Ammasi Periasamy (University of Virginia)

Episode Transcript
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Intro/Outro (00:02):
Welcome to The Microscopists, a bite sized bio
podcast hosted by Peter O'Toole,sponsored by Zeiss Microscopy.
Today on the Microscopists

Peter O'Toole (00:14):
Today on Microscopists, Amarsi Pebasami
taught humble beginnings inIndia before founding the Keck
Centre.

Ammasi Periasamy (00:20):
In my home, I was a guest. All the time, high
school also, I was not in myhome. I was in my uncle's house
because there was no highschool, in my village.

Adjusting to the culture of the USA after moving
from India.

Adjusting with the people, yes. There was an
issue, you know. As you know, inIndia, you give respect to the
elders, whatever they say, evenit is wrong, you listen.

And his toughest times in academia.

The first time in the academic life, always
getting grants. Right? That isthe toughest time for sure.

All in this episode of The Microscopists.
Hi. I'm Pete Fraser from theUniversity of York, and welcome
to this episode of TheMicroscopist. Cross. Today, I
have a special guest, AmasiPerasamy.
Amasi, how are you today?

I'm doing okay. Great.

So I don't you won't remember this. You
definitely won't remember this,but I remember meeting you in 2,
000 and 3 2, 002, 2003 in Genoaat Focus on Microscopy that was
organized by, Albi.

I think it is 2, 004. Is it 2, 004? Yeah. I
think so. 2, 001, 2, 002, wehave the COVID.
Right?

Oh, sorry. No. Sorry. No. 2, 000 sorry.
2, 000 and 3. 2, 004.

Oh, I see. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Maybe.
Yeah. Alright. Yeah. Yes. Idon't remember.
Okay.

So as a young PhD postdoc that was doing, Fret
work at the time. I used tofollow a lot of your posts on
the Confocal listserv.

Okay. Yes.

Especially, you know, when I was sort of
learning the ropes, as it were,back then. And I moved to York
and went to focus on microscopyand got very fortunate. I think
it was Patrick Courtney.

Right,

PerkinElmer that, introduced us and we we had some
dinner.

Oh, I see. I see. Okay.

It is a pleasure to meet you again. So I don't
think we've come across eachother again since then.

Yeah. We we do not. You know, if you come to
the SPIE meeting, to focus onmicroscopy, we can meet. I
always say do not travel much.Only these 2 conferences, I do
not miss.
I always try to attend.

Which would be FOM and

SPIE. Yeah. SPIE, I cannot miss because I am
organizing the multiphore downmicroscopy conference. I have to
be there. I am the chair.

You see, that that was 1 of my questions.
Usually, it's what is yourfavorite conference?

I would say SPIA, Multiphonam Micronom
Micronom. And second 1 is forsure. I love that meeting,
particularly if it is in Europe.You see a lot of exhibits of,
new instrument, new approach. Ireally like that microscopy and

(03:24):
new developments

photophoton side in a bit, but you're currently
at the University of Washington,I think.

Yes. No. You're in Virginia.

Oh, sorry. Virginia. In Washington.

In Charlottesville, close to
Washington, about 2 hours drive.

When did you move over to the US?

Oh, a long time ago. It's 19 85 or 86.

Wow. That

okay. That's it. That's fine. Yeah. As a
postdoc, University ofWashington, Seattle.

And so if that was back in 86, you I I presume,
therefore, you studied in Indiabefore?

Yes. I my PhD is from Indian Institute of
Technology, Madras

So from

in biomedical engineering.

Why the move to the US?

Well, I have a lot of interest when I was a
grad I I'm basically a physicsin masters in physics. When I
was a student, I used to thinkabout the time resolved, the
lifetime measurements all thetime. They teach, and, you know,
at that time, you have onlyexponential decay. I wanted to
do something new, so I had theopportunity. I was actually

(04:44):
working as assistant professorin the local university after my
PhD.
And as you know, in India,getting job is not easy. And if
you get a better job, they don'twant you to leave. But I always
try to advance my researchactivities in a better way. So

(05:05):
when the opportunity came in, atthat time, they got up the
Department of Physics, where hewas teaching on medical physics.
And he suggested me, you have agreat potential.
You should go to US. I had a 4office to select, and then I
chosen the, University ofWashington, Seattle. And I came

(05:29):
on you know? Slowly, I changed.There, I built the polarization
microscopy for investigating thecardiac muscle fiber
contraction.
That really led to me to involvein microscopy development, new

(05:50):
ideas to solve, new questionsinvolving biological and as well
as clinical applications. Sothat's that's the reason my my
interest is always in science. Iwanted to do something new.
Applications side, not in fieldphysics. That's why I changed to
biomedical engineering.

You just preempted my question of how did
you buy you know, as aphysicist, why did you go into
addressing biological questionsor or using your physics to to
to develop tools to betteraddress biological tools?

That's correct.

The biology?

Yeah. Physics is, you know, all the system
based on physics. In biology,you really understand if you
have a physics background, howit works. And on the
instrumentation side, thephysics is the big and
engineering side too. My fathertold me, why don't you go for
engineering?

(06:47):
After I I passed in the highschool or 3 university, and I
told him I want to be ascientist. Okay. Cool. So that's
how that's how we're involved inscience. Since high school, I
have been more motivated to dosomething positive, something
benefit from this to thesociety.

(07:07):
So you learn something, teachthe students whatever you
learned, and things like that. II have that kind of motivation.
That's why I started theworkshop on FRET microscopy and
running a conference, thingslike that. So, that is the
motivation why I decided to fromphysics, pure physics to

(07:29):
applied, area.

So tell you, your your father was obviously a
clear inspiration to you in thatin that aspect and kicking
pushing you into a sort of sitethat I'm not pushing you, but,
inspiring you to go onto ascience.

Yeah. I mean, that's the way they do that.
Right? I tell my son, hey, whydon't you study this? But he
said, no.
I want to go for aviationengineering. Okay. You know?
That's how it goes. Yeah.
No. He he went to aviationengineering, so I recommended
him to study biomedicalengineering. That also he can go

(08:06):
to NASA. Any degree you study,if you do well, you can go to
NASA. That's not a problem.
But he decided to go for,emission engineering the same
way me. I want to be ascientist, So, okay, go for
physics. So that's what I did.Do you just have

the 1 son? Do you have any other family, children?

I have a 1 son and 1 daughter. Daughter is a a
radiologist, working in myuniversity hospital, and my son
is a aviation engineer. He wasworking for NASA for a couple of
years, and then he went forsystem engineering, and he said
he is planning to run his owncompany. So whatever he wants to

(08:47):
do, it's okay.

So both are scientists. What about your
partner? Is she a scientist aswell?

No. I came from, my father, is a farmer. I
came from a village, and, and Iam the I was the only graduated
person from the my wholesociety. I would say maybe, you

(09:16):
know, my father is head of thevillage. What do you they call
it as president or somethinglike that.
So, yeah, until he retired, hewas. And my same as my
grandfather. So all are farmers,and they are all kind of leaders
in the village. And, so Istudied well. My father

(09:41):
philosophy I have a, I have abrother and sister, but my
brother always fails in hisexam, even in the elementary
school, high school, actually,final high school he failed.
My my father, idea is that if hefailed, you ought to come and

(10:02):
take care of the lands, and youshould not continue. So, I was
always 1st in the class, ineverything, high school, so he
allowed me to go further andfurther. So that's how I
continued, and, he's he did notpush me. I just tell him, okay.

(10:23):
I finished my finished my BS inphysics in 1st class.
I want to go for masters. Hesaid, okay. So that's that's how
I continued, all my education.

So so so it's a very different childhood then,
at that point? Yes. So can yourecall when you were probably
around the age of 10, 9, 10, youprobably started to think about
what you may want to be when yougrow up. So before your dad said
go into science, what what sortof job did you imagine yourself
doing? The first job you canever remember thinking, oh, I'd

(10:58):
like to do that.

I always you know, in high school, they asked
me to write a essay. The samequestion, what do you want to
be? You know, I wrote, I want tobe a scientist. It it it it
continued. I mean, it was in mysystem.
I continued, you see my career.I know. I I after my master's

(11:27):
degree in physics, I got a jobas a demonstrator in the
engineering college, and Icould. I went and joined in IIT
Madras as a PhD student inbiomedical engineering. They
told me that I have to do, Ihave to do, masters in
engineering too.

(11:48):
Because if you go from scienceto engineering, you have to do 1
more masters, really, tocontinue with PhD. So I did
that. Then again, I got a jobafter PhD, and again I could. I
came to this country. So it'salways my motivation is doing
something new.
Still, I am doing the samething. All my research and see

(12:11):
publication, I always didsomething new and then move on,
advanced using my basic, ideas.And, I moved on for all the
time. I always focus onresearch. Yeah.
That's true.

So I'll take you now back to when you're probably
16, 18. You you said you livedin a village, a farming village,
itself. It must have been quitea big change going to Madras,
which is now a big city. A verylarge city.

Yeah. Yeah.

How did you find that culturally? How did you
find that change, thattransition?

Yeah. I know for my home to my home, I was a
guest. All the time, high schoolalso, I was not in my home. I
was in my uncle's house becausethere was no high school, in my
village. So, I was studyingwell.
So my my uncle took me to hishouse. So I was going to the

(13:11):
little bit of better village, Iwould say, well established. And
I was staying I went to when Iwas in 7th grade or something
like that, to his home and Icompleted a high school staying
in his home. And, then I went tothe college. That is where major

(13:33):
shift from village side to thecollege.
It is a big town. When they wentto the undergraduate degree, At
that time, there is a preuniversity, and then you go for
undergraduate degree. I did notfeel anything different since I

(13:53):
was always away from home. I didnot feel like, hey, I am missing
them, missing this. I just visitmy home whenever, holidays comes
and spend some time with mybrother and sister and parents
and just and relatives.
And go since I am studying welland everybody respect me,
everybody listens to me, youknow, that's the case, always in

(14:16):
the village side. So, yes, thereis I did not feel much
difference. Even if I came tothis came to this years, I did
not be much difference even inthe lab because IIT Madras works
exactly like, all the westerncountries' institutions. Are the
EIT faculty members aregraduated from, changed from

(14:43):
some other country, westerncountries, things like that. So
the working habit is the same asI do here.
There is no end. So I alwayscontinue my work when I as I was
a PhD student.

So so that was the the the work side of it.
What about culturally when youcame to the US? I I know I've
asked many guests who've goneover to the US or US coming to
Europe or over to Asia orAustralia, wherever it is, how
they found the cultural side.The it's just the living side,
find the housing, the change inhousing, the buying food. I I

(15:22):
know some of the UK people whogo over to US terribly miss
British chocolate because I'msorry, all you US.
It's just chocolate is so muchbetter than what you're getting
to in here. How did you findthat those cultural changes when
you went over?

Well, I am when I was in the high school,
high school or undergraduatedegree, I was in the, NCC,
National Cadet College. There,they will teach you how to cook.
Okay? So when I came to thiscountry, I was cooking myself

(15:58):
basically Indian food. So withthe spicy, everything is
available.
I did not feel any differentthat, I am hungry, I don't know
how to eat, I am not vegetarian,I can eat anything except cow
meat. So I eat everything. Sofish and chicken, things like

(16:19):
that. So I did not have anyproblem when I arrived in this
country. And, the mypostdoctoral adviser was very,
very supportive of me, and hemade me he made me feel at home.
So I was very, very happy. Andfood food wise, not an issue for

(16:40):
me. And adjusting with thepeople, yes, there was an issue,
you know, trying to, you know,in as you know, in India, you
give respect to the elders,whatever they say. Even it is
wrong, you listen. Sometimes youdon't think everybody is honest,
and it took me some time tolearn, you know.

(17:04):
My first actual adviser told me,look at the fingers. All are not
equal. Right? Don't thinkeverybody is like you.

So Do you still cook at home? Are you still on
the main

I still cook home. No. No. I am no problem
for me. Still, I am cooking.

Do you are you the main cook?

Yes. That's me. Yes?

Yes. Do do you know you're just taking 1 of my
other questions that I havelater? Ah, okay.

Okay. That's fine.

So thinking about you you you came into the US.
You've made your name. Whatdrove you to get so involved in
SPIE and the conferencing sideof things?

My first paper was, published in SPIE when I
was a graduate student at IITMadras. So I use that, and
whenever I get a chance, andsince I am using all optical
methods, and the SPE is theidea, I kind of found it is very
ideal for me. I used to go for abiophysical society meeting too.

(18:12):
Every year, I used to go. Once Istarted my workshop, it so
happens, next to following week,every single society meeting
meeting in March.
I can organize my workshop only1st week of March, spring break,
no students. I can take thewhole floor to do that. So the

(18:32):
SPAI meeting, I go whenever Iget a chance, but once I joined
in University of Virginia, it iskind of warm my own lab and
everything. I I make the call.So I used to go every year, and
1 day I was sitting there, I wasjust presenting my data, even
Tony Wilson, conference.

(18:54):
I used to do that, microscopyconference. And 1 day I was
sitting there, Joe Lokevich,came to me, and he knows, I am
running a workshop. I am fromUniversity of Virginia. He has a
lot of respect for University ofVirginia faculty members. I was
sitting there.
He came to me, and he brought 1SPA manager or whoever,

(19:18):
technical manager or somethinglike that. He's the guy. You ask
him to run the multiphonalmicroscopy conference. So that's
how I started. I asked Peter Soto join with me, to start a
conference.
And, Ward Webb was so excited.He was the 1st speaker, keynote

(19:39):
speaker, for the conferenceorganizing this. He was so
supportive of that. And all theMicrosoft company supported the
conference, so I was able to runit. So that's how I got involved
with the SPAE.
I it's a lot of interestingstuff on the technology side.
Applying for variousapplications is, so exciting to

(20:02):
me. I attend many sessions. Iusually, in addition to my
conference, I used to go forselected talks.

What year was it that you started your
involvement there?

Pardon me?

What year did you start your involvement with SPIE
in organizing the multi photonsessions? When when

was I think it was 2001.

So that was really when biology started to
embrace multivoton.

Yeah. They really weren't.

Time that it started to get

a bit Yeah. Yeah. 1919 99, they started Bio
Rad started marketing thismultiphorent microscopy. You
know, at 1998, I got NSF grantto build a multiphoner
microscopy. At that time, thereis no commercial unit, so the

(20:56):
federal government gave themoney.
Then 99, 2000, it became, amultifold arm microscope, a
commercialization of Bio Rad. In2001, I it was very timely. Joe
Larkovich asked me. JoeLarkovich asked me because when
he started the JB board, Journalof Biomedical Optics, he

(21:18):
requested me to be 1 of theeditorial board member. That's
how he lost me.
I joined in the meeting 97. I Iremember that 97 or 96, he
started the JBL. So he asked meto be a member. I think I joined
in 96 96 or 97. So, he knows mewell, so that's that's maybe 1

(21:41):
of the reason why he asked me toorganize the Multiphore Down
Conference in 2001.

Which is now expanding, so I that that
includes FLIM and other aspectsin the talks that were around
it. So to this technology'smoved on from that.

Yeah. I I included, not only, multi photon
microscopic development orapplications and also FLIMFrAC
FCS, which is 2 photon is used alot for FLIM. And now we include
for the last, 3 or 4 yearsmetabolic imaging, NADH, FAD,

(22:22):
and tryptophan, which we areusing a 2 foot on microscopy
excitation. And also when wewhen I started, I also include
the COS microscopy. Sunny, shecame and requested me, hey.
Why don't we start a session inthe multiphonal microscopy on
COS? I said yes. Then it becamea 1 day session in my

(22:44):
conference. It became from 3days to 4 days. Then I I told
the SPA people you should givehim separate conference for
cars.
Now they are running a separateconference, not in my part of my
conference. So this is how allthe whichever multi photon
involved, the applications wasincluded in my conference. Now

(23:09):
we have only FLIM, FCS, and,metabolism. And also I run once
a year some special, forexample, last year I ran women
in multiphonometric microscopy.That became very attractive.
They started running news in theSPAE, almost all the journals,

(23:33):
And this the next year, going tostart on fat film, FCS and
metabolic meeting. As a specialsession, in that I invite some
keynote speakers and things likethat. I also sometimes invite
plenary speakers for Sunday. Youknow, when Stefan Hell, Eric

(23:57):
Betsick, William Miner won theNobel Prize the following, by
November the following nextyear, January, I invited them to
celebrate, multifodal sorry, mycelebrate the super resolution
microscopy. So they were 3 ofthem are there.

(24:18):
And, next year, also, they askedme to organize the preliminary
speakers. On Sunday is alwaysplenary. It's common for
everybody. So I invited, a NobelPrize winner 2023, from MIT, on
quantum dots. So he agreed tocome.

(24:42):
And I have to find anotherspeaker, because they we need at
least 2 speakers minimum. So Iam still looking for another
speaker to invite. Well, I

think you've gone through half my podcast guests.
Won't go through them. WWE,Eric. You mentioned Tony. Yeah.
Petri Shriller, of course.Obviously, not WhatWeb, but,
Petri Shriller from WhatWeb'slab. So Petra, there's a good
idea for you.

Yeah.

But she's quite inspirational. I'm gonna take
you back now. What was yourfirst microscope you ever used?
Can you remember?

Instead that I built the microscope, buying our
parts, everything, The firstmicroscope I used is, Nikon.
Okay. Yeah. I built, III at thattime in Chapel Hill, I have

(25:42):
Olympus. It is a kind offacility, and, we had Olympus,
Zeiss, everything.
But I used the Nikon to buildfluorescence light time imaging
microscopy. That's a basic.

So so now you have lots of microscopes because
you also have the WM Keck CentreFor Imaging. So I have a
question on this 1. So you it'sthe WM Keck Centre For of
Imaging or for imaging rather.So this, I presume, is funded
from a philanthropist at thispoint or a foundation sets up in

(26:19):
their name?

Yeah. That's it. There is a story behind
that. I was in Chapel Hill. Ideveloped the fluorescence
lifetime imaging microscopy.
At that time, there is nolifetime imaging. I've
developed, like, for calcium, asingle line using gating camera.
The gating camera was given byHema Matze. Free. It's free

(26:43):
gating camera.
We got 1 money for buying alaser, Neodymium Yawg laser
based a dye laser system. I haveeverything, 2nd harmonic, third
harmonic, and dialysis systems.So that is where I built the
lifetime imaging system at thetimes. And then, of course,
Hammer Marce, free gave thecamera, but they use the idea,

(27:07):
to build a street camera. Youmade a lifetime streak camera.
It's all based on from our workon their gating camera. Now
gating camera is available 100megahertz. At that time only 10
kilohertz in the repetitionrate. So I was in the chapel
then. I got the invitation fromhere.

(27:29):
They told me some, you know,micro some microscopy company
told, hey. This guy is good.We're only inviting him to start
a microscopy center here. Sothat's how I came here. The VPR
was very, very, interestingperson, meaning that he always
interested to introduce newtechniques, new technology or

(27:52):
biological investigations.
So so he helped me to get moneyfrom the Tech Foundation. It's
about $1, 000, 000, at thattime, 98. So that's how this

(28:13):
center they told me you spendthe money as you like. You just
name this at that at that time,it started as a central for
cellular imaging. Then kickfoundation money came in.
We started as a Keck Center forcellular imaging. This is how
the Keck Center was, founded bymoney with, from the Kicks

(28:36):
Foundation. And using thatmoney, I generated 1, 000, 000
of dollars from NIH and as a,you know, other organizations.
This is called the tech center.Now we keep to it.
You name it. We have all kindsof microscopy. Not only
commercial, I built themicroscopy system, 2 photon,

(28:57):
mainly 2 photon light andreading system. I built a Tufts
system. These are all, custombuilt system is available.
And since I am teaching amicroscopy course, the students
really enjoy how the custombuilt microscopy was done, and
they wanted to evolve, theylearn about it, etcetera. So
this is how I started the. Good.Center for cellular imaging and

(29:23):
the university was supporting inevery aspect of the operation.

Do you still get funding from the Keck
Foundation?

No. They give only 1 time.

Okay. But but that's

Only 1 time.

But it was a big time. But it that's what set it
up and got it going, and theyExactly. That's fungus.

The Keck Foundation is that's how I
that's their motive. They givethe money to start something new
idea for a particularinstitution, and then they
expect the institution and theinvestigator should expand. And
KIPP Foundation was very, veryhappy.

Okay. Actually, I don't actually know, I've got to
go back. What was the, duringyour career, what would you say
has been the toughest timeduring your career?

The first time in the academic life, always
getting grants. Right? That isthe toughest time for sure. I
faced with, most of the time,that was I consider as the first
time, getting money andsometimes fails. And again you

(30:34):
have to resubmit and get themoney.
And running the lab researchwise, I was lucky to get many
postdoc students veryenthusiastic to work with me.
And, so I I the first time, Iwould say, mainly getting grant

(30:59):
money, make the people to work,to stay in the lab so that, you
know, I never asked anybody toleave, but most of them, you
know, they work and then get ajob and they go. That's how it
works. And most of them work,particularly postdocs works for
6 years. So they, they reallyhelped me a lot to establish the

(31:24):
Craig seller.
I would say the toughest time isgetting

money. Okay. So you didn't get the money. The
grant is rotten. When you gohome, what do you do to relax?
What do you do to chill out whenyou get home?

I go to the pool. Then? Swimming pool. I go
to a swimming pool.

How often do you swim?

Yeah. That is that is where I relax, really.
Tell you

the truth. How often do you swim? Every day.
Every day?

Yeah. My my gym is just behind my building.
Okay. No. That's

not simple.

I I go to the gym. I I tell them 4:30, I
leave. My office, if anybodywants to talk to me, I tell them
come to the gym. And I spend for2 hours gym activity and then
and then I go for swimming.That's so fast.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, usedifferent equipment, at least at

(32:24):
least 1 hour on the gym and the30 minutes for swimming and
things like that.

So does that mean you pause at the end to enable
people to ask you questions, ordo you just put them forwards?

It happens. 1 time, 1 of the professor came to
me. Hey. The kid center door isnot locked. I was assuming.
He came, and he's the seniorprofessor, in the biology
department. He was sittingthere. I wonder why he was
waiting for me. I went the day.The tech center door was not
locked, and you better watchout.

(32:59):
And he said, okay. I'll check onthat after he return. So, yeah,
usually, they come when I was inthe gym. Yeah.

And I do have to ask, I'm also a keen swimmer.
Are you a front full orbreaststroke? Pardon me? Are you
freestyle swimming, front crawl,freestyle or breast stroking?

I do everything. Not swimming.
Freestyle, breaststroke, andeverything I do. Backstroke, I
mix I mix everything.

Butterfly as well?

Butterfly, I have not done. No.

That's that's that's that's stats.

I found it a little tough, but, I did not do
it. Butterfly. But,breaststrokes, all those things
I did except butterfly.

So that's what you do to relax. You have you
got any other hobbies outside ofthat?

No hobbies. I don't my my gardening is my
hobby when I go home. Oh, that'sa hobby. Yeah. All all the
vegetables, I mostly do not buy.
Yep. It's all from my garden.Pepper, plants, beans, tomatoes,
everything.

So if that's what you've got, we've talked about
tough times, if not getting agrant, take it out. What about
the best times at work? Whatwhat has been the best time in
your career? If you could reliveany moment in your career, what
moment would it it be? Orperiod?

Well, the in research, when you get your
results successful, you arevery, very happy. So that's
that's where I always excitedwhenever things work. You
struggle hard. I try a number ofways Well, it worked, and you
are so excited. I am I reallytake my group to the lunch.

(34:50):
Let's go. Pepper acceptor. Sothis kind of, exciting mainly is
that, you know, when I was, Iwould say, when I was very much
excited when I did thetryptophan imaging, amino acid.
You know, no no imaging was doneat that time. Tryptophan

(35:11):
emission is in the UV.
All the microscope, the tubelens gives only after 400. You
don't you don't use themicroscopy to do the imaging. So
So I was having, at that time,bioreactor 2 photon, MRC 2 1000.
So I built myself taking thesignal from the below the not

(35:34):
this cam, below the objectivelens, and then I put the
detector, which is UV, lifetimedetector. It got the image.
So that was very exciting momentfor sure. You know? Nobody has
done on tryptophan imaging atthat time. It is 2012. I did

(35:56):
that experiment.
That's how we started involvingmetabolic imaging, after that.

That's a good standout, mate. I was gonna ask
if you could pick out any 1standout result, and you've
you've just picked that outquite nicely.

Yeah. Recently recently, I have a completely
new invention on the biopsyscreening. Biopsy tissue
screening, cancer tissue or anytissue, they use the grading
using gliason. Right? Gliasongrading.

Yeah. The prosthetic

require tissue tissue development, staining,
and everything. But lifetime isa fingerprint of the molecule.
Right? So at the molecularlevel, you can detect whether it
is a normal cell or cancer cell.The cancer cell lifetime
decreases.
So that gave me an idea that wecan detect urine without

(36:57):
staining using the NADH imaging.No staining, you just use the
NADH imaging. Auto fluorescence,use the 2 photon excitation,
and, you can easily theretaining staining says normal,
but our lifetime technique saysthere is a lot of cancer cells.

(37:18):
So now it is the US patent. Youknow, patent that I am working
with the company, to build theclinical system to test in the
clinical area.
That is really after working somany years, I felt like, yeah,
this is something I amcontributing to the society.

(37:39):
This is yearly detection, notonly yearly detection, it's a
better method. You just take thebiopsy tissue, put it on the
scanner, and use the machinelearning software, it spits out
the data, grading techniques. Sothat is very exciting for me.
This is very recent 1.

It's interesting you say about the machine
learning. We've been looking atsimilar strategies, not not
using multi photon, but machinelearning for learning more about
the samples that are otherwisenot easy to extract information.
How big do you think machinelearning is going to be and AI
part of that, going forward inmicroscopy? Just just general

(38:21):
biological research.

Well, if you want to use the machine
learning, you should have alarge number of data, to do that
data analysis. You know, Ialways say this artificial
intelligence is a black box. Weare creating a software to do
what is necessary for us. So,the huge number of data,

(38:48):
thousands of data data points,you know, if you take a 512 by
512 pixels image, if you wantedto take each pixel, gives the
lifetime distribution, so youget huge number of data points
if you wanted to predictstatistically. This is a very
good machine learning approach.

(39:09):
It's a very good approach if youget it within seconds. For
example, we submitted a paper,recently in the scientific
reports I revised andresubmitted, 3 weeks ago. That
paper is focused on the drugcellular response. Our ordinary

(39:30):
method, data analysis, showed ittakes 60 seconds, drug response.
But when we add and put all thedata points in the machine
learning software, it says yousee the direct response within
15 seconds, not 60 seconds.

(39:51):
So the data crunching dataanalysis, the machine learning
approach is really, reallyuseful. This happens. Yeah.
Yeah.

I think once AI can start telling us what the
app features are, that'll beeven more useful. As you say, at
the moment, most AI is just ablack box. But once it can
actually extract information,tell us what it's extracting,
tell us what it's found, becausethat at the moment is is
obviously a missing point. Flowcytometry has a lot around the

(40:24):
there's a few instruments nowbased around machine learning
and AI. Mhmm.
But it's a leap of faith whenit's not telling you what
features it's identifying toidentify subpopulations, for
example. I think that's, as yourightly say, as you've been
going with the Gleason grading,is by using your machine

(40:45):
learning, it it's informative,and you've got confidence in you
you know what you're extracting.You know what features. It makes
sense. It'll be interesting tosee where it goes.

Yeah. It's a yeah. It is a interesting
discussion always on the machinelearning approach. As I always
say, it is a black box. The onlything we are we wrote we write
the software to do incorporateall these you follow their
instructions methodology, how toinput the data in their,

(41:23):
algorithm.
And, then it puts out the data.And your question is, how do you
believe it, whether that data isright or wrong? We have a person
who does the job. His name is,Hostwar Rabi. He he's retired

(41:43):
from the pharmaceutical companyBayer, and, he has been work
working with me for a long time.
And, he likes the numbers, so hedon't believe the software. He
don't believe the machinelearning. He does it himself,
calculate, and comes out andsay, yeah, I believe it now. It

(42:05):
gives me the same results, whatthe machine learning is giving
me. So, yes, it is difficult tosay, pinpoint, how the machine
learning is works, but you arealways looking at the output
results whether it is correct ornot correct.

So it's interesting how you've you've
picked out the the lack of trustand the the the building of that
trust. And, actually, 1 of myquestions I was going to ask
you, in those early days ofMultiphoton, how and think about
when the first Multiphoton lasercame out and first being used,
how difficult was it to getacceptance of that as a

(42:49):
technique in the life sciencecommunity?

That's a great question. Yes. It was a tough
time. I built myself as Imentioned to you with the NS of
money. At that time, there is nocommercial system.
This is the only multi photonsystem we had in the university.
So they wanna do calcium imagingusing Indovalent and other

(43:15):
applications such as FRAT andLifetime, etcetera. So, it is
even in Lifetime Imaging, it isdifficult to convince the
biologist how to interpret thedata. So that's that's where the
whole issue is comes in thepicture, which I am interacting
with the biological biologist alot, number of applications,

(43:40):
cell biology, neurobiology,developmental biology, you name
it. Everybody comes here andasks me, how can I do this?
And I do explain in length howto do that. And, if the students
comes, ask them to take myclass. I will explain more in
detail and train you in themicroscopy how to do the calcium

(44:05):
imaging in neurons or in cellsor anything, development of
biology, embryos, yes, it is, ifyou do not convince them that
the microscopy technique isuseful for their investigation,
seeing is believing. So youshould see it. And I work with

(44:30):
them, or my staff will work withthem to make sure that they see
the right results, then they areexcited.
And they do see some people arepublishing data within their
world science field, and why notwhy not I? So I told them, well,
okay, come on in. We will figureit out and set up the system and

(44:51):
make sure you get the rightresults. That's how you can
motivate the biologists to usethe microscopy system. And you
have, for example, for a fact, Ihave to demonstrate.
I have to publish. Then 1 day,the priority still come. Okay. I
will spend my time doing shred.If you do not yeah.

(45:14):
Go ahead.

No. I was gonna say, actually, sir, thank you
for many of us because we didn'thave to do that because when we
started doing frets, it wasstill and fret goes back to the
70. Biochemical FRET goes backway back, but imaging FRETs. A
lot of those methods were notthey were very challenging on a
microscope back in the nineties.It wasn't really until the the
emergence of the improvement ofpiezo controls, the AOMs in

(45:41):
microscopes that that enabled usto to really move forward in
confocal site and make itavailable to the masses.
But it's because of that priorwork that yourselves have helped
develop that meant actuallyusers were more willing to
accept it straight away. So, youknow, it's made life a lot
easier for biologists to trustit. And maybe that's where

(46:01):
machine learning will go in thefuture. I have some quick fire
questions for you. Okay.
Okay. So are you an early birdor night owl?

Night owl.

Okay. PC or Mac? PC. McDonald's or Burger King?

Pardon me?

McDonald's or Burger King?

I don't I don't go at all. Apparently, I
go McDonald's. Where is that? IfI travel.

Yeah. If you're forced to. Coffee or tea? Tea.
Beer or wine?

I drink only wine. So this is my tea.

Okay. Which looks like beer in that 1?

Green green tea.

So you drink white red or white wine?

Red.

Chocolate or cheese?

Chocolate. I I don't I don't eat dairy product
that much.

Yeah. Okay. Dark chocolate rather than milk
chocolate then?

Dark chocolate. Yep. Daily daily 1
piece.

If you were to cook any what is your you said
you cook. What is your signaturedish? What's your favorite food
to cook? Chicken. Chicken whatthough?

Chicken with spicy. Yeah.

Just spicy chicken with rice? With

With rice, yes, with rice.

Okay. What is your least favorite food to eat?

Least favorite food? I don't know. I I wanna
cook what I like.

Please say, so if you were to if you were go to
Phong and you were taken out fora dinner and you didn't get to
choose a menu, it was just themenu is going to be given to
you, you have no choice, what isthe worst food that someone
could put in front of you andyou go oh, no?

What what our cheese involved. It is. I don't
like it. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah.

TV or book?

I watch TV news. Yes.

Okay. So did you watch any trashy TV? I remember
asking Richard Henderson thisand he said

No mainly mainly news. News. People say
turn on news, that's it, I don'twatch TV much.

Okay. Do you have a favourite film?

I watched only movies, comedy movies, not
serious drama or anything.Whatever related to comedy, I
really watch. Even in theflight, I watch only comedy.

Do you have a favorite 1?

Probably don't have many things I can say. I I
really like, the guy here. Whatis his name? I forgot. The 3's
company not 3's company.
The, I really the name is notcoming to me. I was surprised.

I'm no good at actors' names. I also like
comedy films, but don't ask mewho the actors are. I I have to
watch films again a second timebecause I forget what happens.

Yeah. Yeah.

In a moment, I'm not

I I watch a basketball game for sure. And,
you you know, I watch the finalsjust last night. Dallas
Mavericks versus Boston Celtics.So I usually watch basketball
game So

It's like, do you support a team?

I like Los Angeles Lakers. I was watching
for Magic Johnson for a long along time. Magic Johnson and
Larry Bird. And, after that, Idid not watch that much game,
but I watched the finals.

Yeah. And you say you don't read books or not not
often?

I don't have time to read the research
article. I love to read researcharticle or or or something I
read a book about thescientists, what they did. You
know, for example, Einstein and,all those famous people, born in

(50:36):
some you name it. All thosehistorical their background, how
they became a scientist. I wasalways interested to read those
kind of books for sure.
I have a number of books in myhome like that. Yeah.

Star Wars or Star Trek?

I did not watch those movies. Sorry.

India or the US?

Well, I love working here. But, you know, you
miss your family and friends. SoI go every year to India. I am
teaching over there, actually.Now, no.
They cannot come for my friendworkshop. It's a lot of money.
Yep. We have to spend. Now theytold me, you come here.
We pay you a ticket. You comehere and teach us. So, I started

(51:31):
last year, and this year also Iam going. So IIT Madras are
organizing the flood workshop,and I go there and, of course,
visit. A lot of my friends arethere still.
And, you know, now India is likea foreign country for me. I can
get things done here in manynever have been there in India

(51:52):
because, I don't know anybody.So

So how do you find the cultural change now
going from the US back to India?

At least, yeah, that's usually I go. I
don't go in summertime. I goonly in November or December. It
is it is, yeah, hot. Even evenwhen I was there, I was not I
did not go outside at all.
My room is always airconditioned in the lab, so I
always stay there. IIT Madras isclose to the ocean beach.

(52:23):
Evening time, I go out. Untilthen, I stay in my lab. I I work
hard, you know, I completed myPhD degree within 3 years.
I mean, thesis and everything inthe within 3 years. So, I work
hard. I am continuing to workstill the same way. Now all the

(52:44):
time I work. When you retire,

will you carry on working?

I don't know what to do. I will retire. I
don't know when I retire.Everybody asking me a question.
But I am still working like astudent.
So, I don't know. No idea.

Impression of someone who's going to just walk
away 1 day and do somethingelse. You don't give me that
impression at all.

I did not have I did not think about it. And,
yeah, if you think 1 day youwanted to walk away, you would
be wondering what to do nextwithout a plan. Usually, my
personality is that without aplan, I will not step out of my
home. Even if I travel oranything, I know ABCD, what I am

(53:34):
doing every day. So with 3 dayplan, I never step out of my
home even where I travel.
I traveled in many countries,conferences, meeting, invited
talk, and etcetera. I alwaysplanned everything so that my
travel will be smooth, the sameway everything even when I come
to work, what I am going to dotoday? So that's how I work. So

(53:59):
I really do not have idea what Ido after my retirement. As you
know, here, nobody asks you toretire.
You know? He or she can work aslong as you want. So I am just I
am just continuing. So far I didnot think about

it. 1 last part 1 last quick question. What's your
favorite color?

Blue. Blue and white.

See I thought you might have said Tryptophan UV or
Far Red.

It's still good daily. Yeah. Well,

you could've said anything with a 2.2 nanosecond
lifetime. It would've fit aswell. Yeah. We talked about
inspirations. Finally, sweet.
We are coming up, within 5minutes of the app. Do you have
any regrets in your career?

I did not see any regret. I would say that, my
family complained that I amspending a lot of time at work.
So, probably, I should have,spent more time with them. And,
you know, when you think thatyou are to spend your son, he's

(55:15):
gone. So so that's

get that.

Pardon me?

Do you regret spending that much time at work?

Yeah. Regret not spending much time at work.
No.

Do you regret spending that much time at work
and not seeing so much of yourfamily? Or actually, did have
you justified that to yourselfthat actually, no. This was the
right thing?

Well, you know, 1 of my senior, told me
that, you know, if you do whatyou love, you love both your
family and your work, but, yeah,you are to balance the time for

(56:03):
both, for sure. That's what I amdoing, try to do, but more time
for sure at work.

And the family's following sort of in your
footsteps have all gonescientific. They've all gone on
to academia. So they've they'vebeen inspired argue with Yeah.

That is true. They follow me too. Yeah. So
they had seen that how much hardI am working to achieve
anything. And, you know, when Iwhen I when I edited my first
book, my daughter was in thehigh school.
She edited my, preface for thebook, English. Mhmm. Oh, your

(56:44):
English is not good. You know?So they enjoy what I am doing,
and no no question about it.

Well, I I didn't ask. I asked what you want to be
when you were young. It was youwere very early driven to be a
scientist. Obviously, you wentto answer science and physics
and to answer the biologicalquestions using your physics, to
develop technologies to helpaddress problems and critically
looking at what you're doingwith cancer now making quite a
fundamental impact. But if youcould sample any job for a day

(57:18):
or a week, any other type of jobin the world, what type of job
would you like to experience?
Not not as a career, just as aday or a week to know what it's
like to be that type of careeror that type of person.

Well, if you like me to say, I say I would
like to do farming.

You like farming?

Yeah, I came from the farming. I know all the
farming. I worked once my fatherwas sick for 6 months. The whole
crap, I did about 20 acres ofland I was only maintaining and
also going to the college. Socoming every week and trying to
manage that, my father cannot dothat at the time.

(58:06):
So at that time, I learned alot. I love love forming, but,
you know, here I am not doing.If we go back, still my lands
are there, my brother is takingcare of it. But, you know,
that's a very good point. I am Iam still thinking just to go

(58:28):
back after retirement.

That's cool. So so you must have enjoyed that
time even though it soundsreally stressful on a personal
level and just a learning leveland educational and work level
that must have been very intensebut it sounds like you actually
that was good memories.

Yes. Because of the young age, I involved in
forming a lot. When I was anundergraduate student, I still
love it, what I did. Yes. Maybethat's a good idea.
I should go back Afterretirement, I probably enjoy.

I think I've often compared scientists to
farmers and the way that weresearch different feel
different we we have differentcrops in different fields and
rotate them around to besuccessful. And you have your
main crop and try to do verysimilar analogies, and probably
similar work ethic that it itdoesn't stop. It's all year
round.

Yes. Yes. Yes. I agree with you.

And, Massey, we are up to the hour. So So I'm
gonna say thank you very muchfor chatting to us today and
sharing so much about yourchildhood as well, which has
been amazing to learn. It'ssomething that you can't really
read about. Thank you everyonefor watching, listening. Please
do subscribe to whicheverchannel you're listening this
to.
And you've heard I'm actuallytalking about Stefan Haunter,
Weeemirna, Eric Betsey, TonyWilson, all previous guests on

(59:47):
here. So go back and listen tothe back half. I've got Amassie.
Thank you so much from thescientific community as well for
everything you've done indeveloping the technologies but
also delivering the content andthe and the courses in the past
as well around FREDS andcontributing through the
listserv, answering questionsand helping people across the
world. Really fast responses.

(01:00:10):
We've been really helpful to usall. So, Masih, thank you very
much.

Ammasi Periasamy (01:00:13):
Thank you. I enjoy in training others what I
learned. That's that's that'swhy I love this job.

Intro/Outro (01:00:21):
Thank you for listening to The Microscopists,
a Bite Size Bio podcastsponsored by Zeiss Microscopy.
To view all audio and videorecordings from this series,
please visit bitesizebiodotcomforward/v dashmicroscopists.

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