The Mick & Pat Show - Lives on the Line

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We take a deep dive into the heated confrontation between President Trump, Senator Vance, and Ukrainian President Zelensky that unfolded at the White House, exploring the complexities of diplomatic communication and peace negotiations.

• Exploring the realities of the Ukraine-Russia war, now in its third year with devastating casualties on both sides
• Breaking down what makes a protest legal versus illegal in America and Trump's controversial statements about campus demonstrations
• Examining the mask debate at protests and what it reveals about accountability and intentions
• Revisiting the 2004 "Killdozer" incident and how perceptions of Marvin Heemeyer's actions have evolved over time
• Reflecting on the human cost of war and why peace negotiations matter more than territorial disputes

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
are you leaving town for your birthday tomorrow?
Um, it's, uh, it's gonnaactually be.
It wasn't officially for mybirthday, but it is coming up to
my is like my birthday weekendor whatever, because we're we're
actually getting away beforethe little baby has the mouth
surgery.
Just, uh, been a pretty goodlong year of stuff with her and

(00:24):
then, with her surgery coming up, it's going to be like a 14-day
pretty intense recovery whereher arms will be bound in like a
straight jacket, basically,yeah, to keep her from putting
her fingers in her mouth.
Yep, yep, because she's gettingher palate reconstructed.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
This is hopefully the one and only surgery right,
could be the only one.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Sometimes, when you're seven or eight, you got
to have another one More of anorthodontic follow-up surgery,
but this would be the big one.
So, yeah, she's almost a yearold, going to get surgery done,
but we decided to do a getawayright before.
So we were going to go toMexico and fly down there and
hang out on the beach and wedecided to.

(01:05):
We toned it back just doing aweekend in the mountains so nice
.
It'll still be good.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, it'll still be really fun.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, with your little onegetting the surgery and all that
, what is, you know, the surgeryfor the cleft palate, like what
?
What do they do at the littleone-year-old stage?
Because it's basically becauseshe's at one right.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
Or close to it.
Yeah, so when a kid's bornwithout a palate or with a cleft
palate, they have to weigh inthe balance between the kid
being large enough to have toundergo surgery and then also
not being too old, that theyhave permanent speech
impediments and things like that.

(01:51):
So they try to do it between 12to 15 months old and so, um,
they will, yeah, you go underfor it, and basically they don't
add any tissue.
They take what's there and kindof on the sides of the top of
your mouth, cut it and sew itall together to give you a roof

(02:13):
of your mouth, to give you someform of a palate, yep yep.
And then there can be some likesometimes they have to do some
like cheek grafting things likethat up there, but they say,
hopefully you don't so, but yeah, they basically are able to
just close it off up there andit won't have a hard top palate.

(02:34):
Her whole palate will actuallybe soft all the way through.
So yeah, and then once thatheals up, then you got to learn
how to swallow and suck and talkand do all those things.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
So is that why most people with like a cleft palate
when they're older is if theyhave like a little bit of a lisp
, yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
That's a soft palate on the tongue, I think so.
Yeah, so she could very wellhave uh, you know, permanent uh
speech issues and things likethat She'll have to work through
and figure out.
Yeah, so that's coming up, sowe're going to sneak away to the
mountains and just hang out,the two of us, for a little

(03:14):
while.
Maybe go to some hot springs.
What part of the mountainswe're going up to the Collegiate
Peaks area?
Oh yeah, nice Hot springs upthere, and then do also doing
collegiate peaks area.
Oh yeah, nice hot springs upthere, and then do uh, good
springs up there doing uh uh.
Mason, do surprise me with aguided ice fishing trip.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Oh that'll be kind of fun.
I knew about this.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
I had to pretend not to know about it because billy
dream did the surprise for me.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Mason said oh, I'm gonna surprise pat with
something too.
That was good, isn't thatpretty sick.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
That is good, I like it.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
I like it yeah, so guided fly fishing, not guided
fly fish guided ice fishing yeahnice.
So, yeah, that's pretty cool,dude, that'll be fun, are you?
Are you a really big ice fisher?

Speaker 1 (03:59):
I'm not I actually I don't like it.
So Is it because Because I goout and I catch nothing?
Yeah, I've only been threetimes in my life.
Yeah, never caught a darn thingdoing it.
It just froze my little cheeksoff.

Speaker 2 (04:15):
So, now.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
so I say that I don't like it, but You've never done
it right.
I'm excited to go with a guideto a spot, Like you know, they
got the setup.
I think to a spot, like youknow, they got the setup and you
know whatever the tent and theheater, all the stuff, yeah, so
that'll be good.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
So have you seen the video of the guy who is reaching
to pull his line up with thefish on it and his phone slides
off his thigh and, just like abar soap in the tub, just goes
it just like down in the hole,perfectly just gone.
Bro.
Keep your phone in your pocketno kidding, yeah, because I've
seen a good handful of videoswhere, because it's so slippery

(04:51):
on that ice, oh yeah, phonesjust skate and they just go
downhill into the hole brothat's like the slip.
That's where it's slowly.
You know, uh, the point of likedegrees aimed down to, and so
everything is just going toslide into that hole.
Oh yeah, no one thinks about itbecause they don't realize how
it's slow, slowly starting toslope towards the hole, oh man.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
And I saw this super gimmicky commercial the other
day for this like phone lifejacket that activates when it
gets wet.
It's super bulky.
Where are you watchingcommercials?
Still, this is, you know, like,popped up on instagram or
something you know, like I was.
It should have been late nighton the.
You know, yeah, on three easypayments, yeah, type of

(05:34):
commercial, but no, it was.
Uh, it's this huge bulky thingon the back of your phone and if
you drop it in the water, itjust inflates, huh, and then
floats up to the top, which evenin this ice fishing situation
might not have been that helpfulbecause you could probably have
like, see it like, but notfloat up to the hole.

(05:57):
Yeah, you know, like, it floatup 20 feet away wherever I don't
know?

Speaker 2 (06:01):
yeah, the current has taken it away.
You just floating as he goesaway from you really quick, but
um it was.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
I thought I did what I did like about the product.
I was like that's a pretty coolidea.
Also, I'll never put this on myphone.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
You know, yeah, because what if it rains and
then it fills up like itinflates and you can't get your
phone out?
That's actually hilarious.
What if you're peeing and yougot a little bit left on the
drop?
You know you get calico pants,yeah, and it then inflates the
phone in your pocket.
That'd be an issue the amountof times I spill stuff.
I just don't think I want itjust like inflating in my pocket

(06:39):
and ripping my jeans.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
Or sweaty thighs, you know.
It's about to be summertime yougot a sweaty thigh that thing,
that thing goes off so itinflates.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
It's not like just like a foam, but it's actually
like a like, I think I thinksome sort of foam case would be
making more sense.
Yeah, just get a foam case.

Speaker 1 (06:58):
While you're like, while you're fishing, you pop
your phone into the foam caseyeah, that makes a lot of covers
your existing, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Here's my thing.
Yeah, cases with paracord onthem, like a case with a little
paracord loop, just do that andput the loop around your wrist.
Your phone's gonna be out ofthe pocket.
Put that around your wrist andthen that way, if you drop your
phone, it's just hanging on theparacord loop.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah, like my phone case has a little loopy, it's
built in, you can just put itthrough there.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
See, I think that's actually something that maybe we
should design.
Imagine this For when you'redoing the outdoor excursions,
you just have a phone case witha little metal loop ring built
into the case.
When you're ready you just runparacord through it and around
like a belt loop, so that wayyou can be walking and if you

(07:47):
drop in or you trip and catchyourself and you drop your phone
, it will swing, but it justswings down as far as your loop
from your belt loop is.
And then you're like, ooh,thank God Cause, otherwise I
would have dropped my phone, itwould have just clackity, clack
clack down the.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
Grand Canyon, yep.
Or if you like to scroll whileyou're taking a little poop, put
that lanyard on around yourneck.
You're not going to drop it inthe toilet.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
That's nag, honestly, only once have I dropped my
phone in the toilet, really yeah, and that was post-flushed,
standing up, having set it downon the counter.
And that was post flush,standing up, having set it down
on the counter, and I was goingto dry my hands and the like.
The movement knocked it offwith my hips and it went just
perfectly, sliding off thetoilet seat then into the toilet

(08:37):
and I was like poopy, dang it.
I got to reach down in there,yeah, but it was clean water, so
I felt good about it.
I just wipe it off with somedude wipes.
Yeah, headphones, though Nottoo long ago.
Oh yeah, I was trying to put myheadphone back in my ear.
Wireless earbud While on thetoilet and it was a.

(09:01):
You know you sit down and youthink you're going to poo.
Uh-huh, no poo, just gas.
You're like all right time toget up.
So I'm standing up, falls on myear, bounces off the side of
the bathtub right into thetoilet with pee and I was like
son of a gun.
So I fished it out, rinsed itoff.
I was like I it, I'll justrinse it off because, like it's

(09:21):
clearly not gonna get ruinedfrom the water.
And then I just put it in a bagof rice.
And then, even after the bag ofrice, I pulled it out and
rubbed like some like alcoholsanitization on it and I tested
it works fine.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
so I still put those headphones in, just pull it out
and go straight for the wirelesswet willy.
Just right in.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
No dog, no way no, dude, I'm gonna put a p in my
ear, even if it's in my old peedude Bro, that was always like
an insult as a kid growing up.
Just like dude, I'll pee inyour ear.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Really, that was one of them.
Oh, that was always one of them.
Oh, my goodness, think aboutthis.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
You pee in someone's mouth, they're immediately going
to wake up and know.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
You pee in someone's ear, they'll be like what is
going.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Going on is something dripping on me.
Is there a leaky roof?
That's pretty funny anyways.
Um, dude, a lot of I mean, youknow, I I want to say a lot of
trump derangement syndrome.
This week, a lot of tds, and Ifeel this week A lot of TDS.
I feel like I get a pass insaying that because I didn't
vote for him, so I feel like Iget I'm allowed to criticize

(10:32):
when I think people are freakingout and flipping out and being
deranged about stuff.
But I think what I've seen alot of is people on both sides
having kind of panic attacksabout stuff and I don't know if
it's as big of a deal like I dobelieve like there's certain

(10:55):
things that are like definitelyhistory making, but there's a
lot of it that I'm just like.
I feel like this is not unique,like I feel like this happens
every 40 years, 60 years, 100years.
You know what I mean.
Every four years, yeah, sure,right.
And the latest one is people onyou know pretty much both sides

(11:19):
of politics.
Like I've heard people say thatare, like you know, democrat or
Republican.
Like I've heard people say thatare, like you know, democrat or
Republican.
Oh, I don't like what Trump andVance and their interaction with
Zelensky just recently at theWhite House on camera.
I didn't like it, but I'veheard Democrats and Republicans
both say, hey, I really enjoyedwatching that.
That was crazy.
That felt like I got to lookbehind the curtain see how

(11:44):
things are going on and I, youknow, liked the way, you know,
trump and vance kind of stood upto what was going on and trying
to make sure they like theykept the show on the rail, I
mean the show on the road, um,and kept the train on the rails.
In regards to like how to handleit, because, you know, in case
you don't know, actually I guessukraine and russia at war and

(12:08):
uh, zelensky was here to discussum ukraine's involvement, um in
like peace treaties and likecoming to a deal, uh, that the
us would kind of, as well assigning a mineral rights deal,
as kind of paying back the USfor its support in the
Ukraine-Russia war, because, tobe honest, ukraine just does not

(12:33):
have the GDP to pay backanywhere close to the billions
of dollars I mean over almost$200 billion have gone to
Ukraine now.
I think that's right yeah,almost 200 billion dollars have
gone to ukraine.
Now I think that's right, yeah,um, and uh, all that said, uh,
mineral rights is a prettyeffective thing, because if that

(12:53):
occurs, uh, you know, then,like ukraine just kind of is
selling, like, hey, you know, ifthe minerals are here, you get
them, and we're kind of wipingtheir cost away, right, because
if there's not a ton of mineralsthere, they still, like deals
done in US, just kind of has theUS just has to deal with it,
right.
But anyways, all that said,they are out there talking about

(13:19):
the potentiality of the dealand Zelensky starts kind of
adding more to the conversationwhich, you know, it was clearly
like a press thing, where it wasjust supposed to be like, hey,
come on out, let's wave, smilethe cameras, talk about the
excitement to find peace and,like you know what we're going
to try to do to get peace andabroach um, zelensky starts

(13:47):
saying stuff like, hey, there'sbe any concession.
Uh, you know, we're the like wecould still fight if we wanted
to.
Um, also, you know, um, youcan't trust putin, like you
can't trust him for peace deals.
He breaks them all the time.
He broke them in 2014.
He broke it in like, uh, 2021,he's just gonna break it again
if we go on a peace deal.
So we need more support, um,and we need like something

(14:10):
stronger.
Uh, you know like a threatright, a threat of boots on the
ground kind of stuff.
And he's saying that andthey're kind of like, well, you
know, you're gonna have to make.
Like trump and vance are bothkind of alluding to like well,
you're going to have to actuallymake a concession, like you're
gonna have to concede some stuffRight To like that's what
happens with the peace dealsLike to stop the war, you

(14:33):
concede to reach a deal, right.
And Zelensky was like you knowit's not going to happen because
he's going to break the peacedeal and you know what?
You'll feel it eventually herein America.
And I'm summarizing in words,but it's essentially like yes,
there's a big ocean betweenUkraine and Russia and America,
but if Russia eats throughUkraine and the rest of Europe,

(14:56):
you will eventually feel it inAmerica.
And that just was too much oflike a, you know, allusion to a
threat of consequence, to howyou know america's handling
things or lack of engagement.
And so trump advanced kind oftore him to like pretty much

(15:17):
boiled down to like hey, youwere supposed to come out here,
say thank you, smile, say, hey,america, thank you for your
support.
We really, really appreciateUkraine.
I'm looking forward to peace,also looking forward to this
mineral rights deal with Americaand paying back our debt to
them.
And instead you kind of made ita warning and flag waving in

(15:37):
front of people and pretty muchput us in a position where if we
don't agree with you, we'redisagreeing on camera right now
with you as the president ofUkraine, and if we do agree with
you, putin is never going toanswer the phone at the Kremlin,
putin is never going to come tothe table to do an agreement.
So you're kind of like you'reputting us in a position where,

(15:57):
if there could be peace, we'renot ever going to reach it.
So now we got to be big dogsand kind of discipline you.
Right, we have to point it outand be like look, you're running
your mouth, you're sayingthings you have no right to say.
Just come out here, smile, saythank you, so that way we can
handle this shit behind closeddoors.
And I do think there was a lotof miscommunication.

(16:20):
I do think they misunderstoodzielinski to like I don't think
Zelensky intended to soundthreatening.
I think he wanted to sincerelylike make it sound like hey,
like we are not just going toroll over, because if we roll
over and just concede everythingto Russia, they're just going
to attack again and take more in, like four years when Trump's

(16:40):
gone, which is 100% a validpoint.
I'm not saying I have any ideawhat to do with that, I'm just
saying I get that that's a validpoint because that's what's
happened.
Um, however, saying that oncamera puts them in a really
hard spot and then alluding tolike one day russia is going to
come for america if americadoesn't do something now, you

(17:05):
know, you're kind.
That is.
That is putting the presidentin a hard position where he
needs to one look strong andlike fierce, like nope, that
won't happen, even if I'm gone,that won't happen because my
vice president's here, you know,and so put them both in a
position where they got to looklike war dogs, ready to get mean
, and it just was ugly.

(17:25):
And I think the biggest thingtoo is like Vance pulled up.
He's like you went campaigningfor the other side, yeah, and
we're still here trying to helpyou out, like yeah, shut your
mouth, say thank you and I getit.
I get it.
Cameras are on.
You got to look tough.
Probably could have totally gonedown differently if there
wasn't media and everyone in theworld watching and Fallout on

(17:51):
down differently if there wasn'tmedia and everyone in the world
watching and fallout is fallout.
But what we do know we don'tknow how russia is responding.
We haven't heard anything aboutrussia's response to what we,
what happened and all that.
But we do know that zelenskynow has come back to the table
agreeing to sign the mineralrights deal and work towards
peace, and that's about.
You know, 24 hours after thefact of the, of the huge spat on
media on television.

(18:12):
But I don't know, pat, I'mcurious to hear what you think,
because I I definitely, whilewatching it was like oh, whoa,
that maybe dial it back.
And then I was like I get whatthey're saying, I get what both
sides are saying.
And then I was afterwards justlike I don't freaking know, I
don't know what should have done, been differently, other than
it should have just probablybeen like no mics, just smile

(18:34):
and wave.
Let's go into the white houseoffice or, you know, the
president's office, and thenclose the door and do it there
yeah, the yeah, the one.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
yeah, this administration is rolling out
tons of controversial things androlling out lots of lots of
things fast.
I do think that seeing a littlebit from a little bit of

(19:11):
Zelensky's side too, as as apresident too, is like he has to
appear and or he has to like,represent and be strong as well,
but also he's getting in.
This is you know a guy who he'sproven himself over the last
few years as a leader in thecountry.
But you know a guy who he'sproven himself over the last few
years as a leader in thecountry.
But you know a guy who is acomedian, tv show type guy

(19:38):
hopping in the boardroom withthe apprentice.
you know CEO guy like guy likeum, so he's definitely gonna be
out of his depth trying to likegame and negotiate in that
setting um especially publicly,because I think that, um, yeah,

(20:00):
unfortunately, because, um,because it is like this was a
media televised event, um, thatmeans everybody has to be kind
of playing the game full bore,you know, thinking about what I
say, how I appear, what I do,versus.
All right, let's, let's closethe door, let's talk about these

(20:23):
things.
What are the key issues?
What do you guys need?
Here's what we need, here'swhat we're not going to do,
here's what we can do.
You know, and not for, and notfor the sake of, not for some
secrecy, backdoor deals, but forjust the sake of like, turn the
cameras off, like, even like onour you know, we got a little
little digital radio show goinghere.

(20:43):
We speak and interactdifferently here than we do when
we turn off the record button,yeah, and that doesn't mean
we're not genuine, it doesn'tmean that we're not coming
forward and putting stuff outthere that we don't believe,
like, that we don't believe in.
But the way that we presentthings or the way that we
communicate is different, isdifferent.

(21:10):
And so now, on a way, hugescale, when you have such a big,
important meeting happening andit it taking, um, instead of
having the meet and greet photoop, talk a few, talk through a
few things, even talk throughsome real things, but then get
to the nitty gritty.
You know, um, with the camerasoff, um, that took a turn that
forced people, both on bothsides, to have to posture, stand
strong.
And you know, frankly, Zelenskydoesn't have a leg to stand on

(21:33):
because, to Trump's point intheir conversation, they
wouldn't have lasted three dayswithout US support.
It would definitely not, wouldhave lasted three years.
It's been three years on thedot.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
That's crazy.
It started.
It's crazy that it's been threeyears bro, because I remember
all of us were like, hopefullyit's over in six months one way
or the other.

Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yeah exactly, and so it's been a three-year-long war.
Tons of deaths on both sides.
It's a nightmare war, any of?
you guys out there watching theyou know the Ukrainian war
footage.
Come back it is.
You know, it's just a nightmare.
These guys are out there,really in hell, the way that
they're having to fight thisthing out and World War One

(22:12):
style trench it up and really nomovements being made one way or
the other.
At this point it's just astagnant stalemate of young men
dying.
And so, yeah, zelensky does nothave a leg to stand on when it
comes to how he addresses theleader of the country who kept
him in the game this long andreally, maybe or maybe not the

(22:37):
country that put him in power inthe first place.
Either Russia or America haschosen the leader of Ukraine for
the last handful of presidents.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
Well, people will say no, no, no, it was by election.
The truth is is like you lookinto what's going on and the
NATO NATO put a ton of effortand funding into Zelensky.
And if not getting, and theydidn't appoint him necessarily,
but zielinski was voted for andhe won by.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
Like you know, he had like 75 of the vote and and it
was one of those votes that wasvery similar to the 2021 with
biden, which was voting againstthe other guy.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
Yeah, well, I don't know, I don't know enough.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
Maybe well, because because meaning the narrative
was or what they're trying to dois just get put anybody in
there who's not going to be aRussian puppet oh yeah, right.
So that was kind of the thingof getting him in there.
And not to discredit Zelinsky's, I do think people come after
him too hard for, like you know,they show, they show footage of

(23:46):
him, like his his former careeras a comedian doing goofy stuff
on stage and like no wonderthis is such a shit show because
look who's leading this country.
It's like hey, listen, zelensky, you know, yeah, uh, comedian
actor guy also is um is doingdoing the job too.
Like you know, I think lots of,lots of people like overly

(24:08):
discredit his like leadershipcapability, ability to ability
to also rally and win over largeparts of the world.
You know, I mean that's a,that's a key piece to the
success of Ukraine up to thispoint is having the ability to
have people stand by you.
I mean there's still stillpeople, there's still ukrainian

(24:29):
flags and people's yards inamerica and on their um, you
know whatever, on their cars andthese things, you know, and so
but it's the interaction.
I don't think that trump orvance was out of line in the way
they interacted.
Um, I think they were justlaying it down thick and you

(24:51):
know what, honestly, so manypeople at this point in america
don't have conversations likethat conversation they were
having.
Yeah, they don't sit in a realheated, intense conversation,
let alone one that's high stakes.
That really does matter, um,not just economically, but in
this case, you're playing withworld war three.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah, that was the crazy scene.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
Yeah, the way he just like laid into him with that
one yeah, and you just see, itwas like it.
It sounded to me like a guy whowas just telling, kind of
laying it out, how it was, yeah,and with the guy with the
authority in the room, homefield advantage and, um, all the
car, like all the cards, whichis what Trump said multiple
times, which is we have all thecards.

(25:34):
That was one area where I thinkthere was a language barrier
issue, where Trump's like wehold all the cards and Zensky's
like we're not playing a gameand I don't think I think he was
like.
That was a little part of theconversation where it was like
Zelensky kind of thought Trumpwas saying like is this a game

(25:57):
to you?
He's like it's not a game to me.
And Trump's saying, usingAmerican colloquism, you know,
saying you know, hey, we've gotthe cards in our hand.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
And I kind of do get like I like I saw zielinski a
couple post-interviewconversations where he's like
you know, when someone says yourcountry is a mess and your
cities are destroyed and yourmen are dead, I see that as
insulting, that like our.
But like ukraine is not gone.
Ukraine still exists.
Ukraine is and I could see likeone.
The facts are we've all seenthe footage Insane destruction

(26:33):
in cities, like there are wholevillages and communities gone
and erased.
There are a lot of dead men.
There are a lot of dead womenand children.
There are totally annihilatedcity blocks.
Yeah, I get.
That's not all of Ukraine.
Ukraine as a people, ukraine asa nation, still stands.
There are still people whowants to be there.
However, let's be real, dog.

(26:55):
When you have a nation that hasan insane amount of women and
children who have fled it to beasylum seekers in other nations
and you're having to get homiesat the border to essentially
draft them into the war likeyou're talking about, like the

(27:16):
annihilation of a country whenpeople pick up and have to leave
, you're talking about theannihilation of a country.
And I know that's can come offas an insulting thing, I know
that could be offensive, but,dude, if you want your country
to return and survive, you needto start thinking in the
perspective of like, okay, let'sstop the damage here.
And I do understand, like yep,that could be offensive to me as

(27:39):
a leader, because there's somany men still fighting and
people who gave their lives andstuff, and like there's still,
like you know, people rebuildingUm and people who gave their
lives and stuff, and likethey're still, like you know,
people rebuilding um, but itwon't last that way forever.
You know, if you're not, ifyou're not careful, and if you
don't find peace and I thinkthat's a big thing too is like a
lot of people just don't wantto admit it.

(28:01):
But like the war is over, dude,russia has not lost the ground
they've taken for almost overtwo years now.
The war is done, dude.
Like all that can happen now isit to become Ukrainistan.
You know just a freakingdrag-out fight of just constant

(28:21):
death for the next however manyyears.
You know 10 years, 20 years.
Just like you know, knowanother country in the middle
east that's just in constantgridlock, war.
Or you can have some concessionhere and be like all right,
russia, you keep what you got,um, and ukraine will become a
member of nato, uh, but you gotto return hostages and stuff and

(28:43):
there has to be a ceasefire andthere can't be any like
aggressive, like acts ofaggression taken on either side,
um, and but like dude, it's,it's done.
Man, the war is over.
Russia got and russia's notalso trying to advance anymore
like they're, they're trying tojust like hold on to what they
got.
Um, I still think russia's anaggressor.

(29:04):
I still think russia's in thewrong for what they did.
I think putin is in the wrongfor what he did.
However, like I do thinkukraine also, you know, has to
accept the unknown, understandlike sometimes there's losers in
war and like when, and ukrainehas lost this war, like it's, it

(29:24):
has lost it.
It cannot win on its own, andthe and trump freezing all aid
to ukraine is a death knell.
Yeah, like nato, europe supportis not even going to be
remotely enough.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
Um so no for sure.
I was just looking at thepopulation of ukraine.
They've been.
Ukraine's been in decline since1993, which is wild, just like
a steady, like other countriesare, just like even north korea
and like canada's climbing like,going up steady and then.
But they've been in a decline.

(30:00):
And then there is, you can see,on the date day the war started
, they've lost about 10 millionpeople of their Like have left.
10 million people have left oftheir yeah, was it 44 million?
now they're at 37 million, butanyways, but the just wild to

(30:23):
see it.
So also, it begs the questiontoo, in general, of what's the
deal with this country for thelast 30 years being in decline,
like um, would be indicative ofsome something that definitely
isn't a type of country thatcould stand on its own without
support, and without much lessagainst a country like russia

(30:47):
and it's sad, dude, it's sad.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
I don't want to see any nations annihilated, you
know what I mean?
Um, I don't want to see anypeople's group like forced to be
asylums or have to leave, um,and that's why I think, like you
have to, you have to swallowthe pride and accept, like there
need to be concessions, samething with russia.
Russia needs to concede.
And here's the thing, dude,what's the predicted death like?

(31:10):
It's like russia's predictedcasualties from this are like
that was like 500 000 orsomething like I think that's
ukraine is 500 000 alone I'lldouble check.

Speaker 1 (31:22):
yeah, I mean, it's um , it's a lot of people and you
know the like you know, and then, especially early on in this,
you had like some mass gravestuff going on villages getting
wiped out civilian casualtiesand these things, yeah, and you

(31:47):
know, what's interesting to meis a lot of people don't see
this war as one that started in2014.
I really do see this as a warthat started in 2014, had a long
break and then really firedback up again in 2022.
Um, because the this donbassregion has been really something

(32:09):
that's been fought over quite abit, um for for quite some time
.
Um, yeah, are you finding anynumbers over there?

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Um, definitely not accurate ones.

Speaker 1 (32:24):
Yeah, that's.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
that's the hard thing to know, like it's crazy
because, like you know, thenumbers all over the place, just
because it's of course like youknow, it is a war game, but, um
, it looks like the russiaupdated its claim.
This is I'm just going off ofthe latest wiki edits, right, uh
?
Mid-december 2024, russiaupdated its claim of ukrainian

(32:48):
military casualties to almost 1million killed and wounded, of
ukrainian yeah, since 2022 since2022, yeah, since this fight um
, which is like no way, dude, no, no way.
There was a million.
Leaked US intelligence documentcited the Russian FSB that

(33:12):
Russian forces suffered 110,000casualties by the 28th of
February 2023.
See, these numbers just likeare so skewed and flipping back
and forth Like there's no waythere's been a million.
There's not even been a millionUkrainian soldiers.

Speaker 1 (33:28):
Right.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
A former Ukrainian prosecutor general, also a
member of the opposition party,european Solidarity, said on
Ukrainian television in January24 that around 500,000 Ukrainian
soldiers had been killed orwounded.
So 500,000 casualties,casualties, not 500 000 dead, um
.
But yeah, so I mean, if we'relooking at just like the

(33:54):
estimates of like how many havedied in total, I mean we're
probably looking at close tolike I'd imagine, one and a half
to two million casual likecasualties as a whole, you know
of like dead, wounded, um andmissing, and that's like not
just you know military butcivilians as well.
Right, but it's just prettycrazy, man.

(34:18):
It's hard to wrap your headaround a number like that and
like with this conflict, becauseI think we're so used to like
you know Americans are used tolike the global war on terror,
that war of like 20 years andtotal death.
Total American death tollrelated to that was sub 20,000.

(34:38):
I think, if I remembercorrectly, and the like overall
casualty was estimated to belike under 200,000, entire
entirely.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
I have to look up the like guat numbers again yeah,
yeah, it says uh stuff sayingyou know, basically, 7 000
americans dead yeah, g-wattstuff, but I'm thinking of total
casualties, total casualties,um, total casualties, total
casualties.
This is a bad number.
Civilians that have been killedin the GWAT 387,000 people.

(35:14):
That's a bad number.
That's how you makegenerational war.
Yeah, no kidding.
I mean yeah, not good.
I mean yeah, not good, yeah387,000 categorized as civilians

(35:37):
.
Yeah, it's crazy.
Yeah, for Russia, ukraine, Imean, there's only two ways to
go, and that's for both sides tobe okay with where the kind of
the lines stand and agree tothem, or to just keep fighting

(35:57):
it out yeah, you know, yeah it.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
I do think that ultimately, like I do ultimately
agree with zielinski thatwhatever happens now is only
good for four years, unless wehave another very strong and
feared like president you knowwhat I mean.
Like if, if there is apresident that just comes in and

(36:23):
, you know, somehow wins it, butit comes off soft and stuff,
like there's no, there's nopeace, that would be held, yeah,
um.
So anyways, with that um, theother thing they got people
freaking, losing their minds is,uh, trump's latest like not

(36:44):
latest I, but a tweet he let outthis week about how anyone
who's partaking in illegalprotests will be jailed and if
they're illegals they'll be exlike or not illegals, but if
they're immigrants they'll beremoved from the country.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
And this was for he was speaking specifically to
colleges, yeah, colleges.
He said all federal fundingwill stop for any college or
university that allows illegalprotests and that agitators will
be imprisoned or sent back totheir countries where they came
from.
And then also asking, and thensaying, demanding, to not wear
masks at these things.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
Which I saw All right .
So here's my first thing onthat.
I'm like my first questionimmediately what's an illegal
protest?
You know how I answered that.
I looked up definitionsunderneath covid.
What protests were illegalunder uh covid?

Speaker 1 (37:43):
those are get some rowdy legal protests then, I
guess well, no, because a lot ofthe protests were illegal.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
but then there were legally sanctioned protests that
were exempt, right, okay.
And so I was looking at, like,how they categorize, because you
know, we're not in COVID, andimmediately someone's knee jerk
reaction might be like Mick, youfreaking tard, we're not in
COVID, we're not at risk ofspreading disease.
Yeah, freaking tarred, we'renot in covid, we're not at risk

(38:11):
of spreading disease.
Yeah, and I would say to that,yes, but the the justification
they had for um, outlawingprotests and specific protests
and stuff during covid was dueto its danger to others.
Right, like a protest thatbecomes violent or is like a
danger to to the public is nowillegal it's not necessarily a

(38:32):
riot yet, but it is because itis illegal, as well as one that
damages property.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
And then there's a few more categories of like how
protests become illegal withoutbecoming riots, and that's what
I saw like in general, that I Iwas scrolling the old Reddit
page and it was the.
Every other post was about thisTrump tweet and everyone losing
their freaking morals.
And the number one uh likecomment, like it was almost at

(39:00):
the top of every single one ofthese things Everybody was
liking and loving on.
Um was um, like there's no suchthing as an illegal protest, or
so much for the first amendment.
Or like these, like these areagainst my rights.
Every protest is legal andthat's what I, where I'd like to
say.

(39:21):
There's a definition of protestthat is protected by your
constitutional right.
There's another type ofprotesting that's no longer
protected Because you know whatI can't do All sorts of stuff.
There's all sorts of things youcan't do Just because I don't
like it.
I can't just weld on a bunch ofsteel plates to my bulldozer

(39:47):
and just go.
You can't do that.
Go in an act't do that.
Go in an act of protest.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
It was an act of protest, right oh well, are you
talking about doing somethingmore than just welding steel
plates to?

Speaker 1 (39:56):
the dozer, yeah, well , yeah, and then taking it out
around town, and just you know Imean you can drive a bulldozer
around town knocking overbuildings.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
Oh, I think that.
I think you can't knock downbuildings with it.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
I disagree with what they believe in or how they
treated me.
That's true, just because I'mlike, listen, big city burrito.
I don't like the way that youprice your burritos because
that's my opinion.
They're not as good as theyonce were, because that's my
opinion.
I can't just come in here andthrow a brick through your
window in protest.

(40:29):
That is an act of protest.
Guess what?
Reddit feed people.
It's illegal, so anyways, okay,I think you gotta.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
I think you gotta do a little bit more here to help,
like, outline what makes itlegal right it's like yeah it is
because they're, because, Iwould say, throwing bricks
through windows is not protests,it's rioting.
I'd say it's effective.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
Okay, I'm not saying it's legal.
I don't think it's thateffective.
Throwing bricks through windows.
It gets people's attention.
That's what I'm saying in anactive protest you want to get
people's attention.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
I'll say this hey, anyone who's listening right,
throwing bricks in my windowwill effectively net you
returning fire.
I guarantee you, if I catch youthrowing bricks through my
window at me and my family, myfirst response will not be like
oh my gosh, I guess I better dowhat they're saying.
Or?

Speaker 1 (41:25):
like man.
I really think that's beautifulwhat they're doing out there.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
If only I could do something, but it's protected
underneath their first amendmentexactly um, okay, here's the
thing, pat you get.
You do have to outline forpeople, because a lot of people
aren't going to accept just likea blanketing, like that's not
protected, right, and of coursepeople be like well, yeah,
throwing bricks through windowsis rioting.
It's literally like when aprotest becomes an event that

(41:50):
can cause violence or harm toothers, and like by harm they
mean like literal physical harmwhere, like if a protest on a,
let's say, let's say you'reprotesting, but your location of
protesting is literally outsidea hospital, like you will be
moved off property by lawenforcement and you might be

(42:11):
arrested because you'reprotesting, could be literally
impeding life-saving measuresfor another individual right or
um, if you're protesting on acollege campus, right and um,
you are getting into the pointwhere you're barring people from
accessing their resources thatare provided to them and funded

(42:33):
by the state.
The state is funding thiscampus, so students can then be
there to learn and attend class.
You are actually violating theirrights and therefore your
speech is now inhibitive and itis no longer protected.
And there's like this is notMick making stuff up?
There's a lot of precedent caselaw here about how, when you

(42:55):
can protest and where, andespecially when it comes to
federal property.
I know a lot of us think on theright-leaning, more
conservative side well, if mytax is paid for it's federal
property, it's public property.
I should should be able to doit.
Truth is is that when you'reprotesting on federally funded
property like that, the fedgovernment has the right to

(43:16):
withhold your right to proteston that property and that's why
permitting protest permits existright, because you need to get
a permit to protest there.

Speaker 1 (43:38):
So that way you're not disrupting others access to
that public space.
There's a war going on on theother side of the ocean between
two groups of people who'vehated each other and warred for
a long time.
But then on this college campusthere's people who subscribe to

(44:00):
the religion of the peoplegroup who's fighting over there.
You know like, say, if you're ajew, um, and like people are
like angry about you being.
People are like no jews on thiscampus, yeah, and then they're
like you're telling me that'snot protected, protesting, and
then they start like hitting youand like spitting at you, not
letting you go to class.
They start saying stuff likejihad, yeah.

(44:23):
And making you hide in yourdorm room yeah, um you tell me,
that's not protected, that'sillegal.
Oh wow, that's crazy dude.
I think the orange man got alittle tired of on campuses some
of this.
There's not campus protestsgoing on right now about seed

(44:45):
oils in their cafeteria, whichmaybe they should be, but no,
the protests have become violent.
Lots of people have gotten hurt.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
Lots of people felt very unsafe on both sides,
particularly on one side.
I'll be honest you don't see aton of injured people on one
side.
You do see a lot of Jews beatup on college campuses, but
you're not seeing a lot of likethe Muslim kids getting beat up.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
What I will say is when, when, the, when the Jewish
people decide to engage, itdoes become violent very quickly
, Like cause, it's like, it'slike a I'm not, I'm not, I'm not
a.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
I'll say this I've never, I've never found myself
winning the art in argument withsomeone of like the Jewish,
like faith, Like they're they'revery good at arguing and very
good at getting you heated upand or and or what I'm dealing

(45:49):
with it?

Speaker 1 (45:50):
I don't have to.
No, I'm not responding to this.
Okay, now it's like the switchflips on, like I'm not dealing
with this shit anymore.
Or and or there's hate on thatside too for the other group.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Oh yeah, no, don't get me wrong.
I'm not saying like there's no,no, neither group doesn't have
like violence or sure.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
but hey, on one side and far, there's a lot of,
there's a lot of people,misinformed, young bleeding
heart kids on college campuseswho are protesting Israel and
America's involvement in Gaza,and it's um, it's gone beyond

(46:33):
protest and so Trump's likewe're not doing that.
Now, how do you feel about theno masks thing?
Because personally, now, I'mnot a protester and I will never
I'll tell you right now, I'mnever going to go out and
protest.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
I won't do it.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
I'm not going to do it.
I have other plans but the andI have other ways.
I think protesting is silly anddoesn't do anything, but you
have the right to do it.
I have the right to do it, andif I were to do it, I would feel
more comfortable covering myface to hide my personal

(47:11):
identity, whether I was on theleft or the right protesting.
Oh yeah, because of retaliationof the opposing side towards
your viewpoint.
And so let's say whatever.
Let's say right now, um, youknow, uh, whatever.
Whoever's in charge at whichpoint in time, whoever's in
charge in the next couple ofyears finds your Facebook feed,

(47:33):
finds your family.
And what's's?
What do you think about this?
Like no, the specific partabout no masks you know I mean
what.
If I also want to present myprevent myself from getting a
disease at these protests I'llsay this man, uh, the mass thing

(47:53):
.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
Whenever I watch these videos of people going to
these campuses, right, andthey're going to, like,
interview people, there's alwaysalmost always one side that's
masked and it's always the sidethat's going to be committing
more violence and doesn't wantany accountability

(48:18):
accountability, like.
I never see the side that is atprotests that's open to
accountability and afraid likethey're.
They're not afraid of lettingpeople see them being open to
accountability, right, they'rethere.
They're like hey, I believethis big enough to be out here.
I want people to know this iswhat I stand for and I'm not
going to hide my face becauseit's not wrong for for these
beliefs, these beliefs are notbeliefs I should be ashamed of
and I truly believe this in myheart Like this is a moral

(48:40):
standing ground here.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
Right, that's a good point.
That's a good litmus test on ifyou find yourself going to a
protest and you're like mask up,and you're like I should be
wearing a mask for what I'mabout to do, maybe it's an
illegal protest.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Maybe you're on the side that doesn't want
accountability, which is a verylarge red flag and moral factor.
Now, don't get me wrong, bro.
I think if I lived, if I wassomewhere like let's just I
don't know, let's say like anyother country in the Middle East
other than Israel, or let's sayI was in any let's say, I was

(49:17):
in China, mexico, and you'reyou're a police office like like
the police officer had to covertheir face there, or people who
want to speak out against thecartels, or other countries
other countries no due processno legal system, yeah, where the
police literally do not havethe means or power to like kind
of stand up and protect you, orsomething Right Like they're the
one, they will mow you down.
Yeah, um, I get that to you orsomething right, like they're

(49:38):
the one they will mow you down.
Yeah, um, I get that uh conceptof being like all right, like
mask up.
I'll be honest, dude, if I was,uh, if I was like, I knew guys
in college who are handing outbibles in china.
They go for the summer.
They'd go there forquote-unquote work and they
enter in.
I don't know how they would getin.
They didn't just take a planeto china, but they were there
and they enter in.
I don't know how they would getin.
They didn't just take a plane toChina, but they were there and

(49:59):
they were smuggling Bibles andhanding them out and
distributing them.
They covered their faces, sothat way, you know, it's not
that hard to identify theAmericans in China.
But and I'm like, I get it Iget it Because you're in that
kind of place Now in Americayou're handing out Bibles,
whatever.
You can hand out Korans, youcan burn Bibles and Korans and

(50:21):
Torahs and all that and whatever.
But in a country where I knowthe deep state is legitimately
trying to annihilate me and mykind, I might take that
precautious step of being wiseand covering my face.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
But here's the thing.
But also you know, but alsoyou're not doing legal activity
in that country, right?
Yeah?
So meaning back to the samething of going and hey, I'm not
saying right or wrong on thehanding out bibles, but you're
doing something illegal, yeah,so you better cover your face.
Yeah, now that's all you know.

(50:57):
Like, yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
So if you're gonna be covering your face at a protest
, you're probably doing itlegally.
I think that's our bottom.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
That's the bottom, hey litmus point and and like,
just from a standpoint for me,I'm like, uh, maybe it's naive
for me, but to be like I believein america back in the day
where men didn't cover theirfaces when they, when they did
stuff, yeah, and then someone'slike, what about those guys with

(51:23):
the white hoods?

Speaker 2 (51:23):
and you're like, oh well, that was why were they
doing it exactly, that's, theydidn't want to be held
accountable for the group theywere part of.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
It was illegal, bro, and but, like in general, when I
see people with big boots andmasks on in any country
throughout history, it's a bad,bad, bad sign, because either
they're harming others orthey've gotten to a point where
they cannot trust theirgovernment.
So there is the flip side tothis, with which would be yeah,

(51:55):
it is scary to go out on theseprotests and think, man, I can't
trust my government, like hey,if the people who went to the
January 6th situation knew whatwas going to, the repercussions
that were about to happen, yeah,more than probably would have
messed up.
They would all covered theirface Right as far as if they
knew that their government wasgoing to lock them up.
Yeah, lock up the grandma.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
That, though, right there though, is, I think, a
pretty good one of like why youlook around and you're like,
okay.
So like you look at like theclassics of like do you remember
, chaz, in the chopped area inSeattle?
You remember how many peoplegot just fucking shot in the
back of the head?
And like, how many people diedin that time?
Oh yeah, it was a lot Crazyviolence in these protests, and

(52:39):
almost like you look at a ton oflike almost all of like the
somewhere of love, somewhere ofpeace riots across the country.
There was always someone dyingat one of these Black Lives
Matter protests and riots.
And look, hey, have whateveropinion you want.
I could care less what youropinion is, because I know that
I do believe black lives matter.

(52:59):
I just don't support thatfreaking organization that
wasted people's money andincited literal terrorism on the
streets of, like, our cities.
All that said, um, the Januarysix riders didn't kill anyone.
I think if they were playingaround and killing people, they
would have masked up.
And the people who died therewas one dude who died of a heart

(53:23):
attack and there was one ladywho got shot, and that lady who
got shot got shot by CapitolPolice when she was trying to
get through the doors and theyprobably shouldn't have shot her
and playing that back right.
Oh yeah, no law enforcementagency has supported that shoot
as justified shoot, other thanthe secret service itself, and
so all I'm saying is look, thosepeople got arrested, they went

(53:47):
to jail.
Had they known how they weregoing to get arrested and stuff
and tracked down and persecuted,they probably wouldn't have
come that day.
They probably wouldn't havecome that day.
They probably would have maskedup if they did show up.
But the fact that none of themwere really masking up shows
that I bet their intentions were.
They weren't afraid of beingheld accountable for showing up
in support slash protests ofwhat they believed and all that

(54:07):
said.
Their actions, I think, kind ofmatched for the most part with
that notion of like yeah, we'reokay with being held accountable
for what's going on because youknow, you watch the videos they
weren't breaking in, you know.
I mean, like a lot of peoplelike they tore the place apart
and I'm like they definitelypicked up some stuff and moved

(54:29):
it around, but like I recallseeing a lot of videos where the
metro police were opening doorsfor them and ushering them
through and pointing out whereto go.
And hey, the bathrooms are overhere.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
Yep, yep.
So anyways, as an absolutism,yeah, a couple of January sixers
were masked up.
Majority of those might'veworked for three letter
organization, but yeah, no, dude, that's.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
The crazy thing is when you find out how many feds
in the investigation were likethere that day.
It's unreal.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
Oh, it is, it's hilarious, it's scary, no for
sure.
And so I don't know.
You know, I think that whatTrump's trying to do with that
tweet is to curb these, you knowthese, yeah, illegal protests
that are happening.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
Well, ironically too, legal Eagle, who is probably
one of the most left-leaningYouTube channels and not even to
mention, like he's easilyprobably the most left-leaning
lawyer channel.
Okay, very like he has made, Ishe based is?

Speaker 1 (55:39):
he based?

Speaker 2 (55:39):
no, okay, no, he's not based, bro he has made some
of the most like far-reachingsilly goose arguments on like
why the second amendment's notlike a legal standing, like he's
.
He's just made someextraordinary reaches in like
law stuff, but he he has a videothat was nine months ago
talking about the legality ofthe israel palestine protests on

(56:01):
campus and how they're quoteunquote potentially illegal, and
he's super left-leaning, butalso he's a lawyer and I'm
pretty sure, if I remembercorrectly, that video at the end
was like a lot of these aretechnically illegal because they
don't have permits for theproperty that they're protesting
on.
They don't have the right toestablish and build on those

(56:25):
properties and they're literallylike setting up camps, you know
um, and permanent trying to setup, like you know, structures.
Uh, they also like, technically, if they're not a student there
, they don't have the legalright to be On the campus of
protesting because, like,students of a campus are given
Certain permissions thatnon-students don't have.

(56:47):
Anyways, all that stuff, there'sa lot of stuff on it.
People lost their freaking mindabout it.
Here's my thing.
Just, if you're going toprotest, do it legally, and if
you have a question, do itlegally.
And if you have a questionabout what that is, examine the
case law.
Like everyone's got phones intheir pockets nowadays it's not
that hard to google like how toprotest legally.
Call the place you're going toprotest outside of, ask them hey

(57:10):
, do I need a permit to proteston your property?
And if you don't want to dothat, don't be surprised if the
police come and escort you offthe property and take a look at
the history of protesting andits efficacy and policy change.

Speaker 1 (57:28):
Yeah, um, the only one then that yeah, the biggest
one you could think of would becivil rights movement lots of
protests and that was a manyyears long, but that was
successful.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
I truly believe that protest was only successful,
though, because of the, you know, ability of media communication
at the time, like the cuttingedge news communication of, like
you know, for the first time,americans all across the country
were seen and receiving, likeyou know, radio waves of

(58:07):
television into their homesshowing them pat, peaceful,
passive, uh, you know,african-americans marching and
just being hosed down with waterbeaten down into the ground,
gassed, and they just kept onmarching and they were not even
fighting back and the policewere just beating the snot out

(58:28):
of them and I think everyone sawthat, you know, televised, and
they're like oh wait, a second,this is not what people are
telling me is going on.
I can see now for the firsttime with my eyes, like what is
really happening, right, andthis is wrong Right, and I think
that part of it too.
It'd be like the I don't thinkthose protests would have worked

(58:51):
without television.
I'll say that.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
I don't think they would have either, because it
was so powerful.
Also, i's very few peoplestanding on this side of history
looking back on that, sayingthat they were wrong.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
Yeah, I don't know one Right.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
I maybe met one or two outside a gas station.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
Yeah, I get what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
But for the most part it's yeah, this was, you know
it was, it was a truth, where,and so, anyways, I don't know, I
think protesting and I'll saythis, maybe forever, maybe I'll
be proved wrong someday I justthink protesting is so silly, um
and in in the form that we knowit, as the, the picketing, the
screaming, the organizing thesorrow scene.

(59:37):
Yeah, there's other.
I don't know If you want tomake change, I don't know how to
do it, but I just don't thinkit's that.
And who knows what it is?

Speaker 2 (59:49):
I'm not sure, but there's other ways I really do
like Marvin Hemeyer's methodthough I thought that was what's
that.
Oh, he was the Heemeyer'smethod, though I thought that
was what's that.
Oh, he was the guy who builtthe kill dozer.
Oh, okay, I used.
I used to think like man, whatwould drive a man to do that?
And then I read that wholestory and everything that went

(01:00:10):
on and you read like, or youknow, watch all the
documentation of just like howthe city was essentially in the
pocket of one dude or a familyand just totally stacked against
him just because they wanted tofreaking take his property and
make more money flipping it andselling it.
And I was just like holy shit,I could see how a man just

(01:00:31):
driven to that Like if thatstory.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
And he didn't kill anyone, he didn't even go out to
kill anyone, and the only, andonly one person died in that
whole thing, that was him andhim.
And if that story, I think ifthat story had happened in,
let's say, 1810.
With what?
A horse, a bison, yeah, butmeaning like.

(01:00:55):
Here's the story the big moneyman came to the little farmer
man trying to run him off, takehis land and profit off of it.
Turn it into a saloon,everything he'd ever worked and
lived for, yeah, and the guykind of he just lost it one day
and went into town and tore downthe post office and the jail.

(01:01:15):
He didn't kill nobody, hedidn't hurt a single soul, but
he, he made a valiant fight onthe, on the establishment, and
then he died.
I'm pretty sure that is awestern movie, I don't know
which one it is, but like youknow what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Like no, I get what you're saying, just just it's
just optics and timing and yeahand I'll be honest, like I think
it has, in time, not aged wellfor the portrayal that the news
and gramby gave it.
For people who don't know,marvin hemeyer was the dude who
built his uh bulldozer with boltproof steel on it, um, and

(01:01:53):
started bulldozing towns inGranby, colorado, and it was in
2004.
And the media called it theKilldozer Right away.
They were the ones that signedthe name, even though no one, of
course, was killed.
And as more details came outright, people who knew Marvin,

(01:02:15):
people like got a hold of themail, people who were doing
really great independentjournalism.
It really turned out like thisdude was, they were trying to
drive him insane so he wouldjust leave the town and they
could get his property and such,and they were.
They were literally doingeverything could to like
essentially levy fines and feesagainst him, uh, to keep him

(01:02:37):
from getting like his propertyuh, handled.
And it was all under like thefinger of like this, essentially
like one super wealthy familyin granby that had cronyism to
cronyism and nepotism to aseriously high degree, um, and
the dude snapped.
Man dude was like I have fun,and he just freaking made his

(01:02:59):
dozer and started tearing downbuildings, um, and I just think
most people right now in the inamerica are not like.
I'm not saying most people aregoing to build kill doors, but I
do think most people right noware in a place mentally where
they can see that and they'relike you know what, if I go, if

(01:03:20):
I went through three years ofthat with where I'm already at,
I do worse, you know I mean I, Iunderstand.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
Yeah, I mean that's right, that's right.
That's what my point about likeyou know, the old western movie
being like you could turn intoa movie now and every everybody
watched that that movie and belike at the end.
So just heart-torn.
But you can't see Sandian's kidyeah just, oh man, that man
against the world, type thing,and yeah, you can get driven to

(01:03:55):
these sorts of things.
Oh man, I'm trying to rememberif, like, I think I remember
this being on the news.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
I remember it on the news.
I was at my grandparents' houseand came on and we were
watching it on the news BecauseI was we had moved to Colorado
just a couple years before.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
Oh really, yeah, and so I feel like I remember seeing
it on the news, at least afterthe fact, some of the stuff of
it, yep.

Speaker 2 (01:04:31):
You look at the way he welded it too and you're like
gosh, damn bro, that's actuallypretty well done.
Like it's such a like appeasingshape, like everything is really
well angled, trapezoidal, orrectangle, rectangle, um it's.
It's pretty insane how well hedid, um, but uh, anyways, all

(01:04:57):
that said, you know, I don'tthink I have much else on this,
pat.
I think I think I think I havevoiced as much as I care really
about all these things, because,at the end of the day, I really
saw all this and I was like Iget it.
People are freaking out.
I understand why they'refreaking out.

(01:05:18):
I can empathize with, like,their offense to what is being
said or how our leaders arebehaving.
At the same time, I also getwhy our leaders are saying these
things and why they're doingthem, and I don't necessarily
disagree with it.
I don't necessarily disagreewith it.
And so, at the end of the day,though, I see this as all just

(01:05:45):
you know turnings, just anotherturning, you know another drift
on our axes and part of theorbit around the sun, and like I
just, I don't know, I don'tthink this is like anything new.
I think in four years, we couldhave just another historic
moment of that kind of stuff onTV.
You know what I mean Engagingin that kind of, you know,
insane media coverage.
So, with all that, you know, I,I, I guess I was happy to talk

(01:06:10):
about it, but I don't reallyhave any more to add, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
No, yeah, I mean, and like one one one thought I had
about it was here's the dealtrump said he was going to end
these wars.
He's got it, he's got to followup on it.
Right, but meaning he didn't.
He didn't say how or what, buthe says he's gonna end him yeah
and he's sternly making movestowards you, wrapping up

(01:06:38):
bloodshed and some of thesethings.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
You know I was really thinking about it a lot when,
like they're like we're notgoing to compromise, you know
Zelensky saying he's not goingto compromise and Trump and
Vance are yelling at him andthen post that interview
Zelensky's, like you know, I wasoffended because the people
have died and we're not going tocompromise because we can't
trust Russia, because the peoplehave died and we're not going
to compromise because we can'ttrust russia.
All I could think about, overand over man, was that footage

(01:07:01):
of those two guys who had nobusiness crossing paths, just
their ukrainian soldier and thatmongolian russian soldier, like
conscript, and their fight tothe death, both stabbing each
other, biting each other's handsand at the end of it, you know

(01:07:23):
it's like.
You know, leave me in peace,let me die.
You know you're the bestfighter I've ever met, brother,
and they both call each otherbrother as they die.
Well, as one dies and then theother one probably died later
from his wounds walking off.
I just want, like peace forthose dudes Like I, that I'm
like those are two dudes whohave no desire to be there.

(01:07:44):
Those are two dudes who werelike, who should have never been
there in the first place, and Ireally just want those dudes
and the dudes who have fuckingseen that shit and gone through
it to just have peace and beable to, like, go home, die of
old age surrounded by people wholove them, because it's fucking
ugly dude, I you know I'm sorryfor swearing but, like for

(01:08:04):
those of you who don'tunderstand, like if you don't
have you, if you haven't seenthis footage, I think it will
drastically change your point ofview of like, yeah, it needs to
stop, dude, it needs to stop.
That's like the most insane,insanely brutal, violent stuff
I've ever seen in my life.
No movie compares to it.
Uh, to seeing like the realvisceral, like fighting for your

(01:08:25):
life and having to take someoneelse's, and I just don't want
that anymore.
For those guys, you know, Iwant them to go home to their
women and children and havepeace Both of them.
I don't give a shit whichcountry they're from yeah, and
that's the.

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
and some people might disagree with this and I would
maybe disagree with myself, butwould be like who cares if a
border moves 20 miles this wayor that way, as far as, on the
individual level, the dude withthe farm still farming, making
the crops?
You know, what the big deal is.
In some ways, it's whichgovernment or country is

(01:09:09):
collecting on those, all thosecrops or something.
Or a port city and those things,and it's obviously more
complicated than that.
But, like some of these places,where stuff's changed, the
people aren't, people'slanguages aren't changing.
Their families can still dowhat they're doing.
You know, and I realize I'moversimplifying it as a

(01:09:31):
conclusion, but just to bringthings from you know what's the
point of moving borders and wars?
To bring things from you knowwhat's the point of moving
borders and wars.
It's not so that that familyright there could have a better
life.
It's so that somebody else in acity way far away who makes
decisions that you have no sayin, can profit yeah, and that's

(01:09:55):
what war is and has been for along time.
Yeah, can profit, you know, andthat's and that's what war is
and has been for a long time.
Yeah, so it's a um, yeah, theon that individual level it does
.
It's got to end.
A lot of people out therehurting that way.
And you know the other maybethe last little piece I have was
this of this is when I waswatching trump lay into zelensky
, he raised his voice.

(01:10:15):
He did that's like the mainthing I've seen.
Yeah, the words raised hisvoice.
Well, how dare anybody raisetheir voice if they care about
something If they want to getserious.
Listen people.
I'm sorry that maybe your momnever yelled at you or I'm sorry
maybe she yelled too much, butthe deal is.

(01:10:36):
Is is like sometimes you got tohear how it is and someone can
get passionate and raise theirvoice and lay it down.
And I don't agree witheverything.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
Trump does not particularly his biggest fan,
but at the same time here's thedeal.

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
Uh, what I saw was a lot of people with a complete
inability to take criticism,like the individuals commenting
and talking about the stuffpeople with it in in themselves
complete inability to takecriticism, be yelled at, tell
when they're done wrong, andthen um project that onto their

(01:11:15):
comments about watching him.

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
Oh, yeah, yeah he triggered you.

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
He triggered you and I'm sorry because he raised his
voice.
I'm sorry, we don't raise ourvoice here.

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
No, I want to raise the voice.
Bro.
If you're the leader of mycountry, I want you to be a mean
, mean, mean bulldog.

Speaker 1 (01:11:33):
I want you to be meaner than a junkyard dog and I
want you to be meaner than ajunkyard dog and I want you to
have compassion too, because thependulum swings both ways.
The most kindest, most generouspeople I know they will
freaking let it rip on the otherside too.
Thanks, man, appreciate that.

(01:11:54):
You know, but you know, I mean,I don't know if you've seen that
too and like in men who aresure of themselves, who have the
ability to, and just for justas deep as someone's compassion
can go and kindness andgentleness, they can ramp it the
other way Speak softly, carry abig stick, kind of stuff, yep,

(01:12:17):
and speak up when it's time youknow, and so um, yeah, yeah I
think, uh, I think that's kindof what I think well.

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
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(01:13:07):
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