Louise Cole (Australian Institute for Microbiology and Infection)

Episode Transcript
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VX (00:02):
Welcome to the Microscopists. A bite size bio
podcast hosted by Peter O'Toolesponsored by Zeiss Microscopy.
Today on the Microscopists.

Peter O'Toole (00:14):
Today on the Microscopists. Louise Cole talks
about how it's fungi that got usstarted off on her biology
journey.

Louise Cole (00:21):
I was actually I loved all the mycology, all the
fungal biology with, JohnWebster, who, was the academic
and doing a lot of research.

The tendency of using microscopes less and less
as you become more senior.

I'm very fortunate if I get to sit in a microscope
once a fortnight.

And what it was like for her when she hit the
glass ceiling.

I was at a senior lecturer level, and the and I
was told there wasn't there Ithere wasn't scope for me to go
to associate professor orprofessor, in in my role as a
core facility manager, whereeven though I was successful in

(01:09):
in getting, philanthropic orexternal funding.

All in this episode of The Microscopists.
Hi. I'm Pietro Toole from theUniversity of York, and welcome
to this episode of TheMicroscopist with Louise Cole
from University of Technology inSydney. Good good morning. Good
evening.
Hi, Louise. How are you?

Good evening. Good morning. I'm good. How are you?

I'm good. Thank you. So actually you you're
quite a good guest at it,actually, to have on this for
many reasons. Because you'veobviously gone through an
academic route, moved into theworld of facilities. You're
going on to do a lot of charitywork, with with Australian
microscopy and microanalysis.
So it's quite a lot of ground tocover, and I think it'll be good

(01:54):
for the listeners and viewers toactually hear how that career's
changed, evolved. I thinkthere's actually quite a lot of
evolution we'll talk aboutthroughout today's talk. But
firstly, currently, I I don'tknow the answer to this. How big
is your facility?

How big? In terms that we have 10 microscopes,
optical microscopes, and we haveabout a 175 users a year, and 2
2 staff.

So you've got 10 microscopes, all light
microscopes or semi electronmicroscopes?

Yes. No. All optical. There is a electron
microscope facility and that'sthe microstructural analysis
unit. And that's really focuseson material science.
So not really biological at all.Mhmm.

Okay. Because I from your background, you're
definitely someone who spansboth light and electron
microscopy. And this okay.There's a growing plan market. I
I can think of some very goodexamples of people who do light
and electron microscopy, butthere's not many that span those
two technologies.

No. No. Yeah. My background so I started off as
an electron microscopist, andthat's how I was trained. And,
and and I still have a hugepassion for, electron
microscopy.
And, but in terms of when Istarted working in a core
facility, it was light and laserareas. So and that was at Sydney

(03:27):
Uni in what was then called theelectron microscope unit. But
they they, at the time, theyalso, had a light and laser,
unit with, a multi photon, acouple of confocals, an old MRC
600. That was what I I wasactually using that for my own,

(03:47):
my own sort of postdoc research.And, so so I entered the lights
and laser area, but also I wasinvolved because I I I had an EM
background as well.
I also helped set up the, thecryo EM pipeline with a high

(04:07):
pressure freezer, and the, theAFS free substitution new unit
as well. So I was sort of,helping the, the, biologists
prepare their their samples forEM as well.

This is cryo EM for not for structural biology
type EM, but cryoEM forstructures of cells and

Yeah. And membranes. Yeah. Absolutely.
Yeah.
Because of the artifacts ofchemical fixation, it was
really, so, it was reallyfocusing on on, freezing bigger
bits of tissue and, and, andthen looking at, the
preservation of membranes moreso. So, and, even though I ended

(04:51):
up just managing a corefacility, for, with optical
microscopes, I actually stilllove EM, and find a way to,
either sit on 1 or or, we've setup we've set up a pipeline for
specimen prep for EM, justconventional fix, last year

(05:12):
here, in the facility. Becausewe have, we actually have an we
I we also manage an ultra ultramicrotone, but nobody really
uses it because we don't havethat pipeline set up as,
properly so that, thatbiologists can use it. So they
tend to, go to anotheruniversity or somewhere else, or

(05:32):
they have a colleague that doesthe EM side. Because it's quite
hard to you do need staff to setthat up.
And, and the as I said, the,microstructure analysis unit,
they're used to materialsamples. So they're they don't
really don't know what to dowith biological specimens. But,
so I'm working on that. That'sstill work in progress.

So so we've got the EM and the LM. But,
actually, for the we we've justwe've just lost our TEM thanks
to, minor water.

Oh, no. In ingress.

Well, we didn't actually ingress. It was just,
just colonnaded out inside it aswe over it got overchilled. But,
actually, we're using ourNanoCentre, which is more
materials focused because theyhave some excellent TEMs. So,
actually, for our use, we canprep and take samples there.
We've got for structural biologyit's it's interesting the cryo

(06:24):
EM.
Now if you say cryo EM, mostpeople jump down the structural
biology route rather than thesort of 3 d volume or
preservation of large structuresas a biology classic biologist
would use cryo EM. It's hard toI I I don't worked out the best
way to word it. I I always callstructural cryo EM or cryo sem

(06:46):
or cryo 10.

It's it's not easy. I know.
It's a whole new whole new language. Yeah. And,
yeah, and it's amazing what youcan do now with, with serial
block face SEM. We don't wedon't have one here. There's one
at Sydney Uni.
But in terms of getting yourvolume EM as well, they're
they're pretty amazing. Yeah.

The message is arriving in a month after its
time.

I didn't know that was Yes.

It's a, Zeiss Gemini 460.

Oh fantastic.

Yeah. The team are excited by that one. Anyway,
I presume your first confocalwipescope then. Was that the MRC
600, or did you use one beforethat?

So I did use one, at, Oxygenie, and that was
basically one of the earliermodels of Bio Rad. It wasn't a
commercial. They were buildingthem there when Mark Fricker was
there. And so my previoussupervisor, Chris Hall, has

(07:52):
promised me a confocal. So I wasworking with him, doing a
master's at in plant sciences inSouth South Park Road in Oxford.
And I followed him up up thehill, literally up the hill, up
to Oxford Brookes unitUniversity when he got a
professorship up there. And Ifollowed him up there. And he,

(08:14):
and I ended up doing a PhD withhim. And he promised me a
confocal microscope when I wasso that's why I I came back from
overseas travels to do a PhDwith him. And, and the day I
submitted my PhD, he willed hisconfocal in.
So never quite forgiven him

(08:34):
for that. So because it took
him a while to get funding for the confocal, of
course.
Yeah. And
he as ICE confocal. So, yeah. So I've never, yeah,
so the very first one that Iused spent quite a bit of time
on was the MRC 600.

So you actually sent a picture of Chris.

Oh, I just Yeah.

Quite tired of it as well. So I I was I take it he
was visiting you or you visitinghim at this point?

That's that's his cottage. I'm just outside
Alstwick. So, and that was thetime, that was the botanical
microscopy meeting. That was Icame back for FOM in London. So,
and, yeah.
And then and, went to thebotanical, microscopy meeting

(09:24):
for a bit and then spent sometime with him as well. And he,
he was really retiring at thatstage. So, stood in the same
cottage with his partner, Kaye,and their huge Newfoundland dog.
So, so it's always lovely to goit's always lovely to go and
visit him.

And you know, because actually one of my
staff, Claire Steele King, wasalso a graduate out of Chris'
lab. So he's

Absolutely.

And there's there's a few others, to Chris's
lab. We keep bumping into, oh,yes. Chris. So he's And every
year was huge.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it was
the, the good, curry parties,and maybe the jam donuts for
birthdays. I it was a fun placeto work.
And he's amazing, amazingsupervisor who was more like a a
a brother really than, yeah. Soyeah. So I still, yeah, I still,

(10:20):
I'm still very much inspired byhim. He used to come once a week
into the into the lab, and hewould put his hands on my
shoulders and say, you know,what's new? He So, and so I
remember I remember that quitevividly.
So I'd I would want to, get somedata to show him from 1 week to

(10:40):
the next. So, yeah. Because hewas so, so, so lovely. But if he
ever tried to do an experimenthimself, everyone just sort of
ran a mile because he was crazyin the lab. You know, when you
don't you haven't doneexperiments for years?
I'd be the same now, and you'dgo back, and you'd want to do do
some fixation or something likethat. So then it would be, yeah.

(11:04):
It would you don't wouldn't wanthim contaminating any of our our
buffers or anything like that.So that's quite funny.

He was, yeah. And Chris was obviously a big
influence of the role ofStockton Society as well. And I
don't know if you had much didyou have much involvement with
the RMS back then when you werein the UK?

So we did a lot actually, because he he would
often go down the hill to theoffice, the RMS office. Mhmm.
And I tag along. So, I mean, itwas like, you know, one of I
mean, this might sound a bitodd, but I one of Chris's, you
know, girls. We were very happyto go along and help.
So,

(11:45):
and
and because we host he we hosted the botanical
microscopy meeting as well. Thatwas I think that was the 5th
one, mid nineties. We, you know,we were all involved in
organizing that conference. Ihad to design a little badge,
for the RMS and and also the tshirt for the 5th botanical

(12:06):
microscopy. I think I sent you aphoto of that.
I was modeling. Yeah.
That's what

it is. I I have no idea what the picture was of.
It just said RMS poster girl. Ithought I have no idea.

Yeah. I know. So that was I designed that for the
RMS, and it's a picture ofRobert Hook's net it's a a
nettle I think it's the leaftrichomes of a nettle leaf. And
he got me to, design the tshirts and model the t shirt.
And some people still have theirt shirt from that was the mid

(12:39):
nineties.

Have you still got yours?

No. Unfortunately.
Yeah. You

got rid of it now. You got rid of it?

No. I do regret getting rid of it. I don't know
where. I mean, it might be at mymy parents' house. I don't know.
Because I, yeah, I don'tnormally throw things out. But
that was, yeah, how involved wewere with the RMS at the time.
We were more than happy to helpand, and be involved. And we
used to go out to the meetingsin London all the time. Though,
I don't know if you still havethe one day meetings in London

(13:11):
anymore.

No. No. No. You guys it's and the RMS events
revolve quite a lot. Is itthat's the environment and
everything else.

But they're much bigger. Yes.

So there's different meetings. They're
generally 2 day meetings. Notall exclusively. There are some
ad hoc meetings as well, but theFrontier Bio Imaging, I guess,
now has replaced the lightmicroscopy and life science
meetings. So you've got FrontierBio Imaging that come forward.
And then you've got the big,MMC's micro science now Micro
Science Microscopy Congress,which is now so much bigger.

Yeah. That's a great conference. Yeah. I am.
Yeah.

Encompassing for all the different science
disciplines, life science, allthe different life sciences
including the plants,microbiology, through to the
material side.

Yeah. It's amazing, isn't it? Because they were a
one day meeting. All those many,many, many moons ago. And Chris
would get a bit annoyed becausewe'd we'd missed the very last,
couple of lectures because we'dwe'd go off to the National
Gallery to try and get someartistic, you know, influence.

(14:16):
And we'd be back. We'd be back,but we would just have a little
side visit. Feeling moreinspired and energized from a
little diversion.

That's why you always went disappearing. So you
said that, that you never throwanything away. Does that mean
you're a hoarder?

No. I I don't I was going to say I don't tend to,
certainly, don't throw anymicroscopes away or microscope
parts away. So you never knowwhen you might need them for
something. But maybe I'm I'mmore selective at, you know,
what I what I what I purchase.And hopefully, I look after it

(14:58):
well so that it pass the test oftime.
Have you got

a big puppet with lots of parts of microscopes?

I do. I have still bits of microscopes on the floor
around. Everybody seems to giveyou them though, don't they?
Because they just assume thatyou need them. And I do say no
now to to some microscopes thatsome little bench top ones
because, we don't have the needfor those.
We are in, like, an advancedmicroscopy facilities that we
can't. Yeah. So but you neverknow. What about you?

Not so big. We used to keep bits, but I I think
we we've started to run out ofspaces. A lot of grew and grew
and grew, and so then we have toget harder. And we realized
that, actually, for the userbase, they don't need sort of 10
50 fifties. We need to make sureeverything's properly serviced,
everything else.
So, generally, we're pretty goodat moving things on. We do keep

(15:56):
some parts, obviously, but we'vedonated we've donated our LSM
780 to Yobe State University,some Mahmood, Maynard, by our
TCI, our TCI over there, withalmost bare parts of another
system. So we've shredded 1system in case ours broke
because it wasn't supportedfully anymore. Then we got a

(16:18):
replacement, so we donated thatwith the spare parts, which is
just as well because the laser'sjust on the blink and they have
a whole spare laser. But indefense of size, we also are
size.
And they said, oh, we we'reremoving 1 at the moment. We'll
send you that laser as well. Andthen Fantastic. Then my mood is

(16:38):
actually carrying that. Sothey've got another laser now.
So it's really good. And but theother systems we quite often
actually, through Claire SteeleKing, did a lot of the
initiation or drove forward. Wewe sell quite a lot of stuff
onto Uni Green. Okay. So theythey take the equipment and then
sell it on to it's like asecondhand or a swatch shop.

(16:59):
And, actually, oh gosh. Stewartat work, New Academic, has just
bought 2 stunning microscopesThe hideously low prices. Really
good top dollar microscope. Soactually so now we're
encouraging everyone to sellmore to Uni Green and to buy
from Uni Green to make sure it'scompletely cyclic. And so

(17:19):
actually, we don't need to heatthe parts, because we know we
can go to Unigreens to get spareparts should we run out of them.

Fantastic. I think I'm I need to look into that.

Definitely so too. Yeah. Do have a consider.
So your facility so we talkedabout the facility, the first
light microscope. That to takeyou back even further, when you
were a child, what was the firstjob that you can remember
wanting to do?

I think I know I wanted to travel. Mhmm. So, so I
did. I might be ashamed to admitthis. I did want to be an air
hostess because I'm that was mygateway to seeing the world.
So wasn't thinking aboutlearning different languages. I
was just thinking about how canI get on that plane? So that I

(18:13):
know that was I know that wasone of the first jobs that I
wanted to do. I don't think Itook it any seriously sort of
after that, but that was, yeah.I just think I just it's I just
want wanted to see see theworld, and, actually, I still
want to see the world.
Mhmm. Do you do you British to start with? Yes. Yes.

I am.

I am. I'm still British. Yes. I'm a I'm a
permanent resident here, but,you might sound you might hear a
Aussie accent. So There's

an Aussie trang in there.

That's for sure. But I but I think that's the
Bristolian in me. I think that'sbecause I'm from the southwest
of England, and, Bristolianshave that intonation that they
they go up at the end of theirsentences.

Okay.

So which is what Australians do. But, so I go
back to obviously, I went backto England recently. And
everybody there, mostly most ofthem said that no. They couldn't
hear the Australian, but thennow other people can. And then
when I speak to Australianshere, they they they just say
I'm very English.
So I don't mind. I used to say Iused to say that, that when my

(19:24):
my eldest when my eldest, whenhe if when he lost his British
accent well, because he startedeven though he was born in
Australia, he because he wasobviously imitating our accent,
so my husband's English as well.So he sounded quite English. And
so I thought as soon as hestarts sounding Australian, we

(19:46):
were gonna pack our bags, andleave. But we're we're still
here 27 years later.
So

We are Aussie born, Aussie bred.

Yes. Yes. But they they they also have British
passports, so they're very, veryhappy to be British as well. So
it's it gives them that freedom.

You sent some pictures, so I presume that he's
they're they're they're slightlyand they're partners, I presume?

Absolutely. So my husband, is there, on on your on
your right. That was his 60thbirthday last October. And I'm
obviously the one with the redshirt. So the Finnegan is in the
in the middle.
So he's my eldest, and that'shis partner, Nanny. And and
then, so Rowan, and, is my mysecond son. And Angelina is his

(20:36):
partner as well. So, actually,we're going for dinner. We're
going it's the family dinner.
It's the family dinner seasonnow because it's, we have
birthdays in August, September,October, November. So we all go
out for a family dinner, and itstarts tomorrow night.

It starts tomorrow night, did you say?

Starts tomorrow night. Yeah.

Okay. What sort of food are you going for?

So tomorrow, we're going for Australian with a
French twist.
Okay. I'll

take your word for that.

Yep.
I'm trying to think

what that could be. Snails on barbecue. I don't
know.

I think it's, so it's more French with an
Australian twist, I think. I I'mfrom the menu. I haven't been
there before. So it is, a coupleof, up and coming, French chefs
who, have got quite a big reputegrowing reputation. And they've
taken over a pub, and they'veturned it from a gastro pub into

(21:38):
a nice restaurant.
So, and when it's your when it'syour birthday, it's nice to go
for something a bit more finedining. So it's they have
focused more on, usingAustralian bush foods. So
Australian, so lemon myrtle,and, so different yeah. So more

(21:59):
Australian herbs and and spicesto a French dish, I think. But I
I won't know until tomorrow.

You book as well, I believe. Because you also sent
a load of photos of

I did. I'm so pictures. Yeah. Absolutely. If
you look through my phone, it'seither pictures of microscopes
or, or food that I've baked.
So I am a keen baker, but that'sbecause I don't do experiments
anymore. I love to follow Iactually follow recipes. And I
have I actually have over over a100 cookbooks. And I have called

(22:37):
them recent. That was I I know.
I have called them. I'm quiteeasy to buy for as a present, so
long as you don't buy the samecook book that I've already got.
So I do love, having people overfor dinner. So that's where I
relax, really. I could Saturday,I could spend all day cooking.
The only thing is everyone's ondiet, so I'm not doing it less

(23:01):
and less now. And the bigger theshowstopper dish, the better.

So what was your signature dish?

So I think well, there's the ragu behind you,
right behind you. Yeah. Yep. Andthen the bottom left hand
corner, that's easy. That's, Ialways do a ragu, a butter
chicken.
For the veggies, I do, there'sthe falafel, eggplant, Parmesan.
And at at the moment, it'sbecause it's winter, it's just a

(23:33):
bed a veggie tray bake, youknow, with about 10 veg. It's
the easiest thing that I that Icook. So, so I do have a bit of
a reputation. All my friends dolike, you know, to come around.
We're not really allowed to goout for dinner. I I have to
cook, but, but time, you know,obviously, sometimes I just
don't have the time. Because Ido have to take at least, I have

(23:53):
to take the day off before toprepare, unless it's on the
weekend. It's a foot but andalso, I have to prepare the
table as well. You know, 2papercloths, crystal, very
grand.
So am I the 100% in or not atall?

Okay. And you also do cakes, I presume?

No. That is a that's a, that's actually a one
of what I would call ashowstopper. That's, a, Iranian
dish called a tachin tachintachin. I don't know if I'm
sorry if if I pronounced that.Yeah.
It's a tachin tachin, whichmeans, I think, tachin. So it's,

(24:34):
it's so it's inverted. So youit's it's rice, which is baked
with saffron, and it's got eggand yogurt, which lines the
dish. And then you fill the thewell. So you make like a trough,
and then you put in themincemeat, and that's
cranberries.
So it's like a Persian dish. Andthen, you cook it, and then you
flip it out. So, yeah. So and,and it freezes really well. So I

(25:01):
had to freeze half of thatbecause I doubled the recipe and
it was huge.

People just not like it and that's why you had
so much I'm joking.

They would tell me. They would tell me.

I'm joking. So so is it so should we go back to as
a child, when you wanted to bean s a stewardess?

I know.

So so what got you into science?

So
at school, I was very good at maths and, and I
loved, I love biology. And I,and, but I I wasn't sure what I
I really didn't know what Iwanted to do, and, or study at a
level. So and I remember aparent's evening, and I was just

(25:51):
copying my friend who who wantedto do business studies. Because
I really didn't have didn't knowwhat I wanted to do. And I
think, so that was really apivotal time because the biology
teacher said to my parents,she's good at biology.
She should do biology. And Iwent, alright then. So, yeah,
the rest is history. But I I didso I did biology, and maths and

(26:15):
chemistry, at at a level. And Idid I loved biology, but I
didn't like, dissecting the ratat all.
So I, and I loved all theplants. So I, so I ended up
studying botany at ExeterUniversity, carrying on working

(26:39):
in plants. So I stayed in plantsfor quite a while.

And then over to Oxford for your PhD at that
point or masters or PhD?

As I did masters first of all, because so when I
finished uni, I was actually Iloved all the mycology, all the
fungal biology with, JohnWebster, who, was the academic
and doing a lot of research. Hewrote a book on fungal biology.
And I and that's where I gotreally became interested in

(27:07):
microscopy because obviouslythere were microscopes in in, in
the course that we could use forthe practicals. And I would, I
was fascinated and I wouldalways so I met my husband at
university. He was studyingmathematics and he I always
would spend the night before thepractical reading up on

(27:27):
everything so that I could spendas much time enjoying the
microscopy.
So he didn't like the fact thatI prepared for the practical the
day before. So, so I was offereda PhD by John Webster when I
finished, my undergraduate,studying aquatic hyphomyces,

(27:47):
which are the fungi that live onthe foam of rivers. So, which of
course we all know about and weknow how I mean, they are
important, but I decided that Ineeded a bit of a break. So, so
I turned down that PhD to, and,and then took some time off and
then applied for a researchassistant position working with

(28:11):
Chris Horst on an endocytosisimplants at Oxford Uni. So
that's where my endocytosis, andmicroscopy journey really began.
So so Chris, was, a Zeiss snob,really, in terms of and I think
that, you know, that's a veryfond way of of saying that he

(28:32):
would he loves Zeiss microscopesand he would only buy sort of a
Zeiss microscope. So my firstZeiss, first microscope that I
I, for my master's was, was a,an axio phot. An axio phot or
axio foe? What how do you asZeiss.

A phospho photobatable.

Yes. I say part too. So that was where so that I
used that for, my, fluorescencemicroscopy of, looking at the
uptake of of, elusive yellow orfluorescent dextrans as markers
for endocytosis in plants. Soand as well as the EM. But I did
more EM than than light at thetime.

I think so. Okay. So what what was your first EM?

So that was a JOL. I can't remember the number, but
that was a JOL. Yeah. So so aJoel. So and that that was that
was a 10.
Yeah. So Mhmm. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm gonna say because this may have been a
ZEISS snob, but, actually, likeI said, we've got a lot of ZEISS
products. But our our TEM was aThermo, and our SEM was a Joel.
And we've had other truckingsystems as well. So, actually,
we do we do deviate.
Know, it's very much

Oh, no. No. I I I
think exactly. Oh, I think Chris was very, he was
very happy to admit that.Anyway, so, you know, everyone
has their has their favorites,as well. And so, and I think
he's he's always had, a goodrelationship with with the

(30:11):
company too. So, but, I mean,I'm, people have favorite cars.

Oh, yeah. Actually, we do have the same
brand quite often. I wouldn'tsell the biggest, but we like
the cars. There's just goodvalue. But there you are.
Absolutely. I had all the moneyin the world. Might not be what
I had. I might change from whatI've got on the drive train.

True. True.

So that got you into the microscopy side, and
you were through. So why I Iguess because you're a lover of
travel, but is that what enticedyou to Sydney?

So,
so I attended a conference in Vancouver, and oh,
here was my

Well, Louise's lights in her office have just
popped off because of a longtime, and she's obviously not
moving around enough.

No. No. Of course. So, yes. So yeah.
So there was, a conference inVancouver, Canada that I, wanted
to go to, and that was theInternational Mycological con
Congress in British Columbia.And I again, so going back to
Chris, I remember that, he hewould not, as a supervisor, did

(31:30):
not want to didn't have themoney. Well, he said he didn't
have the money for me to pay forme to go. So I said, okay.
That's alright.
I'm gonna go anyway because Ireally, really wanted to go. And
I hadn't been to that part ofthe world, this beautiful part
of the world, Vancouver. So, butI called that call I called his
bluff bluff because he said,okay. I'll pay for you, but he
didn't want me to go with my ownmoney. So I met, Anne Ashford, a

(31:55):
who, and Bill her partner, BillAlloway.
And they were working on thepleomorphic vacuoles in a
eucalypt mycorrhizal fungus. Andthey were, so they have these
amazing tubular vacuoles, whichwere responsible for long
distance transport. And at thetime when I was looking at

(32:15):
endocytosis, because we, inplants, I was using a drug
called Provenecid, which is usedto treat gout. And, and that
perturbs the anionic transportsystem. So, and what what I
found at the time with plantcells, that a lot of the probes,
the fluorescent dextrans, theyweren't they had free

(32:39):
fluorescein.
So you would get, prematureuptake of the fluoro4 instead of
the fluorescent dextran. So itwasn't a great marker for
endocytosis, you know, becausethe dextran part is 70 k. So I,
so I was the 1st person topublish this data on Probenecid
and how, how it affects theanion transport system. And she

(33:01):
was interested in the, so andshe was interested in, applying
a similar approach in fungalhyphae. So I hadn't quite
finished my PhD.
I had another year. Sorry. Andso, yeah, I had another year or
so to go. And, but she was soshe wanted me to do the same

(33:22):
experiments on the fungalhyphae. And, so she offered me,
a post doc and waited for me tofinish.
Oh, that's
so mean. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah.
Yeah. So that's that has actually happened quite
a bit in my career trajectorythat I have happened to be in

(33:44):
the right place or, where I'vebeen offered a position. So I've
sort of I didn't map it out.I've just been really fortunate
to be connected, or or, it'sjust yeah. It's more of a timing
and having that communicationand thinking I'm ready to go or

(34:06):
so and that's sort of what'shappened.
Or I found a really good lab,and I've waited for them to get
money and say, I've told themI'm interested and let me know.
And yeah. So, so I came out toAustralia in 96 with my so my

(34:26):
husband was offered a job inTokyo, and I was offered a job
in Sydney. And I said to him,well, I'm going to Sydney. We'd
been to Sydney for 4 days, onour honeymoon.
We'd had sort of done a roundthe world trip. And, so we knew
we liked Sydney. So, so I saidand it you know, in hindsight, I

(34:48):
don't think I think my myoptions for work in in Tokyo
probably then would have beenquite quite different. So, so my
husband was fine with it. So Ihad finished my I had submitted
my PhD and within a month, we'dmoved to Australia Sydney,
Australia.
And the idea was because it wasa 3 year post op position. So

(35:11):
the idea, so we thought we'dstay for 3 years, stay for the
Olympics in 2000, then go backto the UK. So I'm now 28 years
into my 3 year plan.

And will you ever come back to the UK, or do you
think that's it now you'reyou're staying?

I think the we we've always planned to come
back at some stage. We knowthat. So at the moment, my
youngest is, he's going to turn21 this year. He's got 2 more
years of uni. So, the reason togo back is to be closer to
family.
So, and but I'm not sure I couldcope with the weather.

(35:53):
It's rather high that here.

Will your boys come back to the UK?

I think they would like to work in the UK or live
in the UK for short periods oftime. They do love Australia. So
they they do talk about, goingto the UK, whether whether they
will will will just go back tothe UK and and stay, I'm not so
sure. Again, I think they theylike the weather here.

That's tough. You think you're coming back to be
close to family, but then ifthey move back to Australia?

I know. I know. But I think we're more likely to go
back before they do.

Okay. So you may come back for a short period and
then hop back to Australia.

Yes. Exactly. Depending on what they want to
do. But at the moment, so we wehave a few more a few more
years. So but I have I I pickedup this, saying from a friend of
mine who, who her parents saidto her, 24 and out the door,

(36:59):
which is, that's when you haveto leave home when you're 24.
So I said that a few years agoto my eldest and he moved out
when he with his girlfriend whenhe was 24. So my 20 year old son
is knows he's got a few moreyears yet. And he's got he's
got, like, a basement. He's got,like, a man cave, like, almost a
granny flat. So he's verycomfortable.

(37:22):
And and the cost of living isthe cost of living crisis here
in in Sydney is crazy.

Yeah. Okay. It'll be interesting to see how that
pans out in a few years' time.So think of it, so you've got
into work in a postdoc inAustralia. So you've done the
PhD, you've done a postdoccareer, but then you moved into
facilities at that point?

Yes. Yeah. I loved being a postdoc. I thought I I
honestly thought I was going tobe an eternal postdoc. I also
thought that I did want my ownlab, my own research lab at one
stage.
But, the it was very difficultto get funding, on in that area

(38:11):
of of plant well, plant cellbiology. I didn't really have my
own research areas, researchfocus. I did try a couple of
times, to try and get somefellowships. So, I when my
second child, was born, that'swhen I decided I needed to do
because we don't have any familysupport here in in Australia. So

(38:34):
I decided to do, what a more 9to 5 job, which wasn't, of
course.
It's just it wasn't a 9 to 5job. So that's when I took over
as light laser optics manager atthe electron microscope unit in,
the University of Sydney. Sothat's when I went into, yeah,
managing, that part, that, thelight and optical. So I was

(38:58):
there for for 2 years, but I andI had a 100 I was involved in a
100 research projects, across.And so it was very, very busy.
So, and and then I was offered aposition at the what's called
the Bosch Institute what wascalled the Bosch Institute at
the time in the, the the Schoolof Anatomy and Histology, at the

(39:23):
University of Sydney to run theadvanced microscopy facility in
the Bosch Institute. Now theBosch Institute was was a was a
virtual institute. It, so it wasthe research arm of the School
of Medical Sciences. So, so acolleague of mine at, who who

(39:45):
managed the micro CT at the EMUbasically said, I think this
position would be great for you.And, so yeah.
So I was invited to apply, andthen I moved there. And I was
there from for 11 years. And I Ireally was I really built it
from the ground up, and that'swhere, and that's I still

(40:05):
remember where I was when Irealized I'm not gonna have my
own research group. I realizedthat, that I but I enjoyed
learning about other people'sprojects, other people's
science, scientific area thatthey're researching. And, and I
still learn every day from beingable to being being involved in

(40:28):
those different projects, andtraining the next generation of
microscopes.

Hands on are you now?

I, not very hands on. So although because there's
only 2 of us, we do have theduty microscopy scheme. So there
are 2 days a week when I'm onduty where they are allowed to
ring me, and I will go in andsit with them at the microscope.
Mhmm. So we do have that.

(40:58):
I, I'm very fortunate if I getto sit at a microscope once a
fortnight. But, and, and when Ileft the Bosch Institute, I
actually said to, the the COO atthe time, I said, I need a t
shirt to say a good day is a dayat the microscope. So because

(41:19):
that's where I'm really I'mhappiest. So but I I don't get
much time at the microscopeanymore with everything else.

You want more?

Yes. I do. I do. I I really enjoy it. So so when
because there's only 2 of usmanaging the facility, if, aim
so Amy Bottom Bottomley, she'sthe imaging scientist that
supports so I'm the facilitymanager and the director.
So I have I have 2 jobs. And sowhen she's away, then I get to

(41:54):
do her job as well. So then Ihave 3 jobs. And that's when I
get to sit at the microscopewith the user. So I will do
training if if, if I can.

So you've got 2 jobs, 3rd job, but we haven't
touched you are now president,hello fellow president, of the
Australian MicrosphereMicroanalysis Society, which you
sent another picture of

Yes. NEST.

I don't know what the award is at the top of my
shoulder.

That's the David Cocaine award. Who was, the
previous, director of, the EMU,at Sydney Uni. So, yes. So we
have a number of awards withinthe society for either for, for
research or or service orspecial awards for contributions

Mhmm.

To the advancement of of microscopy. So and, yeah.
So Nestor was awarded that, soin in in Perth at our last, big
national meeting. So

Yeah. How how do you find the time to do that?
And your other 3 jobs?

So usually we get weekends. Usually weekends is
when my, when I put my AMS haton and and and do those those
duties. So but I really do enjoyit. So the Australian Microscopy
and Microanalysis Society is ityou know, it's a wonderful
community. So the one of the reI was president of the Light

(43:29):
Microscopy Australia before I II I became the the AMS
president.
And I think and I, so I'm and Iwanted to do it because I really
was missing the EM side as well.So because the light microscopy
Australia is a special interestgroup under the parent
organization of of theAustralian Microanalysis

(43:52):
Society. We have other specialinterest groups as well. So,
and, yeah. No.
Well, it's a wonderfulcommunity. So, you know, I do I
do have to, you know, you haveto obviously chair all the
meetings as you as you know.But, it's, yeah. I mean, it it's

(44:13):
where you can really, you know,work at the the coalface and try
and and try and make adifference and, and inspire
others. So so, so I I think I'llbe doing that for another couple
of years anyway.

I do notice over your one shoulder what looks
like another meth certificate.

It is. It is. So yeah. So I have a certificate of
fellowship from because I wasinvolved with the RMS from many
years ago. So, so I yeah.
So well spotted. I did blur it.I did wonder whether you'd score

the RMS logo is good for me. Even my eyesight,
you can see that a mile off.

A bit Yeah. So

crystal clear.

Yeah. So when I was with Chris, yeah, he he
recommended that I that, that Iapply for that. So yeah. So I've
got it very proudly there. Andactually, I've decided my
initial the initials, to myLinkedIn page as well.

So we

we should do we should do something similar, for
for AMS as well.

Yeah. And it's quite good to actually I I know
we've been talking outside ofthis about some of the joint
collaborations for the RMS.Because the RMS is there to
support internationally as welland some of the things we can do
in common. So instead ofduplicating efforts, even if
it's copying what you're doing,but instead of copying, taking
the materials, rolling them out,and we're talking to Laby, as

(45:36):
well around those Latin Americanbiometrics. So I think it's
nice.
I think we're all getting morecollaborative now. I think there
was a time where actually peoplebecame more insular, and I think
it's now becoming far morecollegiate throughout the
different communities. And longmay that continue and develop

(45:57):
Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah.

And and grow through. Throughout your career,
when would you say was the thethe best time in your career? If
you could relive a moment inyour career, what moment would
it be?

I think, when I was doing my PhD, the last the last
year or so, when when all thedata you know, when when all the
results are sort of comingtogether. And, and then Claire
was part of that as well. SoClaire will remember exactly
what that was like. So we had soI was part of a very big group,

(46:33):
but a very big family. And I haddone enough research in that
area that I, was really quiteacross the, that just the
research progress and theknowledge in that field.
So, so I sort of I don't know. Imean, I actually felt quite in

(46:53):
invincible, you know? So at thetime, because things seem to I
remember from my very lastchapter, I don't know if you
ever met Beatrice Satish orMitra. She's a Golgi person who,
so she managed a core facilityin Giraffe. Sorry, this is I
apologize to any French speakingperson for my pronunciation.

(47:16):
Just outside Paris. So shemanaged a core facility there
for many, many years after, soshe was working with Chris Halls
at the time. So, and her herpartner, had a wine business. So
she would come with champagne ona Friday as well. So we knew how
to, we knew how to work hard,but we knew how to enjoy

(47:40):
ourselves at the same time.
So they were that was reallygood fun. And I think that's
when I thought that I wantedjust to be a post doc for the
rest of my life because that wasfun. Because you didn't have a
thesis to to write after that aswell. So, I mean, obviously, I
did with my PhD. But, yeah.

Maybe the best times on the side? What would
you say is the most challengingor most difficult time of your
careers today?

So I think I think that's when I I had actually had
hit that glass ceiling. And so Iwas working at, so I sort of
come to the end of, my time atthe at the Bosch Institute. So

(48:28):
and this sort of relates torecognition of core facility
staff globally because I, so inthat role, I I was an academic.
So and I don't know how thelevels compare in Australia, to
to Europe. But, I was at asenior lecturer level.

(48:54):
And the and I was told therewasn't there I there wasn't
scope for me to go to associateprofessor or professor, in in my
role as a core facility manager.Where even though I was
successful in in getting,philanthropic or external
funding, internal funding,publishing papers. So I think

(49:19):
that was I was very unhappy fora couple of years, in that in
that role because, yeah, I wastold that I could and that still
happens here. I'm not sure whatit's like in Europe. And, so the
only way to get some careerprogression and I still hear it
today because because that, wasfor me to to change and move

(49:42):
universities.
And then I went went intoassociate professor role.

So it's not really necessarily an Australian
economy. It was a instituteproblem, probably more than an
Australian problem.

Yes. Yeah. And it's and I think it was the
recognition of then even thoughit's understanding the roles of
core facility staff, and, youknow, and and and I had an
academic position, though. Icould sort of, so because we
have the academic level, andthen we have the the technical

(50:15):
technical staff. So there's 2streams here.
So and they are very differentthe way that you go for
promotion.

Well, and, I'd say, the UK is is pushing ahead,
progressing quite well, but it'sstill patchy. You know, it's far
from perfect. I'm not sure anysystem's ever perfect for
anyone. But it there there aresome good examples. York York,
we're very fortunate.
Always have been very fortunate,but other universities like
Liverpool, Warwick, Nottinghamare really pushing ahead.
Newcastle, actually a very goodhighlight, are really pushing

(50:44):
ahead in these areas as well inthe UK, as well as others. But
but, yes, it's still patchy, Iwould say, at that point. So
outside of work, so you got thatceiling. You have difficult
periods.
You mentioned before we started,you've got a microscope that's
down at the moment anddistressed. What do you do
outside of work to de stress? Iknow this sounds like you sent

(51:05):
me some pictures, but go on.

I did. So, I have to go to the gym in the morning
just like you do.
I think you're

a gym junkie, I think you called it.

I am. I have yeah. But, I didn't really, I was
never really in a gym beforebefore I came to UTS. So when I
moved from Sydney Uni to UTS, Iwas really excited because
because, so again, this wasCynthia Whitchurch. So I joined
the gym with her, which was f45.

(51:38):
I don't know if you have thosein the in the

No. I don't know.

Oh, anyway, you don't need to know. And, I
joined a coffee club, and aWhatsApp group. So it was it was
something that that I didn'thave, in my role at Sydney Uni.
And I think I cried the veryfirst day I went to the gym. I
think I was trying to benchpress 3 kilos.

(52:04):
And they got me to jump on abox. And I only about a foot
high, but I was too afraid tojump on a box. And, but it
didn't take long. So now I goevery morning, and it really is
my I'm the first out of thehouse in the morning. And, and
it just really helps me, sortof, center myself.

(52:25):
So it might be it might be astrength class, a cardio or,
yoga or Pilates. So I can't livewithout it now. So, yeah. And
that's Nancy who was my mypersonal trainer. She she always
gives me heavier heavier weightsevery time she sees me, which
I'm not really happy about.

The the info sent. Which I had to put

on? Yes.

Position you've called the microscope because
you've just inverted yourself tolook like an upright microscope.

It's either I Exactly.

Inverted yourself to look like an upright, but
there you are.

Yes. The inverted microscope. So, so I am actually
so that's on my my balcony, athome. And, and I'm training to
do, some handstands. So gettingused to being inverted.

Mhmm.

So, I haven't quite been able to achieve it without
the without the training supportat the moment. But, yes. To to
be upside down for a while is isis, it's, yeah, very, very good
for the blood flow.

It's actually if if anyone's listening, at this
moment, we are I don't know howmany minutes into it. 50 minutes
in roughly. It's worth justskipping to that bit to see the
picture of the invertedmicroscopy. It's looking like an
upright. But I like the fact youalso said in the other picture,
and this wasn't the title of it,but you've also done the
immersion lens,

which was Oh,
yes. Water immersion. Yes. And that's in
the same same gym. I mean, I'm Iwill try anything anything once.
So, yeah. So that's 2 minutes. 2minutes ice bath. So, which was
it's great. It is.
But you do but I did 30 minutesbreath work before I went in

(54:17):
there, which, so so you'realready really, really calm and
you know how to to to breathedeeply. So, I recommend it to
anybody to try at least at leastonce. Well, it's cold enough
there. You just have to swim inthe ocean, don't you?

I don't do that. I've just come back off holiday
where the sea temperature is 31.It's just about okay. My my
swimming pool, it's 28. Anycolder, I complain.

No. It was, invigorating. Yes. Highly
recommend it.

And you also, Van, I presume. This is your

yes. Yeah. So we're very lucky in Sydney because
it's, amazing. That's theHarbour Bridge, and that's, just
behind the Opera House as well.So I think anyone would run.
So that's on a Saturday morning.If you you forget you're
running, actually, you're downthere. You forget you're running
10 k, and let your legs hurtbecause, there's also a seal, a

(55:16):
resident seal just over theother side of that fence that
you that you get to see a a sealbasking on the steps. So, yeah.
Highly recommended.

Yeah. I remember we stayed in Sydney, but south
of the city, and it was veryvery friendly running actually.
I found out. Everyone saidhello. And that's not always the
case.
You look pretty good when you gorunning. Most people will say
hello, good morning. When I ranin Sydney, everyone was really
friendly. It's not that's rarelythe case in most cities.

I I thought that I
I think that applies to, to to just the
Australian way as well. And Ireally found that when I first
arrived. It's it's quite strangewhen you're in the supermarket,
you know, just just buying yoursupper, and they say, well,
how's your day? And they reallywant to know how your day is.
And they'll be there.

(56:06):
There'll be a queue of peoplebehind you, but they really
wanna know how your day is,which which wasn't a very when I
you know, it wasn't the sort ofthing that you would respond to
in in England necessarily. Youthink, why are they asking me
about my day? I'm not gonna tellyou about
at the very friendly Yeah.

In the UK, people would say, you know, all good.
How are you? And they don't meanthey don't want an answer. No.

They do they do though in Australia.
And it's really They don't

do fine. I do this. Right. I'll get some quick
fire questions.

Oh, goodness me.

The first one, are you an early bird or night
owl?

Well, early bird now. Although, I do I'm not very
I do go to bed quite late aswell, so I don't get a huge
amount of sleep. So I I I goboth ways, but I have to get up
early if I wanna go to the gym.

Kinstry or Mac?

Mac.

McDonald's or Burger King?

Oh, neither
of the What's your favorite category? We don't have
Burger King. We don't haveBurger King.

What's the baby

cake anyway? We don't have Burger we don't have
Burger King here. We have HungryJack.

Okay. McDonald's or Hungry Jack's?

I'll say Hungry Jack's.

Okay. Australia or UK?

Oh, no. Oh, that's really hard. That's a hard one.
I have to say UK.

Okay. Yeah. There will be Australians listening to
this. This is probably our 3rddemographic. Tea or coffee?

Coffee. 100%.

0 one.

Or tequila. Mhmm. Margarita is my middle name, so
has to be tequila.

Chocolate or cheese?

Cheese.

Okay. Is it from microscope or light microscope?

Oh, goodness me. I'm going to say electron.
Oh. Can't you I know. I know.

If you consider what your job is, then my
goodness say you you I know.You're working in Australia with
light microscopes, and you justsaid you prefer the UK and
electron microscopes. You'vejust lost your residency. Anyway

I hope not.

Eat in or eat out?

Oh, eat in.

And I I I know the answer to this. Cook or
clean?

Oh, yes. Definitely cook.

What and what's your favorite food? And so we
know your signature dish, yourgoose. But what's your fave what
is your favorite food to eat?

So I'm vegetarian. So I cook meat for my for for
for my family. So any any anyvegetable. Any vegetable. I
can't.
I'm just trying to think of oneI don't like. Any yeah. So
anything with vegetables.

What about your least favorite food?

My least favorite would have to be boiled egg.

Okay. Hot or cold?

Cold.

Yeah. Okay. I I I yeah.

Cold, I'm not used

to cold boiled eggs, but there you are. TV or
book?

TV.

You're watching any trash TV at the moment? Or
what is

it taking? Got. So I, so where my husband's at, I
will watch I love all of thecraft shows. So, Great Pottery
Showdown, Great British SewingBee. So trashy would be, is it

(59:56):
cake?
Very trashy. Very trashy. But,you know, they're they're very
clever, the people that makethese cakes. They look like an
ironing board, but it's cake.

Peter O'Toole (01:00:11):
No. No. No. That's a good answer. I I wish I
you sent another picture.
I just couldn't get it to work,which is a Barbie cake, but I I
couldn't get it to

Louise Cole (01:00:19):
Oh, yes. Oh, sorry. But yeah.

I don't don't know why.

I had a I organized a microscopy bake off, And that
was, a friend of mine, KatieDixon, who who, who, yeah, made
a a cake of of me, as a corefacility, you know, manager. So
that was a Barbie and a cake.There was also a brain and a

(01:00:44):
microscope slide. And andsomebody else did a tray out of
wafers and did some sugar workfor the slides.
Yeah. That's Yeah. Pretty impressive.

It'd have been quite good next to the brain if
you had the brain slices forhistology sections. Anyway,
what's your favorite film?

Favorite film? Sorry. I have to do this again.

Yeah. Light's going out.

Spirit and Away, which is the, yeah, Miyazaki.
Movie Christmas film? It's aWonderful Life, of course. I
watch it every year. Yeah.
Beautiful movie.

And what type of music? Ah, this will be
interesting as a gym butt gymbunny. What's your favorite
music?

So I like female vocalists, so and across all
different types of genres. Sofrom from country to to pop.
Mhmm.

What do you work out to? Do you work out to that
as

well?
About it. Whatever they play, which can be pretty
hard. So, I know. I know. Idon't really know the modern
stuff.
So something with a fast tempo,I suppose. But you don't go to
the gym to listen to good music.

Favorite color?

Yellow.

See, I know you've seen some of the
podcasts, but you didn't realizethat if you're saying yellow,
you've gotta say something like,aquadine orange or

Oh, I don't know.

Oh, sure. No. I know. But no one ever says it
now.

Yeah. Of course. Of course. Lucifer yellow. You
loser.
There you go.

Favorite technique?

Oh, I'm gonna say light sheet. We don't have a
light I did have a light sheet.I had an ultra microscope. So we
were the 1st in Australia to getan ultra microscope when I was
working at the Bosch Institute.
Mhmm.
And, and I and I was at Phoem in Maastricht in,

(01:02:48):
what, 2,013 when Eric Betzigdescribed the light sheet as the
rising star. So Stefan Hell wasthere with his super res. And,
so so I was there when that,that technique really became
popular. So, and I'm on alattice light sheet. Have you

(01:03:13):
got one?

We we don't have

Anyone listening? Anyone listening?

The lattice light sheet.

Take it off your hands. Yes.

So we are actually just over the hour, but
I have to ask one last question.Do you have any regrets?

Oh goodness. I think my main regret is that
Australia is so far from the UK.I just wanna make that. And that
would be great, not only formicroscopy, but, you know, to be
closer to to family as well. Soyeah.

That's a good answer. I did have other things
I wanted to talk about, but weare up to the hour. So, Louise,
thank you so much for joining ustoday. Good luck in your job
Thank you. And moving back tothe UK and then moving back to
Australia again.
Good luck with the presidency ofAMN.

Thank you so much.

You're doing there. And everybody's watched,
listened. Actually, there's somereally good bits through there
and listened to the previouscast. I actually cover some of
the material that Louise hasbeen talking about in other
details. Louise, thank you somuch for joining us.

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. Yeah. Enjoy
your day.

Thank you.

VX (01:04:25):
Thank you for listening to The Microscopists, a Bite Size
Bio podcast sponsored by ZeissMicroscopy. To view all audio
and video recordings from thisseries, please visit bite size
bio.comforward/vdashmicroscopists.

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