Ilaria Testa (Karolinska Institutet Science Park)

Episode Transcript
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VX (00:02):
Welcome to The Microscopists, a bite sized bio
podcast hosted by Peter O'Toole,sponsored microscopists

Peter O'Toole (00:14):
Today on the microscopists, I'm joined by
Ilaria Testa who tells us whyshe thinks delegation is a
fundamental skill for any seniorscientist.

Ilaria Testa (00:24):
I had a tendency to be very much on top of many
things and try to do things bymyself, which is not sustainable
in the long term, but is alsonot not good for your team
member because you have to givethem space to develop the wrong
person, wrong scientist.

She talks about growing from her personal and
professional struggles.

I need to sort of see what, like, you know, get
through the struggle, to touchthe documents, say, like, I'm
not probably real. But, to to tothen try to get a better version
of myself.

And why she thinks feedback on grant
applications good or bad iscritical.

The the problem is that in many grants you don't
receive feedback. And, I thinkthis is, this is a real pity
because it doesn't give you thepossibility to get better.

All in this episode of The Microstrophists.
Hi. Welcome to TheMicrostrophists. I'm Peter Atul
from the University of York. Andtoday, I'm joined by Laria Testa
from Stockholm.
Laria,

how are

you today?

Hello. I'm good. Hi. Hi, Pete. So the first thing
I have to

say is congratulations. You're a mom.

Yes. I'm a mom for the 2nd time.

And how long ago was this?

Yeah. 4 weeks ago.

4 weeks ago. Thank you so much for agreeing
to talk today. And how's itgoing?

Yeah. It's going well. It works. A lot of
sleepless night, but, somehowyou adapt to that. So

How old is your first?

A 2a half.

2a half. And and how are they finding it?

Yeah. That that's probably the most challenging
part. You know, she's excited,which always can come with also
some, you know, dangeroussituation because you want to
interact with the small one.But, yeah, so far so good. We

(02:34):
try to manage them.
You know?

And how are you finding the change of having 1
child, which is hard work, tohaving 2 children, which is a
lot more intense?

I I guess, you know, when they're that small I
mean, apart from the sleeplessnight, they they they they do
sleep a lot overall. So in away, it's quite easy to adapt
and and to find time also forthe other. It's it's also
important, of course, to shareresponsibility and and time with
your partner. I'm very lucky onthat sense. So, it's it's it's

(03:09):
you know, we try to juggle allall the things we all the time
we have, but that's that's howit's going.
Yeah.

What is your partner to?

He's also a scientist.

Okay. Yeah. Also Stockholm?

Also Stockholm is a he's a neuroscientist. Yeah.
So we were close by. He's a. I'mwith Cilac Labs.
So

Does he do any imaging?

Yes. Sometime. Yeah. No. He he he's more on the
molecular side, but use usemicroscope as a tool for in situ
sequencing and this kind ofthing.
So, think it's gonna be easy.

Yeah. That's not

what you're doing, these throughput.

I think it's one of the easy yeah. That's not
what you're doing, isthroughput.

No. At least not yet. They're not but, yeah.

And how much time are you gonna take off? Are you
taking any time off? I know yougot 2 children, or you or you
take are you taking some timeoff, and how long are you taking
off if you are?

So so what we did for we we would try to do the
same that we did for with thefirst one. So we tried to do
sort of 5050, like, a few days,1 and the other, so to share,
with him. I I never actuallyleft for a long period of time.
I think it's very hard with ourjob, so I don't plan to do it,
also this time, but sort ofdivide the week between, between

(04:38):
ourselves so that we can always,you know, check-in and do the
the important things.

Actually, it's a, I think, a good question. Do you
wish you had a job that youcould put aside, or, actually,
do you enjoy your job and,actually, you wanna keep that
engagement anyway?

No. That's the second one for sure. I mean, we
could. Right? I mean, the orderof the system that we have here,
you could just, you know, checkout and and and come back in a
year or even in a year and ahalf later, but, I would die.
It it would happen to me. Imean, I don't know. There are
people that can do can do it.For me, it's, like, so natural

(05:18):
and so important to keepdiscussing, you know, with
students, think about theproject. I can't just do it.
I can't just run away. You know?I would become insane.

So, Tito, actually, I'm not gonna call it
your job because it's not a job.I I'm sensing you don't see it
as a job. Is your work yourhobby and your sport?

Yeah. In a way. I mean, I I I I yeah. So I I
really enjoy what I do. I don'tfeel that I have to do it.
I mean, of course, there arealways side of your job that you
don't like like to do, and, Imean, administrative duties are
not my favorite. But but the oldscientific discussion, this is,

(06:04):
I think, a innate part of, Iwould say, my personality. So I
I I I I can I can, yes? In thatsense, this is really part of
who I am. So I I I love to doit, and and I would feel,
impaired without it.
But I I do love also doing otherthings. It's not that, you know,

(06:27):
I I need to do experiment dayand night.

So so what other hobbies do you have?

I mean, over the year, I think I explore many
things. I grew up in close byGenova, maybe is known for some
conference. Right? So it's a aseat like, a small town on the
sea and, close by Genova. Andthen, of course, by being close
to the sea, you, I I practice.
I enjoy a lot of water sport,like, you know, diving,

(06:57):
snorkeling, and, kayaking, andso on. But, you know, to follow
your scientific path, sometimesyou need to relocate and and
and, going north and north, Ikind of shift my, enthusiasm
from enthusiasm from water to tosnow. So lately, we practiced a

(07:19):
lot of, cross country skiing.

And you actually sent a picture of you cross
skiing, I presume.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. There it is. Yeah. That was one
of the latest hobbies that thatwe enjoy doing.
And it's fantastic because, youknow, you are outdoor, and you
can explore nice landscapecovered with snow, as you can
see. You keep your sun warmbecause you need to do a lot of

(07:46):
work out. So it's

So all your all your hobbies are quite physical.
So how important is fitness toyou?

You? I think it's good for your mind. It's good
to, zoom out and, and and, relaxand see things in a different
way. So for me, like, beingoutdoor is really, really
important.

So forget about you said you you you started in
Genoa and then gradually movednorth. So your math you did a
degree, your masters. What waswhat subject was that, and was
that in Genoa?

It was in Genoa. It was physics. So yeah. So it
was, I mean, general physics andthen theoretical physics, the
last 2 years. That was, I mean,was was in high in Genova.
I mean, a lot of people wereworking also at CERN. So so

(08:42):
there was also a lot of nuclearphysics and so on. And that was
actually like, theoreticalphysics was the the reason why I
I I studied physics, at thebeginning. So when I was in high
school, I remember I had thisvery exciting math professor,
Li, Livia, and and she wasalways talking. I mean, she

(09:05):
couldn't teach quantummechanics, of course, but she
was always talking about that,like this mysterious world,
governed by rules so differentfrom classic physics.
And, like, all this mysteryreally excite me because, I
said, like, how is it possiblethat a world like that exist?
And, so I remember that we like,a big part of my motivation. Of

(09:27):
course, then I always like andenjoy math and physics. Right?
So it was topic that were comingkind of natural to me.
And and and that's why I moved,so I started physics. Yeah. I
was actually a very badexperimentalist. I was I was so
much better in in in theory.

So you said that it came natural to you. The math
and physics came natural to you.Were your parents mathematicians
or physicists?

No. Not at all. Not at all. No. I didn't I
didn't even actually knew whatresearch was at the time.
In fact, I I mean, I didn't Ididn't want to be a researcher.
I didn't know what was it. Imean, I of course, you know
about scientists, but, I Ididn't know about the actual job
of a researcher. I I wanted tobe a medical doctor at that
time. That's what I, you know, Iwas more intuitive to

(10:15):
understand.

So what did your parents do? What were they?

Oh, also, my my my mom was a teacher, elementary
school teacher, and and, and mydad has a small shop. Yes.

Okay. So so it was very different to go but
what did they think about yougoing to study physics? That's
obviously very different.

They love it. So they they always look up, you
know, to knowledge. And and theone thing they, they they said,
I mean, you know, if you if youstudy physics, you know, that
sound sound really smart, butalso it seems that open up a lot
of opportunities, for, you know,many potential jobs, and and

(10:56):
they were right. So but theynever, you know, they never
forced me to do anything likethat. Follow what you like.
I mean, at the end, you end upsomehow doing that well. So if
if you feel like doing physics,go for it.

So you said your mom was a elementary teacher. If
you take do was she did she everteach you? Were you ever at the
same school?

No. No. No.

No. You never had that awkwardness?

No. No. That that was good.

So we've started a bit earlier than usually I'd
ask this question, but can youremember the very first job that
you wanted to do probably whenyou were still in elementary
school, way back?

Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to be a doctor. I wanted
to be a medical doctor. I I Idon't know.
I guess, probably from on onehand, I thought it was so cool
to help people, and, I alwaysheard the story of doctors
traveling to Africa and, youknow, doing like, helping people
in need. And I found that, like,with rural tools, and I thought

(11:58):
that that would be so, so cool.And on the other hand, I guess I
was, you know, always interestedin knowing how things in our in
our body work. There were Iremember animation that I were
looking looking at them as a kidthat were very interesting. And,
maybe the second part is whatthen pushed me to biophysics

(12:19):
later on or to life science.
But yeah.

So so why did you give up on the medical side?

Because I discovered physics and math. And
it was

It was the passion of physics that took
over, and that's why

Yeah. Yeah. And and I really like solving
problem. And I'm so glad I'm soglad I did it because, you know,
I I think I'm much better in, inabstract thinking or deriving
concept of first principlerather than memorizing terms of
condition, which I think isimportant for for a doctor. I

(12:58):
mean, big respect for those whocan, but this is not my thing.

No. It's quite interesting, isn't it? I know
I've said I've said this onprevious record in previous
interviews that doctors, Greg,they actually ultimately, they
use the tools that you invent todiagnose, and they use the drugs
that we invent to prescribe.They just have to look at the
patient, use our tools todiagnose, and prescribe what
we're doing. Who's most who'smore influential?

(13:27):
Who's more important?

See, you're. I'm biased. So

So when you went into Genoa, did I am I right
that you went into Albie's lab,Alberto Dasperos?

Yeah. Yeah.

So is that your first microscopy?

Yes. He was actually also teaching the
microscopy course. So I kind ofarrived there the last moment. I
said, oh, can I join thiscourse? I didn't subscribe.
Subscribe. He was like, okay.You know, I'll be he's always
find a way. So he, soeventually, I could, I I started
following this course was onmicroscopy metals and
biophysics, so different type ofmicroscopy. And, I remember

(14:14):
still now that one of the taskwas actually looking at at
single molecule single Rodaminemolecule on the cover glass.
I mean, he wanted to do thatwith 2 photon, which was very
hard, but, you know, we werecharacterizing the sample with
the, wide film microscopy. Andthen I see this tiny spot, and
and and and I think, like, thisis a molecule. So this is a

(14:36):
single molecule. You know? Andit just blow my mind.
It as physicists, like, you'reused to study that in a vertical
way, like states and diagram,and then and then you look at
that, and it's popping up. I Ithought that that was, you know,
fantastic way to to visualizedata or a system. Like yeah.

So after Albie, who who's a pretty big name what
what was Albie like to work for?

Albi, Albi, you know, is really excited about
science. So working with him wasreally fun. He he create this
group of very young scientists.We're all PhD students. Most of
the time, you know, I was in thelab.
So we he really, like, focused alot on building teamwork. And

(15:31):
and the motivation and approachto science, I mean, that's, what
impacted me, a lot at that time.Like, you know, there is this
open question. Let's solve it.Like, you know, this enthusiasm,
on problem solving.
Yes.

That's really cool to hear. So Octavalby,
who's a pretty big name, youthen went to Max Planck?

Yeah. Yeah. With this

Yes. Declan HellsLab?

I went to Stefan. Yes. Yes. Hello, Melissa. This
is this is quite

you've got a buck have you got a bucket list of
people who you wanna work andnow now you've got your own
group collaborate with? Is thisa bucket list? I've done Alby.
I've done Stefan. Who who next?

No. Not really. It was always like a so, yeah, how
do you say, like, that, like,happened, I would say, not by
chance, but almost. Right? Soso, as I said, like, I met Albie
because at the very last momentand the very last time to, you
know, be able to subscribe forthis course, And then and then a

(16:35):
lot of things since thendeveloped.
And then and then for Stefan, Imean, it was actually Albie that
invited him, to the ItalianBiophysical Society sort of a
conference. And, you know, atthe time, I was like, oh, this
guy might win the Nobel Prize atsome point, and he was
presenting one of the few data,the first data on, 3 d stat. And

(16:56):
so I remember approachapproaching him, like, after the
talk and, like, this big nameand asking, you know, a few
questions. Like, how do youchoose the stat wavelength and
things like that. And and he wasso nice.
He was like I was a tinystudent. I was even not
graduated yet. Like, I didn'tget my master degree yet. And he
would, you know, stop and sitthere and and, like, try to
explain me how the patternlooked like and how how they do

(17:20):
experimentally to to choose theright wavelength. So I thought
it was, like, nice to talk tohim.
And, I remember at that timesaying, you know, it would be,
like, a dream to join your labor things like that, and and
eventually, he made that happen.So in fact, first, I I joined
his lab as an exchange studentfor for a short time, and then

(17:41):
and then I went back as apostdoc. Yeah.

Tip, actually, to sort of get that time in the
lab. And then, I guess, they getto look at you as well and
think, oh, yeah. We wanna keep.We wanna get back. And so
generate opportunities throughthat route as well.
Yeah. You now got your owngroup. How difficult you've now
got your own group. Howdifficult was it stepping out

(18:07):
from Stefan's lab into your ownlab? How daunting was it?

Oh, I think, you know, like, mainly transition,
are exciting, and comes with alot of, motivation and and and,
will. But it's also difficultbecause, you change you know,

(18:31):
you you go in a new country.It's a new system that I didn't
know before, And, it's also newnew responsibilities, as I say,
you know, administrative duties,but also you're responsible for
the people. And and and and sothere is a lot of that. There is
a lot of time management anddelegation to learn, and and and

(18:55):
this is certainly not easy.
So at the beginning, I Iremember feeling excited, but
also kind of alone in a way inyour, in your decision, in in
your learning, curve. But, yeah,eventually, I'm happy that it
went that way because if you geta lot of guidance, it also

(19:17):
affect your your independence oror your way of thinking. And
then, you know, being there onyour own, it really, like, help
you build the things that youwant to build, create and live
with the value you you wannahave. And, and that was really
important to me, like, as agrowth also.

Have you again, have you made any mistakes? Do
you look back and think, oh,that really wasn't me. I I
shouldn't have done it that way.I should've changed it, and you
change and reflect, or has itbeen super smooth?

No. Of course. You always make mistake. Right? And
and and and, I think at least tome, the point is not not making
mistake, but, like, to rethinkor or after that and get the
chance to, you know, make thingsthen right.
But but definitely I mean,especially at the beginning
there, I had the tendency to be,very much on top of many things

(20:12):
and try to do things by myself,which is not sustainable in the
long term, but it's also not notgood for your team member
because you have to give themspace to develop their own
person, their own scientist. Soso this probably, like, yeah,
should have been done better.But yes. Now, anyway, as I said,

(20:35):
having probably, like, familyand other services, it help also
with delegation. And, how longdid it

take to learn the art of delegation and actually
passing on responsibility andnot micromanaging those projects
and not being too involved togive people their space. How
long do you think it took todevelop those skills? It's not
easy.

I think I think maybe a year or 2. I think in
the moment that I got to knowthe team so, like, better than
than, you know, they we get toknow each other and and having
also, you know, students thathave learned the first sort of
in needed skills, and they startto grow also themselves. So you

(21:18):
start trusting them more. So Iwould say a year or 2 when

Okay. That that's pretty fast, which is
impressive. Do you getfrustrated, annoyed, angry,
disappointed if when youdelegate it, so it was someone's
taken out and they do it wrong.

It it happened at the beginning, right, in the
learning phase. But then butthen, again, you start trusting
and you and you you you youchallenge yourself a little bit,
and then you also start seeingthat things can be done in a
different way. And there issometimes even if it takes

(21:57):
longer time has other benefit,or it can bring in new way of
thinking of, the the problem oreven, like, solving some
technical details. I I mean,sometimes you feel frustrated
when you know it's going to adead end and you want to have
for it, but it's also okay ifthat doesn't take that long time

(22:19):
to let that happen, and that, Ialready discussed. But
disappointed, I mean, veryrarely with the person.
I think more maybe if, I seethat that would cause the lack
of motivation overall because,you know, then there would be a
delay in getting a positiveresult and things like that. And

(22:40):
I think this is always, a littlefrustrating. But

I think it's important people make mistakes.
Yeah. Yeah. I think you have tolearn. So you send me a picture
of your lab.
While I'm talking about yourlab.

Yeah. You know, I've

only just looked it's huge. How many people have
you got in your lab?

Yeah. So so we've looked away within 10 15. I
think that was a time wherethere were a few of the first
generation of which it is stillbeing in the lab as positive for
for some times and the new onecoming. So we are 2 or 3 less
now, but, I mean, more or less.

It's still really large. How quickly did that
build up to that number of

team? Not that fast. Or at least I remember,
like, in the 1st 2, 3 years, wewere, like, you know, between
24. And, so it took it took sometimes, but then, eventually,
like, it it it it it increased.And I would say in the last

(23:46):
years that, you know, we passedthe number 10.
But we have been, you know,gradual. Like, in in I remember
the first two, 4 years, we were,like, between 2 5, and then,
eventually, it it it increased.But I I always try to not have
it all in once. Even ifsometimes, you know, you have to

(24:07):
because you get this grant, butbut but I kind of manage always
to get only few new person. Onlything couple, but always a few
new person at the time.

How do you actually so actually, I have 2
things. Firstly, for thelistener or viewer, is this
thing? How long have you been atStockholm? How long have you
been in your position?

Almost 10 years. I mean, I started, 2015.

Okay. So so it's not that long. Not really. And
you and your second child,you've been there for 9 years,
you've grown a team up to 15.That's quite a stellar
successful path, isn't it?

I do like it. It's it's

As as everyone says, you have to create your
own luck. So how how many Butbut we know you do stuff out of
work as well, so it's not allwork. How do you is it

I used to.

Oh, no. Come on. You said you're into Noah. You
were a stupid snorke diving. Youwere kayaking.
You got up. You're

Yeah. Before babies. Right? Before babies.
And then no.
It's it's it's fun.

So how how much how difficult have you found it
getting funds? You must have hadgrants rejected. Please have had
a grant rejected.

That that's the majority. Right?

Okay. That'll be good for people to listen.
Because you're thinking, oh,yes. But it's just with your
success after success aftersuccess. So what would you say
your success rate is?

Oh, maybe 30%.

That's pretty good. Well, excellent. How so
when you what is the feelingwhen you got your grand success?
What is the initial feeling?

This. It's like yeah.

Just a big smile.

Just a big smile. Right? It's it's a,

How long did it last? But you're always smiling.
But how long does that from thegrand smile, how long does that
last?

I mean, as long as the grand is last. Oh,

wow. I wish I could be more like you. I I tell
you, as soon as I've got thegrants, I think within probably
within an hour or 2, my head isturned into, now I've got to
fund the invite member of staff.We've got to make deliver this,
They're head straight onto theserious stuff. And, yeah, maybe
don't take enough time tocelebrate the wins.

(26:40):
What is okay. And now maybeeveryone needs to watch this one
because you saw the smile whenyou're successful. What's your
immediate reaction when thegrant is unsuccessful?

Watch some movie and eat some junk food.

And how long does that last? Not when we
obviously. I mean,

you know, at the beginning, it could last for a
while, but then I decided thatshouldn't deserve more than a
really, really angry evening.Because if you I don't I know I
felt I can easily get stuckthinking, ever thinking, what I
could have done right, and andand and I think it's always good

(27:27):
to, you know, improve yourself.And I think that's important,
but I didn't want that to becomelike a a reason or bad mood.
It's not sustainable in sciencebecause you're gonna get
rejected in many, many ways. So,at at least for grants, I mean,
it's yeah.

(27:49):
Yeah. I still yeah.

I think I'm gonna ask this of anyone, actually.
When the grant is unsuccessful,do you have a retrospectively
look back and go, yeah. Thereviewers are right. The panel
was right.

Yeah. Of course. Especially at the beginning,
like, I I was not I am I thinkyou're used so much to talk with
people in your own field,especially as a postdoc, and you
get so deep into something that,I was paying very little
attention on on thecommunication. I mean, I was
thinking that everyone wouldunderstand what I'm saying, but,

(28:26):
I was I was talking maybe tootechnical or, so I was not a
very good communicator. And nowunderstanding a bit better,
like, how grant review work, Imean, you need to be able to to
talk at least to the otherscientists within the life
science and be understood.
So so it it it need to beimproved. And, the the problem

(28:50):
is that in many grants, youdon't receive feedback. And, I
think this is, this is a realpity because it doesn't give you
the possibility to get better.But eventually, you know, when
you write something and getrejected, you start discussing
with peers. So you if you want,if you if you call for that,
you've kind of received feedbackfrom maybe not the review panel
or someone else, and that wasreally helpful to then improve

(29:12):
the writing.

Again, new question. Gosh. This is good,
isn't it? What do you prefer?Writing a grant application or
writing up a results manuscript?

Results? Of course.

The results. The results.

I mean, there is I know. Like, people hate writing
grad, but I also think that ifyou don't have to stress
yourself of, like, too many,there is some good in it because
it make you think about yournext move, like, what you wanna
do it, and it's really the timethat you sit down and you
carefully think about everydetails of a potential future
project. So these parts, Iactually enjoy of writing GRAM.

(29:53):
But, writing down results isalso so nice because it's just
the first step. Right?
So you're you're, like, in in inbrainstorming or in, in
processing the result, and andand this is also in a way, a
moment of, you know, that thatthat that is important for also

(30:17):
the next step sort of, theprocessing of a certain result,
the self reflection. It helpyou, understand them even
deeply, and and go deeper anddeeper and then and then plan
better the next the nextproject.

Yeah. I I tell you, it's it's it's I've never
thought about the the differencebetween the two. And actually, I
think I think I'll be theopposite. I think I'll be
writing I think the grantapplication because that's when
you get to describe your vision.The idea, the concept for the
first time and actually reallydistill it down into something,
as you say, that that you cancommunicate with others in a
sensible way instead of justhaving the idea in your head.

(30:58):
And maybe the results actually,we've got the results. It's
quite good whether post doc orone of the tech team can write
it up because I'm moving onalready. And then results are
done

Yeah. Yeah. That's true. I mean, I'm probably
thinking more about the the thediscussion of how to that comes
after the results. So in themoment that you think more and
more about the result, you'realso thinking like, okay.
What is left? What is, that wecan do better, like, maybe in
the next in the next project.Right? And then that could also
be connected with the futurevision. But yeah.

So quick final questions. Are you an early bird
or night owl?

Night owl. I used to be.

I suppose that's usually. Right now, it's gonna
be everything. But okay. PC orMac?

You see in the lab, Mac in the office.

McDonald's or Burger King?

Mac's, the Swedish version.

Okay. What's your favorite? What's your go to at
McDonald's then?

Oh, actually, I don't. I don't I don't do it.
But

k. Coffee or tea?

Coffee espresso only.

So have you got one? I bet you had one just
before this.

Before. Yes.

You would. Chocolate or

cheese? Cheese. Oh, okay.

Oh, okay. So beer or wine?

Wine. I'm so stereotypical Italian. I'm
sorry.

What is it?

It's not wine.

Metal white. Metal white wine.

Red. Red.

Again Sorry. When she said espresso, cheese, white
it was always going down thatline of red, wasn't it? What's
your favorite food? Oh,

well, I do love a lot of things. I love something
named Zigini. I probably didn'tI don't know if you heard yet,
but, you know, for some familyreason, I I I I have a lot of
connection with Eritrea. So it'sa Eritrean food in the corn of
Africa, and and is is a sort oflike this overcook meat with

(33:21):
some spice on it, and, you eatwith the spongy bread, and it's
it's it's really tasty.

That actually sounds quite good. I'll go with
that. What what is your leastfavorite food? Do you have
anything you really, really notfuss for eating at all?

I said, it's, I shouldn't say it loud, but my
mother-in-law might listen tothat. But it's sauerkraut, so I
don't like sauerkraut. And beingin Germany, it's not easy to
avoid them, but I don't I don'treally like it.

And so when you go to your indoors, do they
always give you sauerkraut, ordo they know you don't like it?

I mean, initially, they didn't know, so I always
got them. And, obviously, mypartner was always laughing that
that's happening. But now nowthey know. So it's it's a joke
now. It's one

of the best answers I think we've had. And,
actually, you sent me anotherpicture, which is, of cake.

Oh, but

Oh, what so describe what this cake is
besides I I have no idea whatthis cake is besides saying
super resolved and looking a bitcellular.

Yeah. So I haven't baked it yet. I haven't baked it
myself. So this is, yeah, truefact. So so my lab did, and I
think I think Giovanna did somelab member.
And then and then, she actuallywon even a prize for that
because it was in our institute.There was, like, a contest,
like, at the end of the year andso on. So so, it's it's a cake

(34:53):
with chocolate. There areberries handpicked here in
Sweden. And, and there is aneuron that, obviously, we love
to imagine our, in my in ourlab.
And there is a lens because wewant to see these tiny details
in, in the neuronal compartmentthat are highlighted in white.

Wow. I'm running a faster lens. What's your
favorite cake?

My favorite cake? I'm not a big dessert person,
but, of course, I love tiramisu.

You're not just Italian. You you said you got
your children somewhere in everytray as well. So it's not just
you're obviously completelyItalianized Don't that

Not far. You know? TV or book? I would yeah. TV.
Okay. Like movies.

Mhmm. Any trash TV that you like watching?
Anything really rubbish just tochill out to?

Yeah.

What's the funny language? Or I I should I say
this or not? My love's gonnahear this.

Yeah. Exactly. I mean no. I mean, arrested
development is really fun.Sometimes I watch, but it was
really trash.

It's good to have trash TV. Star Trek or Star
Wars?

Star Wars.

Favorite film?

Octamenzo from Fellini. And it's it's it's not
a light movie, but it's it'sfantastic. It's it's about it's
about a filmmaker that has a asa block, like a filmmaker block
or director block. How is itcalled? So it's a it's a movie
about about that, about himself.

(36:50):
But what I find it funny thatit's a movie about the film that
we you're you're watching, like,it's it's the concept. The
director describing himself andthe whole his struggles in
making the movie while, whendoing that. So it's you know,
there are a lot of connectionsof the creative process and and

(37:12):
what we struggle in science,sometimes in our project, all
the ups and down.

Yep. And favorite Christmas film?

Christmas film? Yeah.

I look forward to answering this question. If I
ever get the honor in 10 yearstime again when your children
are growing up and what yourfavorite Christmas film is at
that point?

I don't know the English name. I used to watch
this a lot of time. I mean, allthey are watching. But, yes,
about ferry, like, yeah. Okay.
Yeah. Anyway

When you go on holiday, are you someone who
likes to lay out on the beach,or would you like to go and
experience culture?

Both. I use a combination of both. I mean, I
don't like to just sit down onthe beach, but to do something
with the sea, but, I love to goin place with with water and,
and the ocean. But, typically,there are also sightseeing to do
around. I mean, in Europe, weare very lucky that you can find
both.
So I guess

Okay. Italy or Germany?

Italy for vacation. Germany. Science.

Okay. Germany or Sweden?

Ouch. This is difficult. Like yeah.

Go on. You gotta choose 1.

Yeah. Man. Well, I I can't yeah. I don't know.
Sweden, I guess.
That's where we are. So

And Sweden or Italy?

Again, like, Italy for vacation and Sweden for
science.

Gosh. You gotta keep all your passports. You've
been very politically good atthat. I was hoping you'd go for
one way and go go down adifferent. And so other other
questions.
Kimberly, so you said you likeyour exercise. You sent another
picture which actually view onyour your bike, so a road bike.
So is this your transport towork?

Yes. Yes. Yes. It's a 20 minutes bike ride. And
then you can you know, this isthe the path, so you it's it's
there is a part that you'regoing along the sea, and then
there is the forest.
So it's nice to start the daythis way.

So you're selling you're selling Sweden really
nicely. It's sounding reallyquite cool on the back of it.
And so

That that was June. That was June. Was then we
talked again January.

Well, do you not do you not just for us, do you
not just skiing?

Of course.

Yeah. Get get your skis back out at that
point. So we talked about, TV,film. We talked about trash TV.
You also sent me some pictures.
Now I've gotta work out whichone. And you sent me a picture
from your favorite artist. Sowhat is the what is the who is
your favorite artist, and whatsort of picture is it?

Yeah. So so this is, this is Magritte. So,
Belgian painter. Right? And, andwhat I like what I like of his
painting that he always use thereal object and, and try to, you
know, question the boundariesbetween what is real and what,
what is a representation.

(40:37):
But but this especially thispainting, I think it's, it
relate to all of us,microscopists, because, you
know, you see you see the paintof a landscape that is supposed
to be real. Right? But thenthere is this fine line. And
isn't it what a microscope does?Right?

(40:57):
We we we use this instrument toto to look at a sample and to
find some truth in the sample,like cells or biological process
or but this is always a sort ofrepresentation or partial
representation of a realitybecause we choose fluorescence
eventually as a contrast method.We have a certain point spread

(41:17):
function. You know, the blackbox. Right? And and I always
like to show this picture atspecial ed workshop, with
students because this is like,most of the time, what we
actually do, we or which what weshould be doing is reflecting a
lot on, like, what is this fineline?
What is our instrument? Ourinstrument? What is this fine
line? What is therepresentation? What is missing?

(41:40):
And and and and this is soimportant to reflect because
it's kind of fueling, like, thenext idea. Like, what is missing
to have another representationthat eventually, at some point,
will allow us to pose, you know,better question or other
question or new questions.

And I I presume you use this in your lectures.

Yeah. Yeah. I do. I do. At sort of a final point,
like, always reflect what is theblack box.
Right? What is the fine line inthis case there? What what are
you actually measuring?

And what do you thought? Because obviously, this
picture, for those who arelistening, is a picture. You've
got an archway with a sea behindit, then the sea sort of extends
to the left. If you lookclosely, it's actually an easel
and the painting extends beyondwhere the window frame is. So
you're seeing beyond the windowas well as what's in the window.
Have you ever thought abouttaking just just copying out the
picture itself and then editingit to look like something

(42:35):
slightly different to show thatwhat you can sometimes see in a
microscope isn't trulyreflective of what's actually
there.

Oh, that's a very good idea. Like, to show, you
know, the a cell recorded withdifferent observable contrast.
That that could be a good idea.Yeah.

Just just because it that that will then spit. I I
just and they spit it on itshead a bit and then for the oh,
yeah. But it's the same picture.It's just because of the
contrast, we're sending counselresolution. You've lost detail
or you gained detail or whateverelse where you stretch the
contrast or you've donesomething completely wrong if
you manipulated the image.
So I I I really like it. That'sreally cool. You sent me another

(43:15):
picture, which say so thispicture definitely isn't like
the previous picture. Can forpeople listening, what is this
picture of and what is it? And Ithink this is the picture in
your background as well.

It is. But it's so embarrassing to see that just
after a real paint, like, doneby a real painter. Right? And
now comes myself trying to paintand and and yes. So so this is
one of my other, let's say, 2 dwork.
But in this case, not notthrough the eye of a microscope,

(43:50):
but but just with my, like,painted with watercolor. And,
yeah, it represent a fewinstrument that are sort of
personalized. So they have lags,and, and they produce something
like bubble. And, I mean, I wasjust reflecting on that that I

(44:12):
mean, at the end, it's stillthere there is some connection
with science. There is.
That is or what we do. That issort of catching the moment or,
like, the study of dynamics. Soin a way, I just saw that that
they give this idea of afleeting, or something fleeting,
like, you know, somethinghappening, and that just caught

(44:34):
in a moment. And in a way, it'swhat we want to do with our
methodology, like, look atdynamics and and and catch
biomolecule in action. So

I I think it's I need to a it's an excellent
picture. And I know before westarted recording, Jason, who's
actually in the background doingthe recording for this, noticed
it on the wall behind andimmediately asked about the
picture because he was drawn toit. He was impressed by it. So I
don't think Jason knew it wasyour picture at that point. So
Jason's probably now in thebackground thinking, oh my
goodness.
Mhmm. So so it's an amazinglygood picture.

I'm doing my great the picture in the picture.

So thinking of, art and pictures, this obviously
now oh, since this makes my headlook like it's electric. You
send me an image, which is whichis now a proper scientific
image. So I presume maybe aresult image in this case then.

Yeah. Yeah. So so it's an image of an neuron and
recorded it with, I think, 3, 4channels. It is a study image,
but this, sort of, zoom out soyou don't see many details. But,
I choose that because, you know,we have also this, we are

(45:47):
fascinated by by neurons, butand so we image lots of them.
And, especially this picturealways remind me about how
fascinating they are as a cell,like, with all these branches
and polarized morphology. And,but also challenging because,
you know, they're extendedcells, but they also have all
these teeny tiny needles. And,it's it's, that pose a lot of

(46:11):
challenges for microscopistsbecause, you know, if you when
you go for throughput, sometimesyou compromise speed or
resolution, and that's, can be aproblem. So that's a big
motivation or, like, for us todevelop better tools that can do
both, right, provide overviewcell to cell interaction and
then dig deep into a detailsspecific compartment and then

(46:33):
study how how protein areorganized in this in this very
packed environment.

And here's a really nice connection between
you and your husband as well. Itis your work, meeting his work
to a degree.

That's true. Yeah.

The way he's currently actually thought about
that part of it.

We a bit. I mean, I feel that he want to make
like, his his his goal is makeall our as microscopy sort of
jobless because he want to dothings molecularly, right, to
study spatial information withmolecular tricks. So I'm not
sure.

That that that can only go so far. Yeah. You
still need to see you need stillneed that. You still need to see
to to conceptualize it. It helpsAnd and it.
Say the spatial side, you needto know the provenance, you need
to go back to your originalpicture that you put in. So
important to see the big pictureas well as that tiny detail.

Exactly. Exactly.

You got plenty of put downs for non microscopists.
Good. Sure. Have you everworried about the work life
balance, and have you touched onit earlier?

Not really. I mean, I I know it sound weird,
but not really. I mean, as Isaid so, I used to work crazy
hour. I used to be extremelyfree and flexible in in in the
timing, but I wanted to. I neverfelt that I had to.
And I think your research in away, it allow you to have this
freedom. And and, definitely, Imean, I work probably more than

(48:17):
I I should have, but, it neverfailed as an obligation. And
that's, I think, what wasimportant to me that I never
felt trapped in the you have tobe there this time and and so
on. And and of course, now withwith the family, you question
that more. And, I do believethat I'm lucky to be in Sweden

(48:39):
where there is a lot ofunderstanding, versus family.
From faculty, as a mindset, it'scompletely normal for, you know,
both parents to take, care ofkids. So maybe that also is the
a bit, the whole process. Butmaybe

Maybe that's a generational change as well
where that's become far moreaccepted and maybe expected in
places as well. Yeah. Care andyour child care, which is, I
think, a positive, as we goforward and to have that sort of
shared responsibility with you.Do you think working hard,
enjoying your job will inspireyour own children?

I hope so. I hope so. I mean, we'll see. I'm just
looking forward that for them toreach an age where they can come
to the lab and, you know,visualize things through a
microscope,

if

they're a bit too young.

Are you slightly worried that they might instead
of having your math, physics,innate ability, that they've
picked up your art ability andgo into drawing pictures instead
of It's it's

it's up to them. As long as they do what they
like, I'm sure they will get themotivation to do it good. So I
don't at least, I don't want Imean, they don't have necessary
to follow my

of inspiring them. Who have been your
inspirations and motivations?Who's inspired you, and who's
motivated you?

I think I think I was quite likely to be
motivated, like, by, you know,my family and and and brothers
and and and a father and mother,like oh, I mean, and friends. I
all the time, like you know? Andthen and then and then there has

(50:33):
been role models, but I wouldn'tpinpoint a single person, rather
certain characteristic in manyin many person that I I've been
the luck to work with. I've as Isaid, I mean, I I mentioned
before, my math professor, shewas really fun and managed to be
really tough, but at the sametime to use humor a lot. And

(50:56):
that's something that inspiremotivate me also in my, sort of
style of supervision.
And and and then, of course,Albert enthusiasm, Stefan, you
know, resilience and, like, givereally going deep into, the
details and and breaking thingsin principles and, so that that

(51:22):
were all really inspiring to me.

I I I usually ask what has been the most
challenging difficult time, whathas been the most fun time. I've
got a feeling it's just gonna befun all the time. But have you
had the most challenging time ofyour career? What was if if you
if there was a period of 3months, 6 months, or the year
that you think I just I wouldn'twant to repeat that period
again. Is there any period thatyou wouldn't want to repeat?

You know, I think it's in intrinsic in, I guess,
the life of most scientists tohave these ups and down, right,
and to have this struggle. Idon't know if I wouldn't pick
that back because I think thatalways I kind of needed the
struggle to give the best ofmyself after all. I mean, I I
learned so much about that. So Ias as as personality, I need the

(52:11):
to sort of see what like, youknow, to get through the
struggle, to touch the boss Iwould say, like, but not
probably real. But, to to tothen try to get a better version
of myself.
And and, you know, looking back,I think maybe all this
transition moment that wementioned before were difficult

(52:32):
because, moving from Italy toGermany, on one hand, you have
to create the old kind of newfriendship and then a new system
and then Germany to Sweden.Probably that was the most
recent so that that that I Istill remember the beginning was
really not easy. How

did you find the besides the work and the the
different admin, the differentway of working between the the
permitting it to Germany,Germany to Sweden, what about
just the the social culturearound it? How did you find
those moves? You know, thelifestyle, the changes, the
expectations. How how was that?

As I said, in a way, like, exciting, but on the
other hand, yeah, challenging. Imean, I I wouldn't say, like,
they they were more related tomaybe cultural cues or things
like that. And and especiallyfrom Germany to Sweden, I felt
that more for some reason fromItaly to Germany, there was not,

(53:29):
a big issues. Probably because,you know, the German way is very
direct, so it's very easy tounderstand what if people are
happy or unhappy with you. So inbut but for Sweden, it was
really different.
It was also the position wasdifferent. Right? So,
understanding, you know, incomedies, in the way you are
expressing yourself, it's it'sit's well received or not. It's

(53:50):
extremely difficult. Plus, Iremember but, again, it's a
little bit connected to hardputting a lot of effort in I I
have a very cross, like,nationality group and and merge
in different cultures.
Sometimes it's, not that easy,especially, you know, like, I

(54:11):
just remember this fun moment.Like, in in Sweden, for example,
it's it's it's it's very muchappreciated silent. I mean, you
need to have in conversation,silent pose because that's,
like, kind of needed, for selfreflection and to come up with
some you know, to process whathas been said. While as Italian

(54:32):
or in Italy, you tend to nothave pause in a conversation
because that is when peopledon't feel comfortable. And so
you try to fill up constantlythis this pose because, you
don't want to make the personuncomfortable, so you you want
to help.
And and I think this, you know,will could be perceived

(54:52):
overwhelming, at the beginning.So you I both also in group
meeting, I had to be a sort oftraffic light and say, okay.
Okay. Let's think about that fora moment in silence.

Yeah. I think even for the Brits, that would
be quite difficult to putsilence into the conversation.
But

but it helps. I mean, it's, it yeah. So Do

Do you have any regrets at all? You the answer
is gonna be no. I know this. Butdo you have any regrets in your
career so far?

I used to have a little bit of regret to not have
been earlier in in the states,for example, to do science. I
kind of now work on that becauseI had the opportunity to go in a
sabbatical and spend, a fewmonths there. But for me, it was
always like this big curiosity,like, how how it is there, how

(55:55):
how it is to do science, andsome of them institution over
there. But, otherwise, yeah, notreally. No.

Yep. That leads quite nicely on if you could
work anywhere in the world,where would you choose to work?

I'm very happy where I am. Yeah. Okay. It's
very

it's very easy. For a year, if you could take
your lab and put it somewherefor a year, where would you take
the lab then?

I don't know. I think I mean, again, I think
Europe is a fantastic place todo science. I you know, working
a lot with fluorescence, I hadbig respect for Japan, and I
never been there. So that Ithink could be really fun to
explore for some times, but Ican't I can't really say, oh, I

(56:48):
would like to move all the labthere and leave there forever. I
mean, that's maybe a bit much.
I don't know. I don't know.

Isn't Global Bi Imaging having their meeting in
Japan next year? There you go.

Oh, good. Okay.

So what's talking to which? What's your favorite
conference?

Conference? Oh, I like all of them. I you know,
historically, as I said, like,FOM was always, was my first
conference. I know thecommunity, and it felt like
always felt like family to gothere. And

was born?

2004 in, I think 2004. Was it in Jena? Yeah. And

It was 2 when was Genoa?

Then was the one before.

2003? Yes.

But then I was, not yet. I was still studying.
So I went to, I think, a fewlecture, but it was still, yeah,
I was not into the field yet. Iwas, I think doing my bachelor.

Yeah. I think my first big, big conference was
was from Ingenoa. That's thatwas Alby. Put the connection
back to Alby. That was Alby'sgig, obviously.
We're nearly up to time if youcould do any job for a day so
not not another laugh. If youcould do any job for a day or a
week to see what it's like to bethat type of person or that type

(58:18):
of role, what would you go for?

I want to be a rock star.

That's a good answer. What is your favorite
music? What is your music genre?

Oh, I like, you know, I like I like David Bowie.
Sorry? David Bowie?

Well, I heard. I'm just really sorry that was
your choice.

Oh, no. I'm joking. Amazing. I didn't expect
that as

an answer. With the saxophone and the guitar
guitar and the musicalinstruments and your art, I
didn't expect you to say DavidBowie, but

No. No. No. No. Under pressure.
Okay.

No. No. That's a excellent answer, Boris. So last
question. What would you like tosee happen in the future?
Will it be microscopy or career?What would you like to see or
have enabled in the future?

Oh.

That's a big question, isn't it?

That's a big question and can have many
answer. Right? I mean, that'sbut what what to prioritize? I
mean, I think I mean, obviously,I enjoy mentoring students, and
I and, like, the firstgeneration now when went out,
and then, hopefully, there willbe others. And one thing is to

(59:48):
see them succeeding.
I mean, it's a scientist inbuilding up their own labs and
so on or their own interest,something that I would like to
see. I mean, it started already,but, I I I hope that it will

(01:00:10):
happen more and more. And on theother hand, also for the
instrument that we build, someof them are still very much
academic instrument if you want,like, not super easy to use. And
and, yeah, my big dream is,like, to making them accessible
so to see that they, you know,be honed, our developer

(01:00:32):
community that that they coulddo something and impact, science
in a in a broader way.

Peter O'Toole (01:00:41):
Well, I think they're both really good. I'd
say you almost got your labchildren and see your lab
children go on to succeed. And,actually, the the one of the
recent podcasts I did, I had theprivilege of actually doing 3 of
my former lab members, who'veall got different careers now.
They're all successful, alldifferent careers. And I thought
that was quite nice to just tosee how their careers had

(01:01:01):
developed from the same startingpoint.
Just like yourself, they allstart looking at the same sort
of technology, and they've allgone off in different ways. All
run away from the technology,but nonetheless well, the
technology they were working.But actually, it's it's it's
been interesting. So it'll beinteresting to see where all
your children

Ilaria Testa (01:01:18):
I see.

Go go up and how they succeed. And I'm absolutely
right because your technology'ssuper cool. The work is super
useful, and making that moreuser friendly just makes it more
widely applicable to manydifferent science beauties,
which would be wonderful.Hilaria, thank you so much,
Dave. Everyone who's listened orwatched, please don't forget to
subscribe.
Go back. You can listen to LottaRichard Rakesh. You can listen

(01:01:41):
to Stefan Heller that you'veheard about and others on the
previous podcast. But Elara hasbeen really lovely, and
congratulations again on yournew child. And do you know what?
Son or daughter?

Say again?

Son or daughter?

Daughter. 2 female.

2 female?

Yes. So

Right. You know, you've got such so much thank
you for taking time out today asyou still working with your
children, and you still tooktime to talk to me today. So
thank you so much, Laria.

Thank you for having me. Grateful grateful to
join.

And I thank you. You've been brilliantly
inspirational, and I'm sureeveryone's loved listening to
this. Ilaria, thank you.

VX (01:02:21):
Thank you. Bye. Thank you for listening to The
Microscopists, a Bite Size Biopodcast sponsored by Zeiss
Microscopy. To view all audioand video recordings from this
series, please visitbitesizebio.comforward/themicroscopists.

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