The Microscopists Mental Health Special with Beth Cimini, Kedar Narayan, and Jason Rodgers

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
VX (00:02):
Welcome to The Microscopists, a bite sized bio
podcast hosted by Peter O'Toole,sponsored by Zeiss Microscopy.
Today on the Microscopists

Peter O'Toole (00:14):
Today on the Microscopists, we have a special
edition all about mental health.And I have some brave guests
joining me today. Beth Simoneshares just how hard her
depression hit her during gradschool.

Beth Cimini (00:28):
Dealing with things that had happened to me, you
know, some childhood trauma andagain being in a long distance
relationship, being far awayfrom my family. And, it
manifested to the point where, Ijust I had whole days or
sometimes, you know, strings ofdays where I couldn't get out of
bed.

Kedar Narayan talks about the stigma
surrounding mental health.

Kedar Narayan (00:50):
But certainly for Indian families, I think
depression is still a bit of aforeign concept. I think it's
becoming a lot better now, butit I think the instant, reaction
is, it's one of those Americanthings.

And the young Jason Rogers reminds us why
mental health awareness andseeking health is so important.

Jason Rodgers (01:14):
In my eyes, the mental health is no different to
something physical. So in thesame way, you would go see the
doctor because you have, youknow, a cold or infection or
something. Go see the doctor tosee about your mental health.

All on this very special episode of the
Microscopists. Hi. Welcome tothis special episode of The
Microscopists. I'm Peter O'Toolefrom the University of York. And
today, I'm joined by 2 previousguests, Beth Simone.
Hello, Beth.

Hey.

And Kaydar and Rayan. Kaydar, hello. Hello. So
this is a a different recordingto usual because, actually, I I
asked both of them during theirpodcast what the most
challenging time was in theircareers, and they I can't
remember what your answers were.But I remember afterwards, you
both said, well, actually, maybeI should have said.

(02:09):
And so this is a mental healthspecial of the microscopies.
Because I thought it wasamazing. And, and I recorded
with both of you actually almostwithin a week of each other. I
think you're one after the otherand you both came out and said,
oh, Pete, I did have this time.I didn't have to share it or
not.
I thought actually it'd bereally amiss not to share this,
because I think your problemsare gonna resonate with many

(02:30):
people. Even if it doesn'tresonate with the listener
themselves, it'll be someonethat they know. And I think we
re I there's lots of questions Ihave to understand mental health
issues. I I've seen itfirsthand, but actually to us,
I, I don't think I've asked alot of the questions I'd like to
ask. So thank you very much foragreeing both to come today.

(02:52):
I think both of your storieswill be very different. So
actually, why don't I start,maybe with CADAR on this one, is
how did this actually start? Howdid it manifest? How do you
recognize this?

So for me, well, when we don't have sort of
mental health issues, for me,clearly, it it it was
depression. I went through aperiod, during my post doc,
which was very, very difficult.But as I was thinking about it,
it actually started with mychildhood. I was one of those
sort of academically, like,gifted. I used to do, quite well

(03:26):
in school, but that, led me tofall into 2 mental traps, which
was 1, because I thought thingscame easy, that, things should
continue to come easy all thetime.
That was trap number 1. And trapnumber 2 was I got very used to,
comparing myself, with my peersbased on these quantitative

(03:48):
metrics, you know, grades andranks and so on. And of course
once you get to undergrad andgrad school and then you post
doc, post doc, these thingsreally break down. Right? All of
a sudden you've got these nonquantitative parameters and
there are people who, startdoing very well, deservedly so.
And this for me started really,was it resulted in this edifice

(04:12):
sort of coming crumbling down.Things were very hard for me,
and I wasn't used to coping withthat. And I also realized that
there were a lot of other thingsthat perhaps don't quite fall
easily into, these categoriesthat I was used to that could
account for scientific success.So, I really started struggling,

(04:34):
I'd say, towards the end of gradschool, and then in my post doc
was when, things really sort ofcame together. And that's when I
went through and this isreflected in even my publication
record, right, but 3 years ofprime scientific, life, which I
lost to, to depression.
And I'm happy to later go intodetails about what it actually

(04:57):
felt like, etcetera, etcetera.But, essentially, that's how
this thing came about for me.

So so so the first thing that strikes me
though is, actually, I'm quite Ifeel quite sorry for you because
I remember when you get when yougraduate from your PhD and you
go to into your postdoc, youfeel it's quite actually, for
me, it was a very differentperiod. That was a what a real
self confidence going into itand and loving it and thinking
I'm the big m,

you know, as a big

soon realized because it's a different
question to of studying. Oh mygod. This is hard work again.
Right. So I I just have onequestion.
Was it because you were nolonger or you looked around and
you weren't the very best? Maybeyou were the best. Or was it
just that you felt that youshould know more and you were
failing?

Well, it was a combination of things. So, I I
did join a high profile, highpressure lab, and, mentorship
was not the highest priority atthe time. And, equally on the
flip side, I wasn't I didn'tknow how to articulate the fact
that I needed help when I neededit. Right? So those two things

(05:59):
were at work.
I was coming off of a difficult,breakup. I was also moving into
into a new town. So there wereall these, other factors, but at
at the core of it, I would sayit was the, breaking down of
really this carefully curatedself image that I had and then,

(06:20):
understanding very slowly that,okay, this this humbling is
actually a good thing. But whenyou're going through the process
of getting humbled, of course,it it's not very easy. So it was
it was a combination of, factorsfor me.

So, Beth, what about you? What how did, you
know, how did it manifest itselfwith yourself?

Yeah. A lot of things in in your story,
resonate with me. But for me, itwas a little bit earlier. It was
basically right from thebeginning of graduate school,
but, certainly once we got intosort of 2nd and third year, and
sort of you went off into yourown lab and intern projects.
Graduate school is the firsttime I'd lived more than, you
know, 90 miles from my home.

(07:00):
I was doing it was in a longdistance relationship, and I
ended up in a lab that it was avery good lab. And my mentor was
a very kind person, but, she wasvery hands off, and I thought
that was fine. I was warned shewas very hands off, and I was
like, oh, but I didn't know whatI didn't know about myself. You
know? And I just reallystruggled with graduate school

(07:23):
and just dealing with thingsthat had happened to me, you
know, some childhood trauma and,again, being in a long distance
relationship, being far awayfrom my family.
And, it manifested to the pointwhere, I just I had whole days
or sometimes, you know, stringsof days where I couldn't get out
of bed. And I had really baddepression. And I I, you know, I

(07:46):
not only didn't know how to askfor help, I didn't understand
that I needed help. It reallytook my friends being there for
me and saying like, you seemlike you're struggling in a way
that I think people could helpyou. And I was resistant at
first.
I'm like, no. No. Grad school'sjust hard for everybody. You
know, we're all we're allstruggling. They're like, no.
You probably need to go talk tosomeone about what's going on

(08:08):
with you. And, and I thankfullylistened to them and thank
again, thankfully had thatsupport structure there for me.
And, but ended up strugglingthrough most of graduate school.
It took me 9 years to finish myPhD, and one one form of mental
health absence for of about 3months, but the rest of it just
very slow progress because Ijust had really ongoing issues.

(08:32):
And as I sort of got closer tothe end and learned a lot more,
had a really good therapist whohelped me with a lot of issues.
You know, things sort ofaccelerated a little bit, but
when I, you know, came to theByrd 8 years ago, found myself
in a situation and in a job andin a kind of work that was much
better for me. And depression isstill a thing I struggle with.

(08:56):
It's gonna be a thing I strugglewith my entire life. It's just
how my brain works. But I wasable to find a much better
environment and find ways that Icould help me help myself
succeed by putting myself in theright place.

Which is which is actually a bit different to what
I've heard from Kedar. Sosimilar, but the similarities
differences as well between bythe way, please do ask each
other questions as well. Irealized I could sit back here
and just let you do this.

I was actually immediately gonna ask Beth about
it because you you mentioned itwas this episodic, kind of You
know, that's very I had a namefor it. I used to call it black
days. So I would I would gothrough 2, 3, 4 days where I
would just I would find it findit really difficult to get out
of bed. And, I don't know aboutyou, but I certainly had

(09:47):
physical symptoms. My body wouldhurt.
And just walking, was an effortbecause it was like I was
walking through classes. Mhmm.Of course, it would end, and
then I would have this hugespike and feel really good. Is
that something you had as well?

Yeah. I I didn't really have very many physical
symptoms, although I I knowother people in my life who had
mental health issues, who've hadthat same thing where they have
stress that literally manifestsinto them, sometimes hurting
themselves because they holdtheir body so intensely. I think
for me, it would have almostbeen easier to have had a more
physical sim side effect andsymptom because when it is a

(10:25):
sort of totally mental, totallyinvisible to the outside world
and it's just really about howyou're feeling, especially how
you're feeling about yourself,It can be so invalidating,
because you're like, no. I Ishould be fine. There's nothing
physically wrong with me.
But, of course, your brain ispart of your physicality. And
it's a it's a trap that I sortof continue the whole rest of my

(10:46):
life to sort of say, like, no.It is your brain works
differently than other people's,and that's okay. There are ways
you can sort of try to live yourlife to make it so that it works
the best that it can, but mybrain is never gonna be like
other people's. But it's hardwhen it's completely invisible.
I have a question

for both of you. So, Beth, you've kind of
answered it a bit of how did youfirst recognize it? It was your
friends telling you. Mhmm. Butso if I start with that, how did
you what clicks to realize yourfriends may actually have a
point?
At what moment did you acceptwhat they were saying? It it
things weren't right.

Yeah. How do you

recognize that? It it was it once sort of just
several of them, so I was, I wasreally lucky in graduate school
to find a a group of, 5 otherwomen and myself foods. Did
this, every other week dinnersort of group group therapy,
unofficially. And within thosesort of a few months, I was sort
of describing what was going onwith me and sort of saying and

(11:48):
then someone I don't rememberwhich person was first like, you
know, I I think you should talkto student health and see about
getting some therapy and thenjust sort of, you know, 4 other
sets of heads nodding all at thesame time. Sort of, Oh, okay.
And I think it had to be said tome a couple of times, but,
again, just sort of thisconsistent, okay. We we love
you, and we want you to be doingbetter. And feeling not judged

(12:12):
that I didn't do it right away,but, you know, sort of gently
encouraged that they cared aboutme and that was they wanted it
for me was was really critical.

What about yourself, Kedar? How how you
know, what what was the momentwhere you realized you needed to
seek help?

Me, I, spent a lot of time, you know, just
staring blankly at the computerscreen, and it just my brain
just wasn't working. And, I Ithink I as a coping mechanism, I
was just very good and sociableand being around people. I don't
know if too many people actuallyfigured this out. I think a lot

(12:57):
of people might be surprisedactually if if if they hear this
podcast, for example, to knowthat I was struggling through
this in grad school and doing mypostdoc. I was, I think, very
good at hiding it.
But, ultimately, it got to thepoint where I've realized that
this really needed, you know, anintervention. Right? I I needed

(13:17):
to do something. And so that'swhen I, you know, went out and
and and got help. And I'm happyto talk about, you know, how I
deal with it, etcetera,etcetera,

in a bit. So what help did you both get? What
where did you find the help, andwhat was that support like?
Maybe start with Kadar then comeback to Ben.

So for me, I I went to therapy, very good. It I
found this very, very useful.Right? Therapy is very useful
for me. I also went to, I foundout that partially, I think,
because of these physicalsymptoms, partly partially
because I recognizably got worsein the fall and the winter.

(13:59):
I knew, you know, I had seasonalaffective disorder and so on. So
there were very specific thingsthat I could, take care of,
light therapy, taking care of mynutrients, starting to sort of
exercise well, and that led meto sleep well and so on. And so

(14:21):
those were the things that Istarted doing. Now the next
thing I'm gonna say I willpreface by saying that
depression is is a is a problemof the brain, and there are
pharmaceutical interventionsthat are appropriate for many,
perhaps most people who sufferfrom it. And indeed, I was

(14:44):
prescribed, SSRIs, which arevery common, commonly used to to
tackle this.
But in my case, perhaps this isunique. I don't know. After my
period of black days ofsuffering for, you know, 3, 4
days, I used to get thisglorious spike at the end where

(15:04):
my brain would just work. It wasit was glorious. It would
really, really work well.
And I did not want to miss outon that. So I, continued to
suffer the lows in order toexperience the highs, and so I
said no to to drugs and insteadreally, really double down on

(15:25):
taking care of all the otherstuff, which, which took a long
time, but for me, ultimately,appears to have worked. And as
Beth pointed out, this neverreally completely goes away.
There's always that littlesomething there and then you
just have to be really attunedto what can trigger it to then,
take a step back and takepreventative actions.

I've I've I've got to just follow-up on that.
Just ask. You you had thoselows, and and, hopefully, you're
now not getting so low andmissing those lows. Are you
still getting those buzz days?

I do get buzz days. Yep. I do. And it's,
perhaps the amplitude doesn'tfeel as dramatic because of they
aren't preceded by by these. Butfortunately, I I do get the
occasional, days.
Perhaps they're less frequentbecause I'm getting older. I
don't know. But, but but I doknow that, one trigger, for

(16:20):
example, you know, I I mentionedthese micronutrient issues and
the light issues. But if I getextremely fatigued, I now know
mentally or physically, I knowthat that gets my brain going
down a certain path, and I knowwhat's at the end of the path.
So I know to just immediatelytake a time out, and and take

(16:40):
care of myself.

And what about yourself, Beth? What sort of
help did you collect, and wheredid you find it?

Yeah. Because I was in graduate school when my
problem started, I was luckythat UCSF had a pretty decent
student health system, sinceit's a a medical school, that I
could go and see people. And itit definitely took a while to
find somebody who was the righttherapist for me. And I was

(17:08):
trying to it took me a long timeto sort of acknowledge not just,
okay, I'm a person who needshelp, but, okay, I'm a person
who needs a lot of help. And soit took sort of even longer
until I saw somebody, sort ofmore frequently.
And I really needed for me,seeing somebody an hour a week
every week for a couple ofyears, in order to sort of

(17:29):
really get through, a lot of thesort of worst parts of my
depression. And I've gone backand forth, since graduating and
since, moving to Boston. I'vehad periods of time where I
didn't go to therapy, but then,you know, I've gotten good at
sort of noticing, like, Kaylawas saying, like, when I'm on a

(17:50):
path to not doing well and sortof, getting myself back into
therapy. I'm incredibly luckythat, I found a great therapist
about a year and a half ago,when I was having a difficult
time who I've been continuing tosee because it's just a really
good match. I did getprescribed.
I didn't end up doing SSRs. Iended up doing Wellbutrin, which

(18:13):
is a slightly differentpharmaceutical, and I've been on
that, almost continuously sincemy early twenties. I've tried
going off of it a couple oftimes and, it I can function
without it, but everything isjust harder. And it feels like
my stability is less. I'm notlike it takes less to sort of

(18:37):
push me to a point where, I feellike I can't cope anymore.
And I just noticed that, again,every little stressor just made
me feel worse. And so I I madethe decision to go back on it.
And for I realized for a longtime, the not wanting to be on
it for me was about not wantingto be a person with depression

(18:59):
anymore. Like, oh, well, if Idon't need the medicine anymore,
it must mean I don't have thisanymore, and therefore I must be
fine. But it's this is just athing that helps me be the best
version of myself.
And so for me, medication hasbeen the right thing. But,
absolutely, it's about whatworks for everybody's body and

(19:20):
life.

It's striking just how similar and how
dissimilar

Mhmm.

Both your cases are. It it it I'm so glad I've
got both of you at the same time

talking about

the differences. Hopefully, people will find
themselves somewhere between orother extremes, as they're
listening through. So certainlyin your case, Beth, your friends
knew I I presume you told yourfriends you were going to see a
therapist. Mhmm. How did sofirstly, how did your friends
react to that?

My friends were like, yes. Good job. We told you
to go. And I I've tried to, youknow again, it was hard at first
and it was weird telling myfamily, just because again, it
was like, oh, what I didn't feellike I could justify that there
was enough wrong going on, andit took a long time again to
just sort of get to the pointwhere I was like, no. Like, a, I

(20:10):
was under a lot of stresses, alot of sort of stresses that
would make anybody feel bad, butthat I have a brain issue that
you know?
But, again, I I had a lot oftime feeling guilty for feeling
depression. And part of that is,like, that is part of why I try
to I've tried to sort of sincegetting over that really
normalized talking about it. SoI've talked about it on Twitter.

(20:32):
It's something that, you know,relatively early in my
relationship with my husband,you know, sort of like, yeah. I
take antidepressants.
Like, I'm a person withdepression. And, you know, I
would tell my lab some days. I'mlike, sorry. I'm just having a a
day where I can't brain good.I'm sorry.
Like, I'm gonna sort of stepaway early or I'm gonna, you
know, just sort of focus on, youknow, doing doing something that

(20:55):
is not really necessary, butwill make me feel good, and
trying to make it so that it ismore normalized and it doesn't
have to be a giant thing. It'sjust a part of who I am.

I I can see okay. Dar was nodding through a lot of
that. And I just bet there's onemore part of that. You how how
did your parents react to it?They must have been really
worried.

I think I downplayed it to them a lot. It
was just sort of like, oh, yeah.No. And I'm I'm going to therapy
now. My dad was always a big fanof, like, no.
We we pretend all bad thingsaren't happening. So, and my mom
has has been supportive and sortof tries to understand the best
she can. You know, it definitelyI think sometimes again, she

(21:41):
doesn't quite understand whycertain things are upsetting for
me or that, you know, she justdoesn't always get she's like,
oh, well, that you don't have tobe upset about that. I'm like,
okay. But I am.
Again, she's wonderful andloving, but, yeah, my mom has
always been very supportive. Mydad has always was always just
sort of like, we're we're gonnapretend bad things don't happen.

Well, that's a good defense mechanism in
itself. That's a

that's a

defense mechanism. Kaydar, you were
nodding through that. So didyour friends know about, when
you reached out for help? Wereyour friends aware, or did you

were they in the dark? No. I I don't think, I
really shared very much withwith friends, about this thing.
And and to Beth's point, I it itjust resonated so much with me
because there is this feeling ofguilt that that comes over here,
like, you know, but, it's a veryit's a very, you know, your

(22:40):
brain does really funny thingswhen you're depressed. And
there's this, awful sort ofcycle where you go through this
woe is me kind of thing and thenyou you then feel guilty about
feeling guilty and then ofcourse that keeps building on
itself.
It's a terrible thing to gothrough. It's completely
pointless. But that's what yourbrain does. But but no. I for

(23:01):
this one, primarily, I think Ijust wanted to sort things out,
and I tend to look at thingsvery logically.
There are problems that neededto be attacked and sorted out
one after the other. And I wasvery careful and observant in in
figuring out what made me feelbetter or what made me feel
worse. And when it comes to ourfamily, the, you know, perhaps

(23:26):
I'm overgeneralizing. I don'tknow. But certainly for Indian
families, I think depression isstill a bit of a foreign
concept.
I think it's becoming a lotbetter now, but it I think the
instant, reaction is, it's oneof those American things. Yeah.
And and so you can't bedepressed. You're Indian. I

(23:48):
mean, you know, so I think thereare these cultural, aspects of
this that can make it a littlemore challenging to come out to
your parents or your family andjust tell them look this is you
know this is a serious problem.
It's not just that I'm goingthrough that that science is
challenging, which it is anyway,but this is something beyond

(24:09):
that. And I think that sometimescultural norms and other norms
can make it a little morechallenging to do, but it's
still worth doing it.

Did did either of you feel as though this could be
detrimental to your career ifpeople were aware? If your
peers, your colleagues, and andsenior staff, if they were aware
that you're having theseproblems, did you ever one worry
that that could be detrimentalto your career? I was thinking,
go with Kedar then come to bear.That KDAIL said, I've not
thought about that.

I did not think of it in that way. But,
certainly, I've also not beenparticularly open about this
either. So it's the kind ofthing that I felt it was it was
a problem that I need to neededto sort out. So I don't think it
it ever got to the point where Ihad to worry that, you know,
somebody would find out and andand that I might my career might

(25:01):
be in jeopardy.

Do do your peers now know?

No. Not many of my peers know. No. I'm

They're gonna watch the podcasting.

The whole world's gonna know now. Yeah. Well, I

said, do you think it would affect your
career? Or did were you worried?He's like, oh, no. I never
thought about that. Oh, no.

I don't wanna tell you. I was thinking about
this in real time. Maybe Ishouldn't be doing this. No. I
think I I I think the, one ofone of the things is when you
get past this, all thesenegative thoughts of of guilt
and lack of self worth and andand feeling bad about being
feeling about feeling bad, thenit really is like, well, I

(25:40):
injured my lower back, doingcrew at Cambridge.
Right? Why do I feel guiltyabout that? It's a similar kind
of thing. It's a part of my bodythat wasn't working particularly
well, and now I have ways bywhich I can control it so that I
can function properly. So that'show I think of it, and that
really helps destigmatize thewhole thing, at least it did for

(26:02):
me.

Beth, I'll just ask. I've gotta ask one thing.
She mentioned accruing and doingyour back. And do you think your
mental health state actually wasactually possibly one of the
causes for the back?

For me? Yeah. Oh, no. This was back when I was an
undergrad, and I was happy. Thethe the the lower back injury
from crew was entirely because Iam weak.
I have bad form.

A bad the similar question. Were you ever worried
about how that would have how itmight affect your career?

I think there have been periods where that was a
concern. I mean, again, ingraduate school, I had to take a
mental health leave. And, again,that was also a situation where
I've my boss came to me and waslike, I you're gonna take this
order off. Like, you're notyou're not doing okay. You need
to go spend some time, like,working on this stuff.
And, again, I I'm very gratefulto her that she did that because

(26:58):
I was just gonna try and sortof, muscle through. Oh. So,
again, in graduate school, like,everybody around me knew this
was a problem. And, again, Ijust stopped showing up for days
at a time. There wasn't youknow, it's clearly something
going on.
I don't know to what degree myreferences told, my current
boss, Anne Carpenter, that whenI sort of started in her group,

(27:20):
but I was I remember beingupfront with her about it
relatively quickly. Like, hi.This is the thing that that
might happen that I might sortof have to deal with, that
sometimes I get these depressiveepisodes, though I have had way
fewer of them since being in hergroup. And for me, now that I'm

(27:42):
sort of more like, I was in thatone same group from postdoc all
the way now through being a PI.And so in that sense now that
I'm a, you know, semiestablished PI, it's like, well,
people are gonna judge me on mymerits, but, certainly, I would
never have felt confident sortof trying to go for an academic
job or something like thatstraight out of, you know,
graduate school or a shorterpost op because I would have

(28:05):
worried that, you know, there'sthis big hole in my resume of,
you know, times when I weren'twasn't scientifically
productive.
But I think probably the personwho thought that this would
affect my career most was me,and I I resisted the idea for a
long time of wanting to be a PIbecause I didn't trust myself
that I would be able to getthrough it or that I wouldn't

(28:27):
put myself in a situation wherethe people in my lab were
relying on me and I would letthem down, because I wouldn't be
mentally healthy enough to helpthem. And, you know, knock on
wood, so far, 3 years into mylab, that hasn't happened yet.
And I now have a really goodteam where I I know I can go to
them and I can say, you know, II need some extra help with

(28:48):
this. I'm not doing great rightnow. But, it was a job I
resisted for a long time becauseI wasn't sure I

could handle it.

Okay. Before moving on to the next bit, you
did take those times out of workwhere you were missing I think
you said it was 3 months, wasit, at one point? Do you

Yeah. How

did you find going back after that 3 months?
Were were sort of virtual wallsbuilding up between yourself and
the workplace, or was it quitenatural to go back in? How did
that feel?

I was very lucky in the, my boss had already
scheduled for me to go visit acollaborator, like, starting the
beginning of the followingquarter anyway. So it was
basically, well, why don't you,you know, just take a few months
off and then go on this trip andthen come back? And so I could
thankfully come back not from,oh, well, now you've been out
being a crazy person for 3months. It's like, oh, you were

(29:40):
up being crazy for 3 months. Andthen you went and, like, went
to, visit a collaborator.
So I was coming back off of asuccess rather than that. I
think it probably would havebeen harder again despite the
fact that the people in my labwere lovely and supportive. But
I I was still dealing with a lotof sort of shame and guilt again
around the fact that I was doingso poorly.

And and that shame and guilt surely must have
been a a a cycle, which onlymakes it worse. That yeah.

I know

you're you're nodding as well.

Yeah. I mean and the the mistake I made in, you
know, complete contrast to Bethis I tried to power through,

which in retrospect tried. I just then failed.

I I probably I probably should have taken some
time out, but I tend to beunnecessarily competitive. And,
it just is inimical to takingsome time off. And, and, again,
somehow, I convinced myselfthat, doing doing that, taking
time off, taking care of myselfwas somehow a sign of weakness

(30:45):
and that I I have, you know,lost, right? I've lost against
this foe. So it was a very oddkind of things that were going.
So that was the one, I suppose,mistake that I made was to try
to bow through, and that reallyI can't I don't wanna generalize
to everybody, but I cancertainly say that it for me, it
was perhaps not the wisest wayto to move forward.

That's interesting. So one thing I I
I'll skip a question. I I wasgonna ask. If you could change
anything looking backretrospectively, what's one
thing you would change? So, isthat the one thing you'd change,
or there are other things you'dchange as well?

Yes. Number 1, I think I should have taken the
time out. And number 2, I shouldhave learned how to articulate
needing help. And I I think thisfor me, again, this was part of
this, sales image having tobreak down and be remade again.

(31:49):
For me, that that really waswas, it it took a lot of work.
And to to, not look at that as adefeat is difficult, because I I
think that that's what preventedme from just asking for help in
a in a way that was a lot more,that could have been a lot more
hopeful and open and andbeneficial. I didn't do that.

So that's a lot of, you know, looking back in
retrospect. Do you regret notdoing that at the time, or,
actually, do you now look backand go, well, I would change it
now in retrospect, but,actually, I don't regret doing
what I did because I I wouldn'tbe wiser. And you may regret it
taking time off if you're takingtime off. I don't know.

Right. I mean, I I'm not sure I well, this is a
difficult question. Right?Because we only have one life
path, and things turned out, theway they did, which, yes, they
required a lot of hard work andresilience and patience and
luck. I don't know if this istrue for you, Beth, but I found

(32:53):
that that for me, a couple ofthese things had to click
together to start, you know, forme to start believing myself,
for me to start being okay withmyself, a lot of these little
things.
Because one of the, one of thethings that the depressed brain
does, which is so annoying, isthat it magnifies failures and,

(33:17):
and and, depresses wins. Right?It it's it's really annoying.
And so when you have wins orsuccesses, you're like, ah, that
was no big deal or you forgetabout it. But when you have a
minor setback, somehow that'smagnified.
And so I think, yeah, that's,that's I was getting over that a
little bit of a problem, but butno regrets. So I just to get

(33:39):
back to your question. Yeah. Itit turned out okay. Couple of
lucky breaks, and I think thathelped.

Beth, you were nodding through that.

Yeah. No. The the what really resonated a lot of
what what you said was, aboutthe, just, like, how would you
have done it differently? Like,maybe you wouldn't have come
back as high sort of if youhadn't gone through the the part
of having to sort of remakeyourself. Because when he was
asking this question, I wasthinking, what the only things

(34:09):
that I that I sort ofimmediately like, well, I would
been less ashamed and less butthat's that's the illness.
That's, you know, that's a partof what it is. And so, again,
sort of avoiding havingtriggered being in such a sort
of relatively unsupported placein the first place. But, again,
if I had never gone through thatexperience, I wouldn't be the

(34:30):
person that I am now. And so Idon't they're not the funniest
years of my life to look backon, but I certainly learned a
lot about myself and eventuallyhaving to come to terms and
dealing with, you know, problemsthat had been there for me since
childhood but never dealt withuntil I got to graduate school.

(34:51):
You know, just sort of shovingmore years on top of them, I
don't think would have helped mein the long run.

I think if if we look at the way where where you
both are today, you're both atthe top of your fields. Okay?
You're both rising stars, but atthe top of your field. So, you
know, I've other We've got somethat are rising up fast.
Actually, you're both stellarnames in your areas.

(35:20):
You're

Mhmm.

But also rising stars. And as you say, it's
maybe that's part of what's madeyou who you are today as well,
from that learning cycle. Somaybe it's also had some I'd I'd
like to think it has somepositives. How would you say
and, actually, this is, Credo,this is something you've we're
we're actually posing as aquestion yourself is how would

(35:43):
you say how would you say youare different today? What is the
diff how are you different as aperson today than before?

How am I different today? Well, I think
this thing, you know, Beth and Ilook like we're echoing so many
of our own thoughts, but,resilience. Right? I mean, this
this this whole episode reallytaught me a a good deal about
myself, and I I do think thatI've become, a lot more

(36:17):
resilient on account of thiswhole thing. For me, there's
another big difference.
I was I was I still amcompetitive. I think I don't
think that'll ever go away, ButI was competitive in what I now
realize was a very outwardlyfacing and toxic kind of

(36:39):
competitiveness. And, when thiswhole thing happened, I realized
that those were a lot of mytriggers, this kind of
unnecessary comparative thing,which doesn't work anyway in
science. Right? You you don'twant to end up in a place where
you you everyday look atsomeone's, you know, PubMed stat
sheet or whatever it says andtry to see and try to use that

(37:02):
as a gauge of how how successfulyou are or how good you are as
as a person.
So I think, the biggest changein that sense has been to let go
of all of that, and really lookupon just, my work, as how it
sort of makes me feel good,right, and and how I can
contribute. And that has helpedme appreciate other people's

(37:27):
successes, and that I cannottell you how much of a weight
off of your shoulders that iswhen people do well, and your
brain suddenly stops thinking ofit as a threat, and then you
actually enjoy their success. Mygod. That is such a welcome

(37:49):
change. It's, it really is.
And I I'm a 100% sure that Iwould not have been able to do
it if I was in that brain spacepreviously.

That's lovely. That's a really lovely
sentiment.

And, Beth, what about yourself? Do you think
you're different now to how youwere before?

In some ways, yes. And in some ways, no. To to
cater to my resilience, like,there have been certainly bad
things that have happened in mylife sort of since, since my
worst episodes of depression,but you sort of end up getting
the sort of like, well, I'vegotten through worse. Like, I've
survived a lot. And so, youknow, if a grant doesn't come in

(38:30):
or, you know, I have a fightwith it, like, kind of the
worst.
Like, sort of you have this sortof okay. Well, this isn't the
worst thing that's ever happenedto me. But for me, again, a lot
of the things that were triggersfor me in graduate school, are
still triggers for me. And sofor me, it was less about, that
I have changed because in a lotof ways, I haven't, but just

(38:52):
sort of about building myself avery different kind of life, a
life where I can be moresuccessful and where, you know,
I'm not as triggered. And forme, a lot of it was about
feeling like what I was doingdidn't matter.
Or and, you know, getting thewhole thing in your PhD is you
are becoming the one worldexpert on a thing that you are

(39:13):
the only person in the world whocares the most about. And it
turns out that was terrible forme. Like, that was a terrible
thing for my mental healthbecause, again, nobody else in
the world cared about this inthe way that I did. And so it
felt I felt very alone. And soinstead of doing that kind of
science, but being in a placewhere I'm making tools that help
other people, I immediately knowthat other people, like, care

(39:35):
about what I'm doing and thatwhat I'm doing not only, like,
is important to other people,but makes them happier.
And that for me is so rewardingand so fulfilling. And I think
even with the better mentalhealth that I have now, if I had
stayed in a more traditionalresearch career, I think I still
would have been pretty unhappybecause, again, that sort of

(39:57):
focusing narrowly on a researchquestion is bad for my mental
health. But building things thathelp other people is phenomenal
for my mental health. And so,I'm incredibly lucky that that's
what I get to do every day.

So I I think you both already said that you
you're very self analytical now,and you you'd be aware you'd
recognize symptoms, I think, ifthey were coming again. You both
think you both say you recognizewhen it's coming, gone, and
changing. Mhmm. And you'reworried that it could go into
your your bad brain or your nota good brain day, was it, Beth?

(40:33):
Or that your black days wouldstay black.
Are you worried that it couldget worse again? That's it. I'm
not keep on nodding.

Yeah. I worry. Does it make like, there will be
times where my mental healthwill be worse than it is now.
I'm I'm certain of it. You know,bad things will happen in my
life, and it will, it will behard.
And figuring out I I think onething I don't know if this you
had this experience together,but as a person with depression,
figuring out how to have, like,normal stress and normal

(41:04):
sadness. Like, because you spendso long trying to get better and
trying to not be sad all thetime. And then how do you deal
with just regular sadness?Because regular people aren't
happy all the time. Regularpeople are stressed sometimes
and sad sometimes, and figuringout how to do that.
I think as long as I stay intherapy and stay on my

(41:27):
medication or some combinationof those two things, I hope it
will never be as bad as theworst times. But at this point,
I know this is sort of a thingthat is gonna cycle through my
entire life and, hopefully, in amuch more dampened way than
before.

Yeah. I I will echo that as well. It doesn't it
doesn't ever go away completely.And so you just have to be
proactive and and and check thewarning signs and, and then deal
with it. But I I would be lyingif I said that, you know, I'm
home and clear because I'm, lifewill go on and there will be ups

(42:10):
and downs and those downs, youjust have to hope that it you
don't sort of tumble down a paththat and ends up with you in a
in a really bad place.
But, you know, one thing thatBeth just said that just struck
me. I didn't realize about thisthing up until just now is that,
you know, CellProfiler andEmpanada are really, like, 2

(42:32):
sort of sides of the same coin.Right? And I remember the joy
that I got from, folks that Ididn't know at all asking me
about empanada or evencomplaining that a certain
module didn't work right orwhatever it is, giving me so
much, joy compared to when thepaper came out. Right?

(42:53):
And and, it's a pity that ourtraditional metrics of
evaluation and self worth tendto be very different from what
it looks like makes you and mehappy. Right? It's it's it's
it's ultimately way morerewarding for you.

Should be best, Trevor, what makes you and me
happy, obviously. Yeah. That'sright.

I, in a moment, I'm gonna call in another guest
in a moment. But just before wedo, have you ever blamed any one
element of your life forbecoming depressed? Have you
ever is it is it one thing? Isit being work? Was it sending
personal?
You know, have you ever gone offthat and there you know, have

(43:36):
you ever blamed it on anything?Or any point have you blamed it
on anything?

I'm

looking at 2 blank faces.

Yeah. Beth, do you

wanna go first? Or

I mean, again, like, part of mine came from
some not great experiences I hadgrowing up. And but, again,
like, I I I don't think there'sever any one thing if, you know,
if I was didn't respond tocertain stresses the way I did
and sort of you know? And if mybrain neurotransmitters weren't
the way my brainneurotransmitters are, you know,

(44:12):
it's always hard getting gettingyourself to the point of sort of
dealing with the bad things thathave happened in your past, but
I I don't I don't think there'sany one cause for me anyway. And
it's never really been aboutthat. It's just been about,
again, like, who who am I?
How much am I my disease? Howmuch is my disease part of who I

(44:35):
am? How do these thingsintersect? And that's gonna be
something I think I'll befiguring out for a very long
time.

And maybe changing over time as well.
Mhmm. Kedar.

Yeah. Yes. I did have these factors. Right? These
external factors.
But, ultimately, it's it's veryclear that those are just
external factors that you don'tcontrol, and it's the way that
your brain reacts to them thatreally is the bottom line in
terms of how this devolved. So,I did spend a lot of time being

(45:11):
angry and frustrated at all ofthese things. And then,
eventually, you figure out thatthese these things will happen.
These things you can't control,and this is where you are. And
there are certain things thatyou do can do that can control
that that you can control thatdo help.
But, you know, very rarely doyou have situations where it's

(45:38):
it's, you know, where you don'thave any external triggers at
all. Usually, there's something,right, that sets you off going
down a particular path. So Yeah.

And It's

just different people.

How about your workload? Have you dropped the
workload? I I I I I certainly, Iknow Beth firsthand. I don't
think you've dampened down yourworkload when you're traveling
or anything else. You are insanewith the effort you put in.

So I'm Trying to stop.

And and neither you ever say no. And, actually,
you know, which then you soyou're both positive, but so you
haven't had to modify that partof your work. I know some people
who've had health problems inthe past, they've had to say no
more often because, actually, itwas just the amount you're
traveling or something elseactually just took its toll

on them. For me, yes. So I'm part of this whole
thing of rejiggering, your yourself worth and how you measure
yourself, and think of yourself.I think part of it is when when
those parameters change,suddenly, for me at least, I
realized that, a lot of theseboxes that I could have checked

(46:48):
actually well, they don't reallymake me happy. And, and, and
therefore, maybe I don't wannado them.
But I don't want to, in any way,minimize the amount of luck and
good fortune that I'mexperiencing, that allows me to
do that because there are a lotof people who are not in the

(47:09):
position where they can uncheckthese trigger boxes, right, for
for whatever their worksituation or life situation may
be. But because I happen to bein this situation to the extent
I can, I I can avoid thesetriggers or these stresses? And
I do.

That's a good, intro, actually. So, actually,
for those listening or watching,in the background of all these
recordings, for most of theserecordings is Jason. And Jason
is works for Bite Size Bio. Hedoes a lot of the editing. And,
actually, when setting this upand talking to Jason about
actually, my I I'm notcompletely comfortable.
It's quite it's a bit nervewracking asking you these, what

(47:47):
I think, quite personaldifficult questions. So I was
talking to Jason, and then Jasonactually said, well, actually,
Pete, I've been there myself.So, Jason, could you join us,
please? Hello, Jason Rogers fromBite Size Bio.

Hi there. How are we doing?

Good. Thank you. So I it'd be really good to hear
how you've you've been listeningin the background. Mhmm. So,
you're not a scientist.
So to, Jason, first of all, forthe guests that are listening,
what's your role? What are youdoing academically? What are you
doing in Bite Size Bio?

So, I'm Jason. And in Bitesize Bio, I'm one of
the producers. Mainly, I lookafter the podcasts. I help out
with webinars as well and, justany other projects really that
that we do, in the company. Andin an academic sense, my whole
background's audio engineering.
That's my whole thing. And I'venot long graduated with a

(48:44):
master's in audio forensics, andI'm still working towards a PhD
in that as well.

And just being invited to give your first talk.
You had your first paperaccepted and going to give a
talk at a conference, Jason?

Yes. Yeah. That was some really good news.
Yesterday, I got, formally toldthank you. I got formally told
yesterday that I'm getting mypaper published in a conference
next month.
So It's so different.

Achievements. So, Jason,

you you you've heard this. And, actually, there
must be some strikingsimilarities considering at the
age that Beth and Keydars startsto executives start to feel
depression and stuff. So haveyou felt listening to that? And,
you know, where are yoursynergies and differences with
it?

So there's think you said earlier on, there's a
lot of, points that are similar,but there's also a lot of points
that are very dissimilar at thesame time. So, for instance, I I
I took down some notes here. So,Beth, earlier on, you talked
about not being able to get outof bed. And I think, Kedar, you
called them black days, I thinkyou said. I completely

(49:49):
understand that.
I was days that, I've struggledjust to get out of the bed. We
actually have a daily call. Myteam at Bite Size Bio, we jump
on about 10 o'clock in themorning every day just for 20
minutes to talk about the workwe've got to do and make sure
we're not overloaded oranything. I've been very guilty
of taking that call in bed,without the webcam on because

(50:10):
that was just that's as much asI can manage. I've I've told
people that, so I'm notbothering that.
And, it spoke as well aboutstruggling to speak up. And, I
it's something that I I don'tthink I found it as hard as
other people, but there'scertainly, a big stigma

(50:32):
everywhere about people havingmental health and speaking up
about it. People thinking thatit's, it's not a real thing or
it's not got as much of a,impact as something physical.
And it's in in my eyes, anyway,because I know everybody's
different. But in my eyes, themental health is no different to
something physical.

(50:54):
So in the same way, you would gosee the doctor because you have,
you know, a cold or infection orsomething. We'd go see the
doctor to see about your mentalhealth. Obviously, everybody
else feels different about it.But, personally, that's my view.
And I think that actually helpedhelped me find it a bit easier
to speak up about it.

(51:14):
But I didn't speak to somebodyin person. I've found it easier
speaking to strangers ratherthan anything else. Not sure
why, but I think probablysomething to do with my,
struggle seems to be a a bit ofpersonal, mixed in with a bit of
lifestyle, mixed in with somehistorical stuff as well. So I

(51:35):
wonder if it's something to dowith the personal element being
there, that people who don'tknow anything about it is easier
to speak to them about.

It's interesting how you said, Jason, that, you
know, the stigma that'sassociated with it. And yet as
you listen to Kaydar and Beth, Ididn't feel as though they
thought there was such a bigstigma about it. You know, Beth,
your friends are recommendinggoing to see it, Kate. You
recognized it and dealt with it.You dealt with it in confidence.
But neither we really mentionedthat there might be a stigma
associated with it. People mightthink less of you or think
you're just just Beth, youmentioned your father and how he

(52:06):
goes everything's fine. But but,listen, obviously, you mentioned
the word stigma in this. So wereyou worried that your friends
would think less of you becauseof this?

Not by friends per se. One one of my close
friends, his fiancee, is amental health nurse. So and my
little friend, Greg, we've we'rekind of accepting about it. And
I have told them, I'm strugglingand talked about with them. But
as I've seen over social mediaover the years, one of the
reasons I'm not on it anymore,people don't think anything

(52:40):
about it.
I've heard comments, in the pastof people talking about other
people with, mental healthissues and saying that kinda
downplaying them, kinda makingit seem like, oh, they're just
putting it on. They're puttingon a show that they've got
depression or something, whereasit's really not the case. But I
think just having heard all thatstuff, in the past kinda made me

(53:03):
think about it a little bit whenit came to me experiencing it. I

think that stigma is is is absolutely real. And,
again, that's like, I think Isort of alluded to before. Part
of why I try to now be reallyopen about it is, again, I felt
really guilty and ashamed. And,again, is this real? Is this and
I want to try and make it easierfor someone who comes after me
to be like, oh, yeah.
No. This is a thing. It's real,and it doesn't have to be,

(53:30):
again, the end of the end ofyour career, the end of your
happiness, the end of yourwhatever. Just but there's
definitely a lot of people whohave very outdated ideas or or
who think that depression isjust something where you're sad
all the time and there's no thatyou can't be a person with
depression, but also, you know,shows up to work smiling.

Yeah. Yep.

Sorry. I'm gonna go, Gator. I thought you were
about to say something.

Oh, no. I I was just okay. So No. But but there
was also you mentioned socialmedia, and, I I just had to
double click on that because ofhow much of an impact, I've
certainly for me, it was verydeleterious. Because all you see

(54:20):
on Twitter or whatever it is isis the best of people right and
often the worst of people.
And this was one of the triggersfor me as it's one of the
triggers that I think I failedto mention in in you know in
this podcast, but it certainlywas and I had to be very careful
about how I did. In fact, I'veI've disengaged for the most
part, from Twitter even though Iknow it's at the expense of

(54:43):
getting the word out with someof the work work of our lab, but
it is I just made the call thatit's just not worth it.

This certainly, I got a lot of stuff from Facebook
before and, but when I decidedto come off it completely, I
went, no. I'm not on it at all.The only one I do know is
LinkedIn. But the, I havenoticed that because you
mentioned there about strugglingto get word out for the lab and
things there. I used to get alot of news, from social media.
It seemed latest from the BBC orSky News or whatever. I felt a

(55:16):
bit disconnected from the worldthat way. So I now have to pay
for a news app, of my own choiceanyway, to get all the latest
news and things. It's, actuallythen became slightly worrying to
me about how much that'sintegrated into our lives now as
well.

Jason, I'll give you some top tips on that
afterwards.

You might not have

to pay for it then. Bed into it. So that that
stigma, I think, was animportant one to address, and
and going through it. Were youworried about your colleagues?
Your your peers and yourcolleagues and your your bosses
at work?

No. Not at all. Actually, Bite Size Bio has been
very, very good, supporting mefor it. As soon as I I was
actually physically sick when Iwent off with my, mental health
as well, which partly caused themental health downspyral. But
after I got physically better, Iwas still off with the mental

(56:17):
health.
And they kept constantlychecking in, how are you doing?
We're here if we need anything.They helped me, when I was, you
know, not able to work. Theyeven came through, to see me, to
make sure I was okay. So I liveabout an hour's drive from the
office.
They came through my way, tookme for coffee, had a little
morning just to check-in, see ifI was okay. And even now, every

(56:40):
other day, they're justchecking, going, still okay?
It's less and less now. But, youknow, they're they're there and
they are wary of it, but they'rethey're not making a a thing of
it. And because Bite Size Bio Idon't know.
Listeners probably won't knowthis, but Bite Size Bio works
completely remote. We have anoffice, but there's only maybe
about 5 of us that use it. Theother 10 or so people in the

(57:04):
company all work all over theplace. We all work from home
mainly. So twice a year, we havein person gatherings.
And we had one a few weeks agowhere we had a little topic in
it about well-being at work.And, I decided to speak up at
that, tell the rest of thecompany about me struggling with
it, mental health and whatnot.But I did it more to try and

(57:26):
make sure that everybody else isknows that you can do it, try
and make everybody else feel abit more comfortable that, you
know, I'm struggling with this.So if you're struggling with
something similar and yourselfthere, you're not the only one.
Please do speak up, and there ishelp here for you.

I I wonder how much the older generation so I I
was interested in Beth's fatheras an example saying, oh, no.
No. No. It was, you know, crackon. And I think you do hear
people say that this is a thisis this is like a epidemic of
the youth because they'rehearing about it, so they're
just jumping onto the track.

(58:06):
And actually, Kaydar Beth, Iknow you're not old. You've
always said anything else. But Ithink

I don't know I'm old, but thank you for saying
that.

I can't go wrong if I go that direction. That's
for sure.

That's right. That's right.

I'm learning. I'm learning. But I think the
critical thing is, you know, beit's it's big news now. You
know, the last 5 years or so,I'd say, it's been a big drive,
but both of you have beenthrough this before that 5
years, and it shows that it wasthere. I think actually it's
because of hearing stories.
And hopefully this as well helpspeople recognize and and address
the problem. You know?Hopefully, we're getting far

(58:44):
fewer, very serious problemsbecause people can identify with
what you've what we've heardfrom all 3 of you and actually
recognize that maybe themselvesor maybe recognizing a friend or
a colleague or appear at workand and, you know, hopefully
offer that help or find thathelp and reach out. And then it
will it it we will have morepeople identifying with mental

(59:05):
health problems. Mhmm.
Because they won't be hiding it,because they will be able to
come out and they won't, Kaydar,you know, fight their way
through it

Mhmm.

By themselves. You know?

Hey, do

I I how prevalent was it for you when you were
there knowing of other peopleand that have shared that
experience at the time?

If there were other well, when I went through
this, there just wasn't thatmuch talk about it. Right? I
mean, this isn't ages ages ago.We're talking about relatively
recently, And and it's stillabout yeah. That's right.
Just a few years ago. But, yeah,it did feel a little bit like
this was something that wasunusual. And part of it was,

(59:44):
again, this mental constructthat I had that was, you know,
if you think you're infallibleand you realize you're not, it's
there's a big there's acomedown, right? And you have to
get used to it. But one of thethings that as we talk about
this, I don't know what how tohow to deal with this, which is,

(01:00:06):
if someone's going through this,you know, feeling really low and
then, you know, they they mightbe depressed.
They're not a 100% sure. Andscience as we know it is nothing
if not a series of, you know,sort of, metaphorical, hammer
blows on the head and ego.Right? I mean, failure is
intrinsic to science. And so, Iwonder if there's a way to

(01:00:33):
accurately assign setbacks asjust or sadness or
disappointments in one box andthen sort of recognize that as
being different.
Because the fact is that inscience, you do have to plow on,
right, in the face ofdifficulties and setbacks and
failed experiments. So I don'tknow, in some ways we have to

(01:00:56):
we're really demanding a lot ofeveryone to be nuanced enough to
know when to push on and when tobe when to persevere and when to
know. No. No. This is not aboutscience.
It's about a problem that I haveto take care and maybe step back
a bit. I don't know how I don'tknow how how to do that or how
people can do that.

Peter O'Toole (01:01:18):
It it yeah. I think that's gonna be different
for everyone again. And,actually, I I have one quick
question. We are coming up tothe hour. I I do have a quick
question, actually.
When you get a grant rejected ora manuscript rejected, how long
do you how long do you sufferthat, if that makes sense? Could
you especially at Grant, youit's your heart sinks. Yeah.

(01:01:42):
Because you provision thatsomeone's rejected everything
else. You know, how long and II'm not even gonna ask you, do
you feel sad?
Because everyone has to feelpretty disappointed when they
hear that. But how how long doesthat live with you before you
flip off the other side and intobattle again? Beth, what about
you?

Beth Cimini (01:02:03):
I I definitely have been guilty of asking the person
who runs one of my sub teams tobe like, I can't really read
these reviews. Can you just readthem and sort of tell me what
they said? And, because for me,that's it's not gonna be easy to
read those. But, again, I Ithink it's a thing that
everybody struggles with. Andthe fact fact that funding rates

(01:02:26):
are so terrible at this point,you can sort of comfort yourself
with the idea of, oh, well, youknow, it it every like, this
still could have been good andjust you know, it's a crapshoot
once you get down to a sort ofsingle digit, per funding
percents.

Kedar Narayan (01:02:40):
Kato? Well, I'm at the NIH and and the National
Labs, so we don't write grants.But, we are having a very
difficult funding cycle. And,strangely, this time, even
though it was very stressful, itwas it has been and continues to
be a very stressful time. I findmyself not slipping into this,

(01:03:02):
into a bad place.
So somehow, I think just withtime, my semi seemed to have
figured out how to calibratestresses and disappointments and
not tumbling down thatdepressive path. I think

maybe a top tip for anyone, listening, is make
sure that if you are critical ofa grant or a manuscript, it's
constructive. Beth is a goodexample of how to be a
constructive referee. I knowthat. She didn't reject her
manuscript twice over, but justwas constructively critical of
it. It made it so much betterfor it, but we were actually

(01:03:36):
very receptive to it.
We didn't know it was best atthe time, but we were very
receptive.

But now the world knows.

Oh, no. The world knew anyway. Beth Beth actually
signed her name on it at theend.

I do too on my reviews. Yeah.

No. So so it was not at the time, but afterwards,
it all came out. Beth's name wasthere. So it's so which was
which I think was really good.And I think that's yeah.
I I when I sit on grant panelsand review grants, I think you
should never say anything youwould not say to someone's face.

Mhmm.

Yeah. You know? And just be consist don't be
super critical. But but, youknow, you need to be able to
stand up. And I think I haveapproached people in the past
and spoke to them aboutdifferent bits.
And so, Jason, when you get yournext manuscript, if it gets
rejected, don't be gutted by it.It happens. Wake up the next
morning and work out how you'regonna make it better going

(01:04:27):
forward on that.

Jason Rodgers (01:04:28):
I I I can, I think, kinda comment on that?
Because when I I said earlierI'm doing, working towards a
PhD, I actually applied this isthe second kind of round of
applying for it. So the firsttime I did get rejected, and
that really did get me down.Because I I I was planning to do
it while working full time.Well, living in Scotland, but at

(01:04:48):
a university in England as well.
So all these bad things there.And I'd went I'd flipped back
and forth for so long going,will will I apply? Will I do it?
Spoke to my partner about it andeverything. Because it was gonna
be such a huge impact.
And I got talked into applyingfor it. Applied for it. Got
myself so excited and so workedup for it. And then wasn't

(01:05:09):
successful. And, that did get meout in a slump.
And that was before my wholemental health thing started as
well. So yeah. It's not I don'tknow if it's quite the same as
the grant proposals or that, butI it's my way that I can relate
to it, I think.

Rejection of any sort is pretty difficult, for
anybody. Right? I mean, it's

yeah. Doesn't feel good for anybody.

No. Doesn't do enough.

Yeah. If we have

competitive.

Sorry?

We are we are competitive.

Yeah.

Yes. Mhmm. I wanna if we have a a minute, just sort
of return back to a couple ofthe things that you were saying
before about, sort of stigma andsort of people finding each
other. One thing I I think is alittle possibly different about
my story than than Jason andGerard is, I think women are
more used to talking about thiswith each other. And I know,

(01:06:06):
anecdotally, there are somepeople that I know who've had
mental health stuff who havebeen men.
They've had a harder timebecause they've been told there
are a lot of resources that arefor women only just because not
enough men sign up for, say, agroup therapy thing that they
can even fill the class to thepoint where the it's makes
financial sense for them to runit. And so I think, I think to

(01:06:27):
some degree, it's that womentalk to each other about this
more. But, one of, for me, thegood things about social media
that has also a lot of badthings, but was, again, finding
other people who seem to begoing through the same stuff I
was. And so the there's goodaspects that will hopefully come
from culturally sort of sharingthese things. And, again, for

(01:06:48):
both men and women that, thatthese things happen in their
normal on their need to be dealtwith, but then they can be sort
of survived.

Well, that's a really good point, Ingrid. I can
see you nodding.

I just think that is such a good that is such a
good point. Yeah. I mean,because it's just been sort of
beaten into our brains, right,that we're supposed to be, you
know, strong and start deep out,ourselves and so on. And I'm I'm
sure some of us, I'm sure can,but for those of us who can't, I

(01:07:24):
think being forced to to do Imean, by us, I mean, men in this
in this case. I think, yeah,it's unfortunate, and I'm I'm so
happy you brought that upbecause it's absolutely not
right.
So especially if you're a manand if that that's, one extra
thing to to break down, justjust do it. Talk to somebody.

Did you find some of

the data?

Sorry. I think that's very good as well.
Because, certainly, here andwhere I am and also in Edinburgh
where the Bite Size Bio offices,everywhere you go, there's
little leaflets on the walls inin bathrooms or in corridors or
in notice boards. And I I thinkit's called Andy's Man Club over
here. And it's it's a mentalhealth support group for men.

(01:08:12):
It's all it's targeted directlyat men. And on the surface, some
people might think it might, youknow, might be a bit sexist or
not. But I think it's actuallymore to address this issue that
men don't speak up or not asmuch as women do. And so there
are things out there for peopleand as countless resources. I

(01:08:33):
mean, when I spoke up, I had to,I actually formed a mental
health support line who put mein touch with a charity that
about mental health.
And even then, when I went to mylocal pharmacy to get
medication, they the they had alittle chat with me as well and
said there's more support hereand went through everything. So
it's it is out there. It's justspeaking up that you need it,

(01:08:56):
that you need to go and get it.That it's there for you to get
to have and to take. It's justcrossing that barrier to
actually accept it.

Okay. So we are up to well, just beyond the
hour. I think it's worth theextra and I am going to say, so
anything any last words thatanyone would like to say? I'll
I'll go round my my window.Kate, are there any last tips or
bits of advice or anything you'dlike to say?

If there's one thing I could say, it would be
that, you can learn to beresilient. I think sometimes
there's this thing of, you know,people are either sort of in
internally weak or internallystrong or, but but you can
actually learn to be resilient.The thing for me was I figured

(01:09:45):
out early that my brain was, youknow, magnifying the defeats and
and and minimizing, mysuccesses. And so I found that
correcting for that andaccepting wins for what they are
was actually good. And even ifit meant that you're creating a

(01:10:05):
little bit of a story line foryourself of successes, your
brain is gonna tell you, you'rea faker.
Right? You're just you're justmaking something up. You're just
making your own sort of,hagiographic hagiographic story
line, but that's okay. Just workthrough it, allow yourself to
have the wins, and then withtime, you'll start building that

(01:10:26):
resilience so that when you dohave setbacks, which will have
been which eventually willhappen, that, again, when you
you realize that it isn'tperhaps as bad as your brain is
making out to be, that can belearned with time too. So, yeah,
you can learn resilience.
It just takes diamonds andeffort.

Thanks, Kayda. And Beth?

I think one thing that was really helpful to me
sort of in pop culture as I wassort of dealing with a lot of
this It's, there's a writernamed Jenny Lawson. She blogs
under the name of the blog s,and she deals with mental health
stuff and talked aboutdepression lies. And, Kaydar
mentioned earlier, again, justsort of the this guilt and shame
stuff. But so if you're feelingthis way about yourself,

(01:11:13):
depression lies. Depressiontells you that you're not as
good as you are.
And so I think it sort of buildsnicely on what you were just
saying about sort of makeyourself the story that you're
winning. Like, it's not that isactually the real story. It's
that your brain is lying to youand telling you that you're not
succeeding, but you can you canlearn to change your thinking

(01:11:33):
patterns. And I I hope that oneof the sort of things that we
can sort of do as a society is,again, go away from this. Like,
you are either a strong personor a great person, but the
growth.
Everybody has the potential togrow if they want to. And there
is help out there. There arepeople out there who are gonna
understand and gonna be therefor you. It might take some time
to find the right resources thatyou need, but if your brain is

(01:11:56):
telling you that you can't getthrough this, that's your
depression line too.

That's top top tip there. Thank you. And,
Jason?

I think I'd say that, my my stuff can't come to
more from anxiety rather thandepression. And, I've found
that, I mentioned earlier aswell that Basis Bio works at
home all the time. We workremotely, although we do have a
shared office. I now go to theoffice a lot more and and get a
lot more social interaction forit. And I would say that,

(01:12:31):
finding something that helps youto get out of bed, something
that helps you to function assuch a huge help as it can be
difficult to find that and it'sit's definitely easier said than
done.
But once you do and you knowwhat that is, it's it's a huge
help. So I've the example is forme anyway, it's obviously, I I

(01:12:54):
go to the office and, that helpsme massively. But as stupid as
this sounds, because this is theother bit, no matter how stupid
it sounds, it's not stupidbecause it works. I bought a
little, plush toy from the FinalFantasy games, partly as a joke.
And it sits on my desk in theoffice, and I get so excited to

(01:13:14):
go to the office to see thisstupid little plush toy that,
the days where I've woke up and,it's an office day, and I'm
like, I really can't be botheredgoing to the office.
I'm struggling to get out ofbed. I'm not in the right
headspace. I've made myself get,in the car and go to the office.
So I've been excited to seeeverybody else in the office and

(01:13:36):
this stuffed little plush toy.

I'm so glad you said that the other people in
the office and your plush toy.Because I was gonna say

That's but, honestly, whatever you find
helps you, it may feel stupid toyourself. Because I I've said
exactly those same words, that'sstupid plush toy. That's the
exact words I've said toeverybody else. And, so many
other people have went, it's notstupid because it helps you.
It's not stupid because itworks.
And it really isn't stupid. Nomatter how much I say it, it's

(01:14:09):
not and I and I say it comicallymore than anything else. But
something like that, when ithelps, it does help massively or
so I've found anyway.

So we we should wrap up because we are over the
hour. I have no apologies forbeing over the hour today though
because I think it's been reallyimportant. What you've heard
today will resonate with some,men will not resonate with
others. There'll be some of youwho are maybe facing milder
problems, some of you may bemore severe problems. But
hopefully today has helpedeveryone there and will help you

(01:14:39):
thinking forward as well.
So on the microscopies, I've gotto thank Kaydar, Beth, and
Jason, for sharing theirstories, their advice, their
tips. It's been a very personalexperience for everyone and to
open up about this. Okay. Gladyou didn't realize, k, that you
haven't tongued anyone. So thisis, hopefully, I think please

(01:15:01):
share this this recording.
Please pass it on because Ithink this is really important
for people to listen or towatch. Everyone, thank you very
much for today.

Thank you so much.

Thank you. Yeah. Bye.

VX (01:15:14):
Thank you for listening to The Microscopists, a Bite Size
Bio podcast sponsored by ZeissMicroscopy. To view all audio
and video recordings from thisseries, please visit

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

The Breakfast Club

The Joe Rogan Experience

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Microscopists Mental Health Special with Beth Cimini, Kedar Narayan, and Jason Rodgers

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

The Breakfast Club

The Joe Rogan Experience

All Episodes

The Microscopists Mental Health Special with Beth Cimini, Kedar Narayan, and Jason Rodgers

On Purpose with Jay Shetty