July 29, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode, we once again welcome a returning guest for an important discussion on diversity, equity, and inclusion in the beverage alcohol industry. Host Jimmy Moreland and MHW’s Cassidy Poe chat with Women of the Vine & Spirits and Diverse Powered Brands founder Deborah Brenner about how all kinds of brands and related businesses can cultivate and incorporate inclusivity into their culture. We dive further into how the relevancy and impact of these issues differ among different age cohorts, and how to avoid potential challenges in hiring and operations.
Find out more about Women of the Vine & Spirits: Website
Also check out Diverse Powered Brands: Website
Hear our previous episode with Deborah: Episode 11
More info about MHW at https://www.mhwltd.com/
Follow us! LinkedIn | Instagram
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the MHW Mark podcast, where we take deep
dives into various aspects ofthe alcohol industry.
My name is Jimmy Moreland.
Mhw is a US and EU beveragealcohol importer, distributor
and service provider Co-hostingwith me.
Today we are welcoming backCassidy Poe.
Hello, cassidy.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hey, jimmy, always happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Cassidy Poe.
Hello Cassidy, hey Jimmy,always happy to be here, very
good to be with you.
How is New York treating you?
The listeners may already sortof know how this thing works,
but we've already recorded themain conversation.
But I didn't hear a singlesiren or crazy thing happen
outside your windows today.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I will say I was muted for a lot of that because
of the sound of my AC unit,because it is insanely hot today
here in the city.
We're supposed to hit a feelslike high of 100 degrees today.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
That's rough.
Well, I hope everyone out thereis staying cool.
If you're able, let's talkabout today's conversation.
It's a good one, it's animportant one that we've had on
this podcast before, and that isthe conversation around
diversity, equity and inclusionin the beverage alcohol industry
.
Today we add a bit of a wrinkleor perhaps it's better to think
(01:17):
of it as an axis to think aboutthis topic and that is the axis
of generational cohorts.
Now we have me I am dead centerin the millennial cohort, and
Cassidy, you're Gen Z and areyou dead center as well?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
No, I'm technically an older Gen Z.
I'm in the first couple yearsof Gen Z.
So, it's interesting.
I actually, before we recordedthis, I was Googling what the
year like, what the cutoff wasfor Gen Z, and it actually it's
like 1997 to 2012, which Ithought was very interesting.
(01:53):
Especially the 2012 part.
I was like, wow, there's a bigdifference I at least, I think
between different ages withinGen Z, and I'm sure you would
feel the same about millennialsas well.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah, I promise you listeners, this podcast does not
devolve into kids these days,but our guest is the official
representative of Gen X on thisparticular episode and she has
some really good insights on notjust her personal experiences
with her own generation, but alot of it is data-driven.
She's seen a lot of numbersabout different consumer
behaviors based on when theywere born, and that is a bit of
(02:36):
a.
It's not destiny, but it drivesbehaviors for sure.
So it's a really funconversation.
So, without further ado, we'regoing to go ahead and get into
it.
Our guest today is the founderof Women of the Vine and Spirits
, the global membershiporganization dedicated to
pushing the wine, beer andspirits industry forward in a
more diverse, equitable andinclusive era that supports
(02:57):
business development andinnovation.
Welcome back to the show, debraBrenner.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Hi Jimmy, Thank you so much for having me here today
.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
It's so good to have you back.
We love having return guests.
We don't do it very frequently,but if listeners want to get a
little bit more familiar withDebra, you can go all the way
back to episode 11 in the earlydays of the podcast and you can
listen to that episode.
But for right now, for peoplewho don't have time to do that,
can you give us a little bit ofa background about yourself and
(03:28):
just sort of reintroduceyourself?
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Oh, absolutely, thank you.
So, yeah, a lot going on sinceI was last on the podcast.
So basically, I started Womenof the Vine and Spirits as a
global membership organizationreally looking to advance and
empower women in what was atraditional male-dominated
industry.
(03:50):
I had a passion for it over 20years ago when I entered the
industry from the tech industryand just really recognized that
there was so much amazing talentand just wanted to give a
platform and an outlet for menand women across all three tiers
and all industry sectors, torecognize and to really look at
(04:14):
having more diverse teams.
They're just going to get a lotof different thinking and
started the organization nowjust over 10 years ago.
So we've come quite a long wayand within that 10 years we've
seen so many women in suchincredible leadership roles and
taking over companies andgetting promotions and all
(04:37):
sectors you know, and thewholesale tier, the retail tier,
on off the premise andsuppliers.
So it really, I think,demonstrated that once we
started having the conversationsand really talking about it, it
was really looking at the teamsand how we can make a
difference.
But with that we also looked atcertain policies and things you
(04:58):
know that would allow forempowering women into the
leadership roles, and when I saythat it's all women, you know
every woman that's in theindustry and that also shaped a
lot of decisions for companies,being able to maybe just tweak
some policies, making things alittle more flexible.
(05:20):
So that's really a lot of whatwe do, but we also are an
incredible network of people.
We can't you know, and mostpeople join trade organizations
for the networking and we justhave an incredible large amount
of people globally that are justlike-minded and want to do
business with one another.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I can vouch for that myself.
This with one another I canvouch for that myself, having
been to a couple One of theVining Spirits activations
really is a great network andeveryone's always so happy to
meet new people and give advice.
So I've been grateful for thatmyself, and I know the rest of
the women on MHW are as well.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
And we welcome all our men too.
Right, cassie?
We have all of them becausewe're kind of advancing the
industry into a more modern eratogether, you know, and breaking
all kinds of barriers togetherand you know, really reflecting.
You know what the business islike and how we support, but the
activations are always a lot offun because we've created a
(06:21):
just like companies.
Right, you have to create acompany culture and our company
culture is one of being verycollaborative, being very
supportive, celebrating eachother's wins, not competitive,
taking off the competitive hatfor the greater good of the
industry.
And I really think ourmembership has been so strong
(06:42):
because of that culture that wehave has been so strong because
of that culture that we have.
And people join because theyknow genuinely you could reach
out to our members and they'rereally very open to share and
give advice.
When I started in the industryas a wine supplier over 20 years
ago, there wasn't a lot ofplaces for me to go to.
(07:03):
It was like a secret handshakeIf you weren't in this business,
figure it out on your own andit was definitely the school of
hard knocks.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, I know a couple of our female executives have
said very similar things.
They've come a long way in theindustry as well, so we're happy
to see a lot of things changinglately.
A long way in the industry aswell, so we're happy to see a
lot of things changing lately.
We also want to switch gears alittle bit to diverse powered
(07:35):
brands.
I know a lot has changed sinceyou were last on regarding that
specifically, so do you want totell us updates on that and what
initiatives you're currentlyworking on?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Sure, it is a separate, standalone company
from Women of the Vining Spirit,so it has nothing to do with
corporate membership orindividual.
Anybody can sign up for DiversePower Brands.
The reason why I started a newcompany and more of a platform
database catalog was to empowersuppliers that were diverse, own
(08:05):
led or made, which is basicallyBIPOC, LGBTQI+, veteran women
and disabled.
These were very importantthings to consumers over the
last few years, as sociallyconscious consumerism has been
on the rise, and yet it was verydifficult for buyers to be able
(08:26):
to identify and find those inthose categories that qualified
and buyers were really seekingthem because they wanted to
satisfy their customers.
So if you owned a certain baror a certain restaurant or a
certain retail store, you have aparticular clientele.
You may want to be able to findthese.
(08:46):
That's going to surprise anddelight, and there was no easy
way to do that.
So that's what I created.
Basically, it's a veryaffordable sales and marketing
tool for brands that are diverseand they can use it as a sales
and marketing tool to buildcampaigns, to get out there and
(09:07):
to work with buyers, and we arealways working with buyers.
So, Cassidy, one of the newthings we did was.
We just did BCB Brooklyn inJune and we hosted our very
first pitch competition and thatwas very exciting in
combination with Women of theVine and Spirits and Diverse
Power Brands and the prizepackage included MHW and also in
(09:31):
the judging and it was a prizepackage worth over $51,000 with
basically our corporate membersof Women of the Vine and Spirits
lending their expertise to helpthe winner really scale their
brand.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Do we want to give a shout out to the winner of the
pitch competition?
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yes, it was Adriatico for their Amaretto and it was
wonderful.
All of the candidates weregreat.
It was wonderful, they got up,they pitched, our judges were
fantastic and you can find moreinformation about it on our
website and Diverse Power Brands.
But what we did, jimmy, was welooked need a 360-degree plan as
(10:16):
you enter as a brand into thethree-tier system in the US.
The winner happened to be fromItaly, so you can even imagine
that it's even more difficult,coming from outside of the US,
(10:39):
to understand the three-tiersystem in the US, and you really
do need to look at everythingfrom packaging to your
distribution, your importing toyour PR plans, to everything
that goes into it, in order tobe able to launch and get to
market, but also to scale andaccelerate.
(11:01):
And, of course, mhw is a bigpart of that, because that's
part of your 360 degree plan.
So that's the kind of stuffthat we're doing now really
trying to help connect peopletogether and put them into that
right holistic package.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Looking ahead.
I want to talk about, I guess,trends or forecast.
I'm asking you to.
I know it's always a littlerisky to predict the future, but
I'm curious, without gettingpolitical, there are some folks
who in the past few years havecome to view the concept of
diversity, equity and inclusionand even view just the acronym
(11:40):
almost as a curse word.
A dirty word.
Almost as a curse word, a dirtyword.
Do you feel that that's acyclical thing?
Do you feel like the pendulumwill swing?
Do you feel like it's a matterof education?
How do we sort of tackle thesesort of strange, perhaps
uniquely American, culturalshifts and how do we move
(12:00):
forward and do you see thatgoing in a positive direction
over the next, say, five to 10years?
Speaker 3 (12:05):
You know it's a very good question.
I think that the acronym andthe terms can often be
misunderstood.
I mean, most people have toGoogle what the difference
between equality and equity is.
That's a huge, huge thing thata lot of people really just
(12:26):
don't understand the nuances.
So I think that a lot of thatis problematic.
My approach in the industry isnot like, okay, we have to
educate everybody and we have todo that.
To be very honest, the way thatit works, in particular with
beverage alcohol is you're notgoing to get on the shelf,
(12:47):
You're not going to get yourproduct purchased, You're not
going to get distributionbecause of an attribute it has
to.
It is the most competitivelyglobal industry.
I mean, I worked in the techindustry and I got to tell you I
thought that moved fast andthat was competitive, and I was
in high-end technology,television and film for 16 years
(13:10):
before.
But this is highly competitive.
So I always say to people willthe pendulum swing?
It really doesn't matter, it'syou have to have the right
packaging, the right price point, the right juice in the bottle,
the right taste.
You have to know your targetaudience.
(13:31):
It's your story, your brand,your way, and if a diverse
attribute is part of that inyour DNA, then it's part of
anybody's brand in their DNA,your DNA then it's part of
anybody's brand in their DNA,regardless of what it is that
they're selling, even forcelebrities that themselves are
the brand right, and so itreally doesn't give you a foot
(13:56):
in the door and a free pass,Absolutely.
If anything, you have to workthat much harder because we know
that women and minorities getthe least amount of venture
capital out there from VCs, andyet this is a very capital
intensive endeavor to start aBevOut brand.
(14:18):
So you know why I did it was togive founders and not just
founders and owners, but alsomakers an opportunity to hone in
on that being one piece.
And then what is that wholebrand story around it?
(14:39):
That's going to resonate withyour target audience, and so it
should be part of it.
Going to resonate with yourtarget audience, and so it
should be part of it.
Going in and saying I'm awomen-owned or veteran-owned
brand is not going to getsomebody to take your product.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Deb, I want to hone in on something you've just
emphasized the target audience.
Understanding your targetaudience, the consumers it's one
of the most important thingsfor brand owners to need to
understand how to do so.
How do you think consumerexpectations regarding, like,
brand values, inclusion how hasthat evolved, and is there
(15:16):
anything that producers shoulddo to respond to that?
Is there something they shouldfocus on when marketing their
brands, and what is your adviceon that?
Speaker 3 (15:25):
I love this question, Cassidy, because just yesterday
I was looking at some thingsthat Amazon's doing and, of
course, Jimmy, back to yourquestion, with not getting
political or anything is Amazonand their sellers thing.
They talk about the value andthe importance of sharing your
(15:46):
brand values, and I love seeingwhat other you know e-commerce
sites and other retail that aredoing.
Brand values is really the mostimportant thing, right?
So it's not about a personalattribute, it's what's the value
to the brand.
So, and you have to have thatbaked into your DNA, especially
(16:09):
with younger people today, theycan see through.
It's very transparent whensomebody is being performative
and just doing something becausethey think it's going to look
good to that target audience.
So the values can be everythingfrom charities that you support,
activities that you do, thatyou support activities that you
(16:32):
do.
I'll be honest, like if youlook at like Tito's and you look
back at when he started, youknow, 20 something years ago, he
really leaned into a lot ofcharitable activities and he
started on a local level.
Doesn't need to be on anational level, could be local,
right to you know your area.
That's part of your brand value.
What is it that you value?
(16:53):
Valuing people, valuing place,valuing things that are
important to you and what yourbrand stands for and that's also
Cassie.
Then how do you find your targetaudience is those like-minded
people that are sharing in yourvalues are going to be the ones
that are going to want tosupport you, and those values
(17:15):
could be everything.
Like I love animals, you know itcould be so much that, like for
me, part of my brand valuescould be the charitable work
that I do to take care of, youknow, dogs and cats that need
and that may help shape myaudience, my target audience.
And then the activities that Ido are very authentic to my
(17:39):
brand values, because I want tobe out there supporting things
that I care about, people that Icare about.
So, yeah, brand values is,Jimmy, that's the new thing that
you're going to start seeing inpeople's profiles and brand
stories and the way that they'retalking about versus the other,
Because you really can't getpolitical about, like you're
(18:01):
saying things that you believein, things that your company
believes in.
It's how you build a companyculture, right?
I want to build my culture withpeople that value other people
and people's opinions, and youknow you may not have to agree
with everyone, but I want tovalue their opinion and let them
feel like they can share it.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Do you think we'll see more of the same, of things
moving in that direction?
Or do you think, becauseobviously there's been so many
shifts in work culture ingeneral in the last five-ish
years, with people employers inparticular trying to move away
from work from home, for example, so do you think that there's
more of a shakeup coming, or doyou think this vision you've
laid out is going to continue togrow?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Again, I think it comes down to your company, your
culture and your brand.
If your company and culture andbrand is very collaborative and
social, then working remotelymay not be the best solution for
you to be authentic to what youbelieve in.
I worked in the tech days, likeI said, in television and film.
You had all the post-productionhouses and you spent so much
(19:03):
time in post that they had pooltables and game tables and fun
things and vending machines andfood and catering.
I mean, it was basically, youknow, they built this culture
because we knew we were going tospend, you know, 24 hours,
seven days a week, until wefinished getting ready for Super
(19:24):
Bowl ads or something you know,and we were living there.
So I think it really depends onwhat it is that your culture
and your brand is all about.
So I think that we're going tosee both.
I think when you see companieslike a Patagonia, they encourage
people to be remote becausethey want you to be out in
nature.
They encourage sabbaticals.
(19:46):
My niece doesn't work for them,but works for somebody else.
She's half my age.
She had a two-month sabbaticalto go.
My niece doesn't work for thembut works for somebody else.
She's half my age.
She had a two-month sabbaticalto go trekking around the world
and said I wish I could.
You know, I think it depends onwhat that company is and what
they want from their employers.
And again, if that's what theywant their customers to be doing
like Pantagonia out there andtrekking, and Clif Bar and
(20:08):
everything else then live andbreathe and be authentic to what
your audience is.
You know, and your employeesare going to be your biggest
brand ambassadors.
So if they're out trekking,they're going to be doing it.
So it's the same thing forBevel.
I think that it's.
You know, some people love toput a suit and tie on and go
(20:29):
into an office.
Still, I ditched corporateAmerica 23 years ago, wasn't?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
for me, deb.
We touched on this a littlelast time and I think what you
just said really kind of hit theyounger generations to come and
how they're really impactingpeople's opinions on brands and
(20:59):
how brands should marketthemselves.
So I kind of want to hear howdo you think Gen Z is impacting
diversity, equity and inclusionalso, like on the consumer side,
but what you kind of juststarted to hit on from a
professional standpoint as well.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
There is so much talk about this, cassie, so the
question is absolutely importantto discuss.
You know very much like when Istarted Women of the Binding
Spirits, one of the things thatwas very frustrating is putting
an entire category of peopleinto one descriptive bucket.
(21:39):
Gen Z should not be looked atas one big bucket.
There's a lot of differenttypes of Gen Z bucket.
There's a lot of differenttypes of Gen Z, and I think
that's where we need to start asan industry to really segment
that group.
They say Gen Z's not drinking.
(22:01):
Well, let me tell you somethingI know some Gen Zers that are
partying it hard and travelingaround the world and doing all
kinds of things.
And then I have my niece who'sa Gen Z who doesn't touch
alcohol at all.
It's not her thing.
So then you have also, withoutgetting into politics, you do
(22:23):
have Gen Z demographics that arefeeling differently about
certain political views thanother Gen Zs.
There's still division in thatage group when you're talking
about things.
So why are we putting them allinto the same bucket?
I think what we need to do istalk about the Gen Zs, what
(22:46):
they're doing, who they are, andstart really segmenting that
group, because one that group instereotypes.
They want experiences.
They are traveling.
They grew up with a cell phonein their hand at the age of two,
unlike me, which didn't have acell phone when I started my
career, you know, we didn't evenhave the internet.
(23:07):
So I'm showing my age.
So they're global already, youknow.
And it's not just the pandemicthat people think makes them not
social.
Their faces in the phone 24-7,.
They're walking across streetsin Manhattan looking at their
phone and I'm like, oh my God,you're not even looking up, you
(23:27):
know.
And I'm like, oh my God, you'renot even looking up, you know.
There's so much more we shouldbe talking about in addressing
that group and embracing thepeople that want to do things
that our brand represents.
I do think that they're missinga lot of opportunity.
(23:47):
I think that it should not bean excuse why, after the
pandemic, numbers and sales aredown.
It's not down because they'renot drinking.
It's down because we're notmeeting them where they are.
And they're not all in one place.
We have to get bigger andbroader and segment the group,
and I could talk about that as awhole podcast, about meeting
(24:11):
them where they are and stuff,because that's where we can.
You know, like I said, I neverthought in my adult life that I
would go to a bar and see all ofthese younger people sipping
cocktails out of a can.
When I have a bartender to makeme a cocktail, you know I'm
like what?
So let's talk about that, right?
(24:35):
You know, let's talk about whyare they doing that, their
individuality.
There's so much I love talkingabout that if we want to talk
about it.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
It feels like an imposition.
Cassidy, as the actual youngestperson in this call, can you
back me up?
So I will often order anold-fashioned.
I like an old-fashioned, butI'll specifically say I don't
want to be, I don't want to be abother.
You know, am I close or am Ijust fully dead center
(25:16):
millennial with that?
Take Cassidy.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Um, I mean, I, I am a member of Gen Z, so I can speak
on behalf of all of us, I guess.
Um, I find it interestingbecause, like you were saying,
deb, I completely agree Like itshouldn't just be thought of one
large group who thinks the sameexact way about alcohol because
(25:41):
, to be honest, the whole thingabout like Gen Z is not drinking
.
I don't have a single person inmind off the top of my head
who's in Gen Z who doesn't drink.
That I know personally.
I do know, like, in regards tolike going to the bar ordering
cans, I have friends thatstrictly only drink RTDs when
(26:05):
they're at the bar.
I mean, another thing toconsider with that is a lot of
us don't make a ton of money yetand that is cheaper than
getting a cocktail.
So that's one thing.
Like you're saying, we have todive deeper and think of the
reasonings behind why thisbehavior is happening.
(26:25):
We're not like very highmaintenance.
We're just like it depends onthe mood.
Like, if I'm going to acocktail bar, sure, give me the
presentation Like that's whatI'm paying for, but on any given
day it's really not.
But I mean, I don't agree withthe fact that there's a
bartender Like I'm getting acocktail.
(26:45):
I'm not getting a canned drink.
I want a cocktail, so we're alldifferent.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Yeah, hey, and some bartenders especially.
You know depends on where youare High volume, you know,
opening a can is so much fasteryou can move volume Places where
you don't want glassware tobreak around pools or marinas or
stadiums and things like that.
You know RTDs are amazing andthings like that.
(27:15):
So, yeah, I mean that's whatI'm saying Like we can't put
everything into one.
Like everybody of Gen Z and Iforgot what the statistic is,
but I read something recently ofhow many Gen Zs are becoming,
you know, legal drinking ageevery single year.
It's massive.
(27:36):
So I really think that I thinkyou also touch on the fact that
it's Gen Z grew up in a mobilecell phone, global Internet
generation and they stressindividuality and not conformity
and I think that's reflectingin their drinking and I think
(28:01):
also with wine.
Wine in a bottle is to be shared.
I give credit to mel dick fromSouthern Glaciers who actually
created Wine by the Glass tosell more wine.
He was the first person tointroduce that.
I don't even know how manyyears ago.
Had to be quite a while, butone time he told me that story
(28:23):
we were just talking about,because wine, when you are going
to make an investment ofopening a bottle.
Either you drink it all byyourself or you better have some
people to share it with, andthat's now.
It's pretty hard to find.
Like you said, cassie, you goto the bar, everybody's drinking
something different.
So wine by the glass isexploding and that's building
(28:44):
that market and now it'sbecoming wine and RTDs.
I got lots of people I workwith that have canned wines and
things.
So again it's.
It is an individuality, anon-conformity and convenience
convenience in price.
You know, these are things wereally have to be talking about.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Makes me think of wine in a box.
It started as a collegephenomenon, at least for my age,
that people were only reallydrinking wine in a box, and the
whole selling point is basicallyyou're saving money because you
(29:35):
don't have to drink it allright away, because it'll last
longer.
I opened a bottle of wine lastnight.
I was sharing, we had twoglasses and then we realized we
didn't want any more.
We have a whole bottle left.
It's like oh, we're leaving forthe weekend, I guess we're out
of luck.
But if it's boxed wine, it's awhole other left.
It's like, oh, we're leavingfor the weekend, I guess we're
out of luck, but if it's boxedwine, it's a whole other
situation.
So that kind of comes into playtoo the convenience of it all.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
You know it's so funny when you think that, and I
mean I'm not starting anotherbrand, but I've yet to see line
in a box like a kid's juice boxwhere it's single serve.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Like a pre-sun.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
And you don't need to spend the money on aluminum for
a can.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Wine in a pouch.
That's a good idea.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Right, Because I mean , I think about all the little
kids.
They peel off the straw andstick it in.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Your sippy cup, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Instead of like a big wine in the box, I can take it
with me.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Listeners, stay tuned .
One year from now, we will havethat brand on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Maybe one of your clients, cassidy for MHW.
But yeah, these are really.
I love talking about thedemographics and the different
people and stuff because mybackground is in marketing and
business development, so I loveexploring and having these
conversations.
We'll have to talk about it aswell, but that's also the kind
(31:02):
of stuff that I talk a lot with.
Our brands in both Women of theVine and Spirits and in diverse
power brands is no pun intended,or I should say pun intended.
Think out of the box.
You got to differentiatebecause the competition is so
huge.
Growing up, we were maybe fivevodka brands were out there.
(31:27):
You know our liquor stores werelocal and small and family
owned and operated and just theamount of options and choices
out there, it's incredible.
So you really have to know whatdifferentiates yours and then
just lean into that and realizethat you know.
(31:50):
Just lean into that and realizethat you know if you're selling
a Mercedes, that's your targetaudience.
That's going to be verydifferent than selling a Toyota,
corolla or something else.
You know like you just stay inyour lane and being niche can
actually be very lucrativeversus trying to appeal to the
(32:13):
masses.
That's really hard.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Not to put Gen Z or any generation back in a box
here, but in terms of diversityand those brand values, do you
see people in the youngergenerations caring more about
brand story compared to theolder generations, or is that a
(32:37):
myth we've all been hearing?
Speaker 3 (32:41):
I think that, to your point, if we put them in one
bucket I don't want to puteverybody in one bucket there's
a lot of people that are verywell off, but a majority are
just entering the workforce andthey're not making a lot of
money and they're on their own.
So I think that price and tasteis, first and foremost, the
(33:03):
most important thing forcapturing that audience, because
they are limited in what theycan spend.
I can tell you I am even olderthan you guys, because I think
I'm considered Gen X, you know.
The thing is is that brandsthat were really popular back in
the day they didn't innovate,so things that my grandparents
(33:26):
drank, my parents drank, some ofthose brands don't exist.
And then you see brands thatare celebrating their 500th year
, like Disarono and other things.
So what makes that happen?
Some are cocktails, right, youhave some cocktails that were so
popular back in the day and nowthose are no longer even talked
(33:49):
about.
Now there's a resurgent of someof those retro cocktails coming
back into play.
So, but I still think brandstory is important, but the
other parts have to be therefirst, which is, you know, the
price and and the flavor and thetaste.
I will tell you.
Brand story is really importantwhen you mess up, because for
(34:13):
Gen Z, everything is at the tipof their fingers and so if you
mess up something that doesn'tresonate as part of your DNA,
then they're going to call youout on it immediately.
So I think your brand story andyour brand values is very
important so that you stay inyour lane.
(34:35):
Now again, not gettingpolitical but if your brand
values is to a very certainniche group and maybe I don't
agree with that, but there's awhole market that does then you
got to stay on point to that anddon't flip-flop, because your
(34:57):
loyal brand followers are goingto say what did you just do?
I don't even have to use theexample I think it's probably
already coming in your head of acouple of things that have
happened where somebodyflip-flopped and forgot what is
our brand value, but what's ourvalues of our consumer?
Make sure they're aligned.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
We've talked a lot about authenticity.
That's probably the biggestbuzzword of this podcast over
the last year and change thatwe've been doing it.
Can we talk about sort of thatauthenticity as it relates to, I
guess, the less public-facingside, so not necessarily in
advertising and marketing andall of those sort of consumer
(35:39):
communication channels, but morein?
I'm thinking in hiringpractices and things like that?
What are you seeing brands andother people in the space in
this industry do to try toattract talent that sort of
aligns with their principles andso forth?
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Absolutely.
I mean, again, it all comesdown to your brand values and
the company culture.
So you know you want to attractpeople that are going to share
your values, because they aregoing to be your biggest brand
ambassadors, you know, andthey're going to be the ones
that go out there and it doesn'tmatter what capacity they work
(36:18):
in, it doesn't matter if theywork in the warehouse, they work
on a forklift or they, you know, are doing admin work or
they're marketing, and that theystill want to have pride in the
company that they work with,and part of that pride is to be
able to enjoy the products thatthe company makes and to
introduce friends and family tothose products, right?
(36:40):
So you really want to make surethat you're hiring and that is,
that you talk about yourcompany's and your brand's
values and you should be askingvery specific questions during
the hiring process to get abetter understanding of their
values and to make sure it'sgoing to be a good fit.
(37:00):
One make sure it's a good fitbecause they're going to be
again representing your brand.
But also, we all have hadexperiences, I'm sure, in
listeners, where you hiresomebody that doesn't share in
that and it can upset the entireapple cart, as they say, one
bad apple.
It's like, all of a sudden, andagain, everybody can have
(37:23):
opinions and do things andbelieve in different things.
It's how the company culture isto make you feel like your
opinion matters regardless.
If we agree or disagree, it'sokay, but then I expect you to
be tolerant to other people inmy organization as well.
(37:45):
So I think it's it really andif your brand does really have,
you know, a forward facing, likeyou said, it's not, you know,
you really want to make surethat you look for that in your
hiring, because it could be acontradiction in, you know, in
their values.
Like I said, you know, if mybrand was built on the love of
(38:06):
animals, I may ask somepertinent questions about you
know, do you have any pets?
Did you grow up with any pets?
Did you?
You know, do you like to go tothe zoo?
I mean, you need to think abouthow you want your company, your
brand, to be represented andtolerance for different things.
You know, believe it or not,when I worked in that tech film,
(38:27):
I remember going into studioswhere all they did was make
these hunting videos, you know,and stuff.
They're very big on channelsand stuff of people watching it
and I knew that there's no way Icould work there, because I
wouldn't be able to edit and dothat stuff all day long.
(38:49):
I would cringe.
So it's, you know, it's likeeverything.
So share your values right upfront, because the person on the
other side of the table,they're not going to want to
work for you either Because,like I said, I don't want to sit
there and watch those videosall day long.
I certainly didn't want tomarket them and sell them.
(39:09):
So you know funny examples, butI don't want to.
I don't want to market them andsell them.
So you know funny examples, butI don't want to.
I don't want to call anybodyout particularly so but I think,
yeah, I think that's reallyimportant you know, I wanted to
ask beyond like making sure thatyour hiring practices are
representative of your values.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
How do you think, like amongst a brand's employees
, how best should they fosterinclusion and belonging?
What kind of things can they doto kind of make sure that that
company culture is upheld?
It could be something likebecoming a member of Woman of
the Vine and Spirits.
I just want to hear if you haveany other ideas for our
(39:51):
listeners, to kind of pick yourbrain here.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Well, I love you saying that, cassidy, because
that's one way that we reallytell people as part of building
that.
The other thing is, you have toreally listen as leaders.
You need to empower yourleaders to intervene and also to
help foster that sense.
(40:15):
So, for example, just givingexamples of what do I mean I'm
in a meeting I may be middlemanagement, I'm not in executive
management.
I'm in a meeting with some teammembers and somebody is saying
something that maybe sounds alittle derogatory, could be
something that's a little bitmakes people not feel inclusive,
(40:35):
maybe cutting them off, notwanting to hear what somebody
has to say, or being derogatorybecause of their position and
title.
As a leader.
It doesn't matter what positionyou're in.
It's your job as a companyculture to say wait, wait, wait.
I'd love to hear what Cassidyhas to say.
Hang on, jimmy.
I want to hear what Cassidy hasto say.
(40:57):
Cassidy, please, you know, orhang on a second, jimmy.
What were you talking about?
Or say to somebody like well,you know, we really don't talk
about certain groups like thathere.
It's not the way we want, youknow, to talk about people, and
I think that's where you empoweryour people.
Again, going back to Women ofthe Binding Spirits, of
(41:19):
empowering people.
The company should feel thatpeople are empowered to do that
and that's how you create andsustain a company culture that
you want in your.
Because we've all been incompanies I say we all I have in
my past where the companyculture was a bit toxic, and I
(41:40):
tried in the old days becausethis was very, very different.
When I entered the workforce inthe late 80s, early 90s,
showing my age, there wasn't.
First of all, I never evenheard of HR.
I didn't know what that evenmeant.
So I think that those types ofenvironments it's because the
company culture has thatenvironment.
(42:00):
And if you're going to develop acompany culture built on
competition and on cutthroat andwho wins and who loses, that's
exactly what you're going to getand if that's how you want to
build it, I mean it's yourcompany.
But that's not the company Iwanted to be in and so at the
end I ended up leaving mycorporate life because I
(42:23):
couldn't find the right fit backin those days.
But I was seeking it and Istill think today, and I think a
lot of people are realizingthat you know you've got to find
the right fit and then you willthrive as an employee.
You will get advancement andyou will enjoy what you're doing
.
And some people they love goinginto a cutthroat, competitive
(42:48):
environment and they gravitateto those particular cultures
because that's what they like todo.
I don't want to work there.
That's why we can't puteverybody in a box.
That's right.
We can't say that everybody'slike that.
I mean some people put on asuit and tie, go down to Wall
Street and cut each other'sthroats, stab people in the back
(43:08):
and they're having a ball.
And it's just not me.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
If I came to you as a new brand and say I don't say I
don't check any boxes for anykind of DEI, I'm just a regular
plain old white guy which I evenunderstand, like that framing
is probably problematic in someways.
But say I didn't evenunderstand that you know.
But say my heart is in theright place and for, not just
(43:37):
for purely capitalistic,greed-based reasons.
I do want to reach out to someof these communities that I
might not personally have a lotin common with with.
How might I foster those kindsof relationships in a way that
is authentic despite not beingauthentic to me as an individual
?
How might I start doing thatwork?
Speaker 3 (43:59):
I think it's a wonderful question, I mean with
Women of the Vine and Spirits.
You know, we have lots ofdifferent groups and affinity
groups.
We have people that sit in andthey join these conversations
for listening and learning andto understand.
That is the best way to do it,you know, is to get in these
conversations and really learnabout things that you just may
(44:22):
not have an understanding about.
It's a group that you, you know, don't necessarily, like you
said, feel like youauthentically belong.
I think those are absolutegreat ways.
I think for me, it's reallyimportant for people to listen
in and understand theperspective of other people, and
I also do like to say that whenI talk about inclusion and
(44:47):
equity and everything, I alwaysuse the example, jimmy, of like
the tip of the iceberg.
So what happens is, when yousee me, you know as human beings
, we make very fast judgments.
It's part of our fight orflight to keep us safe.
And you're looking at the colorof my skin and my and the color
of my hair, and you know this.
Am I five feet tall or am I,you know, six, two or what am I
(45:11):
wearing?
All these things that weimmediately make?
What you're not seeing is.
That's just the tip of theiceberg.
What you're not seeing iseverything below the water, and
what you're not seeing is wheredid I grow up?
Maybe I grew up reallyimpoverished.
Maybe I grew up without aneducation.
Maybe I had to go to workbecause my family was in peril.
Maybe I didn't get to do things.
(45:32):
Maybe I was very sick as achild.
Maybe I had other issues.
Maybe I'm neurodiverse.
Maybe I grew up in othersituations.
Those are the things that I wishpeople would understand.
That is diversity to me.
That's what diversity means tome.
It is not all the things thatis talked about.
(45:53):
It's the fact that, as humans,we all come to problem solving
and issues and things sodifferently because of what's
below the water, and so when youhire people of all those
different things, that's whereyour magic happens, because I
(46:13):
don't know certain things.
I didn't grow up in a fancycountry club.
I didn't grow up with verywealthy parents, so I only know
what I know.
I don't know what I don't know.
So I want to surround myselfwith people that grew up and has
things below the waterline andI want to bubble them up and
(46:36):
find their superpowers.
So that's how I like todescribe it.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
We're going to go to our fun final question here, and
that question is what is yourfavorite cocktail?
Now I listened back to youranswer in episode 11 when you
were first on, and your answerthere was the paper plane.
Is that still your answer orhave you changed?
Speaker 3 (46:59):
You know I know it sounds lame I don't have a
favorite.
It's what I'm in the mood forand what the setting is, and I
think I have a favorite based onmy mood and the setting.
So like it's July and I'moutside and I'm on an Aperol
spritz and it's so pretty and itlooks great and it's fun, or
(47:22):
I'm by a pool and I'm going tohave an RTD because I can't have
glass, or I'm in a fancycocktail place like Cassie and I
want the full-blown mixologything going on, and a lot of
times I'm also a very purist ofjust vodka and soda.
So that's kind of like, okay, Idon't want too many calories,
but I kind of want somethingrefreshing.
(47:44):
So, yeah, I think it reallydepends.
So if I have to answer now, Ijust say I'm outside and it's
really cool, and when I sip anAperol Spritz it brings me back
to fond memories of being at VinItaly and being in Verona and
stuff.
So, again, cocktails, it's liketime travel for me.
(48:05):
It kind of takes me back tosome of my happy places.
So that's why it depends onwhere I am.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
That's lovely and very poetic.
Love that answer.
Thank you so much as always forstopping by.
For listeners who want to checkout more, womenofthevinecom is
the website for Women of theVine and Spirits.
There's alsodiversepoweredbrandscom.
We'll put links to all of thatand more in the show notes so
(48:32):
that you can follow up.
Deborah Brenner, thank you forstopping by again.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
And thank you listeners for joining us on the
MHW Mark podcast and thanksagain to Cassidy Poe for joining
me and hosting.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Thanks for having me again, Jimmy.
It was a fun time.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
This podcast is produced by me, Jimmy Moreland,
with booking and planningsupport by Cassidy Poe and
Bridget McCabe.
It's presented by MHW.
Find out more at mhwltdcom orconnect with MHW on LinkedIn.
Lend us a hand by subscribing,rating and reviewing this
podcast wherever you listen.
We'll be back in your feed intwo weeks.
We'll see you then.
Cheers, Bye.
Welcome to the MHW Mark podcast, where we take deep
dives into various aspects ofthe alcohol industry.
My name is Jimmy Moreland.
Mhw is a US and EU beveragealcohol importer, distributor
and service provider Co-hostingwith me.
Today we are welcoming backCassidy Poe.
Hello, cassidy.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hey, jimmy, always happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Cassidy Poe.
Hello Cassidy, hey Jimmy,always happy to be here, very
good to be with you.
How is New York treating you?
The listeners may already sortof know how this thing works,
but we've already recorded themain conversation.
But I didn't hear a singlesiren or crazy thing happen
outside your windows today.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I will say I was muted for a lot of that because
of the sound of my AC unit,because it is insanely hot today
here in the city.
We're supposed to hit a feelslike high of 100 degrees today.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
That's rough.
Well, I hope everyone out thereis staying cool.
If you're able, let's talkabout today's conversation.
It's a good one, it's animportant one that we've had on
this podcast before, and that isthe conversation around
diversity, equity and inclusionin the beverage alcohol industry
.
Today we add a bit of a wrinkleor perhaps it's better to think
(01:17):
of it as an axis to think aboutthis topic and that is the axis
of generational cohorts.
Now we have me I am dead centerin the millennial cohort, and
Cassidy, you're Gen Z and areyou dead center as well?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
No, I'm technically an older Gen Z.
I'm in the first couple yearsof Gen Z.
So, it's interesting.
I actually, before we recordedthis, I was Googling what the
year like, what the cutoff wasfor Gen Z, and it actually it's
like 1997 to 2012, which Ithought was very interesting.
(01:53):
Especially the 2012 part.
I was like, wow, there's a bigdifference I at least, I think
between different ages withinGen Z, and I'm sure you would
feel the same about millennialsas well.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah, I promise you listeners, this podcast does not
devolve into kids these days,but our guest is the official
representative of Gen X on thisparticular episode and she has
some really good insights on notjust her personal experiences
with her own generation, but alot of it is data-driven.
She's seen a lot of numbersabout different consumer
behaviors based on when theywere born, and that is a bit of
(02:36):
a.
It's not destiny, but it drivesbehaviors for sure.
So it's a really funconversation.
So, without further ado, we'regoing to go ahead and get into
it.
Our guest today is the founderof Women of the Vine and Spirits
, the global membershiporganization dedicated to
pushing the wine, beer andspirits industry forward in a
more diverse, equitable andinclusive era that supports
(02:57):
business development andinnovation.
Welcome back to the show, debraBrenner.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Hi Jimmy, Thank you so much for having me here today
.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
It's so good to have you back.
We love having return guests.
We don't do it very frequently,but if listeners want to get a
little bit more familiar withDebra, you can go all the way
back to episode 11 in the earlydays of the podcast and you can
listen to that episode.
But for right now, for peoplewho don't have time to do that,
can you give us a little bit ofa background about yourself and
(03:28):
just sort of reintroduceyourself?
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Oh, absolutely, thank you.
So, yeah, a lot going on sinceI was last on the podcast.
So basically, I started Womenof the Vine and Spirits as a
global membership organizationreally looking to advance and
empower women in what was atraditional male-dominated
industry.
(03:50):
I had a passion for it over 20years ago when I entered the
industry from the tech industryand just really recognized that
there was so much amazing talentand just wanted to give a
platform and an outlet for menand women across all three tiers
and all industry sectors, torecognize and to really look at
(04:14):
having more diverse teams.
They're just going to get a lotof different thinking and
started the organization nowjust over 10 years ago.
So we've come quite a long wayand within that 10 years we've
seen so many women in suchincredible leadership roles and
taking over companies andgetting promotions and all
(04:37):
sectors you know, and thewholesale tier, the retail tier,
on off the premise andsuppliers.
So it really, I think,demonstrated that once we
started having the conversationsand really talking about it, it
was really looking at the teamsand how we can make a
difference.
But with that we also looked atcertain policies and things you
(04:58):
know that would allow forempowering women into the
leadership roles, and when I saythat it's all women, you know
every woman that's in theindustry and that also shaped a
lot of decisions for companies,being able to maybe just tweak
some policies, making things alittle more flexible.
(05:20):
So that's really a lot of whatwe do, but we also are an
incredible network of people.
We can't you know, and mostpeople join trade organizations
for the networking and we justhave an incredible large amount
of people globally that are justlike-minded and want to do
business with one another.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I can vouch for that myself.
This with one another I canvouch for that myself, having
been to a couple One of theVining Spirits activations
really is a great network andeveryone's always so happy to
meet new people and give advice.
So I've been grateful for thatmyself, and I know the rest of
the women on MHW are as well.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
And we welcome all our men too.
Right, cassie?
We have all of them becausewe're kind of advancing the
industry into a more modern eratogether, you know, and breaking
all kinds of barriers togetherand you know, really reflecting.
You know what the business islike and how we support, but the
activations are always a lot offun because we've created a
(06:21):
just like companies.
Right, you have to create acompany culture and our company
culture is one of being verycollaborative, being very
supportive, celebrating eachother's wins, not competitive,
taking off the competitive hatfor the greater good of the
industry.
And I really think ourmembership has been so strong
(06:42):
because of that culture that wehave has been so strong because
of that culture that we have.
And people join because theyknow genuinely you could reach
out to our members and they'rereally very open to share and
give advice.
When I started in the industryas a wine supplier over 20 years
ago, there wasn't a lot ofplaces for me to go to.
(07:03):
It was like a secret handshakeIf you weren't in this business,
figure it out on your own andit was definitely the school of
hard knocks.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, I know a couple of our female executives have
said very similar things.
They've come a long way in theindustry as well, so we're happy
to see a lot of things changinglately.
A long way in the industry aswell, so we're happy to see a
lot of things changing lately.
We also want to switch gears alittle bit to diverse powered
(07:35):
brands.
I know a lot has changed sinceyou were last on regarding that
specifically, so do you want totell us updates on that and what
initiatives you're currentlyworking on?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Sure, it is a separate, standalone company
from Women of the Vining Spirit,so it has nothing to do with
corporate membership orindividual.
Anybody can sign up for DiversePower Brands.
The reason why I started a newcompany and more of a platform
database catalog was to empowersuppliers that were diverse, own
(08:05):
led or made, which is basicallyBIPOC, LGBTQI+, veteran women
and disabled.
These were very importantthings to consumers over the
last few years, as sociallyconscious consumerism has been
on the rise, and yet it was verydifficult for buyers to be able
(08:26):
to identify and find those inthose categories that qualified
and buyers were really seekingthem because they wanted to
satisfy their customers.
So if you owned a certain baror a certain restaurant or a
certain retail store, you have aparticular clientele.
You may want to be able to findthese.
(08:46):
That's going to surprise anddelight, and there was no easy
way to do that.
So that's what I created.
Basically, it's a veryaffordable sales and marketing
tool for brands that are diverseand they can use it as a sales
and marketing tool to buildcampaigns, to get out there and
(09:07):
to work with buyers, and we arealways working with buyers.
So, Cassidy, one of the newthings we did was.
We just did BCB Brooklyn inJune and we hosted our very
first pitch competition and thatwas very exciting in
combination with Women of theVine and Spirits and Diverse
Power Brands and the prizepackage included MHW and also in
(09:31):
the judging and it was a prizepackage worth over $51,000 with
basically our corporate membersof Women of the Vine and Spirits
lending their expertise to helpthe winner really scale their
brand.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Do we want to give a shout out to the winner of the
pitch competition?
Speaker 3 (09:51):
Yes, it was Adriatico for their Amaretto and it was
wonderful.
All of the candidates weregreat.
It was wonderful, they got up,they pitched, our judges were
fantastic and you can find moreinformation about it on our
website and Diverse Power Brands.
But what we did, jimmy, was welooked need a 360-degree plan as
(10:16):
you enter as a brand into thethree-tier system in the US.
The winner happened to be fromItaly, so you can even imagine
that it's even more difficult,coming from outside of the US,
(10:39):
to understand the three-tiersystem in the US, and you really
do need to look at everythingfrom packaging to your
distribution, your importing toyour PR plans, to everything
that goes into it, in order tobe able to launch and get to
market, but also to scale andaccelerate.
(11:01):
And, of course, mhw is a bigpart of that, because that's
part of your 360 degree plan.
So that's the kind of stuffthat we're doing now really
trying to help connect peopletogether and put them into that
right holistic package.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Looking ahead.
I want to talk about, I guess,trends or forecast.
I'm asking you to.
I know it's always a littlerisky to predict the future, but
I'm curious, without gettingpolitical, there are some folks
who in the past few years havecome to view the concept of
diversity, equity and inclusionand even view just the acronym
(11:40):
almost as a curse word.
A dirty word.
Almost as a curse word, a dirtyword.
Do you feel that that's acyclical thing?
Do you feel like the pendulumwill swing?
Do you feel like it's a matterof education?
How do we sort of tackle thesesort of strange, perhaps
uniquely American, culturalshifts and how do we move
(12:00):
forward and do you see thatgoing in a positive direction
over the next, say, five to 10years?
Speaker 3 (12:05):
You know it's a very good question.
I think that the acronym andthe terms can often be
misunderstood.
I mean, most people have toGoogle what the difference
between equality and equity is.
That's a huge, huge thing thata lot of people really just
(12:26):
don't understand the nuances.
So I think that a lot of thatis problematic.
My approach in the industry isnot like, okay, we have to
educate everybody and we have todo that.
To be very honest, the way thatit works, in particular with
beverage alcohol is you're notgoing to get on the shelf,
(12:47):
You're not going to get yourproduct purchased, You're not
going to get distributionbecause of an attribute it has
to.
It is the most competitivelyglobal industry.
I mean, I worked in the techindustry and I got to tell you I
thought that moved fast andthat was competitive, and I was
in high-end technology,television and film for 16 years
(13:10):
before.
But this is highly competitive.
So I always say to people willthe pendulum swing?
It really doesn't matter, it'syou have to have the right
packaging, the right price point, the right juice in the bottle,
the right taste.
You have to know your targetaudience.
(13:31):
It's your story, your brand,your way, and if a diverse
attribute is part of that inyour DNA, then it's part of
anybody's brand in their DNA,your DNA then it's part of
anybody's brand in their DNA,regardless of what it is that
they're selling, even forcelebrities that themselves are
the brand right, and so itreally doesn't give you a foot
(13:56):
in the door and a free pass,Absolutely.
If anything, you have to workthat much harder because we know
that women and minorities getthe least amount of venture
capital out there from VCs, andyet this is a very capital
intensive endeavor to start aBevOut brand.
(14:18):
So you know why I did it was togive founders and not just
founders and owners, but alsomakers an opportunity to hone in
on that being one piece.
And then what is that wholebrand story around it?
(14:39):
That's going to resonate withyour target audience, and so it
should be part of it.
Going to resonate with yourtarget audience, and so it
should be part of it.
Going in and saying I'm awomen-owned or veteran-owned
brand is not going to getsomebody to take your product.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Deb, I want to hone in on something you've just
emphasized the target audience.
Understanding your targetaudience, the consumers it's one
of the most important thingsfor brand owners to need to
understand how to do so.
How do you think consumerexpectations regarding, like,
brand values, inclusion how hasthat evolved, and is there
(15:16):
anything that producers shoulddo to respond to that?
Is there something they shouldfocus on when marketing their
brands, and what is your adviceon that?
Speaker 3 (15:25):
I love this question, Cassidy, because just yesterday
I was looking at some thingsthat Amazon's doing and, of
course, Jimmy, back to yourquestion, with not getting
political or anything is Amazonand their sellers thing.
They talk about the value andthe importance of sharing your
(15:46):
brand values, and I love seeingwhat other you know e-commerce
sites and other retail that aredoing.
Brand values is really the mostimportant thing, right?
So it's not about a personalattribute, it's what's the value
to the brand.
So, and you have to have thatbaked into your DNA, especially
(16:09):
with younger people today, theycan see through.
It's very transparent whensomebody is being performative
and just doing something becausethey think it's going to look
good to that target audience.
So the values can be everythingfrom charities that you support,
activities that you do, thatyou support activities that you
(16:32):
do.
I'll be honest, like if youlook at like Tito's and you look
back at when he started, youknow, 20 something years ago, he
really leaned into a lot ofcharitable activities and he
started on a local level.
Doesn't need to be on anational level, could be local,
right to you know your area.
That's part of your brand value.
What is it that you value?
(16:53):
Valuing people, valuing place,valuing things that are
important to you and what yourbrand stands for and that's also
Cassie.
Then how do you find your targetaudience is those like-minded
people that are sharing in yourvalues are going to be the ones
that are going to want tosupport you, and those values
(17:15):
could be everything.
Like I love animals, you know itcould be so much that, like for
me, part of my brand valuescould be the charitable work
that I do to take care of, youknow, dogs and cats that need
and that may help shape myaudience, my target audience.
And then the activities that Ido are very authentic to my
(17:39):
brand values, because I want tobe out there supporting things
that I care about, people that Icare about.
So, yeah, brand values is,Jimmy, that's the new thing that
you're going to start seeing inpeople's profiles and brand
stories and the way that they'retalking about versus the other,
Because you really can't getpolitical about, like you're
(18:01):
saying things that you believein, things that your company
believes in.
It's how you build a companyculture, right?
I want to build my culture withpeople that value other people
and people's opinions, and youknow you may not have to agree
with everyone, but I want tovalue their opinion and let them
feel like they can share it.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Do you think we'll see more of the same, of things
moving in that direction?
Or do you think, becauseobviously there's been so many
shifts in work culture ingeneral in the last five-ish
years, with people employers inparticular trying to move away
from work from home, for example, so do you think that there's
more of a shakeup coming, or doyou think this vision you've
laid out is going to continue togrow?
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Again, I think it comes down to your company, your
culture and your brand.
If your company and culture andbrand is very collaborative and
social, then working remotelymay not be the best solution for
you to be authentic to what youbelieve in.
I worked in the tech days, likeI said, in television and film.
You had all the post-productionhouses and you spent so much
(19:03):
time in post that they had pooltables and game tables and fun
things and vending machines andfood and catering.
I mean, it was basically, youknow, they built this culture
because we knew we were going tospend, you know, 24 hours,
seven days a week, until wefinished getting ready for Super
(19:24):
Bowl ads or something you know,and we were living there.
So I think it really depends onwhat it is that your culture
and your brand is all about.
So I think that we're going tosee both.
I think when you see companieslike a Patagonia, they encourage
people to be remote becausethey want you to be out in
nature.
They encourage sabbaticals.
(19:46):
My niece doesn't work for them,but works for somebody else.
She's half my age.
She had a two-month sabbaticalto go.
My niece doesn't work for thembut works for somebody else.
She's half my age.
She had a two-month sabbaticalto go trekking around the world
and said I wish I could.
You know, I think it depends onwhat that company is and what
they want from their employers.
And again, if that's what theywant their customers to be doing
like Pantagonia out there andtrekking, and Clif Bar and
(20:08):
everything else then live andbreathe and be authentic to what
your audience is.
You know, and your employeesare going to be your biggest
brand ambassadors.
So if they're out trekking,they're going to be doing it.
So it's the same thing forBevel.
I think that it's.
You know, some people love toput a suit and tie on and go
(20:29):
into an office.
Still, I ditched corporateAmerica 23 years ago, wasn't?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
for me, deb.
We touched on this a littlelast time and I think what you
just said really kind of hit theyounger generations to come and
how they're really impactingpeople's opinions on brands and
(20:59):
how brands should marketthemselves.
So I kind of want to hear howdo you think Gen Z is impacting
diversity, equity and inclusionalso, like on the consumer side,
but what you kind of juststarted to hit on from a
professional standpoint as well.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
There is so much talk about this, cassie, so the
question is absolutely importantto discuss.
You know very much like when Istarted Women of the Binding
Spirits, one of the things thatwas very frustrating is putting
an entire category of peopleinto one descriptive bucket.
(21:39):
Gen Z should not be looked atas one big bucket.
There's a lot of differenttypes of Gen Z bucket.
There's a lot of differenttypes of Gen Z, and I think
that's where we need to start asan industry to really segment
that group.
They say Gen Z's not drinking.
(22:01):
Well, let me tell you somethingI know some Gen Zers that are
partying it hard and travelingaround the world and doing all
kinds of things.
And then I have my niece who'sa Gen Z who doesn't touch
alcohol at all.
It's not her thing.
So then you have also, withoutgetting into politics, you do
(22:23):
have Gen Z demographics that arefeeling differently about
certain political views thanother Gen Zs.
There's still division in thatage group when you're talking
about things.
So why are we putting them allinto the same bucket?
I think what we need to do istalk about the Gen Zs, what
(22:46):
they're doing, who they are, andstart really segmenting that
group, because one that group instereotypes.
They want experiences.
They are traveling.
They grew up with a cell phonein their hand at the age of two,
unlike me, which didn't have acell phone when I started my
career, you know, we didn't evenhave the internet.
(23:07):
So I'm showing my age.
So they're global already, youknow.
And it's not just the pandemicthat people think makes them not
social.
Their faces in the phone 24-7,.
They're walking across streetsin Manhattan looking at their
phone and I'm like, oh my God,you're not even looking up, you
(23:27):
know.
And I'm like, oh my God, you'renot even looking up, you know.
There's so much more we shouldbe talking about in addressing
that group and embracing thepeople that want to do things
that our brand represents.
I do think that they're missinga lot of opportunity.
(23:47):
I think that it should not bean excuse why, after the
pandemic, numbers and sales aredown.
It's not down because they'renot drinking.
It's down because we're notmeeting them where they are.
And they're not all in one place.
We have to get bigger andbroader and segment the group,
and I could talk about that as awhole podcast, about meeting
(24:11):
them where they are and stuff,because that's where we can.
You know, like I said, I neverthought in my adult life that I
would go to a bar and see all ofthese younger people sipping
cocktails out of a can.
When I have a bartender to makeme a cocktail, you know I'm
like what?
So let's talk about that, right?
(24:35):
You know, let's talk about whyare they doing that, their
individuality.
There's so much I love talkingabout that if we want to talk
about it.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
It feels like an imposition.
Cassidy, as the actual youngestperson in this call, can you
back me up?
So I will often order anold-fashioned.
I like an old-fashioned, butI'll specifically say I don't
want to be, I don't want to be abother.
You know, am I close or am Ijust fully dead center
(25:16):
millennial with that?
Take Cassidy.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Um, I mean, I, I am a member of Gen Z, so I can speak
on behalf of all of us, I guess.
Um, I find it interestingbecause, like you were saying,
deb, I completely agree Like itshouldn't just be thought of one
large group who thinks the sameexact way about alcohol because
(25:41):
, to be honest, the whole thingabout like Gen Z is not drinking
.
I don't have a single person inmind off the top of my head
who's in Gen Z who doesn't drink.
That I know personally.
I do know, like, in regards tolike going to the bar ordering
cans, I have friends thatstrictly only drink RTDs when
(26:05):
they're at the bar.
I mean, another thing toconsider with that is a lot of
us don't make a ton of money yetand that is cheaper than
getting a cocktail.
So that's one thing.
Like you're saying, we have todive deeper and think of the
reasonings behind why thisbehavior is happening.
(26:25):
We're not like very highmaintenance.
We're just like it depends onthe mood.
Like, if I'm going to acocktail bar, sure, give me the
presentation Like that's whatI'm paying for, but on any given
day it's really not.
But I mean, I don't agree withthe fact that there's a
bartender Like I'm getting acocktail.
(26:45):
I'm not getting a canned drink.
I want a cocktail, so we're alldifferent.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Yeah, hey, and some bartenders especially.
You know depends on where youare High volume, you know,
opening a can is so much fasteryou can move volume Places where
you don't want glassware tobreak around pools or marinas or
stadiums and things like that.
You know RTDs are amazing andthings like that.
(27:15):
So, yeah, I mean that's whatI'm saying Like we can't put
everything into one.
Like everybody of Gen Z and Iforgot what the statistic is,
but I read something recently ofhow many Gen Zs are becoming,
you know, legal drinking ageevery single year.
It's massive.
(27:36):
So I really think that I thinkyou also touch on the fact that
it's Gen Z grew up in a mobilecell phone, global Internet
generation and they stressindividuality and not conformity
and I think that's reflectingin their drinking and I think
(28:01):
also with wine.
Wine in a bottle is to be shared.
I give credit to mel dick fromSouthern Glaciers who actually
created Wine by the Glass tosell more wine.
He was the first person tointroduce that.
I don't even know how manyyears ago.
Had to be quite a while, butone time he told me that story
(28:23):
we were just talking about,because wine, when you are going
to make an investment ofopening a bottle.
Either you drink it all byyourself or you better have some
people to share it with, andthat's now.
It's pretty hard to find.
Like you said, cassie, you goto the bar, everybody's drinking
something different.
So wine by the glass isexploding and that's building
(28:44):
that market and now it'sbecoming wine and RTDs.
I got lots of people I workwith that have canned wines and
things.
So again it's.
It is an individuality, anon-conformity and convenience
convenience in price.
You know, these are things wereally have to be talking about.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Makes me think of wine in a box.
It started as a collegephenomenon, at least for my age,
that people were only reallydrinking wine in a box, and the
whole selling point is basicallyyou're saving money because you
(29:35):
don't have to drink it allright away, because it'll last
longer.
I opened a bottle of wine lastnight.
I was sharing, we had twoglasses and then we realized we
didn't want any more.
We have a whole bottle left.
It's like oh, we're leaving forthe weekend, I guess we're out
of luck.
But if it's boxed wine, it's awhole other left.
It's like, oh, we're leavingfor the weekend, I guess we're
out of luck, but if it's boxedwine, it's a whole other
situation.
So that kind of comes into playtoo the convenience of it all.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
You know it's so funny when you think that, and I
mean I'm not starting anotherbrand, but I've yet to see line
in a box like a kid's juice boxwhere it's single serve.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Like a pre-sun.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
And you don't need to spend the money on aluminum for
a can.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Wine in a pouch.
That's a good idea.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Right, Because I mean , I think about all the little
kids.
They peel off the straw andstick it in.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Your sippy cup, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Instead of like a big wine in the box, I can take it
with me.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Listeners, stay tuned .
One year from now, we will havethat brand on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Maybe one of your clients, cassidy for MHW.
But yeah, these are really.
I love talking about thedemographics and the different
people and stuff because mybackground is in marketing and
business development, so I loveexploring and having these
conversations.
We'll have to talk about it aswell, but that's also the kind
(31:02):
of stuff that I talk a lot with.
Our brands in both Women of theVine and Spirits and in diverse
power brands is no pun intended,or I should say pun intended.
Think out of the box.
You got to differentiatebecause the competition is so
huge.
Growing up, we were maybe fivevodka brands were out there.
(31:27):
You know our liquor stores werelocal and small and family
owned and operated and just theamount of options and choices
out there, it's incredible.
So you really have to know whatdifferentiates yours and then
just lean into that and realizethat you know.
(31:50):
Just lean into that and realizethat you know if you're selling
a Mercedes, that's your targetaudience.
That's going to be verydifferent than selling a Toyota,
corolla or something else.
You know like you just stay inyour lane and being niche can
actually be very lucrativeversus trying to appeal to the
(32:13):
masses.
That's really hard.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Not to put Gen Z or any generation back in a box
here, but in terms of diversityand those brand values, do you
see people in the youngergenerations caring more about
brand story compared to theolder generations, or is that a
(32:37):
myth we've all been hearing?
Speaker 3 (32:41):
I think that, to your point, if we put them in one
bucket I don't want to puteverybody in one bucket there's
a lot of people that are verywell off, but a majority are
just entering the workforce andthey're not making a lot of
money and they're on their own.
So I think that price and tasteis, first and foremost, the
(33:03):
most important thing forcapturing that audience, because
they are limited in what theycan spend.
I can tell you I am even olderthan you guys, because I think
I'm considered Gen X, you know.
The thing is is that brandsthat were really popular back in
the day they didn't innovate,so things that my grandparents
(33:26):
drank, my parents drank, some ofthose brands don't exist.
And then you see brands thatare celebrating their 500th year
, like Disarono and other things.
So what makes that happen?
Some are cocktails, right, youhave some cocktails that were so
popular back in the day and nowthose are no longer even talked
(33:49):
about.
Now there's a resurgent of someof those retro cocktails coming
back into play.
So, but I still think brandstory is important, but the
other parts have to be therefirst, which is, you know, the
price and and the flavor and thetaste.
I will tell you.
Brand story is really importantwhen you mess up, because for
(34:13):
Gen Z, everything is at the tipof their fingers and so if you
mess up something that doesn'tresonate as part of your DNA,
then they're going to call youout on it immediately.
So I think your brand story andyour brand values is very
important so that you stay inyour lane.
(34:35):
Now again, not gettingpolitical but if your brand
values is to a very certainniche group and maybe I don't
agree with that, but there's awhole market that does then you
got to stay on point to that anddon't flip-flop, because your
(34:57):
loyal brand followers are goingto say what did you just do?
I don't even have to use theexample I think it's probably
already coming in your head of acouple of things that have
happened where somebodyflip-flopped and forgot what is
our brand value, but what's ourvalues of our consumer?
Make sure they're aligned.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
We've talked a lot about authenticity.
That's probably the biggestbuzzword of this podcast over
the last year and change thatwe've been doing it.
Can we talk about sort of thatauthenticity as it relates to, I
guess, the less public-facingside, so not necessarily in
advertising and marketing andall of those sort of consumer
(35:39):
communication channels, but morein?
I'm thinking in hiringpractices and things like that?
What are you seeing brands andother people in the space in
this industry do to try toattract talent that sort of
aligns with their principles andso forth?
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Absolutely.
I mean, again, it all comesdown to your brand values and
the company culture.
So you know you want to attractpeople that are going to share
your values, because they aregoing to be your biggest brand
ambassadors, you know, andthey're going to be the ones
that go out there and it doesn'tmatter what capacity they work
(36:18):
in, it doesn't matter if theywork in the warehouse, they work
on a forklift or they, you know, are doing admin work or
they're marketing, and that theystill want to have pride in the
company that they work with,and part of that pride is to be
able to enjoy the products thatthe company makes and to
introduce friends and family tothose products, right?
(36:40):
So you really want to make surethat you're hiring and that is,
that you talk about yourcompany's and your brand's
values and you should be askingvery specific questions during
the hiring process to get abetter understanding of their
values and to make sure it'sgoing to be a good fit.
(37:00):
One make sure it's a good fitbecause they're going to be
again representing your brand.
But also, we all have hadexperiences, I'm sure, in
listeners, where you hiresomebody that doesn't share in
that and it can upset the entireapple cart, as they say, one
bad apple.
It's like, all of a sudden, andagain, everybody can have
(37:23):
opinions and do things andbelieve in different things.
It's how the company culture isto make you feel like your
opinion matters regardless.
If we agree or disagree, it'sokay, but then I expect you to
be tolerant to other people inmy organization as well.
(37:45):
So I think it's it really andif your brand does really have,
you know, a forward facing, likeyou said, it's not, you know,
you really want to make surethat you look for that in your
hiring, because it could be acontradiction in, you know, in
their values.
Like I said, you know, if mybrand was built on the love of
(38:06):
animals, I may ask somepertinent questions about you
know, do you have any pets?
Did you grow up with any pets?
Did you?
You know, do you like to go tothe zoo?
I mean, you need to think abouthow you want your company, your
brand, to be represented andtolerance for different things.
You know, believe it or not,when I worked in that tech film,
(38:27):
I remember going into studioswhere all they did was make
these hunting videos, you know,and stuff.
They're very big on channelsand stuff of people watching it
and I knew that there's no way Icould work there, because I
wouldn't be able to edit and dothat stuff all day long.
(38:49):
I would cringe.
So it's, you know, it's likeeverything.
So share your values right upfront, because the person on the
other side of the table,they're not going to want to
work for you either Because,like I said, I don't want to sit
there and watch those videosall day long.
I certainly didn't want tomarket them and sell them.
(39:09):
So you know funny examples, butI don't want to.
I don't want to market them andsell them.
So you know funny examples, butI don't want to.
I don't want to call anybodyout particularly so but I think,
yeah, I think that's reallyimportant you know, I wanted to
ask beyond like making sure thatyour hiring practices are
representative of your values.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
How do you think, like amongst a brand's employees
, how best should they fosterinclusion and belonging?
What kind of things can they doto kind of make sure that that
company culture is upheld?
It could be something likebecoming a member of Woman of
the Vine and Spirits.
I just want to hear if you haveany other ideas for our
(39:51):
listeners, to kind of pick yourbrain here.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Well, I love you saying that, cassidy, because
that's one way that we reallytell people as part of building
that.
The other thing is, you have toreally listen as leaders.
You need to empower yourleaders to intervene and also to
help foster that sense.
(40:15):
So, for example, just givingexamples of what do I mean I'm
in a meeting I may be middlemanagement, I'm not in executive
management.
I'm in a meeting with some teammembers and somebody is saying
something that maybe sounds alittle derogatory, could be
something that's a little bitmakes people not feel inclusive,
(40:35):
maybe cutting them off, notwanting to hear what somebody
has to say, or being derogatorybecause of their position and
title.
As a leader.
It doesn't matter what positionyou're in.
It's your job as a companyculture to say wait, wait, wait.
I'd love to hear what Cassidyhas to say.
Hang on, jimmy.
I want to hear what Cassidy hasto say.
(40:57):
Cassidy, please, you know, orhang on a second, jimmy.
What were you talking about?
Or say to somebody like well,you know, we really don't talk
about certain groups like thathere.
It's not the way we want, youknow, to talk about people, and
I think that's where you empoweryour people.
Again, going back to Women ofthe Binding Spirits, of
(41:19):
empowering people.
The company should feel thatpeople are empowered to do that
and that's how you create andsustain a company culture that
you want in your.
Because we've all been incompanies I say we all I have in
my past where the companyculture was a bit toxic, and I
(41:40):
tried in the old days becausethis was very, very different.
When I entered the workforce inthe late 80s, early 90s,
showing my age, there wasn't.
First of all, I never evenheard of HR.
I didn't know what that evenmeant.
So I think that those types ofenvironments it's because the
company culture has thatenvironment.
(42:00):
And if you're going to develop acompany culture built on
competition and on cutthroat andwho wins and who loses, that's
exactly what you're going to getand if that's how you want to
build it, I mean it's yourcompany.
But that's not the company Iwanted to be in and so at the
end I ended up leaving mycorporate life because I
(42:23):
couldn't find the right fit backin those days.
But I was seeking it and Istill think today, and I think a
lot of people are realizingthat you know you've got to find
the right fit and then you willthrive as an employee.
You will get advancement andyou will enjoy what you're doing
.
And some people they love goinginto a cutthroat, competitive
(42:48):
environment and they gravitateto those particular cultures
because that's what they like todo.
I don't want to work there.
That's why we can't puteverybody in a box.
That's right.
We can't say that everybody'slike that.
I mean some people put on asuit and tie, go down to Wall
Street and cut each other'sthroats, stab people in the back
(43:08):
and they're having a ball.
And it's just not me.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
If I came to you as a new brand and say I don't say I
don't check any boxes for anykind of DEI, I'm just a regular
plain old white guy which I evenunderstand, like that framing
is probably problematic in someways.
But say I didn't evenunderstand that you know.
But say my heart is in theright place and for, not just
(43:37):
for purely capitalistic,greed-based reasons.
I do want to reach out to someof these communities that I
might not personally have a lotin common with with.
How might I foster those kindsof relationships in a way that
is authentic despite not beingauthentic to me as an individual
?
How might I start doing thatwork?
Speaker 3 (43:59):
I think it's a wonderful question, I mean with
Women of the Vine and Spirits.
You know, we have lots ofdifferent groups and affinity
groups.
We have people that sit in andthey join these conversations
for listening and learning andto understand.
That is the best way to do it,you know, is to get in these
conversations and really learnabout things that you just may
(44:22):
not have an understanding about.
It's a group that you, you know, don't necessarily, like you
said, feel like youauthentically belong.
I think those are absolutegreat ways.
I think for me, it's reallyimportant for people to listen
in and understand theperspective of other people, and
I also do like to say that whenI talk about inclusion and
(44:47):
equity and everything, I alwaysuse the example, jimmy, of like
the tip of the iceberg.
So what happens is, when yousee me, you know as human beings
, we make very fast judgments.
It's part of our fight orflight to keep us safe.
And you're looking at the colorof my skin and my and the color
of my hair, and you know this.
Am I five feet tall or am I,you know, six, two or what am I
(45:11):
wearing?
All these things that weimmediately make?
What you're not seeing is.
That's just the tip of theiceberg.
What you're not seeing iseverything below the water, and
what you're not seeing is wheredid I grow up?
Maybe I grew up reallyimpoverished.
Maybe I grew up without aneducation.
Maybe I had to go to workbecause my family was in peril.
Maybe I didn't get to do things.
(45:32):
Maybe I was very sick as achild.
Maybe I had other issues.
Maybe I'm neurodiverse.
Maybe I grew up in othersituations.
Those are the things that I wishpeople would understand.
That is diversity to me.
That's what diversity means tome.
It is not all the things thatis talked about.
(45:53):
It's the fact that, as humans,we all come to problem solving
and issues and things sodifferently because of what's
below the water, and so when youhire people of all those
different things, that's whereyour magic happens, because I
(46:13):
don't know certain things.
I didn't grow up in a fancycountry club.
I didn't grow up with verywealthy parents, so I only know
what I know.
I don't know what I don't know.
So I want to surround myselfwith people that grew up and has
things below the waterline andI want to bubble them up and
(46:36):
find their superpowers.
So that's how I like todescribe it.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
We're going to go to our fun final question here, and
that question is what is yourfavorite cocktail?
Now I listened back to youranswer in episode 11 when you
were first on, and your answerthere was the paper plane.
Is that still your answer orhave you changed?
Speaker 3 (46:59):
You know I know it sounds lame I don't have a
favorite.
It's what I'm in the mood forand what the setting is, and I
think I have a favorite based onmy mood and the setting.
So like it's July and I'moutside and I'm on an Aperol
spritz and it's so pretty and itlooks great and it's fun, or
(47:22):
I'm by a pool and I'm going tohave an RTD because I can't have
glass, or I'm in a fancycocktail place like Cassie and I
want the full-blown mixologything going on, and a lot of
times I'm also a very purist ofjust vodka and soda.
So that's kind of like, okay, Idon't want too many calories,
but I kind of want somethingrefreshing.
(47:44):
So, yeah, I think it reallydepends.
So if I have to answer now, Ijust say I'm outside and it's
really cool, and when I sip anAperol Spritz it brings me back
to fond memories of being at VinItaly and being in Verona and
stuff.
So, again, cocktails, it's liketime travel for me.
(48:05):
It kind of takes me back tosome of my happy places.
So that's why it depends onwhere I am.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
That's lovely and very poetic.
Love that answer.
Thank you so much as always forstopping by.
For listeners who want to checkout more, womenofthevinecom is
the website for Women of theVine and Spirits.
There's alsodiversepoweredbrandscom.
We'll put links to all of thatand more in the show notes so
(48:32):
that you can follow up.
Deborah Brenner, thank you forstopping by again.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
And thank you listeners for joining us on the
MHW Mark podcast and thanksagain to Cassidy Poe for joining
me and hosting.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
Thanks for having me again, Jimmy.
It was a fun time.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
This podcast is produced by me, Jimmy Moreland,
with booking and planningsupport by Cassidy Poe and
Bridget McCabe.
It's presented by MHW.
Find out more at mhwltdcom orconnect with MHW on LinkedIn.
Lend us a hand by subscribing,rating and reviewing this
podcast wherever you listen.
We'll be back in your feed intwo weeks.
We'll see you then.
Cheers, Bye.
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