to do DTC correctly?
Speaker 5 (22:21):
It really is going to depend on the state.
We don't cover too too much onDTC.
The couple of times that it hascome up it typically is sort of
MHW selling to another quoteunquote in-state wholesaler as
opposed to the state board, andit kind of goes around the
control state system because theentity that's doing the DTC
(22:43):
tends to have a specific type oflicense and permit to allow
them to do so.
So it doesn't typicallyfacilitate the same way a
control state sale would.
If they could find a DTC entitythat's able to and licensed to
do it, that's great.
But it's not always the mostcost effective way to do sales
because the DTC entity might endup having a much higher margin
(23:04):
for how they mark up the priceor the profit they take before
they actually sell to consumers.
So it's definitely a numbersgame if it even makes sense for
a particular supplier.
But in theory, yes, DTC is anoption if you find the right
entity to do it.
Mhw could not be a DTC entityfor a supplier, though we're not
licensed to do so.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
So to kind of piggyback from an e-commerce
perspective, which is slightlydifferent than DTC.
There are states that have likeintra-commerce agreements with
other states and it really youkind of have to research each
individual state in terms ofwhat retailers can sell to
consumers and ship across lines.
But there are e-commercenetworks where, say, if a brand
is, you know, selling in NewYork or Florida, for example,
(23:46):
there's agreements with certainstates to be able those
consumers to be able to receiveI believe it's 38 different
states that can receiveshipments from retailers inside
of those states, for example.
So there could be, if you signup for, say, like a BevStack and
that's, you know, integratedinto the brand's website.
(24:07):
They're sort of the back officethat goes through a retailer
network that can thencompliantly ship to consumers
ordering from a retailer in adifferent state.
But it really, you know itvaries from state to state what
these agreements are and youknow what can ship and even
things down to like the type andthe category of the beverage.
(24:27):
Alcohol matters, because wineshave a little bit more
flexibility, for example, thanspirits.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
If I'm a brand and I'm just spinning up getting
things going, what's the firststeps?
To make sure that all of my T'sare crossed and I's dotted Is
the easiest thing just togenerally enter the MHW
ecosystem and from there I getreferred to the people I need to
get referred to in order tolegally enter the markets I want
to enter, or what does thatstep look like?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
So I think that each strategy for every brand is
going to be slightly differentin terms of market entry points,
expansion points that arealready in the US, and so the
best way to kind of go aboutthis is to work with the MHW
business development team tohave custom brand economics, to
talk about target demographicsand markets.
(25:16):
Ultimately, mhw is really aboutallowing the brand to control
their marketing message andreally operationalize their
sales destiny.
So that's something that ourclients really enjoy is that,
you know, we don't kind of taketheir brand and that's the last
they see of it and they hopethat it sells in the market.
They really are the drivingforce behind it.
(25:37):
So our business developmentteam will really help in that
process to understand likemargins and to customize a
proposal.
But it's really up to the brandin terms of what markets they
want to be in and from there wewould just go through the
onboarding process.
Again, they might need a brokerto solicit that interest from
the control states if they'reinterested in being purchased
(26:00):
there.
So that is something that ourteam can help advise on.
But ultimately, you know, weleave a lot of that up to the
client to determine what marketsare best for them.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
On to our final question, our fun question that
we always like to ask our guestswhat is your favorite?
We'll say adult beverage andMaridel, if you want to go first
.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
These days I've really enjoyed ranch water.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Is there a particular flavor, a particular?
Speaker 4 (26:30):
No, it could be.
It's a cocktail that could bemade with I think it's Topo
Chico and tequila, and it's justreally refreshing.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
A ranch water, straightforward and you can get
it just about everywhere.
Very popular in Houston.
Up here in Maine not so much.
Kristen, how about you?
Speaker 5 (26:48):
I would have to say I'm a big fan of a good Moscow
Mule.
The ginger beer does sometimes,you know, give me a little
heartburn, but I'm a big fan ofjust sort of how crisp and kind
of refreshing it ends up being.
It always seems to be prettylight, so I would say that
that's a fan favorite right now.
It used to be vanilla vodka andSprite.
That's my usual wedding drink,because then if I spill it on
(27:11):
myself.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
I'm good A Moscow mule and it's always good to
have an excuse to use thosecopper cups that you got in your
cupboard.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
Always Keep it nice and cold.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I want to say a huge thanks to our guests today,
kristen Cafferata and MaridelAltman, for joining us.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
Thank you everybody, thank you, thank you.
It's been a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Now, we covered a lot of information in this episode
and if there were some terms ortopics that our listeners would
like to better understand, we'llhave links in the show notes
with more resources if folkshave questions or want to follow
up.
So thank you, listeners, forjoining us on the MHW Mark
podcast, and thanks again toBridget McCabe and Cassidy Poe
for joining me in hosting.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Thank you, Jimmy, Thanks Jimmy.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
This podcast is produced by me, jimmy Moreland,
with booking and planningsupport by Cassidy Poe and
Bridget McCabe.
It's presented by MHW.
Find out more at mhwltdcom orconnect with MHW on LinkedIn.
Lend us a hand by subscribing,rating and reviewing this
podcast wherever you listen.
We'll be back in your feed intwo weeks.
We'll see you then, cheers.
Welcome to the MHW Mark podcast, where we take deep
dives into various aspects ofthe alcohol industry.
My name is Jimmy Moreland.
Mhw is a US and EU beveragealcohol importer, distributor
and service provider Co-hostingwith me today I'm pleased to
welcome back MHW's BridgetMcCabe and Cassidy Poe.
Welcome back, y'all.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thanks, jimmy Hi Cassidy.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Hey, Jimmy and Bridget Always happy to be back.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Good to have y'all back Now.
I understand this has been, tosay the least, a bit of a busy
time for MHW.
I know that the events calendaris kicking up.
What have we had going on?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
We have the Discus Conference, which is coming up
at the end of this month.
We have the Discus Conference,which is coming up at the end of
this month, quickly approaching, and we're really excited
because we imported the ScottishAssociation brands that will be
popping up at Discus forexhibitors, so very excited to
see a lot of those brands comingover from the UK.
As well as our involvement inthe board, we have our CEO and
(01:07):
Executive Vice President whowill be present at those board
meetings.
We have the public affairscommittee that we're involved in
.
So a lot of exciting things tocome at the end of this month.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Looking away from the calendar and looking at today's
conversation, today we've got agood one.
It's probably as deep into theweeds we like to pride ourselves
on this podcast that we getinto the weeds.
We're not shy about gettinginto nitty gritty details and
talking brass tacks when itcomes to finance, marketing,
compliance, all of that kind ofstuff.
(01:36):
Today we really really get intoit.
It is crunchy, crunchy, crunchystuff on today's episode, fear
not, we've got some links in theshow notes that people can
check out, maybe refer to,follow along if you will, and
we've got a couple of guests whoare going to be our Sherpas,
our guides, through the valleyof the shadow of death.
(01:56):
That is the control statediscussion.
Bridget and Cassidy, I'm thelayperson.
I don't have the industryexperience like y'all do, but
for y'all who have been in theindustry, what is it like
tackling some of the issuessurrounding questions that
clients may have about controlstates versus open states,
versus yada, yada?
Speaker 2 (02:25):
ease the transition when a brand wants to enter into
the US market or expand, andreally make sure that the brands
are well prepared beforefinalizing their plan of entry.
So understanding the truedifferences between control
states and open states is anearly and essential part of this
process.
You know, we have quite aunique three-tier system
developed from prohibition, andso each state in the US has
their own laws controlling howbrands can sell their alcohol.
(02:46):
The states that are controlledby the government are control
states, and so Meridel andKristen are going to really get
into what exactly that means interms of overseeing the
wholesaling or the retailing ofalcohol products, and what
exactly brands need to do to getregistered in these states.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
I would say the great thing about this episode as
well is that it's such a greatexample of the wealth of
knowledge that we have here atMHW.
Kristen and Miranel basicallyknow everything you need to know
about control states andpersonally, I think for Bridget
as well, it's been veryinteresting to learn from them
and our whole compliance teamabout these things, and all of
(03:26):
us are still kind of learningevery day, as they're very
complicated.
So I think it'll be a greatepisode for everyone to kind of
get a taste of that.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Well, I definitely learned a lot in this discussion
, so I invite listeners to learnalong with me.
So let's jump into thediscussion.
Our guests today.
First we have MHW Control StateTeam Manager, Kristen Cafarata.
Welcome, Kristen.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
Happy, happy.
Hello, how are you guys?
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Very good.
It's great to have you on here.
We also have the Director ofProduct Compliance for MHW,
Maridel Altman.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Hi Jimmy, hi everybody.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Great to have you on the podcast.
We appreciate y'all making thetime.
Now.
Before we jump into the meat ofour conversation, I'd like for
our listeners to know a littlebit more about each of you.
So, kristen, can you start bytelling us just a little bit
about yourself, how you came tobe at MHW and on this podcast?
Speaker 5 (04:22):
Magic.
I got here by magic, no.
So I've been with MHW for alittle over 10 years now.
I started back in 2014,.
Can't do math, and I kind ofjust continue to grow.
I love it.
I love what I do.
I recently transitioned fromwhat I originally got hired for,
which was price posting, to nowthe control state management
(04:43):
team, and it's a lot of fun.
It's always something new,something just about me.
I am magical, apparently.
I've been eating my luckycharms.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
And Maridel, how about you?
Speaker 4 (04:54):
So I've been with MHW for about 13 years.
I started in operations.
I started as a specialist,entering orders and such, and
worked my way up to leading ateam and then at some point
established our training teamfor new hires.
And then a few years ago, Ishifted my focus on
(05:15):
restructuring our control stateteam, which is now being led by
our fabulous Chris Scafrada.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Very good.
Now we keep hearing this termcontrol state.
Can you tell us what controlstate means in the context of
BevAlc?
Speaker 5 (05:29):
So control states literally just mean that these
states maintain control of thebeverage alcohol.
So each state has a differentset of regulations.
There are open states, thereare price posting states and
there are control states.
Regulations there are openstates, there are price posting
states and there are controlstates.
So an open state is very simplyan open state.
(05:52):
The state allows you to sellalcohol with very limited
oversight and regulation.
A price posting state issimilar in that you are able to
sell at your discretion butrequires some T's to be crossed
and I's to be dotted withregistration and specifically
posting a price that you plan tosell for, the intention being
to maintain an equal playingfield.
To say, if I'm selling toretailer A at $100, I'm selling
(06:15):
to retailer B at 100, andthere's no discriminatory
practices.
A control state means that thestate is dictating the sale of
the beverage alcohol by beingthe in-state customer that is
purchasing and selling theproduct.
So they literally take it, theymaintain who gets it at what
price and then they give it outto consumers.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
What does that mean for, I guess, the layperson,
consumer?
Does it impact me in any realway that I can feel if I live in
Texas and then I move to Maine?
I know that they are different.
I'm not sure which one they areMaybe off the top of your head
you know but is there somethingthat I can feel as a real
difference when I cross stateborders from one to another?
Speaker 5 (06:57):
Yes, I know In that in Texas, which would be an open
state with a registration, likea brand label registration
requirement, you as the consumerwouldn't necessarily feel that
because the product would beavailable to you In a control
state, because the customerthat's purchasing from the
supplier is the state.
There's no guarantee thatthey're willing to take on the
(07:19):
product or facilitate sales.
So it's very possible that youmight want a particular brand
that's not currently in Mainethat you can then petition to a
local retailer who can thenpetition to the state and then
they can see if they can get theproduct.
But there's no guarantee you'llactually get it.
So the options are likely morelimited not guaranteed, but
(07:41):
likely more limited just becausethe state only wants what they
want to sell.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Is there additional stipulations from some states?
For example, I grew up inPennsylvania, so, as I
understand and this could havechanged because it's been many
years since I've been there butwe couldn't purchase even wine
or spirits in our local grocerystores.
We had to go to our statedistributors for that.
So is that something thatreally differs state to state,
(08:07):
or is that all control states?
Speaker 5 (08:10):
It does vary.
So there are certain stateswhere the state is the
wholesaler, purchasing from thesupplier, and also the in-state
retailer, like Pennsylvania,where you have to go into a
Pennsylvania store to purchasethe product versus.
There might be other statesthat the state purchases the
product from the supplier andthen the retailers are all
(08:30):
privately owned, so you couldfind it on the shelf easily as
opposed to having to go to astate entity to purchase it.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
And this may be an obvious question, maybe a little
bit of a history lesson for ourlisteners who don't already
know but why is it like this?
Why do we have 50 differentsystems in 50 different states?
Speaker 5 (08:48):
Prohibition.
Most of this started withprohibition.
You know, the government wantedto regulate everything.
They wanted complete visibilityof what was going out, and then
each state kind of got theirown rights to do what they
wanted to, and the controlstates adhered more to the
prohibition days, price Postingdecided.
(09:09):
You know, they wanted to kindof be somewhere in the middle
and Open States just said, eh,it's a free-for-all, do what you
need to do, we want you to sell.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
It did originate from prohibition, like Kristen said.
After prohibition, the 17control states and the one
county in Montgomery Countydecided that they were going to
remain in control of thedistribution of product within
their state.
And so, and then you know thereare somewhat standards across
(09:39):
control.
States, meaning they allrequire you know a state code.
States, meaning they allrequire you know a state code,
they all require for us toprovide UPC codes, scc codes,
you know, as part of submissions.
And so those are the thingsthat we ask for as part of our
service and, yeah, we guideclients through that and those
are just the fun things that wetalk to clients about on a daily
(10:01):
basis.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
That gets to.
What I wanted to ask is whatdoes the day-to-day work of what
your team does?
What does that look like?
Are you just answeringquestions for clients, or what's
the scope of work look like?
Speaker 5 (10:13):
It really varies by client, supplier, need day.
For the most part, everythingsort of starts in the same place
.
It starts with the question ofI want to go into X state.
We then go over the specificrequirements based on the
beverage type, since controlstates only require, depending
on the state, for either wineand beer and spirits or, most
(10:35):
predominantly, just spirits.
It's less common that beer andwine are controlled.
So we go over you know, yourbeverage type, which state you
want to go into, what thatspecific state requires, and
then, once we get sort of allthose T's crossed and we're
ready to kind of move forward,we get the required information,
like Merida was saying the UPC,which is the barcode on the
(10:56):
physical product.
The SCC, which is the barcodeon the physical product.
The SCC, which is the barcodeon the outer shipping case,
literally a shipping containercode.
It's like a barcode on theouter case that the state
requires to literally scan totheir warehouse pallet
dimensions, pricing, which isobvious, if they're planning on
using a broker, if they'replanning on offering any
(11:17):
discounts, sort of like a lot ofnuanced, state-specific details
that come up based on anindividual conversation with
what a brand is looking toachieve.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Do you recommend a broker for most brands that are
seeking to get into controlstates?
Speaker 5 (11:33):
It's always recommended, simply because a
broker will operate on thesupplier's sort of behest at
their best interest.
They can offer a lot ofin-state direction that MHW
doesn't necessarily have, sincewe're not in the state
conducting the sales and thetastings and seeing market
trends.
There are a lot of things thatwe just don't have visibility to
being the sort of out-of-stateshipper.
(11:54):
So having a broker is alwaysideal if possible.
Some states require it,depending on their listing type,
but for the most part it's notrequired.
It's just ideal to kind of helpmove the brand along in a state
, because if you don't have thatin-state representation there's
likely not as much demand.
(12:15):
So it kind of plays into howsuccessful the brand is in a
particular state.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
So I want to get into some of these specifics about
control states here, and there'sa few couple key terms that I
don't think the average personwould know what they are and how
they come into play.
So do you want to talk aboutspecial promotional allowances
and depletion allowances?
Speaker 5 (12:39):
Sure, just to take a step back, just sort of, because
I think I mentioned, you know,listed special order.
There are a lot of terms thatif you're not in these states
could sound a little bit like aforeign language.
So a special order is a statepurchasing product based on
(13:02):
in-state demand.
Meaning I walk into a store inMaine I say I want Kristen's
vodka.
They reach out to the supplierand for a special order for a
specific retail interest.
They purchase product tofacilitate a consumer request.
A listed item is slightlydifferent and usually a longer
process.
The states typically requirethe item starts as a special
order to indicate how muchvolume the state can actually
(13:23):
anticipate and if it's worththeir time, because a listed
item typically appears in like astate issued sort of like
ordering guide as a SKU thatthey suggest purchasing.
I was almost like literallyorder one of these 10 items,
which is always great for abrand if they can get listed
because it's on like an orderingsheet for people to know it
exists.
So special order is a lot morecommon for newer brands.
(13:46):
So they get in, they get someretail interest and then, once
there's enough interest built up, they can then petition to be
listed and the state will thensay, yeah, you've been doing
great, we're happy to take yourbrand on.
They can then sell in highervolumes, which is obviously
always the ideal to make moremoney.
And all that ties into how youwork with your broker, if
possible to help dictatein-state market trends to see if
(14:09):
you want to do a SPA specialpromotional allowance or a DA
depletion allowance.
Both are more or lessinterchangeable.
Ultimately what they are is,depending on the state they have
a different term.
But ultimately what they do isthey offer a temporary price
change to offer an incentive forthe state or consumers to want
to purchase the product on apromotional basis.
(14:32):
So, depending on the state,it'll either be a discount off
of what the wholesaler, thestate is paying, or it could be
a discount off of what thewholesaler, the state is paying,
or it could be a discount offof what the retailer is paying
to incentivize retailers to buyor hire volume to again move
more product.
So it's a marketing tool to tryto help push more volume, make
the brand look more enticing,more competitive in the market,
(14:53):
which is where that broker comesreally into play to say, hey,
your brand could do really wellif you lower the price.
Let's see what happens if youlower it by a dollar a bottle
and kind of use that to see likehow you're faring in the market
compared to other similarbrands.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
It sounds like a lot of negotiation, a lot of
probably very relationship heavyinteractions going on.
Speaker 5 (15:13):
Absolutely so.
We, mhw is the vendor or, likethe outof-state shipper, works
closely with the brokers whooperate on behalf of the
supplier in the state and insome states it's the only point
of contact the state has.
Like in New Hampshire, whereMHW is the vendor, the state
doesn't care who we are, theyonly care about the in-state
broker that is going to solicitthat brand and make that brand
(15:35):
move.
So they don't care who we are,they care that we work with the
broker they know and the brokerthat they trust.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
That's a great explanation, and I guess one of
the things for our listenersthat would be really helpful is
how can a brand best prepare fortheir control state listing?
What is like the dream scenariowhen a client comes to you and
they're ready to open up acontrol state.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Oh my goodness.
So we always say preparation iskey because a lot of what we
require and what states needultimately are things that the
client skews or the brand skewdetails need.
So you know being able toidentify or have readily
available the UPC codes and theCC codes.
You know being able to identifyor have readily available the
(16:19):
UPC codes and SCC codes.
You know the spec sheet.
Basically, as Kristen indicatedearlier, are one of the key
components of being ready toenter the control state markets,
and so you know what we tellclients normally is you know if
you're planning to get into acontrol state, get in touch with
us one to two months prior towhen you want to be in the
(16:41):
market and at the very least, wecan start talking to you about.
You know how your pricingshould look like, or you know
what the NABCA codes, or youknow submitting a NABCA codes on
your behalf could be one ofthose prep items that we could
help you know, guide you through.
So preparation is always best,is always great, and we really
push our clients to give usinformation and just be prepared
(17:04):
when they want to be in controlstates.
Does it matter?
Speaker 1 (17:08):
where you're coming from, or is it only like where
the alcohol is going to?
So if I'm based in Illinoisversus Texas or Florida or
somewhere, does that matter asmuch as I'm wanting to go into
New York?
Speaker 5 (17:23):
It's more important where you're planning to sell to
, depending on the state.
If you are domestic, it mightchange how we need to submit the
product.
Ie, pennsylvania has a specificaccommodation for Pennsylvania
produced goods going intoPennsylvania, so they offer a
lot more guidance, a lot moreleniency, a lot more options
(17:43):
because it's within the samestate.
If it's domestically producedand you're still going through
someone like an MHW as yourservice provider, we're still
acting as like an out-of-stateshipper.
So it's almost irrelevant whatstate it's coming from versus
being an international product.
It might just change how youprice the product if it's
domestic, just because yourfreight, your taxes, all that
stuff is going to play into whatyour base FOB or base price is
(18:07):
going to look like.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Merida, you brought up NABCA briefly there, so I
wasn't sure if you wanted toexplain what NABCA is and how
they come into play in all ofthis.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Good question, cassidy.
Nabca is the National AlcoholBeverage Control Association.
Basically, they are the entitythat represents the alcohol
beverage industry and theystrive, I will say, to
standardize requirements withinthe control states.
(18:37):
So all 17 control states areregistered within the NABCA
agency.
However, not all states, notall control states, I should say
, require for brands to haveNABCA codes, and so there are
states where the NABCA codeswill be the standard state code
(19:00):
and there are other states wherethey dictate their own state
code.
So we like to always ensurethat clients have the NABCA
codes when they want to go intoa control state, only because
once they have that about 50% ofthe control states, they'd
already have a state codeconnected to that.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
SKU.
And then from a tradeparticipation perspective,
Cassidy, I'm actually going totap you to chat about what we do
with the NABCA conference andhow our clients can get involved
.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
So this year it is in May.
Nabca has an annual conferenceevery year that NABCA members
are invited to attend andbasically, through MHW's
relationship with NAVCA, any ofMHW's clients can exhibit within
our booth at the trade showportion of the conference.
(20:00):
So basically, mhw has a barevery year within their booth
and a couple of our clients willjoin us and we have a bartender
that will serve cocktails witheach of the client products in
it.
We have a bartender that willserve cocktails with each of the
client products in it and alsoa representative from each of
the brands can pour samples inthe booth as well.
So it's been a really greatopportunity for our clients to
kind of get their products infront of some of the control
state important decision makers.
(20:21):
We've gotten some greatfeedback from clients in the
past, and I mean from an MHWstandpoint.
It's always great to go to theconference and meet a ton of
people who are verywell-educated and involved in
the control state fields,including Kristen, who will be
joining me at the conferencethis year.
So we're very excited.
(20:42):
If any MHW clients areinterested in participating, you
can reach out to us about thatas well.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
And that conference again is May 19th through 22nd
and it's in Kissimmee Florida.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
And your Disney trip.
Yes, Do all of the controlstates pick up from?
I imagine they're accustomed topicking up from Western and our
other warehouses, or are thereany where we have to facilitate
the logistics?
Speaker 5 (21:07):
It's actually a good question.
It actually comes up prettyfrequently.
So most of the states areprepaid, meaning that the
supplier is responsible forshipping the product at their
cost to the state.
There are a number of statesthat, depending on, obviously,
the state, they build thefreight into their cost because
they intend to consolidate theshipments with other suppliers
(21:30):
for sort of their speed and costeffectiveness.
But for the most part,especially since most of the
products start a special order,they tend to start as smaller
orders that are either FedEx,ups or ship like, on just a
smaller scale, that the clientpays directly to ship to the
state to again build up thatvolume so that they can then
(21:50):
start to ship in largerquantities and get the volume
that the state could thenpotentially consolidate and, you
know, be cheaper in the longrun.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Is there any special consideration for DTC
applications, applications?
You know, once I've got mywebsite and all my drop shipping
or whatever it is, once I'vegot that set up, is it different
if someone is trying to order aproduct to their door, whether
they're in Maine or Texas?
How much of a difficulty isthat?
Or do you need to have like a50-state strategy if you're
(22:18):
trying to do DTC correctly?
Speaker 5 (22:21):
It really is going to depend on the state.
We don't cover too too much onDTC.
The couple of times that it hascome up it typically is sort of
MHW selling to another quoteunquote in-state wholesaler as
opposed to the state board, andit kind of goes around the
control state system because theentity that's doing the DTC
(22:43):
tends to have a specific type oflicense and permit to allow
them to do so.
So it doesn't typicallyfacilitate the same way a
control state sale would.
If they could find a DTC entitythat's able to and licensed to
do it, that's great.
But it's not always the mostcost effective way to do sales
because the DTC entity might endup having a much higher margin
(23:04):
for how they mark up the priceor the profit they take before
they actually sell to consumers.
So it's definitely a numbersgame if it even makes sense for
a particular supplier.
But in theory, yes, DTC is anoption if you find the right
entity to do it.
Mhw could not be a DTC entityfor a supplier, though we're not
licensed to do so.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
So to kind of piggyback from an e-commerce
perspective, which is slightlydifferent than DTC.
There are states that have likeintra-commerce agreements with
other states and it really youkind of have to research each
individual state in terms ofwhat retailers can sell to
consumers and ship across lines.
But there are e-commercenetworks where, say, if a brand
is, you know, selling in NewYork or Florida, for example,
(23:46):
there's agreements with certainstates to be able those
consumers to be able to receiveI believe it's 38 different
states that can receiveshipments from retailers inside
of those states, for example.
So there could be, if you signup for, say, like a BevStack and
that's, you know, integratedinto the brand's website.
(24:07):
They're sort of the back officethat goes through a retailer
network that can thencompliantly ship to consumers
ordering from a retailer in adifferent state.
But it really, you know itvaries from state to state what
these agreements are and youknow what can ship and even
things down to like the type andthe category of the beverage.
(24:27):
Alcohol matters, because wineshave a little bit more
flexibility, for example, thanspirits.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
If I'm a brand and I'm just spinning up getting
things going, what's the firststeps?
To make sure that all of my T'sare crossed and I's dotted Is
the easiest thing just togenerally enter the MHW
ecosystem and from there I getreferred to the people I need to
get referred to in order tolegally enter the markets I want
to enter, or what does thatstep look like?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
So I think that each strategy for every brand is
going to be slightly differentin terms of market entry points,
expansion points that arealready in the US, and so the
best way to kind of go aboutthis is to work with the MHW
business development team tohave custom brand economics, to
talk about target demographicsand markets.
(25:16):
Ultimately, mhw is really aboutallowing the brand to control
their marketing message andreally operationalize their
sales destiny.
So that's something that ourclients really enjoy is that,
you know, we don't kind of taketheir brand and that's the last
they see of it and they hopethat it sells in the market.
They really are the drivingforce behind it.
(25:37):
So our business developmentteam will really help in that
process to understand likemargins and to customize a
proposal.
But it's really up to the brandin terms of what markets they
want to be in and from there wewould just go through the
onboarding process.
Again, they might need a brokerto solicit that interest from
the control states if they'reinterested in being purchased
(26:00):
there.
So that is something that ourteam can help advise on.
But ultimately, you know, weleave a lot of that up to the
client to determine what marketsare best for them.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
On to our final question, our fun question that
we always like to ask our guestswhat is your favorite?
We'll say adult beverage andMaridel, if you want to go first
.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
These days I've really enjoyed ranch water.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Is there a particular flavor, a particular?
Speaker 4 (26:30):
No, it could be.
It's a cocktail that could bemade with I think it's Topo
Chico and tequila, and it's justreally refreshing.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
A ranch water, straightforward and you can get
it just about everywhere.
Very popular in Houston.
Up here in Maine not so much.
Kristen, how about you?
Speaker 5 (26:48):
I would have to say I'm a big fan of a good Moscow
Mule.
The ginger beer does sometimes,you know, give me a little
heartburn, but I'm a big fan ofjust sort of how crisp and kind
of refreshing it ends up being.
It always seems to be prettylight, so I would say that
that's a fan favorite right now.
It used to be vanilla vodka andSprite.
That's my usual wedding drink,because then if I spill it on
(27:11):
myself.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
I'm good A Moscow mule and it's always good to
have an excuse to use thosecopper cups that you got in your
cupboard.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
Always Keep it nice and cold.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I want to say a huge thanks to our guests today,
kristen Cafferata and MaridelAltman, for joining us.
Speaker 5 (27:29):
Thank you everybody, thank you, thank you.
It's been a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Now, we covered a lot of information in this episode
and if there were some terms ortopics that our listeners would
like to better understand, we'llhave links in the show notes
with more resources if folkshave questions or want to follow
up.
So thank you, listeners, forjoining us on the MHW Mark
podcast, and thanks again toBridget McCabe and Cassidy Poe
for joining me in hosting.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Thank you, Jimmy, Thanks Jimmy.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
This podcast is produced by me, jimmy Moreland,
with booking and planningsupport by Cassidy Poe and
Bridget McCabe.
It's presented by MHW.
Find out more at mhwltdcom orconnect with MHW on LinkedIn.
Lend us a hand by subscribing,rating and reviewing this
podcast wherever you listen.
We'll be back in your feed intwo weeks.
We'll see you then, cheers.
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