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May 29, 2025 119 mins

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What begins as a historical Western confession soon morphs into a blood-soaked supernatural tale in Stephen Graham Jones's masterpiece "The Buffalo Hunter Hunter." This story spans generations, following three narrators whose lives intertwine across time—Etsy Bukarn, a modern-day academic; her ancestor Arthur Bukarn, a Lutheran pastor in 1912 Montana; and Good Stab, an ancient Blackfeet warrior with a dark secret.

When Good Stab arrives at Arthur's remote church to offer his "confession," he unfolds a tale that challenges everything the pastor believes. Through richly textured language that gradually teaches readers the Blackfeet way of seeing the world—where buffalo are "black horns" and mountain lions are "hungry mouths"—we witness the systematic destruction of a people and their sacred relationship with the buffalo. But beneath this historical narrative lurks something more sinister.


Jones brilliantly transforms mythology into a profound metaphor for cultural survival and identity. What makes this novel extraordinary is how it seamlessly blends supernatural horror with authentic historical and cultural perspectives. Jones, himself a member of the Blackfeet Nation, creates characters of genuine moral complexity. The novel explores themes of penance, absolution, and cultural lineage without ever feeling didactic or sacrificing its pulse-pounding narrative. "The Buffalo Hunter Hunter" will haunt you long after its final page, challenging what you thought you knew about American history, horror fiction, and the stories we tell ourselves about who we really are.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Make and Pass Show and we're pretty
stoked to return to our Dog EarDialogue series.
This is, if you don't know, aseries where we review good
books.
It's much more strict than ourBrews and Reviews series,

(00:23):
because Brews and Reviews, wejust try beer and watch movies
regardless of we know it's goingto be good or not, and then we
give our takes.
We've had bad beers, we've hadbad movies, we've had excellent
beers and excellent movies, butDog Ear Dialogues, because a
book is so much more of aninvestment, we're only going to
be going over books that wereally, really enjoy, like the

(00:45):
two-thumbers yeah, like booksthat I give two thumbs up and
would recommend anyone to read,and with that we have the
Buffalo Hunter Hunter.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Did you misspeak?
Did you repeat yourself?

Speaker 1 (01:02):
No, I didn't, and it's actually my only critique
of this book.
I wish the first, I wish thesecond word wouldn't have been
hunter again, I wish it wouldhave been the like Pagani word
for hunter or you know, like thelike.
One of the funniest things Ithink is when, like I can't

(01:22):
remember, I think it was PacificRim and there was like a, there
was a mech in that called uh,jaeger Hunter, which Jaeger is
just German for hunter, um, butat least it covers it up a
little bit.
You know what I mean, and Ikind of wish that they uh would

(01:42):
have done the same.
Well, they uh, stephen GrahamJones, would have done the same
thing for the title.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Because the Buffalo.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
Hunter Hunter.
My knee-jerk reaction when Iheard about it.
I was like sounds cringe.
Sounds like anime and it'sanything, but you know what I
mean.
But anyways, the Buffalo HunterHunter kids, ken thanks for
joining us today.
Anyways, the Buffalo HunterHunter kids, ken thanks for
joining us today.

(02:07):
If you're not interested inreading or listening to books on
Audible like we do, that'stotally okay.
You can go ahead and skip tothe next episode.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Or you can also get the breakdown from us here, the
short version.
True, this will be shorter thanthe book actually.
But yeah, the title, I think itgrew on me and I liked it
because I did feel like I didknow, kind of out the gate maybe
I felt like I knew what I wasin for, which I did, which I

(02:35):
realized I was.
I wasn't completely wrong.
But there's a big piece I waswrong about like.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Did you like?
Read it after I recommended itto you.
Zero reviews, zero summaries.
You didn't read the descriptionof it or anything.
Zero descriptions, because Ididn't want to spoil it.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
I just hit download and play.
And I was like oh, let's go.
Okay, I think I know who theBuffalo Hunter Hunters.
I think I know what that is.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
I'm glad you trusted me Because I literally just came
to you one day at church.
Sorry.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
I'm also tilting this table.
I'm flipping this table.
Will your chair go down?

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Well, I don't want it to, because if it does, then
the arms don't stay under thechair I mean under the table,
and then I just am tilting backand falling backwards.
Alright, fine, I'll lower them.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Just a hair there.
We go Right there, right there.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
But anyways, I see Pat at church.
Just a hair there.
We go right there, stay rightthere, all right, right there.
Um, but anyways, I see I seepat at church.
I'm like yo, hey, I'm actuallylistening to this book right now
while I'm sitting here doingour security team at church and
stuff and making sure no onecomes to steal the kids.
And uh, I'm like I don't wantto spoil it because it totally
caught me off guard.
I had no idea what it was aboutreally.
And uh, it's a western, butit's a native american

(03:49):
confessing to a priest or apastor.
And pat was like, okay, I'llcheck it out.
So I sent him the link and hesaid, listen to it now.
And uh, I'm glad you didn'tread it because I I hope you
said the same experience I did,did I guess maybe we should be
careful before we talk about anymore of it, just to give people
the opportunity to hop outbefore we get into spoilers.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah, and we'll give like I think we have some brief,
we're going to do some briefoverview stuff, kind of some
teasers, get you more interestedif you're on the fence, and
then we'll give you a clear cut.
You know time when we're hey,we're hopping off of.
You know from, from summarizingto you know, you know synopsis
to now we're going we're goingto, uh, spoiler mode, talking
about all the stuff we liked andall the ins and outs you know,

(04:34):
maybe.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Uh, here's the thing I was really stoked on doing,
like our thumbnail and artworkfor me this episode.
Huh, I'll make it very, I'llmake it discreet, okay, all
right good, I'll make itdiscreet like little things
where it's like I feel like if Isaw the thumbnail rather than
the artwork for the cover of thebook, I'd be like oh, I think I

(04:56):
know what that's about you know, exactly.
Anyways, um, welcome, ken, asalways.
Uh, thanks for joining us.
Um, we appreciate you takingtime to hop in and listen.
Um, and, of course, if you'relistening to this, you know that
we highly recommend the buffalohunter hunter.
Uh, the buffalo hunter hunteris a novel written by stephen
graham jones.

(05:16):
Stephen graham jones is adescendant and a native american
.
Um, he is actually out here inboulder, colorado, so so pretty
close yonder to us and heteaches at csu.
He's, um, uh, he's got a chairat csu.
Oh, really, I mean at csu, atcu, um, and uh, his other

(05:41):
popular novels that people mayhave heard of is called Mongrels
and the Only Good Indians, aswell as my Heart is a Chainsaw.
Now, again, my Heart is aChainsaw.
I remember on Reddit when Ifirst saw someone suggesting
Buffalo Hunter Hunter and I sawthey're like I really never

(06:04):
liked my heart as a chainsaw,but I love buffalo hunter hunter
.
I was like, oh my gosh, thisreads like anime.
I don't think I'm gonna beinterested in this.
This sounds so cringe, um anduh.
Honestly, I I did look up moreabout stephen graham jones, or
as people call him, sjg, and um,I really think looking up who

(06:27):
he is as an author and what hewants to tell stories about is
what convinced me to to actuallygive the book a shot and like
knowing that he's native, likekind of changes like how you
read that title.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
I think too like the.
I feel like I can hear the.
I can hear like a heart behindthe title, more so than just
like being like this wasn'tmistranslated from Timu, or like
my heart is a chainsaw.
Isn't like just gonna be a?
Oh, like a weird horror bookfor like middle school girls?

Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yeah, exactly, it's like you can there's.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
I then see, like, maybe that, maybe that's, maybe
it's wrong that I'mautomatically assuming because
he's native he has a deeper,more like spiritual side, or
like, like, like, like, like,like, like, like, like, like
like sure I get what you'resaying.
I'm not trying to.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
I don't just assume that, but I do feel like native
people I know do have a likethere's more to talk about
there's more to talk about andlike they got a lot more like
that they can make a story about, because the truth is is that
they have a pretty tumultuousand unique identity right and

(07:42):
it's.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
It's not like every like.
I don't think every person outthere is walking around like
putting their hand in a puddleand like like looking up and
then saying, like, sayingsomething about, like, what
happened, it's going to rain inOregon today, right, and like
the like making, like thesethings, but I think there is a
in general, like culturally,there's a different way of

(08:06):
talking, different way ofunderstanding, different way of
you know that people engagelanguage as well, yeah, and, and
then, and that's in the way heengages the language in buffalo
hunter, hunter.
I think we see that, you knowyeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
No, I agree, and like , I think for me, when I saw
that he was the, when I got anidea from watching interviews
with him and kind of reading acouple interviews with them, I
got a better idea and I just, Itruly do believe, like there's
so many uh people telling thesame story like I, like I.

(08:38):
There's a particular bookseries I really enjoy, called
Galaxy's Edge, and it's not StarWars but it's based on like
it's like it's not Star Wars,but it's based on.
It's not even like looselyadapting Star Wars, it's like
Star Wars but with a way moregrungy, dirty, gritty, military
take on it and it's written byformer vets and stuff and it's

(09:02):
excellent.
There's probably over 20 booksof it and stuff and it's it's
excellent.
There's like probably like over20 books of it now and I've
really enjoyed it.
Um, and there's hit or misses,but most of the time it's pretty
good.
And there's also wayward galaxyand something else and
something else and somethingelse and they're all the same
story.
It's like as soon as, likegalaxy's edge wrote this thing
that took off, which was againkind of a twist on like

(09:24):
something else that alreadyexisted before it, uh,
everything else started copyingit and now, like the authors of
galaxy's edge, started thisother series called forgotten
ruin, which is like specialforces guys and essentially
dungeons and dragons, and it'sawesome.
You get to pretty much see how,like a platoon of rangers would

(09:46):
defend um uh, helms deep andit's pretty freaking metal and
it's violent and it's prettycool, uh.
And then then now there's like15 different people doing this,
like modern day warrior trappedin primitive time or age or
whatever, and they're all doingthe same series with pretty much

(10:09):
the same kind of spin-off andI'm just like, oh my gosh, it's
a bottom line.
What I'm saying is there's amillion iterations on horror,
sci-fi and like this seems likethe same thing told over and
over.
And then it seemed, when Ifound stephen graham jones and
found his work and saw what he'ssaying, he was telling stories

(10:31):
that I just haven't heard yet.
You know, I mean, and it's evenlike to add on to that I
thought buffalo hunter.
Hunter was going to be thestory of essentially, like you
know, the native american 1800s,early 1900s, red dawn right, I
was.
I was like this is going to benative american going full

(10:53):
indigenous, as you know, againmilitary term there that might
not be politically correct, butuh, but going, going native,
going native, but just likestraight up, giving it an
insanely guerrilla warfare timeto those who he sees as

(11:14):
intruding and trespassing anddestroying his way of life or
his tribe's way of life.
And so that's not necessarilywrong.
Right, but it was not thatsimple.
Yeah, it was really sick how hetook it.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
You know what I mean yeah, I just expected the um,
the story as you know, the, thestory as told from the other
side of things you know versusyou know, there's the cowboys
versus indians type of you knowthing just told from the other
side, right, sort of like youknow engagement.
But uh, um, which I was, I wasdown for excited for that too,

(11:52):
but I was that would have been agood book, at the end of its
own right, exactly.
But then I was wrong, and soyeah, and so, yeah, anyways,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
So this book takes place in 2012.
The book is I would say it'sStephen Graham Jones' magnum
opus is what a lot of people aresaying it's his masterpiece.
As Etsy Bocarn begins readingthe PDF transcriptions she's

(12:27):
receiving of hergreat-great-great-grandfather's
journal from 1912.
And then we kind of get theflashback to our other narrators
, back in 1912, where we haveGood Stab, who is a Pagani,
blackfeet Indian, confessing orsharing.

(12:49):
He says it's a confession, butit's mostly a life story and
he's sharing that with thepastor, this Lutheran pastor,
arthur Bocarn.
Etsy's great, great, greatgrandfather book horn, etsy's
great, great great grandfather,um, and I gotta say, before we
dive into the non-spoilersummary, I just want to shout
out the voice actors, becauseall the voice actors I've looked

(13:12):
up, um, and uh, I thought theyall did really, really, really
good.
Um, there was a way.
So shane ghost keeper is thenarrator for good stab and shane
ghost keeper I guess, uh, he'sa musician.
Um, he's a native american andhe's also acted in a couple

(13:35):
shows and things like that, butit seems mostly excuse me, oh my
gosh, y'all crept up right onme.
It seems like he's mostly beendoing like audible narrations as
well as his own, like kind offreelance musician work, but he
narrates Ghost Stab in a waythat just feels like I'm right

(14:00):
there, like when I'm walking mydog or driving my car, or like
taking a shower, going to bedand I'm listening to good step
tell a story.
I forgot that I'm listening toa book.
It really did feel to me like Iwas listening to a recording of,
like someone confessingsomething.
You know, it felt very welldone and I think that's in a lot
of part to Stephen GrahamJones's writing, uh, but I

(14:22):
thought Shane Ghostkeeper did agood thing, because even when
Shane Ghostkeeper does accentsor impersonations, it really
sounds to me like the way you'dhear a native American person
impersonating non nativeAmericans, right, and it.
It was really really well doneand he had, he had enough
emotion and it that you stillhad this clear image of a very

(14:46):
reserved, very haunted nativeAmerican man.
But also, like you believe, theemotion is hurt, or pain, or
sadness, um, or excitement, uh,which I feel like is very hard
to do to an audience, right,when they can't see and you have
to kind of be the stereotypical, almost like presentation of

(15:09):
the stoic warrior Indian, youknow.
So I thought I thought he did areally good job, um, and then,
uh, marin Ireland.
She's in a couple of things,she's in a lot of horror movies
as like a background supportingactress.
Uh, I really liked her in theempty man, um, and then I think
I also saw, oh yeah, the darkand the wicked, um, but she is

(15:31):
etsy.
She does a good job.
I think she really provides aconvincing performance and
attitude, especially at thepoints where we step out of a
document you know, out of out ofthe book, and it's actually a,
an audio recorder and she'snarrating to an audio recorder

(15:51):
and it really does sound likeshe's recording what she's doing
in the moment.
Um, so, and that shows like herability to do a really great
like performance of fear oranxiety, rather than just like a
reading off of a, like a scriptor page um.
And then owen um, owen teal mostpeople will know him as um.

(16:17):
He was a blackthorn, uh, thenight's watch.
Uh, not commander, but one ofthe Night's Watch, not commander
, but one of the Night's Watch.
In Game of Thrones, he's theone who gave Jon Snow a hard
time calling him a bastard.
The bastard Snow, but he playsArthur Bukharin in this and he's

(16:39):
excellent, I think.
I think the performance, Ithink his performance is the
best one.
Excellent, I think I think theperformance.
I think his performance is thebest one.
I genuinely feel the uh, theself not deprecating but self
punishing, and like, uh,hauntedness of a, of a pastor

(17:03):
that truly has become a man whofully and wholly believes in
jesus christ as his lord andsavior and believes in god's
calling for us, as you know,people on earth, uh, while also
like beginning to remember whohe was before in that previous

(17:23):
life and is grievously likehaunted by it.
Um, and so I think all theperformances are really well
done.
I also think that, uh, on thatnote, owen teal also like when
he's talking about food, Igenuinely see the starving,
mouth wateringly, like hungry,poor pastor in the middle of
montana.

(17:43):
Like every line about food hereally makes me believe like
this is a man who's honestlyconfessing his love for cake and
eggs and sausage and jams andis not a man reading what an
author wrote you know what Imean like it's just like the way
they acted.
It made you forget that this isa book and this is.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
It really did feel like an actual uh audio, like
recording of, like an honestacting at the time oh yeah, I
was totally drawn into it and,like the like you're saying it
was the book for me flew bylistening to it and it uh, you
were done with it before I was.
When it was over.
I was, I was so bummed becausethen I knew, whatever I listened

(18:29):
to next just was not gonna be,it was just gonna be back to
like audible guy voice yeah youknow, versus like and and not to
be also the author plus the,the voice actors in here just
was like um, yeah, it told Icould just sit there and listen
to it, listen to it, and it feltlike I was sitting there
listening to the story.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
Really yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yeah, and so the I'm going to give my teaser just for
this little.
This little you've, you've hitsome of these points.
I'm going to just give forthose of you who want to get out
, or, if you're still on thefence, you're going to keep
listening.
I'm going to give you just thelittle non-spoiler intro summary
.
And so the novel is set in theAmerican West.
It spans multiple generationsand it begins at a university

(19:18):
research center that holds ajournal from 1912 that was found
in the walls of a historicalLutheran church in Miles City,
montana, in 2012, where EtsyBukarn reads the transcription
of the journal's chronicles.

(19:38):
And as readers, we encounter thethree individual accounts of
this book.
And the discovered journalgives the account of the
preacher and his daily thoughtsand goings on, but it also
records a testimony of an oldBlackfeet native man called
Goodstab, and Goodstab comes tothe preacher to give a quote
confession and over thepreceding months and at multiple

(20:02):
encounters, goodstab recountsthe tales of his past, his
people, his homeland.
And as we're swept into thisstory, we learn that maybe this
book isn't what we expected itto be from the title, and the
author, Stephen Graham Jones,takes us into a piece of even

(20:23):
his own people's history, with aspin and he engages and invites
us to see the American Westthrough this wider lens that
doesn't shy away from violence,tragedy, heartache and
especially the loss of a placewhere you know, mighty Buffalo,
once roamed you know mightybuffalo once roamed.

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, honestly, uh, if, if there's one thing, real
world, that I take out of this,it's that the next time I'm
going up in past the foothillshere in colorado to pass those
herds, I'm gonna take a moment,I'm gonna pull over and I'm
gonna watch and just like takeit in, because it is crazy to me
that we still have, you know,american buffalo that are alive.
Uh, especially when you listento this story and you're just

(21:13):
like holy smokes, like, and Iget it, I I've heard a hundred
times right from, like you know,different stuff in class or
school, right, but it just youjust don't listen to it or
believe it until, like you canhave a very sincere telling of
the, the stories of how theytried to eradicate the buffalo

(21:33):
in order to starve out nativeamericans and those numbers
going from estimated 30 to 60million down to we got all the
way down to 300 in the us, yeah,which is insane yeah, and it
was just.
You know, I remember seeing likeimages of like the piles of the

(21:54):
of the bones, and just beinglike gobsmacked by that.
But all I said I like hearing,hearing it in this story.
I truly do think like I'm gonnastop and smell the roses and
like try to appreciate thatanimal for what it is the next
time I get to like look at thembecause also, like I would say,

(22:14):
99 of americans have never seena buffalo in person, right, yeah
like a real american buffalothat's probably true and I feel
like you and I probably take itfor granted, because what, twice
, three times a year, we driveby like the biggest herd in
america, right, um?
so, anyways, all right, that'syour, uh, that's your warning.

(22:35):
If you're interested and, uh,you don't want the book spoiled,
dip out, come back and watchthis later.
Um, that's the only thing thatwe really say, that for you know
what I mean, because wegenuinely think these books are
great and worth the experienceon your own.
Um, but if you're, uh, if youalready listened to the book,
excellent, thanks for joining ushere.
And if you're like, spoil itfor me, because I can't handle

(22:59):
scary and I'll listen to itafterwards.
Great, happy you're here.
Um, but, pat, let's crack openour beers, all right.
Ironically, pat found fromanchorage brewing company a beer
called till next time, which isthe sign off that pat, uh, and
occasionally me always gives atthe end of this podcast, and it

(23:22):
looks pretty metal.
Uh, it's got a witch doctor anda skeletal knight cheering
beers together.
Kind of black plaguey.
Yeah, very, very like grim,dark, medieval black plague.
The ingredients are water, hops, malt and yeast.
So it's probably going to be apretty.
I'm not.
I'm gonna bet it's not gonnahave a citrusy, I bet it's to be

(23:44):
a pretty.
I'm going to bet it's not goingto have a citrusy.
I bet it's going to be a prettyhoppy IPA Triple.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
IPA oh, triple Garrett 10%.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
Cool, cool, oh.
Brewed with Citra Incognito, oh, so it probably will have some
citrus.
We will see Anywhoos.
Here we go, crack in the can.
I'm pretty stoked.
We will see Any who's here wego, crack in the can.
I'm pretty stoked.
We need a new mini fridge,because I left these in the mini
fridge for like 45 minutes andthey're still about 60 degrees.

(24:16):
I like it Way way, way moretame than I thought it was going
to be for a triple IPA.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
Me too, it was like I'm not putting it on this level
, but if I close my eyes andsomeone, it was like, hey, this
is a triple IPA from True, I'mnot saying it's that good, but
just as far as on the tamefactor, on the tame factor, and
we're not doing a full bruisingreview tonight.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
We'll give you the mini.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
I'm not reviewing this beer at all.
Yeah, we're just giving you themini.
Do the quick.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
You know we're telling you about it, but um,
it's got an odd and almost atfirst tastes like I'm drinking
like pineapple juice out of the,out of the cans.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
You know it's like pineapple juice force from new
belgium, kind of like that.
Yeah it it is.
That's the thing people havebeen on right now.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
The aftertaste, though maybe it's just because
of my dinner.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
No, it's that little spicy it is, isn't it A little
spicy on the back, yeah?

Speaker 1 (25:18):
Because it tastes to me a little bit like the
sandwich I had, which had spicysauce.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
It's like that dry chili spice.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
That's no Okay.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
Right, so it is there yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
I was like I taste my jalapenos that were on my
sandwich.
It's like a pineapple jalapenokind of taste.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yeah, I like this one .

Speaker 1 (25:37):
I like it too, it's pretty good yeah.
Definitely caught me off guard.
All right Going, tell me offguard.
All right Going into the book.
Pat, as usual, introduce us tothe characters.
Oh yes, character corner.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
Yes, yes.
So you know we've gone intothese.
You know there was a lot ofcharacters throughout the book.
I picked just five for us tokind of break down.
There's others we might bringup and briefly talk about, but
you know Etsy Bukarn, hercharacter's set in modern day.
She's an academic.
Was she a teacher, a professor?

(26:13):
She had like a fellowship orsomething to research.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
She is a professor, yeah, but she didn't have tenure
at University of Wyoming.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
Yeah, she was trying to get her tenure and so she was
on the cusp of that um and theysay you have to be published if
you're going to get tenure,right, right, and so she was,
and it's a big part of thisstory was she was kind of
thinking about, you know, thiscould have been her big break,
this could have been her tenure.
You know this is a story, quitequite the story, you know, um

(26:41):
and so um her, you know, I thinkthat not a super dynamic or in
depth character there's.
There's some depth there to herand at the, at the end of the
story, she, she grows becausereally we encounter at the
beginning and then we reallyencounter her at the end, very
end, of the story and she doesdevelop, but she is more.

(27:05):
She's the vessel for this beingdelivered in modern times and
for the conclusion of the storyto come full circle.
Um, I thought her character was.
It was good, but I do think itwas, you know, just the um, uh,
yeah, really that the, themethod to which to transport the

(27:25):
story.
And the author even said, Ithink, in his acknowledgments,
was that he originally didn'thave her in the end with the
final pieces and the finalscenes as kind of the, with her
final kind of hero scenes.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, he said something along the lines of
like Etsy, where did you comefrom?
In his acknowledgments at theend of the book, because he just
didn't foresee that being thepackage.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
And I think he had her kind of at the beginning, is
just thing.
But then like, oh, this, youknow it's for the final
conclusion there, but um, soyeah, her character is key.
But you know, you know, for forme I just took her as that
vessel and helped her conclusion.
And then we've got ArthurBucarn, and he's German, right,

(28:13):
you're like is German, french,french-german?
It's like, yeah, the last nameis French, but German ancestry
Yep yep and he's American andhe's referred to in the book by
Goodstab as three persons and heeventually kind of starts to
refer to himself as threepersons at times.
Well, I, mean all thosechapters he self-references,

(28:36):
probably backdated as theabsolution of three persons
Right, right and so, and I waswondering, you know, is that
just a straight reference to theTrinity and or is that into the
three people he was in thisstory?
I think it's both.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
Because Goodstab also was three people.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
Right, yep, exactly, and as Arthur went through his
phases, he was three differentpeople throughout the book.
And the person we encounter thebook, um, um and the the the
person we encounter the most is,you know that, the Lutheran
preacher in uh in Montana 1912.
Um, we learned that he was aformer soldier and uh,

(29:18):
eventually he turns into agroundhog.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
He turns it.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
There's this so for those of you who haven't read
this now.
Now, if we spoiled that for you, you might just be like what
are you talking about?

Speaker 1 (29:30):
Hold on.
So there's an old school horrormovie I was looking for just
now.
It's not old school, it's likeearly 2000s, late 90s maybe, and
it was made for like TV.
I'm pretty sure.
Oh yeah, 90s maybe, and it wasmade for like tv.
I'm pretty sure.
Oh yeah, but it's about hisgiant mole rat in this town and
this guy goes around americakilling these giant mole rats.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
Huh and so, yeah, for those of you listening who
haven't read it, but you'rewondering what that's going on
um, yeah, there's, it's kind ofthere's some pieces to this
story that, um, yeah, there'ssome pieces to this story that

(30:36):
kind of it goes supernatural onus.
You know European myths, likesome Transylvanian type myths.
You know it's interesting towatch him develop throughout the
story because he goes from whenwe meet him.
He's just this kind of peacefulpreacher man, but he develops
in this backwards way as welearn who he was and we kind of

(30:56):
come to see, you know why he'sbeen titling his journal entries
as the absolution of threepersons, and because he does
carry this weight, or why doeshe love food so much?
Maybe it's because of a timewhen he was starving and he made
the worst decision of his wholelife because he was hungry and
cold, you know.
And and then, all the way intohis final form of, you know,

(31:24):
this kind of as someone who wasmaybe seeking, uh, you know, a
penance via being a, a preacher,eventually finds his final
penance on earth as being alowly creature that's belly
crawls across the ground, um andum, and so he, uh, he has his,

(31:49):
um, his three persons that he isthroughout this book.
Yeah, you find the naked molerat movie.
No, I'm still looking for it,oh man, but keep don't worry
about it, I'll keep.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
I'll keep on looking, I'll keep on looking, excuse me
.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
And so next, character-wise, you know, we
have Good Stab.
He's already been mentioned afew times.
His given name at birth wasWeasel Plume and then it was
changed to Good Stab.
After, when he was about 12years old, he was in a hunting

(32:47):
party and the older men went outto hunt and they had captured a
soldier and the soldier waschoking him out.
He, uh, he grabbed a weapon.
He grabbed an arrow that he hadplaced in the ground and he
swung it behind him and he droveit through the man's eye and
killed him, and so his dad gavehim a new name that day, which
was good stab, and he kind ofearned his stripes that day as a
man and uh, and that was nowhis name.
His name later on becomes takesno scalps, um and um.

(33:12):
We'll get into probably more oflike why his name is that and
what happened, and and the storyof why he became takes no
scalps, um.
When he would kill people, um,he would, he would take other
things from them.
And um, he was born.
The story, you know, the storyin the journal said in 1912, but
he was born around 1820.
So by the time he'sencountering the preacher.

(33:34):
He's about 90 years old but hedoesn't look a day over 40.
He doesn't look that old um.
And so the um, which is maybe alittle more telling of you know
as what this story moved intoand what it became, and Goodstab
, I think definitely my favoritecharacter of the book.

(33:57):
Goodstab is the I think themain character, you know for
sure, and the.
It's interesting because heusually this type of character
you're not um, you're notrooting for you're not rooting
for and you could.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
You could spoil it.
Man, you know you're thecharacter introductory.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
I know, but I'm, I'm, I just want to get.
We'll get to it on the nextcharacter.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
Okay no full blood, yeah, um oh no, the cat man yeah
, from the cat man.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
So, um, but the um as uh with his, with his
transformation, as through hisdifferent names, and as he
becomes this, it's just, it'sinteresting to watch and root

(34:49):
for.
I think his character was donereally well, written well, and I
didn't necessarily think he wasa good man or a bad man.
He had good attributes and badattributes, just as Arthur
Bucarn had.
He was a good man and he was abad man.
You know, shri Bukharan had.
He was a good man and he was abad man.
You know, and I think that, um,the author really pulls and
ties the tension there, um, well, between, in some ways, like

(35:11):
there are there are moral, um,there's absolute, you know, uh,
moral things and not notrelative morality, but there are
areas where a man can be manydifferent things and can engage
in many different things.
And so then we have the Catman.
The Catman shows up in thebeginning of the story with a

(35:43):
when Goodstab and his band isout going around on.
They are, they're trying tocover up a war party, or kind of
an attack.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
First they're hunting right they were.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
They were hunting at first, but then they're also
part of their job was to also,as they're out and about hunting
their jobs also to um, kind ofcover up if and when soldiers or
settlers are killed.
And because also the group hewas a part of was men without
families who were going outdoing this because he had lost

(36:16):
his good stab, his wife and kidwere killed by, I think, a rival
tribe.
But then they find this man ina cage who looks like a cat.
Killed Kids were already dead,yeah, by I think a rival tribe.
Tribe killed him, yeah, butthen they find this man in a
cage who looks like a cat and hethe cat man.
What did I think that I kind ofwish there was more of the cat

(36:37):
man.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
In some ways.
Okay, it's interesting you saythat, because I felt that way
too, until he came back, andthen I was like, oh sick, I'm
getting more of the Catman.
And then you get even more ofhim and like you realize the
Catman.
No matter how villainous othercharacters are, the Catman is
like beyond villainous.
The Catman is like a boredSatan.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
He wants to be entertained.
He is what this characteralways is.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
The uh, what for to I ?

Speaker 1 (37:10):
I need you that was pretty good and he talks about
his uh accent in there, ifpeople saw that movie they would
know what you're talking about.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Yeah, and so the Catman we learn is oh, I was, I
would always I to say the wordor not.
I didn't want to say the worduntil now or later.
Just because they only say theword once in the whole book, do
they say vampire Just once,really, at the very end.
It says vampire at the very end, who she does Really.

(37:42):
I was surprised.
I thought they were never goingto say it and then he did.
I wonder if he shouldn't havesaid it.
But uh, the cat man we learn isa vampire.
Um, and you know, it's 450 yearold vampire.
Yeah, I think it is.
You know, basically, it wouldassume he is the original.
Yeah, and the way he talksabout it, right yeah, and, and

(38:03):
it's he's definitely.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
You know they did such a good job, because even
when he's first described,you're like what, what is going
on?
And it's like for me whenthey're talking about you know
the Because?
When did you learn Scenarioaround dude?
The moment they were like Crossis hanging on his cage, I was
like, oh, that's when you knewhe was a vampire.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
Oh my like crosses hanging on his cage.
I was like, oh, that's when youknew it was a vampire.
Oh my god, what um.
And I didn't know it was avampire until, um, at the end of
that battle, when good stepbecame a vampire when he was, he
fell on good stab and wasdrinking him or his blood was
going into him.
Yeah, that's like, oh, he's avampire, yeah, you know.
And so we're like I'm likeyou're like an hour into the
book or whatever, at this pointor hour and a half into the book
, and now you're like, oh, thisis taking a turn.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
Now, this is not what I, what I thought um anyways,
uh, yeah, I, I, I really likethe cat man because when it's
presented it's not overtlyobvious.
You know, good, stab doesn'tsay like, and it was what you
germans would call a vampire youknow what I mean he's like.
He describes him with featureshe can most closely compare them

(39:12):
to, and that is even a partlater on which is cool and we'll
talk about later, but it's it'sa part that makes author buchan
not believe him.
Arthur's like, please, goodstep.
I know that Native Americanshave no idea what a house feline
is.
They wouldn't describe a manwith feline teeth as a cat man.

(39:33):
Why not describe him as a bigmouth man like you do?
And that's what you call themountain lion.
And so it was just one of thosethings where I found that was
like.
And so it was just one of thosethings where I found that was
like.
Wow, the dichotomy of like thehow I convey and describe this
thing based on my own people'slanguage and understanding,
without those myths, and thenalso like how that works against

(39:58):
you rather than just being likeyou know Dracula Exactly.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
He let it unfold for us so well that way and that's
why it was so fun to have itread that way, and I think
speaking of that too is a goodpart to just break and talk real
quick about the language theauthor used and how he taught us
a language throughout the bookin his own way.

(40:23):
No, we can't speak.
You know the words that weresaid, but um, the there's a,
there's lots of um native words,or the way in the the people
would have said um you knowinstead of you know.
One of the big example would belike instead of Buffalo, they
called them black horns, right,and um.

(40:44):
What I think was interestingwas we learned this language and
there's a part later on in thebook where um good stab is he's
learning to speak uh english andfrom somebody from uh noppy.
And who's this noppy?
Is this um?

Speaker 1 (41:03):
kind of-.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
Yeah, kind of mythical Trickster.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
Native American god.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah, like a, probably like a, you know, I
don't know if they have tears,but it's like, you know, like a
tier two god type, you know,like.
You know kind of like the NotOdin, but Loki, right, right,
right, right.
And so Goodstab says, you know,he would be saying these words,
he would be speaking, and thenhe would say it again, but with

(41:31):
the English word for it, andthen he would say it again, and
then he'd stop and go back andforth and say it this way and
that way.
And that's how I learned thislanguage.
And I wonder if the author knew, as he put that in, that he had
also, at this point in the book, he had taught us a language
where I'd written down, kind ofall these, some of these words,
because I just liked them.
You know, just like the,because when I read the first,

(41:53):
the first chapter, I was so loston what is he talking about.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
You know, like the Pagani like, and I was kind of
like okay, that's like, that'slike wait, how do I say it?

Speaker 2 (42:02):
The, the Napiqua, napiqua.
Yeah, the Napiqua came and I'mlike, oh, the Napiqua, is that
another?

Speaker 1 (42:08):
tribe.
What tribe is?

Speaker 2 (42:09):
that this bad tribe, the Napiqua is the white man and
the Pagani is the natives, theblackhorns Small robes Pagani
are small robes.
That was their clan.
The Pagani small robes wastheir sub-clan family.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
Oh, I thought.
No, I think Pagani is theactual.
Small robes Like Blackfeet areseparate than Pagani.
It's like Blackfeet'soverarching, but Pagani's the
small robe clan.
It's the small robe clan, Ithink so.
I looked it up and I thinkPagani is the self-name for the

(42:45):
pagan Blackfeet.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
Because there's like three.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
Blackfeet tribes and the pagan.
Blackfeet are, like, mostclosely associated with the
Pagani?
I don't know.
Yeah, I'll say this.
The massacre that occurs in thebook to Goodst stabs tribe is
based off of the pagan, which isnot not the anglo-pagan term,

(43:12):
right, but it's like the tribename for the sub-tribe in the
black feet pagan.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Okay, it makes sense.
And then you know these words,like prairie runner, huh.
It's like, huh, what's that?
And then it's like, as theyexplain, oh, that's an antelope.
Obviously you know the, thelong legs, the elk and the, the
backbone, the mountain range andthe, the sand hills, is
paradise.
The, yeah, um.

(43:37):
The, the mini shots gun, youknow, and the grease shooter you
know.
And the real meat what do youmeat?

Speaker 1 (43:43):
What do you think the big mouths and hungry mouths
were in Sticky Mouths and thelittle big mouths, the little
big mouths.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
I think those are coyotes, Coyotes big mouths or
wolves.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
Sticky Mouths, I think, are wolverines, because
they used to be native up intoMontana, and then I think the
hungry mouths, or whatever, aremountain lions.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think you're right, you know,
and then, yeah, so they had allthese names.
And then what was the one forthe rabbit, the?

Speaker 1 (44:16):
oh, um what was it tall ears, not tall.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Tall ears was a let's like it wags.
Its tail was a deer no, wagsits tail.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
I think is goat, a goat, oh.
And you know what?
It is a deer, because a littlewhite tail.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
That's why I thought it was a goat I was like what
has a little white tail?

Speaker 1 (44:32):
yeah, no, you're right.
Uh, wags his tail is a deer.
Uh, tall ears are donkeys ormules, yeah um fast runner fast
runner, is it?

Speaker 2 (44:43):
yeah, is it?
You know?

Speaker 1 (44:45):
which is like a personal thing for good stab.
You know, he believed his.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
His fast runner guided him and so there's all
these little words like this inthe book, right?

Speaker 1 (44:55):
and at the first.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
The first time you're reading through, you're
listening to the chapter, you'relike I don't know what the
hell's going on, and then by theend, I knew it.
I knew it all I saw, I knewwhat they were, I knew what
those words meant they werehitting me and like, and hitting
me even, and like I feltconnected to it, you know, and
so I really I thought that was areally cool way to pull this
language together.

(45:16):
Oh yeah, um 100, agree with youyou know, and so then, you know,
for my final character that Iwas going to mention was a black
horn, himself named WeaselPlume, and he was.
Was it he or she?
It was a he, yeah, it was a he.
And he was a white buffalonamed Weasel Plume, which was

(45:38):
Goodstab's original.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Name as a child.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
Uh-huh original name as a child uh-huh and so uh.
Well, I think we'll talk aboutweasel plume later too, and how
that developed, but those arekind of the main characters and
the things and that got that gotto me a little.
You know, I was like man, sonof a, I had to go back and
listen.
I was like, oh my god, whatjust happened, you know.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
So I think the thing that was interesting to me was
so much of the dichotomy betweenas well like with those animals
and like what was clearly not.
The native animals, like horses, don't have a name.
They're horses, but that'sbecause they were brought over,

(46:21):
and the name that the nativeAmericans have for him is the
name that was given to him.
They do have white horns.
Well, white horns, yeah, theydo call yeah for cattle, but I
don't know if white horns werebrought over too or if there
were also cows.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
They were brought over, they were, they were.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
I didn't know if there was cows in existence on
the newfound land.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
I was wondering if he just didn't have a different
name, a different name for horseout the gate, just for clarity
or not.
Because I just listened to thatfirst chapter again to like
kind of recenter.
But I was wondering about thattoo, because there are other
animals too where they justrefer to them as what they are.
Then they have their littlenames, or not.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
Yeah, no, it was super good and I also really
found totally enraptured in thatlanguage and I think it's
because, excuse me, right after,like each of those chapters
where we learn more and more ofthe history and cultural words
and their significance toGoodsab in his confessions, we

(47:24):
get Arthur Bocarn's reflectionon those words and his in like,
analyzing, and honestly he evensays like I find myself using
these words and writing aboutthe black horns rather than the
buffalo, and writing about thewhite horns in their milk rather
than uh, longhorn cows.
Right and like.
It's just one of those thingswhere you see it, what's what's

(47:49):
happening in your own mind, inyour own subconscious, happening
to a character in the book, andit's very reinforcing, um
anyways, yeah, and we're like inthe european thing is the, the,
you know the, the binomiallatin?

Speaker 2 (48:02):
you know, we're just, we're just categorizing, it
doesn't matter, just just stickit in this category.
Yeah, right, and then for thenatives it was a names matter.
Just like the fact that yourname changed throughout your
life names really mattered, andso it's like just pulling that
string through there yeah, andit's yeah, you're right, you're
right.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
Um, all right, hopping into, uh, the key points
and themes here, right?
Um, I think the the key themesI got.
I got five key themes that Ithink are, you know, emphasized
throughout the novel.
Right, and then we'll hop.
We'll hop into key pointsbecause I want to spend more
time on the key points of thenovel rather than like the

(48:46):
themes.
The first theme is the easiestone, I think, to skim off the
surface and you could probablypull it off of just
understanding the concept of thebook.
It's like this is going to talkabout the rise and fall of
people, the rise and fall ofnations, and how a rising nation
is growing because it's wateredwith the blood blood of the

(49:07):
previous one and a fallingnation is growing because it's
watered with the blood of theprevious one and a falling
nation is falling because it'sbeing drowned in its own blood.
And this book certainly isabout that, like this is.
So a lot of people I saw saythat this is America's story and
I don't think I entirely agreewith that Right, and I don't

(49:28):
think I entirely agree with thatright, because I think there's
so many facets of America andthat there's a lot of different
places and times where the storyof America was different in its
own not great way, but I can'tsay like that.
This itself is the story ofAmerica.
This is certainly a story thatcould be told in many different

(49:52):
places at a certain time inAmerica, right, and I think it's
a very key part of America'shistory uh, more of a window
into how the like greatexpansive, um what was, what was

(50:14):
the term?
Manifest destiny was designedto drown the like people,
nations, um, in their own bloodor in the blood of, like their
culture.
Right, it's.
It's like you know what?
They just keep on eating thisbuffalo.
Let's just kill all the buffalo.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
And let's poison it so that way they can't even eat
it and nothing can eat it andthey just have to sit out there
and rot and there can be likethere's nothing they can do with
it, and it was pretty crazy tosee that demonstrated.
And it's again like this is notgoing deep.
I'm not going deep on this.
If people who are like, oh mygosh, if they're rolling their

(50:55):
eyes because they're like I'veheard this a million times in a
million different stories, youhave right, but I, I personally
think this one was far more wellwritten because it felt very
personal and I say that as itfelt personal because the
character of a christian pastorwas very believable to me.
There was not a single misstepand arthur buchor buchorin's uh

(51:19):
interpretation of his faith orinterpretation of god's will, in
my eyes, I can't.
I can't remember one time wherearthur even blamed god for
anything like arthur never evenblamed god when the the church
was full of the corpses ofpeople in town or like, and
every horror movie has a priestright a priest in a crisis of

(51:42):
faith it's always a crisis isalways like a trash yeah, he's
always, he's always shitty, it'slike.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
this underlines it.
And while Arthur has a past youknow of, you know being a part
of a massacre, he's not.
Yeah, the author didn't use himas, like that, standard trope.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
And that's why it's so good, especially as someone
who is a I would say, a verystrong believer um a very strong
non-denominational right I'mnot catholic, um, and so like I
read this and I'm like dude, myman, like arthur, I empathize
with you.
I empathize with your ownreflection on your sin and I
also empathize with your view ofgod and how you see like,

(52:30):
especially this like he.
There's never a moment wherearthur judges another man or
woman like there and like we'regetting the inner workings of
arthur's mind.
There's never a moment wherehe's like that dirty whore or
that festering drunk or thiswicked dirty Indian, like all of

(52:50):
his characterizations of peopleare like these are God's
children and even though myheart is weak and by weak he
means like tired and just wantsto rest or just wants to eat a
sandwich.
He's like the least I can do islisten to them.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
And there's even a scene in the book where he's
stumbling drunk through the pews.
Yeah right that you know likebut, but like that didn't feel
disingenuous to like.
I feel like with so many shows,movies, books that just want to
totally crap on the whole thing, yeah, it was respectful of it
and which I appreciate as wellas like, and I'm okay with

(53:30):
engaging the humanity of apreacher and his shortcomings,
but it just but, and then theway it was done, it it felt
authentic to the way that ahuman would be.
who's walking out their faiththat way?

Speaker 1 (53:42):
Yeah, yeah.
So I guess, all that said, whenI, when I see that side and how
well that is written, and Ialso see the other side of this.
That is like the, theconfession and retelling of the
people's history and whatoccurred to them and being a
witness to it, um, it has morevalidity.
It has more worth because I can, I can sit there and be like

(54:04):
you know what they're notcheapening.
It has more worth because I cansit there and be like you know
what they're not cheapening.
The author, the writer, is notcheapening and shitting on my
empathy like what I canempathize with, what I can
relate to and understand in myown real day in life.

(54:24):
He's being very honest with itand it feels like he's making a
very great effort, even if he'snot a believer which I don't, I
have no idea Right but if he'snot a believer, he's made great
efforts to know what a believerbelieves and their view, even in
the midst of like fear or guiltwhatever, and so I have a huge

(54:45):
respect for him in that way,which makes me very much trust
everything he's saying on theother side and other Native
American tribes and just whatwas done to them Never felt like

(55:07):
I was getting reamed over thehead with like you bad white
person, don't you feel bad forwhat your ancestors did?
If anything, it felt like beArthur, the least you can do
right now that God asked of youis to sit in this pew and listen
and honestly, I think that'swhy I was so receptive to it and
that's why I also say it to itand that's why I also say like

(55:28):
it's about the rise and fall ofnations, it's not about the you
should feel bad for what Americadid.
I don't know.
Maybe we should ask SGJ and askhey man, did you want us to
like feel bad, or were you justlike wanting us to shut up and
listen, like, see it for what itwas.
Yeah, because, I'll be honest, Inever once felt bad.
I never felt like, ooh, mickshould feel guilty for this and

(55:50):
Pat should feel bad for this.
So I'm going to tell Pat tolisten to this.
You know what I mean.
I was like this is important.
This feels like a veryauthentic, honest telling of
this and I feel like I'mlearning a lot in the wrapping
of it being partly asupernatural story, right, and I
, uh, wrapping of it beingpartly a supernatural story,
right, um, and I've I reallyfeel like I took a lot away and

(56:10):
learned a lot, and I I've beenreflecting on a lot of it
outside of its supernaturalwrapping.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
Right Cause he, he did.
He took the, the platform of avampire story.
You know as kind of the thefoundation in a sense, or the
stage, was a vampire story andthen a building ability.
He, building upon that, he wasable to tell greater, bigger
stories, which also, if youactually go back in time and

(56:36):
maybe look at even like vampirestories, would be like.
Why was it?
Why were they telling a storyabout that you like around, like
plague or issues or like youknow?
or even like any old storiesheaven, hell religion, yeah,
things that actually like engagedeeper thought.
Right, it's not just about,like, bloody gory, violence, all
these things as it has become,that in many ways, and like this

(56:57):
story is very violent, bloodygory, but I didn't to the
violence, blood and gore aspectof this thing.
I never like.
There was never a scene where Iwas like, uh, put off by the
violence.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
It just felt the only time I was put off was
definitely with when he wasdescribing the what when good
said was recounting the time henot, no, not the ice chamber.
The time when he killed likeover 25 uh fur trappers in one
night, oh yeah.

(57:31):
And the when he went to go doit.
The first thing he caught themdoing was raping one of their
young skin boys.
Yeah and it was just like oneof those things.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
I was like holy shit, like this is fucking dark right
like yeah, yeah, and I get whyhe's killing all of them.
Right, I kill them all too.
I wasn't desensitized to it,but I even in that scene I
wasn't like this is just overthe top, for no reason no, yeah,
I didn't feel that way either,but it was, it was pretty.
That was easily the hardest partfor me to like listen to for
sure, yeah, and so it engagedthe violence and darkness and

(58:04):
evil.
But yeah, how so many horrormovies are just like, well, that
was just uncalled for this waseverything in this was called
for.
I think to a point you knowdude.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
Uh, on that note too, do you have a favorite kill?
Because I definitely have oneor two.
Um, I think in the tent there'sa moment where he talks about
how he puts his he.
He swings his hand down withsuch force, uh-huh, at the top
of a dude's head that he breakshis wrist and forearm, oh yeah,

(58:36):
but he breaks the man's skull inhalf, yeah, from like top of
the skull down to the belly.
Yeah, it like literally flaysthe guy open to the point where
he can see the man behind him.
Yeah, and I'm like that that isawesome, the fact that the
reason it was so cool to me,because I was like he talked

(58:56):
about how his arm was literallybroken from it in like in
tattered ruins, which is justsomething that you don't get
like.
You see, like the over the topsuper strong vampire that can
just like chop people in halfwithout breaking a sweat.
It's like no, no, no, it's justthat he doesn't, he can, he can
push his body further, it'sstill going to break but he can

(59:18):
push it further because thatthat pain tolerance is so much
higher.
Yeah, I just remember that one.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
Being so visceral, I was like holy, smoly dude that
was insane and it wasn't a kill,but it was an image I saw like
because I did.
The whole time I was listeningto this I was like god, this
would be a way better movie thannesferatu, except it'd be
impossible to make you know whatI was thinking?

Speaker 1 (59:39):
huh, I wasn't thinking it was a better movie
than us.
I thought it was going to be abetter show than fourth season
of true detective oh yeah, ohwell, yeah, that's definitely
that.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
But, like you know, yeah, the um, I was thinking the
whole time.
I was thinking like man, thiswould be a sweet movie.
It would be so hard with allbooks, you know it's hard to
capture.
But the scene I saw I was likethis would be like in the
trailer was um, um, he's uh,swinging weasel plume skull back

(01:00:10):
behind him as a war club.
So like you know, picture adude, you know, and I could
picture it's an upward shotangle, you know of a guy in a
full C, hands and arms back witha buffalo skull bringing it
down and he missed the shot.
But like that was, like I feellike that would be like and he
missed the shot.
But like that was like I feellike that would be like.
Just the like the hero shottrailer.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
Picture of just like that was the.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
For me that was one of the like, the most, like it's
pretty intense scene.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
Yeah, exactly it felt pretty like one thing that you
know um SGJ does really good inthis is that he brings the you
know like black metal, vikingviolence and like that vampiric

(01:00:59):
depiction really closer home tolike okay, but also like now,
it's native American, right it's, it's flavored as native
american violence, right and um,it's just so metal at points
like it's just, it's just, it'sepic, um, all right, sorry, um.
That's the first theme.

(01:01:19):
Second theme penance.
What is penance?
We hear the word a lot.
A lot of people know what thisthey.
They know the word right in acontext, but like taken out of a
purely religious context orbiblical context, uh, penance is
the confession of sin to apriest or person and reception

(01:01:42):
of absolution it is, it issaying I have sinned, here is
the sin, and I give you theright to judge me.
And I'm going to go throughthese three, these next three
together, because I think theyall kind of, of course, play
onto each other.

(01:02:02):
But absolution is the thirdtheme.
Absolution, again, we hear it alot.
What's it mean?
The formal release from guilt,obligation or punishment, so you
receive absolution duringpenance.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
You give penance, you receive absolution.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Yes, and then you receive absolution.
Yes, and then you receiveabsolution, but then in that
absolution, absolution might notbe received at the same time
which is one thing that we seethrough this, right.
And so, who really givesabsolution?
What does absolution look like?
And then, finally, gospel,gospel which is outside of again

(01:02:48):
, again, the gospels of jesuschrist.
But just looking at gospel aslike the, the the noun of it now
not not proper noun um, a setof principles, beliefs or
absolute truths.
Um, so I think those three will, will go over together, um, as
like kind of one in the other,because, cause I think they're
super highly related, which isgoing to get us into our key

(01:03:10):
points.
But then, finally, the last onelineage of a people, right, how
are we remembered?
How do we remember the Romans?
How do we remember the Mingdynasty?
How do we remember, you know,blackfeet tribes, right?
And so all that said, um, Ithink the, the last one, of
course, is the one that ispossibly most tragic because of

(01:03:34):
something you mentioned, pat,when we were offline, but I I
want to emphasize it here, andthen we can go to the, the core
three penance, absolution andgospel when we're going through
key points.
But lineage of people, people,you know, good, stab, we find
out he's been feeding onNapiquans for a few years,
because he's also punishing them, he's trying to thwart their

(01:03:57):
attempts to eliminate his people.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
And the black horn.

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
And the black, which is, you know, yeah, their
attempt in eliminating the blackhorn.
But he finds out that the moreNapiquan blood he drinks and how
his body uses the blood to healitself, he has begun to grow a
beard, his skin's whiter and herealizes, oh my gosh, if I drink

(01:04:21):
this I will become one of them.
Which means the inverse is, ifhe wishes to remain Pagani and
hold onto that, he must drinkPagani, which means he has to be
a killer of his own people,because his body doesn't do
anything with cold blood.
The blood has to be fromsomething living.
And I found that so tragic butalso very interesting, because I

(01:04:45):
think that is very true totoday.
I can't speak to thatnecessarily in a Native American
context.
I mean, I know I'm part NativeAmerican but I've never had an
opportunity or anything to likeembrace that side of my family
or follow up in it.
I just know that's ancestrywise right up in there.

(01:05:05):
But what I can see is like, um,I, like, I.
I would be more comfortablesaying like, if I were to truly
try to grab a hold of mygermanic or irish roots or
scottish roots, that to grab ahold of those and hold on to
them today in an attempt to likekind of pearl clutch right and

(01:05:31):
almost nostalgia right, thatthere would be something
cheapening about doing thattoday versus then, right, like
there's a reason, like there arecertain things that you know
older Germanic tribes orScottish clans did and their
naming, even the name, uh, youknow the naming of like the

(01:05:55):
o'donnells or the mccarthy's,right, like all of that is got
very strong roots and why it wasdone that way and the roots
aren't in latin, you know,they're in the native language,
right, um, but I do feel like tograb a hold of those now means
that you, you're kind ofcheapening what it was then

(01:06:17):
because it was easier then, andyou're kind of feeding off of it
.
When you're like holding ontoit today, um, and I almost, I
almost like even can break itdown more Like imagine the toys
you had as a kid, the TV shows,the radio channels, um, and

(01:06:37):
radio shows or, uh, I think, thebooks you read and the games
you played and for me games is abig one.
If I play, I will play, likevideo games.
Nowadays I'm right now playingcommand and conquer three, uh,
tiberium wars, and real g's aregoing to recognize that game for
the freaking goat.
It is.
Uh, it was like a lot ofpeople's first time playing a

(01:07:00):
game where you built a base andmoved an army around and
destroyed other people's bases.
But anyways, um, I'm playingthat purely for the nostalgia.
It's a good game.
But I'm playing that purely forthe nostalgia.
It's a good game.
But I'm playing it because inthe moment and I'm hearing the
music and I'm hearing thedialogue in the game and I'm
back to living in a moreSouthern Central part of

(01:07:21):
Colorado, I'm at mygrandparents' house on the
weekend and I'm playing on thiscomputer, playing the game,
while looking out the window andseeing my neighborhood buddy
walk over.
So we can, you know, shoot myred rider bb gun at pepsi cans
and like there's a, there's acheapening of that when you only

(01:07:41):
get a part of it today and Ifeel like I'm feeding you know
I'm holding onto it when I'mplaying this thing and I know
it's not as good as it's ever,as it ever was then, but it's
still pretty good right now andit's it's better than the
alternative, because thealternative is the not be Kwan
blood and it's nasty and I don'twant a part of it, and so I I

(01:08:02):
again, I'm not sure that's whatthe author is saying.
I do think that is a theme,though heavily throughout this
book, and we see it as a themenot just for Goodstab but also
the Catman.
The Catman has, I believe, adistaste and an impatience for
the Native American culture andhe clearly has a pride of the

(01:08:29):
heyday, you know, when he iswriting Goodstab, after
punishing him, saying you knowand I think Shane Ghostkeeper
does it really well in themoment he's like you know
nothing of who I am.
I am 450 years old, and likethat line alone delivered in

(01:08:51):
Pagani to Goodstab because thisvampire, this cat man, has been
among his people so long nowthat he knows the language To me
felt like he's just liketelling him, like this is
entertainment for me, this isanother Tuesday, for me, this is
another game.
And he's just like telling them, like this is entertainment,
this is another, this is another.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
Tuesday.
For me, this is another game.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
You have.
And he says literally like he's, like I've been a part of the
like erasing cities and thedownfall of nations, like this
is nothing.
And you know and it made me feellike, even for him, though,
what he's doing, as, like thischief of this tribe, is him
probably trying to relive orhold on to something of the past

(01:09:31):
.
So then, finally, we see that,also with Arthur, arthur holds
on to certain things like aletter.
He was going to mail but neverdid.
And he was going to burn but itnever burned.
There's, uh, the, the hairs,the orange haired cat that
reminds him of his orange hairedlover, who ended up being the,

(01:09:53):
the mistress mother of hischildren.
They had no idea of like.
All that, I think, is, you know, an emphasis on like who.
How will you be remembered?
You know what is your lineage,what is your and I mean
ultimately Etsy story.
She is your lineage.
What is your, and I meanultimately Etsy's story.
She is the lineage, and she'sshown like what her ancestry is.

(01:10:15):
And then she, like Goodstab,completely gives her the choice
of saying like hey, I'm notdeciding what the fate is here,
it's entirely in your hands.
So also the movie.
It's called the Dark, it'sentirely in your hands.
Also the movie.
It's called the Dark.
It's a Canadian movie.
It's about a giant mole rateating corpses in a graveyard oh

(01:10:36):
my goodness.
And some cops and a scientisttry to kill it.
It's awful, sounds nostalgic.
No, it's literally just a guyin a giant mole rat costume.
But that's exactly thatcreature is what I imagined
Arthur Bacar was in the end.
Yeah, all right, before we goback to the other themes,
lineage of people you gotanything on that, pat?

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
Yeah, no, I do.
I feel like you said it wherefor good stab he and or the only
way to keep at the point wherehe is?
He is the oldest person in histribe.
No one's older than him At thetime of, mostly at the time of
him even meeting Arthur.
He's 90.

(01:11:20):
Right, and so, really, at thispoint in time, all the history,
all the lineage, all the storieshe holds, them all, and the
only way to like keep being whohe wants to be is to continue to
watch the, the kind of downfallof his people, and you know,
and, in a way, and so I thinkthere is a, I think there's a

(01:11:41):
piece there, just like to you'respeaking of, where the, the
catch-22 of um, in order tomaintain, you have to erase
pieces of it as well, and that'spart of his pain, um, that he
goes through, um, and so, yeah,I think that that was where,

(01:12:03):
once again, the, the platform ofvampire story, the sucking the
blood out of something, you knowis um then brought much bigger,
to a point of um, you know, thesucking the blood out of this
people, right.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Um all right right penance,absolution and gospel.
So I'm also gonna let you speakon these, pat just kind of give
me your thoughts on it.
I mean because we're both, youknow, I would say rather
religious men, um and so withthat, you know what are.

(01:12:44):
How do you see, you know thesethree kind of playing hold here,
because I think it's veryimportant in the language of,
you know, arthur Picard refersto his own chapters where he's
recounting in his journal hisown thoughts and investigations
as the absolution of threepersons.

(01:13:05):
But then, whenever we're gettingum good steps, confession, he
says the gospel of the max zarayeah, it's hard for me to
pronounce it, um, but he herefers to that as absolute truth
, the gospel, and he refers tohimself, the absolution.

(01:13:26):
You know, as in like, he isbeing punished and will need
like.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
This is this is a punishment in process that will
like need a release from yeah,and you can't one piece on that
where we're talking aboutpenance, penance is something
you can do, absolution you can'tdo.
You can give it to somebody.
True For them wronging you.
So there is a he's in a Arthurin his cannot absolve himself,

(01:13:57):
yeah, right, but he isattempting to through his
writings, right.
And so I think all threecharacters go through um penance
, absolution and gospel.

Speaker 1 (01:14:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
Um, you know, and for Arthur it's um, I think even
for Arthur it's, his penance waseven becoming a priest, oh,
yeah, or yeah, becoming a priestin the first place.
That's his, his active penance.
And then all the way to him, wedon't know how he got turned

(01:14:33):
into a vampire himself.
We know that Goodstab did it,but we didn't get the account of
it.
We don't know if he, goodstab,took him and made him drink
Goodstab's blood, right?
But we don't know.
Did he willingly go do it?
Did he?
Was that chosen penance thatstab his blood, right?
But we don't know.
Did he willingly go do it?
Yeah, did he right?
So, was that?
Was that chosen penance or wasthat?
But that's a part of hispenance too, to be a gopher on
the ground, whether he chose itor not, right?

(01:14:54):
Um, and his hold on.

Speaker 1 (01:14:57):
Let me say that to you before we get too far yeah
go.
We keep on referring to him asa gopher, right.
There's a thing here, right,where a prairie dog a prairie
dog, right.
It's like if Goodstab was onlyto feed on certain animals or
the Catman was only to feed oncertain animals, you'd take on
more features of that animal.
So the reason we say gopher isbecause at the end of the book

(01:15:18):
Arthur McCarn is like a sevenfoot long groundhog.

Speaker 2 (01:15:22):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
Like groundhog man thing.

Speaker 2 (01:15:26):
Right, they've just been out there in the prairie.

Speaker 1 (01:15:32):
He's been also time-wise, for a hundred years.

Speaker 2 (01:15:34):
Goodstap has been force-feeding him.
You know, as far as we can tell, you know prairie dogs for a
hundred years for a century, andhe's completely and wholly
become that thing, and so that'sa part of his absolution and
penance completely and whollybecome that thing, and so, um
the that's a part of hisabsolution and penance.
His ultimate absolution is hisfinal.

(01:15:55):
You know moments as in when his, his absolution is being, you
know, dispatched by his ownfamily.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
By his own great, great, great granddaughter Right
.
I agree, I and I owngreat-great-great-granddaughter
Right, I agree, and I don'tthink.
I think that was the big thing.
It was like at first.

Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
I was like I don't think Like should that chapter
have been titled the Absolutionof Three Persons?
It?

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
should have if Etsy was aware enough.
I don't think Etsy was awareenough.
I don't think Etsy saw what shewas doing as absolution of
arthur.
I think she saw it as penancefor herself to goodstap.
I think she was so like wrappedup, like I need to do something
because clearly I owe goodstapsomething.
So I'll kill my, I'll kill mygreat great grandfather at like

(01:16:41):
on a special day in memoriam ofthe, of the massacre.
And I think that is also why, atthe end of it, good stab
doesn't return her like you knowhello, like allies, fist in the
air, because he's like that wasyour, that was up to you, man,
like whatever happened overthere, that's between you guys,

(01:17:03):
like I don't, like I don't thinkgood stab was expect, because
goodab never gave her anydirection on what to do, right,
he just said a family reunionand then left yeah, and that was
the last word he ever said wasa family reunion, mm-hmm.
And so I do agree with youfull-heartedly.
Like what Etsy does at the end,and quote-un kills uh, arthur,

(01:17:28):
because he's definitely not dead, he's, he's beheaded and his
body's at the bottom of a ravinein the dead of winter.
But we know from what the catman said, beheading isn't the
end at all, and so I thinkthere's a really good chance
that arthur bu, unfortunately,is going to be at the bottom of

(01:17:50):
that gorge for a little whileand then have to start feeding
on something else.
Right, but it is ironic thatshe seemed to be unaware of the
penance or, sorry, of theabsolution she was giving, and
that saw it as penance forherself.

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
Yeah, that was her penance for absolution and
Goodstaff himself.
He comes to Arthur in the firstplace and says to give his
confession.
Shadowy way of saying it toArthur.

(01:18:29):
We even get a feeling likeeventually wait, whose
confession is this?
Yeah, Right, Yep, but it hedoes ultimately confess.
It is his confession as well.
It's for both of them.
He's forcing Arthur to confessto what he did, but he also is
giving his own confessions wherehe you know the things he had

(01:18:50):
to do to maybe ultimately savehis people or get rid of the cat
man and the um.
So he, I don't think he evergets absolution.
He's never absolved.

Speaker 1 (01:19:05):
There's no one to absolve him I think his
absolution is that he's notalone, like he's in daylight
riding horses in memoriam tothis site.
Yeah, and there's people withhim, that's a good point, I
think his absolution is that,like he's been living with his
tribe for the last however manyyears, hopefully close to a

(01:19:28):
hundred, right?
Um, I think his penance was andI say penance because I don't
it's hard for me to think thatgood stab I don't.
The most evil thing good stabdid in my eyes was just start

(01:19:48):
killing people that had nothingto do with the the massacre.
Like I, I understand why heended up going after arthur's
heirs and then, you know, madethat a thing to harass arthur
with.
But, dude, when you, when weget the image of the, the pews

(01:20:10):
full of the dead dogs and theother dead townspeople from the
bar and stuff, I'm just likedude this is evil.
This is insanely evil.
This is a.
This is beyond vengeance.
There's no part of this that isvengeance.
Um, because I don't, I don'teven remember like an evil
characterization,characterization of the sheriff,

(01:20:31):
right like the sheriff was justa dude.
He's like kind of doing his job,kind of yeah it like it was
just kind of shocking to me, um,because that was the time when
I was like I remember telling Iwas telling bill, telling Billie
Jean about this book the wholetime through, and um, she was
like good stabs evil, good stabis a bad guy and I was like I

(01:20:54):
know, but I I'm shocked becauseI didn't think he was and this
is such an evil thing to do.
Um, so I guess, with that, likeI do think his penance is
sitting in.
I think his penance is partlybeing a survivor and having to
watch as people fade away andalso having to in order to

(01:21:17):
remain a part of his people.
He has to feed on them somehow.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
Right, and cause his like.
His whole thing was like whydid this?
Is beaver chief is punishing mefor these things, right, and
then like, and then him havingto be where he was like why did
this?
Is beaver chief is punishing mefor these things, right, and
then like, and then him havingto be where he was like.
I'm the only one who kind oflike, knows the stories or like
these things like, um, and so heand yeah, being alone, not
being able to be with his peopleunless he's eaten them.

Speaker 1 (01:21:44):
yeah, for probably For probably over a hundred
years, right, um, I do alsothink that him just being in the
church, though to provide theconfession, is partly penance,
like we know, like this vampirestory, right, like, vampires can
go on religious hollow ground.
Vampires can touch crucifixes,they can be in the sunlight and
they won't turn to ash.

(01:22:05):
We know that it's veryuncomfortable for them, they're
not even, they're not likesmoking, you know.
But we know that he said thatlike he burns a lot easier, like
his son burns a lot easier, andlike the sun could eventually
dry him out.
Right, like, if he's just leftin the sun and unable to move

(01:22:25):
anything, he'd just be like adried, wrinkled.
Like, not, he wouldn't be dead,dead, he'd still be able to
feed if something came near, buthe'd be pretty malnourished.
But like he talks about justbeing in the church and how,
like, even with all the shuttersclosed, it's still too bright
and hurts his eyes, and how it'sexhausting for him to be there

(01:22:49):
and part of me wonders if thatis like a sign of like something
religious right has power onthat supernatural blood.
Right, because he even talkedabout how, at one time or
another, you know, the, thenative american religious sites
had, you know, differing effectson it.
Right, like whether it was likeit, kind of like he didn't need
the feed as much.

(01:23:10):
Right, like when he's withNoppy he pretty much just
hibernates the whole winter, andlike it's pretty, pretty easy
living with Noppy Um anyways, no, yeah, and I think maybe the
ultimate penance for him was tonever be uh, um, you know?

Speaker 2 (01:23:32):
oh, what's the?
I'm forgetting the indian, theword the, uh, the p word, the.
To never be pagani again neverbe he can never be pagani all
the way he just isn't?
He can't?
You know like how you speak tothe big.
One of the biggest things thatgot to him was he couldn't ride
a horse anymore.
Yeah, like I can't ride a horse.

Speaker 1 (01:23:49):
Which he learns, which he learns how to Right In
the most awful way.
He learns it from the cat man.
Right, like the cat man, is theone who rubs his face in it,
basically.

Speaker 2 (01:23:59):
Yeah, for sure, but like it's just't, no matter,
even if he drinks them all, he'sstill not going to be Pagani,
not forever, yep.

Speaker 1 (01:24:14):
And not all the way and he'll.
I think it's too like justexistence, his penance, right,
because he talks so many timesabout wanting to follow the dead
into the sand hills, like maybethey'll take me to the
sandhills, maybe they'll lead meto them if I'll follow them
this time and like, never oncedo spirits lead him to the

(01:24:35):
sandhills, because of course hecan't die right, um, which is
crazy, because you think, likeat this point, like especially
good lord etsy.
You'd think Etsy would know.
Oh yeah, I watched Buffy theVampire Hunter growing up, so I
got to get some steaks.
I'll just take my grandfather inthe heart.
Yeah, and that's the thing thatnever, ever happens.

(01:24:57):
His heart is never pierced withanything.
You know.
He specifies several timesgetting shot in the shoulders,
stabbed in the stomach or goredeven Never is his heart ever
pierced, which I really do thinkis because he's, like the
author Stephen Graham Jones ishonoring that vampiric lore of

(01:25:19):
like, yeah, stick to the heartwould have done it, but no one
ever staked these guys in theheart.
Also, when here's a cool thingthat I think is really makes a
lot of sense, I kind of want togive him props, I want to send
him an email or something, right, just like.
Hey, dude, I just want to say Inoticed this this seems like it
was thought out.
The first telling of dracula,which is really known as the

(01:25:39):
most modern vampire story, right, like it brought vampires to
like a world-renowned level ofpublicity was 1897, was when it
was published as a as like aplay.
Right, and so it wouldn't havebeen until probably sometime
after the 19th, like 19, early1900s, right, that, uh, the play

(01:26:03):
was in america or the book wasin america, right, so there's a
good chance, like, even ArthurBacar hasn't heard of what
Dracula is or knows how to dealwith it.
No one does.
No one knows what to do withthese things.
And Dracula, of course.
The story says Vlad the Impalerbecame Dracula through

(01:26:26):
something.
Something supernatural madeVlad the Impaler became Dracula
through something.
Something supernatural madeVlad the Impaler an unkillable,
undying creature, demon.
Vlad the Impaler was truly agovernor of Transylvania area in
the 15th century, 15th centurybeing 1400s, 15th century being

(01:26:52):
1400s.
So the cat man.
In 1890, something is yellingin our boy, good stabs face,
saying I'm 450 years old.
It kind of lines up that thecat man was dracula, vlad the
impaler, right, and he's nowjust a fish out there.
Yeah, because for people whohaven't read the book or
anything, no, no, uh, in thefinal fight, you know, good stab

(01:27:15):
ends up overpowering, uh, thecat man and then makes him feed
on fish for years until he justlets him loose, as like a giant
pike he's like, and everythinghe ever feeds, son and drinks
will always be fish.
So he'll only ever be a fishagain.
Yeah, and the only way he won'tbe a fish is if someone pulls

(01:27:36):
him out of the water, but thenhe'll suffocate for years on
land, suffering.

Speaker 2 (01:27:41):
That is like the native wooden stake.
It is, I feel like the way hethought it through, or being a
groundhog right, just being like, well, yeah, once he's in the
lake, you just can.

Speaker 1 (01:27:52):
Only the sturgeon can only freaking yeah you know
fish it's a or Boris, uh-huheating its own tail, kind of
thing.
Yeah, so, all that said, I justthought that was really cool.
I think you touched oneverything that I have for
penance, absolution and gospel.
Um, I really do believe thateveryone's gospel is good.

(01:28:17):
Stabs, like Arthur and Etsy'sgospel, their principles,
beliefs, absolute truths, by theend of the book are entirely
good stabs gospel, which is kindof cool because you think about
it, of like they areessentially the gospel of arthur
and the gospel of etsy, saying,like I've seen it, I believe so

(01:28:38):
it's kind of like theequivalent of like a gospel of
luke, gospel of john and thegospel of, you know, good
Sabbath is kind of like thefirsthand testimony of Jesus.
You know if we're talking about, like you know, alluding to or
allegory, right to the waygospels are told.
The gospels of Matthew, mark,luke and John are written

(01:29:04):
because they believe Jesus,jesus's testimony in the life of
Jesus, to be the absolute truth.
And these are written this waybecause they believe that, uh,
good steps, you know, uh,account is a hundred percent
true and it's worth knowing andretelling.
Um, except for, I guess, at theend, etsy, you know, destroys

(01:29:24):
the book.
Uh, cause she doesn't wantanyone knowing good stabs of
vampire and out there, which Ireally hated.
I guess they left it open thatlike there could be more copies
like Etsy and knowledge is likeI just deleted what I could on
my stuff in the shared foldersand all that, but there could
still be more copies out thereand I can only do what I can.
I did really really hate theway she handled it, though, with

(01:29:48):
that woman who was kind ofgoing above and beyond to send
her the transcriptions.
She's like yeah, you can haveit.
And that woman she's like justgive me like 10 minutes with it,
and that woman was like crying,she was so thankful, and then
Etsy goes in there and destroysit.
I was like that was a douchemove, because the woman told her

(01:30:09):
she she even says like she saidI could have it if I wanted it,
like yeah, then why not do that?
Like why not just take it andthen destroy it?
Why lie to her and then destroyit?
Etsy, honestly and I thinkthat's why she was written this
way I think she was written tobe kind of a douche, like
there's three things she doesthat is like just so, like not

(01:30:30):
well thought through and feltvery like disrespectful and
almost like she didn't know itwas disrespectful, like she's.
So she was so focused or hyperfixated on something that she
didn't know how disrespectfulshe was, being the genuine
buffalo head.
Yeah, she just leaves in hertrashed apartment to be thrown

(01:30:54):
into some auction or something.
I'm just like.
That seems very rude to me.
Like I get it, you might notwant to keep that because it was
horrifyingly menacing when itwhen good stab was like using it
to disguise himself.
At the same time kind ofdisrespectful for like the

(01:31:17):
significance of this animal.

Speaker 2 (01:31:19):
Again, after you just got done reading the whole
account, and like what goodstab's efforts were to save them
the death of weasel plume,these things exactly and then
it's like yeah, and then youknow the, uh, I, I agree, the um
, and yeah, her, her characterthere.

(01:31:41):
The only piece I think that wasmaybe um, from the author's
perspective there, on why he didit that way or why, like, cause
the the she says along somelong lines of just going to end
up in a pawn shop.
Anyways, I think that he wasspeaking to a very real thing
that happens in towns thatsurround native reservations all

(01:32:06):
around.

Speaker 1 (01:32:06):
Billy Jean said this.
When I told her I wasfrustrated about this, billy
jean said this exact point ohyeah, which I'm very interested,
but go ahead go ahead, but youknow just the fact that.

Speaker 2 (01:32:15):
So, like I've talked to, uh, you know, like one of my
friends who's uh, uh, he's achoctaw anyways, he's like you,
we go out and you go to a.
I'll back up TP.
Family TP is very important.
They've been passed down forgenerations, generations,

(01:32:35):
generations.
Also a known fact Nativepeoples really struggle with
addiction.
Alcohol gambling with addiction,alcohol and so, uh, sometimes
what they have, all they haveleft, is that family teepee.
They're going down to the pawnshop, they're pawning it and

(01:32:57):
then they are, um, using it forthat addiction, um and so, um, I
I think he might have beenspeaking to a piece of that just
like her remark of you know,it's going to end up in a pawn
shop anyways would be like howreally the?
I feel like the only NativeAmerican art, or even the stuff

(01:33:23):
from the 60s and 70s aroundNative art, is just, it's all in
pawn shops, you know like ohyeah.
This would be like like which isso heartbreaking.

Speaker 1 (01:33:32):
But no, I do.
I know what you're saying.
My, my uncle, is very tappedinto our native American roots.
He knows way more about it thanI do and he actually has a ton
of like genuine native Americanstuff, because he, I just know,
was much more interested in itand like when he would see it in

(01:33:53):
a pawn shop down in Denver orsomething he felt like, not that
he had to rescue it or save it,but he was just very sad about
it.
You know what I mean.
He was very moved by it and Ithink he was.
He felt very torn because, yeah,you know, we're just a, a
minority of like we're, we're aminor part of us as native

(01:34:17):
American, I think I'm a eighthor a 16th or I think I'm a 16th,
um, but with that there'severything else Right, like, and
so, like I think for my uncle,he's not a very he's not a very
sophisticated man and I, but Ido think, like there is a very
simple part of him himself thatthat recognize, like three

(01:34:40):
quarters of me is the reasonthis is here.
A quarter of me deeply wishesto know more and understand this
more and like have a and have abetter and like wants to
understand how to appreciate it.
Not because he I don't think heever, I don't think he truly
believes like the stonetomahawks he has and stuff

(01:35:02):
hanging up are like divine holyrelics, but I do think he truly
sees them and believes likethese are, these were
significant and they aresignificant to someone and these
are as significant as, like youknow, if you were to hand me
down a rifle, right?

Speaker 2 (01:35:20):
yeah, I think this goes to like that.
The lineage of people in thefall of nations piece and the
where good stabs being a vampireacting to.
You know what the metaphor isfor him losing.
You know that and what you'retalking about with you know your
nostalgia example um is um verysimilar to that where, like,

(01:35:43):
like, even like, a tiny, anothertiny example would be like, I
think, like even the here's thelittle thing, land O'Lakes
butter.
What was on Land O'Lakes butter?

Speaker 1 (01:35:56):
Well, it was a kneeling Native American woman
with feathers coming up frombehind her head Right.

Speaker 2 (01:36:02):
What's on Land O'Lakes butter?
Now?
I don't recall Nothing.
Really, they got rid of itbehind her head right.
What's on my analytics butter?
Now?
I don't recall nothing reallythey got rid of it.
So now I realize the so in thewoke, in the woke agenda nature
to erase your um, your racismand or you know, and your or

(01:36:22):
your or're objectifying.
Like this culture you know tobe, like you know um, this is,
you know, appropriating thisculture by putting it on your
butter.
Guess what kids don't seeanymore on their butter?

Speaker 1 (01:36:34):
native americans, native americans guess what kids
don't see anymore in sportseither?

Speaker 2 (01:36:38):
right, exactly, and so and so, like the.
So I I don't know if theauthor's going for any of this
either, but I do feel likethere's this little piece of
like as you hold on to it sohard or try to change it or have
it or not have it, you erase iteven more, just like the fact
that like yeah, okay, I feellike the people who were really

(01:36:59):
wanting, who really earnestlyfelt like this was not supposed
to be on the butter, yeah, um, Ifeel like they came from a they
in their own.
However, they arrived to it,their conclusion, they felt like
that was what was right.

Speaker 1 (01:37:12):
Like I'm helping.

Speaker 2 (01:37:12):
Yeah, I'm protecting.
Yeah Well, guess what you erase?

Speaker 1 (01:37:16):
There's, there's a racer you know, now there's
something insane.
It was like 300,000 signaturesfor the Washington commanders to
go back to being the WashingtonRedskins Right, and a lot of
those signatures were like fromlike national people, and so

(01:37:36):
it's like one of those thingswhere it's like, hey, the group
that should be most offendedwanted the representation.

Speaker 2 (01:37:47):
Right and like yes, we're not going to like like you
know, because, like you said,it's, it's a ratio, it's like no
like if you erase it, then likewe don't have any
representation right and turningstuff, turning people into a
caricature, turning people intoa stereotype, no, but at the
same time, um, completely takingit, you know all the way it's
like you know, I'd say, like youknow, I all the way it's like
you know, I'd say, like you know, I don't know uncle Ben's, aunt

(01:38:07):
Jemima, not on the thinganymore.
You know who is still Quaker,quaker OTs, he's still on there.
So who's getting, just in mylittle grocery store analogy,
who's getting representation?
The, the old white guy.
So it, which is, I don't care ifhe's on there, but it's just
funny that the people who aretrying who's so angry against
the old white guy are also likethen the only person represented

(01:38:31):
is the old white guy, and sothat's obviously a much broader,
larger conversation, but I feellike it's a piece of this story
that's deeper, where you justgo, you know, as these things
get forgotten, not down, untold,unrepresented, um, there's, uh,
there's a loss, you know, andso that's where you get that

(01:38:53):
lineage of people in rise andfall, nations that go away, and
uh, yeah, I just uh, I think, uh, that's what I think, you know
no, I agree and uh, and I thinkit's a shame, like even like I
don't know like quote unquoteplaying Cowboys and Indians,
guess what.
When I was a kid I loved beingthe Indians.

(01:39:13):
Exactly, I loved being a Cowboy.

Speaker 1 (01:39:16):
Yeah, both were fun and you loved being the Indian,
Whatever you know back and forththe same thing.
I definitely had more fun beingthe indians, for I wasn't into
cowboys until I got way older.
Like I was, I was out of highschool before.
I was like you know whatcowboys are cool, but like
exactly, and so I loved the.

(01:39:37):
I don't know, there's somethingabout throwing a plastic
hatchet at people that feelsinvigorating like, noticing like
knowing when it's like that's agood spin no, for real.

Speaker 2 (01:39:49):
And so I think, I think it's a shame in those, in
those ways you know, to just notuh, it's erasing it, man, I and
I, really I, and that's thatfeeling you're talking about
with, like the, it's never goingto be the way it was the
cheapening of things, and I feelthat in my heart when it's like
it's that it's a thing you canhardly explain.

(01:40:09):
But you know, it when you feelthat feeling oh yeah, no for
sure.

Speaker 1 (01:40:13):
Um, I do know that we're we're getting towards the
end here, but so I have some keypoints here and I'm gonna read
them off, and we've talked aboutquite a few already.
Uh, as we've been going throughthe rest of things, like we
always do, right, our key pointsare always at the end because
we know we're going to touch ona lot of it while discussing
other things, like charactersand themes.
Um, but I'm going to go throughthese.

(01:40:36):
I got 12 here and, uh, pat, Ithink you know, pick out a
couple that, like, were reallymemorable, rather, whether was
like how visceral, visceral waswritten, or, you know, just the
emotion in the scene or whateverthat really kind of comes to
mind.
But so the key points in thestory as I see them.

(01:40:57):
You know, I'm going to say thatthe introduction wasn't really
one, because at first I was likewhat academic paper?
You know, what is this?
Centennial am?
I?
Am I listening to centennialright now?
For those who don't know,centennial is a really massive
book on the history of colorado,um, and it's very entertaining.
Um, but, uh, the first key pointgood stabbing arthur bucharn

(01:41:22):
meet.
Uh, goodstab's first encounterwith the Catman, which alludes
to the real-life Mariah'sMassacre, arthur's piece, sorry,
arthur's piecing of the puzzle,you know putting together like
the humps, which the humps isthe phrase, the word used to
describe these skinned peoplethey're finding outside of Miles

(01:41:44):
City and they're skinned justthe same way Buffalo war and, uh
, they're poisoned as well, justthe way the Buffalo war.
And they're also painted blackand yellow.
Um, good steps.
Reunion with his father.
Uh, arthur comes to believe ingood steps, confession.
You know that, that pivotalswitch from doubt to believer,

(01:42:08):
uh, good, good stabs.
Descent from the cross.
I thought that was like, socinematic and uh, that that
imagery will stay with meforever.
Like I think that's the mostmemorable like movie scene,
right, or like tv.

Speaker 2 (01:42:21):
He said good stabs coming out from the cross.
Yeah, do you not remember this?
I refresh me.

Speaker 1 (01:42:30):
There's a moment, uh-huh where arthur is like in
his paranoia and he's, he'sclosed the doors.
He doesn't, he's oh jumpingdown from and he doesn't.

Speaker 2 (01:42:39):
He doesn't realize that good stab has been on the
cross and he didn't notice thathis jesus was replaced yes, yes,
sorry, I I was thinking likethat at some point at a
different point.
Good stab was like acrucifixion type scene.

Speaker 1 (01:42:53):
Okay, yes, yes, yes I just picture, uh the picture
arthur buchanan, not buchanan,sorry uh buchanan sitting in a
pew stressing and we see likeover his shoulder, yeah, as he's
looking at the door like goodstab out of focus, starting to

(01:43:16):
move on the cross and then heturns and looks and he realizes
good stab is slowly like comingto the ground, making no sound
as his feet touch, and herealizes a good stab has been on
the cross this like whole night.
Um, that one really stuck outfor me.
Um.
Good stab's second encounterwith the cat man, like when we

(01:43:38):
realize the cat man's introducedagain, um, and of course, the
death of weasel plume, um, andas well as the child that good
stab was kind of like not takingunder his wing but like very
partial to um, arthur's ascentto the cross, which good stab
puts him up on the cross to makehim listen to the last of the

(01:43:58):
confession, um, and then goodstab's final encounter with the
Catman, their final fight,climactic fight.
It's awesome but it's also verytragic and it's the core of
Goodstap's confession, becausethat's what he wants to confess.
Goodstap's final encounter, oh,yeah, sorry, his final
encounter with the Catman.
Arthur's final words you knowhow he leaves off this journal,

(01:44:29):
off this journal etsy's reunionwith her cat, which was kind of
a surrogate weasel plume for herright, as well as her reunion
with her great, great greatgrandfather.
Yeah, um and uh.
Then, finally, etsy's sacrifice, which is, perhaps, you know,
the absolution of arthur.
Um, those are, those are thekey points I see in this novel,
like those are the the mostimpactful moments that we kind

(01:44:50):
of have, and so we've covered alot of those.

Speaker 2 (01:44:54):
Um, but I want to hear from you, pat, like, which
one of these really stood out toyou, that like made an impact
on you yeah, I think that thehis the part of the book with it

(01:45:15):
I'd say, good stabs, encounterwith the cat man, the death of
weasel plume, and then with thekind of conclusion of that him
good stab being put in his iceprison, that is like a whole uh,
that little chunk is very loud,full lot of meat in there, you
know, and the um we like wespoke about before we're, you

(01:45:38):
know, like we're glad to see thecat man back just for the sake
of story, right, like whathappened to that, you know, um,
but also where it's this a kindof there's a coming of age for
the young vampire with the oldvampires, right?

Speaker 1 (01:45:53):
he learned some stuff .

Speaker 2 (01:45:54):
He's like what am I, why am I this way?
Tries to fight him.

Speaker 1 (01:45:57):
You know um the uh, the oh sorry, I do want to fill
in on that too yeah, the secondencounter with the cat man is
when the cat man has beenfeeding on elk yep, and he has
the imagery of another nativeamerican uh folklore creature
known as the wendigo.
And the wendigo is the spiritthat uh possesses people who can

(01:46:23):
, who could, resort tocannibalism, and it's always
this thing with long arms, longlegs and a skull of elk and
antlers coming out of its head.
And I find the imagery to bevery referential to that of like
the cat man's been feeding onelk so long his face is

(01:46:46):
elongated and his arms and legsare elongated and he's got
antlers growing out of his headhe is the wendigo, you know, in
that and yeah, and it's, it's avery like yeah, I said, I think,
so far as like horror goes,when he described what the cat
man looked like at that point.

Speaker 2 (01:47:07):
I think that could have been the scariest part of
the whole, yeah, whole movie,aside from, like the, the
encounter with Arthur on thecross and like that whole thing.
But, like the, the cat man asthis, this kind of freaky yeah,
elk man and, um, you know,obviously, like the, he finds

(01:47:28):
weasel plume dead and skinnedalive, still breathing.
He trusted him, you know, andthe only reason that he got
skinned alive that way isbecause the bad man, the cat man
, smelled like he did, so hecame up to him and nuzzled him.
You know, it's like's like, oh,it's a heart-wrenching like
seeing this, this white buffalo,and the white buffalo is a, um,

(01:47:51):
you know, very importantsignificant like significant,
sacred um thing, you know, anduh, and so, to be skinned alive?
you know it was like, um, I feel, like the, that the death of
weasel plume was the kind of themetaphor for the death of the

(01:48:12):
Buffalo.
You know, like this, like to beskinned alive like they were,
um, the act of being skinnedalive, like they were fine,
everything was good, but theywere just, you know like, and
they were kind of still alive.
You know, after, after theBuffalo hunters came through,
after they'd been, um, poisonedwith strychnine and herds

(01:48:33):
decimated and, uh, tribes werestarving, um, they weren't dead
yet, but they were.
They were skinned alive.
You know, they were stillbreathing.
They're like, what happened?
Why'd this happen to me, youknow, and it's like the fate was
written, there's no coming backfrom that.
Yeah, and so this, like thatpiece in there was very key.

(01:48:56):
And then, as he went in, andthen you know, and then you have
a good step goes into his this,this Goodstep goes into this
ice cave prison after trying tofight the Catman and failing
because you can't beat the bosson the first go around, right,
no, no, and just like veryvisceral scenes of like him just

(01:49:17):
day in and day out, trying toescape this ice prison, for me
was like a very I don't knowwell, I can't tie it to a
metaphor or a deeper thing.
It was very tragic and horrific, tragic, horrific.
And I think it's somewhatdevelopmental, you know, for
good stab, as far as, like thehe, once he came out of the ice

(01:49:39):
cave he was not the same as hehad been going into it.

Speaker 1 (01:49:42):
Yeah, I mean there's that scene too where, like
another native american isdropped down in from a different
tribe and he finds Goodstab andhe's like, hey, what's going on
?

Speaker 2 (01:49:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:49:54):
And Goodstab reels and immediately drinks from him
because he's so starved and likeit's horrific, because what
could have been an ally iscompletely out of good status
control, like he has to feed andso he.
He eats an ally there.
You know it's just very tragic.

Speaker 2 (01:50:16):
He comes out with renewed purpose, but of
vengeance.
Before this, his like, hismission in life was to survive
and like keep the buffalo safe.
His mission in life was tosurvive and like keep the
Buffalo safe after the ice cave.
He is.
Now he has purpose again, butit's just kind of uh to find the
cat man to feed him, you know,and seek vengeance.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:50:37):
Yeah, Um final encounter with the cat man,
anything on that?

Speaker 2 (01:50:42):
Um, I think that we kind of touched on it really
Final encounter with the Catman,anything on that, I think that
we kind of touched on it earlier, the way he turned him into a
fish and got rid of him.
I'd say that's the finaliteration of that, but that
whole final battle leading up toit, which is his ultimate

(01:51:02):
confession, right.

Speaker 1 (01:51:09):
Which would be what's her.
Her name kills in the water,something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:51:11):
But there's a girl who can't speak, who had taken
care of Goodstab, who had lookedout for him while he was
imprisoned, and then, ultimately, the only way to get rid of the
cat man was to use her as bait.
Use her as bait, let her bekilled and for both of them to
drink her blood, Um and like.

(01:51:33):
So there was a this like, um,dichotomy maybe the wrong word,
but like.
There's this, uh, um, duality,duality of like.
The only way to succeed was toengage it, you know to, because
basically, this girl had thisspecial blood that could, um,

(01:51:53):
make him make both of thempowerful, you know right.
But so the only, it was theonly way to, for him is the only
way he saw forward to protecthis people from the cat man, to
get rid of the cat man, was tosacrifice this girl, and that
was his ultimate confession andhis most um.
That was the person he killed,who he, like, had the most, um,
you know, regret and guilt over,and so, um, you know the, and

(01:52:19):
that's why he came to the priest, and that there was, there was
this dark side of this dark kindof like, um menacing side of
good stab that came to thepriest and said I'm going to
make, I'm making a confessionwhich is actually for your
punishment confession.
You will confess to me.
But the human side of good stabwas but there is one thing I

(01:52:42):
actually really do have to getoff my chest here, and there was
that Right, and so I think thatwas that there is one thing I
actually really do have to getoff my chest here, and it was
that right, and so I think thatwas.
That was obviously a verypowerful point in the book um
where good stab that was hisconfession in that piece.

Speaker 1 (01:52:58):
All right.
So final, final takes here Um,you know I I think this book is
here.
Um, you know I I think thisbook is.
It's up there for me in thegreat westerns, you know it,
it's of the books I've read,this has got to be one of the
best uh point of views tounderstand, like the native

(01:53:20):
american struggle during thewestern expansion.
Um, I, I truly believe that thisbook uses the supernatural
wrapping around it to tell thestory of and make it in a way
that you can empathize assomeone who's not a native

(01:53:41):
american, who doesn't know, uh,the kind of passed down personal
history of you know what thesepeople went through in their
history and like they're, whatis it I'm trying to think of the
word, not genealogy, butgenerational history, and I I

(01:54:03):
really think it does a great jobbecause by the end of it I
found myself deeply empathizingum and understanding the, the
anger, the frustration that goodstep had um and why he did what
he did.
It doesn't make it good, but itmakes it understandable, um, and

(01:54:26):
so, with that, like, I think itwas a very impactful book in
that manner, um, and I think thesupernatural element of it
provides, honestly, the thatkind of pulpiness to make it
fresh, because it's telling thissupernatural thing that we've

(01:54:48):
heard so many times before, somany different vampire stories,
but it's telling it in a waythat is very, very new and
unique and it pays off reallywell at the end.
So I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 (01:55:07):
It's a top book for me best book I've read that came
out in recent memory no forsure, and I think that, going
back to what we're talking about, the title at the beginning if
this was titled cowboys versusvampires, yeah, I would not have
read it.
Yeah, you know there's.
There's like a cowboys versusaliens.
You know that movie whatever,like like cowboys or vampires,

(01:55:29):
like I'd been like, yeah, no,you know, cause it's not that at
all.
It's uh, um, and I'm not evenlike that big or huge into
horror, vampire, whatever stuff,but I do have fun with it and I
do think that the way this wasdone was, um, unless you're

(01:55:49):
somebody who just really can'thandle like violence and gore
stuff, um, if you read it,listen to it, even if you've
come this far with it.
We've talked about the storyand we've given you the bits and
pieces and spoiled stuff, um, Ithink you'll still.
You'll hear, you'll understandwhat we're talking about if you

(01:56:10):
listen to it, you know yeah yeah, well, hey, uh, ken, thanks for
joining us.

Speaker 1 (01:56:15):
We appreciate you.
Uh, if you get a chance, goahead, get yourself a till next
time from anchorage brewing.
It's pretty dang good.
And if you haven't read thebook already, check it out, as
well as check out the rest ofStephen Graham Jones' work.
I'll definitely be lookingthrough his catalog to figure

(01:56:35):
out my next read.
But again, we can't thank youenough for listening.
Please leave a comment, let usknow, leave a review on
whichever platform you listen on.

Speaker 2 (01:56:47):
Pat till next time.
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