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September 28, 2023 119 mins
You don’t need to do it all - take control and do less, live more, and breathe easier.
It is said that it is every woman’s nature to care for and nurture people, relationships, and everything they put their heart into. They have this characteristic in them that is natural and true to themselves - and it’s proven true for today’s podcast guest - Lisa Zawrotny.
From caring for a sick family member suffering from Alzheimer's while pregnant to both her kids all at the same time was a lot, but to Lisa, it changed her and allowed her to narrow down on what is truly important in life, bringing together everything she has now.
Our podcast guest is not only an inspiring speaker but a workshop facilitator and coach who shares with about 90+ podcasts and virtual guesting the powerful healing of simplifying, stress management, self-care, and systems that can lead you to a better life. She is also the founder of Positively Productive Systems, and host of the Positively Living Podcast, Lisa Zawrotny.
Know more about our podcast guest through https://positivelyproductive.com/ and check out her workbook on her website, too.
To learn more about myself, Michael Esposito, and find out about public speaking workshops, coaching, and keynote speaking options, and - of course - to be inspired, visit www.michaelespositoinc.com
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Episode Transcript

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(00:00):
This show is sponsored by den tenInsurance Services, helping businesses get the right
insurance for all their insurance needs.Visit den ten dot io to get a
quote d N t N dot ioand remember, when you buy an insurance
policy from dent ten, you're givingback on a global scale. Hello all,

(00:21):
my entrepreneurs and business leaders, andwelcome to the Michael Esposito Show,
where I interview titans of industry inorder to inform, educate, and inspire
you to be great. My guesttoday is an inspiring speaker, workshop facilitator,
and coach. She shares powerful healingand simplifying stress management, self care

(00:44):
and systems with multi passionate entrepreneurs whoare balancing business and family. She's been
featured as a keynote speaker, facilitatingboth in person and virtual workshops on topics
relating to productivity and stress. Shehas also been a guest on over ninety
podcasts and virtual summits. When she'snot sharing the wonders of simplicity, self

(01:10):
awareness and systems, you can findher playing music and watching movies with her
husband and kiddos, or drinking icecoffee and reading while trapped under her cat.
She is the founder of Positively ProductiveSystems, host of the Positively Living
podcast Predictivity and Accountability Coach. Pleasewelcome Lisa zat Rottney. I knew i'd

(01:40):
stumble on it. Those those lastnames they get me every time. I
will say that I'm a pretty goodpublic speaker and an interviewer, but last
names, they stumped me every time. I wasn't playing fair. What what
is Zerotney? Where does that hailfrom? Oh? It's Polish? Polish?

(02:02):
Okay, my uh, Actually,my wife, Devin is is part
Polish and Irish, but you ifyou saw her, you would only think
she's Irish with the freckles and thered hair. Well, I done again
was my baden name, So Icame from the Irish and married into the
Polish name. I was gonna say, you actually look very sim have very
similar features than her. You know. I want to just jump right into

(02:27):
your your story here, and youknow in your in your bio there we
speak so much about productivity and multipassionate and all these other things, and
we're gonna we're gonna unpack all ofthat. But I think you had an
aha moment which led you to thatroad. And I'm speaking about mom and
your journey there as a caregiver,and if if you can share a little

(02:51):
bit about that with with our audiencehere and what that that life was like
and how it led to you towhere you are today. Yeah, I
would be honored to. And it'sa really interesting thing for me because every
time I go to tell the story, it's a challenge because I still feel
the weight of that time and Iwas a caregiver for my mom. I

(03:12):
call it my origin story now becauseyou know, my kids and I watch
a lot of Marvel movies and it'sone of those things where you can look
back on something that was so difficultand go, Wow, what a set
of life lessons and what can Ido with it? So when I was
pregnant with my son, I movedmy mom in to our home. She
had Alzheimer's. It was mild atthe time, there was cognitive decline.

(03:37):
We weren't sure what was going on, and I cared for her for nearly
five years. During this time,I had my son and then I was
pregnant. So I've had two children, and so that's two pregnancy is two
children, and at one point intime, caring for her and an infant
and a toddler all at the sametime. While my husband was working full

(03:58):
time, we were running a business, and I don't know, I was
probably freelancing too. And my goodness, survival mode is like an understatement.
So if you're listening right now andyou're in survival modor if you've been in
it, my heart to yours,I understand what that means. It means
that you pretty much jettison everything fromyour life that's a non essential and sometimes

(04:25):
the essential things too. And forme, that was me a lot of
the times. And we got throughit, and I served my family the
best I possibly could. I gavethem every opportunity. And when my mom
passed away, I had a choice. I was at a crossroads to say,

(04:46):
Okay, what's next? And Iremember distinctly saying what do I do?
And I think that probably would soundfamiliar to most. Our instincts are
always to do something. What doI have to do? What do I
have to add? I have aproblem, I have a challenge, you
know what do I do? Andthere was a voice inside me that said,
oh whoa wait a minute, we'vejust been through a lot. Wait

(05:11):
stop, take a breath, Takea moment and clear a path. There's
a lot that hasn't been tended toin a long time. Take care of
that, and I'm so grateful Idid, because that voice led me to
where I am today. Many stepsin between, mind you, but the

(05:32):
first step that it did was literallyto clear a path physically, because we
had, you know, unopened paperworkand you know, all kind of bins
of things, and of course therewas toys, and there was so much
that needed to be processed, butalso what needed to be processed was what

(05:53):
I'd just gone through, which youknow, it took me a long time
to say that that was trauma andthat that counts too. You know,
so often we want to say,oh, no, someone who went through
something extreme, you know, catastrophic, that's trauma. Well this is trauma
too. The other thing grief,And when you have someone who has cognitive

(06:15):
decline, that's a very complex grief. It's not only losing someone from a
sickness, it's losing them before you'veeven lost them, and then losing them.
And it's almost like I had areverse grieving process where I felt relieved
afterwards, and then I felt guiltyfor feeling relieved and it was so many

(06:39):
things and I needed to go throughthat. I needed to deal with it.
I needed to research it, Ineeded to take care of me.
And when I did, it wasessentially what I called now decluttering, you
know, my whole life inside andout. I Oh, my goodness.

(07:00):
The healing was so incredible that Ithought, Okay, I'm onto something.
I'm onto something I need to Ineed to start sharing this the most obvious
way to share that. The onething that I think everybody can universally understand
is decluttering, right, having clutterin your life and sorting through that.

(07:24):
And so I began as a professionalorganizer and started started the path to decluttering
people's lives that I still do today, but it's many iterations later. I
can empathize with you on so manylevels here in so many different ways,
and they certainly are in terms oflike finding clarity in our life and what

(07:46):
are the next steps? That thatquestion of what's next? What do I
do now? And that comes upwhen you get fired from a job,
which I've been in those shoes,when you decide you're going to leave a
job. I've been in those shoes, when you decide you're going to start
a new company. I've been inthose shoes, and we're going to speak
about that. But I want tostay with your mom for a second here,

(08:09):
because you related this experience to trauma, and that trauma is different for
everyone, and I think that that'sso important for our audience to hear because
so many of us go through throughlife and it's hard to relate some of
our pain, some of our trauma, some of our disabilities with others because

(08:33):
we think, you know, uh, it's not that big of a deal.
We don't realize, you know.I speak on both sides of this,
by the way, because we sometimesallow these traumas or these disabilities or
whatever they are, to hold usback. But sometimes we also on today's
conversation is about acknowledging those acknowledging themand what you said the healing process,

(08:54):
so acknowledging it's a trauma. Andso here's how I empathize with you on
this is I actually my grandmother alsohad Alzheimer's and dementia. And my mother,
who I can't wait to connect youwith because you guys are going to
have such a wonderful conversation, mymother was the caregiver. She's one of
four children. We were fortunate.To take a step back. I know

(09:18):
all of this. We were fortunate, and that my grandmother lived with us
throughout my childhood. I don't remembera time that my grandmother didn't live with
me. I knew it as asa baby, and I know that she
lived with my parents prior to usbeing born because my grandfather had passed away
and so she moved in and itwas just the situation. We don't need

(09:39):
to get there, go there.But the point that I'm getting at here
is my grandmother and I were veryclose to the point where I named my
oldest daughter, Denise after her,and we had we have the same birthday,
January twelfth. We share that incommon as well, and I was
her petit pu say. We spokeFrench at home, and that means her
little chick, so she always calledme that. So this, when you

(10:00):
said this is heavy, I wasready with tissues because I know that I'm
going to have some tears today withyou, which already kind of just started
right there. But where I'm goingwith this goes into the caregiver mode.
So watching that decline, So asa young boy, I'm going into my
teen years and I'm with my grandmotherall the time because she had a license

(10:20):
and I had my permit, andin New York City, she could sit
passenger while I drove all of myfriends around. And I made her the
promise to her that if you sitpassenger with me while I have my permit,
once I get my license, I'lldrive you anywhere you want. I'll
bring you anywhere you want. SoI could drop her off and pick her
up whenever she wanted. And Ikept to that promise, I'm proud to
say. But I spent a lotof time with her, and I started

(10:43):
realizing that she would forget things,she would get angry, Right, do
you remember that with your mom?She would get angry, she would have
a disposition on things that she justnever had when I was a child,
Like she was just loving, patient, just stoic woman, and all of
a sudden she was acting irrational andangry and physically upset, Like she physically

(11:07):
pushed my brother down a flight ofstairs because she thought he was a robber,
a thief. And you know,she did all these things, and
so it impacted us as a familybecause at the time we didn't know what
she was experiencing. We didn't understandthe disease, and so we experienced it
as a family before even understanding whatwas happening. And we were getting upset

(11:30):
with her and frustrated with her andimpatient with her. And you go to
the clutter. And I'm going topass this back on to you in a
second. Is the amount of clutter, the amount of things that she started
saving and hoarding. And I'm gonnaleave this on a light note here in
that when she did pass, whenshe did finally pass, which like you
said, was like it was likeI remember, I remember saying to my

(11:54):
mother, I said, you know, wouldn't it see I told you we're
gonna do this to me? Isaid, wouldn't wouldn't it be nice if
we can just give do Do?That's what we name, that's what her
nickname was, Do Do. Ifwe can give her a pill and she
can just go to sleep and shedoesn't have to feel the pain anymore.

(12:18):
That you talk about the healing andthe pain that we go through, right
that we're thinking about a loved oneand we want them to pass just so
that it could be over for them. Yeah, you know that That's what
was the conversations that we were havingsometimes, so it was it was really
really hard. But back to thislight note. When she did pass I
remember cleaning out her bedroom at mysister and we would see these boxes and

(12:41):
they all said t Sue, tSu and Tsue and French is is is
actually cloth? Is actually fabric fabricnot tissue but fabric, and it said
D Sue and everything. And wejust kept opening up box as a fabric
and fabric and I was just liket Su t Su, and it's like
she was just like hoarding fabric andboxes in her bedroom. It was wild,

(13:01):
so there was some fun to it. But you know, I go
back to the to two things here, and that of the the caregiver and
the trauma that my mother experienced hersiblings as well, when they would of
course host their mom. My littlebrother speaks about it, So the trauma
there. I don't want us tojust pass over that so quickly and then

(13:24):
move into the decluttering, which iswhy I bring up the tissue story,
and that when you're caring for someone, clutter builds up. It builds up
on their end, and it buildsup on our end. And it's so
important to declutter because that was partof the healing process for my sister and
I and our family. So justto go back to and jump in right

(13:45):
there, go ahead. Yeah,So with with clutter, many reasons why
people don't declutter is because it's notsimply things. It's a connection to the
head and heart. And I madethat connect early on, and I'm sure
it was in part because of thisexperience with my mom. And I know
what you mean about the complexities.I had two little ones and I had

(14:09):
my mother there with us, andthe norm the expectation is you have your
mother there and she's with her grandchildren. She was there on me this it
was a German German nickname for her, and I knew intrinsically that she loved
them, and she'd always been avery caring, nurturing mother. But she

(14:31):
would she would sundown. That's athat's a term you know at night where
nighttime gets very active for them andthey get anxious and instead of sleeping,
they're they're doing things, cording,searching through things, squirreling things away.
You have to figure and this isonly my speculation. Uh not a doctor,

(14:54):
don't play one on TV. Butbut I've I've been through a lot
of it, and then you startwith a mind that's functioning and it starts
to slip away. It has tobe a very scary thing. So everything
that they do is a search forcontrol and to say face. And I
would not be surprised if there wasa violent or angry reaction because of that

(15:18):
frustration. So did I react wellto that all the time? Oh?
No, No, I did thesame thing. I was very frustrated.
I didn't know what was going on. I had to learn so much on
the fly. But the biggest thingfor me in terms of the trauma that
I had to accept later was Ihad a mother in my home and I
feared for the safety of my children. That's a lot to unpack, and

(15:43):
you know, I just did whatI had to do in that moment.
But yes, to your point withtrauma, and we don't have to say
this in a way where it's likeso heavy, because the truth is we
all experience it. But I thinkwhen we start to understand that we don't
compare. We don't compare trauma orjoy for that matter. It is hours

(16:03):
and hours alone grief. There's notimeline for grief. There's there's no rule
book. You know, the closestone is on grief and grieving. Elizabeth
Coopler Ross did a phenomenal job tryingto help us through the patterns and the
stages. But you get to choosewhat order you do it in and if
you're going to do each of those, and how long it lasts. It's

(16:26):
all up to you. And forme, it took me a while to
get in gear. But you're absolutelyright. The decluttering is actually a critically
important part of that healing process becauseit essentially makes you face those moments,
those memories, those thoughts, thethings that we have in our lives have

(16:48):
meaning because we give them meaning.And you know, alzheimer is a very
common disease. We live here inHudson Valley and on the Walkway bridge close
by here, there's there's a walkfor Alzheimer's and UH, and there's hundreds
of people show up. So thisisn't unique to you or I. And
I love the fact of what youjust said that there's no comparing, there's

(17:11):
no comparing UH, trauma or joy. And I'm with you on that because
you know, we see it froma public speaking standpoint, right. You're
a speaker, I'm a speaker.And people say, oh, you did
so good. I wish I couldspeak like that. It's like no,
no, I speak like me,and you speak like you and you do
good too, right, just tokind of bring it there. But reason
why I bring up the number ofpeople that deal with a disease like this,

(17:34):
and there's so many others out there, and what we can relate are
some of the skills and tools thatwe need when living with or or responding
to someone that we care about,or that we love, or that we
just know who is dealing with somethinglike Alzheimer's. And so I'll start us
off just to kind of see soyou can see where I'm where I'm headed
with this in terms of the toolsthat we might need as patients, is

(17:59):
if you're able to just try tobe as patient as possible in the moment
with that person and with yourself,to give yourself some grace and to be
patient about what's happening the surroundings themoment because they are acting irrational or whatever
it is. If you can justleave some space for them, a lot

(18:23):
of times they might come back toreality with you. A lot of times
they might just teeter out or theenergy will drop and then you can get
back to what it is that youwere doing. So I'll start off with
patience is so important while while workingor living with somebody like this, Yeah,
that you know and the patience partof it. Keep in mind every

(18:45):
one of these tools is not onlya tool that you offer for the person,
but you offer for yourself, right, So patience with yourself and saying
I'm in an impossible situation where I'mtrying to apply logic to someone who isn't
as able to do so anymore ormay say something because that is their reality.

(19:06):
So seeking to understand It's not thatwe can necessarily understand the disease,
but we can understand that the diseasechanges the person that's in front of us.
I pretty much loathe that. Don'ttake it personally phrase that people love
to bandy about, because it's like, this is personal, but there is

(19:29):
a separation. You talked about space. There's a lot of different ways we
can create space. And when wecan consistently say there's a disease happening here
that takes them from being the personI knew and loved and takes them away
from reacting to me the way thatthey would necessarily want to. If you
can create that reminder loop going,it can help you step back from the

(19:56):
reactive mode of wondering why they're doingthis or you know, because it's that
natural inclination of something just happened,they love me anymore? Or why would
they do that? Or and there'sa lot of questions, and we don't
have the satisfaction of many of theanswers. But if we can say there's
another component here that we don't knowabout that is affecting things, we can

(20:21):
at least say, Okay, that'saffecting things. This is not the norm.
How do I step back from thisend and then take that breath,
take that breather, And then ofcourse I would say, and this is
a tool that I've loved with anyonewho is interacting with me in a way
that may not be working for me. And this could be toddlers as well.

(20:47):
So it's a little humor in here, but it really does work.
It's called the art of redirect.And so when you're like, Okay,
this is not working, We're noton the same page. Something is going
on here. I don't even knowwhat. You don't have to worry about
why or what and you could belike, whoa, did you see that
sunrise? That's incredible? Or youknow, my favorite color has always been

(21:11):
blue, but then it became green, and it's like it's random, like
non sequiturs and things like that.It's it's, you know, using the
bright shining object intentionally for a goodreason and sometimes too to your point that
could actually bring them back. Ilove the art of redirect because it does

(21:33):
work with the kids so wonderfully.You know, it's it's like I know
that I won't even go there withwith the other side of the argument,
but I love it because when youredirect or redirect into something positive, so
you're you're reinforcing some positivity in theconversation, which is wonderful because you're going
to go down a positive route noweven if it was negative before. And
it does work with the Alzheimer withthe person suffering from some kind of Alzheimer,

(21:57):
because they're really living in this momentand if you just redirect them,
they're going to be in that momentwith you much of the time. It's
funny because as you are you arekind of formulating the art of redirect.
As you are formulating that part ofthe tools. I was thinking about how
a lot of what we're talking abouttoo can be applied in the corporate world,

(22:18):
in the entrepreneurial world, in anyany excuse me, community that you're
in, because these tools are arereally tools effective tools to use with other
people, of being patient with somebody, of seeking to understand, of even
redirecting if there's something happening in yourenvironment that is uncomfortable for you, or

(22:42):
that is is you're not prepared forright now. It's redirecting, which can
really work to an advantage. Ofcourse, we could see the disadvantages to
that sometimes, but in terms ofthis conversation, context of this conversation,
it can certainly apply in all thoseformats. In fairness, sometimes there's a
conversation that needs to be had andyou need to stay there. But we're

(23:04):
talking about let's say you're brainstorming withsomeone, So in a corporate or entrepreneurial
environment, you're working on some stuffand they're coming at it from one angle,
you're from the other, and you'relike, okay, we're not driving
here. Let's move on to thisthing first. Let's let's talk about this
first. We'll we'll put a pinin that, right come back to that.
So that's an art of redirect.It's not necessarily that it has to

(23:26):
be manipulative, but it is understandingthat maybe your wheels are spinning in a
particular space and you want to takea moment because otherwise you're you're really not
getting anywhere, and the only thingyou are getting is maybe more frustrated.
And we all know that once thathappens, you lose focus. You you're

(23:48):
no longer productive. So I'm alwaystying it back to productivity somehow, and
but then yeah, you're you're notYou're not getting there at the right ROI
you know, so why not takea moment, set that to the side,
move on to the next thing.And so that's a great redirect.
Yeah, And on that note too, in that we we need this and

(24:10):
we're going to talk about it interms of your mom there, but also
in the business life. In thebusiness world it certainly relates to it is
a support system. So you know, having a strong support system around you
in anything you do in life,mentors people that have experienced something like this
and having conversations with them. Sowhere where I'm going with this question has

(24:33):
to do with self development and youbrought up Renee Brown in some of the
books that you've read and people thatyou follow, and she's she's tremendous speaking
about vulnerability and speaking about so manyother things. I'm interested in, what
was your support system when you weregoing through this time? So it was
a combination of support systems, andI think that's incredibly important. And I'll

(24:59):
tie it into you know, businesslife as well. In that, of
course, I had my immediate familyand they understood things in it in a
different way, especially my husband.So I have to give him a shout
out because man, he went througha lot with me. And then I
had some of those close girlfriends whojust got it. These were the ones

(25:21):
that to this day, and there'sthere's a chance they'll they'll hear this because
they do live in the Hudson Valley, but Maryon and Rashad Man, they
were. They were the ones whounderstood that. It was like, Hey,
can I pick up your kid fromdaycare today? Or can I just
run a gallon of milk to yourhouse? Or you know, did those
those would feel like little things maybeat first, or they seem like little

(25:45):
things, but they don't feel likelittle things. I think the better way
to describe it. So those werethe people who are like, what can
I do for you? They werekind of my acts of service people.
But then very importantly, I connectedwith the Office for the Aging and the
Alzheimer's Association and went to caregiver supportgroups. And those are the people.

(26:07):
And I think of it this waywhen we have business networks. Now,
of the people who really get you, because like, for example, my
family, they love and support me. They are very excited. You know,
I recently celebrated over twenty thousand downloadsfrom my podcasting Thank You, and
my kid always like, remember whenit was one thousand, and we were
excited. I'm like, yeah,that's awesome. So they're they're rooting me

(26:32):
on, but they don't always getwhat entrepreneur entrepreneur life is about. And
so it's very important for me tohave people in my network who get that,
who live it every day, justlike you just did. You cheered,
cheered me on because you know whatan incredible milestone that is and what
it takes to get there. Youget me. So back to the caregiver

(26:55):
support groups, these were people whowere going through what I was going through
out Mine was an unusual Sandwich caregiversituation, and I never found an exact
match, but at the very leastwe understood, here's someone we love and
they're no longer the same person,and yet we have to step up our

(27:15):
love for them in terms of ourcaring and what that means and how that
works. It brought so much perspectiveand I'll never forget Stuart Grief connected through
the Hudson Valley Alzhemer's Association. Heran that caregiver support group and he said,
you know, do you want tobe right or do you want to

(27:37):
be sane? And that was themantra I took forever with me. I
mean that applies to my entire life. You know, do you want to
argue the point in that moment andbe right or do you want to let
it go and be content? AndI was like, yeah, I'm taking
that one with me, thank you. So yeah. It was ay of

(28:00):
support systems for different aspects of mylife, different understanding of my life,
and I wouldn't be here without them. M Yeah, I love that.
Do you want to be right ordo you want to be saying? I
experienced that with my daughters. SometimesI'm like, all right, Michael,
this isn't this isn't the one righthere? Let it let it go like
like right, like it frozen.I love that song, let it go.

(28:25):
Now I understand that song more andmore as I, you know,
become more of a parent, Iguess, or a more experienced as a
parent as I as I gain moreexperience as a parent, you know.
So you know, in these inthese times, these hard times where we
are dealing with clutter. Right,it's such a great tangible way of actually
speaking about the clutter in our mindtoo. Right. You know, you're

(28:48):
in this fog right where you're you'retaking care of this person. But eventually
you have to find peace and youhave to find clarity. And so I'm
interested in when the time came whereshe passed and now you had this aha
moment, you know, after youwere struggling with the questions of what to
do. What was it like clearingthe clutter? Both, like I said,

(29:11):
from a tangible perspective and also froma mental perspective. It's interesting to
answer this question having now been someonewho's helped so many people over the years
do this very thing, because Inow have their experiences that I carry with

(29:33):
me. And I have like aretrospective kind of understanding of what was happening
to me at the time. Sofor starters, clearing the physical clutter,
well, it felt satisfying. Andnow I understand why, because you're literally
creating space for yourself. You're notwalking around boxes, and you're also not

(29:53):
walking around the reminders. And that'swhat clutter is. It's why it's so
connected to stress. It's why youare so frustrated around it, even if
you know you know logically that hasto be there or you can't get to
it yet or whatever, is becauseit's a reminder of tasks you're not doing,

(30:15):
of things you didn't get to,of memories, it's a there's sentimental,
there's task related. I mean,clutter can tap into so many different
things that our brains will quickly turninto something that's a problem, you know
what I mean, Like that thatguilt and that shame. So the more
that I could release those things andthe more that I had space and I

(30:40):
could see it felt like it feltlike progress. So it was encouraging.
But and I did study a lotto figure out how to approach this,
and some of it was intuitive onmy part. I always been a person
inclined toward organizing, so it camevery naturally to me. But for example,
I was able to quickly go throughthe majority of her clothing and donate

(31:04):
that. And I've always had this. It's like a feeling of if I
can make use of this thing,if I can let it go and make
use of it, and a lotof people feel that way. So that's
a great tip. If you canfind someone else to bless an item with,
it makes releasing it on your endso much easier. And that's what

(31:26):
I did. I was like,there are plenty of places here for me
to donate where people could use theexcess that we have this closet full of
clothing that she wasn't even wearing forthe longest time. Now we can bless
and release, right, And Idid that for the majority of it.
But there were some special pieces rightthat had certain meaning that I had to

(31:48):
set to the side because I'm notready for that yet, and intuitively I
knew that. So that's another declutteringtip, especially for sentimental items, is
there are many things that are sortof more practical, less sentimental. Go
for those first, practice and buildthat muscle of finding the things where you're
like, this is taking up spacethat I need in my life for something

(32:12):
else. To make space for somethingelse, go ahead and release that the
stuff that you're like, wait aminute, that's really difficult. You keep
that, You keep that indefinitely ifyou have to. So so that was
the experience that I had and thatI continue to help so many people with,
is that sometimes there are certain thingswhere you're like, I can't let

(32:35):
go of that jacket, then don't. Yeah, it's funny because I wrote
down I always take notes while whileyou're speaking, and I wrote down memories
because I was thinking, all right, I'm like, she's she's going to
go through her decluttering things things,but how's she going to get rid of
the memories? Right? And I'mreally happy that you said that, you
know you hold on you keep someof those. I think that there are

(32:58):
some that you probably we'll keep withyou for forever, hopefully. But the
tip of donating it's so it's itworks. Wonders is like, I'm with
you on that, and that ifyou can give it away and you know
somebody else can make use of it, it's going to be so much easier
to give it away and to givethe other one that I remember hearing a

(33:20):
long time ago. I believe itwas Bob Proctor. I don't know you
are you familiar with Bob proctors work. I think it was Bob Procter.
He was one of the first,you know, thought leaders motivators him Tony
Robbins, he was. He wasone of the first that I had found
online to to start following. AndI remember him talking about how he didn't
talk about it in terms of decluttering, but but getting rid of stuff in

(33:42):
order to make room for the thingsyou want. Yes, that's the make
space for what matters part that Ispeak to all the time. So in
a few instances, okay, let'ssay, for example, you've got actual
physical space where you're like, okay, we want to make this room into
you know, so that we canhave family game night and movie night,

(34:04):
but we have these things that aretaking up space. And then it changes
the perspective. It's like, okay, those are things that we loved,
we purchased, you know, wecan get into the sunk cost fallacy right
where we're like, I've paid forthis, I want to keep it.
I want to get value out ofit. But then when you start to
look at it like, oh,but here's what I value more having space

(34:24):
in this living room. Let's sayto do these things with the family.
Now it becomes a lot easier tosay, Okay, well, then let's
see if someone else can take thisfor their home and make good use of
it, because now we're changing whatwe're doing. Another way is selling items.
I tend to proceed with caution,encourage with caution only because we don't

(34:51):
want to get into again the termsunk cost fallacy, where you've put in
money, you know, time effortinto something such that you get locked into
it and you don't want to releaseit for the sake of something else,
and that it actually it's a trap. So you want to be careful of
that, right, So the sellingof items, you could one of my

(35:16):
favorite recommendations is actually, if youthink something is a value and you would
like to generate money, you know, let's say the family wants to you
want to raise money so that youcan get you know, a piece of
furniture that's going to work for theplan that you have for the space.
Great, that's a great idea,but at some point, as you are
decluttering and creating that space, youhave to give yourself deadlines and limits.

(35:38):
You'd be like, Okay, I'llput it on Facebook marketplace for one month
and if it doesn't sell, andyou have to do it aggressively, and
if it doesn't sell, then thenit's donated. So you kind of have
a plan of attack that way.But it's a great idea to try that
again with the caveat if you havethe time and the energy to do so,

(35:58):
depending upon your life, and thenthat can be a way to subsidize
your new space, your new plans, your new uh you know time.
I'm so happy that you cautioned withthat because so many people they think with
Facebook marketplace and garage sales and allthe rest, that you know what,
I'm going to declutter by selling everythingand and and you're right, I believe

(36:22):
it to be a trap as well. And I've gone through that experience of
It's funny. I started laughing whenyou were talking about it, because it's
like, you know that person becausethey're the person on Facebook marketplace, on
whichever marketplace right online and uh,and at the garage sale, who's who's
trying to sell their items at costs? Right They're they're trying to right,

(36:44):
right, and I've done that.I'm not gonna lie. I thought I
was the best salesman in the world, and I was like, I'm going
to do that. What I whatI learned is that's not why we're doing
the garage sale. We're doing itto get rid of it and maybe get
a couple dollars, right, Andso I I learned that, and yeah,
so if if, if you wantto do it that way, great,
And what I want to add tothat is, hey, look,

(37:04):
if if you want to turn itinto your business and be an entrepreneur and
turn decluttering and selling those items onlineas a business, that is a decision.
And I love that you brought upthe word choice a while back in
this conversation. It's a choice thatthat you're making, right, You're making
the choice. And I want touse that word again, caution, and
that when we're when we're making achoice to start up essentially a business,

(37:30):
it's not like touch your dip yourtoes in or not. It's you know,
it's not like you can't play bothsides. You can't think that you're
going to declutter your home and beyou know, you got to pick one,
and you got to figure out becausethe people who are operators on your
marketplaces online and who are really goodgarage salespeople, they are organized, They

(37:52):
are organized and they have a placefor everything and they have they run it
like a business. So just besure at you know you're making the right
choice for yourself as you do that. I want to ask you the question
now about the choice that you madein moving into this space of decluttering.

(38:13):
So we understand kind of the backstorynow of that. You know, it
came from this clutter that was aroundyou and starting to do it, but
then you started moving into helping otherswith it. And and also I'm going
to just advance this conversation a littlebit in that of becoming a public speaker,
becoming a podcaster and doing more.So this this common thread for you

(38:35):
of helping others obviously comes from thecaregiver mentality, but I'm interested in how
you turned that into a business andthe meaning behind it for you. So
the experience of it and the powerfulhealing, and that's the way that I
describe it is that it was healing. It wasn't just healing for me,
it was healing for my family aswell. We had more space to move

(38:59):
more, used to breathe space,to be together and do the things we
wanted to do. And let usnot forget the energy that I came with,
which was a healing energy. Right. And I don't even say that
in the woo woo kind of way. I'm I'm all about the science.
But what I mean is when youare less stressed, less frustrated, when
you're happier, when you're content,you bring a different energy to everything you

(39:25):
do. And my family could feelthat, and I was like, this
is amazing. This can happen fromdecluttering a closet. Really feel like,
now, yes, there's more toit than that, right, I think
there's some science behind it. Ifelt darn good after decluttering something. Let
me tell you there is science behindit, and it is. It's though.

(39:46):
It's what clutter represents, right,all of those you know, undone
tasks and all of the shame andthe guilt and the it's and clutter is
deferred decisions in many cases. Andthat's because you know, decision making.
We have decision fatigue in this life. Because here's the thing. You use
up all that energy. You goto the store and you see like fifty

(40:08):
types of cereal and you're trying todecide and like, go, okay,
what's decision fatigue. I'm tapped out. I'm not definitely not going to tackle
what's in the back of that closetthat I haven't seen since I don't know
eighty two, So, you know, I mean, there's this a challenge.
I could say another year or twoexactly let it ride, right.

(40:30):
So I was like, here's thething with that whole What do I do
and how do I bring back youknow, what I can to the family?
Support us financially because caregiving is notonly traumatic to you emotionally and potentially
physically, but it can be financiallyas well. Even though we did everything

(40:52):
we could, it was still hardon us financially. So I wanted to
give back. I've been an entrepreneurat heart forever. My parents for entrepreneurs,
so it's always been ingrained in me. I was doing freelance work as
it was. I've done a lotof different work over the years, So
I thought, Okay, I'm ontosomething. This is powerful and amazing.

(41:12):
What do I need to do tostep forward? So I actually joined the
National Association was actually professional organizers originally, and they have expanded to now be
the National Association of Productivity and OrganizingProfessionals. But I joined NAPO right away
and I was like, what isthis thing? People do this for a
living. They go in and theyorganize and help people release clutter and stress.

(41:35):
This is incredible. It's a thing. I've found my people. And
the way that I started was byhaving conversations and I would meet for coffee.
I would I was decluttering myself,so I would donate things. I
would check in with friends and Ihad a cup of coffee with friend and

(41:57):
said this is what I'm doing andthis is the impact it's had. She
said, I want to do thattoo. Would you help me? And
I said you bet, I will. Wow. You said you're you said
your parents were entrepreneurs as well.Yes, so what did they do.
They had a small engine. Itwas parts in repair shop, so you

(42:19):
know, mowers and chainsaws and andthings like that. So I was in
the in the country in Upstate NewYork, and it was it was an
unusual business, but I worked therefrom from the moment they could I don't
want to say anything. Well they'regone now. So if I said,
if I said, they handed mesome cash, and they're like, you're
working for us. You know,nobody's coming after them now, right?

(42:44):
Uh yeah, So I mean Iworked I worked for them for a long
time. And actually they were alsoin real estate as well, that was
prior to that. So they alwaysfound a way to create something for themselves
and have that kind of control.And I grew up in that atmosphere,
so it definitely inspired me. Yeah, speak a little bit about that inspiration,

(43:06):
because you know, it's it's noteverybody who is able to come out
of an experience like you came outof in terms of taking care of your
mother and start decluttering and saying youknow what, yeah, I'm gonna help
you, and having the backdrop oftheir mind you know, this is also
going to be a business for me. So speak a little bit about that
inspiration that came from working with themand being with them on that entrepreneurial level.

(43:29):
Well, I think, like withanything else in life, when you
are able to see what's possible,especially see up close and personal what's possible,
that lands in your brain like,oh, that could be an option.
I know many people who who've grownup. Actually is a great example
with my husband, his parents wereboth teachers, and it was a very

(43:52):
traditional, wonderful, honorable job.So they went to work, they had
their hours, they had their breaks, they had their retirement. It was
very structured and very traditional. AndI don't know, I mean, this
is sort of a you know,correlation causation thing, so we want to
be careful with that. But he'svery much aligned with being an employee.

(44:15):
Now, we did have a businesstogether, but it really thrived when I
stepped in and started like organizing thingsand taking care of that aspect. He's
an incredible creative photographer and we actuallydid wedding photography for many, many years
in the Hudson Valley and it wasvery successful, but as a combination of

(44:37):
the two of us. But hispersonal inclination is to be employed, and
I think my personal inclination has alwaysnot to be because I like the creative
control. And I think I foundout later, you know, the way
that I could describe myself as multipassionate, creative, and I know that's

(44:57):
in the description of what I doand it's who I serve. And I
think it's those of us who werelike I didn't stay at a job for
more than two years and the restof society is like, you're flighty,
You're not loyal. What's wrong withyou? And it's like, whoa,
whoa, whoa, whoa, nothing'swrong with me. It's a need to
create and to research and to scanand to move and to change and to

(45:22):
I guess a mass a different kindof knowledge and different experiences in the world.
So all that to say, Iknew it was possible. I did
and go through the corporate world.I was gainfully employed. I was a
communications manager. I worked in Markhamfor a variety of companies, and I

(45:44):
appreciate those experiences. But I've neverbeen more me than when I can be
an entrepreneur and I can be callingthe shots. Another thing I can so
relate to with you. And youknow, it's funny because you brought up
the multi passionate because I was veryinterested. I underlined that word like ten

(46:05):
times in your bio. I waslike, we got to talk about that.
I need to understand what that is. And as you started unpacking it,
I'm like, Oh, that's me, that's me. So I'm starting
to understand a little bit more aboutwhat you mean when you speak about multi
passionate. And I would actually loveto just kind of stay here for a
second with you about digging in alittle bit more in that, because you

(46:30):
also say that you work with multipassionate entrepreneurs, So what does that work
look like and how do you helpthem realize that it's okay to be a
creative Okay, So let's start withthe concept of multi passionate and define it
in as much as we're able to. So there's multi passionate. There's also
multi potentially. That was a phraseby Emily Optic, and she has a

(46:52):
ted talk on why some of usdon't have one true calling. So you
definitely want to look that up.I can send you that link. That
was definitely an AHA moment for me. So her website is putty like and
yeah, so she talks about thatand she refers to it as multi potential
like, which is fun. Thenthere's also let's see scanners slash careers,

(47:15):
serial entrepreneurs and one of my personalfavorites. This goes way back Polly Math,
and that is what we referred towhen we spoke of Da Vinci.
When you think about this man wasa military strategist, He painted the Mona
Lisa, he was a sculptor,He created some of the first like concepts

(47:37):
of and invented some of the firstconcepts of like aircraft basically the glider,
right, things like that wings.I can't even remember most of the stuff
that he's done. And I jokinglyhave said in my podcast a number of
times I've brought him up and Iwas like, and I think he did
it unapologetically. I don't think hewas walking around like sorry, I'm doing

(47:57):
this now changed my mind, likeno, just he created. It's like,
oh wait, I know, Iknow I was doing the inventing things
and now I'm painting this gal becauseI don't know. It's like my mom's
friends. It's like, no,can I tell you? Oh my goodness,
I'm so happy. I'm laughing togear because like, I'm so happy
you said that because people say thatto me, and I'm sure you got

(48:19):
it too. I know you gotit too. Where it's like, so,
what are you doing now? Whatare you doing? Are you doing
these podcasts? You're doing these videos? How are they related to this?
And I'm like and I and Iand I think what I struggle with and
maybe what you can help me withthat after this this podcast today or help
others with is I struggle with tryingto connect it to right, So I
force the connection with them when meanwhilethere was no connection. It was Michael

(48:45):
just wanted to start a podcast.I didn't you know it, Michael was
the connection. Okay, So withall of these, you know this kind
this tendency, So these are thatthe You might be a multi passionate if
hey, I really need to dolike a post or podcast about that,
right, I do have a podcastabout how to know if you are one,

(49:07):
so that would be helpful. Butso let's talk about like if someone
says, hey, so what doyou do or what do you do for
a living? And if your firstinclination is to be like how much time
do you have? Yeah, youmight be a multi multi passionate if you
are, yeah, doing a lotof different projects and sometimes you're like,
how do they connect? Are theysupposed to connect? People want them to

(49:28):
connect? What am I? Youknow? Right? If you're if you're
inclined to do something and then youalmost feel this like this guilt or you're
like, okay, maybe I'm notgoing to tell anybody about this right now
because they're gonna be like, whatare you doing now? Right? You
know, it's that whole thing.There's also this aspect of just the need
to create. If you do lookat your resume and you're like, okay,

(49:49):
so I was at that job fortwo years and then I moved and
and again, it's not because you'renot a loyal person. It's not because
you're flighty, but you are creative, and there's a soul's calling to create.
And there's also this desire, thislifelong learning. Right, And here's
the thing. It's not only thatyou have a talent a knack for learning

(50:14):
quickly so you're able to scan itfast. So really what it is is
you've sped up the process. Soyou're like, I got what I needed
out of this thing in two years, and so I'm done now. And
everyone's like, what, You're notdoing that for your whole life and you're
like that sounds horrible, Like ohmy goodness, yeah, so so many

(50:34):
levels here. So first I wantto give you my first thought that came
to mind while I was laughing sohard. When you're talking about Leo is
I'm like, I'm just imagining himpainting the Mona Lisa and some like manager
is like standing over his shoulder breathingover him, going, wait a second,
what's going on here? Why areyou painting this this this portrait of
this woman, Like what is justgonna do with whatever it is that he's
supposed to do? Yeah? Right, it's like it meanwhile here he is

(50:59):
painting the Mona Lisa. Not thatI'm equating any of my my work to
the Mona Lisa, but I meanthat's that's really the feeling, right,
It's like you got this manager andit's so wild. But going back to
what you just said there about loyaltyis like I experienced that so much in
all of my my jobs. Isthis feeling of like you said, there's

(51:20):
regret, There's this feeling, thisguilt of like why was I Why did
I come here? And I wasso passionate, I was such a high
performer and then like all of asudden, like like just like like you
know, like a plane crashing,I'm just I'm out. I'm out.
But but loyal right, because likeyou're out in a way where you check

(51:42):
out, but you also don't wantto just quit. You also don't want
to just leave it. And soI'm gonna bring some real world stuff into
here in terms of this, andand uh, for our audience, we're
gonna get a live coaching session fromfrom Lisa here in that you know I'm
working on. And this the creativethat I'm realizing while speaking with you,
I have this. I found anonline whiteboard, so I started working on

(52:06):
this like whole creative idea on buildingthis like amazing like infrastructure for insurance agencies
and branches and all these other things. And I'll and I'll also be open
to that nothing that I'm creating isoriginal in its own way outside of it
coming from me and me just kindof like redirecting things. But but it's

(52:30):
a creative that's coming out of meright Like I needed it to be on
a whiteboard. I couldn't do iton paper. I couldn't do it by
writing it out. It was likeI was struggling. But when I put
it on a whiteboard and I starteddrawing the pictures of the boxes and the
lines and outlining things on the whiteboardand repositioning them, it started making sense
to me. And here's where I'mgoing with the therapy part is like I'm

(52:52):
doing all of that and it's allmaking sense, and it's all like coming
to me to some some sort ofnatural But on the other side of all
of that, I'm also like,all right, I want to build out
this public speaking business, and here'swhat it looks like. And here's what
the podcast look like. And here'swhat I look like on stage and what
I'm going to be doing in myspeaker profile and all this other stuff.

(53:13):
And I want to be an author, and here are my books that I
want to write. And I startdoing these things. And here's the therapy
part. Everyone is I'm going theguilt. I'm going, but wait if
I do that and I stop doingthat, you know, the whiteboard piece
to this, did I give upon something? Did I give up on

(53:36):
a dream, on an idea thatcould be something amazing? And I don't
have the answer right now, Lisa, So I'm going to stop there for
a second here and hear what yourthoughts are. Okay, So I'm loving
this because this is exactly why Inot only help with the holistic productivity side
of you know, trying to doless, doing the decluttering, really simplifying

(54:00):
what we're doing, but specifically withmulti passionates, because I understand the next
level nuances that are happening here sowe talked about what it means to be
one right all the different things thatyou're doing well. The challenge I think
that we have universally and multi passionateshave a little extra, is this idea

(54:20):
of prioritizing what we're doing and dealingwith the idea that we have these things
that we love to do, andis it okay? And what does it
mean each and every time? Thefact of the matter is every day you're
making a choice and was that theright choice? Well, it's coming to
an acceptance that it was the rightchoice in the moment and understanding that everything

(54:43):
that you're doing gives you something youneed. And sometimes this is a great
example in decluttering, when we pickup something, Oh my gosh, my
mom and I used to go shopping. That was something she loved to do,
and she'd pick out these really brightthings and I give the Elvis lip,
No, I don't want that.But sometimes i'd buy something and then

(55:04):
to be in my closet with thetags on, and it would be sitting
there and eventually I would let itgo. But what I did I would
remember that fun that we had,and so the purpose that that served was
not for me to actually wear it, but it was for us to have
that moment together, that experience.So thinking in those terms of all the

(55:27):
things that you have, the passions, you have, the interest. Now
we are inclined toward the bright,shiny object. But why do we have
to make it like that's a negativething. It's only negative if and this
is the same idea with clutter.Okay, clutter is only truly clutter when
it gets in between you and thelife you want to be living. That's
not mine. That's Peter Walsh's quote. But I love it and I stand

(55:50):
by it. So is it gettingin the way. If it's getting in
the way, then it's clutter.So now you take all these different projects
and stuff, and you mentioned beforewas how do they connect? Do they?
And so we have to ask thequestion do they have to connect?
I would flat out and say no, because what's connecting is you. You're
connecting to something your brain is saying, I need to do this. One

(56:15):
of my clients, oh my goodness, just ultimate multi passionate. He is
so successful as an amazing business,lifelong learner, and sometimes he needs these
projects. Uh, you knows he'sgoing and getting another certification right now.
And I'm not going to say no, because it's his happy place. It's

(56:35):
where he got into flow and he'sgetting the gears going and he's and he's
thinking differently. Well, so thisis what you're creating. It doesn't mean
that you're not going back to that, but you do have to prioritize what's
the thing you're focusing on right now. So you may have to hit pause
on that, and then you decideultimately as you continue each day, to

(56:55):
prioritize what's next, what's next,what are you focusing on. That may
wait, it may wait awhile,it may languish, but it had its
purpose in that moment because you're takingthe energy from that. Even the way
you described it was so excited,like your energy shift. Your energy is
already up and your energy completely shiftedwhen you describe that to me. You

(57:19):
take that energy and you're applying intothese other things. Now, let's also
be practical in our lives. Wehave families that we're trying to support,
we have things that we're trying todo, we have information that we want
to share with the world, andsome of it is ready to go faster.
You're already in the podcast you arealready reaching out to the world and

(57:39):
sharing what you lave is important,Well, then that's the better place to
continue to focus your energy as longas you're there with it and that other
project that you have in mind.It's a way you've got to wait.
I have a system for tackling yourto do list in your tasks, and
I call it the four decism.It's a modification of what already exists many

(58:02):
people here like you know, delete, do you know, delay, or
delegate or whatever? And I havethe four of them in a specific order.
So the first one is delete whatdoesn't belong at all, and sometimes
that's something that did belong before.It's okay. You have a change in
life. You have a change likeyou said in career, you have a

(58:22):
change in your interests. You havea change in your focus because now you're
a dad and you're thinking differently.You know, there's so many reasons why
you may shift what you're doing.Now you can look at that what doesn't
belong. Now with the rest ofit, you have to figure out what
you can delegate or automate or whatis the how can this get done?

(58:44):
Not how can I do it?And then the other side of it is
what doesn't belong here. And nowwe talk about prime real estate all the
time. Prime real estate is whatyou have in this day to capture and
to do your energy. And thereare some things where you're like, oh,
I love that, but it doesn'tbelong here right now. I'm not
getting rid of it. I'm justpacking it away. It's like seasonal decorations

(59:06):
for your life. Right you don'tkeep if you celebrate Christmas or whatever.
You know, you don't keep theChristmas decorations in your living room. You
keep them up in the attic orin the basement. They're somewhere where you
can get to them when you needthem. Well, that's the delay of
these things that you love to do. So thinking in those terms, it's
what did it give you in thismoment? Where is it driving you and

(59:30):
informing all the other things you're doing, and when will you come back to
it? Because every day you needto prioritize for so many reasons, the
income that you're bringing in, whatyou need to be working on, what
drives you, based on your obligationsto others. There's so many things that
come together to prioritize and to choosehow does that feel when I say those

(59:54):
things like, how do you connectthe choices that you're making? Now?
I connect all of it. Imean, it's it's I mean, it's
it's incredible, right, It's it'strue to me, It's true to so
many things in life. The partthat that really resonates with me and what
you just said there is being present. Is so there's a duality to this

(01:00:16):
present thing here in that as Ithink as these multi passionate entrepreneurs that we
are, and many and and otherswho don't describe themselves so much, is
that we're we're so present in thatmoment, we're so focused that we do

(01:00:36):
lose touch with reality to everything youjust said there, of the reality of
income, of family, of time, of understanding. Okay, if I'm
gonna build this this network of insurancecompanies and branches, where is my time
spent? And do I prioritize that? You know? Am I the type
of CEO that prioritizes being on theroad and visiting branches and building a team

(01:01:02):
with managers and middle managers. Andbecause I also prioritize relationships and building relationships
with all of my employees. Fantasticif that's who I am. But with
that comes a choice that I haveto make of that means that I'm also
not at my daughter's basketball game orspending time on the couch with my wife,

(01:01:24):
which is also, by the way, very important to spend that time
on the couch, Which leads meto a question for you in terms of
burnout. So many of us arefixated on being that CEO, on being
that entrepreneur who is spending all ofthe time on the road visiting with the

(01:01:45):
team, building the team building thecompany culture with the employees, and looks
at spending the time at the basketballgame with their kids or spending the time
with their spouse on a couch doingnothing as air quotes waste of time.
And my theory behind burnout is becauseyou didn't air quotes waste time, in

(01:02:07):
other words, be present in thoseother times that give you that fill your
tank, it leads to burnout.And I know that you also have some
really great ideas on burnout and alsoavoiding it, and so I'd love us
to jump into their now, yesplease, And that was actually what I
was going to bring up next aswell from a slightly different angle. So

(01:02:29):
let's dig into it multi passionates becauseof that presence that you're talking about.
Because of that, that inclination todeep dive into a particular passion of the
most passion du jur if you know. Okay, okay, because of that
and maybe not always having the holisticperspective, which is why when I work

(01:02:53):
with someone as a coach, Ican help bring that back around. We
can connect it in the ways thatit needs to be connect did right.
That's why multi passionates, I think, can be more inclined toward burnout.
And this is because so you're present, you're in the moment in that passion,
and that's great because it feeds you. But if you take it too

(01:03:15):
far and then you're neglecting everything else, that becomes Here's the key, and
this is the key to me toall the burnout. The busy work not
productive work, and unfortunately society reallyloves that busy thing because then you are
perceived as being important, as engagedat CEO, that's traveling and doing all

(01:03:38):
the things. A lot of timesthat can be busy work actually not productive
work, especially productive from the wholelife perspective, and it's honored a bit
too much. How you doing howI'm so busy, that's so much,
so many irons in the fire,so much going on. You'll never hear

(01:04:01):
me saying that. It's a matterof fact. If someone's like, oh,
are you seen busy this week,I'm like active, extractive this week.
I don't even want to use theword busy because I want to be
so careful of that productive. Okay, Productivity is doing the right thing at
the right time, the right wayfor you. And so if we look
at that distinction now we don't Again, it goes back to that when I

(01:04:26):
say, when the wheels are spinning, but they're not engaged, you know,
and when you're not you have theconnectivity of your life that you're talking
about now, to your point aboutthe quote air quotes doing nothing on the
couch, so that doing nothing isreally something. I think what we lose
sight of is what the something is. When I talk about creating space in

(01:04:47):
your life and you're like, it'sspace. Clutter is a great example where
oh my gosh, that shelf isempty, that space is empty, we
have to fill it with something.We're uncomfortable with that space. If we
think about that space as oh,but that's where everybody puts their bags when
they come in after we've traveled,or that's going to be the space when
we have someone visit and they puttheir stuff, or you know, we

(01:05:11):
give it a different purpose, andI think the same thing goes for Okay,
being very clear on what the purposeis of sitting on the couch with
your wife. First of all,if you heard it here first, then
listen to this again on loop.Rest is productive period. Okay. It's
like white space and art. Youneed that. You know, you need

(01:05:32):
that corresponding space. You need rest. You are a human, not a
machine. So that's number one.Number two, you need to connect socially
and you need to connect with thoseyou love. And if your wife has
a love language of quality time andpotentially physical touch, then sitting with her

(01:05:58):
on the couch, you have nowrested yourself, which is productive. You
have attended to her needs and toher love languages, which is extremely productive
for your relationship, which is partof the support system. You mentioned earlier
that we need to build our bestlives. So it's not the nothing we

(01:06:21):
think it is. Yeah, andshe certainly does have a love language of
just time spent together. It's sofunny we we had a date a couple
of weeks back, and we gota babysitter for it. So for me,
you know, when when I'm gettingdressed up nowadays, it's it's,
uh, you know, nice shirt, jeans, whatever. But you know,

(01:06:42):
I'm putting on my my freshest Jordans, right, So I got my
I got my nice white Jordans on. To her, they're just sneakers.
But to me, I put onmy white Jordans. So we get in
the car and I'm like, so, what are we doing? We got
we got the babysitter. What arewe doing? Where are we going?
She goes, I don't care.I just want to spend time with you.
Let's go to Ups. We havea couple things to drop off.
I'm like, Devin, Devin,do you realize I just put on my
Jordans here? Like, do yourealize what I'm wearing? And you want

(01:07:06):
me to go into ups right now? I thought we're going on a date.
She goes, Yeah, it isa date. We're spending time together.
So it's so funny. I lovethat you you you spoke about that
in terms of a love language,because yeah, everybody has a different love
language for me, it's it's adate where we're going to go to a
movie or a dinner or an activity. And for her it's just like we

(01:07:29):
can just run errands and it's adate. And I'm so confused. And
by the way, that is efficiencyright in there, which I absolutely love.
I you know, I cannot havea conversation without mentioning the eighty twenty
principle A right, so eighty percentyou can get eighty percent of the way
toward your goal with about twenty percentof the effort or the input. Right.
So when you look at, forexample, a relationship, because we

(01:07:51):
do have time limitations, I getthat, you know, we're trying to
maximize every moment. And if wehave someone as important is our spouse,
where we want to do right bythem. If we understand the love language,
then you can be like, oh, okay, so I could stop
at home depot, we could goto the UPS store, I could you
know, take her out for herfavorite tacos. I'm just guessing here,

(01:08:12):
and you know, and then boom, I've just achieved, like you know,
master efficiency where I've gotten these uherrands done and we've connected. Yeah.
I love that, and I youknow, It's funny that you brought
up rest because I'm doing lives everymorning now. So every morning I go
on Instagram Live, I do alive before eight o'clock. And this morning,

(01:08:34):
I actually spoke about the power ofsleep and the importance of sleep and
how important it is to get seven, seven to eight hours of sleep every
single night. And I was justlistening to Brendan Burchard's training on productivity and
he was speaking about that and howthe science backs it in that you know,
the people that are sleeping less thanseven hours, productivity drops and you're,

(01:08:58):
you know, not operating at youroptimum level. So I spoke about
that this morning, and it's soimportant, so important. Something I want
to just share as a visualization foreveryone with what you just shared there,
and I'd love your input on it. So I played basketball, and I
when you were talking about busy work, I was thinking about last night.
So we had a So I playedin a basketball league and we had a
game and we were playing man toman defense, which you could just imagine

(01:09:21):
it. It is what it's called, right, it's man to man,
it's person to person defense. AndI'm guarding my person. I get a
screen on me. Now, ascreen means that somebody stood in front of
me and I can't get to myperson. So I lose my person.
And so what happens on my team, on any team, but on my
teammate then goes to my person andI pick up the screen or I pick

(01:09:43):
up the person that screened me.But in that moment that that I kind
of saw here was I. Wedidn't communicate well, me and my teammate
on if he was going to goto my person when I got screened or
if I was going to try tobreak through the screen and stay with my
person. And so what ended uphappening because of that miscommunication is I ended

(01:10:03):
up going right left, right,left, right left. And while from
maybe an outsider's perspective who doesn't knowthe game, because if you know the
game, you can see what happened. But from an outsider perspective, I
look busy. I'm going right,left, right, left, My hands
are up, I'm engaged as adefender, my eye contact is on the
ball. I'm trying to communicate withmy teammates saying I'm here and trying to

(01:10:25):
I'm busy, but I'm doing nothingto prevent the basket which did end up
happening because of this miscommunication, becauseof me just being busy, the ball
went to the to the corner boomthree pointer. So that's busy, and
that's what business looks like. It'sit's you're not productive to the end goal

(01:10:45):
of stopping the ball from penetrating orfrom from going to the basket. And
one more in the analogy of basketballin terms of spacing. We see this
so much with kids sports, andsomebody just called it recently and I was
like, wow, that's really good. Analogy was like the beehive mentality where
little kids on the soccer field,little kids playing basketball. When they're playing

(01:11:06):
these organized sports, they all groupedtogether and sall right, right, they
surround the ball, there's no spacing, and because there's no spacing, the
ball doesn't enter the goal typically endsup getting pushed out of bounds and kids
fall on top of each other.So that's how how important spacing is in
sports. And then we could justequate it to life. Right, that's

(01:11:30):
right. So yeah, I thinkthat the description of what you were doing
in basketball and the nuance there ofhow you looked impressive too. I'm sure
that looked very impressive, arms upand engaged and moving back and forth.
But here's the thing. Not onlywas that not efficient because you guys could

(01:11:51):
have broken through the screen or youknow, or you could have gotten around
the screen or you know, donewhat you needed to do if you two
were communicating. And it also isn'teffective because the shot got through right.
So but again from most people,and that's a that's such a good metaphor
in terms of productivity is a lotof people will look at look at all

(01:12:11):
the stuff you have on your calendar, look at what you're doing or you
spend you know, you ever haveone of those mornings where you're like,
wow, those two hours? Whatdid I do? Right? What was
those two hours? Hi? Busywork? But you know, it's not
that you didn't go in with thebest of intentions. It's not that you
weren't working. You were, butit wasn't engaging. And the phrase that

(01:12:33):
you used, I think is sucha good one, is you know,
to connect to the end goal.Is this moving the needle forward? Is
this moving me one step closer towhat I'm trying to achieve? Do I
know what I'm trying to achieve?Because that's another way to get busy work
really cranking in your life is belike, I don't even know what we're

(01:12:54):
working forward here, clarity, let'slet's let's get let's dig it into that.
You know, yeah, and youknow from from you know, a
coach is there on the sideline,and that's part of their role is to
help you figure out that you're doinga busy work. And you have a
very good way of speaking about coaches, managers, leadership in general in understanding

(01:13:15):
the balance between pushing and nurturing.And I'd love for you to kind of
share how that relates in this world, that that you know, from an
entrepreneurial standpoint, from a corporate standpoint, how the importance between balancing the two.
Oh, I love that question.And I was like, oh,
and I had this moment where you'relike, you have a really great way

(01:13:35):
of describing that, like I do. Let's see, because I think it's
just it's intrinsic in me. So, first of all, let's be clear
about you know, how we're definingwhat a coach is versus like a consultant,
and I actually work as both tosome extent, but mostly a coach
and the coach here is trying toelicit the best in you, but you

(01:13:57):
are discovering it. And so bottomline is, though, from a coaching
standpoint, is we come to anagreement right away that this is your game
right and you are playing it.So I can't do it for you and
I can't want it for you.So from a coaching standpoint, I mean

(01:14:19):
that's hard too because I'm once youknow you are my client. I am
cheering you on like crazy, andI want you to succeed, but I
can't. You know, I can'tdo it for you, can't want it
for you. So with that,it's the here's what we need, here's
the structure we need. We haveto set up a system that will create

(01:14:41):
the accountability that you need and thatactually ties into our self awareness. You
know, our personality types, ourinclinations. I do a significant bit of
assessment prior to our work together thathelps me understand and how you will show
up best, how you will beinclined to do habits you know certain habits,

(01:15:08):
and how we can structure and designsystems that will make sense for you
that you will actually show up for. So to me, it's it's the
push of how you know what doyou need. I Ultimately, I probably
air on the side of nurturing becauseI think that everything we need to do

(01:15:30):
it needs compassion because of trauma andgrief, and in this holistic view of
our worlds, we can just belike, Okay, I'm here, I
got to do business stuff and beingproductive and you know, and then never
mind the fact that you know,my cat is sick and my you know,
and I just had a lousy dayand you know, imposter syndrome is

(01:15:50):
like screaming in my head. Youknow, No, you can't never mind.
You have to incorporate all of that. So there's a compassionate element to
it. But then you keep pushingforward by saying, what's your next best
step. You talked about Frozen beforewith let it Go. That's the decluttering
song while and Frozen two you know, the next right thing, that's what

(01:16:15):
you're looking for. And so Idon't know if that answered exactly the question
you were asking, but that's mytake on coaching, pushing, nurturing,
and how we create harmony with allof that to keep moving forward, to
keep progressing. Yeah, I mean, what I'll I'll say is the reason
why I believe that you have sucha great way of describing it is just

(01:16:40):
by using simple words. To behonest, is I just love the fact
that you just say push and nurture. You know, it's just simple ways
we can understand we understand them.I'm actually kind of not kind of I
am leaning into that more to useto use a not so simple analogy there,
but but I am. You know, you know, when you first

(01:17:00):
start out with in public speaking andin speaking in general, you think that
using these big words and uh,you know, they make you sound like
you know what you're talking about andso smart and everything. But really what
it does is it confuses the audienceand they're just sitting there going, wow,
he's able to say eloquently. Sonice, But I don't know what

(01:17:20):
eloquently means that. I don't knowwhat that was right, right? It
was? It was that was reallycool, But I have no idea what
you said, sir. Uh.And so that's why I kind of when
when I saw that on the paperhere, I saw a push and nurture,
I was like, I understand whatshe's saying there. And you know
the reason why I teed it upwith the basketball analogy was, you know,

(01:17:40):
you can have a coach push you, but they can only push you
so far without giving you back somenurturing. So that's why the balance is
so important, is that you couldpush somebody so hard, but if you
don't give them nurture, they starttuning you out. And then if you
nurture somebody so much, that's whereyou're just keeping them safe in the nest

(01:18:00):
and you're just never letting them justkind of stand on the edge and open
their wings. You're just right.So the balance is so important to be
able to give that little push,let them fall off of the off,
out of the nest and onto theground, you know, give them that
little push, but also go backand pick them up off the ground and

(01:18:20):
help them fly and fly with them, you know. So I really love
that the way that you put itthere, because it's it's visual if I
could feel it, it resonates withme and it goes into so many things
in life. As any type ofleader that you are to push your team
to set goals to help them achievethose, but also to be there on

(01:18:41):
the back end to nurture them,to find out what is the roadblock,
what a is preventing you from gettingto your next goal. And on that
train of thought again, I justheard this and Brendan Burchard's training, I'm
I'm kind of like sucked into hisGrowth Growth Day app right now. So
I'm all in right now watching allof his trainings and everything. So so
many things are sticking with me herein that you know, if you can

(01:19:03):
have somebody create and you just saidthis too, by the way, in
your clients, when when you createyour own goals, when you create your
own reality, you're going to goafter it. More so when you think
about it from a leader's perspective,like I actually asked this of my team,
like how many calls do you wantto make? How many calls make
sense to you? I'm gonna tellyou what makes sense to me to make

(01:19:25):
on how many calls worked for mewhen I was selling insurance. But how
many calls can you commit to?How many calls can you commit to that?
When I asked you, did youmake those calls? You're comfortable telling
me if you fell short or ifyou exceeded that goal. And they set
some real some realistic expectations sometimes thatI'm not too comfortable with, but but

(01:19:47):
there are their expectations and they actuallymeet them, which is so different than
me telling them and if they had, if they'd gone outside of themselves.
And this is where that self awareness, right and understanding and pulling all that
together is so important if they've takenit from you solely. The other thing

(01:20:08):
that can happen is so often it'slike our minds are immediately there. Our
brains are trying to protect us constantly. Right, Threats are everywhere, they're
right, And so you come upwith something and the first thought because they're
nervous, they're excited, they wantto do well, but they don't know
if they're going to do well.You know, it's like all the feelings

(01:20:28):
right, all at the same time. And then you throw out a number.
It's not their number, it wasn'tself created, right, so it's
already coming from outside. And thenthey're like, and then that's where paralysis
comes in. That's where self sabotagecomes in, because there is that immediate
uncertainty. But if you're creating it, if you're saying it, you're stating
it. You're like, so casein point, I'm coaching someone and I

(01:20:53):
say, all right, so youwant to work on this goal, could
you you know, not all throwout an idea, So could you do
you know some this this kind ofthing you know each morning, or what
if this take take this step orwhatever. And I can see in their
face like sometimes when they're like andI'm like, I can see that sounds

(01:21:15):
about as fun as a root canalto you. So let's take another direction,
you know what I mean. Andof course, the more that you
understand who you are, if youare an introvert and you have a circadian
rhythm, so we get into allof it, right, love languages,
you know, whether you're a nightowl or a you know, an early
bird. You know, like where'swhere's your energy being placed during the day.

(01:21:36):
So if you are most energetic atnight and you are an introvert,
suggesting to you that you attend anearly morning in person networking event is not
good advice. Right, You startto understand, and it's no wonder when
you went and join that group andyou don't keep showing up that you are

(01:21:58):
not doing that thing, you arenot building the habit. And then most
of the time when that happens,what do we do? We blame ourselves?
Right, what's wrong with me?M It's not it's what's wrong is
you chose something that didn't come fromyou. Yeah, you had mentioned the

(01:22:19):
word imposter syndrome before, and somuch of what we're talking about kind of
stems from that is goals that areput on you. This this outside force
that we're that we're kind of creatingtoo, like, and it's this imposter
syndrome of like needing to perform totheir goals and expectations rather than our own

(01:22:42):
goals and expectations. Yeah, I'minterested on how you deal with with imposter
syndrome, whether it's for yourself orwith your clients. So my take on
imposter syndrome is, Okay, it'sthis idea of it's when you sit there,
you're you want to do something,whatever it happens to be, you
know, showing up as a gueston an interview or you know, or

(01:23:05):
stepping out as an expert in yourfield and sharing information that you believe to
be valuable, whatever it happens tobe. It's when you sit back and
you ask the question, who amI to be doing this? To me?
That very clearly indicates, oh,there's imposter syndrome, because so what's

(01:23:27):
happening now? I want to digin like, are you comparing yourself?
Well, if I compare myself toBurnet Brown, that's never ending. Well,
Jay's on baseballs, but I haveI'm my own person. I have
my own way of saying things.Then you start talking about well, what
is it, what is it thatyou're trying to do, and how might
that look and who would need tohear it and why might they need to

(01:23:50):
hear it from you? You startto explore all these different ways, like
sometimes the sheer fact okay, andthese are marketing facts, right, that
people need to hear things on repeatbefore it ever engages in their brain,
that they need to hear it differently. How many times have you dug into

(01:24:12):
books or podcasts or different things onthe same exact topic. And then you
hit someone like you just mentioned BrendanBraschard a bunch of times. Well,
obviously the way he's saying those things, I'm sorry, he's not saying new
things, okay, And I don'tmean that in any disrespect, but that's
the fact. I'm not saying newthings, but I'm packaging them and explaining

(01:24:34):
them and hopefully away that's going tobe like got it? Okay, So
when you start thinking about that,you're like, oh, okay, so
then maybe it's not the thing I'mtrying to do. It's what I'm bringing
to the table. What am Ibringing to the table doesn't matter what other
people are And one of my absolutefavorite ways to counteract imposter syndrome is to

(01:25:00):
talk to people. Look in thecase of you know, business, where
you've been at it long enough tohave testimonials, to have thank you notes.
It could be a thank you notefrom a friend of yours. It
could be a Facebook message where someonewas like that idea of yours was flipping
brilliant. I don't know where youcame up with that, but like,

(01:25:20):
I'm on a roll now. I'mgood to go. Wherever that feedback is
coming from. You tap into thatand you're like, oh, that's what
I do. You understand your strengthswhen you know that's what you're good at.
My character strengths, nobody's going tobe shocked. One of them is
humor, and that I love makingpeople laugh, or at least myself laugh

(01:25:44):
because I think I'm hysterical and youknow, and just being light about the
harder stuff because the nurture and mewants to be like Okay, there's a
lot going on out there, it'sgonna be okay. But when you tap
into you forget about the comparison,tap into what's really good. Take the
feedback from people. Figure out,like, if you're designing it, what

(01:26:06):
you said before about it comes fromyou, and you're designing it, you
don't have time for imposter syndrome becauseyou can't be imposter. There's no imposter
happening because there's nobody like you inthat moment, doing that thing, saying
that thing. Yeah, it's youknow, it's so funny. Some of

(01:26:27):
the things that you say. Irelate to so well. In fact,
I just had a voicemail from apodcast guest that I had on several months
ago. Actually, she was callingme for the audio file of the show,
which which I happily give out toour guests, and she left me
a voicemail, and in her voicemail, she was just speaking about the experience

(01:26:48):
and how it moved her and allthis these wonderful things she said in it.
And I was like, I've gotto save this voicemail like it's mine.
It's not even like I don't knowhow to share a voicemail, nor
do I. I mean, ofcourse I would want to shout to the
rooftops about you know, getting avoicemail like this to anybody, but but
it's mine, and I saved itbecause I'm like, it's so nice to

(01:27:10):
hear and You're so right. Itreally does help build that confidence and that
confidence boost so so big. Andthe other thing that you talked about there,
which which is also impactful for meand I hope for for our audience
here, is we're not doing anythingnew. We're just doing it differently in
our own design. And I lovethat and I can really relate with that

(01:27:31):
because you know, as I mentionedto you before we got on the ERA,
I'm working on right now, acourse for culture, for company culture
essentially, and I did have someanxieties about performing this at a conference that
there's going to be several thousand peopleat. And I'm like, you know,
the imposter syndrome is real, right, like I'm feeling it. I
feel it like I'm like, I'mgonna be in front of a couple hundred

(01:27:54):
people in this one workshop. Iknow it's gonna be a couple hundred because
they tell you that, and I'mgoing to be speaking about culture or what
do I know about culture? Allof a sudden happens, right, But
the truth is is that I've learneda ton from watching and listening and reading
and also enacting in my own business. So there's that. And the other
impostor that comes up for me andthat you just touched on, is is,

(01:28:16):
well, what am I telling themthat's new? And you're one hundred
percent right and that there's nothing newabout it. It's just how Michael interprets
it and shares it because you're onehundred percent right. There's so many books
that I read that I'm like,I could have just read that other book
three times over, but I'm boredof that other book, and I just
need it from somebody else in adifferent way, in a different format,

(01:28:39):
and I'm getting the same message putinto my mind in a different way.
It's so true even in our conversationright now, and you have such wonderful
active listening skills. You're absorbing it, you're reiterating it, you're saying,
Okay, so what I'm hearing isthis, you know, but you can
tell coach and we're talking coach tocoach here. We're having such a hashtag

(01:29:00):
coaches says right. But because ofthat, even in this conversation, we're
each talking about a topic and someonelistening is going to get something more out
of how you described it in amoment, or maybe more out of how
I described it in a moment.It's just different, but it's the same
topic. And that just that's beneficialall around you are you, And that

(01:29:25):
ultimately does go back to finding yourniche and finding your people. And I
can speak to these topics, butI can speak to them with regard to
multi passionates. And you've said somany times in this conversation, yes that's
me. You get it. Iget it, okay, And then you
start applying it and it creates awonderful chain reaction of AHAs. Yeah,
these AHAs are fun, and youfind a lot of AHAs in your clients

(01:29:49):
and in so many different ways.I know that you you spoke about it
in your in your bio here aboutlike every client's AHA is like this success,
uh, this great success for you. You know. I'm just interested
in what that feels like for you. When you see that your clients bounce

(01:30:12):
around, and then I have tolike go tell anybody who will listen,
including one of my cats. Itdoesn't matter. I'm just like I cheer.
I will tell my clients I dosing to my clients. I will,
I will jump in down and dohappy dances on video for them.
But it's this, It's just allI can say is it's so satisfying because

(01:30:33):
remember how I said before, Iwant this for them, but I can't
do it for them, and Iyou know, and I can't want they
have to want it. And I'mhoping this for them, you know what
I mean. It's that's why I'mshowing up. I'm showing up fully and
I'm going to do everything I canand you just have to be like I

(01:30:55):
did all I can. All right, let's see if it worked. You
know, this reminds me of likeso many movies you watch where they're like
trying to fix something under dire circumstancesthat it's not always dieer. Sometimes it's
a matter of you're so close andyou're letting this one thing get in the
way. Let's do our best toremove it and like open it up and
let's see see how fast can youtake it go on the highway. And

(01:31:17):
that moment. I had a recentmoment where what we were celebrating was the
fact that this client is actually goingthrough a lot of challenges this year that
he couldn't have anticipated. And nowhe's like, I'm handling this so much
better than I ever would if wehad not worked together last year. And

(01:31:38):
I was like, this is aripple effect. What you do, the
things you say, the chances youtake instead of who am I to say
this? Who am I not tosay this? And take a chance that
somebody somewhere needs it? As aripple effect, you may never know.
And I think this aha moment thatclient had a night that resonates with me

(01:32:00):
for sure. I'm I'm I alwaysspeak about my coach merit as well,
and uh, and I know thatI've gone through a lot of things in
the last two years and starting abusiness and having two businesses and a podcast
and employees and partners in terms ofcontractors and all this other stuff. I've
experienced a tremendous amount two daughters anda wife and family and trying to And

(01:32:23):
I'm like, I don't think I'veever been more sane and less anxious,
Like I'm not even I'm not eventaking my anti acids anymore. I'm like,
good I've never been more present,And a lot of it has to
it really is, and I thinkit has to do with something that you
focus on with your clients. Andthat was one of your biggest lessons from

(01:32:45):
taking care of your mother, whichis take it away the small stuff,
right, not sweating the small stuff. It's it's perspective, right, it's
big old life perspective of it's it'sall it's really all small stuff or or
if there is something that isn't smallstuff. The more that you understand how
much is small stuff and to removeit, to not let it distract you,

(01:33:08):
right, the more you're able tofocus in on what is the big
stuff? What does really matter toyou? That goes back to your values,
right, what's in when you havealignment in your life, this happens.
There's a term called cognitive dissonance,right where you're like, I'm trying
to do the thing and I havea certain but this is what I value

(01:33:30):
and it's not fitting. You talkedabout like, Okay, you're the CEO
and you're building and you're traveling,but you have a wife and kids that
you want to spend time with.That's actually why, Well, a number
of my clients, but one inparticular I'm thinking of in my mind who
came to me and he's like,I've built this successful business, I'm on
it, But what legacy am Ileaving my kids if I'm not spending any

(01:33:54):
time with them? You know,that's what we call the work life balance.
I call it the work life harmbecause sometimes there is an ebb and
flow. Sometimes you do need togive more to one one area of your
life than others. But it's theit's the connectivity and coming back to it
and understanding the ebb and flow andknowing, you know, having the norm
be the harmony and then the exceptionto be the extension. It's yeah,

(01:34:20):
it's just it's it's being at peacewith all of that. I think,
acceptance and really knowing what matters toyou, because when you do and you're
in alignment, you're going to showup differently. You are going to do
the habits, that the things,whatever action steps you need to take.
If that's in alignment with who youare, it's going to work for you.

(01:34:42):
Okay some point. Integrity is ahuge one for me, and so
there are certain ways that I willnot market. You know, there's certain
things that I will not do thathave been proven in business to work,
but they go against my values.So I may be taking the quote harder

(01:35:04):
road sometimes from a business perspective,but I'm okay with that. Yeah,
yeah, I feel the same way. You know, when it goes back
to the cold calls or the phonecalls about my team, it's it's a
similar conversation that I've had with withother business leaders where that are like,
you're not making one hundred calls aday, and I'm going I started my
own business because I don't want tomake a hundred calls a day. I
don't want to be that guy.And if I don't want to be that

(01:35:26):
person, then why do I wantmy team members to be that person?
I want them to make calls thatare thoughtful, you know, that are
that are two people that they've madea connection with or that they can make
a connection with, not just randomlygoing down a list. And it is
the harder route because you know,I tell my team before you call somebody,
look them up. Who are they? What do you share in common

(01:35:48):
with them, what's the purpose ofthe call? How can you connect with
that person? And if you can'tfind that, if you can't answer those
questions, then don't call them.You're not ready to call them yet.
You know, it's not about sellingthem anything. First of all, everybody
needs insurance, right, so it'snot about selling them anything. It's about
can I connect with that person?And that's what I'm asking you to commit

(01:36:09):
to when you make those numbers,those calls. So it is a harder
round, and you're one hundred percentwrite with the value. And I want
to add to you know, ifyou're having a trouble trying to find out
everything you just spoke about, ifyou're having trouble trying to find out what
those values are, what that smallstuff is. You know, I had
heard it with Tony Robbins the eight, you know, being an eighty year
old in the rocking chair and mycoach and I do this, and I'm

(01:36:31):
sure you do this with your clientstoo, of like writing a letter to
yourself a year from now or so. And so I was recently just going
experiencing some trouble and trying to figureout like what how do I go forward
with this? How do I moveforward with this process? And what's important
to me right now? And I'mI was having trouble with making a decision
on something, and so I decidedto take my notebook out and I was

(01:36:54):
like, I'm going to write aletter to myself. So I started writing,
Dear Michael, you know such andsuch. I start saying something and
I said, it's twenty years later, and I was like, WHOA,
Why did I choose twenty years?So I decided to put myself as a
sixty one year old and so whatever, go with it, right, because
that's what came to mind. Andit was like, you know, I'm
writing to myself as as sixty yearone year old Michael, and it's you

(01:37:16):
know, I want to thank you. And you know, the first thing
I started with was gratitude of likeI want to thank you for building the
life that you've built. And Istart and I'm getting emotional just thinking about
this letter and it was only afew days ago, and I start being
grateful for the people in my life, the loved ones, and in all

(01:37:36):
of that, I'm where I'm goingwith this. None of that is saying
I'm so thankful for the Lamborghini thatwe're driving today. You know, none
of that is speaking about the materialthings. And it's not that I was
being super conscious about I so wasnot conscious in this moment, like I'm
gonna tell you, right, I'mpaying a picture for everybody. I I

(01:38:00):
was sitting in the dark with acandle on and a space heater because it
was kind of like cold in myhouse in a in a room, and
and I was just like honestly justtrying to warm up. When I was
like thinking about this, I waslike, I'm going to meditate. And
then I was like, I can'tmeditate. I need to write. And
that's how this all came about.So I was not conscious, all right,
because if I was conscious, Iprobably would have like not been in

(01:38:20):
that space. So I'm writing thisout and but these were the things that
were important, were the people,the family, the loved ones, and
the integrity that I went forward withmy businesses and what I'm doing. And
that's how it helped me come tothe choice. Which I'm not going to

(01:38:41):
go into that part, but ifyou're having trouble trying to find I say,
you know, write a letter toyourself. I don't know whether it's
six months from now, a yearfrom now, twenty years from now,
like it was for me, rightright, write a letter to yourself.
I love that and it's such asimple technique. So I do say that
I have three worksheets that I usewith all my clients, and I put

(01:39:03):
them out there as a free resourcefor anyone to grab if they want to
along those lines. But the letterwriting is kind of fun. So that's
something where if you're just like,Okay, I don't have time to look
at a worksheet or do whatever,do the letter thing. But those three
worksheets do touch upon what we talkedabout. One of them is, in

(01:39:25):
fact at Core Values exercise with alist of words, so you can kind
of play you're answering some prompts verysimilar, or you could write the letter
and then you could go look atthe worksheet and be like, oh,
yeah, those are my words,you know, integrity education, you know,
I'm tossing out my words. Butthen there is a focus file,
which is actually it isn't exercise tohelp people, which you could do without

(01:39:47):
the worksheet as well. Set atimer for five minutes, take everything that's
in your brain right, sweep itout, kind of like David Allen's getting
things done. Put it someplace safethat is not your to do list,
though that as to choose list.It's something you process, okay. And
then the third worksheet is a joylist worksheet, which is again like these

(01:40:09):
are like a few minutes each,some prompts that ask you some questions about
what lights you up, what youlove, and it is a combination of
showing you where your energy will beand what energizes you and what you love
to do that can be really effectiveas self care. So it's like creating
your own self care guide. It'sall the things that we've talked about and

(01:40:30):
it's very very simple. But yeah, when you know those things, it
changes your perspective and your approach oneverything from you know, your calendar to
cold callings. Yeah, and thedecisions that you make. And where can
everybody find those worksheets? Oh,positively productive dot com right on the homepage.

(01:40:51):
Awesome, and of course that'll bein the show notes. Yeah,
it's it really does change your perspective. That's you know, I kind of
lost track when I started telling itbecause I got a motion all, but
that's why I was telling it wasabout perspective in that moment of like,
you know what, sometimes we putso much emphasis on the decisions that we're
making in the moment and honestly,twenty years from now, that decision doesn't

(01:41:12):
matter. It doesn't matter. Imean, of course there's going to be
some life changing decisions that you're goingto make. Understand that I'm not talking
about those decisions. I'm talking aboutlike those like little nonsensical decisions that were
so tripped up on, and thatperspective is so important and so helpful.
You know, there are a lotof decisions that we make, and one

(01:41:35):
that I really love when I seemy guests come on and share is making
the decision to give back, giveback to their community and serve their community.
And you're doing that in so manyways with with the with the Alzheimer's
community and the association that you're you'reworking with, and other women's organizations.

(01:41:57):
I'd love for you if you'd liketo just share how you're working with them,
how you're helping them, or whatthe good work that they're doing with
our audience. That's wonderful. SoI started with the Alzheimer's Association. I
haven't done that recently, but itwas a great kicking off point to be
able to say, listen, here'smy story, let's keep sharing it.
What I'm doing currently in our communityhere is there's a financial conference that specifically

(01:42:25):
for women that we have every yearin the southern tier of New York State.
And what I love about that there'sa Cornell Cooperative Extension is involved in
it and a number of different entrepreneursthat come together as a committee to create
this because they've seen so often thatthere's different conversations about money that women have
than men, as there's a differenceand if being are a prom an entrepreneur,

(01:42:48):
ya know what I'm talking about,And so it's wonderful to just say,
can we just talk money? Canwe talk finances? Not be so
afraid of it? And I thinkthat's so incredible because we are such a
big part of the purchasing decisions thatare out there in the world. So
I have been a keynote speaker tothem, and I waive my fee to

(01:43:10):
do so. I'm also part ofthe Cornell Cooperative Extension the Health and Financial
Wellness of the community. I volunteeron their committee for so they're they're deciding,
you know, what kinds of programsthe program and committee essentially and what
they do in the community to helppeople, especially when we've gone through things

(01:43:33):
like, I mean, this pandemicthat has changed, you know, the
nature of how we work, removedsome people's means for employment, and I
just shifted everything. So they wereclosely with all different other other other groups

(01:43:55):
in the community, like Proaction andthings like that to help the reserved in
the community. And so I'm proudto be there and to help support them,
I mean by showing up at acommittee meeting and you know, offering
whatever insight and innovation I can.And I'm also a member of our local
library board, and just to shoutout to libraries. They're not going anywhere.

(01:44:17):
They are changing and evolving, andthey are such an incredible resource.
And the thing that some people forgetis like it's not, oh, this
is a place to go and getbooks, but it's a place to be
connected to the community and the historyof the community. So yeah, I'm
on the library board as well.That's pretty cool. Yeah, I didn't

(01:44:38):
realize the importance or what you said, the community of libraries until the girls,
my kids came along and started doingit, and it started reminding me
of when I was a little kidand going to the library with my grandmother
and the mommy and me classes andthe audio books that we would pick up
from there and reading there, andI remember it vividly, and I lost

(01:45:00):
of it in my teen in twentiesand thirties, as one does, as
one does. But going back toit now, you know, the library
in our community here is a beautifulone. They just built it and and
it has so much to offer.And every time I'm in there, I
run into an old friend or somethingand a conversation and I kind of browse
some of the self development books becauseI do love them. So it's it's

(01:45:20):
wonderful. You know, you mentionedsomething in there that I just don't want
us to just end the podcast withoutsharing or speaking to, which is on
the public speaking side of the business. Your your public speaker. I'm one
as well, and I know thatwe have a lot of listeners who are
that are you know, the aspiringpodcasters, aspiring keynotes, aspiring speakers.

(01:45:42):
And we spoke about that earlier onOne of the things I want to just
mention and you could elaborate on,is as you speak at these these non
for profit events and waving your fee, and I think that that's one terrific
and I applaud you for that,but two, it also is a really
great way for you to be ableto practice your skill, right. It's

(01:46:04):
it's a great way for you tobe able to go out get exposure,
be in front of a new audience, practice to skill because that's the biggest
thing with public speaking. And soI'm interested if you could just share shine
a little bit light of on onpodcasting on public speaking for our audience members
who might be aspiring to do thesame thing that we're doing right here.

(01:46:25):
Okay, so there are two differentlanes, so just keep that in mind,
but there's there tends to be overlappingthat oftentimes we you know, those
of us who do one like todo the other. And that's actually a
really good thing to consider. Thisis especially from a personality standpoint, a
productivity standpoint, is that you aregoing to be fed a different kind of

(01:46:46):
energy stepping out and being like akeynote speaker than you are a podcaster.
Right, so you may find thatyou love one more than the other.
Uh, You're right about going outand and finding places to volunteer. So
this is a great example of youdon't always have to throw money at something,
so to speak, you can youoffer in kind services and that are

(01:47:10):
very valuable and that, you knowmatter it does allow you to practice,
And you're right, I've also donecontinuing education credits. Actually, I've realized
the full circle that happened is that, you know, in the last couple
of years, I've done a presentationfor chapters of NAPO, the National Association

(01:47:30):
of Productivity Organizing Professionals. That's amouthful. I've done continuing education credit presentations
for some chapters and so that's awonderful full circle from having started with them
and creating this business. But you'reright, those signature talks you can do
as you're volunteering. So those arethings where you get involved in local committees,

(01:47:56):
you connect with people, you findthe people who are in charge of,
you know, offering these presentations.Local libraries are a great resource for
that because a lot of times theywill develop those. So that's my tip
there. In terms of podcasting,it is a commitment. So is blogging
for that matter. And I starteda blog once upon a time because people

(01:48:16):
said, hey, you're business owner, start a blog. And this is
me blowing the dust stuff my blogbecause I just I was not doing yet
because I don't get jazzed up aboutsitting and writing on a blank page like
I do by having a conversation likeyou and I are having to do so
right, So that's you find youfind the way that feels good for you,

(01:48:41):
and podcasting can be that way.Then there's all different kinds my recommendations
to you. I mean, yes, I know a lot of people like
to talk about equipment. I putsome on my favorite page of of my
website just because, like, thereare certain things that I love that are
very reasonably priced. You can dothis all on a budget. But before
you worry about any of that,know your reason why why you want to

(01:49:05):
do this? Is it a hobby? Is it for fun? Is it
to generate leads for your business andestablish yourself as an expert? It's some
street cred you know that sort ofthing. Know why you want to do
it, and this is actually agreat life lesson. It's it's a big
part of what I coach because whenwe know the why of let's say a

(01:49:27):
space in our home that we're decluttering, why do you what do you want
to use it for? What's thepurpose? Right? Your why? When
you know your why in terms ofwhat you want to do in your life
and you look at your calendar andam I doing things that connect to that?
Knowing that why creates the filter forwhat belongs and what doesn't. Yeah,
that's I love that you just saidthat, and you know it goes

(01:49:50):
to your favorite book starting with WhySimon sine Yes and the Why. I
focus on that when I'm teaching publicspeaking. When people ask me about podcasting,
it's why are you doing it?You know? Why do you want
to do it? Because all ofit is a commitment. You know,
you don't just get on a stageand start speaking. I mean, it
happens, but it's a commitment topracticing that craft. It's a craft.

(01:50:13):
It's the same thing with podcasting,of blogging, whatever it is. It's
you got to know why because peopleYou've got to be consistent with it.
People want to know that they're youknow, every two weeks the Michaelspisito shows
dropping on a Wednesday, you know, and that's happening. Yes, And
to be consistent doesn't mean a certainthing. It means consistent for you.
Right. It can be a featuredThis was great. My podcast producer Alicia

(01:50:38):
Glotti of Glotti Media. She wasyou know trying to explain actually is in
a recent episode on my podcast abouthow you don't always have to go full
throttle on a podcast. You coulddo a series of podcast, you know,
episodes. It's about being intentional.Like you said, why do you
want to do this, what areyou trying to achieve? And what can

(01:51:00):
your listeners expect? It could beonce a month, it could be once
a week, it could be everytwo weeks. You choose the pattern,
the design. Is it going tobe solo episodes or with guests? What's
it going to look like? Andwhy do you want it to look that
way? And then you move forwardwith what feels right for you. And
here's the key and this is whatI love to coach the most is sustainable.

(01:51:25):
Yeah, that's sustainable. Is hugethat you can keep doing it and
that you and I love the choicein there because it just goes back to
what we were talking about earlier.Is that and you end, you know,
as a creative right, is thatyou end it when you decide to
end it, because like to yourpoint, you know, I love doing
this podcast, I love doing thisshow, but I don't know if I'm

(01:51:45):
going to do this for the nexttwenty thirty years. I don't know that
that's going to be the situation rightnow. I love it. I love
it, you know, like Icome in here, this is a passion,
right But you know, at somepoint I'm going to choose that it's
no longer and that's okay, andwe're okay with those decisions. You have
a wonderful mantra that you share withyour community, with your clients, and

(01:52:10):
that you'll be sharing with with ourcommunity now, and that is do less,
live more, breathe easier, andtake a breath with you interested in
what that mantra means to you,and it sounds like you came up with
it on your own, So I'dlove for you to share with our audience
with that mantra means. All right, So I will give another shout out

(01:52:34):
to a great expert that inspired meto do this, and Michelle Maser of
Three Word Rebellion. Actually her bookinspired me to do this, and I
was such a rebel that I decidednot to do three words, but six
words. But it's three phrases sobut really what it was about was saying,
what do you stand for? Whatare you tired of seeing in the

(01:52:55):
industry. You know what's bothering you? So often we just get caught up
and what's already there? Productivity,Oh my gosh, productivity coaches are everywhere,
and the industry was very pervasive interms of pushing a narrative forward of
hey, let's hustle and grind andget the stuff done. Let's do more
and less time. And I waslike, no, can we not?

(01:53:19):
But I still want to do things. I still want to get stuff done,
I still want to move toward mygoals. How do we reconcile this?
And I'm like, we got todo less? Man, but this
probably, But where's the more?The more is living more? It's it's
doing the right things at the righttime, the right way for you.
It is it's doing less of thestuff that doesn't work for us, the

(01:53:41):
busy work and the things that areunsatisfying, having full permission to quit and
to let go, and so theydo less live more came first, and
I was like, I need athird What is it? I was like,
And it actually that came from acouple of things that were said to
me early on in my coaching career. One was that when we get together,

(01:54:03):
one of the first things I dois calm the storm. You got
all the ideas and all the excitementand all the stress and all the what
are we going to do? AndI don't know, and I'm trying decision
fatigue and all the stuff. AndI was like, it's gonna be okay.
And then when I thought about,what is it that I can guarantee
that I can do for you?I don't want to make false claims,

(01:54:26):
but I can tell you that whenwe get together, you will breathe easier.
And that's where it came from thatI love breathe easier because it's it's
so important in everything we do inour life is to breathe. We forget
that, like we forget just breathingin conversation, you know. To relate

(01:54:48):
it back to public speaking, soright, so often, I mean honestly,
almost every week. Like so,I'm a toast master and we meet
weekly and when I if I givefeedback whenever, whenever I'm asked a question
about speaking without without filler words andwithout ms and ohs, which which are

(01:55:08):
normal, by the way, becauseI say them all the time too,
it's about breathing, I tell them, It's about take that breath, take
that pause, and in that pause, take a breath, take a you
know, breathe, and when youdo, you feel better, you fill
your lungs. And it just alsowith the hard choices we make in life
and breathing, and it really is, It's so true. I was looking

(01:55:30):
at it and I was like,I feel like you can make it three
words, by the way, LikeI feel like it can be like do
live and breathe and then like youassign your own meaning to it. But
I do love the rebellion in youof like I am, I Am not
gonna make this just three words orwhatever. It just didn't work for you,
and you're like that, I'm finewith that, man, I'm good

(01:55:50):
with it. I love it.This has just been a wonderful experience with
you. I kind of had afeeling it would be I knew to give
a shout out to Jim Pray,Yeah, vice president over at Denton Insurance
Services. Reach out to him.But yeah, Jim. Jim put us
in touch several months ago. AndI remember, I know, I was

(01:56:13):
sitting outside when he called me andtold me about you. He was just
he couldn't stop talking about how wonderfulof a person you are, how positive
you are, how polished you are, and that you have your own business
and an entrepreneur. And he goes, Michael, you gotta you gotta talk
to her. You gotta get heron your show. He's like, you
gotta get her on your show.And she's a Denten client. I said,

(01:56:34):
I said, I will, I'llreach out to her. And you
know, what a great what awhat a great referral to the show you've
been. This has just been aterrific episode. I feel I just it
just flowed so beautifully. I wantto thank you so much for coming on
today, and I got to thankJim for introducing us. Yes, thank

(01:56:55):
you, Jim. This is wherethe magic happens, in my opinion,
when you have a conversation, butwhen you have one with someone who is
fully present as you are and asgiving as you are, it can't help
but be amazing. And it's beenmy pleasure. It's been awesome. So,
of course, all of your informationwill be in our show notes,
but if you can for our audiolisteners here who may not be able to

(01:57:17):
look at those quite yet. What'sthe best ways that people can get in
touch with you, whether social mediaemail. So website will take you everywhere
you need to go. Positively Productivedot com. You are listening to an
incredible podcast right now, so ifyou want to pop over to positively Living,
I would be honored. And ifyou want to just have some fun

(01:57:41):
and see just how goofy I canget, then join me on Instagram positively
Underscore Lisa. I love it,yes, and you are very goofy.
I love it if you didn't getit from her bio of being buried under
her cat, I think that speaksvolumes right there about how silly you are,
and that is your speaker bio.So I love that you know you're
sharing that with everybody when you goout speaking. You have the professional and

(01:58:02):
the fun and it's so important tohave all of it. I also want
to give a shout out to yourwebsite where you list all of the books
that you've read or have been inspiredby and authors. I think that that's
tremendous. I'm not gonna lie Iam going to steal that idea from you.
It's so well I know, yeah, I told you that. When

(01:58:24):
you showed it to me, Iwas like, oh my goodness, I
need to get because we just haveso many great authors out there, so
many great thought leaders, so manydifferent ways that we can consume positive energy,
leadership, business acumen, just somuch. And to have a list

(01:58:45):
like what you have on your websiteis just tremendous to anybody out there that's
trying to accomplish anything, so bigshout out to you your books page.
I think people should definitely visit it, take a look at the books that
are on there. I have inmy reading lists The Ocean, the Blue
Ocean Strategy, The Blue Ocean Strategythat's next on my reading list because of
you. So I want to thankyou for that. It's been a joy

(01:59:08):
to interview you today. Thank youso much for coming on, and we'll
probably have you on again soon.I'd love it. I'd love it.
Thank you for listening to The MichaelEsposito Show. For show notes, video
clips, and more episodes, goto Michael Espositoinc. Dot com backslash podcast.
Thank you again to our sponsor,dent Ten Insurance Services, helping businesses

(01:59:30):
get the right insurance for all theirinsurance needs. Visit Denten dot io to
get a quote that's d n tN dot io and remember when you buy
an insurance policy from Denten. You'regiving back on a global scale. This
episode was produced by Uncle Mike atthe iHeart Studios in Pickipsie. Special thanks

(01:59:51):
to Lara Rodrean for the opportunity andmy team at Michael Esposito me
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