April 22, 2025 • 33 mins
What do you do when a dream job ends in heartbreak?
In this eye-opening episode of The Mid-Career GPS Podcast, host John Neral sits down with Laverne McKinnon, former Senior VP of Drama Development at CBS, to talk about a rarely acknowledged experience: career grief.
After leading CBS from last place to first with mega-hits like CSI and Criminal Minds, Laverne was unexpectedly fired at the height of her career. What followed was a silent, decade-long struggle with emotional fallout that society often tells us to ignore.
Laverne introduces the concept of disenfranchised grief—a powerful term for the emotional pain professionals feel after job loss or career disruption that isn’t socially validated. Through her LEARN Framework (Look, Explore,
Address, Reframe, Nurture), Laverne shows how we can move from heartbreak to healing, reconnect with our values, and reclaim agency over our careers.
Whether you're facing layoffs, mid-career stagnation, or preparing for a major transition, this episode will help you understand how to grieve the professional losses we’re told to "just get over."
In This Episode, You’ll Learn:
- Why career grief is real—and why ignoring it is harmful
- The emotional impact of sudden job loss after career success
- What disenfranchised grief means in the workplace
- How to use the LEARN framework to process grief and regain clarity
- The connection between unprocessed failure and blocked resilience
- Rituals like writing a "career eulogy" to create closure
- How grief reveals your core values—and points you toward your next moonshot
Connect with Laverne McKinnon
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Neral (00:01):
In today's job market, it is understandable
that many mid-careerprofessionals think they have to
play it safe, can't make bigmoves and should simply be
grateful for what they have.
But what if you not onlydecided to think bigger, but
acted bigger as well?
My guest this week is awonderful example of what it
(00:22):
means to go after your moonshot.
This week is a wonderfulexample of what it means to go
after your moonshot.
Laverne McKinnon reached amilestone in her career with CBS
, where she worked as the SeniorVice President for Drama
Development.
During her tenure, she helpedlead the charge at the network
as they went from last to firstplace by working on such shows
as CSI and Criminal Minds, andthen, after 10 years, she was
(00:46):
fired.
How do you process?
How do you move on?
How do you put one foot infront of the other and get back
to work, especially doing whatyou love?
Today, you will hear LaverneMcKinnon's powerful story about
how she pivoted in her careerafter an unexpected setback and
built her mid-career GPS to takeher moonshot to what was next.
(01:11):
Let's get started.
Hello, my friends, this is theMid-Career GPS Podcast and I'm
your host, John Neral.
I help mid-career professionalslike you find a job they love
(01:31):
or love the job they have, usingmy proven four-step formula as
a podcast host, you sometimeshave a guest who delivers such a
powerful message that youdecide to shift the schedule and
move that episode up becauseyou believe this is exactly what
your audience needs to hear,and that's what happened in this
episode.
(01:52):
At a time when people arefearful of losing their jobs,
companies are going throughdramatic organizational change
and there's a general air ofuncertainty, laverne's message
is one I believe you need tohear.
Laverne McKinnon is an executiveand leadership coach
specializing in careertransitions, whether recovering
(02:14):
from a setback, embracing apivot or stepping into a
leadership role with moreconfidence.
Her upcoming book Showstopperexplores career grief and
transformation, reframingsetbacks as plot twists that
offer the chance to rewrite ourstories and shape our futures.
A former senior executive atCBS and Epix, laverne executive
(02:38):
produced Netflix Girlboss,teaches at Northwestern
University and is a mentor forthe CAPE Leadership Fellowship
Program.
I invite you to listen veryclosely as Laverne shares her
best tips for acknowledgingwhere you are in your career,
leaning into what you're feelingand understanding why you
(02:59):
should never overlook ordiminish career grief, as it is
an important part of your careersuccess.
That Laverne shares through herLearn Method.
I am so honored to bring youthis episode and it is my
pleasure to introduce you toLaverne McKinnon.
(03:19):
Hi, laverne, welcome to thepodcast.
It's great to have you heretoday.
Laverne McKinnon (03:25):
Thank you so much.
I'm really excited to be here.
John Neral (03:29):
I am too.
I've been waiting to have thisconversation with you for a
while, Laverne.
You have an incrediblemid-career moment that I briefly
touched on in the introduction,but would you please share with
us what that was?
Laverne McKinnon (03:47):
introduction, but would you please share with
us what that was?
Yes, john, I'm going to startthis story out by just saying
how much I love a moonshot.
I love big, audacious goals andearly in my career I had a big
moonshot, a big dream that Iwould become the president of a
film studio, president of abroadcast network.
It was really something that Iaspired to working in the
(04:09):
entertainment industry and I gotmy shot at that by being hired
by CBS in their children'sprogramming department and this
is back when there was Saturdaymorning kids programming, which
no longer exists.
And after two years in thatdepartment I was promoted to
prime time current programmingand that's like going from the
little league all the way to themajor leagues.
(04:30):
It was a big leap and it wasvery exciting, very thrilling.
After two years in thatdepartment I was promoted again
to the most coveted departmentat the network, which was drama
development, and I was part ofthe team that took the network
literally from last place tofirst place by developing the
CSI franchise, criminal Minds.
It was heady, it was exciting.
(04:51):
And after two years I waspromoted again to the head of
that department and that firstyear in that job I had the
highest testing pilots innetwork history.
And then after 10 years of beingat CBS, I was fired and I did
not see that coming at all andthat experience really pivoted
(05:15):
me and it took me about 10 yearsto realize that that the
emotions that I was feelingafter losing my job and I mean I
felt I was gutted it was really, really horrible.
I'm actually getting a littleemotional right now just like
thinking about it and relivingit.
(05:35):
And after about 10 years afterI was fired from CBS, I realized
that this emotional weight thatI was carrying it was grief.
Cbs, I realized that thisemotional weight that I was
carrying it was grief.
And when I gave myselfpermission to mourn that job
loss I was able to realize thatthat original dream that I had
of being a network president, itno longer applied to me and
(05:57):
what was really important to mewas being able to help people
not feel the way that I didafter a career setback.
So my mid-career pivot wasreally driven by a very bad
experience but it clarified forme what was really important to
my life and how I wanted my joband my career to reflect those
(06:17):
values.
John Neral (06:20):
So, laverne, I thank you for sharing all of that,
because for so many people rightnow here we are almost in the
middle of 2025.
This is when this episode isgoing to drop.
People are going through a lotof changes in their workplace.
Some are staying with jobsbecause they need to, some have
unexpectedly been fired, laidoff, ripped from their positions
(06:43):
, have unexpectedly been fired,laid off, ripped from their
positions, and to your point.
There is a lot to process whensomeone goes through an
unexpected loss in their job.
I'm wondering if you couldshare with us a little bit about
what was that first thought youhad when you were told you were
(07:09):
being fired, and how quicklymaybe your mind might've raced
in that moment to startprocessing everything.
Laverne McKinnon (07:19):
It was surreal because I did not see it coming
and, to be completelytransparent, I was in a
codependent relationship with myboss.
So when she came to me and toldme that I had become a
liability, my first instinct was, honestly, to make her world
(07:40):
better.
It's like, oh, if I'm thesource of pain, then I should
leave.
And I said it's like, oh, thenlet's settle out my contract,
let's talk to my lawyer.
She declined that offer and ittook several months for my
firing to become official.
But when it really hit me oflike, oh my gosh, wait a second,
(08:02):
I don't have to worry about myboss, how am I feeling?
It ripped me into a thousandpieces, because my identity was
so tied to my job.
It wasn't just the title or thesalary or the perks, or the
benefits or being in a positionof power.
It was about me being competentand capable, that I was someone
(08:24):
that could be relied upon, andI thought of CBS as my home.
And so I was shattered and Idid not know what to do next.
John Neral (08:35):
When you look back on that time, would you say that
being the senior VP of dramadevelopment was the job you
loved?
Laverne McKinnon (08:48):
the senior VP of drama development was the job
you loved.
I love that job so much becauseI was able to advocate for
writers, for talent whomarginalized talent, and I
really it's a great pride inthat and to be a part of a team
that was having such an impacton people's viewing.
And when CSI took off thoseprocedurals I mean it just
(09:14):
changed the entire network andto see how that happened and to
be associated with somethingthat was so commercially
successful is like yeah, thattotally fed my ego.
Sure yes, sure, yes.
John Neral (09:26):
Yeah, what would you say was the hardest thing about
working in the entertainmentindustry?
Because for many people andmyself included, as a child who
grew up in front of thetelevision set, when you talked
about taking CBS from the bottomto first, I remember that time.
I remember the network wars andthose kind of things before we
(09:48):
really had streaming servicesand so much more content and
entertainment on demand in termsof like.
What was that specifically likefor you?
(10:09):
In terms of being in such aposition of leadership and
authority and influence whereyou really could make change
that hadn't been made before.
Laverne McKinnon (10:18):
Well, I should put this into a little bit of a
bigger banner, which is John, Iam a recovering perfectionist
and a recovering people pleaser.
So the validation of beingbumped up and being a part of
this incredible moment in time,it was incredible and it was
(10:40):
really feeding my people,pleasing and being a
perfectionist and having thesegoalposts and really mixing my
metaphors here, but like gettingprojects across the finish line
.
That was so much of my identityand so it felt great in so many
(11:05):
ways where she would introduceme to people, she would put me
front and center, she wouldvalidate my ideas in public
settings and so, wow, it feltgolden.
I was like on a golden elevatoruntil I wasn't.
John Neral (11:15):
Right.
And so when that moment happensand you started processing
processing the shock, the grief,the upset, the anger, the
plethora of emotions that comewith all of that, one of the
things that struck me from ourpre-call conversation and
(11:36):
prepping for today'sconversation was and you shared
it openly at the beginning whichwas and you shared it openly at
the beginning which was it tookyou 10 years to fully process
everything that happened.
You and I get that, but whatwould you say to somebody who
might be listening, or maybesomeone in your past who has
said to you 10 years, that seemslike an awfully long time to
(12:00):
process.
How would you respond to that?
Laverne McKinnon (12:04):
Well, I would definitely go on the defensive.
John Neral (12:09):
Of course, and rightfully so.
Laverne McKinnon (12:12):
I understand the question and it's because I
did not know that I was grieving.
And if I had permission togrieve and I even knew about
this, I think it wouldn't havetaken me 10 years to understand
my experience.
And so there's a term in thebereavement community called
disenfranchised grief.
It's a term that's coined byKenneth Doka, dr Kenneth Doka
(12:36):
and it essentially means anytype of grief that is not openly
acknowledged, sociallyvalidated or publicly mourned,
and professional heartbreak.
It falls into the category ofdisenfranchised grief because,
hey, you should be lucky thatyou even had that experience.
Hey, laverne, you went on toother really awesome jobs, like
(12:56):
why are you so sad and you know?
Or people who have chosen toretire.
It's like, what's like, what'swrong with that?
Or, oh, you've been laid offbut you got chosen to retire.
It's like, what's like, what'swrong with that?
Or oh, you've been laid off butyou got a great package.
It's like you're getting paidfor a couple of months but
there's still a sense of lossand grief comes from attachment
(13:17):
and the depth of our attachment.
So I was deeply attached to myCBS job, so when I lost it, of
course I would feel grief.
You may have been in a jobwhere it's like, oh, it was just
a job, it was a paycheck, so ifyou left or you were laid off,
it's like I wasn't attached tothat.
I'm completely fine to move on.
So when we look at grief, wehave to take a look at what was
(13:40):
the depth of attachment.
And because I didn't understandthe depth of my attachment, and
then the loss of that leadingto grief, of course it took me
10 years.
It could have taken me myentire life, except I happened
to stumble upon this concept.
John Neral (13:57):
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(14:18):
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(15:08):
Now let's get back to theepisode, one of the things that
we're obviously living throughand seeing right now, especially
for me living in the WashingtonDC area.
We know there's been a lot ofcutbacks within the federal
government.
We know there are a lot ofpeople who have been laid off
and riffed and lost their jobsand everything, and one of the
most striking conversations I'vehad over the last couple weeks
(15:29):
and admittedly it's not been asolo conversation, as this
happens multiple times is thatfor people who are a little
further along at mid-career,where they may have years of
service in and they might beeligible for early retirement,
one of the things I'm hearingfrom people that is quite
honestly angering them is thatpeople will say, oh, but you've
(15:52):
got early retirement, you'refine, and their rebuttal is but
I'm not ready.
How does that fit into thisconcept that you see time and
time again and have experiencedabout professional heartbreak
and disenfranchised grief?
Laverne McKinnon (16:15):
I love this question so much, John, because
one of I'm going to back up fora second.
Sure, we believe that there arerules to grief.
It's like, oh, you need to talkabout your feelings, you really
have to cry it out.
You should go to a supportgroup.
The truth is that there are norules to grief.
(16:35):
Everyone griefs uniquely,individualistically, informed by
our cultures, by ourcommunities, by our religious or
spiritual beliefs.
However, there are tasks togrief, and so one of the tasks
to grief it's the last one isexactly what you're talking
about, which is agency that Iactually am in control and I'm
(16:59):
empowered to make decisionsabout what's best for my life.
So being invited, encouraged,pushed into early retirement, it
robs someone of agency, and sothat is a huge component to
grief, which is like, wait asecond, I didn't have a chance
to have a good goodbye.
John Neral (17:19):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah,
absolutely.
You shared an activity or aconcept with me when we talked
previously about helping peoplewrite a eulogy for that chapter
(17:40):
or part in their career.
Would you tell us why that's soimportant and impactful to do?
Laverne McKinnon (17:47):
Yes, so it's very common when someone dies
that there is a ritual.
There might be a funeral, amemorial service, a gathering in
which we can acknowledge ourfeelings for that person and
have an opportunity to expressourselves.
So very much with professionalheartbreaks or career setbacks,
(18:12):
we can create rituals aroundthat so that we can have a good
goodbye, and one of the manyrituals that I've worked with
clients.
I work a lot with people in theentertainment industry, a lot of
writers who have writtensomething, a script, that never
sees the light of day, or maybethey got their movie produced
(18:35):
and then it didn't do well inthe box office, and so we'll
actually print the script outand we'll bury it, we'll burn it
, but the most important part ofit, honestly, is writing the
eulogy.
And so I had one client whowrote a eulogy, apologizing to
the script, to say I'm sorrythat I did not get you across
(18:59):
the finish line, I'm sorry thatnot everyone could see just how
amazing and wonderful and howfull of possibility you were,
and then these final words,which are just, I think,
incredibly powerful, which is?
Rest in peace.
And so this client was able toexpress their hopes and their
dreams and their wishes for thisproject, what it meant to them,
(19:22):
but then also to have that goodgoodbye.
John Neral (19:28):
So for people who are dealing with their own job
loss or professional grief rightnow, how would they go about
saying goodbye to thatorganization, that job, that
work where they didn't get thatchance to say goodbye?
Laverne McKinnon (19:52):
Yes.
So I'm going to go back to thisidea of the tasks of grief, and
there's a framework that Ideveloped and I call it LEARN.
It's L-E-A-R-N.
So the first task of grief isto really look at the loss laid
off by the federal governmentand again, like that's that,
(20:15):
that first level of loss, whichis absolutely legitimate, is the
job.
But underneath that perhapsthere was a belief that if I
work for the federal government,I will have safety and security
, I'll be able to stay in thisjob for my entire career and
grow and blossom and do goodthings for the public.
So and then, like looking again, like what's underneath that,
(20:37):
so it might be a loss of like,for example, with me, like my
identity, my confidence, myesteem.
So that first step is reallycritical to understand what is
the loss and what are all thetentacles of the loss.
And then exploring the meaning.
What does this mean?
So a few federal workers that Ihave spoken to and it really
(20:57):
does break my heart that thatthe meaning that they're
creating as a result of nolonger having their job with the
federal government is oh, Iwasn't good enough, I wasn't
worthy, I didn't work hardenough, I'm too old, I'm too
young, and so we create meaningsto explain events that we don't
understand.
(21:17):
So it's important tointerrogate and reframe that
meaning so that it's helpful,not hurtful.
And then we have to address thepain and this goes to the
rituals that you and I justspoke about, john, of being able
to create a ritual that allowsyou to address the pain that
you're feeling.
And then that final step isnurturing agency and regaining
(21:40):
that sense of control.
John Neral (21:44):
It's a really helpful framework.
I hope people will hit thatrewind button a couple of times
to go back and go through.
So those five steps were tounderstand, go beneath the loss,
to really explore what that is.
So it's loss, explore, address,regain and nurture or reframe.
(22:05):
Reframe, sorry, reframe andnurture, okay.
Laverne McKinnon (22:08):
Yes, really good.
John Neral (22:10):
You said something in explaining this framework
around the explore part, whichwas that thought that could come
up about?
I wasn't good enough or, torephrase, maybe my work wasn't
good enough or there's somethingas an expert in this field.
When you're working with peoplewho are dealing with being
(22:33):
unexpectedly fired or they'vebeen laid off from a job, how do
you help them work through thefacts and the emotions of their
natural questioning that maybethey should have saw this coming
?
Laverne McKinnon (22:53):
Yeah, that's also a phrase that I've heard
quite frequently as well, in thesense of shame and blame and
humiliation that goes with that,and I like to practice and
(23:14):
encourage the people that I workwith to assess and not judge.
It's very important not to fallinto, while reframing the
meaning of what happened, into aplace of toxic positivity.
We are professionals.
We need to be able to assesswhat worked, what didn't work,
what needs to be coursecorrected, what do we double
down on?
And so there may be an elementof truth to say, oh, I missed
(23:36):
the signs.
And then it's not to stay inthat place, but then to identify
through data, not drama, whatwere the circumstances in which
I missed those signs.
And so those are skills andtools that can then be
incredibly valuable for theremainder of one's career and
(23:58):
professional life.
So, for me, I felt tension in myrelationship with my CBS boss.
I wrongly attributed it to thestress of what we were doing and
I just assumed oh, once wedeliver the pilots for the
season, you know we'll go take avacation and we'll be back to
happy times again.
So what I have learned is thatif I'm feeling something to get
(24:24):
curious and if I could have donesomething differently.
It could have been and itdoesn't mean that my boss would
have been honest with me but Icould have advocated to say hey,
I'm feeling some tension in ourrelationship.
Are you feeling that?
And if so, what is that?
John Neral (24:40):
Yeah, thank you for that.
That's good, and showing upfrom that place of curiosity can
be extremely powerful as wenavigate our careers and build
our mid-career GPS to whatever'sgoing to be next.
Before we start wrapping up,though, laverne, I want to touch
on one other thing that we'vepreviously talked about, and
(25:03):
that's how we process these typeof events in our career, and
one of the things I remember wasand the word we had used was
failure.
Right, we learn to processfailure, and obviously not
trying to equate here that beingfired is a failure in that
regard right, but to your point,you talk about how processing
(25:27):
failure the unprocessed failureleads to a loss of resilience,
and resilience is required for along, fulfilling career.
Yes, I'd love to know how thishas shaped your resilience.
Laverne McKinnon (25:46):
Another awesome question, which is the
and I'm going to go specificallyback to grieving and mourning
because once I knew I wasgrieving and I gave myself
permission to mourn.
I was going to go specificallyback to grieving and mourning
because once I knew I wasgrieving and I gave myself
permission to mourn, I was ableto interrogate that meaning that
I was creating, because walkingaround for a decade thinking
that I'm worthless, stupid andnot capable anymore, it wasn't
(26:12):
helping me on any level.
And so once I was able toreframe and say, oh, my values
no longer aligned after 10 yearswith CBS, I didn't belong there
anymore.
I didn't fit into the culture,that negative self-talk.
It was like a lid over myresilience cup.
And when I was able to removethe negative self-talk, I was
(26:44):
then able to fill thatresilience cup with hey, wait a
second.
I'm a great learner.
I'm someone who is committedand dedicated.
I am curious.
I do have this depth ofexperience, I do have the skill
set, and so it was able to helpme get back onto course and to
clarify what truly is my NorthStar, my moonshot.
(27:07):
And resilience is a little bitlike willpower.
It's in the sense that it canget used up, it's not an endless
well.
And so compassion, self-care,checking in with ourselves and
assessing where am I at in mycareer right now?
Does it feel good to me?
Am I aligned with my values?
Those are all things thatimpact our resilience.
(27:30):
It can impact our resilience ina negative and a positive way.
So if we're not doing thatstuff, so now I feel so much
more equipped, when setbackshappen, to check in with myself
of like, okay, how attached wasI to that particular person,
place or thing?
And then, if I was deeplyattached, let me mourn.
(27:51):
If I wasn't, then let me justskip over into assessment and
figure out, okay, what needed tobe course corrected and what
new best practices do I need todevelop.
John Neral (28:01):
What's the most exciting thing about your work
today?
Laverne McKinnon (28:10):
Oh, it's the.
This is going to sound so hokey, which is why you're hearing
this like pause in my voice, butit's really two things is that
when I am working with a clientor I'm talking to someone about
this concept of disenfranchisedgrief and professional
heartbreaks, and their face goes, oh, that's what's going on,
(28:33):
and it's a huge aha.
And it immediately gives apathway of how to be able to
move forward and stop feelingstuck.
That just is so unbelievablyexciting.
And then the other excitingpart is like then seeing that
transformation occur.
It's like, oh, now that I'vereframed what happened in a way
(28:55):
that's actually helpful to me,now that I've reframed what
happened in a way that'sactually helpful to me, and then
seeing people activate on thatoh my gosh, that's just.
It makes me a little weepy tothink about.
John Neral (29:06):
Well, your work is extremely impactful and it's
needed and to work with peoplewho are wanting to take the time
to go through, be curious,explore this entire process
about what this means for themin their lives and careers.
That's a special relationship,you know, and that's something
(29:27):
which, right now, witheverything we're dealing with,
that's a gift, so thank you forthat.
Laverne McKinnon (29:34):
Thank you.
John Neral (29:34):
All right, we're gonna start wrapping up here, so
I have to ask what advice wouldyou give someone today to help
them build their mid-career GPS?
Laverne McKinnon (29:46):
I really do want to circle back to this idea
of professional heartbreaks andthat, as you're recalibrating
your GPS, is to just do a littlebit of an audit and to reflect
back on your career to say, oh,was there a heartbreak here?
Was there a heartbreak there,is there something that maybe is
(30:08):
unresolved and am I feelinggrief?
And if you are to do the workto really process those feelings
so that you can come out theother side with a clear North
Star, Wonderful.
John Neral (30:25):
So if people want to connect with you, laverne,
learn more about you, find whereyou are.
I'm going to turn the mic overto you.
Share all the great thingswhere people can connect with
you.
Laverne McKinnon (30:33):
Oh, thank you so much.
So, if you know, of course I'mon this podcast, so your
listeners are navigating careertransitions, and in the place
that I would love to invite yourlisteners to is to join me on
Substack, the Substack platform.
You can find me under LaverneMcKinnon or Moonshot Mentor.
It's free to subscribe and Ihave weekly blogs and podcasts
(30:56):
with a lot of tools aroundcareer transitions.
There's also a paid tier.
It's $5 a month and paidsubscribers get access to
co-working sessions, meditations.
I'm also going to be launchingin late April a five-part career
grief workshop and that'll alsobe available on replay, and
(31:16):
I'll do another one, you know,later in the summer and fall.
But it's a beautiful, beautifulcommunity, so that's the
primary place.
And then my website is also myname, lavernemckinnoncom, with
more specific ways to connectwith me and the services that I
offer.
John Neral (31:32):
Yeah, I will make sure all of that is in the show
notes.
Laverne McKinnon, thank you forcoming on and sharing your
story and just being a greatperson and great guest today.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
All right, my friends, wetalked a lot, a lot of things
today and a lot of things thatperhaps weren't really easy to
hear, and so if you made it tothe end of the episode, pat
(31:53):
yourself on the back, that's areally good thing.
But as much as we talked aboutprofessional heartbreak and
grieving that job that you love,I don't want you to miss one
key point of Laverne's messagetoday, which was, as you're
building your mid-career GPS,there's a moonshot in there.
What's next?
Where are you resilient enoughto go after that next thing?
(32:16):
You are here because you are arepresentation of the totality
of your experiences, both inyour life and in your work, and
so, while work's important andwork's great and everything, if
you're at the middle of acrossroads, you're trying to
navigate your mid-career GPS towhatever is next, don't forget
to look for that moonshot and goafter it, because that's a
(32:39):
really great place to land andgo after.
So we wish you all the bestwith that and until next time my
friends remember this you willbuild your mid-career GPS one
mile or one step at a time, andhow you show up matters.
Make it a great rest of yourday.
Thank you for listening to theMid-Career GPS Podcast.
Make sure to follow on yourfavorite listening platform and,
(33:02):
if you have a moment, I'd loveto hear your comments on Apple
Podcasts.
Visit johnnerrellcom for moreinformation about how I can help
you build your mid-career GPSor how I can help you and your
organization with your nextworkshop or public speaking
event.
Don't forget to connect with meon LinkedIn and follow me on
social at John Darrell Coaching.
(33:23):
I look forward to being backwith you next week.
Until then, take care andremember how we show up matters.
Thank you.
In today's job market, it is understandable
that many mid-careerprofessionals think they have to
play it safe, can't make bigmoves and should simply be
grateful for what they have.
But what if you not onlydecided to think bigger, but
acted bigger as well?
My guest this week is awonderful example of what it
(00:22):
means to go after your moonshot.
This week is a wonderfulexample of what it means to go
after your moonshot.
Laverne McKinnon reached amilestone in her career with CBS
, where she worked as the SeniorVice President for Drama
Development.
During her tenure, she helpedlead the charge at the network
as they went from last to firstplace by working on such shows
as CSI and Criminal Minds, andthen, after 10 years, she was
(00:46):
fired.
How do you process?
How do you move on?
How do you put one foot infront of the other and get back
to work, especially doing whatyou love?
Today, you will hear LaverneMcKinnon's powerful story about
how she pivoted in her careerafter an unexpected setback and
built her mid-career GPS to takeher moonshot to what was next.
(01:11):
Let's get started.
Hello, my friends, this is theMid-Career GPS Podcast and I'm
your host, John Neral.
I help mid-career professionalslike you find a job they love
(01:31):
or love the job they have, usingmy proven four-step formula as
a podcast host, you sometimeshave a guest who delivers such a
powerful message that youdecide to shift the schedule and
move that episode up becauseyou believe this is exactly what
your audience needs to hear,and that's what happened in this
episode.
(01:52):
At a time when people arefearful of losing their jobs,
companies are going throughdramatic organizational change
and there's a general air ofuncertainty, laverne's message
is one I believe you need tohear.
Laverne McKinnon is an executiveand leadership coach
specializing in careertransitions, whether recovering
(02:14):
from a setback, embracing apivot or stepping into a
leadership role with moreconfidence.
Her upcoming book Showstopperexplores career grief and
transformation, reframingsetbacks as plot twists that
offer the chance to rewrite ourstories and shape our futures.
A former senior executive atCBS and Epix, laverne executive
(02:38):
produced Netflix Girlboss,teaches at Northwestern
University and is a mentor forthe CAPE Leadership Fellowship
Program.
I invite you to listen veryclosely as Laverne shares her
best tips for acknowledgingwhere you are in your career,
leaning into what you're feelingand understanding why you
(02:59):
should never overlook ordiminish career grief, as it is
an important part of your careersuccess.
That Laverne shares through herLearn Method.
I am so honored to bring youthis episode and it is my
pleasure to introduce you toLaverne McKinnon.
(03:19):
Hi, laverne, welcome to thepodcast.
It's great to have you heretoday.
Laverne McKinnon (03:25):
Thank you so much.
I'm really excited to be here.
John Neral (03:29):
I am too.
I've been waiting to have thisconversation with you for a
while, Laverne.
You have an incrediblemid-career moment that I briefly
touched on in the introduction,but would you please share with
us what that was?
Laverne McKinnon (03:47):
introduction, but would you please share with
us what that was?
Yes, john, I'm going to startthis story out by just saying
how much I love a moonshot.
I love big, audacious goals andearly in my career I had a big
moonshot, a big dream that Iwould become the president of a
film studio, president of abroadcast network.
It was really something that Iaspired to working in the
(04:09):
entertainment industry and I gotmy shot at that by being hired
by CBS in their children'sprogramming department and this
is back when there was Saturdaymorning kids programming, which
no longer exists.
And after two years in thatdepartment I was promoted to
prime time current programmingand that's like going from the
little league all the way to themajor leagues.
(04:30):
It was a big leap and it wasvery exciting, very thrilling.
After two years in thatdepartment I was promoted again
to the most coveted departmentat the network, which was drama
development, and I was part ofthe team that took the network
literally from last place tofirst place by developing the
CSI franchise, criminal Minds.
It was heady, it was exciting.
(04:51):
And after two years I waspromoted again to the head of
that department and that firstyear in that job I had the
highest testing pilots innetwork history.
And then after 10 years of beingat CBS, I was fired and I did
not see that coming at all andthat experience really pivoted
(05:15):
me and it took me about 10 yearsto realize that that the
emotions that I was feelingafter losing my job and I mean I
felt I was gutted it was really, really horrible.
I'm actually getting a littleemotional right now just like
thinking about it and relivingit.
(05:35):
And after about 10 years afterI was fired from CBS, I realized
that this emotional weight thatI was carrying it was grief.
Cbs, I realized that thisemotional weight that I was
carrying it was grief.
And when I gave myselfpermission to mourn that job
loss I was able to realize thatthat original dream that I had
of being a network president, itno longer applied to me and
(05:57):
what was really important to mewas being able to help people
not feel the way that I didafter a career setback.
So my mid-career pivot wasreally driven by a very bad
experience but it clarified forme what was really important to
my life and how I wanted my joband my career to reflect those
(06:17):
values.
John Neral (06:20):
So, laverne, I thank you for sharing all of that,
because for so many people rightnow here we are almost in the
middle of 2025.
This is when this episode isgoing to drop.
People are going through a lotof changes in their workplace.
Some are staying with jobsbecause they need to, some have
unexpectedly been fired, laidoff, ripped from their positions
(06:43):
, have unexpectedly been fired,laid off, ripped from their
positions, and to your point.
There is a lot to process whensomeone goes through an
unexpected loss in their job.
I'm wondering if you couldshare with us a little bit about
what was that first thought youhad when you were told you were
(07:09):
being fired, and how quicklymaybe your mind might've raced
in that moment to startprocessing everything.
Laverne McKinnon (07:19):
It was surreal because I did not see it coming
and, to be completelytransparent, I was in a
codependent relationship with myboss.
So when she came to me and toldme that I had become a
liability, my first instinct was, honestly, to make her world
(07:40):
better.
It's like, oh, if I'm thesource of pain, then I should
leave.
And I said it's like, oh, thenlet's settle out my contract,
let's talk to my lawyer.
She declined that offer and ittook several months for my
firing to become official.
But when it really hit me oflike, oh my gosh, wait a second,
(08:02):
I don't have to worry about myboss, how am I feeling?
It ripped me into a thousandpieces, because my identity was
so tied to my job.
It wasn't just the title or thesalary or the perks, or the
benefits or being in a positionof power.
It was about me being competentand capable, that I was someone
(08:24):
that could be relied upon, andI thought of CBS as my home.
And so I was shattered and Idid not know what to do next.
John Neral (08:35):
When you look back on that time, would you say that
being the senior VP of dramadevelopment was the job you
loved?
Laverne McKinnon (08:48):
the senior VP of drama development was the job
you loved.
I love that job so much becauseI was able to advocate for
writers, for talent whomarginalized talent, and I
really it's a great pride inthat and to be a part of a team
that was having such an impacton people's viewing.
And when CSI took off thoseprocedurals I mean it just
(09:14):
changed the entire network andto see how that happened and to
be associated with somethingthat was so commercially
successful is like yeah, thattotally fed my ego.
Sure yes, sure, yes.
John Neral (09:26):
Yeah, what would you say was the hardest thing about
working in the entertainmentindustry?
Because for many people andmyself included, as a child who
grew up in front of thetelevision set, when you talked
about taking CBS from the bottomto first, I remember that time.
I remember the network wars andthose kind of things before we
(09:48):
really had streaming servicesand so much more content and
entertainment on demand in termsof like.
What was that specifically likefor you?
(10:09):
In terms of being in such aposition of leadership and
authority and influence whereyou really could make change
that hadn't been made before.
Laverne McKinnon (10:18):
Well, I should put this into a little bit of a
bigger banner, which is John, Iam a recovering perfectionist
and a recovering people pleaser.
So the validation of beingbumped up and being a part of
this incredible moment in time,it was incredible and it was
(10:40):
really feeding my people,pleasing and being a
perfectionist and having thesegoalposts and really mixing my
metaphors here, but like gettingprojects across the finish line
.
That was so much of my identityand so it felt great in so many
(11:05):
ways where she would introduceme to people, she would put me
front and center, she wouldvalidate my ideas in public
settings and so, wow, it feltgolden.
I was like on a golden elevatoruntil I wasn't.
John Neral (11:15):
Right.
And so when that moment happensand you started processing
processing the shock, the grief,the upset, the anger, the
plethora of emotions that comewith all of that, one of the
things that struck me from ourpre-call conversation and
(11:36):
prepping for today'sconversation was and you shared
it openly at the beginning whichwas and you shared it openly at
the beginning which was it tookyou 10 years to fully process
everything that happened.
You and I get that, but whatwould you say to somebody who
might be listening, or maybesomeone in your past who has
said to you 10 years, that seemslike an awfully long time to
(12:00):
process.
How would you respond to that?
Laverne McKinnon (12:04):
Well, I would definitely go on the defensive.
John Neral (12:09):
Of course, and rightfully so.
Laverne McKinnon (12:12):
I understand the question and it's because I
did not know that I was grieving.
And if I had permission togrieve and I even knew about
this, I think it wouldn't havetaken me 10 years to understand
my experience.
And so there's a term in thebereavement community called
disenfranchised grief.
It's a term that's coined byKenneth Doka, dr Kenneth Doka
(12:36):
and it essentially means anytype of grief that is not openly
acknowledged, sociallyvalidated or publicly mourned,
and professional heartbreak.
It falls into the category ofdisenfranchised grief because,
hey, you should be lucky thatyou even had that experience.
Hey, laverne, you went on toother really awesome jobs, like
(12:56):
why are you so sad and you know?
Or people who have chosen toretire.
It's like, what's like, what'swrong with that?
Or, oh, you've been laid offbut you got chosen to retire.
It's like, what's like, what'swrong with that?
Or oh, you've been laid off butyou got a great package.
It's like you're getting paidfor a couple of months but
there's still a sense of lossand grief comes from attachment
(13:17):
and the depth of our attachment.
So I was deeply attached to myCBS job, so when I lost it, of
course I would feel grief.
You may have been in a jobwhere it's like, oh, it was just
a job, it was a paycheck, so ifyou left or you were laid off,
it's like I wasn't attached tothat.
I'm completely fine to move on.
So when we look at grief, wehave to take a look at what was
(13:40):
the depth of attachment.
And because I didn't understandthe depth of my attachment, and
then the loss of that leadingto grief, of course it took me
10 years.
It could have taken me myentire life, except I happened
to stumble upon this concept.
John Neral (13:57):
Hey there, you know that navigating a job search in
the middle of your career isn'tjust about updating your resume
or polishing your LinkedInprofile.
It's about making the rightmove without the overwhelm, and
doing it strategically.
That's why I created somethingjust for you.
The Mid-Career Job SearchJumpstart is a powerful
(14:18):
step-by-step guide designed tohelp you clarify your goals,
find time to job search andavoid making a move you'll
regret.
And here's the best part youcan grab the Jumpstart for just
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(14:39):
So to grab the Jumpstart, visitmy website at https://johnneral
.
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Together, let's take that firststep towards your next job or
promotion and start buildingyour mid-career GPS with greater
clarity, more confidence and aproven plan.
(15:08):
Now let's get back to theepisode, one of the things that
we're obviously living throughand seeing right now, especially
for me living in the WashingtonDC area.
We know there's been a lot ofcutbacks within the federal
government.
We know there are a lot ofpeople who have been laid off
and riffed and lost their jobsand everything, and one of the
most striking conversations I'vehad over the last couple weeks
(15:29):
and admittedly it's not been asolo conversation, as this
happens multiple times is thatfor people who are a little
further along at mid-career,where they may have years of
service in and they might beeligible for early retirement,
one of the things I'm hearingfrom people that is quite
honestly angering them is thatpeople will say, oh, but you've
(15:52):
got early retirement, you'refine, and their rebuttal is but
I'm not ready.
How does that fit into thisconcept that you see time and
time again and have experiencedabout professional heartbreak
and disenfranchised grief?
Laverne McKinnon (16:15):
I love this question so much, John, because
one of I'm going to back up fora second.
Sure, we believe that there arerules to grief.
It's like, oh, you need to talkabout your feelings, you really
have to cry it out.
You should go to a supportgroup.
The truth is that there are norules to grief.
(16:35):
Everyone griefs uniquely,individualistically, informed by
our cultures, by ourcommunities, by our religious or
spiritual beliefs.
However, there are tasks togrief, and so one of the tasks
to grief it's the last one isexactly what you're talking
about, which is agency that Iactually am in control and I'm
(16:59):
empowered to make decisionsabout what's best for my life.
So being invited, encouraged,pushed into early retirement, it
robs someone of agency, and sothat is a huge component to
grief, which is like, wait asecond, I didn't have a chance
to have a good goodbye.
John Neral (17:19):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah,
absolutely.
You shared an activity or aconcept with me when we talked
previously about helping peoplewrite a eulogy for that chapter
(17:40):
or part in their career.
Would you tell us why that's soimportant and impactful to do?
Laverne McKinnon (17:47):
Yes, so it's very common when someone dies
that there is a ritual.
There might be a funeral, amemorial service, a gathering in
which we can acknowledge ourfeelings for that person and
have an opportunity to expressourselves.
So very much with professionalheartbreaks or career setbacks,
(18:12):
we can create rituals aroundthat so that we can have a good
goodbye, and one of the manyrituals that I've worked with
clients.
I work a lot with people in theentertainment industry, a lot of
writers who have writtensomething, a script, that never
sees the light of day, or maybethey got their movie produced
(18:35):
and then it didn't do well inthe box office, and so we'll
actually print the script outand we'll bury it, we'll burn it
, but the most important part ofit, honestly, is writing the
eulogy.
And so I had one client whowrote a eulogy, apologizing to
the script, to say I'm sorrythat I did not get you across
(18:59):
the finish line, I'm sorry thatnot everyone could see just how
amazing and wonderful and howfull of possibility you were,
and then these final words,which are just, I think,
incredibly powerful, which is?
Rest in peace.
And so this client was able toexpress their hopes and their
dreams and their wishes for thisproject, what it meant to them,
(19:22):
but then also to have that goodgoodbye.
John Neral (19:28):
So for people who are dealing with their own job
loss or professional grief rightnow, how would they go about
saying goodbye to thatorganization, that job, that
work where they didn't get thatchance to say goodbye?
Laverne McKinnon (19:52):
Yes.
So I'm going to go back to thisidea of the tasks of grief, and
there's a framework that Ideveloped and I call it LEARN.
It's L-E-A-R-N.
So the first task of grief isto really look at the loss laid
off by the federal governmentand again, like that's that,
(20:15):
that first level of loss, whichis absolutely legitimate, is the
job.
But underneath that perhapsthere was a belief that if I
work for the federal government,I will have safety and security
, I'll be able to stay in thisjob for my entire career and
grow and blossom and do goodthings for the public.
So and then, like looking again, like what's underneath that,
(20:37):
so it might be a loss of like,for example, with me, like my
identity, my confidence, myesteem.
So that first step is reallycritical to understand what is
the loss and what are all thetentacles of the loss.
And then exploring the meaning.
What does this mean?
So a few federal workers that Ihave spoken to and it really
(20:57):
does break my heart that thatthe meaning that they're
creating as a result of nolonger having their job with the
federal government is oh, Iwasn't good enough, I wasn't
worthy, I didn't work hardenough, I'm too old, I'm too
young, and so we create meaningsto explain events that we don't
understand.
(21:17):
So it's important tointerrogate and reframe that
meaning so that it's helpful,not hurtful.
And then we have to address thepain and this goes to the
rituals that you and I justspoke about, john, of being able
to create a ritual that allowsyou to address the pain that
you're feeling.
And then that final step isnurturing agency and regaining
(21:40):
that sense of control.
John Neral (21:44):
It's a really helpful framework.
I hope people will hit thatrewind button a couple of times
to go back and go through.
So those five steps were tounderstand, go beneath the loss,
to really explore what that is.
So it's loss, explore, address,regain and nurture or reframe.
(22:05):
Reframe, sorry, reframe andnurture, okay.
Laverne McKinnon (22:08):
Yes, really good.
John Neral (22:10):
You said something in explaining this framework
around the explore part, whichwas that thought that could come
up about?
I wasn't good enough or, torephrase, maybe my work wasn't
good enough or there's somethingas an expert in this field.
When you're working with peoplewho are dealing with being
(22:33):
unexpectedly fired or they'vebeen laid off from a job, how do
you help them work through thefacts and the emotions of their
natural questioning that maybethey should have saw this coming
?
Laverne McKinnon (22:53):
Yeah, that's also a phrase that I've heard
quite frequently as well, in thesense of shame and blame and
humiliation that goes with that,and I like to practice and
(23:14):
encourage the people that I workwith to assess and not judge.
It's very important not to fallinto, while reframing the
meaning of what happened, into aplace of toxic positivity.
We are professionals.
We need to be able to assesswhat worked, what didn't work,
what needs to be coursecorrected, what do we double
down on?
And so there may be an elementof truth to say, oh, I missed
(23:36):
the signs.
And then it's not to stay inthat place, but then to identify
through data, not drama, whatwere the circumstances in which
I missed those signs.
And so those are skills andtools that can then be
incredibly valuable for theremainder of one's career and
(23:58):
professional life.
So, for me, I felt tension in myrelationship with my CBS boss.
I wrongly attributed it to thestress of what we were doing and
I just assumed oh, once wedeliver the pilots for the
season, you know we'll go take avacation and we'll be back to
happy times again.
So what I have learned is thatif I'm feeling something to get
(24:24):
curious and if I could have donesomething differently.
It could have been and itdoesn't mean that my boss would
have been honest with me but Icould have advocated to say hey,
I'm feeling some tension in ourrelationship.
Are you feeling that?
And if so, what is that?
John Neral (24:40):
Yeah, thank you for that.
That's good, and showing upfrom that place of curiosity can
be extremely powerful as wenavigate our careers and build
our mid-career GPS to whatever'sgoing to be next.
Before we start wrapping up,though, laverne, I want to touch
on one other thing that we'vepreviously talked about, and
(25:03):
that's how we process these typeof events in our career, and
one of the things I remember wasand the word we had used was
failure.
Right, we learn to processfailure, and obviously not
trying to equate here that beingfired is a failure in that
regard right, but to your point,you talk about how processing
(25:27):
failure the unprocessed failureleads to a loss of resilience,
and resilience is required for along, fulfilling career.
Yes, I'd love to know how thishas shaped your resilience.
Laverne McKinnon (25:46):
Another awesome question, which is the
and I'm going to go specificallyback to grieving and mourning
because once I knew I wasgrieving and I gave myself
permission to mourn.
I was going to go specificallyback to grieving and mourning
because once I knew I wasgrieving and I gave myself
permission to mourn, I was ableto interrogate that meaning that
I was creating, because walkingaround for a decade thinking
that I'm worthless, stupid andnot capable anymore, it wasn't
(26:12):
helping me on any level.
And so once I was able toreframe and say, oh, my values
no longer aligned after 10 yearswith CBS, I didn't belong there
anymore.
I didn't fit into the culture,that negative self-talk.
It was like a lid over myresilience cup.
And when I was able to removethe negative self-talk, I was
(26:44):
then able to fill thatresilience cup with hey, wait a
second.
I'm a great learner.
I'm someone who is committedand dedicated.
I am curious.
I do have this depth ofexperience, I do have the skill
set, and so it was able to helpme get back onto course and to
clarify what truly is my NorthStar, my moonshot.
(27:07):
And resilience is a little bitlike willpower.
It's in the sense that it canget used up, it's not an endless
well.
And so compassion, self-care,checking in with ourselves and
assessing where am I at in mycareer right now?
Does it feel good to me?
Am I aligned with my values?
Those are all things thatimpact our resilience.
(27:30):
It can impact our resilience ina negative and a positive way.
So if we're not doing thatstuff, so now I feel so much
more equipped, when setbackshappen, to check in with myself
of like, okay, how attached wasI to that particular person,
place or thing?
And then, if I was deeplyattached, let me mourn.
(27:51):
If I wasn't, then let me justskip over into assessment and
figure out, okay, what needed tobe course corrected and what
new best practices do I need todevelop.
John Neral (28:01):
What's the most exciting thing about your work
today?
Laverne McKinnon (28:10):
Oh, it's the.
This is going to sound so hokey, which is why you're hearing
this like pause in my voice, butit's really two things is that
when I am working with a clientor I'm talking to someone about
this concept of disenfranchisedgrief and professional
heartbreaks, and their face goes, oh, that's what's going on,
(28:33):
and it's a huge aha.
And it immediately gives apathway of how to be able to
move forward and stop feelingstuck.
That just is so unbelievablyexciting.
And then the other excitingpart is like then seeing that
transformation occur.
It's like, oh, now that I'vereframed what happened in a way
(28:55):
that's actually helpful to me,now that I've reframed what
happened in a way that'sactually helpful to me, and then
seeing people activate on thatoh my gosh, that's just.
It makes me a little weepy tothink about.
John Neral (29:06):
Well, your work is extremely impactful and it's
needed and to work with peoplewho are wanting to take the time
to go through, be curious,explore this entire process
about what this means for themin their lives and careers.
That's a special relationship,you know, and that's something
(29:27):
which, right now, witheverything we're dealing with,
that's a gift, so thank you forthat.
Laverne McKinnon (29:34):
Thank you.
John Neral (29:34):
All right, we're gonna start wrapping up here, so
I have to ask what advice wouldyou give someone today to help
them build their mid-career GPS?
Laverne McKinnon (29:46):
I really do want to circle back to this idea
of professional heartbreaks andthat, as you're recalibrating
your GPS, is to just do a littlebit of an audit and to reflect
back on your career to say, oh,was there a heartbreak here?
Was there a heartbreak there,is there something that maybe is
(30:08):
unresolved and am I feelinggrief?
And if you are to do the workto really process those feelings
so that you can come out theother side with a clear North
Star, Wonderful.
John Neral (30:25):
So if people want to connect with you, laverne,
learn more about you, find whereyou are.
I'm going to turn the mic overto you.
Share all the great thingswhere people can connect with
you.
Laverne McKinnon (30:33):
Oh, thank you so much.
So, if you know, of course I'mon this podcast, so your
listeners are navigating careertransitions, and in the place
that I would love to invite yourlisteners to is to join me on
Substack, the Substack platform.
You can find me under LaverneMcKinnon or Moonshot Mentor.
It's free to subscribe and Ihave weekly blogs and podcasts
(30:56):
with a lot of tools aroundcareer transitions.
There's also a paid tier.
It's $5 a month and paidsubscribers get access to
co-working sessions, meditations.
I'm also going to be launchingin late April a five-part career
grief workshop and that'll alsobe available on replay, and
(31:16):
I'll do another one, you know,later in the summer and fall.
But it's a beautiful, beautifulcommunity, so that's the
primary place.
And then my website is also myname, lavernemckinnoncom, with
more specific ways to connectwith me and the services that I
offer.
John Neral (31:32):
Yeah, I will make sure all of that is in the show
notes.
Laverne McKinnon, thank you forcoming on and sharing your
story and just being a greatperson and great guest today.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
All right, my friends, wetalked a lot, a lot of things
today and a lot of things thatperhaps weren't really easy to
hear, and so if you made it tothe end of the episode, pat
(31:53):
yourself on the back, that's areally good thing.
But as much as we talked aboutprofessional heartbreak and
grieving that job that you love,I don't want you to miss one
key point of Laverne's messagetoday, which was, as you're
building your mid-career GPS,there's a moonshot in there.
What's next?
Where are you resilient enoughto go after that next thing?
(32:16):
You are here because you are arepresentation of the totality
of your experiences, both inyour life and in your work, and
so, while work's important andwork's great and everything, if
you're at the middle of acrossroads, you're trying to
navigate your mid-career GPS towhatever is next, don't forget
to look for that moonshot and goafter it, because that's a
(32:39):
really great place to land andgo after.
So we wish you all the bestwith that and until next time my
friends remember this you willbuild your mid-career GPS one
mile or one step at a time, andhow you show up matters.
Make it a great rest of yourday.
Thank you for listening to theMid-Career GPS Podcast.
Make sure to follow on yourfavorite listening platform and,
(33:02):
if you have a moment, I'd loveto hear your comments on Apple
Podcasts.
Visit johnnerrellcom for moreinformation about how I can help
you build your mid-career GPSor how I can help you and your
organization with your nextworkshop or public speaking
event.
Don't forget to connect with meon LinkedIn and follow me on
social at John Darrell Coaching.
(33:23):
I look forward to being backwith you next week.
Until then, take care andremember how we show up matters.
Thank you.
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