The Mick & Pat Show - Thresholds Will Get You Killed

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Few things are more humbling than watching yourself "die" repeatedly during tactical training. That's exactly what happened when we gathered a group of friends for an intensive Close Quarters Battle (CQB) course at our headquarters.

The first and most crucial lesson we learned? Thresholds kill. Those doorways, windows, and transitions between spaces are where most operators meet their end – hesitating for even a millisecond can be fatal. We Break down some real-world footage of trained professionals making fatal mistakes in doorways, bringing home the stark reality that Hollywood-style room clearing is pure fantasy.

As we progressed through increasingly complex scenarios, adding hostile combatants armed with gel blasters, we discovered just how challenging CQB truly is. Even our highly experienced instructors "died" repeatedly during demonstrations. The most sobering realization? John Wick wouldn't survive the first scene of his own movie.

Beyond the tactical skills, the greatest value came from developing the right mindset under stress. Learning to maintain clear thinking, make quick decisions, and adapt when plans inevitably collapse proved far more valuable than any specific technique. While most civilians will never need offensive CQB skills, the mental training translates to numerous emergency scenarios.

The weekend left us with newfound respect for those who perform these operations professionally – and a healthy dose of realism about our own capabilities when bullets start flying through walls.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
so I was watching this video, uh-huh.
All right, actually I'm justgonna send it to you because I
have it, I have it in mymessages on my phone here
somewhere and you can just uhtake a look here.
Actually, it's probably evenjust easier to uh play it on my
phone here for you.
But, um, it's just acompilation video of uh, uh,

(00:27):
like in a short it's like Idon't know, maybe 30 seconds,
but it's a it's dudes dying inthe threshold, um, and for
people who are listening, whodon't understand, um, the
threshold is any transitoryspace, uh, such as a doorway, a

(00:47):
window, things like that, andthere is this compilation.
Now, I can't, of course, findit right, because YouTube is
going to be a pain in my butt,but it was just essentially law
enforcement getting stuck in thethreshold at times and not
moving, or some CQB militaryoperations that were recorded

(01:12):
and they were not moving throughthe threshold effectively and
getting killed, and it's notlike super graphic, like it
doesn't show you, like you know,people dying.
Well, I mean, it kind of does.
But like you don't see thembleeding, yeah, that's the thing
is like you could tell likethey lost because they panicked
and hesitated before going inthreshold, and a lot of people

(01:33):
don't realize that they're doingit.
And that was one thing like Ilearned from our cqb course was
that there's two or three timeswhere I was told like hey, like
the first time I was like I wastold like hey, you paused for
quite a bit in that thresholdand no one died, but you could
have died.
And then the second time Ihesitated for like a millisecond

(01:55):
but it was still like hey, youknow, that would have, that
could have cost you your life inthat moment.
And then the third time, I didhesitate and I got hit with a
what are these orbeez with thegel blaster, the gel blast, the
gel blaster got me and it waslike not even a real, real
hesitation.

(02:16):
You know, I mean it was sobrief, but I it was like it was
a brief of like okay, wait,that's a, that's a no shoot.
Turn, that's a no shoot andthat step in and it all this
happens in the span of like atenth of a second right and then
that step in.
After that momentary hesitation,even though I was on the move
again is when I got hit, um, andif I had just pushed in and

(02:40):
move, kept moving and dealt withthreat assessment after the
fact, I wouldn't have been hitbecause I would have seen the
dude with the gel blastershooting me.
But anyways, the part of thatwas, at one point I was stacked
up behind you, pat, and I waspushing on you and I was like,
get in, get in.
Get in, because you realize too,when you're last being on stack

(03:02):
you can't help secure anythinguntil the dude in front of you
is through that threshold Right,especially on a 180 threshold
like this office is.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, for sure, and so I just wasn't ready to die.
But I will walk you through mythinking on it.
For sure.
Yeah, as we were running thesedrills, going through, I do
think guys were either pushingthrough the threshold way too

(03:35):
fast or way too slow, meaning Iguess my thought process on this
one was because I wasn'tstanding in the threshold as I
hadn't cleared it yet and Iwanted to get an angle to see
coming in.
So I was a third man, we hadfirst man in, second man in,

(03:57):
third man in and what I noticed,lots of us were trying to just
get through the door as fast aspossible.
Noticed lots of us were tryingto just get through the door as
fast as possible, which, onceyou make, I was in my mind, what
I was trying to do is, once youmake that decision or step to
go through the threshold, tomove through the door.
That is when, yes, that has tobe like a hundred percent speed,

(04:18):
like once you've committed you,you got to move through it.
But what was happening in someof these drills was we would say
you know, one, two, three goand first, second, third guy
would bust through there andI'll just die, cause they were
just like they would just run inthe room, versus like any sort
of um, like you can take anangle on a door and peek and see

(04:46):
and then pie a little and thenpush through into a room.
And so I was.
That was kind of that's where Iwas.
I was trying to move slower andthen, at that point of moving
through, once we moved through Idon't know if I did or didn't
move through fast, but that was,that was my active thought
process.
Now, what my body was actuallydoing I don't know, because this

(05:09):
was so new to all of us.
You have what you think you'redoing and then you have the
replay and you're like oh, Ithought I was doing something
totally different.
And so that's where, for CQB ingeneral, I just hear a lot of
guys say like it's a lot slowerthan you always think.

(05:29):
Now, standing in the door, youwill die if there's somebody
right to engage you.
So that, which is where youknow it sounds like there's lots
of these the video you'rereferring to where you have
people getting hung up in thedoor.
So like, um, and in thisspecific room, corner fed room,

(05:51):
we could see one, we could seeone angle straight down, but we
couldn't see the deep side ofthe room.
So it's actually, and it's areally, actually a really hard
room to clear because you can'tget an angle, especially with
the curtains, with the curtainsand with the wall.
The door is against the corneron the wall, so you can't.
It's against the wall on theexcuse me on the right side.

(06:14):
You can't move any furtherright?
Just try to see videos of whatI was doing versus what I
thought I looked like I wasdoing in my head.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
But yeah, and what we're talking about is what
we're going to be talking aboutkind of probably the rest of the
evening, which is CQB, closequarters, combat and really fun
training that we got to do thispast weekend.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, it was really sick.
And, to your point, pat, I hadno real firearm CQB training.
I had done stuff with thesheriff department for going in
and doing stuff within the jailand you got your essentially

(07:12):
riot armor riot gear on andmaybe you got a 40 mil for
firing tear gas, but everyoneelse just has shields and baton
and assumably now this isn't notyou can't 100, but assumably
nobody with rifles pointed backat you or handguns.

(07:33):
But you know what I mean you're,you're, it's a different
approach I think it requires thegovernor giving approval before
any individual can go in right.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
Sorry, and I mean, but I mean the person you're
trying to take down.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
Oh yeah, no one I'm trying to take down has a gun,
probably.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
So the approach is similar but different in that.
Yeah, so the training to yourpoint which you're saying is
where the you've had that kindof training where you're stacked
up on people.
There's a procedure and a wayto move through it.
But then the firearm piece withthe bad guys and the good guys,

(08:07):
having them really changes.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
I mean it's it's crazy, I and I'm curious.
I never got to be the opponent,I never got to be the terrorist
oh yeah and you got to be the,you got to be the hostiles quite
a bit.
Oh yeah, that's.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
That's the best and I'm sure, the perspective of
being from the hostel to thenbeing like on a team stacked up
to go in is radically differentoh, yeah, like, I would say like
, uh, and we'll get into more oflike how we, maybe the
progression, how we trained whatwe did, but like, honestly,
like I'd have killed everybodyevery time, yeah, as the hostile

(08:45):
.
Sure, just from the like youhave, just from just the
advantage of being set in aposition, pointed at a three
foot wide threshold door, wheresomeone's coming through in a
threshold and it's and that'swhere cqb is scary and very,
very, very, very hard to do, um,especially if you, your
opponent, is aware, you're awareyou're coming through there and

(09:08):
armed, or E and or equallyarmed to what you're doing, and
so the um, and if you're into,we'll get into it more.
But if you're in a more of likea civilian environment versus a
, uh, you know, tactical warenvironment where you have
things like grenades andoverwatch and thermals, all
these other things that likeyou're, like you know that
you're using, so uh, it's, uh, Iwas surprised how bad I was at

(09:33):
it, I think everybody was.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
You know what I mean?
I think everybody, regardlessof even people who had done it
before, were surprised at like.
I mean, that was one thing wedid do like I remember we did it
a couple times with ourtrainers stacked up with us.
We did do like I remember wedid it a couple times with our
trainers stacked up with us.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
The trainers died just as much as we did right,
for as cool as f and cqb bro,for as cool as they looked doing
the demonstrations.
Yeah, right, and they did looksmooth, they did look good, but
it's just.
That's why, like, I mean theguys I've talked to who have
done the done the real deal,they're like it's scary every
time yeah, and it takes a lot,takes a lot of guts to go
through there every time you doit before I forget hey, ken,

(10:12):
welcome to the show.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
Uh, if you're listening, we appreciate you.
Um, if you're not trackingwhat's going on, we did a close
quarters combat training.
Uh, here at the headquarters,where we had ourselves and a
good, oh, probably another 15homies plus a couple instructors
, show up and run through thecourse together, and the

(10:37):
instructors were all formermilitary.
Three of them were like formerairborne and did you know the
real stuff training for it inafghanistan, um, and then two
others, I believe I can'tremember what their mos were,
but they had worked together inlike um two-man cqb teams and

(10:58):
such like that.
So, uh, guys with some like real, like real skills and stuff, um
, and could actually properlyassess you and give you feedback
on, you know, a legitimate,almost like one-on-one thing,
because we were running teamsentering in of like either four
man or five man teams enteringin, and then you'd have pretty
much three to five instructorswatching and reviewing what you

(11:19):
did and you'd pretty much almostalways get one-on-one feedback
of like, hey, this is what youdid, this is what you did, good,
this is what you did that gotyou killed, stuff like that.
But anyways, here is the videothat you can play and it
immediately starts off with abang.
Bro, this is an ATF guy with anMP5 trying to get in through a

(11:41):
curtained window, and you cantell he's ATF not only by his
like stuff, but also by howpoorly trained he is Gosh.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yeah, let's see here, oh man oh.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yep, yep, yep.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Where were those other?

Speaker 1 (12:09):
shots coming from.
Were they through the wall?
Through the wall?
Yeah, we'll.
We'll scroll through thesevideos, kind of um and kind of
break them down a little bit,just from what we learned.
But I just wanted pat to seelike these threshold videos,
because it does.
It does show what we were beingtaught and even though we
didn't see anything like this ofcourse you can't learn this
while being taught the courseyou see it applied and you're

(12:30):
like, oh, shoot, okay, I can seehow what they were training us,
if you fail to do it leads topeople dying.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, and the other part not knowing about.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
oh, yeah, that cop just got shot in the head, and
then the other guy just ran away.
Yep, that dude just ran, ranaway, by the way don't stack up
outside of giant massive windowsin the daylight and the other
thing people don't, peopleforget about is like just that
stuff goes through walls soeasily yeah you know, yeah, the

(13:01):
wind, I mean, that's the thingis like a window is not going to
stop a bullet from hitting you,but people, people, treat
windows like they're.
What is it Cover instead ofconcealment?
Right, right.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
So yeah, it's a I'll say the way especially that
second group moved.
It's surprising, especiallythat second group moved.

Speaker 1 (13:27):
it's surprising like I don't want to say, like maybe
we were moving better, I don'tmean I was told by the end of
day that the improvement oneveryone's part was pretty
massive, um, and I just sent youthese so you can kind of scroll
through them with me and, uh,you know, perhaps I'll our
editor craig, will have thesevideos in the in the podcast

(13:50):
video this week.
That's a good point, um, but,um, first one up is, of course,
like, there's this atf guyhanging out front right.
I feel like this is just a goodplace to start to kind of break
through, like cqb training,what we learned right, but, um,
he's on a roof outside of awindow.
He's start to kind of breakthrough, like cqb training, what
we learned right, but, um, he'son a roof outside of a window.
He's trying to pull a curtainback so he can see inside and
decide if he wants to go in ornot.

(14:12):
And the whole thing is whoever'sin that room, because this
guy's outside in daylight isclearly seeing a silhouette of
someone with an mp5 trying toget in through that window.
And they just start firingrounds off through the wall and
I assume the rounds are furtherback initially, because they're
assuming there's other dudesstacked up with them and you

(14:32):
start seeing the rounds.
The first couple rounds go offbehind him totally oblivious.
He's like damn, there'sgunshots.
Boom, gets hit in the shoulderand he goes down covering his
face while more rounds areflying through right.
And it's one of those things oflike this guy's really lucky
that the guy thought I'll throwthese first seven rounds through
the wall where the other dudesare stacked up.

(14:53):
He had a clean ladder slide.
It was a pretty clean slidedown.
He was getting the heck out ofthere I think this just shows if
there's anything the ATFpractices, it's retreating.
This just shows if there'sanything the ATF practices, it's
retreating.
The second video is thesepolice stacked up outside of
like an apartment condo andthere's three of them bunched up

(15:14):
.
They break a door down andthey're pying from and this is
what they're training us in CQB.
Right, this is what they reallywent over and we got to see
firsthand.
When one of the instructors waslike hey, I'm gonna pie this
corner so you guys can see whathappens and he was the he
immediately got domed by a gelblaster right in the face, right
in the face, and went down itout and, like he literally said,

(15:36):
when he went down, he's likethis is an example of why you
don't want to always pie,especially if you're looking
from a bright environment into adark environment and pying,
being like the layman term,would be like just holding your
gun up and like kind of moot,like you know, moving left to
right, looking slow around thedoor yeah, yeah, if you think of

(15:58):
the door as a threshold and thedoor is open now you can only
see so much.
If you're standing flush againstthe wall and if you slowly come
off the wall an inch to yourleft or right whichever
direction would move you acrossthe front of the doorway you're
going to see a little bit moreof the room, like every step,

(16:19):
every inch, and that's slicingit.
You're, you're getting a sliceof this 180 degree field of view
beyond the door and it'sadvantageous actually to pie
corners and pie doors when youbelieve you know you're probably
searching for someone, butthere could be hostiles or like

(16:41):
search and rescue scenariosbecause you don't know what
could be over there, such aslike debris or an animal or
something like that.
And Pine the Door is alsoreally excellent.
And especially like in ascenario where you know you have
one threat and they're like inthe corner of the room and you
already have a positive ID onthem and you're just making sure
okay, are there any othercivilians, any other like you

(17:03):
know other non-hostels thatmight be in the area?
And I would say it's even moreadvantageous if you're imagine
standing outside a house or awarehouse, so it's not creepy
and they have their garage bayopen and the light's on inside
and you're out and it's dark out.
They outside, they can't seeyou, they just see the light,

(17:27):
you know, spilling out into thefirst 10 feet of their driveway.
But you can go across the full,you know, uh breadth of that,
uh, transition that opening,that threshold and you can get a
lot of like, you canessentially see a lot of what's
going on without having toexpose and reveal yourself.
When you're a pine, from thebright side into the dark side,

(17:50):
you're just a silhouette andgood luck seeing something when
your eyes are used to like thereally bright, like exterior or
interior, right.
So uh and that's what happens inthe second video.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
Yeah, and in this case of this video too, like he
wasn't pushed far enough, likehe was standing in the middle of
the door, so, like pine too,like, go ahead.
He wasn't pushed all the way tothe to be where he needed to be
, either.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
Like, I mean it's a wall so he doesn't really have
cover.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
But yeah, he had no real concealment he's right, but
I mean, but I mean andsilhouetting himself completely
as that door opens up.
He's just standing in themiddle versus he either needed
to switch that rifle over sothat it's first.
Also because that's the thingtoo, there's methods to all this
too where this guy he stuck hishead out, head around first,
versus his head's getting visualbefore his rifle is yeah Right,

(18:40):
versus switching or pushingover to the side, it's like,
yeah, it's hard to know what todo Because it's a bad situation.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
I'll tell you what they should have done.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Send a dog.

Speaker 1 (18:53):
I think the most obvious thing here is that they
ram that door with a Battery ram.
No one goes in and everyone'shesitating and everyone's choked
up and they should have rushedthat room all four of them they,
they needed it.
Yeah, because it's clear theshooter here wasn't ready to
take that shot until he feltreal good about it right, it's a

(19:14):
go or no.
Go like yeah, and that's wherethe the same thing, where, like,
once you're, once you're in thedoor, you need to go in yep, I
mean, and I've seen stuff alsotoo where, like they'll'll do
something to distract or evenjust corner, fire one of these
windows out and toss a flashbangor a smoke or anything in, just

(19:34):
to grab someone's attentionright as you cross threshold and
go in through the door.
Oh for sure, and the fact thatthey open this and no one goes
in there's a ton of hesitancyAgain because the door's closing
on them.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, they don't really officially have someone
in charge of the door or someonewho's pushed all the way to the
side.
And watching this video too,like we were saying at the
beginning of the show, it's likeI'd like to see what I looked
like versus what I thought I wasdoing.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Hey, the video's on its way out.
But yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2 (20:07):
That's true, doing a lot of editing right now, but,
like the um, in this guy's caseyou know he's doing his thing.
He's thinking about a billionthings.
He probably thinks he's on it,he's not.
No, from somebody like me who'sreally has zero experience
watching it going.
Here's five things.
He did wrong.
Sure, you know, and so like the, but in general standing in the

(20:31):
door also bro who ran away.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
That's the thing too.
Man is like if you all push in,it's a lot harder for your
homies to leave you.
Yeah.
You know, what I mean.
If you're all in that roomtogether with a mindset of like
we're pushing in, we're gettingthis guy, then like you're less
likely to probably leave one ofyour homies up there to die and
abandon them.
Uh.
The next video, though, is aclassic one of like standing in

(20:54):
the threshold exchanging fireback and forth and then, rather
than committing and goingforward or falling back, dude
just stands behind a wall, andthat wall is not explosive,
bruce, and uh, that wassomething we did, where I
remember a lot of people werelike kind of some people huff
and puffed, but uh, it was whenwe were doing two four-man

(21:15):
stacks and one of the stackswent up the stairs here to the
office and then they hit thedoor and the instructor's like
you're all dead and like whyhe's like it's a bomb.
It was a scenario of like abomb or explosive on the other
side of the door which, yeah,it's like cheating.
It was like, well, we're notdoing bomb defusal today, but

(21:36):
the purpose of that was tosimulate.
Can the team who first came inand secured, then now transition
to fill and secure the upstairs, because everyone who was
supposed to secure the upstairsjust got freaking, you know,
became a casualty.
Yeah, and it was also a pointmade of, like when we were
practicing breaching and, uh andum, examining the door before

(21:59):
going in, it was one of thosethings that made it like if you
lean up or touch that door toomuch or knock on it or hit the
handle too much, testing to seeif it's unlocked, there's a good
chance you're just going tostart taking rounds through the
freaking sheet metal.
Or if you accidentally testthat door handle and open the
door and it is tripped orsomething you just now tripped,

(22:22):
explosive, and you're all boned.
And it was just one of thosethings that I was like, wow,
okay, like there's a lot that,like we are going over that.
I saw a couple eye rolls atthat day and now I'm seeing this
footage.
I'm like, damn bro, like it'sactually, like it can be like
that in some environments not anenvironment I foresee myself
getting into.
Right, here's my thing.

(22:42):
I never, I never, ever, everwant or plan to right and
because it's that's.
It's on the offensive side tooit is on the offensive side and
I can't even think like.
I'm thinking like somehow ifI'm alive in a world without
rule of law.
You know we're talking end ofthe world as we know it, stuff,

(23:05):
and our women have beenkidnapped and they're in some
house or cave and we have to goget them back.
I think that's the only way Ican see myself doing cqb,
otherwise I'm like they have toeat and get water too.
We'll just pick them off there.
You know what I?
mean, like I'm just, I just I'mtrying to run through my head

(23:25):
like a real scenario where I'mlike, oh you know, it's a matter
of time, carpet dpe, diem,first one to get action, is
going to win this and clean themout.
Like no way, dude, you go.
Even if it's like three BubbaFuds with hunting rifles and
shotguns, you try going intothat house with an equal force

(23:46):
or less.
I highly doubt you're clearJohn Wick is not real.
That was the biggest thing Ilearned from CQB.
Right, it's like there is nouniverse where John Wick lives
in the first movie or the first,the first scene yeah, come into
his house.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
Yeah, yeah, and so yeah, definitely, and I will say
the the more.
The most applicable stuff aboutthis is the mindset ability to,
in the moment, um, make theright choices.
Not get panicky, do you know?
Be able to keep your head onyour, on your shoulders.
But then also you could say theother most like applicable

(24:27):
thing would be clearing your ownhouse from the inside.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
For sure, that'd be like a home intruder and you're
like Gosh damn, my kids are inthe basement.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
I need to go floor to floor until I get to them
Exactly that would be the mostApplicable for like the actual
Style or method of like.
You know that movement throughsomething Cause I'll be honest.
If a home intruder came to myhouse Now and Billy Jean and I
are in bed, you're just gonnalock the door and call the cops
and sit barricaded until eitherthey come through that door and

(25:00):
they get smoked or I mightwhistle for Takani to come up,
yeah but like you know you know,I would call her up, and if she
doesn't respond, then I'm likeall right, they killed my dog.
I'm smoking people.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
Or she's asking them to pet her.
Yeah, yeah, that's true, uh,but it is one of those things
where, like, even if there's ahome intruder, do I see myself
doing cqb?

Speaker 2 (25:22):
not unless I can't like I might between you and a
loved one unless they're betweenyou and something you need.
Yeah, like a gummy bear orlike've got leftovers.
I've got leftover steak in thatfridge, be damned.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
You're not taking my steak.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
You're not taking my Dungeons and Dragons Exactly, I
will say the real worldapplicability of what we were
doing is going to be very rare,very, very rare, unless you
really seek out a lifestylewhere you're, unless you're law
enforcement right exactly likethat's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
We're seeking that out, and even then, like we just
see so many videos of these lawenforcement guys who shouldn't
be doing it.
Yeah, or?

Speaker 2 (26:07):
just got no good reason, or you just never end up
in that situation, hopefully,right, right and so, um, I think
, when I talk to law enforcementor military guys, really the
guys who I think are really havematured through this.
They're on the back end of thecoolness of it, but y'all, to be
honest, I'm on the front end ofthe coolness of it.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yeah, like this is sick, I think it's dope.
I want to keep on practicing.
I never want to have to do itin real life exactly.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
But the guys who are on the back side of it, who are
really like been there, donethat type of stuff, like yeah
they always.
The one word they always tell tome is mindset, like, mindset,
mindset, like.
I don't care how good you are atyour marksmanship or you're
like it like any skill you have,like I really don't care what
you have, but your mindset in asituation is the, and your

(27:00):
ability to maintain that mindsetin a high stress environment is
the number one thing that ismost important and most looked
for and needs to be most trained.
And I think what's cool aboutthat is you can take this thing
that I think is fun and cool todo and you know, clearing
through a warehouse and actuallystress test yourself to a point

(27:23):
where just other areas of lifealso you can like it's not
seeing a shoot, no, shoot target, it's also being like all right
, there was a four car pile up,I just came up on the scene and
I'm not losing my shit.
Yeah, like that kind of like,like that mindset ability, you
know, and I think that's themost valuable thing to take away

(27:46):
from doing these trainings um,and the most, uh, I'd say, short
of.
If you find yourself in thesituation, then yeah, good to
have all of it, but the mostlikely case of needing these
things would be just your mentalstate and ability to cope in
the moment.
That being said, I do stillkind of think it's cool and I

(28:07):
like doing it.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
It is really, really sick.
If, like people who just don'tknow like what the hell we're
talking about, just watch acouple forward observation cqb
videos and you'll see what itlooks like when you are like
very, very highly trained,squared away and working with a

(28:29):
team, and even in a couple ofhis cqb videos, instructors are
correcting him and his team onthings that would have gotten
guys killed or something right.
Um, and we are, that's likewhat.
What you see in those videosare professorate level expertise
and what you see like what wedid is like elementary to maybe

(28:53):
I think we got to middle school.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
I think we got to middle school by the end of the
day I think we showed up toorientation, depending on your
like, like high schoolorientation, no.
I think we showed up to likethe.
This is what this is likemeaning.
Like, I think, because it youdon't even think we got.
We got out of fifth grade.
Well, it depends on what likewe're, what we're judging by.

(29:16):
Sure, I'm talking about?

Speaker 1 (29:19):
I guess I think what I'm talking about is
understanding of what it is, howto do it and how to recognize
what went wrong and where toimprove.
Recognize what went wrong andwhere to improve.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
And that's where I do think, if we're taking like a
large scale, like 30,000 footview on this, I think that was a
weekend training camp beforeyou go trial for football and
like because here's what I'llsay, what kind of football are
we talking about?
I'm saying this is before youlike, because let me break this
down just real quick, becausefor folks like you hear things

(29:56):
like SEAL, team 6, you hearthings like Delta Force, you
hear things like HRT, that's theFBI's hostage rescue team.
And then you hear things likeboiling down even way further,
it'd be like SWAT, whatever.
So, like those big three I justtalked about, basically their

(30:17):
job is cqb, like that is thetime like that that's their own
like, so.
So whenever you hear likenowadays, it used to not be, but
that's that's where war is atcurrently because what we've
moved to with it, so meaning,like these guys who are the
pinnacle of this, of you knowany anything that's cool stuff?
Those are the teams who are onit.

(30:38):
They're doing cqb, and cqb istheir mission.
Like there is like, there issuch a specific like that's not
even how you fight a war, likenow it's a piece of how you
fight a war, but like, so likeit's such a tiny little scalpel
or like, like microscopic, liketool in the bag of war fighting.

(31:00):
But those, those teams get themost recognition and the most
like um, like more, or like youknow, prestige, right, and so
like um, if we're going on thatlevel of like, of like, of like,
what does it take to be?
If you want to be in the mostelite quote unquote groups in

(31:21):
American military, you gotta bethe best CQB here on on the
planet.
So, so now, taking that now.
So that's when I say like,that's when I say we showed up
to.
That's NFL.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
Right, I think we did elementary school.

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Right, yeah, and so I think I do think also, I'd say,
compared to your average Joeout there, we leveled up, but
just to be like, there is stilllike there's guys who like, even
taking out all those Big threeteams, there's just guys who eat
, sleep and breathe this wholething, and I think that we got a

(31:59):
really cool peek into the, intothat world, you know.
And so like, like, and now,from here, if you want to keep
doing it, now it's time to.
Now you progress, now you learn, now you break it down into
tinier little, you microanalyzethis, that and the other.
You get good at you know where,literally, taking one step
through a doorway could have 50things you did wrong.

(32:22):
Okay, now we're going to breakthat down, break that down,
break that down, break that down.
And so, like the, I do think,from where we started that day
when we came in in, now we dohave a understanding of the
process, how it works, what wedo, but it's just like one.
Obviously reps are important,but then two, doing them good,
is important, and so I think,depending on how you look at it,

(32:44):
yes, we got like our, I thinkwe got through elementary school
with it, like to your point,but then also like to this other
, like what that the world ofcqb means.
There is still like a a lot todo.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
If you want to like keep moving through that, oh for
sure, yeah, that's what I'msaying and like, I think, like,
because I, I think it elementaryschool is pretty much like cool
, you showed up with a, youshowed up with the tools.
Now let's just get to the pointwhere you're not actually like I
think elementary school.
Now let's just get to the pointwhere you're not actually like
I think elementary school islike can we get to the point
where you're not killing yourhomies with the tools, where

(33:21):
you're not causing the, whereyou're not a hiccup and like you
know how to do it and you knowlike, okay, the only way
anyone's dying is if the badguys get us right, because now
we're squaring away enough thatwe know the process and the
maneuver and what the rules areand how to identify where to
fill in, and I would say mostpeople graduate in elementary
school at the end of that day,yeah, and for where it started

(33:43):
in the morning to where we leftin the end of the day, it was
night and day difference onpeople's ability to move through
that.
For sure.
And I'll say one thing too Ithink I don't know I got, I
didn't count it right, but I Idefinitely think I quote unquote
died as in I would, I wouldhave gotten.

(34:04):
I failed to find and identify auh shoot target.
And this was before we evenlike having instructors call out
you're dead, you're dead, right.
This was before we even likehaving instructors call out
you're dead, you're dead right.
This was just like things that Inoticed on myself.
There was, like I'm pretty sure, six or seven times where I was
like okay, I died, and I knowwhy I died.
I know how I died.

(34:24):
It wasn't a cheat thing.
It wasn't like well, no, I saidbang, bang.
You know, it wasn't anythinglike that.
It was like like I did notcover that corner because I just
assumed someone else was, andnow me and that guy both died
yep and it would, and like thatis the most valuable thing there
.
And I, and I think like theintroductory training right is

(34:45):
like you're going into a space,just think of it as like an open
rectangle, and in an openrectangle, how many angles are
there?
There's gonna be four, yeah,and you're going in through the
door.
Maybe it's a corner door, allright, you get to almost
eliminate one, but not reallybecause the dude's on the back
side of that door, in thatcorner, and so like.
It's all about, just like,making sure your understanding

(35:07):
of like.
Do you, are you aware of who ishandling what?
Are they still handling it?
Are you handling your area ofcoverage?
And if you're down, did someonemove in to cover you?
If someone else went down, wereyou aware of it and listening
and paying attention and able totransition to fill their need?

(35:27):
And that was, honestly, I wastold that was our goal.
I was told, by the end of theday, if you can get to the point
where you can recognize theneed and fill the need, we've
succeeded today and I think wegot there, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
And I think it was crazy too.
As we progressed through theday, we started with just like
your basic cardboard targets andthis was all no live fire, just
pointing our gun and sayingyeah we had bolts out of ars or
we had you.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
You know, we had individual designated.
A designated instructor wentthrough and checked each and
every single one of the mags tomake sure there was no ammo on
site in the facility.
People were told not to bringammo anyways.
No one even had ammo in theirconcealed carry.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
Right.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
And so it was like we were.
We were super squared away Yep,yep, yep.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
And so we were just.
But as we did this, as we addedin more and more layers of
complexity, once we added inhaving real combatants and or
just real people involved.
That showed you how fast thechaos gets real, when it was am
I supposed to shoot this guy, amI not?
Okay now, but I'm not supposedto shoot him, but I at least
need to handcuff him or you know, or get control of him, and I

(36:38):
still can't trust him.
You know it, like it was the uh, um, how I shot some civilians.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
right, right, I shot some civilians I was straight up
one time where I was yelling atthis instructor who was could
be a hassle, could not be ahassle.
I was like show me your hands,show me your hands.
And like he's like looking atme reaching his hands show me
your fucking hands.
I just like.
I just start pulling thetrigger.
I'm like bang, bang, bang, bangand he goes down and falls and
as he falls down and stretcheshis arms out, I just see a

(37:07):
gatorade bottle roll away ratherthan the gel blaster and I was
like shit.
Yeah, that one's on badge cam,though I told him to show me his
hands and he kept on reachingwhat.
I didn't have a choice.
There's literally a dead guywith a gun right next to him.
Like what was I supposed to do?

Speaker 2 (37:20):
no, yeah, it just shows you.
It's just like those little uhadditions of realism yeah, go to
show like where it's like oh mygosh, this is really, uh, um,
so stressful.
It's.
It's not a video game, it's notlike it doesn't just play out
easy, it's like it's yeah,there's a lot that could happen.
Oh.
So it's funny with some of theguys who had here the um.

(37:41):
Some guys were like playingairsoft instead of training in
that like it'd be like bro, no,like I shot you, you're dead,
yeah, and it's like there's alittle bit of going back and
forth with uh calls.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
You know I'm like you don't get it.
Yeah, like you both shot eachother.
Yeah, like, no, like you diedvery likely you're bleeding on
the floor yeah, and so, like Idon't know, I didn't feel it.
It's like no, bro, like youdied but you know so, you didn't
feel either when it was 308right, which all they're doing
is in that that case is likerobbing themselves, yeah.

(38:16):
Because if you win, at training.
But you cheat and or not?

Speaker 2 (38:20):
and cheat's a strong word there but you just kind of
like you know, don't take thatpart like, don't take it
seriously that like you failed,or don't take criticism, then
when it really happens itdoesn't matter that you trained
yeah, you know, yeah, and Ithink, um, one thing I really
loved was like I told the leadinstructor.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
I was like, and I told a couple of his guys and
two of his guys really respondedsuper positively to it, but I
was like, hey, please, please,please, please, help me see
where I choke up like, and Iwould go out of my way to ask
them after each run.
I did, I was like.
So I did this because I thoughtthis was the right call.

(39:00):
Is that good or is that bad?
Was that the right call?
Was that the wrong call?
There's a couple times you'relike I know, yep, I get what
you're saying and I understandwhy you think that it was the
wrong call and here's why.
And let's play it back.
And then there was a lot oftimes where I felt awesome
because I was like I did thisand they're like that was the
right choice.
That was squared away and I waslike, oh man, like I'm on cloud

(39:23):
nine because I feel like I'mgetting it, I feel like I'm
learning it.
Um, and still, even after thoseones where, like, I was told
like, hey, man, you made theright call, there are still
three, four times where I gotfreaking shot in the face you
know what I?
mean, like, right after that,and it was so like.
It was super insightful andvery rewarding and the way it

(39:45):
was so dynamic, which I thoughtwas like just a props to like
our environment here.
Like our environment here,everyone said throughout the day
this is hell, this is anightmare, right.
This would suck to do like reallife cqb in because you got,
you know, two levels and you gotguys who can essentially have
concealment while having eyes onyou.

(40:07):
I mean, there was that one time, pat, where you were playing,
uh, you know, op four and youwere in the freaking cupboard
and you came out after we hadpretty much secured the ground
floor and getting ready to leaveand you start, you open the
covered doors and start shootingat people and it was sick
because I saw you get lit upwith flashlights and lasers and

(40:28):
riddled oh yeah.
But it was one of those thingswhere it was like who on ground
floor didn't clear that?

Speaker 2 (40:36):
They didn't check it.
Yeah, no one checked that.
I love being the bad guybecause, yeah one, you're so
calm as the bad guy.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
It's so funny.
Like other guys, I wasliterally like, I wasn't
stressed, but I was funny Likeother guys.
Like I was literally like that.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
I wasn't stressed, but I was like it was kind of my
heart rate.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
My heart rate was up every time I stacked up outside
the door, especially when I wasin first place.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
And you're over, you're over, you're overthinking
every single like it's going tobe so dark yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
It's going to be so hard and we had the window
covered to the door so you can'tsee any.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
you can't cheat through the window at all yeah,
and I'll say too, since itsnowed that day it was.
Well, it was so bright and wecame into a dark room.
So the the transition fromlight to dark was.
I mean, we're in there with oureyes adjusted and you're
busting through a snow whitedude, you know door and and like
I'm just sitting in there happyand I'm about to shoot somebody

(41:31):
with a gel blaster.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
How many times did you get to stack up outside and
come in Outside?

Speaker 2 (41:37):
I think I did it at least over five, like over a
handful of times.
You got a good exposure.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
I got the reps in, but then there was literally,
like at the end of the day Inoticed I was getting eye strain
, oh yeah, like from going sobright outside and like my eyes
adjusting to that and thencoming in and it was.
It was weird, man, like it waslegit felt like camera exposure
in my eyes with how long it tookfor my eyes to adjust,

(42:07):
sometimes by the like, the, youknow the 20th, right, yeah,
because you guys ran a lot and Iran inside a lot, because I do,
I actually I really like justwell, it's also your target,
yeah, and like setting uptargets, setting up traps, like
rethinking, like what's gonnahappen to guys, and it's just
fun, yes, but it's.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
what's funny about that is one totally calm,
totally relaxed, like justsmiling on my face because I
know I'm about to gel, blast orsomebody, and then um, um, and
then the other piece being whenyou guys are coming in and

(42:46):
everything's happening, justwatching it unfold, watching how
guys come through and seeing.
I did enjoy, too, watching guysimprove and watching some guys
making the right calls and doingthe right stuff all the time.
And also I enjoyed when one guysnuck past me and he didn't see

(43:07):
me and I shot him in the backof the head and he was so like
uh, you can see it, he was.
Yeah, he was just like dang itLike.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
Dang it Like, cause it's not just it's not just I
died, I'm dead, like I am legitdead, because that was the
weirdest feeling, like doing itover and over and like when you
died.
I mean some guys, like you said, weren't taking it like serious
, but like for me, every time itwas, I was like gosh, like I am

(43:39):
not as good as I think I am youknow what I mean.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
Like I'm not immortal .

Speaker 1 (43:44):
I, I'm not John Wick and like this is an insane like
reality experience to be likemore majority of the time I'm
dying when it's CQB, yep and thefirst five runs there were no
targets at all.
It was just like no targets,just make sure the space is
clear.
And so it was like those are agimme.
I Uh-huh, and so it was likethose are a gimme.
I didn't get shot at the firstfive times.
After that it was like over 50%of the time I died.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yeah, and we ramped it up pretty fast on that and I
will say for the guys who, likeI do think everybody took it
seriously, but some people tookthemselves more seriously than
the training.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
Yeah, yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
So like, just kind of like a, and so it just yeah,
you're right, everyone did takeit seriously.
But like, just like the, thepiece being, if you um, pull
your ego out of it all the way,you're going to get so much more
out of it just by by lettingletting it happen.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
And I I had a.
I will will say too.
I think the ego part can behard sometimes because I'm very
used to the very curt, bluntcorrection from instructors.
I'm used to an instructorgrabbing me by like the head,
being like what is yourmalfunction?

(44:59):
You know, I mean like unf andlike so, like that's not, like
that's not alien to me.
There is definitely.
I saw a couple of times where,like these instructors that we
had, were they're great dudes.
I think they're great dudes,right, but they definitely were
a little too curt perhaps ormaybe too indirect with this.

(45:24):
And it came off as indirectbecause they're assuming this
person has the previousexperience and knowledge to
understand what they're tryingto get them to learn or realize.
And there was moments where,like I could see they're like
what are you doing fucking wrongright now?
Look around, what are you doingwrong?
And like they're talking tosomeone who's never had to look

(45:45):
around in a warehouse with otherdudes with guns and assume,
like, figure out, like whatthey're doing wrong, you know
what I mean, and so it like Isaw just some people literally
short circuit, which isn't a.
I don't think that's somethingagainst those people, but I do
think that's like part of thelearning experience and
something to understand is like,when you're dealing with people
who teach these kind of coursesCQB and things like that you're

(46:09):
going to be dealing with peoplewho have not had to approach it
from a inexperienced civilianmindset in a very, very, very
long time one person grew up andis indoctrinated into the
military, the other guy is not,yeah, and doesn't know that,
like, especially like, uh, let'ssay if, if someone came up to

(46:36):
you and they just said you know,like, what the fuck is your
damage, you know?

Speaker 2 (46:40):
like, did your mom drop you on your head as a child
?
Yeah, you know, you know.
And your mom drop you on yourhead as a child.
Yeah, you know, you know andgave you the full like the drill
sergeant ripping in certainareas of life, most areas of
life.
Those are fighting words.
Yeah versus like in a correctivewords or no, but it's like,
it's like I will, I will.
I think that, like I'm totallyshould be offended by you and I

(47:02):
should be offended that you saidthat to me.
Yeah, but from guys who camefrom the military standpoint
they're like no, I mean, thatmeans I love you.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
I'm trying to preserve you, I'm trying to
preserve you and sustain you.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
This is what I said.
You said to go fuck myself.
And he's like no.
I said I love you.
I thought that's what I said.
He's like no, I said I love youLike.
I thought that's what I said,he's like no, you said to fuck
myself.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
You said we all look like a bunch of monkeys humping
a football?

Speaker 2 (47:28):
Yeah, exactly what.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
No, I said I want the best for you.
Yeah, that's like so that'swhere, like the breakdown there
is, think both you need toprepare yourself when going to
get this kind of trainingwhether it's cqb or just like
you know, other kind of militaryinstruction or law enforcement
instruction like this um.

(47:52):
But I will say I'm curious tosee your opinion on this from
being the you know up for side.
So much um.
So I use the flux raider.
I went flux raider and uh, Ihave a very, very discreet, low
profile uh pistol mag um chestrig, essentially that it can fit

(48:18):
about like five 30 round pistolmags pretty easily and it's got
also room for like tourniquetsand chem lights or whatever um.
And then I have my backpackwhich would have the soft armor
level three plus in it.
Um, and that was pretty much myprofile.

(48:39):
And with the flux raider dude Inever had to swap sides to
clear corners.
Really I could just kind ofadjust with the way my head was
positioned on it.
I could just angle my uh fluxto go left eye or right eye
depending on which side I waspeeking right and the flux
raider, such a small, compact umposition was like there was a

(49:02):
couple times where I actuallydidn't deploy the brace you
could pull it off your shoulderor not have it deployed.
Push around that well I wouldhave it on the single point
sling and just up to go aroundleft or up to go around right
corners, and I saw a lot of guyswith like really bad handling

(49:24):
skills for their ARs.
Like everyone else was prettymuch running ars I think I was
the only person not running arbesides me.
Oh yeah, you were running cockgun.
Yeah, and people loved it.
People loved pat had a cock gunwith a red dot and a flashlight
on it.
It was awesome.
People thought it was thesickest thing in the world.
I was proud of it.
Yeah, you, I could tell youwere humble about it there in

(49:45):
the moment, but I could tellyou're like you were loving how
much people appreciated it.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
I did.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
I appreciate the attention um, but uh, it was, I
knew it was a good idea.
That made you tell me you'regonna do it.
I'm like that's sick.

Speaker 2 (49:56):
Yeah, that's sick as hell um, yeah, but everybody
else was running like uh,basically 16 inch ars, and if it
wasn't, it was 16 inch becausethey had a suppressor on it, you
know, yeah, or they have, likenobody had anything short ars,
but their pistol ars were, like,not that crazy short they were
still, I think the smallest oneI saw was like a 12.5, yeah, um,

(50:17):
all that said, though, therewas a lot of guys.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
I saw one handing their AR while moving and like
holding their AR by the grip upin the air while going up the
stairs and putting their handout to rails.
I saw a lot of guys.
I mean it was unreal.
How many dudes got freakingflagged?
Oh yeah, like just people notaware they're, they're tunnel
vision in looking at their sitesand they just are like pointing

(50:45):
their barrel at the back ofanother homie, which, again,
this is a safe environment to bedoing that.
It's a training environment.
Bolts are removed, magazinesare empty and unloaded.
Even if a round somehow foundits way in the chamber, it can't
go bang.
If you don't understand how itcan go bang from the terms we're
using, just watch a video ofhow an AR works.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
We made it safe and for the purpose that we knew
this was going to happen.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
Yeah, we knew there was going to be a lot of
flagging, and we knew there wasgoing to be guys role playing
out before who were going to begetting guns pointed at their
faces because they were going tobe the bad guys.
All that said, still it was oneof those things where there's a
.
It's not like it happens Like Icaught myself two times.
I'm sure it happened more thantwo times, but there's two times
where I caught myself flaggingsomeone.
Both those times, though, wasbecause they cross into my field

(51:36):
of fire, and, from myperspective, I'm like, bro,
can't you see my flashlight?
And like me pointing my gunthis direction?
But you just get tunneled in,man, and you forget.
And, of course, you can't seesomeone else's flashlight,
because it's not like alightsaber, right, it's an
invisible beam of light untilit's on the wall, and so there

(51:57):
was just a lot of things likethat where I noticed I was like
having to maneuver my firearm toavoid flagging someone, having
to maneuver my firearm to avoidflagging someone.
There's other times, man, whereI just saw so many guys just
straight up like I mean, justbad rifle skills, not the number
one most lethal one, I wouldsay, but the number one, most
common, the number one lethalone is you're just stacking up

(52:23):
with your gun pointed at theback of your homie or you're
going through the thresholdswith your gun pointed at a homie
and you're just unaware of it.
The most often when I saw waspeople taking their dominant
hand off of their weaponplatform, whether that's the
right or left hand, in order tosignal or tap or instruct,
rather than taking their supporthand off of, so they're calling

(52:44):
or signaling to the personbehind them hey, let's move, hey
, let's hand off of.
So they're calling or signalingto the person behind him hey,
let's move, hey, let's go dothis, and they're taking their
hand off their.
They're taking their dominanthand rather than their support
hand off their firearm to dothat instruction.
And it's like bro, what are yougonna do if you're taking your
strong hand, your dominant hand,off your firearm and signaling
to the person and then roundsstart ripping through that door?

(53:06):
You ain't got your hand on thetrigger?
Yeah, you know, um, but I'mcurious to hear your perspective
because there's so much I sawfrom the side of like dude.
Homie in front of me justkilled our like homie in front
of me just killed first man.
First man just got domed to theback of the head like and then
there was things I saw fromfilming because I was getting a

(53:28):
lot of good footage of the eventto edit a video and I saw a lot
of guys just coming in withlike bad maneuverability on
their rifles and personally I'mjust like I'm a civilian.
All these dudes are civilians.
None of these dudes are cops.
None of these dudes that cameto the training are going to be
cops.
None of them.
A couple of them are activeduty, but not in like this kind

(53:50):
of, you know, field of work,active duty.
And so with that, I honestlydon't think any of these guys
really should be training.
Not that they shouldn't.
I don't think it's the mostvaluable training to be training
on an AR platform like this forCQB, because that's the
likelihood they will be doingCQB with their rifle is so
infinitesimally small.

(54:11):
I think it'd be moreadvantageous if we did it with,
like pistols or flex systems orwhatever like their most
realistic thing is.
And there's one dude I know whobrought the AR that he legit
carries in a bag in his car andhe's like, yeah, if I'm doing
cqb it's with this thing,because it's in the car and it's
ready to go there and I'mgrabbing it.

(54:32):
So that way I'm not just haveto run it with my pistol, right?
But you know, it is just one ofthose things where I saw I'm
like dude, you're not in noworld are you running cqb with
your AR, unless it's your house.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
Right, yeah, and, and even still probably not Right,
and.
So, yeah, yeah, and the um, theyeah.
I saw all those things that youwere just talking about and I
think that to to your pointabout the, the weapon system
used in the moment, uh, to yourpoint about the, the weapon
system used in the moment, uh, Ido think that the most
advantageous training would bearound pistols or, heck, even

(55:15):
pump shotguns.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
I was like being like whatever, what is yours.
And and all these guys might belike saying bullshit I keep it
next to my bed.
I'm like, okay, that's fine,don't um, but um, you know, um,
but like the um, because, at theend of the day too, because we
had these, the gel blasters, wehad these little pistols, and I
think by the end of the day,some of the guys were pretty
keen on them because, I knew alot of guys were like where do I

(55:38):
get those?
yeah, b and because, um, yes,it's not.
You're not going to get actualmarksmanship training with these
, but movement drills and theCQB ranges is pretty hard to
miss.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
It's a lot faster than a Nerf dart, a lot more
accurate than a Nerf dart.

Speaker 2 (55:57):
Yeah, exactly, and so the ability to movement,
movement with a team, the safetyaspect, which is nice too, like
, yes, did we pulled bolts andpulled everything, but a hundred
percent, no one's dying from agel blaster?
Yeah, no matter what happens.
Right, like that sort of thing.
And then practicality beinglike um, if we're talking to

(56:18):
about some of the stuff throughthe day, would be um, shrink
teams to two to three man teams.
Really, really, you should runsingle to three man teams and
then most likely scenarios withpistols through a building and
then, because most those guysare, uh, concealed, carrying

(56:42):
handguns, right and and that'swhat you're going to have in the
moment of this sort of thing.
And so, yeah, I think that mostapplicable training is to run
pistols, run a mantis system,run a gel blaster, whatever.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
I was like mantis system is sick.
A good amount of guys hadmantis system.
Oh yeah, it was awesome.
I'm going to save up for onenow I was about to say.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
After I saw that too, I thought like, as the
trainings continue forward, thatshould almost be mandatory
potentially a potentiallymandatory item.
It's just 300 bucks it's a lot.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
There's a lot of a lot of boys who ain't got yeah,
so it is a lot of money.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
So mandatory might be a sharp word, but I'd be like,
if you want to keep trainingseriously this way, um, it puts
your weapon in safe and thenalso like the laser that comes
out of it, it's, it's superawesome, it's super accurate
yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
So great feedback on how accurate you are, what's
happening and so um but yeah, Ithink it was one of those things
too where, like, we're talkingabout a higher level course here
soon.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
Right.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
Of taking people who passed quote unquote, passed
this one right and would beinterested in more Yep.
And then I think it makes senseat like a higher level right.
Like hey, if you want to doyour 200, 300.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
If this is something you're going to do, if this is
something you want to train anddo and keep doing, yeah, it's a
good tool and so, yeah, I thinkthat most applicable, use a
pistol, um, and then also, andyeah, uh, out out more like if
you're doing outdoor stuff,field stuff, like run the ars,
and then, like we said at thebeginning of this, which was

(58:20):
there is a piece of this doingit, just because it's freaking
feels cool feels cool.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
So, yeah, sick to have your ar and be clearing it.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
So run, run.
The ar be proficient with thatas well.
But I think two-man pistolteams are the ultimate uh
training in that situation forreally getting uh, getting uh
what might actually couldpotentially happen and what
you're going to need to do then,moving to our I was thinking
about this same thing for ourchurch security.

(58:49):
I'm like we're going to comerun this here at at the, at the
shop.
We're going to come run two-manpistol drills?

Speaker 1 (58:56):
yep, because excellent that's going to be a
really good training, really funtime and pretty applicable, and
so I think that um, I was gonnasay too what do you think the
odds are that we could get intothe church to run some cqb?

Speaker 2 (59:12):
because I think it'd be we meaning the group that
trained here or our securityteam, our security team, our
security team yes, we could dothat, because I think that's the
most.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
hold on.
If you guys hear that that's mydog to connie, just excitedly
humping her not humping,slapping her tail against the
table.
So pat will give her some pats,um, but yeah, um, I think it's
one of those things where that,if I I mean honestly, it's a
toss-up, right, am I more likelyto do cqb in my house out in

(59:42):
the country, or am I more likelyto do CQB in my house out in
the country, or am I more likelyto do CQB at the church which
is in the downtown area of acommunity who's not very church
friendly, right, like it's nosecret that, like our town
doesn't view churches verypositively, right.
And so I think, like it'salmost more likely, that I'm
going to be running cqb style,uh clearing, from a position

(01:00:10):
where I'm already inside thebuilding and I need to now make
sure the building is secured andsafe as I'm evacuating people,
which I think would be prettyfun, um, and I think it would be
pretty advantageous for ourteam to do so.
No, for sure, and that's goingto be with pistols too.
Like we don't we don't have alocker of ARs and shotguns at

(01:00:32):
the church.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
Exactly, and I think, going back into the weapon
handling of the dudes, it's likeyeah, I guess you didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
I was just curious.
Yeah, you saw me running.
How bad was it with the, withthe flux, like, did you see a
lot of stuff where I was chokingup hard on that flux?

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
going around the quarters.
I think that's the nice thingof the.
The advantage of the flux isit's so short.
No, you probably weren'tgetting choked up.
What I didn't notice or see wasif, like you said, you were
able to switch sides as you camearound stuff.
I didn't see how effective thatwas or wasn't.
Where, like we were talkingearlier with the video of the
guy where, like where you mightthink that you're clear, it

(01:01:15):
still might be your head goingthrough first instead of your
gun and so, um, but for for allthese guys, you have to sit with
your gun for a long time andswitch it back and forth onto
each shoulder.
Practice pulling your weapon into walk through a door.

(01:01:36):
Practice with your offhand andjust practice manipulating your
weapon more and more and moreand more and more, until it's
literally so natural that it's apart of you.
If you want to do this thingand you know, don't work on the
John Wick-y type things of yourspeed reloads or flicking a mag

(01:01:59):
out with your you know, like,instead of pulling a mag, like
flicking it out and throwing itback in or whatever, like so
many different things, you couldbe like that feel cool, like
the coolest thing to do and whatI was running for a while was
and this goes into also how toput your weapon away on you was

(01:02:21):
AR with a sling practice pushingyour hand, basically putting it
in all positions, having it upin your strong position, having
your sling where you canmanipulate your weapon to your
offhand shoulder, being able tolow port your weapon in front of
you, push a hand through andhigh port your weapon at your

(01:02:43):
back.
You know so that you can.
It's especially if you'rerunning slings.
Get comfortable with all of thepieces of it too, because you
get tangled up in a sling realfast.
And and also, just, yeah, workon being able to make that an
appendage of yourself so you canpush it to one shoulder, push

(01:03:04):
it to your saw, to your, to yourweak side, push to your strong
side, um, while keeping yourdominant hand on and all that
stuff and like, and then that'sjust going to make everything
else so much smoother whereyou're not overthinking or
having to think about all thosethings.
But then there does need to besome more.
Do the mental work around, notjust thinking about, don't just

(01:03:25):
be target focused, targetfixated.
Don't um, don't be focused onwhat you think is the call of
duty way to do this thing befocused on, like what's safe for
your team, knowing everythingaround you, that everything
that's on you is squared away,and where's the need, yeah, and
pushing through that there andobviously, like I said at the

(01:03:47):
beginning, I'd love to see avideo of myself because I don't
know what I was doing.
It's easier said than done, butto get the reps in on that thing
.
And so if you want to be acqb-er and do you know, run the
drills and all that stuff, likethen you got to do it and work
on it, do repetitions and, um,the the biggest thing we talked

(01:04:10):
about the beginning was thethreshold stuff.
Like make sure, uh, you justyou can't get your, let your
eyes be.
Um, your barrel has to be whereyour eyes are, like you can't
be peeking around cornerswithout your weapon ready, and
that sort of stuff.
So, yeah, I think that justsitting there on your couch,

(01:04:34):
standing in a mirror, whatever,and moving and manipulating,
holding a weapon, is going to bethe best thing.
To always be aware of whatyou're doing and how it's
happening, uh.
So then, once you do it for forreal or in training, it just
comes, comes naturally yeah, andI I would say too, you know it,

(01:04:57):
practice the cool guy stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
You know, um, to an extent, right, right, like I do
think, yeah, no one had topractice a single reload the
whole time we were here, right,because we were running with
safety systems, so there was noreally any way of getting an
empty mag.
But it is one of those thingswhere I think, like, if you're
practicing your reloads forcompetition, practicing your

(01:05:22):
reloads for, like, fieldmovements or whatever, right,
and firing drills, I do thinkthose will be useful to you in a
cqb environment if you have todo them.
But the truth is like,hopefully, the cqb environment,
one, there doesn't have to be asingle shot fired.
Two, if you're doing it, youdon't have a lot of sustained
fire, because if you're in asustained firefight cqb it's a

(01:05:44):
bad day and like people left up,yeah, um, but no, yeah, I agree
with you like, for the mostpart is like if you and I would
say even I would even doubledown as like if you find
yourself like what pat just said, like give up the cool guy shit
to practice cqb shit.
Like look, if you want to dojohn wick, do some uspca

(01:06:05):
competitions, like those are setup with, you know, fake walls
and barricades, and thecardboard targets aren't
shooting back and you get toshoot, sometimes 8 to 20 targets
depending on the course of fire.
That's a lot of sick stuff.
You're moving fast, you'regoing around you're, you're
doing fast reloads and you caneven do three gun, where you're

(01:06:26):
firing and transitioning fromthree different weapon platforms
to engage various targets andyou really feel like John Wick.
That ain't real man, yourealize.
You know plywood and sheet rockisn't stopping nine millimeter,

(01:06:47):
let alone five, five, six or300 black at our buckshot, you
know.
And so it's one of those thingsof like.
You be clearing corners likejohn wick.
You're going to be catchingrounds through walls and you're
going to be very upset when youcome around one corner and you
don't see the dude wedge betweenthe fridge and the wall with a

(01:07:08):
12-gauge pointing at your noggin.
And so there's a methodicalscience to it.
Listen to the dudes who do thescience and listen to them when
they say you're dead and learnfrom it and have an open mind.
You can have a really fun timeand really grow your skills.
But I think that's ultimatelymy last thing.
Until I get more training.

(01:07:29):
I'm just going to continue topractice and rehearse.
I've been doing a lot of repsthis week though oh nice.
And on Sunday I went with areally good pistol competitive
shooter we're training for theModern Samurai Project's Black
Belt.
Oh nice, shooter we're trainingfor, uh, the modern samurai
projects black belt.
Oh nice.
The modern modern samuraiproject is this course training

(01:07:49):
course that goes around thecountry and they tour, and if
you go to their course, which islike 500 to 700 bucks, it's
usually like anywhere from liketwo to three days, uh, and it's
a lot of like really high levelpistol skills and fundamentals.
You get to also test for thebelts while you're there at the
course.
And let me read, let me readthe black belt qualifications to

(01:08:13):
you.
This dude I went with, he's aphenomenal guy.
I'm not going to name himbecause I don't know how he
feels about being named on, youknow, a podcast of stuff, but he
has easily the best attitude ofanyone I've ever trained with
and anyone I've ever receivedtraining from Just super
encouraging and optimistic andsuper enthusiastic about, like

(01:08:36):
you know, having somebody elseto train with or practice with,
and he made me drag my ass outin like degree weather with snow
out into the hills to do pistolfire.
So I know he's very serious andhe now knows I'm very serious.
So, uh, black belt standards,four drills.

(01:08:56):
Okay, first drill three and twodrill three yards.
Three shots to the alpha zone,the A zone, then transition to
two rounds on the head box.
Three by five card, two, secondpar time from a concealed draw.
So that's drawing fromconcealed one, two, three A zone

(01:09:17):
.
One, two head at three yards.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
That's fast.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
One shot at seven yards into A zone, par is one
second.
From concealment, bill drillseven yards, six shots A zone,
two seconds.
And then the last drill is oneshot, 25 yards.
One shot to the A zone, par isone and a half seconds.

(01:09:45):
Wow.
So we're training hard and I'mtraining with the expectations
of going for black and I will becontent if I get any of them,
because even blue belt is yourfirst drill, the 3-2 at two
seconds.
The blue belt, which is thelowest belt, is a three-second

(01:10:07):
par.
So most of these you don't evenget like a whole another second
added on.
So blue belt is still crazyhard and significant to get.
And the dude I'm training withhe's like three-quarter black
belt.
He pulled two shots when he wasdoing his black belt for the
bill drill because he was goingso fast, but I shot with him.

(01:10:30):
He's a real deal.
He's pretty squared away.
And, uh, I've been practicing.
I hung up a target in mybasement.
I'm using my range finder tomake sure I'm at the proper
range for testing the variousdrills and uh, I've been doing
my draws.
I'm getting a lot faster.
Dry fire mag it helps a ton, um.
But yeah, dude, it's, I'mpretty stoked.

(01:10:52):
I had a very shooting fullweekend.
Yeah, a lot of very big gunweekend yeah it was really fun.
But well, I don't know, pat I Ithink we kind of covered
everything.
But you know you got any finalwords here for people who want
to get into these skills?
You got any final words for thedudes who might be listening

(01:11:12):
that were there that day, youknow, because a good amount of
them enjoy the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
No for sure I appreciate the instructors who
came out and their expertise andthat was definitely generous
and awesome for those guys toyou know, come spend their time
with us.
And, yeah, for all the otherguys who came, I think that it
was a good group of guys, superfun to, you know, even just

(01:11:41):
camaraderie, fellowship, hangingout, doing something fun doing
guy stuff is super awesome.
And, um, I think that, uh, whatI saw was I saw a lot of guys
with kind of all different, uh,different backgrounds, different
walks of life, different skillsand, uh, you know, just wanting
to um improve, uh on theirskills and the.

(01:12:03):
It was a good time, you know,I'd say, like, if there was
anything to like be, like, justsay to encourage, you know it'd
be like take, if you want to dotraining, you know, take it, um,
take it seriously.
Not that guys didn't take it.
You can always take somethingmore seriously.

(01:12:24):
Push yourself to learn more,work on stuff on your own off
time.
Let the guys who know whatthey're talking about say what
they, you know.
Let the guys who know whatthey're talking about teach and
let yourself be critiqued,because that's going to
ultimately be for yourbetterment, because you're where

(01:12:44):
.
None of us are perfect yet, oreven great yet, and so being
critiqued in a trainingenvironment is the point, and so
allow that to not make youthink that you're not good
enough or that you don't want tocome back, but that you just
have more to strive for, andthat that's the whole point of
being there that you just havemore to strive for, and that
that's the whole point of beingthere.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):
Yeah, any, I think my feedback, for the instructors
too, was that you know, theinstruction was great.
Be confident with yourinstruction, that you have
something to teach.
I think there was a couple oftimes where I felt like someone
might've not said something hadI not asked, and I want those

(01:13:26):
guys to grab me by you know myharness, my chest rig, like look
, dude, I got something to tellyou and I want it like.
I want to be instructed andmolded you know what I mean and
um.
So for those of you instructorsknow that you have things to say
that are valid and educationalat the same time.

(01:13:48):
The flip of that, which is kindof like a paradox, is that be
aware of the too many chiefs inthe teepee issue.
And there were several timeswhere I think there was a
breakdown that was 15 minutestoo long, because there is too
many instructors trying to sharetheir piece of the pie when

(01:14:10):
they're kind of repeating whatsomeone else said.
Right, and it was one of thosethings of like be aware of that,
that syndrome, because ifthere's too many chiefs in the
teepee, given too muchinstruction, they start to
overlap on one another or maybecontradict, yeah, and they also
start to.
You just start to like have totune one out to listen to the

(01:14:32):
advice of another one.
You pretty much are just likegonna make a decision, like all
right, I don't like the way thatguy talks, I'm gonna listen to
this guy, and that's anunfortunate thing.
But I would say honestly likesometimes it's best to wait to
speak and listen, becausesomeone might have already said
what you want to say.

Speaker 2 (01:14:50):
Yeah, definitely, and the other piece being, too,
might have something great tosay, but people can only take on
so much information at one timeto then implement that into the
training.
So if it's uh, you know,especially in a really in any
situation, especially a beginnersituation, where it's like if

(01:15:12):
you're got to work at one thingat a time, versus having an
additional 10, 15, 20 things inthat moment, to now think of the
next time you do it, you know,so that'd be like, you know,
even if it's good stuff and itwas all good stuff, it's
information.
You can't have informationoverload where it's like, okay,
now I I was just barely holdingmy crap together, now I got to

(01:15:35):
think about all these otherthings that are now going to be
you know, really not conduciveto a good good, good training
and good retention, that'd be,

Speaker 1 (01:15:46):
the big thing, retention on those things yeah,
be gentle with the babies whileyou teach them.
Alrighty, I think that's it,pat.

Speaker 2 (01:15:58):
Classic sign off, just till next time, till next
time.