Kelly Vere (University of Nottingham)

#77 — Kelly Vere is the University Director of Technical Strategy at the University of Nottingham. In this episode of The Microscopists, Kelly joins Peter O’Toole to discuss funding her degree by working as a Junior Medical Technician with no science A Levels. They also chat about the amazing work Kelly has done to champion the work of technicians in education and get their contributions internationally recognized.

Watch or listen to all episodes of The Microscopists: http://themicroscopists.bitesizebio.com/

Episode Transcript

Intro/Outro (00:01):
Welcome to The Microscopists, a bite sized bio
podcast hosted by Peter O'Toole,sponsored by Zeiss Microscopy.
Today on The Microscopists

Peter O'Toole (00:16):
Today on The Microscopists, I'm joined by
Kelly Rhea, who reminds usthere's more than one way to go
about getting a degree.

Kelly Vere (00:23):
I kind of thought, okay. I think I need to go and

Intro/Outro (00:26):
get a degree to be able to give me a foundation for
future career. I think that was

Kelly Vere (00:30):
the case certainly in the late nineties. I couldn't
necessarily afford to go touniversity in the traditional
sense. So I just looked for anyjob, any job. I didn't mind what
it was as long as it would payfor me to get a degree part of
time.

Peter O'Toole (00:41):
She explains the initiatives that she set up to
get the contributions oftechnicians in education
internationally recognized.

Kelly Vere (00:49):
I thought, like, I thought it would be amazing if I
could get 5 universities to signthis thing, you know, for the
launch. But we actually launchedthe technician commitment at the
second UK Higher EducationTechnician Summit, which we held
in Warwick in 2017. And welaunched with 36 founding
signatories, which was justamazing. And that was in the May

(01:09):
and then by the September of thesame year, I think we were up to
over 70 signatories.

Peter O'Toole (01:13):
And how she would have become an astronaut were we
not forget any dreadfulseasickness.

Kelly Vere (01:18):
Problem is, I do get really seasick, so I'd probably
really struggle, wouldn't I? Youknow, there's those, like, test
things you have to do whetheryeah. I'd probably be useless,
to be honest.

Peter O'Toole (01:28):
All in this episode of The Microscopist. Hi.
Welcome to the microscopist. I'mPeter O'Toole. And today, I'm
joined by Kelly Vere, MBE fromthe University of Nottingham and
the UK Institute of TechnicalSkills and Strategy.
And we have a lot to describetoday. Kelly, how are you?

Kelly Vere (01:49):
I'm good. Thanks, Pete. It's good to see you.

Peter O'Toole (01:51):
Yeah. Likewise, Kelly. Thank you for agreeing to
this. I I do you know what? Youmight be the first MBE that I've
actually done.
What is, for the internationalaudience, an MBE?

Kelly Vere (02:01):
Oh, gosh. Okay. So it's an award, I guess, made by
the crown. So it means you're amember of the order of the
British Empire. Yeah.
It was it was a huge surpriseand a big shock when I was
awarded that.

Peter O'Toole (02:15):
And and who awarded you the MBE?

Kelly Vere (02:18):
Oh, you mean in person at the Yeah. Investor? So
the letter I was really luckybecause the original letter, it
it was signed off by themajesty, the queen, so it was
really lovely. And then inperson, the investiture was,
Prince William, which was a nicedelight, I have to say, a real
delight.

Peter O'Toole (02:35):
So that's actually a really mega
achievement. So I think we cansay you're very a high flyer,
very successful in your career.You

Kelly Vere (02:45):
know I'm going to get really uncomfortable with
you saying things like that, butthank you. That's pretty kind.

Peter O'Toole (02:49):
Okay. Well, you're an inspiration to many,
and we'll come to that later on.And actually, so Kelly's been
involved in really the careerprogressions, the environments
of many researchers, and hasbeen instrumental in some
significant changes throughoutUK academia and now going wider
into the internationalenvironment, which we'll discuss

(03:11):
in more detail later. Butfirstly, I wanna dig back and
find out, when you were a youngchild, so the can you remember
what your the earliest job youever fancied doing?

Kelly Vere (03:23):
Yeah. I can remember it really clearly. I wanted to
be an astronaut. Desperatelywanted to be an astronaut. What
happened?
It never quite got there. Neverquite got there.

Peter O'Toole (03:37):
Yet.

Kelly Vere (03:37):
Yet. Yet. Yeah. I don't know if I fancy it as much
now, but, yeah, I did back backas a young girl. I did.
Yeah. For sure.

Peter O'Toole (03:43):
So what inspired you? Why what was what was do
you remember a trigger of whyyou were so into space and
wanted to be an astronaut?

Kelly Vere (03:50):
My dad and I had always had a shared passion for
sort of human space flight, youknow, like the Apollo missions
and and things like that. So Ithink there was a shared sort of
passion there with my father.And then I remember Helen
Charman, who was the 1st Britonof Space, obviously Little Women
in STEM as well, which wasamazing. So I guess her as well.

(04:10):
Yeah.
Well, in STEM. And, actually, myson now is really into that type
of thing, which is exciting. SoI get to share that with him and
my dad now, which is lovely.

Peter O'Toole (04:18):
How old is your son?

Kelly Vere (04:19):
16 now. 16.

Peter O'Toole (04:21):
Does he still want to be an astronaut?

Kelly Vere (04:24):
A pilot. So who knows? Okay.

Peter O'Toole (04:28):
So far from wanting to be from wanting to be
an astronaut, which is very Idon't know what degree you'd do
to be an astronaut. I guess thatcould be almost anything,
couldn't it? What what was yourfirst degree in?

Kelly Vere (04:40):
Well, my first degree was in biomedical
sciences, but I guess I I guessI did that in a slightly
unconventional way at the time.

Peter O'Toole (04:49):
Go on.

Kelly Vere (04:50):
So I was I I did really well in my GCSEs at
school. I was a bright kid. If Iwanted I probably didn't have to
work too hard. I was alright. Ihad a natural affinity for
exams.
Then I went to college and didmy a doubles. I didn't do so
great in my a doubles. I think Ithought, quite arrogantly, I
guess, on reflection that Icould just get great grades

(05:13):
without having to do muchbecause I could do exams, but,
that wasn't the case at all. SoI did pass my a levels, but
nowhere near with the gradesthat I would have hoped, you
know, to get. And that was ahuge, like, shock, but I think
one of the most important thingsfor me actually individually to
go through, to realize thatactually it didn't always come

(05:34):
that easily.
I wanted to go to university andI could still go to university
with the grades I've got, but Iguess I was, I couldn't afford
to go to university in the sortof traditional sense. Whereas
most people access university,that just wasn't an option for
me. Yeah. So I thought back atthat time, I think we're talking

(05:54):
like 1999 now, so, yeah, latenineties, the the loans have
come in instead of the grants,the tuition fees, and so forth.
So it was a very different time,and I kind of thought, okay.
I think I need to go and

Intro/Outro (06:05):
get a degree to be able to give me a foundation for
future career.

Kelly Vere (06:08):
I think that was the case certainly in the late
nineties, but I couldn'tnecessarily afford to go to
university in a traditionalsense. So I just looked for any
job, any job. I didn't mind whatit was as long as it would pay
for me to get a degree part timeand I stumbled across an
advertisement in the local paperfor a junior medical technician
at the University of Nottingham.And so applied for that role and

(06:31):
to my amazement, got that rolebecause my inner was in science,
actually. So, yeah, I'm still tothis day not quite sure how I
managed it, but I was reallyfortunate to work with the
research group where the head ofthe research group funded my
tuition fees for a part timedegree in biomedical sciences at
Sheffield Hallam

Peter O'Toole (06:49):
University. What what role were you fulfilling at
that point?

Kelly Vere (06:53):
I was a junior medical technician in the
division of immunology, so aresearch technician essentially.

Peter O'Toole (06:58):
Okay. And so what were your a levels in?

Kelly Vere (07:01):
Gosh. Business studies, psychology, and
communication studies. So atsafety, it was really hard to go
from a GCSE in biology to a BSchonors in biomedical science,
you know, without the a levelbridge.

Peter O'Toole (07:19):
Yeah. So I've

Kelly Vere (07:20):
been that super tough. And, of course, I was
literally driving up the m oneto a lecture and then driving
back to work. So it wasn't thetraditional student experience
potentially. I

Peter O'Toole (07:31):
didn't do a level biology.

Kelly Vere (07:34):
Did you not?

Peter O'Toole (07:35):
No. Caught up very quickly in a degree in
biochemistry. That was kind of acrash course in a level biology
in the first year.

Kelly Vere (07:41):
Yeah. I I found it really, really tough, but I
guess it did give me a workethic, particularly, you know,
after I'd had that shock to thesystem of not doing quite as
long as I'd like to in my alevel.

Peter O'Toole (07:53):
Yeah. Well, yeah, my a levels were also poor. They
they weren't great. But you getthat imposter syndrome. And I
think I'm competitive.
So that, yeah, kicked me backinto learnt how to learn at
university. I don't think I everproperly learned how to learn
before that.

Kelly Vere (08:08):
Mhmm.

Peter O'Toole (08:09):
I think, schools now are very different, I think.
Far more focused on teaching howto learn as well Mhmm. Which is
good. So from that degree, whathappened next?

Kelly Vere (08:20):
Gosh. Okay. So I guess whilst it was hard work,
it was really beneficial to beworking full time and gaining a
degree part time because, Iguess I had that work experience
alongside full time students onmy course who, you know, whose
degree actually took the sametime as mine, but they had a
sandwich year. Remember thesandwich year degrees? Yeah.

(08:41):
So I completed my degree at thesame time as my fellow students,
but I guess because I built upso much experience or 4 years
worth of experience as atechnician at the University of
Nottingham, it put me in astrong position to apply for a
more senior role, and that'swhen I actually moved into
imaging. I went to work incopper for microscopy, actually,
at the age of 24, I think.

Peter O'Toole (09:02):
And where was that? Was that at Nottingham?

Kelly Vere (09:04):
Yeah. That was at the University of Nottingham as
well and the medical school.

Peter O'Toole (09:08):
So what was your first confocal?

Kelly Vere (09:11):
Oh, gosh. You're testing my memory now. I think
it was a Leica s b 2, if mymemory serves me correctly.
Yeah.

Peter O'Toole (09:18):
You must be come on. You always remember your
first confocal.

Kelly Vere (09:22):
I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it's my age,
but my memory is not what itwas.

Peter O'Toole (09:28):
So to that, that's sort of to your degree
side and everything else. And Itake you're enjoying the
technical role, supporting,using the confocal microscope.
But you've you've moved overfrom that. So you now go over to
be kind of nationallyinternationally, internationally

(09:48):
leading, championing technicalskills. I I don't know.
What's the best way to describeit? You'll be far better at
describing this than I am.

Kelly Vere (09:59):
It's so of a mystery to me, to be honest with you, in
some ways. I guess when I firstbecame a junior medical
technician, I was just 18. I wasfresh out of avails. I arrived
at this university. You know,I'd never stepped foot on a
university campus before.
I guess as a naive 18 year old,I thought universities were full
of professors and students. Ididn't realise there were these

(10:20):
whole, you know, amazing peoplewho really make science,
innovation, research andeducation happen. So that was
quite amazing to me and itbecame very apparent that, you
know, technical staff were vitalto the university's mission.
However, I soon realized that Iguess beyond the immediate
research group when you lookedto the wider department or

(10:42):
school or faculty or universityand then even the sector as a
whole, as as technicians, ourprofession, right, didn't really
experience strong visibility orrecognition or the same career
development opportunities thatour academic academic colleagues
had, and I can remember thatrealization really starkly. As I

(11:04):
advanced sort of my career as atechnician, so I became senior
research technician.
I was working with a corporateperspective I've mentioned. I
became a institute laboratorymanager. One of the
opportunities that came up was ascholarship from HEFCE to study
a part time master's in highereducation. So I applied for
that. It wasn't clear iftechnicians were eligible or

(11:24):
not, and, I applied for that asa way to, I guess, build some
insights, knowledge, andunderstanding as to the
technical role in highereducation because there's a real
positive literature, andstrategic understanding of what
technicians do in universitiesand research institutes and I
guess that if you like ended upbeing a bit of a springboard to
becoming what I would describeas an accidental advocate for

(11:47):
the technical profession.
After I wrote my master'sdissertation on the role of
university technicians I wasinvited to, well actually no,
first thing that happened was Iwrote a piece for Times Higher
Education, an article calledfirm fussing. I didn't think
they will publish it. I wasabsolutely amazed when they
published it, and they paid me.I couldn't believe it. But I

(12:09):
guess by doing that, Iaccidentally put my head above
the parapet.
So, you know, I had thisrallying call about how, you
know, we absolutely needed tosupport technical staff and
recognizing and invest in thiscrucial, you know, workforce,
And then it spiraled.

Peter O'Toole (12:23):
So interesting. So you've got the article out in
Times Higher Education. Howpassionate were you about the
needs at that time? Was it justkind of an academic exercise?
You put it into Times HigherEducation.
It's like, oh, that'sinteresting. I'll I'll write it.
Because now obviously you'revery passionate about it. Were
you as passionate about theroles of technical staff and

(12:45):
their development back then asyou are now? Or was that mature?
Did you realize the biggerpicture?

Kelly Vere (12:50):
No. Absolutely as passionate back then.
Absolutely. When you're livingit and breathing it and walking
the walk every day, of courseyou're passionate about it, you
know, absolutely. And andactually that decision to
publish in Times Higher was avery deliberate one.
I remember talking to mydissertation supervisor about a
potential academic article thatcould come out of the
dissertation and I kind of feltreally strongly, well, no, with

(13:14):
the greatest respect, not manypeople would have looked at that
and read it, and, actually,there was a real need to do
something for the technicalprofession. And I felt that, you
know, a news sort of magazine orsomething would be more widely
read and therefore potentiallymight help do something for us.

Peter O'Toole (13:31):
Which it has, because I I I know where it's
got, obviously, quite close tothe project. But what were the
next steps? Who approached youto did you approach someone and
try and drive it forward andactually make something happen?
Or were you approached to helpmake something happen?

Kelly Vere (13:50):
Gosh, Pete. I've got to try and reflect on what
happened, really. So the articlecame out, and then I was invited
to give a keynote lecture at aconference, a half an hour
lecture. I I am reallyfrightened with public speaking
even to this day. It's just notsomething that I'm naturally
comfortable

Peter O'Toole (14:07):
with. And yet you're very good when you're
publicly speaking.

Kelly Vere (14:11):
Well, that's very kind. Thank you. But I do get
really, really nervous aboutpublic speaking. And, I can
remember being asked to do thistalk and thinking, I can't do
that. I'm just too terrified todo that.
But realizing that I couldn'targue in a national publication
that we needed to givetechnicians voice and visibility
and then be given that voice andvisibility and say, oh, no.
Thank you. So I knew I had tostep out of my comfort zone and

(14:34):
do that. I did that talk andleft that day with 6 more on
vacations to go and speak atdifferent organizations and it
sort of spiraled. And aroundthat time I was sort of looking
at what else wasn't or wasavailable to Temple staff
nationally and something thatwas missing, I felt, was a

(14:55):
national conference fortechnical staff working in neuro
education and research.
And so I made one up and wehosted it at the University of
Nottingham in 2015. And, I canremember really clearly having a
conversation with someone in thecomms team here at the
university, and this was anational conference for

Peter O'Toole (15:14):
technicians

Kelly Vere (15:14):
across the UK. But they said, oh, don't call it a
conference. Call it a summit.Because if you call it a summit,
it's how people will get behindthe summit, it sounds much
grander. And so we created theUK Higher Education Technicians
Summit, which is now known asHECS and, you know, that's got a
life of its own now, which iswonderful.
It's a big, professionaldevelopment and networking about
the technical staff and highereducation research, which takes

(15:34):
place every 2 years. Off theback of that, or I should say,
alongside the summit we createdsomething called the Paquin
Prizes. I felt really stronglyabout that. There was no sort of
national award scheme fortechnicians, so creative won,
and we were delighted because,you know, we awarded them at the

(15:55):
1st Tower Education TechniciansSummit and I think over 250
technicians across the UK werenominated, which was just
amazing, you know, to seecolleagues get that recognition
and see how great they felt whenthey saw, you know, that
someone's taking the time to puta nomination, which is
wonderful. Off the back of that,the Science Council approached
me about working with them,particularly around the theme of

(16:17):
professional registration in thefirst instance.
Yeah.

Peter O'Toole (16:23):
So I you say 2015 for that conference. Just think
about how short the time frameis to achieve so much. From the
article to the talks to theconference to the conference is
to the, I guess, thetechnician's commitment, then
led on from that.

Kelly Vere (16:42):
It did. So I joined the Science Council on a part
time second, an externalsecondment, and originally they
were looking to see how theycould promote professional
registration to the technicalcommunity. So professional
registration as you know Pete iswhen you can get your charter
scientist or your charterengineer, for example, status,
but the Science Council hadrecently introduced 2 new levels

(17:04):
of registration which sit justbelow chartered status, which I
guess for the first time createda pathway for colleagues to, you
know, go on that sort ofchartered journey. So
technicians could be applied tobe registered science
technicians, for example, orregistered engineering
technicians. And I know therewas work underway in other sort
of subject disciplines as well,but, you know, ultimately
technical staff can be charterscientists and engineering.

(17:25):
We have a number of those inplace now. However, when I was
working with the Science Councilon that piece, you know, it's it
was immediately apparent againthat universities just don't
have neat ways of speaking to,you know, to them about
technical staff. Not one personhas responsibility for technical
staff, so it's very hard forexternal organisations to come
to a university and say, oh, wemust talk about how we can

(17:47):
invest in or develop yourtechnical staff, because no one
has that portfolio, and so thatgot me thinking that we needed
something that created, I guess,a bit of a pledge or a per you
know, coupled with a person or afigurehead for individual
institutions to really getbehind, and that's where the
idea for the techniciancommitment came from.

Peter O'Toole (18:10):
It also explains why, Simon Breeden at your well,
who was at York at the time,suddenly became responsible for
every technician on campusPretty much through that. See,
because obviously, a lot ofuniversities became signatories
of the technicians commitment toreally show that they're engaged
in the development of thecareers, for their technical

(18:33):
staff throughout the university.And not just to the sciences.
It's across the board. And, youknow, microscopists, as as the
SCCs in microscopists, are justa small, very small niche part
of a much bigger picture.
And, actually, I think York,through Debbie Smith, I think it
was, was one of the firstsignatories on that, when
everyone put ink to pen topaper. Is that the right word to

(18:56):
use?

Kelly Vere (18:57):
Absolutely. Yes. Paper. Cool. Yeah.
So, essentially, you're quiteright. The technician put in is
a pledge that we askuniversities universities and
research institutes originallyacross the UK to make, and by
signing the techniciancommitment, they are pledging
activity against 4 key pillarsthat impact their technical
staff. So they're visibility,recognition, career development,

(19:17):
and sustainability. And bysustainability, I mean sort of,
you know, the sustainability ofthe skills, and the skills in
the organization. I thought,like, I thought it would be
amazing if I could get 5universities to sign this thing,
you know, for the launch.
But we actually launched thetechnician commitment at the 2nd
UK Higher Education TechniciansSummit, which we held in Warwick

(19:38):
in 2017, and we launched with 36founding signatories, which was
just amazing. And that was inthe May, and then by the
September of the same year, Ithink we were up to over 70
signatories. And now thetechnician commitment stands
over a 117 signatory,universities, research
institutes, and supporting ourorganizations. As you know, the
Royal Society are one of oursupporters.

Peter O'Toole (20:01):
And not just the UK?

Kelly Vere (20:03):
No. So to be honest, when I launched the technician
commitment, we got quite a lotof interest internationally
immediately with, you know,institutions internationally
wanting to sign the commitmentand get on board, And I just
felt that we had to proceed withcaution on that, not because I
didn't want to go on a worldtour or go global or anything
like that. Of course not. Ofcourse, we wanna share good

(20:24):
practice, but at that point, wedidn't have that good practice
and felt that we needed to provethat this model, this framework
could work and deliver realimpact for institutions and for
the technical staff within them,not just go on, yeah, a world
war straight away as nice as itwould have been. But I

Peter O'Toole (20:38):
I I remember I remember talking to you about
making it international anddriving faster. And you guys and
you were, like, slow down slowdown. But you could see the
European the movements that werehappening within the so core
technologies for life sciences,for example, that was bringing
out and there was a risk of alot of duplication of efforts.

(20:59):
When actually there was a prettyperfect exemplar to the
technician's commitment that wasthere on the peg. That they
could just take off the peg andrun with and take it out, which
which I think is what's now beenhappening.
So you got Institute in Germany.Is that right? That signed up
Australia?

Kelly Vere (21:17):
Not yet, but Australia. So you're absolutely
right. The tech the beauty ofthe commitment is its
simplicity, really. It's acommon framework, which you're
absolutely right we can useinternationally. Our 1st
international sync through theUniversity of Sydney, we worked
with them quite carefullyactually to ensure that we could
give them the support that theyneeded to, you know, learn from
the best practices frominstitutions across the UK and

(21:38):
body up if you like.
So that's been really exciting.And then we also have, the
welcome program in, what, ohgosh, Malawi. Sorry. Raining fog
there. But, yeah, in Malawi,which is excellent.
So that's the Liverpool welcome,program over there, which has
become our tech andinternational center, which is
really exciting.

Peter O'Toole (21:56):
So so I think it's still quite an influence.
Still, it's had a massiveinfluence and still a lot of
growth potential within it. I'mgonna, just skip for a moment
because I will come back to theInstitute For Technical Skills
and Talent and how TSN how willthese things fit together?
Because it becomes more and morecomplex as you go through. But

(22:21):
throughout all of this, you'vegot a a son.
Is it just one child you got?One son?

Kelly Vere (22:26):
No. I've got 2. 2? I've got one son and one
daughter.

Peter O'Toole (22:29):
And how old are they?

Kelly Vere (22:31):
Now they're 16 and 13. So, yeah, 2 teenagers in the
house.

Peter O'Toole (22:34):
So at the start of this, they'd have been 6 and
3 or even younger at that point.

Kelly Vere (22:39):
Mhmm.

Peter O'Toole (22:42):
How did you balance bringing up your
children through and doing somuch. You know, how did you keep
the energy, the passion, thedrive? How did you actually
balance that work life side ofthings? Because that can't have
been easy.

Kelly Vere (22:59):
No. I guess it wasn't. And and I if I'm
absolutely honest, I probablyhaven't got my work life balance
always particularly right, ifthat makes sense. Obviously, my
children are my priority firstand foremost, but I think it's
really important they see me goto work and be passionate about
the job I do and try and makesome change in my tiny little
part of the world, if that makessense. I'm also really lucky.

(23:20):
I've got an incredibly, youknow, supportive family. You
know, my parents are hands onwith their grandchildren when
they were small and stillcontinue to be, which is which
is really lovely. So, yeah,great people around me too.

Peter O'Toole (23:32):
Tiny part of the world. How many technicians just
in the UK?

Kelly Vere (23:37):
Well, that's an interesting question because it
depends on how you define atechnician, but we estimate
around 45,000 at least with anumber of gray areas around that
way.

Peter O'Toole (23:45):
And that's just your little parts role. The
influencing and

Kelly Vere (23:50):
the part

Peter O'Toole (23:51):
world. 45,000 people, you've probably had a
positive impact, for a largeportion.

Kelly Vere (23:57):
Oh, I I hope so. I hope so because that's why we do
what we do, isn't it? What'sbeen really lovely about the
kids is that they've been ableto get involved a little bit
with some of my work along theway, so that's been really nice.
One example of that is, we workwith Gatsby on a new technician
gallery at the Science Museum inLondon. I think you're familiar

(24:18):
with that, aren't you, Pete?

Peter O'Toole (24:19):
Yep.

Kelly Vere (24:20):
This is something that showcases technician
careers across all sectors anddisciplines to 12 to 16 year
olds, but when we launched thegallery, so the year before it
opened, the science camp, thescience museum realized that
they didn't have a kid who wasbetween 12 16 years old to sort
of talk about it and so my son,Lewis, came in gave a speech at

(24:43):
the sort of press gathering forthe launch of the Science Museum
Gallery all about well, shewrote himself all about how
technicians were were vital,really, to society. And, of
course, he took the angle of awhat was he then? 13, 14 year
old lad. So he was talkingabout, you know, how they, when
he's had a blood test, it'stechnicians who analyzed the
results. When he's on hisPlayStation, it's technicians

(25:04):
who built the games and soforth, but it was kinda nice
that I've been able to sort ofintertwine that a little bit.

Peter O'Toole (25:10):
So you've been, hopefully, an influence to them
and probably one of theirinspirations as they get older.
And I think when they look back,it's very hard for children when
they grow up with that aroundthem. They don't realize just
how big an impact you'veprobably had. I think when they
get older, they'll find thatreally inspiring. Who've been
your inspirations?

(25:32):
In line, are you sort of inwork, out of work, whichever
way, who who are you been yourinfluences?

Kelly Vere (25:39):
My parents. Definitely. I know it's probably
an obvious one to say, but it'sthe true one. They're proper
grafters. You know?
We crack on and we get stuffdone and that, you know, the
work ethic, I think they'veinstilled in me. It's been huge,
and they still work hard now.They're supposed to be retired
but they're struggling withthat.

Peter O'Toole (25:58):
How proud are they of? Do they realize you're
being passed? They must. You'vegot an MBE, so that would that
would that for them, they mustbe so chuffed.

Kelly Vere (26:06):
Don't get me wrong. I have a I have a sister as
well, and my mom and dad areincredibly proud of of me and
Michelle. Absolutely. If I'mhonest, they probably didn't
completely have an idea of whatI did for a for a job, and I
think it is quite hard when youwork in institutions like ours,
isn't it, to describe what youdo on a day to day basis? They
knew I worked on technicians andand and so forth, but they
didn't probably quiteunderstand.

(26:27):
And I think, yeah, I think theMBA was a big shock to them. I I
rang them, and I I was quiteemotional about it. It was in
lockdown, so I couldn't go andsee them, when my letter came,
you see.

Peter O'Toole (26:39):
Hello?

Kelly Vere (26:40):
Yeah. I don't think that's the news they thought I
was gonna tell them.

Peter O'Toole (26:45):
Mondo, I've got another child on the way.

Kelly Vere (26:48):
That's what they got me. I was like, no. No. Not
that. But it was lovely because,because it was lockdown, we
actually had to wait a year forthe investiture.
But whilst they couldn't comeinto Windsor Castle with me,
they came down to Windsor withthe kids and yeah. It was it was
a special day for sure.

Peter O'Toole (27:05):
So that's so so I I think it's really nice. So
they they've been yourinspiration, but they can see
the success that that's that'sbrought. And if they listen to
this podcast, hopefully they'llrealize you're influencing
45,000 people or more. And thatglobal influence throughout it.
This all sounds great, but theremust have been difficult or
challenging times throughout thecareer.

(27:28):
What what has been the mostchallenging time or difficult
time you've had to face?

Kelly Vere (27:35):
Probably on the spot now, Pete. I think I don't think
I'd seen, like, one singlechallenging time. I think it's I
think it's it's it's hard tojuggle everything, isn't it? You
know? I want and to feel likeyou're doing a good job in all
areas of your life.
So as well as obviously, havingchildren and and and the job and
so forth and wanting to investfor the colleagues that you work

(27:56):
with and are advocating foressentially, I was still keen to
progress my studies. So afterthe masters, I took on a ed d,
so a part time doctorate ineducation to continue my
research into technical skills,roles, and careers in higher
education. That ended up takingme 9 years to complete the

(28:17):
because it was just so hard tojuggle everything, and it was so
hard to fit everything into theday. So there were some really
challenging moments then.

Peter O'Toole (28:25):
How do you stay motivated through that?

Kelly Vere (28:27):
Sorry? How

Peter O'Toole (28:28):
do you stay motivated over 9 years?

Kelly Vere (28:31):
Well, I guess if you're passionate about
something, and actually mypractice and I guess my
academics study were veryheavily intertwined, which is
the beauty of a professionaldoctorate like an MD, actually.
You're researching your ownpractice, so I guess that's how
you stay. So that was tricky,and I guess there's another
there'll be there'll be justlittle nuggets of examples of

(28:52):
where, you know, ultimately I'mI guess I've been trying to
advocate for community whotraditionally have, as I
mentioned, who experienced alack of visibility and
recognition and sometimes theresearch culture for people in
that community isn't alwayspositive. So I've had a few
negative comments thrown my way,you know, along the journey, and
that can be pretty hard to dustyourself down from. Are these

Peter O'Toole (29:17):
negative comments from senior academics or people
very senior within theuniversity environment or are
these from actually techniciansthemselves or both?

Kelly Vere (29:25):
Say I'd say a mixture, Pete, to be honest. A
mixture. But I must stress, youknow, I'm incredibly well
supported here at the Universityof Nottingham. It's it's, you
know, it's just individualcomments. I think I've been told
to get back in my box onoccasion because I'm just a
technician.
I had a postdoctoral researchertell me once when she learned

(29:45):
that I was a technician, thatshe wouldn't wipe her shoes on
someone the likes of me whereshe came from. You know, just
just little barbed commentsalong the way because, I guess,
you're trying to do somethingdifferent, aren't you? And when
you try to do somethingdifferent, that can make people
feel uncomfortable. But I guessthose sort of things really just
strengthen your resolve to makea change for the better for the

(30:06):
community you're from. So

Peter O'Toole (30:09):
Yeah. So just just the thought of someone
saying, you know, that shewouldn't buy her shoes. It's
it's just in any in any world,that that's almost an
unacceptable language, really,isn't it?

Kelly Vere (30:23):
I think she was trying to almost like she was
from a very she wasn't from theinstitution that I work at. She
was from a different institutionwith very hierarchical
structures where the postdoc washere and the technician was
here. And I think when she firstjoined the team, she assumed I
was a postdoc like her. And whenshe learned I was a technician,
I was, woah. You know?
I'm I'm here. You're here. Andand that's just one example, I

(30:45):
guess, of sometimes the negativecultures that technicians do
very sadly operate in. I thinkit's changed much for the
better, and that's a massive aimof the technician commitment to
improve, you know, the cultureand environment for all
colleagues who contribute to theresearch ecosystem.

Peter O'Toole (30:59):
Yeah. I I guess so simple. I guess I fell into
more technical roles withoutrealising it, I guess. And and I
I will champion York becausethey're extra well, they've just
been exceptionally good.Certainly for the technology
facility and progressing thecareers, also the careers and
the staff within it have beenreally quite amazing.

(31:20):
I'm not sure that's the sameeverywhere across campus. But
certainly within that facility,there's I don't think there's
ever been that them and us. It'salways been a I I thought an us
as in we're just together, Ithink. And I think that's even
got even better, over the years.And I guess they just see us as

(31:43):
extensions to their labs at thatpoint because we are part of
their team for those bits ofwork.
And I think that's reallyimportant. I do. Yeah. We talked
I I think we spoke about thiswith some of the other like,
with Stefan De Jong and stuff inother meetings. Alison North and
Kurt Andersen talking aboutthese type of roles within it.
Thinking of these types ofroles, we've got so I'm involved

(32:06):
with Core Technologies for LifeSciences, which is, I guess,
technical provision of high endtechnology for life sciences.
We've got the technicalspecialist network here in the
UK, which is for, I guess, moretechnology orientated technical
staff across the sciences andarts and humanities. So across

(32:26):
all disciplines. But it's stilla sort of a an a subset of all
technical services. You've gotthe talent.
Stuff down in, the Midlands,Innovation area. And then we've
got the Institute of TechnicalSkills and Strategy. Oh my god.
How do all these fit together?

Kelly Vere (32:45):
Do you want me to walk you through it?

Peter O'Toole (32:47):
Go on, please.

Kelly Vere (32:49):
Okay. So the technician commitment, as we've
already talked about, launchedin 2017 and I guess what that
did was really create anenvironment where you know as a
sector we had more recognitionof the challenges and
opportunities for the technicalcommunity. What the technician
commitment did by creating thatenvironment is I guess is

(33:09):
provide an opportunity to applyto funding bodies for work to
design, I guess, innovativeinterventions to try and address
some of those challenges that weidentified through the
commitment and collectively as asector we're looking to address.
So the first, bid that I wroteto research Unum was the talent
programme as you mentioned. Sothat was an award just under

(33:29):
£5,000,000 made to the MidlandsInnovation Universities.
How much? It's 4,900,000. Yeah.I know.

Peter O'Toole (33:39):
Is that your first grant?

Kelly Vere (33:41):
As a principal investigator. Yes.

Peter O'Toole (33:45):
Okay. That's impressive. Okay.

Kelly Vere (33:48):
But, again, it's great, isn't it? Because, you
know and researching you were sosupportive in that, you know, as
a technician, they felt it wasappropriate that I learned that
seeing as though it was aproject about technical staff.
So, yeah, really important.Apologies. I can see my,
calendar things popping upthere.
Hopefully, they're not coming upon your screen as well, can you?

Peter O'Toole (34:07):
No. No. It's fine.

Kelly Vere (34:09):
So, yes, so £4,900,000 from talent, which
was great for a project to pilotnew initiatives in the Midlands,
but to also generate strategicinsight and knowledge
nationally, so the projectabsolutely had national reach as
well as, you know, trialing someparticular interventions around
learning, development andculture change in the Midlands.
The big sort of strategic piecethrough talent was the Talent

(34:32):
Commission, which we publishedin 2022. For this, this is
something I've wanted to do fora long time, but we were able to
pull together an amazing team ofcommissioners, all types of
backgrounds. So we have vicechancellors, we have
representativeships from fundingbodies, we have technicians
quite rightly, you know,representatives from industry,
professional bodies, learningsocieties, and so forth. And

(34:53):
those colleagues worked togetherfor a period of 20 months, to
develop a report for the sectorwhich really provided some, you
know, essential foundationalknowledge and strategic insights
into the technical workforce inUK Higher Education and
Research.
That made 16 recommendations, tothe sector and to different
parts of the sector.Recommendation number 16 was

(35:15):
that we needed a more permanententity to build on the work of
the technician commitment andthe talent project, and the
suggestion from the commissionwas that it should be an entity
working title, UK InstituteTechnical Skills and Strategy.
That led us to then writeanother bid to Research England
and we were awarded £5,500,000last year to establish the new

(35:38):
UK Institute of Technical Skillsand Strategy. The new institute
is the home now of thetechnician commitment, so
previously the Science Councilhad hosted the commitment on
behalf of the sector, it's nowmoved to the Institute of
Technical Skills and Strategy.The Institute of Technical
Skills and Strategy also hoststhe UK Technology Specialist
Network, which you and I knowwell.

Peter O'Toole (35:59):
So I I'm just thinking, you are so if I go
back, you were seconded, to dosome of this work in the very
early stages. Are you now fulltime

Kelly Vere (36:09):
on this? So I was seconded initially to the
science council, so you workedaround professional registration
and then to, like you know, thatevolved into the tension
commitment, which is about muchbroader things than just
professional registration. Theprofessional registration is
crucial. Now my role atNottingham is I'm director of
technical strategy for theuniversity. We have a team of

(36:30):
just over 700 technical staffhere at the university.
So that's my day job if youlike. And then I also lead the
UK Institute for Technical Filmand Strategy, the technician
commitment, and the talentprogram as part of

Peter O'Toole (36:42):
that project. Other full time job.

Kelly Vere (36:45):
Yeah. It's good, though. Keeps it keeps it
interesting. Right?

Peter O'Toole (36:50):
I I how do you juggle your priorities between
those two goals? And this is aninteresting point, actually. You
know, my goals with the RMS,TSN, CTLS, you gotta balance
that with the day job. And I'vealways taken that anything I do
on the the charity side, there'salways benefits to the day job.
The job that actually pays mysalary.

(37:11):
But but how do you actuallybecause you're leading it and it
needs real leadership, to driveit forward. How do you balance
that?

Kelly Vere (37:22):
What a really steep learning curve for me was you
know, at the beginning of all ofthis, it was just me. The
technician commitment was oneperson in the beginning. And,
actually, now at the institute,I think on head count we have a
head count of around 45colleagues working across
different projects, includingtalent and the commission
commitment. And I guess thatrecognition that you can't do it

(37:42):
all yourself was a a steeplearning curve for me, and it's
I'm just so privileged that, youknow, I work with wonderful
people who are all reallypassionate about this. You know?
And as a team, you know, we candeliver so much more than just
me on my own for sure.

Peter O'Toole (37:58):
How good are you delegating now then?

Kelly Vere (38:00):
I'm getting a lot better. I have to. No. A lot
better. And do you know what?
It's more about I think I wasbetter when I reframed it in my
head as it actually being aboutgiving people opportunities, you
know, in their careers ratherthan me feeling like I was
passing on a job, you know, thatwas a burden to them. It's been
wonderful to be able to givecolleagues opportunities to
really progress in trying newthings.

Peter O'Toole (38:22):
So we looked at challenging times and to to
where you got to today with it.What about the most favorite?
What's been the favorite time ofyour career to date? If you
could go back and relive a yearof your career, when would it
be?

Kelly Vere (38:36):
That's a really hard one, Pete. A really hard one.

Peter O'Toole (38:41):
You're not allowed to say next year.

Kelly Vere (38:43):
No. Okay. What would I say? There was a good year I
mean, I loved being atechnician. I'm not at the bench
now, but I did love being atechnician.
I remember getting my firstfirst author scientific paper.
You know, that was a specialmoment, so I'm picking out
moments rather than a wholeyear.

Peter O'Toole (38:59):
That's okay.

Kelly Vere (39:00):
One of the projects I'm most proud of actually is
something called the Herschelprogram. Are you familiar with
that, Pete? You probably are.

Peter O'Toole (39:09):
Yeah. Yeah. Not very well versed though.

Kelly Vere (39:11):
Yeah. So I guess I had always felt so I worked in
science and engineering as atechnician, and I always felt
that, you know, particularlywhen I was working in optical
engineering, I was frequentlythe only woman in the room. You
know, I and I definitely feltthat, well supported by, you
know, colleagues, but often, youknow, the the lone female in the
in the room. And I alwaysthought, oh, you know, there's

(39:34):
something we need to do aboutthis for sure. Was lucky enough
to work with the team here atNottingham to secure some EPSRC
funding a few years ago for aproject called the STEM change,
and that was looking at EDIacross the STEM workforce, but
my particular part of that was,you know, dedicated some
surprisingly to EDI and thetechnical community And we did

(39:55):
some, you know, very robustevidence based research that,
you know, published a a sectorreport in partnership with the
technician commitment, thatshowed amongst many other BDI
challenges that we had a reallack of women technical leaders
and managers in the technicalworkforce in UK higher education
and research.
And I feel really strongly thatit's one thing to report

(40:15):
something, but actually youshould do something about those
sort of things that you're, youknow, reporting on. And so,
fortunately, with the talentfunding, we were able, to create
a new program for women, and wecalled it the Hershel program
for women in technicalleadership. And whilst talent
was to pilot things in theMidlands with Herschel, I felt

(40:35):
the problem was so severe thatwe should go national with it
straight away. And so with theteam and talent we built, you
know, a really robust 6 monthprogramme, leadership and
development programme, butbespokely for women in technical
roles or who are aspiring to beleaders or managers in the
technical space. I thought wemight get 50 women once to do
the course.

(40:57):
The first cohort ran at over 200women. It was amazing, and I
can't tell you the energy thatwe have in the we have a one day
conference at the end of the 6month program, and the energy in
the out of the necessary thatwe're doing is just phenomenal.
And we're actually on our 3rdcohort of the Herschel program
now. We've been looking toadditional funding with UKRI to
keep that going. And by Julythis year, over 750 of my women

(41:20):
technical colleagues across theUK will have finished that
program, which is just it's justabout the time.
That's that's a favorite part ofmy job, definitely.

Peter O'Toole (41:28):
And I I again, it's just another solid impact,
isn't it? You I I you wow. Ifyou had a if you had a set of
achievements and so these aren'tjust reporting. You say you've
got so many achievements. It'sunbelievable.
I'm gonna I've just yeah.Anyway, so we asked you you

(41:52):
mentioned how you missed beingat the bench or you like being
at the bench. But that'sobviously migrated away from
that as as as it often does. Ifyou could do any job outside of
science, what job would it be?Just to as a tater for a day, a
week, a month, what would youlike

Kelly Vere (42:10):
to do? Astronaut.

Peter O'Toole (42:14):
Do you not, do you not do you not feel the
risks are too high now?

Kelly Vere (42:20):
What do I do with that?

Peter O'Toole (42:21):
Where would the technicians be? It's anything
wrong. Could you do that? If hesat you in that space rocket It

Kelly Vere (42:29):
probably is. I do get really seasick, so I'd
probably really struggle,wouldn't I? You know, those
those, like, test things youhave to do whether yeah. I'd
probably be useless, to behonest, but would it just be
fabulous to have that view backdown there? It's amazing,

Peter O'Toole (42:44):
isn't it? Well, if if any of our if anyone's
listening that's got one ofthose tickets to go up into
space. Yeah. I've got I've got avolunteer that we're all
deserving of getting up there.Katie, I'll ask you some quick
fire questions.

Kelly Vere (42:57):
Okay. That's good.

Peter O'Toole (42:58):
Are you an early bird or night owl?

Kelly Vere (43:00):
Nitell.

Peter O'Toole (43:01):
I know that one. PC or Mac? Mac. McDonald's or
Burger King?

Kelly Vere (43:08):
McDonald's.

Peter O'Toole (43:10):
What's your favorite thing? What's your
breakfast or dinner?

Kelly Vere (43:14):
Dinner.

Peter O'Toole (43:16):
Chicken or beef? Chicken. A chicken sandwich or
nuggets?

Kelly Vere (43:22):
Chicken sandwich.

Peter O'Toole (43:23):
Is that your go to then?

Kelly Vere (43:26):
Yeah. This time, I love chicken sandwich. Yeah.
Absolutely. You know my real goto, Pete.

Peter O'Toole (43:32):
We'll get there. Tea or coffee?

Kelly Vere (43:35):
Tea. I I wish I like coffee. I love the smell, and
I'm sure I would benefit hugelyfrom some coffee in my life, but
just don't like the taste.

Peter O'Toole (43:42):
No. That's okay. Beer or wine?

Kelly Vere (43:45):
Wine. Never beer.

Peter O'Toole (43:48):
Red or white?

Kelly Vere (43:50):
I love both, but I'd go for white if given the
choice.

Peter O'Toole (43:54):
Sauvignon Blanc or anything else?

Kelly Vere (43:56):
Blanca only if it's New Zealand.

Peter O'Toole (44:00):
Do you realize you're so particular on the the
New Zealand

Kelly Vere (44:02):
side? Yeah. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole (44:03):
Okay. Chocolate or cheese? Chocolate. Milk or
dark?

Kelly Vere (44:09):
Milk.

Peter O'Toole (44:11):
Cadbury's or other?

Kelly Vere (44:13):
Cadbury's.

Peter O'Toole (44:14):
Good Midlander. For those on the international
audience, Cadbury's chocolate ismade in the Midlands. Actually
not far away not far from whereI was brought up. What is your
favorite food?

Kelly Vere (44:28):
If you

Peter O'Toole (44:28):
if you were to be taken out on a conference or
something else, what would bethe best thing they could in
front of you? What if you'rejust like, oh,

Kelly Vere (44:35):
I know.

Peter O'Toole (44:35):
Do you know what

Kelly Vere (44:36):
I love doing if it was that sort of scenario? I
love going to. You know, like,the social aspect of of sharing
with me or with friends orcolleagues. I love that, so I go
tapas. Little bit of a

Peter O'Toole (44:47):
Okay. Okay. So okay. So now you've got all the
tapas. What is the one tapas youreally wouldn't want to have put
in front of you?
What is your worst food or yournightmare food?

Kelly Vere (44:56):
Shellfish.

Peter O'Toole (44:58):
Yeah. You could be shellfish. Just tell me what
it is now.

Kelly Vere (45:02):
I'm not a seafood fan, Pete. I'm not a seafood
fan.

Peter O'Toole (45:05):
It's okay. T, TV or book? Book. Oh, you reading
anything at the moment?

Kelly Vere (45:15):
Yeah. I am, actually. One of my team, oh,
was really kind, bought me abook. It's called the Apollo
Murders. So it's like the murdermystery but based on the moon.
So I'm not I'm not very far intoit yet, but, yeah.

Peter O'Toole (45:30):
I I'm just getting a sense that, you know,
there's never gonna be manypeople on the moon. So it's only
gonna be 1 of 3 people, isn'tit?

Kelly Vere (45:39):
1 of 3 people have been to the moon, please.

Peter O'Toole (45:41):
But if one's died, that leaves 2. That's not
really it's it's become a birdof mystery.

Kelly Vere (45:46):
I'm not far into it, but I thought that was really
kind.

Peter O'Toole (45:49):
Do you have any TV vices? Any trash TV that you
like to chill out to?

Kelly Vere (45:55):
I really enjoyed watching The Crown, actually,
particularly the 3rd season.That was really fascinating.
Yeah. That's

Peter O'Toole (46:01):
not quite so trashy. Maybe it went to be that
way, but that that's that's notthat respectable, isn't it, I
think? What about your favoritefilm?

Kelly Vere (46:11):
I love Apollo 13, She's probably not surprised to
you with it given that I've goneon about space quite a bit. I
love Apollo 13. I bet everybodysays short shrank redemption. I
love that.

Peter O'Toole (46:22):
No. I don't think I know. I don't think so. I
think maybe one person saidshort shrank redemption in all
the episodes. So, no, I I think,Apollo 13 is also a first.
That that's good. Star Trek orStar Wars then?

Kelly Vere (46:37):
Neither.

Peter O'Toole (46:38):
Neither. Am I? You don't like either of them?

Kelly Vere (46:42):
I've not seen them.

Peter O'Toole (46:44):
You've not seen them?

Kelly Vere (46:45):
Nope. Oh, actually, I might have seen one Star Wars
film, the one with the romancein it.

Peter O'Toole (46:53):
Oh, don't ask me. I don't watch Star Wars. Yeah.
I've watched much better.

Kelly Vere (46:57):
I don't I don't I don't know them, Pete. Don't
know.

Peter O'Toole (47:00):
I know. I've watched 123 when I was a child,
and it never really grabbed me.But Star Trek? Oh, no.

Kelly Vere (47:06):
No. I think my dad is in Star Trek, actually. But,
no, I'm neither. I mean, I don'tI'm not really a massive science
fiction person despite the bookI'm reading.

Peter O'Toole (47:15):
No. No. No. Don't. I'd go with that.
Just Star Trek. I just just inthe there's a bit of reality to
Star Trek, I think. It's notit's not too far fetched.

Kelly Vere (47:24):
Okay. I'll have a look.

Peter O'Toole (47:25):
On saying that, does yeah. Okay. I'll I'll just
open myself up to loads ofcriticism for saying that, so
I'm not gonna say that at all.It's not quite true. What about
your favorite Christmas film?

Kelly Vere (47:35):
Oh, what's the one, this one for life?

Peter O'Toole (47:38):
Yeah. Okay. And perfect color?

Kelly Vere (47:44):
Depends on what it is. Like, I like bright colors,
but if it was like if I wasbuying clothes, I'd probably go
for more opaque colors. So itdepends what the context is,
Pete.

Peter O'Toole (47:57):
Yeah. You see, you said you were a microscopist
earlier on. The answer shouldhave been GFP or Alexa 488 or
rhodamine or DAPI. Absolutely.And you come up with what you
would wear.

Kelly Vere (48:10):
Nothing wrong with that.

Peter O'Toole (48:16):
So where do you see the the the technical skills
and strategy that the instituteis now up and running? Where do
you see what's the next biggestchallenge? What's the big hurdle
to overcome?

Kelly Vere (48:29):
Okay. So I think I'm confident that we can
demonstrate that the commitment,the talent program, all the
institutions that engage withthose have really started to
deliver progress and impact, butwe need to embed some of that
progress and impact more widelyacross the sector. So I guess
some some of the examples I'mthinking of are, the research

(48:51):
technical professional pathwaythat we've seen launch at a
public university here in theUK, so Liverpool, Warwick,
Nottingham are working on thatas well as well as well as a few
others. That's wonderful. Soit's promotional pathway for
technical specialists all theway up to professor of
equivalence.
We've seen institutions here inthe UK get technical specialist
professor of practice titleswhich is you know that I've been

(49:11):
a technician 25 years this yearand you know I never thought I'd
see that in my career. It's beenwonderful to see those pathways
continue to be innovated, but weneed to sort of spread them,
embed them more widely. I guessanother example of impact that
we're really pleased about issome of the work we've been
doing with UKRI, and that isaround, you know, specific

(49:32):
calls, for example, for researchtechnical professionals to apply
for funding. So we've had therecent recent call by EPSRC. We
you do a lot of work with BBSRC,don't you, which is, you know,
incredibly inclusive oftechnical staff now.
But I think there's work to gowith some of the other funders,
so I think there's some work to

Peter O'Toole (49:51):
do there. We actually MRC in there as well.
MRC, you've got

Kelly Vere (49:54):
Absolutely. No. I've been doing some work with MRC
lately as well, and I know AHRC,you know, not forgetting our
technical colleagues in the artsand humanities. They've been
doing some great work as well.So I think there's a lot more to
do, not necessarily with theUKRI funding bodies, but with
some of the other funders to,you know, be truly inclusive of
of technical staff in thatspace.
And I guess a big hurdle for methat's upcoming is, we've had 3

(50:16):
years worth of money toestablish the institute, but I
need to ensure that thisinstitute continues beyond that
printing period. Sosustainability of the institutes
are key thing.

Peter O'Toole (50:25):
What are you, Rane? How is there a sustainable
model where universities put infunds to be members of it or
other institutes pay amembership fee, which in the
current financial climate couldbe really hard? Or do you think
it's gonna have to be going backto the the government and
getting more funding grantfunding for it? I think

Kelly Vere (50:43):
it'll be a mixed funding approach, to be honest,
Pete. I mean, we're still in theearly days of working out what
that's gonna look like, but forexample we have, a research sort
of policy centre here at theinstitute, so you can see there
could be grant funding, therecould be commissioned work, and
there'll be some consultancy. Wehave a number of flagship
leadership courses, which at theminute are free to access, but
further down the line may haveto incur a charge. We we

(51:05):
wouldn't like to do that, but itmight be a way of ensuring that
we can continue to deliver thequality provision for the I
mean, she says a number ofthings being considered.

Peter O'Toole (51:14):
I think it's it's a very good point because, yeah,
thinking about as Liverpool andwhat they've set up and put
through, and credit to all theLiverpool team there. Rolling
that out at other universitiesand trying to recreate the wheel
seems a waste. And, actually, Iwonder if there's a there's a
plot roles we play there thatSaul could go in and actually
help these students to adopt.

Kelly Vere (51:35):
No. There is. There is. We we are launching a new
technical pathways lab here atthe institute, which is exactly
that, supporting institutions toimplement those pathways.

Peter O'Toole (51:45):
So I think that that would be that again
generates the revenue to tooffset it. Of all the
conferences and meetings, what'syour favorite conference?

Kelly Vere (52:00):
My favorite conference? This is a trick
question. Am I supposed to say

Peter O'Toole (52:03):
I'm

Kelly Vere (52:03):
trying to think, oh, what conferences have you
organized people that I've beenat? No.

Peter O'Toole (52:06):
No. No. No. No. No.

Kelly Vere (52:08):
Oh, I I love all it's just wonderful, isn't it? I
love going to meeting peopleand, you know, getting to talk
about the great work the teamare doing and see colleagues. I
don't think I could pick out asingle favorite. I'm very much
looking forward to TSN. We'rehosting the technology network,
specialist network conference,aren't we, in Bath in April?
And I love, as I've alreadymentioned, the Herschel

(52:28):
conference that we have. And, ofcourse, the summit, the higher
education, you know, summit.There's there's a there's too
many to choose from, Peter, thehard question.

Peter O'Toole (52:36):
Okay. So so throughout all of these, and
it's not just the conferences,you also get invited to talk at
lots of different, meetings touniversities, to institutes, at
other meetings that are notnecessarily direct on it. How
much time do you spendtraveling?

Kelly Vere (52:54):
Quite a bit. Quite a bit, and I guess, you know, as
this work takes on anincreasingly international sort
of profile. I'd imagine thatmight ramp up a little bit more,
but I spend quite a lot of timein in London especially with
working with the GatsbyFoundation who've been
tremendous supporter of thiswork, working with the Science

(53:15):
Council and so forth withorganizations like the Royal
Society and the Royal Circuit ofChemistry and the Institute of
Physics. So, yeah, I spent quitea bit of time on trades.

Peter O'Toole (53:25):
And but but also, I imagine there are a lot of
nights in hotels. Mhmm. Andagain, you've got children.

Kelly Vere (53:32):
Mhmm.

Peter O'Toole (53:33):
Do they ever complain?

Kelly Vere (53:36):
No. I think they get it. They get it. I try and
minimize it as much, you know,so it doesn't impact them as
much as I can and actually, I'mgiving, a conference talk in
Sweden in May no. June, sorry,this year, and, actually, my son
will have just finished hisGCSE, so he's coming with me.
He's gonna go. So it's kindanice, you know, that we can do
that sort of stuff together.

Peter O'Toole (53:58):
That would that would be that would be kind of
cool. Take him take him upthere, Sweden. And then he's
gotta listen to you.

Kelly Vere (54:05):
Yeah. He has to just sit quietly at the back.

Peter O'Toole (54:10):
And I think we're nearly up to the hour. I'm gonna
ask, is there anything that youregret? You know, that you go
back and wish if you know, ifyou could go back, would you
change? Any regrets throughoutyour career?

Kelly Vere (54:23):
I don't think regrets are such because I'm not
sort of I'm not really a regretstype of person. I think we
should look forward, notbackward. I guess the one
example we discussed at thebeginning of this conversation
was, you know, I really regretnot working harder for my a
levels, but actually if I hadn'tgot the results that I've got
that probably wouldn't haveinstilled the work ethic that
led me to do all the differentthings. So, no. I'm not really

(54:46):
regretting.

Peter O'Toole (54:46):
I did wonder if you pick out your rate levels.
And, no. I I surely, that wasprobably the best thing that
could have happened.

Kelly Vere (54:56):
It was.

Peter O'Toole (54:57):
Because that's what kicked everything off, and
that that was kind of the, Iguess, the point of
crystallization, wasn't it? Andthat's where everything's
growing from is at with those alevels. How much did you enjoy
your time doing a levels?

Kelly Vere (55:11):
I probably should have spent my time doing the a
levels more than I diddiscovering nightclubs at some
point.

Peter O'Toole (55:18):
So you enjoyed yourself a lot during that. So
I'll ask you what the mostraised a fun time in your
career. It might have been the alevel. But that but but you're
absolutely right not to regretit because look what it's done
and shows what you can do evenif you fail at one point. It's
not fair, but you know what Imean?
Not get to it. That can be theinspiration to go forward. Vera

(55:39):
Richard Grant and got itrejected. That to shake her. The
head saying no.
I know. I know.

Kelly Vere (55:49):
I'm super lucky. I'm super lucky. I'm sure I will at
some point very soon. But, no,I've been incredibly fortunate.

Peter O'Toole (55:58):
I've just submitted one writing another 2.
Can you write my other 2 for me?

Kelly Vere (56:04):
I don't think I'm a lucky charm, Pete.

Peter O'Toole (56:08):
I I think it shows the content. The topic
that you're going for had afairly high degree of novelty at
the time. And I'm not even gonnasay right place, right time
because I don't think the timewas there. I think you created
the right time. I don't thinkpeople were shouting out for it
any louder than they were 10,15, 20, 30, 40 years ago.

(56:31):
But you you made that timepoint.

Kelly Vere (56:34):
That that's really kind. But I think, to be fair,
what also happened was, youknow, all this work sort of
crystallized at a time where,you know, Otterleen came in as
chief exec of UKRI, and andshe'd done a lot of work on
research culture and beinginclusive of all roles and the
ecosystem. You know? So thatchimed well, I think, with the
direction the funding bodies atthe time, but I think it there

(56:56):
was a little bit about it beingthe right time too, but thank
you, Pete. That's

Peter O'Toole (56:59):
I yeah. And and, obviously, was one of my go to's
at York, early in my career andwas very influential. And,
actually, I think choose 1. Andher and Debbie Smith both
encouraged me to write my firstgrant application even though I
was not a classic academic. Andthey said, no.
No. You should lead it. Before,it was front and center that you

(57:21):
can write applications. Theysaid, no. No.
No. Makes sense. And we weresuccessful with that. That's for
a scanning electron microscope,a Joel 6490. You see, I remember
my microscopes.

Kelly Vere (57:33):
I do remember mine, I think.

Peter O'Toole (57:35):
My success rate isn't as good. It's it's it's
it's respect.

Kelly Vere (57:39):
You'll have written a lot more than me, I'm sure.

Peter O'Toole (57:42):
Yeah. But I wish I hadn't. Some of them Some of
them, you know, when you send itoff, sometimes they sing,
sometimes they don't.

Kelly Vere (57:52):
See, that's the way of it though, isn't it? That's
what makes it interesting.

Peter O'Toole (57:55):
It is. But that that is up to the hour. I
haven't even arched you ifyou've got any hobbies. So go,
I'm gonna ask. Finally, in thelast minute, do you have any
hobbies?

Kelly Vere (58:05):
Love theater. Love dinner with friends. Reading,
fine wine. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole (58:14):
As long as it's a New Zealand song you're on log.

Kelly Vere (58:17):
As long as it's a New Zealand song you're on,
we're all good.

Peter O'Toole (58:21):
So I I'm gonna say, thank you to everyone who's
watched or listened, and pleasedo subscribe. And, actually,
Ottaline, does talk abouttechnician's commitment in her
recording, which was a couple ofyears ago. So go back, listen to
those. There's also plenty ofother examples throughout you.
But, Kelly, you've been amassive influence.
Huge influence on so manypeople's careers. And I have

(58:42):
seen, at other universities,people's jobs change and be
recognized for what they'redoing that I don't think would
otherwise have happened if ithasn't been around that that
time point in those movements. Iand so I don't know if you
realize just how big an impactyou're having and will have
going forward. And on behalf ofall the community, thank you

(59:03):
very much, and thank you forjoining the Microscopist today.

Kelly Vere (59:06):
Thanks, Dee. Good to see you.

Intro/Outro (59:08):
Thank you for listening to The Microscopists,
a bite sized bio podcastsponsored by Zeiss Microscopy.
To view all audio and videorecordings from this series,
please visitbitesizebio.comforward/themicrosoftopists.