Anna Schueth (Maastricht University)

Episode Transcript
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VX (00:02):
Welcome to the Microscopists, a bite sized bio
podcast hosted by Peter O'Toole,sponsored by Zeiss Microscopy.
Today on the Microscopists

Peter O'Toole (00:13):
Today on the Microscopists, Anna Hsu talks
about the challenges of becominga mom early on in her academic
career.

Anna Schüth (00:20):
Writing a book with a baby crawling on the floor.
Many, many sleepless nights, butI've done it. I defended my, PhD
when he was 1 year old. But bythe time, I was already post
doc. So that was a tough timeand I

Her volunteer worked to champion women in
STEM, including getting some funtattoos.

I wanted to, for her to do is actually do this
female hand. This female handthat is holding this very
beautiful old fashioned, uniquemicroscope because of this whole
well, representation of women inSTEM and so on.

And the importance of stopping to
consider what challenges yourcolleagues might be facing.

Realizing what your colleagues might go through and
what is actually being what

does it mean being on the autism spectrum?

You know? What does it mean autism spectrum? You
know? What does it mean to haveADHD? What does it mean to have
a chronic disease and so on?

All in this episode of The Microscopist. Hi.
I'm Pietro Atul from theUniversity of York. Today on the
microscopist, I'm joined by AnnaShute from Maastricht
University. Anna, how are you?

Hi, Pete. So great that I can join this. I'm doing
fine. What we just said earlier,it's still really warm here. So
once this recording will comeout in September, maybe it's not
so warm anymore, but yeah.
Then I'm sitting in my Luxeando,a t shirt, Light Sheet Works. I
actually turned it upside down,but but it's actually the logo

(01:56):
is on on the other side. This isthe backside of the t shirt, but
I thought it was cool.

Are you gonna comment on the t shirt? Because
it does it like sheet rocks,it's a really cool t shirt to
have on there. I really like it.

Exactly. So that's why I was kind of hoping they
would do it, the other wayaround. And I saw you also have
shirts from this podcast.

We do, and you will be getting one.

Oh, wow.

So straight afterwards, Jace will email you
asking for your size, and Idon't think we've got a choice
of colors anymore. I think weused to. It might be black or
white. I don't know. But Jason

But that's that's pretty awesome. When I was doing
many years ago, 5, 6 years ago,I did this MO course at the Max
Planck Institute in Dresdenorganized by Pavel to Mannschaq.
And there, I got already aLuxembourg T shirt. I wanted to
yeah. It's it was completely itwas just black in the end.
Nothing was on it anymore. So Iwas glad when Luxembourg came

(02:53):
over to our campus, and they dida demo there. So they brought
more t shirts, so I'm now allready to go.

T shirt it out. I I think my team have got some of
the t shirts too. I I could say,Elmi. I used to wear the Elmi t
shirts quite well. Seasonal onesare popular.

Yeah. This was all, pre pandemic. Somehow I mean, I
honestly haven't traveled sincethen. I mean, it's still a
little bit weird and lots ofother personal reasons. And
going through divorce is alsonot, exactly walk in the park
and then being alone with 2little ones, but, yeah, I'm
looking forward to going backthere and getting t shirts and

(03:35):
connecting with people.

Thinking on that, we'll come to the other content
in a minute, but actually I hadloads of the Elmi every year. I
so I had the whole series ofElmi t shirts. And in the end,
actually, the friend we weretalking about before we started
recording when he was inhospital, so I donated them all
to him. It's actually alsoshowed he was a scientist. He
wanted to make sure people wereaware that he wasn't he they

(03:58):
could talk to him and talk aboutthe drugs he was having to take
and everything.

Yeah. Mhmm.

It was just a way for him to show that he was a
scientist and to just give extradetail and he kind of knew what
to do. But anyway, that's anaside. So, Ella

Nice. Congratulations

because you've now started your own academic
group.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm still on my own, but it
feels right, and it feels great.And, yeah, I recently started
since June actually at themedical faculty at our
university. And my my field willswitch from what I did earlier
was human brain research and alittle bit of cancer to a 100%

(04:41):
cancer, and that will be breastcancer and gynecologic cancer
types.
And I'm especially excited aboutthis because we well, my family,
runs endometrial cancer. And youcan't see that now, but I have a
uterus tattooed on my chest, andI also have a you should see
that, like, a little fetus andalso, you know, like a uterus.

(05:02):
And I'm fascinated by this wholesubject of reproduction as well
as oncology. And, yeah, it's adream come true and a way to do
this.

So just notice that that those who are
listening won't be able to seethis, but it's actually a really
cool microscope.

Oh, yeah.

A tattoo

Oh, yes.

As well. I bet we got old school tattoo. Not a not
a fan movement hook, but Mhmm.Classic brass type.

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I, brought to my artist
a few different of images, and Isaid, hey. This is what I like.
And what I also wanted to, forher to do is actually do this
female hand. This female handthat is holding this very
beautiful, old fashioned, uniquemicroscope because of this whole

(05:51):
representation of women in STEMand so on. And I got this for
almost yeah. I wanna say mypersonal anniversary, let's say,
10 years in microscopy. And thenI thought this would be really
cool.
And, I waited also a long timeuntil I found the right, you
know, the right, design. And Ialso have a few from the UK from

(06:14):
when I was at the conference.And where was it? Manchester. So
that's cool.
Yeah. I'm also at the SocietyFor Neuroscience. I collect a
few tattoos once I wastraveling. Yeah.

So I collect t I used to have t shirts. You just
have tattoos with which one thatyou go to. I'm looking for the
forward to the microscopytattoo.

Yeah. I mean, hey. Why not? I I yeah. Sometimes
people call you crazy for doingthis photo key.
And I mean, my neck tattoo wasquite and, statement, let's say,
as well. And, Yeah. I alwaysthought, actually, I wanna do
the the full sleeves by the timeI might have the faculty member
job and the permanent position.But then I I don't know. It's

(07:00):
this whole thing of, you know,life's short.
Why wait until God knows when ina few years' time? And then I
thought, you know what? I'mgoing to do it. And within I
don't remember anymore months orsomething. I had it all
completely, full arms, thechest, and the entire back,
everything.
Yeah. Well, I like that.

So you mentioned, the one with the hand on the the
the lady's hand on the mask. Andthere's there's many things to
cover today. Yeah. There'sthere's your career. I want to
understand how you've got intowhere you are today.
Women in STEM and how you'vebeen supporting to know you're
quite active, on a volunteervolunteering side for many
aspects, not just women in STEM.And obviously some mental health

(07:46):
issues in the past as well. ButI'm gonna I'm gonna go back. I
just I'm gonna go back to whenyou were a young a young child.
Yes.
And what was the first job thatyou can remember actually
aspiring to be?

Oh, wow. That's a good question. So I I think, my
mom always tells me thesestories. Once I could walk, I
would walk around and collectlittle insects and so on. So
zoology and any kind of animalstudies also was already very
early on.
And I think when I was inkindergarten and early days of
school, I wanted to become aveterinarian. I mean, I grew up

(08:23):
on a farm where my, parents hadthese large animals, and this is
what I really liked. I wanted todo this as well. And they would
always say, ah, that's not for agirl. You know?
That's not really for you. So Iwent then in the direction of
zoology, what I actuallystudied, so classic biology.
And, what I also I mean, thiswhole science aspect. So I when

(08:46):
I was 7, my parents gave me myfirst little microscope as a
gift. And then I even I didn'trealize it, but I made my own
little lab journal.
I wrote down notes. I would drawwhat I saw through the
microscope, and I would connectsamples. I don't know. Insects,
hairs from my dog or my poorfather, and he had to give me

(09:07):
some samples. And this was soyeah.
I lost I I became lost in thisworld of of microscopy, and that
was it. I I I don't know how toexplain. I mean, you know how it
feels when you are imaging, butthis was, for me, incredible to
see these things that areotherwise invisible. And then,
yeah, you know, the rest ishistory. That that was it.

I'd love to know what percentage of scientists
had that at that really earlyage because there's a fair few
and there's others that came toscience much later. Yeah. It'd
be quite interesting to know howmuch that is. So so you've
always been science driven. Sowhat was your first degree, and
where did you do your degree?

So, yeah, I had always been fascinated by
science and, the well, what Isaid, I studied classic biology
in I don't know. It's it's lowerSaxony in Germany. It's it's
called Gottingen. It's quitefamous actually in Germany. And,
yeah, there I did my degree, andI don't know to what, extent you

(10:11):
now wanna go from science intomath, because that had been
really eventful, and that hadbeen one of the key moments that
I didn't realize at the timewhich shaped then the rest of,
you know, the course of my life,let's say.

So what so Yeah. What happened?

Yeah. So then I was I mean, I'm my parents, how to
say they have 4 kids. Right? SoI have 3 siblings. And then I
was when I was, moving out forme, it was clear.
I wanted to go to study, and Ireally wanna learn more about
science. And that was, for me,amazing. That's that was clear.
So I went there, and my parents,they told me from the beginning,

(10:51):
we do not have any money tosupport you. So I had to work
multiple jobs, and this wholekinda almost poverty thing, I
mean, sometimes I had not evenmoney to buy food.
It was, in hindsight, ridiculoushow I actually managed that, and
then I was hitting a a a point,probably multiple reasons
because then I failed a coupleexams, had to work so much, and

(11:14):
then I I thought, okay. Thiscannot go on. I don't know. I
didn't even realize there wouldbe a tomorrow. Right?
And this all ended in a suicideattempt. And then, I I mean,
then I wouldn't speak about it,obviously. I wouldn't speak
about it. It was just what itwas. Luckily, now this was

(11:37):
something where I'd say I cameout of it a lot stronger.
I'm not saying this is somethingyou should, you know,
experience. Obviously, it'shorrible, but this made me the
person I am today so that yeah.I I would say I have become a
more resilient person throughoutthis whole time, and I'm just so
grateful. Every day I wake upand I'm so happy and I I can't

(12:02):
even expand. Everything is justI mean, when you put it in
relation to, you know, you had abad meeting.
Oh, great. Or a stupid email. Imean, this is this is nothing
compared to that when you thinkabout it.

And then you did your degree. You went on to a
PhD?

First, I did a 3 year science, how do you call
the scientific fellowship inGermany at the University of
Lubeck. And there, I startedwith intravital to photon
microscopy of the mouse cut.Yeah. And then, you know, you
see all these things, lifehappening. You see the immune
reactions.

(12:40):
You see nanoparticle uptake andso on. And that is yeah. I don't
know how to explain it. It isabsolutely amazing. And then I
thought I didn't even realizethat something like this would
be possible.
And, yeah, that was it. So I Iknew I'm going to stay in
imaging. And since then, not oneday has been boring or ever that

(13:03):
I thought I wanna do somethingdifferent. So

Popper sort of scientific microscope.

Sorry? What what do you

Do you remember what the first scientific so not
the one you had at home, but,you know, the first sort of
professional microscope youused. Do you remember what the
first microscope was?

Yeah. That was, Leica 2 photon, and they also
had, back in the days calledSTLA vision, like a triumph
scope. Mhmm. There, it's, whatwas an institute of biomedical
optics where they had differenttypes, and then they could play
around with a different setupsand so on. And yeah.
So intravital tophotomicroscopy.

So why the move to MastFit after that?

Yeah. I I wanted to experience a little bit, life
abroad. And then for whateverreason, I went to a conference
in Zurich and then I thought,oh, Zurich is really awesome. So
I was thinking Switzerland. ThenI talked to a few people at the
poster session.
They said, you know what?Netherlands is great. I thought,
okay. I never really thoughtabout it, but then I looked up,

(14:10):
a couple of, job advertisements.And maybe it's, you know,
sometimes things happen how theyshould happen also, and there
was this position in mastery, onincontinence, actually, on
letter research.
And I thought, okay. Got aletter. It's not too far away.

(14:32):
Maybe I just try. And I applied.
It was actually a militaryfellowship and got it. That was
that. I mean I mean yeah.

Was it last week?

Yeah. Exactly. And since then, I'm here. So that
was 20 when did I apply? 2010.
And 2011, I came to Maastricht,and since then, I'm here. Yeah.

So you've been in Maastricht now for 13 years?

Yeah. It's it's yeah. I should totally get a
Maastricht tattoo now. Yeah.

You haven't got anything to mark master it. Duh.

Yeah. Well, the the the science stuff. Okay. Right?
So that kinda counts.

That's the strange thing because we live in
a world where everyone ispassionate about microscopes.
Let me the vast majority are, Ithink, at that point.

I don't know. Yeah. Maybe. I don't know. I I think,
there's a different type ofpassion.
Right? There's this passion of,hey. I wanna get good results
and apply it to something, or Ireally wanna get my hands on it
and build it and so on. And overthe years, I have seen different
types of passion, I would say.And, yeah, some that's maybe

(15:46):
stand out.

So That's right there. And if you think about
the conferences, you have theend users, you have the
developers. Yeah. So there thereis that, and you have the
enablers. I I think that's thebiggest one.

That's also something I really like is to be
somewhere the the person thatbuild just builds a bridge, that
you have. The people, the, well,the clinicians, you have the
data scientists, you have thebiologists, and they all speak a
different language. And they Ithink the whole aspect of
science communication is soimportant in finding a way to

(16:22):
communicate this. So yeah.

So on your, your voluntary side as well. So
you've got a full time job.You've got family, people come
to you. And you've got time forvolunteering as well.

Yeah. I mean, it had to take a little bit of a
back seat, but, I mean, dependson what you call volunteering
and whatnot. But I have been, afew years ago, I have been
volunteering for DragonflyMental Health, which is a global
mental health organization. Soeveryone who's listening can
just type in Google DragonflyMental Health, and they have

(16:58):
lots of amazing resources andthings, available online. And
then I would, for example, whenI a few years while back, I
started my blog.
It's, I call it academic matterhouse, blog. And while uploading
a story takes a couple ofminutes, you can do that after

(17:20):
work or something like that. Butthat was something I definitely
was passionate about. Afterprobably 10 years of, mentoring
high school girls in the fieldof STEM, I kinda paused that for
a bit. And then I'm also amember of the so called
Maastrichtang Academy that isreally passionate about changing

(17:42):
things in academia that could bechanged and policy making and so
on.
And they just now took the leadof the outreach group. But that
is well, I don't know. I don'tcall that volunteering, I would
say.

Okay. So within all that, and do you think that
actually helped you get youracademic post, or did it hinder?
I I think I know what the answeris to this, but I'm gonna ask
anyway. Doing all this voluntarystuff, this extra stuff outside
of just being in the lab, do youthink that was beneficial to
your career?

That's a good question, and I would say, I
mean, I'm not sure. I mean, now,there is this time where we in
the in the Netherlands havethis, rewards and recognition
where we say everyone should berecognized and rewarded for
their unique talents. Somepeople are excellent teachers.
Others are super good in grantwriting. And, obviously, in a

(18:41):
way, you need to do both, right,or all the different things,
but, it's great to have uniquetalent.
But I would say back in the daywhen I have done this, it was
maybe rather a bit of ahindrance. And it's a I have to
be careful how to formulatethis, but, obviously, you you

(19:02):
were asked well, I was asked todo a lot of lab work then. You
know, when you are PhD student,you have to do certain things.
When you're a postdoc, you haveto do certain things. With
getting higher up, you have alittle bit more independence,
and then you need to figure outwhat to do with your time on
your own.
But yeah. But I but I thinktimes have changed. And now I

(19:24):
would say, if you get theopportunity, do it. However, I
also wanna say that I've neverdone anything because it looks
good on the CV because that'snonsense. I mean, that doesn't
work.
Then.

You're not gonna volunteer for singing. You're
not going well, you shouldn'tvolunteer for singing. You're
not going to enjoy. I I didn'timagine that actually it's
probably helped you in in beingable to juggle because you'd
have had those aspects. Andactually if you looked at a CV
and you saw someone whovolunteered and they're
passionate about it, it showsthey can create time and you
know you should be able to havemore than one thing in your
life.

Yeah. And it's not Yeah.

Work. And I think that volunteering is part of
your other side.

Yeah. By now, it is also this case. And I I think
even when you go for theselarger personal grants, now that
they also will say, hey. Whathave you done in terms of
outreach, and what have you donein terms of, I don't know, yeah,
these kind of things, you know,advocacy and then being a member
of these specific groups. Butback in the day, it, it sounds

(20:26):
like I'm god knows how old, butthen it wasn't quite like that.
Then it was really about this,what's the impact factor of your
journal? How many papers do youhave? And I'm thinking we are
going a little bit in thedirection where, you know, more
the the other things arecounting and, the yeah. Open
science, you know, all thesethings.

Yeah. And that's the same in the UK, actually.
Very, very similar now that eeven CV, the government funding,
you don't put in a CV. You nowhave to do a case about which
includes your outreach, yourimpacts, and your other bits
around. It's not all aboutapplications, which is which is
healthy to a degree, but youstill have to publish,
obviously.
And digital publishers,actually, if you for those who

(21:10):
are listening or watching, whatis your blog website address?
It's it's quite easy, but

It's my name.

That is

It's my name. It's it's it's anashi.com. And the
reason being was that I waswell, the story behind it is
that I was, working in thepandemic in the lab. And, well,
let's say I was working in thepandemic, online and also in
person a little bit. And there,I came across a few people that

(21:40):
were dealing with either suicideattempt, suicide attempt of a
family member.
And then the tip of the icebergwas that, former colleague of
mine told me that she had anabortion, and she doesn't think
that you can have kids in yourPhD. And then she said, hey,
Anna. You had a child halfwaythrough your PhD. If you maybe

(22:03):
speak about this more, maybemore encouraged to actually have
a child as well. And I could notbelieve that this was a thing.
And, then I thought, you knowwhat? I called my brother and
said, hey. You know how to makethis website. You know? Can you
please help me?
And then he did this for me, orwe did it together. I uploaded

(22:25):
the first couple of ownpersonal, stories, and then I
thought I need a name. Whatcould I name this blog? I don't
know. Whatever.
And he said, yeah. For now, it'syour name, and then you can
later on change it. Yeah. Well,the day never came. The website
never finished.
The name never finished. Andthen I thought, who cares? I

(22:45):
just wanna get these storiesout, and then it went completely
viral. I couldn't believe it. Imean, by now, I think, yeah,
several million people writethese stories, and I shared them
also on Twitter.
Never had social media reallybefore this block, and I only
started Twitter actually toshare the stories. And 100, if

(23:08):
not 1,000 messages have reachedme. People saying, hey. You
helped me so much feeling seenand heard. And, and then the
great thing was when someonesaid, hey.
I I feel recognized in thisparticular story. Can you share
mine? And then I thought, okay.And then it had to pause at some
point because it was getting toomuch. Yeah.

(23:30):
That was the story.

Yeah. And I've gotta say, well, go to your
other as well, though, becausethe website looks really cool
when you go to it. I do like thesignature. Well, I thought that
was a really nice touch.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's it's it's actually true. I
got a lot of, comments on thatand, yes, I was picky about a
few things, but then, I mean,obviously, the research section
still really needs quite a bitof work. And that's something I
now think because I also like,I've done a few events.
For example, this brain sciencemeets, data science and

(24:04):
microscopy with pint of signs ina path and sharing signs, and it
was really fun that I thought Ishould post pictures of that,
like I put on Twitter, and thenalso linking protocols and
making it more open access,actually. Because I really like
what people are doing there,but, you know, I'm just one

(24:26):
person.

Yeah. It doesn't stop there though, has it?
Because they've been writingarticles. So you've got you've
got your lab science.

Yeah.

People also have your mental health sciences
going in Yeah. The likes ofnature and other magazines. So
the popular magazines, the thelate public magazines Mhmm. As
well as the actual sort of thehardcore niche science journals
and magazines.

So Yes. Actually, true. I mean, so it's now in
Nature, Science, Wiley. Yeah. AsI said, another Nature invited,
papers, up and running, and Ihave a couple more things up my
sleeve, but I will not, getshocked about it.
But, that was then for me alsocompletely, I don't know,

(25:11):
surprised that someone or, theseeditors would say, hey. I write
your blog. Fantastic. Would youwrite for us? Yeah.
I mean, that's so cool becausewhy I've done it, not so much
again that it looks great on myCV or what. That was really
never the point. The point wasgive this a larger platform.
Give this a larger platform thatI say, hey, bring mental health

(25:34):
on the agenda. And then it, madewaves in that sense that I was
invited to speak at, forexample, PhD, how do you say,
retreats and so on and directlyto the PhD students, but also to
the supervisors for their night.

So Well, and I was going to point out that, you
know, even if you're listening,watching, and you don't suffer
from mental health or don'tthink you're suffering from
mental health, it's worthreading some of the blogs
because you might recognize itin other people around you that
you may not otherwise. It helpsyou pick up the symptoms
earlier. Yeah. And then they getin to actually offer support or
to raise this because quiteoften the person involved you're

(26:13):
meant to have doesn'tnecessarily recognize it first
themselves. Yeah.
You're useful to bring it up.

It's it's it's absolutely true. And, I mean,
this was also why I did with,with another colleague or
colleague slash friend from thelaw faculty, Mark Kawakami. We
founded this flourish master.This group actually to increase
the mental health support, butalso the whole literacy around
it because I think I trulybelieve is when you know more

(26:41):
about it, it's, you know, reallyhelpful. Also, realizing what
your colleagues might go throughand what is actually being what
does it mean being on the autismspectrum?
You know? What does it mean tohave ADHD? What does it mean to
have a chronic disease and soon? And, yeah, it's it's,

(27:02):
important, I feel. But, yeah, wehave been hibernating also for
some time, but we were we werethink, of maybe getting new
members and so on and then seethat we can get this up and
running.

You also some of you well, you've beamed an
interview on podcasts. You'vebeen in my seat on podcasts.
What's it like being that sideof a podcast?

You mean being being a host?

What's it like being like being the guest of a
podcast rather than the otherway around?

Yeah. Yeah. Because I had been, the host of a campus
podcast in data science. Well,you don't have to prepare. You
don't have any work.
Right? You don't have to set upany kind of, technology and so
on. And, yeah, it's really fun.I mean, either way. Right?

(27:50):
It's fun to share your story andso on, but I do also really
enjoy having a guest talkingabout whatever kind of different
topic because I think every timesomeone has a story to tell and
you learn something. And Ialways say a day where I didn't
learn anything is, almost like awasted day or so, and I try to

(28:11):
make sure I learn something newevery day. Yeah.

So you had, we we we talked about some of the
volunteering. The other bigchunk of your the other half of
your life is not more than thethe other half of your life for
your children. I think you'vegot more than one child, haven't
you?

Yeah.

I'm sure.

Well, not not quite half because I am now 43, I have
to think. And my son is turning10 in 4 weeks, and my daughter
has turned last month 5. So,yeah, that's that's definitely
well, obviously, having a childhalfway through a PhD, that was
quite something. It wasdefinitely a challenge. In

(28:49):
hindsight, I don't even know howI've done this writing a book
with a baby crawling on thefloor.
Many, many sleepless nights, butI've done it. I defended my, PhD
when he was 1 year old. But bythe time, I was already postdoc.
So that was a tough time. And, Imean, when you are a good team,

(29:11):
the entire family, then, thatworks.
Yeah. But it's it's it's been,tough. And, I mean, when I don't
know, how to say that. This isthis is obviously another thing
I'm really passionate about isthis whole women on maternity
leave. And because anotherinteresting story of mine is
actually that when I now am thislaureate of the so called award,

(29:35):
which is quite, yeah, good forDutch scientists, and I was
invited to the interviewalready, a year before I was
awarded.
I was awarded 2020 and the yearbefore. And that round of
interview didn't work quite aswell because I was in labor. I

(29:58):
mean, I was standing there, 30kilos extra. I travel breathing,
and I thought, oh, please, baby,stay in there for another hour.
It was I mean and now I'mlaughing about it, but in that
moment, I'm in pain.
I'm thinking I'm worried becauseI was unemployed at the time
with the idea of being at homewith 2 kids was, no. Not so

(30:21):
great, you know, but okay. Ormaybe yeah. What can I say? That
was not a a great situation tobe in.
Unfortunately, it didn't gothrough, so they had no mercy
with me, although, I had veryhigh grades, but okay. What I
liked was that, now president ofthe university back then,

(30:42):
Rector, she said, hey. Come tomy office. Tell me the story.
How can it be that they inviteyou on that day to the
interview?
And then, I put it on socialmedia, and I remember I got a
lot of, reactions. And thenanother funding organization
reached out to me and said, hey.Let's talk. Then we had a couple

(31:04):
meetings, and afterwards, theyactually changed this whole
scheme. You can now upload avideo.
And, I thought it is impossibleto have 2 days in the year, but
if this one particular day fallson the day you go into labor, I
mean yeah. So that's why I wasvery, how to say, doing quite

(31:24):
some efficacy on you can't havean interview even in your
maternity and afterwards. And,the amount of women that reach
out to me and said, yeah. I wentthere breastfeeding. My baby was
in intensive care and I had toprepare, interview with it.
This is yeah. No. I mean, thisis this is not showing not out

(31:46):
of the

Yeah. Yeah. Did you take much time off after
having your child? We we let'sgo to the second one. So you
have 5 years.

I mean, this is another thing. I think I think
you should never call it timeoff because a maternity leave is
really I mean, it's what is it?Feeding and changing diapers and
you are busy. You know? You arereally busy.
So it's it's not you don't havetime for anything else,
basically. And the time you havein the Netherlands is this,

(32:21):
yeah, 12 weeks, 16 weeks, range,and that's it. That that that's
the time you have with yourbaby, but I had a sick leave,
which was many months. So I wasfrom halfway through my
pregnancies on sick leave, bedrest. So but that that was, also

(32:42):
not really fun to experience.
But then luckily, I am, yeah,super grateful that I have 2
healthy kids. And, speaking towomen in my environment, I
realized that is, yeah,infertility is down, and so on
and the force. And I I mean, Itouch upon this in my on my blog
that I also lost one baby inbetween, at 11 weeks. And, yeah,

(33:09):
that was something what I feltwas needed to speak about it
publicly as well. And, Yeah.
This was another one of thesevirus stories where so many
women were saying theyexperienced this as well. What I
really liked about it was thefact that I said, you know what?
I talked to my former PI aboutthis, and he said, take the time

(33:32):
you need. So I took 3, 4 weeksoff, and, I shared this online,
and then some other women wouldsay, because of you, I had the
courage as well to ask for timeoff. Because going through
something like this, you I mean,as far as I'm concerned, I I I
would just go to the office andI would cry.

(33:54):
You know? I wasn't I wasabsolutely useless, and I
remember my supervisor thensaid, why are you here? You
know? Go home. And I know thatthis is, fortunate to have.
Not everyone has this, but Ijust really wanna wished that
this would be possible foreveryone. But number 1 is saying

(34:16):
that you actually experience it.And I realized that most women
are embarrassed to to share thiswith anyone for that matter.
Yeah.

Why do why do you think do you think it's makes
everyone look weaker? Because Ithink from a male side, if
there's any personal going on,be generally, they wouldn't try
and show it to work. Is itbecause they're not wanting to
show weakness, maybe?

It's, when it comes to mental health and anything
like that, obviously, or anytype of disease and so on,
anything where you're strugglingbecause in academia, there's
high competition. You need to bestrong. Why? That's what you
think. Right?
And, with this whole topic onmiscarriage and infertility,
it's this whole, shame, I think.I mean, I most certainly didn't

(35:04):
have that, but I know from,other women, they go through
this. They say, I I feel like I,yeah, this sounds absolutely
ridiculous, but as in it's theduty of me as a as a woman. I
need to be pregnant. I need tobe capable of having a child, a
healthy baby.
And when I cannot do this, thensomething is wrong with me. And

(35:26):
that's some yeah. That is verysad because, obviously, it's not
your fault. And, yeah, that's

yeah. That's the strength of the blog, isn't it?
And the strength of sharing yourstory because, again, because so
many people don't talk about it.Yeah. The prevalence isn't as
obvious.
Yeah. Exactly. People willrealize actually it's not
normal, but it's normal. It'snot it's not there. They're not
alone.
It's not in the UK. It's notseem to be ashamed of. It's not

(35:56):
it's it's life. I mean, it'sit's so which is why it's so
important to share that. I I Iwould agree with you.

It's it's absolutely true. And, I mean,
that's why I said the amount ofwomen that would, reach out to
me. And then also once I sharedmine, a couple other shared
theirs. And I think one of themost horrific ones was when
someone, another woman sharedthat she was at her PhD. How do
you call this Viva, I think, inin the Netherlands in the UK.

(36:25):
Sorry. And at that moment, sheat this very moment, she
miscarried her child. And Idon't wanna get too graphic, but
it's obviously you are inhorrendous pain. And how can you
and she would say she wouldn'tyeah. She would mask it.
I don't even know how. And thenthe how can that be? You know?

(36:48):
And then others would say, oh, Iexperienced this the same the
same and and and then, it reallyhelps. Plus, also, those who
have written say it was almostlike a therapy effect.
I mean, I'm not saying it'stherapy. Please don't get me
wrong, but the whole writingaspect is is very, helpful in

(37:10):
this moment when you maybe havenever spoken about this with
anyone. Have you reflected,

with your your advocacy and, making things
aware, how many people's livesyou may have affected in a
positive way? You ever thoughtabout that?

Do you mean how many people have affected my
life in a positive way? No.

No. No. The other way around. How many peep you
because you've never got thecontent, the people have read
it. How many people have youactually helped?

I don't know. I don't know. Have you ever

thought about it? Just how many have you

Yeah. I I don't know.

Positive influence.

Yeah. If you just look at the hard facts, so to
say, which is maybe, let's say,a DM on Twitter or maybe also on
LinkedIn, I mean, you can countthem, and I think I stopped
counting at a couple hundred. Idon't know. But way more, than
the comments on social media,several hundred. I don't know,
honestly.

(38:09):
And and lots of people say,well, I am following quietly
along, and I don't comment or Inever really because you know?
And then that that's that's agood question, and that's why I
said that the views are severalmillion, so you you count. I
don't know.

It'd be a lot, and I think that's something to
be really proud of and anamazing accomplish
accomplishment.

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, that is, in a way true,
I think. Yeah. I don't know.
And and I never really thought,oh, I'm so proud of this
accomplishment. I alwaysthought, my god. These people
are suffering in silence. I wishto help, and I always thought,
what can I do? I'm just oneperson.
But this is an example of whatcan you accomplish if you are

(38:57):
just one person. Then you askanother person for help. And and
then I remember when I went to,I went through the forest for a
walk with a friend of mine, andI told her about this. Yeah. I
have this idea of doing thisvlog, but I'm really afraid.
I was nervous. You can't evencomprehend how nervous I was and

(39:19):
so afraid because, I mean, whois putting a story of their own
suicide attempt on the Internet?I I I thought this not in a
gazillion years would I do this.And then, she said, yeah. It's a
great idea.
Do it. And I thought, okay. Hitonline. And then I go, oh god.
It's online.

(39:41):
And then, you know, you wannahide under under somewhere, but
it's, it went it went well, Iwould say. So it's always this
sometimes we need to pushthrough fear. I mean, I I know
it's hard, but this is there'salways something on the other
side, oftentimes, at least.Yeah.

Moving on to the work life balance, how do you
balance having your own lab nowor starting your own lab, having
your children? How how do youhow do you balance that?

Yeah. So it's a good question, and I think and
sometimes I wonder if there'ssuch a thing as a work life
balance. But I also do believethat having children is actually
helping me more than the otheraround. I mean, obviously, it's
it's, it's a blessing to havethem. But I sometimes thought,
back in the day, my PhDsupervisor said, oh, they are

(40:34):
helping you.
And I thought, hey. What does hemean? They're helping me. And if
they if I wouldn't havechildren, I think I would only
be doing advocacy and workingand in the lab and so on. And
this is actually taking time offand learning to be in the
moment.
So last week, we, had a week ofholidays, and it was just, you

(40:55):
know, water, ice cream, kids.That's it. No lab, no meetings,
no nothing. And I have to behonest, I've struggled with that
before, this whole taking timeoff and also mentally. You can
sit somewhere but be notpresent.
You know? You can be with yourmind somewhere else. And it is,

(41:16):
in academia, especially reallyhard, and I it took some
transition time for sure. And, Iwould say my number one tool for
this is the running.

Which I was also going to say because it it's
Yeah. You've got your family,got work. But, actually, would
you say running is your Yeah.Mind where you kind of have a
bit of space to think

Yeah.

Otherwise. And that I run and I know when I
run, I can just think aboutanything and there is sometimes
it's work, sometimes it'sfamily, sometimes it's anything.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. I noticed you've ran your was it your
first marathon recently?

Yeah. Yeah. Congratulations. Yeah. Thanks.
It was, actually last September,and, yeah, I'm running for, I
think, now 30 what am I saying?Since I'm 30. So since I'm 30,
so that's now several years.And, I I mean, I was already

(42:19):
running, I don't know how manyhalf marks on. I can't even
count them anymore.
And then I would run one time upto 35 k, and then I thought, for
whatever reason, I told myself Icannot run further, which is
obviously nonsense, but thiswhole thing is, it sounds also
very strange and you willunderstand, but this this is a

(42:39):
mindset shift as in I thought,you know what? I'm doing it. I'm
training now. This is the plan.I stick to the plan, and then it
will be fine.
And then the day came, and thenI ran, and then it was
completely mind blowing to methat my legs were really cool
with it. So they were sayingbasically, hey, another 10 k is
good. But, yeah, it's we arecapable of of more than we

(43:06):
think. That's the whole point, Ithink.

So, Jonathan, next.

So, I mean, I'm intrigued by at least, let's
say, 50 Kenya or so. But, yeah,I don't know. I think maybe it's
healthy to do another 42 andthen see, but, I mean, those 8
k. I mean Have you done, Ultra?

Yeah. No. I did a 24 hour 100 mile Oh my god. Run
a couple of years ago. ButFlorio Florio and Jack does
similar.
He he does super but, actually,it's not that hard. It's just
pacing. A bit like yourmarathon, if you pace it, run
it, you're good. If you go a bittoo fast or too hard, you don't
actually, I I would rather I'drather run the 24 hour than try

(43:54):
and race a marathon.

Okay. Yeah. No. Truly agree. I mean, this is
this is this is also something Ifound very important, to not
think anymore about time.
I mean, there was a time where Isaid I leave my watch at home.
I'm not even tracking thatbecause I lost the whole fun. It
was only about, oh, no. I didn'thit my training goal. And, oh,
that's bad, and I don't have mymileage.

(44:17):
And then I thought, okay. Thisthis is not good. I need to
enjoy the trees and the birds,and then it became fun again. So
it's not about time. No.

See see, in spring, I will go and count the
number of species of bird I canhear or see. So it's very so so
that means sometimes you'll stop

Yeah.

And then and then carry on again. So it's it's
it's much more running with afriend is is also you talk, and
you you change your pace to suiteach other.

And that's Yeah. That's, I mean, that's something
I'm asked all the time by myfriends and other people. Even
someone who follows me onTwitter and says, hey. Shall we
go for a run? But, I cannot runwith people.
I've done this in the past thatI ran with colleagues. But, no,
if I feel like I wanna gofaster, please do not disturb

(45:11):
me. I wanna race today, or Iwanna do hill reps, or I wanna
do whatever, or I wanna be superslow, and then I feel so bad.
You know what I mean? It's justI wanna do my that that's that's
my alone time.
Please do not take this awayfrom me.

No. No. I I would have said the same and Yeah. I
definitely I I was runningmarathons by myself, training by
myself, didn't I like my owncompany, my own pace, my own
time, and then I ran with Stuartand

Yeah. Yes.

And then so, actually, if he's running slow,
I feel quite good about myselffor going slow with him. So I
get Yeah. But actually, if it'sthe other way around, I think,
well, I've been in his position.He understands. And look, we can
always go off if we wanted to,but we never do.
Yeah. But he doesn't mind. Youknow, if he's feeling fitter,
he'll do a few stretches andback a while, do some sprints,

(45:58):
and then come back. It's like wewe are yeah. Yeah.
It works nicely. And actually,Elmi, we have a small running
group, in the

I think I saw that on social media, and then I
thought, oh, I don't know. Imean, I've seen these running
groups, and I'm intrigued, but Idon't know. I would feel, you
know, there's this impostorsyndrome thingy that's still
come creeping into my my headand saying, yeah. You should run
with them. They are so good, andlook at you.
So,

I know. It's just to tell me, it's not, again,
it's not about time. It's justabout Yeah. Talking to different
people and just sharing. But allthese weekly runs are by myself.

Yeah. 100%. Yeah. It it's definitely true. But, I
mean, this whole what you saidearlier about this, thoughts and
running and so on, this is this,I mean, very, yeah, how do you
say that?
I really recall after a long dayin the lab as a PhD student, I
would come home, take off myshoes, put on my running shoes.

(47:02):
That was the first thing I'vedone, and then just run. And
then there's this point of what,you know, how you call this,
runner's high, whatever youwanna call this. But this not
thinking, and I remember duringmy PhD, this was almost the only
time I could switch off my head.Because there's always this, oh,
no experiments and data analysisand writing and worrying, and
you have a temporary contract,and then there's a child on the

(47:26):
way.
I mean, this is stress.

So Having children must make it more
difficult to find the time to II I think I'm really early. My
my I'm older now. So I can runreally early, so I'm back before
they're getting out of bed mostof the time, certainly the
weekends.

Yeah. It's it's definitely a, a struggle, but I
refuse to say, oh, I have kids.I can't. You know? Oh, I have
children.
I can't. I mean, obviously, it'sit's a lot tougher. But then
yeah. What I just told youbefore we started recording, I,
got a treadmill now, which is Ialways said, oh my god. How can

(48:03):
you?
You know? For 10 years, I wasonly running outside, and now I
really thought, k. You knowwhat? If you wanna train for
another marathon and you need toget your mileage, and how on
earth are you accomplishingthis? And I cannot leave my kids
alone after the divorce beingwith them alone.
That's you have to be creative,and that's what it is. And on

(48:26):
the bright side, what I reallylike is they know it. They know,
okay, mom is doing that, or Igot to run a, run a spaggy, and
we would run outside and or dowhatever type of workout, and
they basically are born withthat. So it's also, I hope, an
example that they, follow atsome point.

Yeah. I was gonna make do you actually listen to
music on the treadmill?

Yeah. I am team music. Oh, what do you mean?
Yeah. Yeah.

You you do listen to music.

Yeah. When you

want to play. So outside, I when I run outside, I
don't use music at all. I like Ilike to hear my surroundings,
but inside on a treadmill sowhat do you listen to?

I don't listen. I mean, it's it's a mix. Right? I
like Madonna. I like all kindsof I will not say all kinds of
music, but I have I don't knowwhat to have on there.
Foo Fighters. Different things.Let's not talk about music. It's
always so controversial. But,what I wanted to say was yeah.

(49:30):
I mean, obviously, when my kidsare there and I have to listen
to what they're doing, yeah, Icannot run with music. That's
the thing. And yeah. But theyknow, this is this is what is
it? 20, 30 minutes, I I cannotrun a lot longer.
And, outdoors, I like music. I'mafraid that's maybe almost some

(49:53):
people call it cheating. Yeah. Iknow that, but I really, enjoy
that as well.

No. It's cutie. Yeah. Does it does it hey. So I
would ask if you about, like,some quick fire questions.

Okay? So are

you an early bird or an eye town? Both. Okay. PC
or Mac?

Oh, no Mac. No. Thanks.

Okay. So oh, okay. So McDonald's or Burger
King?

Yeah. McDonald's. Although, since I 1 year, I'm
not vegan, And so that's why, Imean, McDonald's means for me,
maybe a coffee or fries and,that's also I try to really eat
more healthy and fries is notexactly but, yeah, obviously,
the kids still like the happymeal and we go there. So

(50:43):
McDonald's.

Oh, coffee.

That is not a question.

Coffee, coffee then, I presume.

Oh, oh, oh, fizzy coffee. I mean, a lot of coffee.
That's that's one thing I can'tget off. I mean, I also quit
alcohol a year ago, and that'sall good, but you can't take my
coffee away. Coffee and runningis something I need.

I'll just take off my next question of a beer.

What what's your next question?

Beer or wine? It's gonna be like that because
you you stopped drinking.

But then it would be beer that was before.

Yeah. I will say, Anna, though

Yeah. Cut

down your caffeine intake and have it
before your long runs.

Yeah. It's

Then you then you can actually get your yeah. You
you bring down your receptors.You get enough some caffeine,
kick for your long runs.

And I mean what I mean with coffee is also both
normal coffee and decaf. It'sjust I like the taste and so I
also yeah. But you see, I startto defend myself. Yeah.

Yeah. We I yeah. We I've lots of decaf choices.
Yeah. Chocolate or cheese?

Yeah. Vegan, no cheese. But, I mean, obviously,
you have vegan cheese, but it's,chocolate. I mean, that's
definitely I still have darkchocolate, which I really like.
Yeah.

Mhmm. Now eat tin or eat hand?

Also, I prefer cooking myself and I know what's
in there. Also, my kids bothhave a milk allergy, so I really
enjoy if if you would have toldme, 2 years ago, one day you
would say that, I wouldn't havebelieved you because then I
didn't like cooking at all. Butnow I really enjoy cooking and
making healthy choices. Soundslame, but it's true.

Is that a new hobby?

Is it a question?

A new a new hobbies, cooking over, the rest.
It's I I don't see potential,but it's it's also good fun. TV
or book?

Yeah. I would say book, but now with kids and so
on, we we watch sometimes moviesand well, since kids, you know,
the movie number goes up quite abit. Before, it was books since
my mom told me, in early schooldays, I had very quickly once I

(53:12):
learned reading, 400 books also.I mean, she said you are glued
to a book. I was obsessed withit and yeah.
Books. Yeah.

Talk to a fiction, those books.

Yeah. Well, as a child, fiction. Right? All kinds
of different stories and so on.And now, also, yeah, a mix.
Okay.

So What's your favorite film?

I like this is not embarrassing, maybe. I like
Sleepless in Seattle, forexample. I like my stuff a lot.
I don't know. These guys

Good answers. Star Wars or Star Trek? None.
No? Not taken.
I can't ask your favorite musicbecause you said it'd be too
controversial. So if you goaway, are you someone who's
gonna relax on the beach, or areyou a culture vulture and wants
to be going on it every dayexploring new sites?

That's also I think that changes over the years. I
mean, before I was definitelyteam I think teenager years,
beach, then it was definitelyculture, boring at the beach,
and now it's it has to be a mix.Yeah.

Isn't it? Yeah. The Netherlands or Germany?

I would say oh, god. My entire family will not
cringe. I think by now that Ilive here for 13 years, it it
became my home. My kids arehere. So it's the Netherlands.
Yeah.

Oh, oh, god. I just offended. Also,

I mean, the the the whole mentality of the people, I
mean, it's not so hierarchy.It's quite yeah. It's open. It's
it's, well, I leave it there.

That's a good, favorite technique.

Microscopy or what? What is it?

Favorite microscopy technique.

Ah, favorite microscopy. That's a tricky one.
I don't know. No.

I don't know.

I I mean, I've worked for so many years. I
won't say what was it? 8 yearsalso with, also to photon, and I
really like that. Pretty muchthe same amount with light
sheet, so and to on. This one isa

Here, it's good. I was guessing light sheet or 2
photon.

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, obviously, I like other
techniques as well, buteverything has its place, I
think.

Okay. Writing a grant application or writing a
paper for manuscript?

Mhmm. Grant application. Because it's more I
don't know. There you can be alittle bit speculative. It can
be a little bit, yeah, what youwish to do, and, yeah, that's
fun.

Baby color?

I like blue, and I like black, but that's not a
color, I think. And then,obviously, whatever sample you
have, you look at themicroscope, you look at, yeah.
Probably lots of people sayfluorescent colors. But I was
just supposed to say, I don't

think anyone has yet said Alexa Fluorescence,
germaneolide, or GAPI or Yeah.Something. Yeah. Don't think
anyone said

Then that that's that's something I thought are
just too generic, so I'm notsaying that, but then it would
be red. I mean, I like good red.Yeah.

Okay. So of that, we we talked about some
difficult times. What would yousay has been the best time in
your career to date?

Well, that's a difficult one. I would say in
every phase, there was a greattime. I think looking back, you
you see, you know, you zoom outand then you look at something
where you are, for example, yourPhDs, you feel like you're
struggling, and it's reallyhard. Now I see the great
aspects as well. And I would sayin every phase of my career, the

(57:28):
best times were when I waslearning something new, and I
was really integrated in a teamand doing team science.
And I I would obviously saywherever I did microscopy, but
that was everywhere, so the last15 years. Yeah. Okay. So that's

(57:48):
probably it.

Yeah. Yeah. We talked about starting a new lab.
This is exciting times.

Yes.

What's most scary? What are you thinking?
Oh, this is this what what areyou gonna what most daunting at
the moment?

It's it's, a mix. Obviously, it's a mix. I mean,
that's what I said when we werespeaking about this earlier.
It's something like, you arereally scared of, but when you
once you break over this hurdleor you break through this fear,
there is something exciting overthere. And what I what I'm
really excited about is thiswhole topic of, patient driven

(58:25):
cancer research being among thethese other researchers that
work on the same.
There's such a team spirit. Ilike that a lot. Scary is this,
yeah, I need funding, forexample. What I treated a few
days ago, another grant thatfell through. Yeah.
But I am not, I don't know. I'mnot scared. It's about I mean,

(58:50):
too too scared. You know? Imean, the scary part, I think,
was this, oh, shall I shall I,after 8 years of working here,
switch and almost, like, startover at my age.
Once I made this decision, a lotof the scary part was taken
away, I would say.

Yeah. Thank you for the support from your
universities to take you intothe position. So you're also
supported, and you have theirendorsement, which is a a very
strong point. How did you feelwhen the grant was unsuccessful?

Well, that is unfortunate. I mean, then you
think, too bad, I try again. Imean, it's it's never really not
who wants to hear that? But Ialways believe in this sounds
lame, but rejection isredirection. Because then I
reached out to my collaboratorsand so on, and they said, we
still believe in that idea.
I most certainly believe in thatidea, so let's go for it. Take

(59:44):
another call, write a new grant,and we will submit that soon,
and let's hope that this worksthen. It's all fine.

It is quite quite I think a few hours, you feel
pretty pretty rubbish for a fewhours. A bit disappointed, but
then certainly after a sleep,generally, those No.

Anna Schüth (01:00:06):
No. I I mean, I understand what you mean, and
that was maybe I felt like thismaybe in my PhD when I got,
like, certain criticism onsomething where I thought, oh, I
really like that. For example,you write your first article,
and then it gets better andbetter. But with this one, it
was maybe, I wanna say, I'm notgoing to lie, 5 minutes. And I

(01:00:27):
thought, oh, yeah.
But is is this whole thingputting it in perspective? And
that's why I say my the the, howdo you say, the joy of being
able to do this research ishigher than this, and I know
it's gonna work because Ibelieve in that. And it's the
same with when I was doing aspecific, development of a

(01:00:49):
microscope technique or when Iwas building the light sheet in
our lab. When when you whenpeople ask you, when is it
finished? Or what are youactually going to do there?
What on earth are you doing theentire lab and a day in the lab?
And as long as you believe thisis going to work, then this is
going to work, and it will. Youknow?

Peter O'Toole (01:01:09):
I wouldn't say second time around because
you've taken the criticismsgenerally. Those victims make it
better. So the second timearound, you realize the research
you're doing is more mature.It's more thought about. It's
more directed.
So hits the ground runningbetter than it would have been
in the first. So Yeah. Yeah. ButI take I take a few hours. I
can't do it in 5 minutes,generally.

(01:01:30):
Especially if I think it's avery good one. If it is if you
put a chance in your arm, somesome of you just feel more
passionate about than others.Yeah. And and you really want
you just feel as though it'sjust hit that note and it's just
right.

I know. I know. I know what you mean. And I think
when I this this one story Itold you after I was pregnant,
this interview, when I also gotthe no, I also thought, come on.
That took me also maybe a couplehours, but that well, maybe a
day or 2.
You know? But then you can'tdwell on it too long, and then
that's why I think, you know,back on the horse, you you I

(01:02:07):
made this choice myself, so Imight as well get on with it. So

I've noticed just noticed, we are we have just
gone the hour, and I don't knowwhere that time's gone. I've
gotta ask you one more question,though.

Yes.

If you could do any job for a day, to try
something different, whose jobor what type of job would you
like to try?

Yeah. I mean, as a child, I always wanted to be a
veterinarian, so maybe that'ssomething I would wanna do.
Although I don't know. Maybe. Ialso like, maybe working in a
museum.
Something completely different.Or something in the direction of
zoology. I mean, this is stillreally cool. I don't know.

(01:02:49):
Probably if I if I think aboutit more, there's or, I mean,
anything with sports is alsoreally fascinating.
You know, I stop here.

That's cool. Anna, thank you for your time. I
Yeah. I I wish we had longer,which was we could talk about
and touch on. But, Annie, you'vebeen a great guest.
And also for those listening andwatching, there is a mental
health special as well withKaydar and Beth, which should be
coming up just before thisepisode. If you haven't seen it
already, it's well worth a alisten too on that. And please

(01:03:23):
subscribe to the channels.Please go and look at
annashute.com, and have a lookat, the content that's on there
because it truly is inspiring.Anna, you are the person that is
truly inspiring because thatwebsite is yours and your
content.
Anna, I'm very honored, andthank you very much for talking
so frankly today.

Yeah. Thank you. The pleasure was mine. And,
yeah, I, hope everyone isenjoying this episode, and maybe
we can put in the little, Idon't know how you call it, show
notes or something, a few linksto organizations. And I can send
you an email that might bereally helpful for those who
seek help also, as well.
Yeah.

That's certainly possible. So go to the YouTube.
It will be on there, and we'llsee if we can get it on the
actual just the landing page aswell. So, Anna, thank you.

Thanks a lot. Thanks.

VX (01:04:11):
Thank you for listening to The Microscopists, a Bite Size
Bio podcast sponsored by ZeissMicroscopy. To view all audio
and video recordings from thisseries, please visit
bitesizebio.comforward slash thedash microscopists.

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