December 8, 2023 • 48 mins
In this episode of "The Middle with Jeremy Hobson," we're asking whether or not you think democracy itself is at stake in the 2024 election - or if those fears are overblown. Jeremy is joined by Maricopa County, Arizona Supervisor Bill Gates and Vernon Burton, a voting rights expert and professor of history at Clemson University. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. The question this
hour is a very simple one. Is democracy itself at
stake in next year's election? Our number is eight four
four four Middle. That is eight four four four six
four three three five three. We want to hear from
you if you're a Republican, a Democrat and independent, if
you think democracy is at stake, or if you think
(00:26):
the concerns are overblown. Tolliver is joining us from Nashville
Public Radio this hour. Hi, Tolliver from the Music City tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
That's right, the Music City. Actually, this morning I got
to interview Olivia Hill, the first trans elected official in Tennessee.
For a lot of folks, her election is a great
example of democracy, you know, a direct response of voters
to trans healthcare restrictions right that we've.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Been talking about this year. Absolutely, you know, Tulliver. We've
been asking the big questions on this show Democracy this Hour,
But last week we asked people about how they tend
to their mental health and if they have access to care.
It was a very powerful episode. Take a listen to
some of the voicemails that we got.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
This is Teresa and I'm calling from Mount Carmel, Illinois.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
My name is Casey calling from Greeley, Colorado.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
This is Carolyn from Pittsburgh.
Speaker 6 (01:13):
My name is Matt. I am a recently retired thirty
plus year police veteran. I've dealt a lot with mental health.
I'm currently under therapy with the VA.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
We need to just reframe the discussion about mental illness
because it is a brain disease.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
The mental health crisis in our country is obviously horrific,
but in my opinion, it's the same as the addiction
crisis and overall lack of healthcare in general.
Speaker 5 (01:45):
My current mental health practices are grounded in intense cardio
spin classes in weightlifting. Trauma informed weightlifting has been proven
to positively impact PTSD and other mental health issues. That's
what I'm doing.
Speaker 7 (02:01):
Well.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Thanks to everyone who called in so this hour. Again,
our question is is democracy itself at stake in the
twenty twenty four election. Unfortunately Judy Woodriff of PBS, who
was going to join us, is not feeling well. But
we are so excited to welcome two terrific panel guests.
Bill Gates is a county supervisor from Maricopa County, Arizona.
That's where Phoenix is He's a Republican, but in his
(02:22):
role as a high profile election official in the twenty
twenty and twenty twenty two elections, he faced harassment and
threats to his safety from some of his fellow Republicans.
Bill Gates, Welcome to the middle.
Speaker 8 (02:34):
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Jeremy and joining us from Clemson, South Carolina. Is Vernon Burton,
an expert on electoral systems and voting rights. He's professor
of history at Clemson University and author of many books,
including the Age of Lincoln and Justice Deferred. Vernon Burton,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 9 (02:51):
Thank you, always a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Well, before we get to calls, Bill Gates, I want
to just ask you for people who don't know your story.
When you were running elections in Maricopa County, you received
vile emails and social media posts, even death threats. It
got so bad that you and your family had to
flee your home and on election day in twenty twenty two,
you were moved to an undisclosed location. Can you just
(03:15):
describe the type of pressure you were under as an
election official and is that why you decided to step
down at the end of your term.
Speaker 8 (03:23):
So again, thanks for having me on the show. First
of all, that's not why I've decided not to run again.
By the way, I will be serving through the end
of twenty twenty four and so we will be having
another high profile election next year. But I've served between
the Phoenix City Council and the Maricopa County Voters Supervisors
for fourteen years. But this was a This has been
(03:48):
a very challenging environment for all of us, both those
of us on the border supervisors are county recorder and
the people who were involved in elections. These are people
who have committed their lives to being a part of
our American democracy, and unfortunately they have received, as you described,
(04:09):
vile threats of really indescribable levels, whether it's been in emails,
whether it's been voicemails that they've received, whether it has
been people leaving at the end of the day after
working a fourteen to sixteen hour day on an election
having pictures taken of them, pictures taking of their license plates.
(04:33):
It's unacceptable and that's why my colleagues and I have
spoken out against it for the past few years.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Vernon Burton, you've been testifying at various hearings around the
country regarding new voting laws enacted since the last presidential election.
Do you think that democracy is at stake in next
year's election.
Speaker 9 (04:56):
I'm not sure it's just in next year's election.
Speaker 10 (05:01):
I fear that most of us are think of democracy
as static. There's always been there, but democracy changes, the
ideas of democracy changes, and I think a lot.
Speaker 9 (05:16):
Is at stake in this election.
Speaker 10 (05:19):
It could certainly undermine what has been a bedrock, at
least since Lincoln, the rule of law, that you have
to have some common ground for people to accept the
premises of democracy. And it reminds me very much of
the Civil War era you had at that time, the
(05:40):
rise of authoritarianism. When Lincoln said that the United States
was the last best hope, he meant it because the
rest of the world was moving back from democracy and
republics toward authoritarian and monarchies. And in fact, the Confederacy
was much more in line with the rest of the world.
And so it to me. There's no such thing as
(06:03):
exact parallels. But since eighteen sixty, I think democracy is
imperiled and challenged more now than any other time.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Wow, again, our number is eight four four four Middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five three.
Let's go to the phones, and Allan is joining us
from Laramie, Wyoming. Allan, welcome to the middle. Go ahead.
Speaker 11 (06:29):
I absolutely believe that democracy is on the ballot in
twenty twenty four. Donald Trump, in my view, isn't leading
a movement to advocate for conservative policy issues like Hayley
Christy or even Ron DeSantis is. He's focused on getting
(06:50):
power and keeping it. And if January sixth has taught
us anything, that he's willing to shred the Constitution for
his own gain.
Speaker 12 (06:58):
And I wouldn't believe.
Speaker 11 (07:00):
Him for a second when he says that he's only
going to be a dictator for one day, and we
heard that from him in his interview with Sean Handy
just yesterday.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Said that this week. Yeah, Alan, thank you for that
call of Bill Gates. I'm going to go to you
on that. I am sure we are going to hear
a lot about Donald Trump this hour, but your thoughts
there on what we just heard from Larry me.
Speaker 8 (07:22):
Wyoming, Well, Look, this is it's very important that in
our role on the Americopa County Board of Supervisors, we
understand that the election is going to come down to
a few swing states, and certainly within those swing states
and number of swing counties, Americopa County is one of them.
And so it is very important. And this is what
(07:43):
we've done since twenty twenty, is that we have provided
the facts about how our elections are run. We're going
to continue to do that, and people who want to
spread misinformation about our elections, we're going to respond to it.
We're going to continue to provide the facts. But it's
important that everyone understand this is you know, this is
(08:07):
as I've said many times before, it's a simple math problem, okay.
And we have people who have concerns about how our
elections are run. We have a Republican and a Democrat
in the room watching the tabulation, watching how it's run.
We have a twenty four to seven livestream camera. So
(08:28):
that happened in twenty it had happened in twenty two,
and it's going to happen in twenty four. And in
the end, whoever gets the most votes is going to
is going to at least Americopa County. That'll be the
person that wins Maricopa County, and beyond that Arizona. That's
what we're focused on. We're focused on the facts, and
we're focused on who has received the most votes.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Vernon Burton, by the way, you have testified I believe
in Arizona, in Maricopa County about new voting regulations, right.
Speaker 10 (09:00):
Laws that have been proposed and passed but not enacted. Yes,
I believe it was November the fourteenth.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
And do you think that some of the laws that
have been enacted or at least proposed around the country,
especially in swing states like Bill Gates is is talking about,
are going to make a difference in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 10 (09:21):
I think they will, particularly the ones that are being
proposed in Arizona. Some of them are just intimidating, particularly
the minority voters. Bill knows more than I do, but
it has been an issue for Native Americans for a
long time getting there. Some of the rules are as
(09:44):
I read them and as I interpret them, are almost
like traps to find ways to trap people to make
a mistake, and that can be very intimidating. There's similar
laws in Florida and Georgia that I've been involved with
and testified on. And the big question is, as Bill says,
(10:05):
those elections in Georgia and Arizona are probably the most
closely monitored and honest elections. As Brad Raefinsberger said in Georgia,
you know, and as the governor said that they were
extraordinarily careful. And yet what you hear are accusations of
voter fraug And that's something that's really sort of new,
(10:30):
but goes back to an old trope of reconstruction that
points toward minorities of what social scientists called doll whistles.
You no longer use the language you used to use.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
We are also getting some comments in online. Donna writes
at listen Tothemiddle dot com. In my lifetime, I am
seventy six. I believe democracy has been under thread at
least since Congress passed the Patriot Act in two thousand
and two, and is dangerously so. Today. I worried about
my grandchildren's future. My son and his family live in Canada,
(11:04):
which he believes is a truer guardian of democracy than
today's United States. You can reach out to us and
Listen to the Middle dot com. You can also reach
us on social media. I'm at Jeremy Hobson on x
formerly known as Twitter. You know Tolliver. In order for
democracy to work, there has to be some level of trust,
and polling data from Pugh shows that overall trust in
(11:26):
government was higher even during the Watergate scandal than it
is now, and it has only declined since then.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, that's right, Jeremy. Here's John Dean, who served as
White House counsel for Richard Nixon, talking with C and
n Jim Acosta about some of the parallels between Watergate
and the current moment in American politics.
Speaker 13 (11:44):
The fact that the Republican Party has picked up a
lot of this as their norm is one of the
reasons I'm writing books about authoritarianism. And if we don't
learn the lesson, democracy is in trouble. It doesn't function
well under authoritarian rule.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
And we've got many more calls coming up. Stay with
us the Middle. We'll be right back. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle
is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating
voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe
you just want to meet in the middle. I'm joined
by Vernon Burton, Professor of history at Clemson University and
(12:22):
an expert on electoral systems and voting rights. And Maricopa
County Arizona Supervisor Bill Gates, a high profile election official
who is stepping down next year after facing harassment on
the job. We're asking you, is democracy itself at stake
in the twenty twenty four elections? Tolliver, what's that number again?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
It's eight four four four Middle, that's eight four four
four six four three three five three.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
And I'm going to go right to the phones. And Albert,
who's joining us from Saint Louis, Missouri. Hi, Albert, welcome
to the middle. Do you think democracy is at stake
in next year's election?
Speaker 14 (12:58):
Yes, and a big, big, big dread to democracy. But
American democracy is not only under dread in twenty twenty four,
it's actually under dread right now. It's been constantry under dread.
If you look at all the issues of jerymandering in
(13:26):
most of the states, and if you also look at
like the issue that's happened in Florida where almost a
million people look like American democracy is a struggling democracy.
I came to this country from Kenya almost twenty years ago,
but I see the same problem that are very young
(13:46):
democracy like Kenya. It's they are still the same problem
that democracy United States, which has been there for almost
two hundred years.
Speaker 6 (13:57):
It's expediency.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
You see this. You see the same issues in Kenya
as you see in the United States in terms of
the democracy exactly.
Speaker 14 (14:06):
The threat to democracy in Kenya is almost a cinema
because some people are just said making a difference boundaries
depending on who they want to win and who where.
Speaker 12 (14:20):
They want to win.
Speaker 14 (14:21):
The Kenyan problem is more table. But also here is
about the two political parties.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Let me ask you, Albert, are you a US citizen?
Are you able to vote? And do you vote in
elections in the United States?
Speaker 14 (14:34):
I do vote in every election. I'm a very very
strong believer in democracy.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Great, well, thank you very much for that call. Bill Gates,
I'll go to you on that. You know Albert's view
that US democracy has always been in peril for the
entire time he's been in this country twenty years.
Speaker 8 (14:52):
He says, well, I appreciate Albert calling in. We actually
have a daughter who is from Yugan, and so I've
talked with her a lot about some of the issues
with some of the African countries. And this is pretty
unprecedented some of the challenges that we're facing in the US.
(15:13):
And you know, I've had some of these discussions with
my daughter. But look, here's the bottom line, and people
need to understand this. We're having challenges, but we also
have the world's oldest democracy. We have people, and we
have some people who are retiring after years and elections,
but we've got people throughout this country who have worked
(15:36):
for decades. And let me be clear, these are not
robots that are running elections. These are your neighbors, this
is your aunt, this is your grandmother, And these people
around the country have held strong as people have been
challenging our democracy. And I think, you know, let's look
at the good side of this, right, let's look at
(15:57):
the bright side. American democracy held in twenty twenty, American
democracy held in twenty twenty two. Is it under thread
again in twenty twenty four. Yes, But I am an
optimist by nature, I'll tell you that. But it's going
to take people across this country being focused on this election,
(16:18):
making sure that there are a lot of eyeballs on
this and making sure that in the end, those people
who get the most votes are those to win the elections.
So do we need to be focused, Yes, but I
am confident about where we're at with this democracy as
we look forward to what might be the most important
election in the history of this country.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Let's go to another call, also from Saint Louis. Eric
is joining us from Saint Louis. Eric, welcome to the
middle go ahead.
Speaker 15 (16:48):
Thank you so much, thanks for having me.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
Jeremy.
Speaker 15 (16:51):
So, I'm a navy veteran. I'm one of the closest
sixty percent of military veterans who's never joined or affiliated
with either major party. And we're most concerned about the
structural clause with our system that doesn't allow the sixty
percent of Americans who are independents to even fully participate
(17:11):
in our own American democracy. So that's really what I'm
most concerned about in twenty twenty four, and beyond.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
That, you as an independent, can't participate in the primary
system exactly.
Speaker 15 (17:24):
I mean in twenty twenty it was twenty six million
Americans live in closed primary states. So if any party
is going to claim to be pro democracy, I find
it really confusing that they would oppose something as simple
as open primary elections.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
A great point, Eric, Thank you. So much for that call.
Vernon Burton, I'll go to you on that. The primary system.
You know, people, as we've even been talking about this
show the Middle, we've said, you know, primary elections are
one on the fringes, the general election is one in
the middle. But what about our primary system? Is that
in itself a threat to us democracy because it it
does force people to go out to the edges.
Speaker 9 (18:03):
Well, one of the problems, and maybe I shouldn't say problem.
I agree with Bill.
Speaker 10 (18:06):
We have worked and a lot of people didn't think
democracy had a chance when it began with the American Revolution.
We've got to remember it's always been sort of under challenge.
But we're not a parliamentary form of government. It's a
winner take all, at least with the president and certainly
some other offices, so you don't get anything for second place.
(18:28):
One of the problems with the primaries though, is and
I see it both ways. You can make arguments. I'm
going to make this loan, but I have particularly seen
where people will go from one party to vote in
the other primary to try to get a candidate they
think that they can beat from their party. So it
gets very tough on this whole idea. As long as
(18:49):
it's parties and we only have two major parties, we
can go on and on. But it's a complicated question.
But I feel for those people who feel they don't
have an opportunity. What I would advise is to look
at the two parties, look at the candidates, select which
one you would want to vote in. Our third party
(19:10):
if they're having primaries, would be the best way under
the structural system that we have, and the parties have
really become a new kind of factor because we're so bipartisan.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Now let's go to another call. Abdul is joining us
from Minneapolis. Abdul, Welcome to the middle.
Speaker 7 (19:31):
Go ahead, Hey, Mike, queston is what role will lobbying have?
What role will it play in the coming future. You know,
our generation as a whole starting to wake up to
realize how much lobbying impacts our elections. You know, there
(19:52):
was a I don't know candidate that was running that
recently said she was offered twenty million dollars to run
against I think Rashida's or something like that. And you
know a lot of a lot of even laws are
being made that you know, if you boycott, for example, Israel,
you will be fined or things will be taking actually
(20:14):
will be taken against you. So you know, it's it's
a huge threat to our democracy. And you know, we
just want to know what role of that play in
the future.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Lobbying, Okay, if we've got it, Uh, Bill Gates, you
know it's not just lobbying, but I guess money in
politics in general. Uh, you know the citizens United Supreme
Court decision. Uh, do you think, especially as a Republican,
do you think that that has been harmful to us democracy?
Speaker 8 (20:41):
So, you know, I'm someone who believes in transparency in sunlight.
I've talked about that a lot. We've done that a
lot in Amercopa County in twenty twenty two, We're very proud.
I think we ran the most transparent election ever. We
had sixteen press conferences educating people about how we run
the elections. And so when it comes to money, I
(21:04):
think that the people deserve the right to know what
money is being spent on these elections. The First Amendment
creates a certain right to participate, to engage in political speech,
and people may choose that the way they want to
engage in political speech is by donating money. As long
as the people, and everyone may not agree with me
on your show, and that's okay. But as long as
(21:26):
the people know who's paying that money, which candidates they're
paying for, and they know that before they have the
right to vote, I'm okay with that. I think that
I have great faith in the American people that they
can cut through what's going on and they can make
the decision that they believe is best for them and
(21:46):
their families.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Vernon Burton, you know, one of the things about the
way that elections are running this country is that it's
not managed at the federal level. There are thousands of
elections going on across the country being handled by different people.
Do you think that that is a good thing or
a bad thing in terms of the health of our
democracy overall?
Speaker 10 (22:09):
Well, I do believe in little d democracy, Jeremy, and
this is more of an opinion as a historian, but
I loved it when it's from the ground level. The
problem is often these will be unregulated and not as
open as bills suggest. But you mentioned Citizens United. I
think people do not realize what that has done because
(22:33):
it means we don't know who's giving money and how much,
and it's huge. It probably we focus so much on
the voting laws, but I would argue that maybe Citizens
United opening up of all things, overturning the Tilman at
Ben Tilman, the demagogue from the South who had wanted
(22:54):
to regulate railroads, had kept at least that it would
be clear who was giving you money. So I think
that has undermined democracy in many ways, more than all
the voting law changes that have come about.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Let's go to Angie in Mountain Grove, Missouri. Angie, welcome
to the middle. Go ahead. Do you think democracy is
at stake in next year's election?
Speaker 16 (23:20):
Oh definitely. I mean, we have politicians doing things that
if one of our siblings or a parent or friend
did it, we would chastise them and really have a
big discussion. And yet people are supporting people that are
pulling things on a continual basis and going it's okay,
I like them, We'll let them do it anyway. The
(23:40):
standards are gone. I mean calling and saying you need
to find me votes, being disrespectful to people in interviews,
blaming people for something one of their family members is
doing when they had nothing to do with it, just
because they wanted to be their political advantage. We're in trouble.
(24:02):
People are supporting people that they wouldn't even be friends with.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Angie, thank you very much for that call. And uh next,
I want to actually go to a call Tulliver. You
can maybe help me out with this because this it's
the first city that I don't know how to FA
got a call from. Is it Mankato, Minnesota? Ben, man Caato,
man Cato, Beth, Is that right, man Caato, Minnesota.
Speaker 17 (24:30):
Yeah, we're downfouth here in Mankato.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Man Cato. Okay, Well, welcome to the middle and go
ahead with your your comment of your question about democracy.
Speaker 17 (24:39):
I'm I'm more concerned with primaries. I think in primaries
we get fast, we are out there, Kamith, So I
try to be pretty strategic. I'm pretty convinced I'm not
going to get somebody elected in the party of my choice.
So in the primaries, I actually choose.
Speaker 16 (25:01):
To vote.
Speaker 17 (25:03):
On the other side and have my fay to get
a more reasonable candidate. In Minnesota, you can only vote
one side of the ticket, like literally, it is one
side of the ticket. So I won't have a say
on my party side, but I get a more reasonable
candidate on the other side.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
So you're not trying to be You're not trying to sorry, Beth,
You're not trying to be strategic and get somebody who's
going to be easier for your party to beat. You
Actually just want to have two.
Speaker 17 (25:35):
Good No, no exactly, I just want somebody reasonable. Like
the last time I did this, and I don't do
it all the time. Mostly I just vote my side,
but the last one was like, oh my god, that's
the Marjorie Taylor's Green candidate. I have to have my
(25:56):
faith there. And like I said, this is such a
small percentage of people that actually vote in primary. Right
to me, you made a lot of sense to use
my vote in that way, and I'm hoping there might
have done four hundred people like me that did that
(26:17):
and we kept the crazy from getting them.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Well, Beth, thank you for that call. I'm going to
sneak in one more call here before I go to
our guest. Ton Sue is calling from Tallahassee, Florida. Ton Sue,
Welcome to the middle.
Speaker 18 (26:31):
I think that the most important domestic issue for the
next selection is democracy. That's the number one issue for general.
Other than domestic, it's the climate change, of course, and
Russia but to save democracy in America, there should be
ranked choice body. There is no other way. And the
politicians in the state yet, the politicians in the states,
(26:53):
the legislatures, they're not going to put these voting systems
into their states because there is a guess they're own interest.
So the only thing that can be done, the best
initiative is why the citizens should be put in two
ballots in doing these elections, and there should be constitutional
amendments by the citizens to put the rank choice voting
(27:16):
into their election systems, like in Alaska, so exactly exams
voices getting elected constant.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, they do it in Alaska, TANSI, thank you very much.
Let me get to our guests on that Vernon Burton
ranked choice voting where you sort of you know, if
if your number one choice doesn't get it, you can
say this is who my number two would be. Does
that would that help? Do you think American democracy?
Speaker 9 (27:38):
A lot of political scientists believe so.
Speaker 10 (27:40):
In Jeremy, Illinois at one time had a ranked choice
voting and I've forgotten some state just recently and I'm
blinking on it just did it, and uh, I think
people are pretty satisfied with it. It does help get
away from the streams. As our earlier spoken about.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I think Bill Gates, the caller there Tansu said that
it was politicians who are keeping ranked choice voting from happening.
What are your thoughts on it? As as an elected.
Speaker 8 (28:11):
Person well as an elections official. We actually may have
an item this year that would establish ranked choice voting
in Arizona. So, because I play an important role in
running our elections, I don't endorse candidates. I don't and
and so I'm not going to comment on this particular
(28:32):
item that that comes in front of us, because I
think it's important that people, you know, do not feel
that my personal views on this might impact how the
election turns out. But I know it's an issue that
a lot of people are talking about, and I think
the discussion is healthy about where our democracy moves into
the future.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Again, we are also hearing from people online armand asks
even if Donald Trump doesn't win, what will happen to
our democracy if candidates who who's the popular vote keep
winning the presidency because of the electoral College. You can
write into us at listen to Themiddle dot com, and
when you go there, you can either email us or
(29:11):
reach out to us on social media. All of our
socials are there, you know, Tolliver, It is not just
Democrats who think democracy is at risk. A you gov
poll from June found that ten percent of Democrats rate
their satisfaction with our democracy at zero out of ten.
But for Republicans it's thirty eight percent that rated at
(29:31):
zero out of ten.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
That's right. Here's Ryan Zinke, a Republican congressman from Montana,
speaking last January about the forming of a new Congressional
Committee on the Weaponization of the Federal government.
Speaker 19 (29:43):
Despite the Deep Stakes repeatedly attempts to stop me, I
stand before you, as a duly elected member of the
United States Congress and tell you that a deep state
exists and is perhaps the strongest covert weapon the left
has against the American.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
That was Ryan Zink. Wow, what a voice on Ryan's
like you had no idea.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Well, what a voice on our guest Vernon Burton too.
Don't you love that accent? We will We're back with
more of the middle in a moment. This is the middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're talking about whether democracy itself is
at stake in the twenty twenty four election. Our number
is eight four four four middle. That is eight four
four four six four three three five three. You can
(30:26):
also reach out to us at Listen to the Middle
dot com. Our guests are Maricopa County, Arizona Supervisor Bill Gates,
who's an election official there, and Vernon Burton, professor of
history at Clemson University, an expert on electoral systems and
voting rights, and author of many books, including the Age
of Lincoln and Justice Deferred. Before we go back to
(30:47):
the phones, Vernon Burton, there are those who say that
the concerns about democracy are overblown. I was recently watching
John Bolton, the former national security advisor for President Trump,
who is no fan of Trump, but he said the
system worked on January sixth, and in the end, there
was a peaceful transfer of power. What about that?
Speaker 10 (31:08):
You know, as a student of the Civil War, I
find it interested in that Robert E. Lee, as good
as general he was, did not get the Confederate flag
in the capitol. So I would say that was pretty.
Speaker 9 (31:19):
Dramatic and symbolic. Jeremy.
Speaker 10 (31:22):
And to go back to a couple of things Bill
said very quickly, I'm reminded of two quotes because I
think there is a way out of this real challenge
to democracy, and that is Henry Adams, who was a
great grandson of John Adams, a president, wrote in his
autobioph The Education of Henry Adams, that the American mind
(31:44):
quote stood alone in history for the ignorance of his past.
And I think that's important because I think you do
need education for a democracy, and I am all for
stem education, but I think the humanities and particularly history
and what we used to call civics, is so important
(32:06):
to understand, and particularly at a time now when people
talk about alternative facts, I really love what the second President,
the great grandfather of Henry Adams said, John Adam. He
says facts are stubborn things, and whatever our wishes, our inclinations,
or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the
(32:27):
state of facts and evidence. And that's why I like
what Bill is saying about transparency. Give people the facts
and the evidence. And we've reached the state that for
some reason people believe you can create alternative facts instead
of looking that there is evidence. And as long as
we have evidence, I think with the systems it can work.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Let's go to Van in Jeluth, Minnesota. Van welcome to
the middle, Go.
Speaker 12 (32:55):
Ahead, State oh Is.
Speaker 20 (32:58):
First of all, I want to thank Mystery Gates and
any other poll worker or bullying worker all across.
Speaker 21 (33:07):
The country that held the lion against this wall of fascism.
It was one of the only firewalls left that I
could see, So thank you from the bottom of my heart. Yes,
we're in very, very precarious situation. We can't even agree
on facts in this in this world anymore, alternative facts
(33:29):
have replaced real facts.
Speaker 20 (33:32):
I don't know what happens to an American democracy with
that kind of problem.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Van, thank you very much for that call. Bill Gates,
he thanks you, And by the way, we'd like to
thank you as well, because obviously the work that you
do and so many other election officials around this country
is so important. But do you want to comment on
that from Van No.
Speaker 8 (33:54):
I appreciate being that comment. And look, in Maricopa County alone,
it takes thousands of people to run an election, and
we understand that the eyes of the world will be
on Maricopa County again in twenty twenty four. And I
couldn't be prouder to work alongside those folks. Like I said,
these aren't computers. These aren't robots that are counting these votes.
(34:17):
These are people, and these are people who care about
this democracy. They believe in this democracy. The line has
held before, and I believe the line will hold again.
But can we always do better? Can we become more transparent?
Can we become more democratic? Small d Absolutely, and I
(34:38):
think there are a lot of people who are committed
to that. We are facing challenges, like Vernon says, we
haven't faced since the eighteen fifties. But I believe that
in the end we will, we will be successful and
this democracy will reach a new level. But Van, thank
you for your comments and I will certainly pass amondo
(34:59):
to all my colleagues America, Coopa County.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Gabriel is with us from Saint Paul, Minnesota High Gabriel,
you're on the air.
Speaker 12 (35:06):
Go ahead, Hi, Yeah, nice to talk to you all.
You know and interest in regard to democracy and the
alleged threat of it. I think what is important to discuss,
and I'd like to hear your icon it as well,
is that I feel like it's just more of a
corporatetocracy at this point. You know, there's a large influence
on money on both sides of the politics, and it's
(35:28):
kind of driving the divide and the control that Americans
have on their boat and their ability to really pick
the candidates that they desire. So that's what you haven't heard.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Do you think that democracy, though, is in danger in
the next election. Do you think it's at stake?
Speaker 12 (35:47):
Not to that extent. It's almost just like it's always
been prevalent. In regard to what I was talking before
of threatening it, I think it's a growing problem, and
I wouldn't say it's any more of a threat and
has been. But do you think it's maybe a fusing
more joy politics that the money and it's involvement there.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Thank you so much for that call, Gabriel Vernon Burton.
He obviously disagrees with you because you believe that it
is under threat next year.
Speaker 10 (36:17):
I do, and I believe there is. As he says,
there's always been problem. I believe it's a quantitative and
a qualitative issue at this time the magnitude, as Bill
has said, we have held the line. But why are
we having to hold the line. It's in my lifetime
the first time we've ever thought that we had to
(36:38):
hold the line for democracy to work. The other thing
we haven't addressed, of course, is how many people don't vote.
And Jeremy, I do want to get the opportunity to
say thank you for what you do with this program.
Because our media, now it's not just our politics, but
our media.
Speaker 9 (36:55):
People go to.
Speaker 10 (36:58):
The partisan media, right, that shapes the interpretation. If you
want to be credible and say it's not alternative facts,
that shapes it the way they want to hear it.
So it's so important that we have dialogue to understand
other people, not to demonize it, but to understand why
(37:20):
they feel that way. Because while I believe in facts,
as I've argued, facts can be interpreted different ways, but
we need to understand why.
Speaker 9 (37:29):
And no one should.
Speaker 10 (37:30):
Be told how to vote, but they should look at
the evidence to make up their mind of what kind
of country they won't And that's why it's so important
to vote.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Let's go to Blake, who is calling from Durham, North Carolina. Hi, Blake,
Welcome to the middle Hello, how are you doing great?
Go ahead with your comment.
Speaker 22 (37:53):
My comment is is that we as Americans are not
typically great students of history, and I do believe that
that American democracy may be in trouble, particularly if we
look at contemporary American through the lens of history, and
we look at the Civil War, we look at the
emancipation and of course we look at the reconstruction era.
And it's I think it's also very important to keep
(38:15):
in mind the uh, the efforts of former presidents such
as John Tyler and Franklin Pierce, UH, Millard Fillmore, James Buchanan,
Martin Martin van Buren relative to UH what Abraham Lincoln
UH sought to do.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
What do you mean by that, Well, if you.
Speaker 22 (38:36):
Look at their actions UH from those former presidents, UH,
they were they actually tried to undermine, UH tried to
undermine some of the work of UH Abraham Lincoln.
Speaker 12 (38:50):
UH.
Speaker 22 (38:50):
Very very A very interesting book that was written by
christ Rose UH called The President's War UH Six American
Presidents in the Civil War that divided him. Very interesting
book because I think that sometimes we make the assumption
that all persons who may be in positions of leadership
(39:12):
within government are necessarily on the same side. And I
think that if we look at some of the things
that took place during this particular period of time relative
to what we see taking place now, we can draw corollaries.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Blake, Thank you very much for that call. I'm going
to go to the historian there because Vernon Burton is
with us and he knows all this stuff. But I
will just add to what Blake said when he talks
about the people who are in place, many, including Liz Cheney,
the former congressman who's just come out with a new book,
have been warning about the threats of democracy and refers to,
for example, House Speaker Mike Johnson, who she says is
(39:50):
a collaborator who helped tried to help Trump remain in
power and subvert the electoral process. What about the people
that are in power? Do you worry about that? And
what do you think of what Blake said?
Speaker 9 (40:04):
This is a question of me, right, yeah, exactly, Okay,
I'm not sure exactly what he said.
Speaker 10 (40:10):
Of course, people have differences, but they were worked out
in the political process, and we're hoping, as Bill says,
that the line will hold and that people can But
I do think that there are three branches of government,
and they've always been checks and balances, and I do
think that we're in a different situation now, particularly with
(40:34):
the partisanship issues, that people who would normally vote for
something are not voting just because of party issues.
Speaker 9 (40:44):
Even though they might agree with those issues.
Speaker 10 (40:47):
And then you have, of course, the courts, where we've
always assumed the courts would enforce the rule of law
whether we liked it or not, presence and everything. And
I believe this is the first time in our history
that the courts are actually, at least a Supreme Court
is out of sync with where the opinion.
Speaker 9 (41:09):
The people are.
Speaker 10 (41:10):
So I find that a more dangerous situation all around.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Let's go to Kay in Madison, Wisconsin. Hi, K, welcome
to the middle.
Speaker 6 (41:18):
Go ahead, all right.
Speaker 23 (41:21):
I may have been active in politics and government and
history for sixty years, and I can't agree with Professor
Burton Moore in terms of that. The last I remember
the figure nineteen states have no teach no civics courses.
I assume that means in high school for the past
(41:43):
twenty years history has been dominated by social history, which
and I don't know exactly what kind of political history
is being taught. And thirdly, the last thing we need
is more people involved in stem where they might not
get any kind of liberal arts classes or history or
political science courses at all.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Great points, K, thank you very much for that. Call.
Get to another one. Here, Tom is calling from Houston. Tom.
Do you think democracy at risk is at risk in
next year's election?
Speaker 24 (42:19):
Yes, I kind of do, but it seems like it
might be a form of democracy cannibalizing itself just because
we are seeing a trend of all across the world,
like especially in Europe, people are electing more authoritarian leaders
just because they you know, they're seeing things that aren't
working and they want changes.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Thanks Tom for that call. Bill Gates, let me ask
you about that. What did you think when you when
you heard President Trump, former President Trump say this week
you'd be a dictator only on day one? Are you
worried about authoritarianism? I?
Speaker 8 (42:54):
You know, I believe very strongly in this democracy, and
I believe in the peace people that they will hear
these comments and that they will that'll be very important
for them and deciding who they're going to vote for.
I think that we have seen the callers right, We've
(43:15):
seen a tilt towards authoritarianism both internationally and within our
own country that I didn't think was part of our
political culture. And so that's why it's important for people
who don't believe in that to get involved into vote,
and the one thing I'm just going to give a
couple first of all, the couple of callers back, someone
(43:36):
referenced Christa Rose writing a book. I know Christa Rose.
He was our Americopa County clerk, so talk about a
small world. He's a renaissance man, an elected official as
well as an author. And also too, I would just
say that, look what we're seeing. A lot of people
(43:56):
aren't talking about this, but we're actually seeing voter participate
patient at high level right now that we actually haven't
seen in years. I know there's a lot of doomsday,
there's a lot of things we're concerned about, but I
will I do like I said, I'm an optimist and
I do want to stress that we are seeing voter
participation levels that we haven't seen in decades.
Speaker 12 (44:18):
Now.
Speaker 8 (44:19):
We can debate whether you know why we're seeing those,
but we are. So that is something that is encouraging
and I think we had to talk about that more well.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
And and Vernon Burton, do you think that that is
in part a response to people's worries about losing their
their democracy or that they're worried about, you know, whether
their vote counts, that they want to go out and
get more involved in vote.
Speaker 10 (44:40):
Certainly that was the case in Georgia and Arizona. I
think it was a reaction to minorities who were clearly
understood that these laws, some of the laws being proposed,
were aimed at trying to keep them from voting. Jeremy,
very quickly, I want to say you probably heard me
say this before, that two things change the American South.
(45:03):
I believe the Voting Rights Act and air conditioning. And
we understand how air conditioning works better than we do
the Voting Rights Act because we have good stem education,
I'm all for it, but we need education about what
a democracy is, what a republic is, how these things work,
because as I said already.
Speaker 9 (45:24):
Today, it's not static. It can go forward.
Speaker 10 (45:28):
We saw it go forward for a long time, and
there are forces that would like to take it the
other way.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Now we're just to have time for maybe a comment
that's come in online, Sammy, rights lawmakers seem to represent
the donors over their constituents. Is that democracy when corporations
get more say than the people they supposedly represent. Why
is it that when the majority of Americans agree on
a subject like abortion and gun safety, there's no movement
(45:53):
in Congress. Thank you Sammy for writing in. You know, Tlliver,
I just want to say one thing, which is, you know,
we had a couple of callers with accents, foreign accents
on the show today. I think it's very interesting that
people who have come in as immigrants are so devoted
to US democracy. It reminds me a little bit of
you know, when I love the National Parks. When you
(46:15):
go to the National Parks, often most of the people
in there are not born in America. They're they're immigrants
who want to come and explore our beautiful national parks,
which I think is such a great, such a great thing.
We are almost out of time, but we have time
for a little quiz, Tolliver.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Absolutely. I also want to shout out how many Minnesota's
called in today, the great Minnesota former home state. According
to the Economists Democracy Index, what's the most democratic country
in the world is as far as two guests, Sweden, Norway,
Switzerland or Ireland. Sweden, Norway, Switzerland or Ireland. Hit your
buzzer and come on in when you're ready.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Vernon, Bill Gates, what what do you got which one?
Speaker 9 (46:59):
Bill will go, all right, let's do it.
Speaker 8 (47:02):
I'm gonna hit my button.
Speaker 20 (47:04):
Okay, you want me to say it?
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, go ahead. What do you think? Bill I Ireland, Okay, Vernon,
what do you think?
Speaker 10 (47:11):
Well, that's that's a tough one. But I think we'll
stay in Unison whether I agree.
Speaker 9 (47:14):
Or not it.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Tolliver, the answer, the correct answer is Norway. I will
see you alsoin Nashville Public Radio socks anyway.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Okay, there you go. Well, I want to thank my guest,
Bill Gates, Maricopa County Supervisor in Arizona. Great to have
you on the show.
Speaker 8 (47:32):
Bill, thank you very much, thanks for having me. Really
enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
And good luck with the election next year. And Vernon Burton,
Clemson University history professor and author of the Age of
Lincoln and Justice Deferred, among the many other books. A
real pleasure having you on as well.
Speaker 9 (47:46):
Thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 10 (47:48):
And Bill, I sure enjoyed being out in your neck
of the woods last month.
Speaker 9 (47:53):
Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 8 (47:54):
You're welcome back to anytime, Tolliver.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
We have a great show coming up next week.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Yeah, we're talking about AI. We're answering your questions about
artificial intelligence.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
What are your questions and concerns about it. We're gonna
have tech journalists and podcaster Karas Swisher as one of
our guests, and by the way, Tolliver. As you know,
we have a weekly newsletter that is free. People can
sign up at listen toothem middle dot com.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
Yes, we also have a podcast. It's available in partnership
with iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app or wherever you
listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
The Middle is brought to you by long Nook Media,
distributed by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced
by joe An Jennings, John Barth, Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander,
and Charlie Little. Our technical director is Jason Croft. Our
theme music was composed by Andrew Haig. Thanks to Nashville
Public Radio for hosting Tolliver. Thanks to iHeartMedia and the
more more than three hundred and seventy public radio stations
(48:44):
that are making it possible for people across the country
to listen to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to
you next week.
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. The question this
hour is a very simple one. Is democracy itself at
stake in next year's election? Our number is eight four
four four Middle. That is eight four four four six
four three three five three. We want to hear from
you if you're a Republican, a Democrat and independent, if
you think democracy is at stake, or if you think
(00:26):
the concerns are overblown. Tolliver is joining us from Nashville
Public Radio this hour. Hi, Tolliver from the Music City tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
That's right, the Music City. Actually, this morning I got
to interview Olivia Hill, the first trans elected official in Tennessee.
For a lot of folks, her election is a great
example of democracy, you know, a direct response of voters
to trans healthcare restrictions right that we've.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Been talking about this year. Absolutely, you know, Tulliver. We've
been asking the big questions on this show Democracy this Hour,
But last week we asked people about how they tend
to their mental health and if they have access to care.
It was a very powerful episode. Take a listen to
some of the voicemails that we got.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
This is Teresa and I'm calling from Mount Carmel, Illinois.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
My name is Casey calling from Greeley, Colorado.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
This is Carolyn from Pittsburgh.
Speaker 6 (01:13):
My name is Matt. I am a recently retired thirty
plus year police veteran. I've dealt a lot with mental health.
I'm currently under therapy with the VA.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
We need to just reframe the discussion about mental illness
because it is a brain disease.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
The mental health crisis in our country is obviously horrific,
but in my opinion, it's the same as the addiction
crisis and overall lack of healthcare in general.
Speaker 5 (01:45):
My current mental health practices are grounded in intense cardio
spin classes in weightlifting. Trauma informed weightlifting has been proven
to positively impact PTSD and other mental health issues. That's
what I'm doing.
Speaker 7 (02:01):
Well.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Thanks to everyone who called in so this hour. Again,
our question is is democracy itself at stake in the
twenty twenty four election. Unfortunately Judy Woodriff of PBS, who
was going to join us, is not feeling well. But
we are so excited to welcome two terrific panel guests.
Bill Gates is a county supervisor from Maricopa County, Arizona.
That's where Phoenix is He's a Republican, but in his
(02:22):
role as a high profile election official in the twenty
twenty and twenty twenty two elections, he faced harassment and
threats to his safety from some of his fellow Republicans.
Bill Gates, Welcome to the middle.
Speaker 8 (02:34):
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Jeremy and joining us from Clemson, South Carolina. Is Vernon Burton,
an expert on electoral systems and voting rights. He's professor
of history at Clemson University and author of many books,
including the Age of Lincoln and Justice Deferred. Vernon Burton,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 9 (02:51):
Thank you, always a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Well, before we get to calls, Bill Gates, I want
to just ask you for people who don't know your story.
When you were running elections in Maricopa County, you received
vile emails and social media posts, even death threats. It
got so bad that you and your family had to
flee your home and on election day in twenty twenty two,
you were moved to an undisclosed location. Can you just
(03:15):
describe the type of pressure you were under as an
election official and is that why you decided to step
down at the end of your term.
Speaker 8 (03:23):
So again, thanks for having me on the show. First
of all, that's not why I've decided not to run again.
By the way, I will be serving through the end
of twenty twenty four and so we will be having
another high profile election next year. But I've served between
the Phoenix City Council and the Maricopa County Voters Supervisors
for fourteen years. But this was a This has been
(03:48):
a very challenging environment for all of us, both those
of us on the border supervisors are county recorder and
the people who were involved in elections. These are people
who have committed their lives to being a part of
our American democracy, and unfortunately they have received, as you described,
(04:09):
vile threats of really indescribable levels, whether it's been in emails,
whether it's been voicemails that they've received, whether it has
been people leaving at the end of the day after
working a fourteen to sixteen hour day on an election
having pictures taken of them, pictures taking of their license plates.
(04:33):
It's unacceptable and that's why my colleagues and I have
spoken out against it for the past few years.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Vernon Burton, you've been testifying at various hearings around the
country regarding new voting laws enacted since the last presidential election.
Do you think that democracy is at stake in next
year's election.
Speaker 9 (04:56):
I'm not sure it's just in next year's election.
Speaker 10 (05:01):
I fear that most of us are think of democracy
as static. There's always been there, but democracy changes, the
ideas of democracy changes, and I think a lot.
Speaker 9 (05:16):
Is at stake in this election.
Speaker 10 (05:19):
It could certainly undermine what has been a bedrock, at
least since Lincoln, the rule of law, that you have
to have some common ground for people to accept the
premises of democracy. And it reminds me very much of
the Civil War era you had at that time, the
(05:40):
rise of authoritarianism. When Lincoln said that the United States
was the last best hope, he meant it because the
rest of the world was moving back from democracy and
republics toward authoritarian and monarchies. And in fact, the Confederacy
was much more in line with the rest of the world.
And so it to me. There's no such thing as
(06:03):
exact parallels. But since eighteen sixty, I think democracy is
imperiled and challenged more now than any other time.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Wow, again, our number is eight four four four Middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five three.
Let's go to the phones, and Allan is joining us
from Laramie, Wyoming. Allan, welcome to the middle. Go ahead.
Speaker 11 (06:29):
I absolutely believe that democracy is on the ballot in
twenty twenty four. Donald Trump, in my view, isn't leading
a movement to advocate for conservative policy issues like Hayley
Christy or even Ron DeSantis is. He's focused on getting
(06:50):
power and keeping it. And if January sixth has taught
us anything, that he's willing to shred the Constitution for
his own gain.
Speaker 12 (06:58):
And I wouldn't believe.
Speaker 11 (07:00):
Him for a second when he says that he's only
going to be a dictator for one day, and we
heard that from him in his interview with Sean Handy
just yesterday.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Said that this week. Yeah, Alan, thank you for that
call of Bill Gates. I'm going to go to you
on that. I am sure we are going to hear
a lot about Donald Trump this hour, but your thoughts
there on what we just heard from Larry me.
Speaker 8 (07:22):
Wyoming, Well, Look, this is it's very important that in
our role on the Americopa County Board of Supervisors, we
understand that the election is going to come down to
a few swing states, and certainly within those swing states
and number of swing counties, Americopa County is one of them.
And so it is very important. And this is what
(07:43):
we've done since twenty twenty, is that we have provided
the facts about how our elections are run. We're going
to continue to do that, and people who want to
spread misinformation about our elections, we're going to respond to it.
We're going to continue to provide the facts. But it's
important that everyone understand this is you know, this is
(08:07):
as I've said many times before, it's a simple math problem, okay.
And we have people who have concerns about how our
elections are run. We have a Republican and a Democrat
in the room watching the tabulation, watching how it's run.
We have a twenty four to seven livestream camera. So
(08:28):
that happened in twenty it had happened in twenty two,
and it's going to happen in twenty four. And in
the end, whoever gets the most votes is going to
is going to at least Americopa County. That'll be the
person that wins Maricopa County, and beyond that Arizona. That's
what we're focused on. We're focused on the facts, and
we're focused on who has received the most votes.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Vernon Burton, by the way, you have testified I believe
in Arizona, in Maricopa County about new voting regulations, right.
Speaker 10 (09:00):
Laws that have been proposed and passed but not enacted. Yes,
I believe it was November the fourteenth.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
And do you think that some of the laws that
have been enacted or at least proposed around the country,
especially in swing states like Bill Gates is is talking about,
are going to make a difference in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 10 (09:21):
I think they will, particularly the ones that are being
proposed in Arizona. Some of them are just intimidating, particularly
the minority voters. Bill knows more than I do, but
it has been an issue for Native Americans for a
long time getting there. Some of the rules are as
(09:44):
I read them and as I interpret them, are almost
like traps to find ways to trap people to make
a mistake, and that can be very intimidating. There's similar
laws in Florida and Georgia that I've been involved with
and testified on. And the big question is, as Bill says,
(10:05):
those elections in Georgia and Arizona are probably the most
closely monitored and honest elections. As Brad Raefinsberger said in Georgia,
you know, and as the governor said that they were
extraordinarily careful. And yet what you hear are accusations of
voter fraug And that's something that's really sort of new,
(10:30):
but goes back to an old trope of reconstruction that
points toward minorities of what social scientists called doll whistles.
You no longer use the language you used to use.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
We are also getting some comments in online. Donna writes
at listen Tothemiddle dot com. In my lifetime, I am
seventy six. I believe democracy has been under thread at
least since Congress passed the Patriot Act in two thousand
and two, and is dangerously so. Today. I worried about
my grandchildren's future. My son and his family live in Canada,
(11:04):
which he believes is a truer guardian of democracy than
today's United States. You can reach out to us and
Listen to the Middle dot com. You can also reach
us on social media. I'm at Jeremy Hobson on x
formerly known as Twitter. You know Tolliver. In order for
democracy to work, there has to be some level of trust,
and polling data from Pugh shows that overall trust in
(11:26):
government was higher even during the Watergate scandal than it
is now, and it has only declined since then.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, that's right, Jeremy. Here's John Dean, who served as
White House counsel for Richard Nixon, talking with C and
n Jim Acosta about some of the parallels between Watergate
and the current moment in American politics.
Speaker 13 (11:44):
The fact that the Republican Party has picked up a
lot of this as their norm is one of the
reasons I'm writing books about authoritarianism. And if we don't
learn the lesson, democracy is in trouble. It doesn't function
well under authoritarian rule.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
And we've got many more calls coming up. Stay with
us the Middle. We'll be right back. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle
is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating
voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically, or maybe
you just want to meet in the middle. I'm joined
by Vernon Burton, Professor of history at Clemson University and
(12:22):
an expert on electoral systems and voting rights. And Maricopa
County Arizona Supervisor Bill Gates, a high profile election official
who is stepping down next year after facing harassment on
the job. We're asking you, is democracy itself at stake
in the twenty twenty four elections? Tolliver, what's that number again?
Speaker 2 (12:41):
It's eight four four four Middle, that's eight four four
four six four three three five three.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
And I'm going to go right to the phones. And Albert,
who's joining us from Saint Louis, Missouri. Hi, Albert, welcome
to the middle. Do you think democracy is at stake
in next year's election?
Speaker 14 (12:58):
Yes, and a big, big, big dread to democracy. But
American democracy is not only under dread in twenty twenty four,
it's actually under dread right now. It's been constantry under dread.
If you look at all the issues of jerymandering in
(13:26):
most of the states, and if you also look at
like the issue that's happened in Florida where almost a
million people look like American democracy is a struggling democracy.
I came to this country from Kenya almost twenty years ago,
but I see the same problem that are very young
(13:46):
democracy like Kenya. It's they are still the same problem
that democracy United States, which has been there for almost
two hundred years.
Speaker 6 (13:57):
It's expediency.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
You see this. You see the same issues in Kenya
as you see in the United States in terms of
the democracy exactly.
Speaker 14 (14:06):
The threat to democracy in Kenya is almost a cinema
because some people are just said making a difference boundaries
depending on who they want to win and who where.
Speaker 12 (14:20):
They want to win.
Speaker 14 (14:21):
The Kenyan problem is more table. But also here is
about the two political parties.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Let me ask you, Albert, are you a US citizen?
Are you able to vote? And do you vote in
elections in the United States?
Speaker 14 (14:34):
I do vote in every election. I'm a very very
strong believer in democracy.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Great, well, thank you very much for that call. Bill Gates,
I'll go to you on that. You know Albert's view
that US democracy has always been in peril for the
entire time he's been in this country twenty years.
Speaker 8 (14:52):
He says, well, I appreciate Albert calling in. We actually
have a daughter who is from Yugan, and so I've
talked with her a lot about some of the issues
with some of the African countries. And this is pretty
unprecedented some of the challenges that we're facing in the US.
(15:13):
And you know, I've had some of these discussions with
my daughter. But look, here's the bottom line, and people
need to understand this. We're having challenges, but we also
have the world's oldest democracy. We have people, and we
have some people who are retiring after years and elections,
but we've got people throughout this country who have worked
(15:36):
for decades. And let me be clear, these are not
robots that are running elections. These are your neighbors, this
is your aunt, this is your grandmother, And these people
around the country have held strong as people have been
challenging our democracy. And I think, you know, let's look
at the good side of this, right, let's look at
(15:57):
the bright side. American democracy held in twenty twenty, American
democracy held in twenty twenty two. Is it under thread
again in twenty twenty four. Yes, But I am an
optimist by nature, I'll tell you that. But it's going
to take people across this country being focused on this election,
(16:18):
making sure that there are a lot of eyeballs on
this and making sure that in the end, those people
who get the most votes are those to win the elections.
So do we need to be focused, Yes, but I
am confident about where we're at with this democracy as
we look forward to what might be the most important
election in the history of this country.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Let's go to another call, also from Saint Louis. Eric
is joining us from Saint Louis. Eric, welcome to the
middle go ahead.
Speaker 15 (16:48):
Thank you so much, thanks for having me.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
Jeremy.
Speaker 15 (16:51):
So, I'm a navy veteran. I'm one of the closest
sixty percent of military veterans who's never joined or affiliated
with either major party. And we're most concerned about the
structural clause with our system that doesn't allow the sixty
percent of Americans who are independents to even fully participate
(17:11):
in our own American democracy. So that's really what I'm
most concerned about in twenty twenty four, and beyond.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
That, you as an independent, can't participate in the primary
system exactly.
Speaker 15 (17:24):
I mean in twenty twenty it was twenty six million
Americans live in closed primary states. So if any party
is going to claim to be pro democracy, I find
it really confusing that they would oppose something as simple
as open primary elections.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
A great point, Eric, Thank you. So much for that call.
Vernon Burton, I'll go to you on that. The primary system.
You know, people, as we've even been talking about this
show the Middle, we've said, you know, primary elections are
one on the fringes, the general election is one in
the middle. But what about our primary system? Is that
in itself a threat to us democracy because it it
does force people to go out to the edges.
Speaker 9 (18:03):
Well, one of the problems, and maybe I shouldn't say problem.
I agree with Bill.
Speaker 10 (18:06):
We have worked and a lot of people didn't think
democracy had a chance when it began with the American Revolution.
We've got to remember it's always been sort of under challenge.
But we're not a parliamentary form of government. It's a
winner take all, at least with the president and certainly
some other offices, so you don't get anything for second place.
(18:28):
One of the problems with the primaries though, is and
I see it both ways. You can make arguments. I'm
going to make this loan, but I have particularly seen
where people will go from one party to vote in
the other primary to try to get a candidate they
think that they can beat from their party. So it
gets very tough on this whole idea. As long as
(18:49):
it's parties and we only have two major parties, we
can go on and on. But it's a complicated question.
But I feel for those people who feel they don't
have an opportunity. What I would advise is to look
at the two parties, look at the candidates, select which
one you would want to vote in. Our third party
(19:10):
if they're having primaries, would be the best way under
the structural system that we have, and the parties have
really become a new kind of factor because we're so bipartisan.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Now let's go to another call. Abdul is joining us
from Minneapolis. Abdul, Welcome to the middle.
Speaker 7 (19:31):
Go ahead, Hey, Mike, queston is what role will lobbying have?
What role will it play in the coming future. You know,
our generation as a whole starting to wake up to
realize how much lobbying impacts our elections. You know, there
(19:52):
was a I don't know candidate that was running that
recently said she was offered twenty million dollars to run
against I think Rashida's or something like that. And you
know a lot of a lot of even laws are
being made that you know, if you boycott, for example, Israel,
you will be fined or things will be taking actually
(20:14):
will be taken against you. So you know, it's it's
a huge threat to our democracy. And you know, we
just want to know what role of that play in
the future.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Lobbying, Okay, if we've got it, Uh, Bill Gates, you
know it's not just lobbying, but I guess money in
politics in general. Uh, you know the citizens United Supreme
Court decision. Uh, do you think, especially as a Republican,
do you think that that has been harmful to us democracy?
Speaker 8 (20:41):
So, you know, I'm someone who believes in transparency in sunlight.
I've talked about that a lot. We've done that a
lot in Amercopa County in twenty twenty two, We're very proud.
I think we ran the most transparent election ever. We
had sixteen press conferences educating people about how we run
the elections. And so when it comes to money, I
(21:04):
think that the people deserve the right to know what
money is being spent on these elections. The First Amendment
creates a certain right to participate, to engage in political speech,
and people may choose that the way they want to
engage in political speech is by donating money. As long
as the people, and everyone may not agree with me
on your show, and that's okay. But as long as
(21:26):
the people know who's paying that money, which candidates they're
paying for, and they know that before they have the
right to vote, I'm okay with that. I think that
I have great faith in the American people that they
can cut through what's going on and they can make
the decision that they believe is best for them and
(21:46):
their families.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Vernon Burton, you know, one of the things about the
way that elections are running this country is that it's
not managed at the federal level. There are thousands of
elections going on across the country being handled by different people.
Do you think that that is a good thing or
a bad thing in terms of the health of our
democracy overall?
Speaker 10 (22:09):
Well, I do believe in little d democracy, Jeremy, and
this is more of an opinion as a historian, but
I loved it when it's from the ground level. The
problem is often these will be unregulated and not as
open as bills suggest. But you mentioned Citizens United. I
think people do not realize what that has done because
(22:33):
it means we don't know who's giving money and how much,
and it's huge. It probably we focus so much on
the voting laws, but I would argue that maybe Citizens
United opening up of all things, overturning the Tilman at
Ben Tilman, the demagogue from the South who had wanted
(22:54):
to regulate railroads, had kept at least that it would
be clear who was giving you money. So I think
that has undermined democracy in many ways, more than all
the voting law changes that have come about.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Let's go to Angie in Mountain Grove, Missouri. Angie, welcome
to the middle. Go ahead. Do you think democracy is
at stake in next year's election?
Speaker 16 (23:20):
Oh definitely. I mean, we have politicians doing things that
if one of our siblings or a parent or friend
did it, we would chastise them and really have a
big discussion. And yet people are supporting people that are
pulling things on a continual basis and going it's okay,
I like them, We'll let them do it anyway. The
(23:40):
standards are gone. I mean calling and saying you need
to find me votes, being disrespectful to people in interviews,
blaming people for something one of their family members is
doing when they had nothing to do with it, just
because they wanted to be their political advantage. We're in trouble.
(24:02):
People are supporting people that they wouldn't even be friends with.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Angie, thank you very much for that call. And uh next,
I want to actually go to a call Tulliver. You
can maybe help me out with this because this it's
the first city that I don't know how to FA
got a call from. Is it Mankato, Minnesota? Ben, man Caato,
man Cato, Beth, Is that right, man Caato, Minnesota.
Speaker 17 (24:30):
Yeah, we're downfouth here in Mankato.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Man Cato. Okay, Well, welcome to the middle and go
ahead with your your comment of your question about democracy.
Speaker 17 (24:39):
I'm I'm more concerned with primaries. I think in primaries
we get fast, we are out there, Kamith, So I
try to be pretty strategic. I'm pretty convinced I'm not
going to get somebody elected in the party of my choice.
So in the primaries, I actually choose.
Speaker 16 (25:01):
To vote.
Speaker 17 (25:03):
On the other side and have my fay to get
a more reasonable candidate. In Minnesota, you can only vote
one side of the ticket, like literally, it is one
side of the ticket. So I won't have a say
on my party side, but I get a more reasonable
candidate on the other side.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
So you're not trying to be You're not trying to sorry, Beth,
You're not trying to be strategic and get somebody who's
going to be easier for your party to beat. You
Actually just want to have two.
Speaker 17 (25:35):
Good No, no exactly, I just want somebody reasonable. Like
the last time I did this, and I don't do
it all the time. Mostly I just vote my side,
but the last one was like, oh my god, that's
the Marjorie Taylor's Green candidate. I have to have my
(25:56):
faith there. And like I said, this is such a
small percentage of people that actually vote in primary. Right
to me, you made a lot of sense to use
my vote in that way, and I'm hoping there might
have done four hundred people like me that did that
(26:17):
and we kept the crazy from getting them.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Well, Beth, thank you for that call. I'm going to
sneak in one more call here before I go to
our guest. Ton Sue is calling from Tallahassee, Florida. Ton Sue,
Welcome to the middle.
Speaker 18 (26:31):
I think that the most important domestic issue for the
next selection is democracy. That's the number one issue for general.
Other than domestic, it's the climate change, of course, and
Russia but to save democracy in America, there should be
ranked choice body. There is no other way. And the
politicians in the state yet, the politicians in the states,
(26:53):
the legislatures, they're not going to put these voting systems
into their states because there is a guess they're own interest.
So the only thing that can be done, the best
initiative is why the citizens should be put in two
ballots in doing these elections, and there should be constitutional
amendments by the citizens to put the rank choice voting
(27:16):
into their election systems, like in Alaska, so exactly exams
voices getting elected constant.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, they do it in Alaska, TANSI, thank you very much.
Let me get to our guests on that Vernon Burton
ranked choice voting where you sort of you know, if
if your number one choice doesn't get it, you can
say this is who my number two would be. Does
that would that help? Do you think American democracy?
Speaker 9 (27:38):
A lot of political scientists believe so.
Speaker 10 (27:40):
In Jeremy, Illinois at one time had a ranked choice
voting and I've forgotten some state just recently and I'm
blinking on it just did it, and uh, I think
people are pretty satisfied with it. It does help get
away from the streams. As our earlier spoken about.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I think Bill Gates, the caller there Tansu said that
it was politicians who are keeping ranked choice voting from happening.
What are your thoughts on it? As as an elected.
Speaker 8 (28:11):
Person well as an elections official. We actually may have
an item this year that would establish ranked choice voting
in Arizona. So, because I play an important role in
running our elections, I don't endorse candidates. I don't and
and so I'm not going to comment on this particular
(28:32):
item that that comes in front of us, because I
think it's important that people, you know, do not feel
that my personal views on this might impact how the
election turns out. But I know it's an issue that
a lot of people are talking about, and I think
the discussion is healthy about where our democracy moves into
the future.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Again, we are also hearing from people online armand asks
even if Donald Trump doesn't win, what will happen to
our democracy if candidates who who's the popular vote keep
winning the presidency because of the electoral College. You can
write into us at listen to Themiddle dot com, and
when you go there, you can either email us or
(29:11):
reach out to us on social media. All of our
socials are there, you know, Tolliver, It is not just
Democrats who think democracy is at risk. A you gov
poll from June found that ten percent of Democrats rate
their satisfaction with our democracy at zero out of ten.
But for Republicans it's thirty eight percent that rated at
(29:31):
zero out of ten.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
That's right. Here's Ryan Zinke, a Republican congressman from Montana,
speaking last January about the forming of a new Congressional
Committee on the Weaponization of the Federal government.
Speaker 19 (29:43):
Despite the Deep Stakes repeatedly attempts to stop me, I
stand before you, as a duly elected member of the
United States Congress and tell you that a deep state
exists and is perhaps the strongest covert weapon the left
has against the American.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
That was Ryan Zink. Wow, what a voice on Ryan's
like you had no idea.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Well, what a voice on our guest Vernon Burton too.
Don't you love that accent? We will We're back with
more of the middle in a moment. This is the middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're talking about whether democracy itself is
at stake in the twenty twenty four election. Our number
is eight four four four middle. That is eight four
four four six four three three five three. You can
(30:26):
also reach out to us at Listen to the Middle
dot com. Our guests are Maricopa County, Arizona Supervisor Bill Gates,
who's an election official there, and Vernon Burton, professor of
history at Clemson University, an expert on electoral systems and
voting rights, and author of many books, including the Age
of Lincoln and Justice Deferred. Before we go back to
(30:47):
the phones, Vernon Burton, there are those who say that
the concerns about democracy are overblown. I was recently watching
John Bolton, the former national security advisor for President Trump,
who is no fan of Trump, but he said the
system worked on January sixth, and in the end, there
was a peaceful transfer of power. What about that?
Speaker 10 (31:08):
You know, as a student of the Civil War, I
find it interested in that Robert E. Lee, as good
as general he was, did not get the Confederate flag
in the capitol. So I would say that was pretty.
Speaker 9 (31:19):
Dramatic and symbolic. Jeremy.
Speaker 10 (31:22):
And to go back to a couple of things Bill
said very quickly, I'm reminded of two quotes because I
think there is a way out of this real challenge
to democracy, and that is Henry Adams, who was a
great grandson of John Adams, a president, wrote in his
autobioph The Education of Henry Adams, that the American mind
(31:44):
quote stood alone in history for the ignorance of his past.
And I think that's important because I think you do
need education for a democracy, and I am all for
stem education, but I think the humanities and particularly history
and what we used to call civics, is so important
(32:06):
to understand, and particularly at a time now when people
talk about alternative facts, I really love what the second President,
the great grandfather of Henry Adams said, John Adam. He
says facts are stubborn things, and whatever our wishes, our inclinations,
or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the
(32:27):
state of facts and evidence. And that's why I like
what Bill is saying about transparency. Give people the facts
and the evidence. And we've reached the state that for
some reason people believe you can create alternative facts instead
of looking that there is evidence. And as long as
we have evidence, I think with the systems it can work.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Let's go to Van in Jeluth, Minnesota. Van welcome to
the middle, Go.
Speaker 12 (32:55):
Ahead, State oh Is.
Speaker 20 (32:58):
First of all, I want to thank Mystery Gates and
any other poll worker or bullying worker all across.
Speaker 21 (33:07):
The country that held the lion against this wall of fascism.
It was one of the only firewalls left that I
could see, So thank you from the bottom of my heart. Yes,
we're in very, very precarious situation. We can't even agree
on facts in this in this world anymore, alternative facts
(33:29):
have replaced real facts.
Speaker 20 (33:32):
I don't know what happens to an American democracy with
that kind of problem.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Van, thank you very much for that call. Bill Gates,
he thanks you, And by the way, we'd like to
thank you as well, because obviously the work that you
do and so many other election officials around this country
is so important. But do you want to comment on
that from Van No.
Speaker 8 (33:54):
I appreciate being that comment. And look, in Maricopa County alone,
it takes thousands of people to run an election, and
we understand that the eyes of the world will be
on Maricopa County again in twenty twenty four. And I
couldn't be prouder to work alongside those folks. Like I said,
these aren't computers. These aren't robots that are counting these votes.
(34:17):
These are people, and these are people who care about
this democracy. They believe in this democracy. The line has
held before, and I believe the line will hold again.
But can we always do better? Can we become more transparent?
Can we become more democratic? Small d Absolutely, and I
(34:38):
think there are a lot of people who are committed
to that. We are facing challenges, like Vernon says, we
haven't faced since the eighteen fifties. But I believe that
in the end we will, we will be successful and
this democracy will reach a new level. But Van, thank
you for your comments and I will certainly pass amondo
(34:59):
to all my colleagues America, Coopa County.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Gabriel is with us from Saint Paul, Minnesota High Gabriel,
you're on the air.
Speaker 12 (35:06):
Go ahead, Hi, Yeah, nice to talk to you all.
You know and interest in regard to democracy and the
alleged threat of it. I think what is important to discuss,
and I'd like to hear your icon it as well,
is that I feel like it's just more of a
corporatetocracy at this point. You know, there's a large influence
on money on both sides of the politics, and it's
(35:28):
kind of driving the divide and the control that Americans
have on their boat and their ability to really pick
the candidates that they desire. So that's what you haven't heard.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Do you think that democracy, though, is in danger in
the next election. Do you think it's at stake?
Speaker 12 (35:47):
Not to that extent. It's almost just like it's always
been prevalent. In regard to what I was talking before
of threatening it, I think it's a growing problem, and
I wouldn't say it's any more of a threat and
has been. But do you think it's maybe a fusing
more joy politics that the money and it's involvement there.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Thank you so much for that call, Gabriel Vernon Burton.
He obviously disagrees with you because you believe that it
is under threat next year.
Speaker 10 (36:17):
I do, and I believe there is. As he says,
there's always been problem. I believe it's a quantitative and
a qualitative issue at this time the magnitude, as Bill
has said, we have held the line. But why are
we having to hold the line. It's in my lifetime
the first time we've ever thought that we had to
(36:38):
hold the line for democracy to work. The other thing
we haven't addressed, of course, is how many people don't vote.
And Jeremy, I do want to get the opportunity to
say thank you for what you do with this program.
Because our media, now it's not just our politics, but
our media.
Speaker 9 (36:55):
People go to.
Speaker 10 (36:58):
The partisan media, right, that shapes the interpretation. If you
want to be credible and say it's not alternative facts,
that shapes it the way they want to hear it.
So it's so important that we have dialogue to understand
other people, not to demonize it, but to understand why
(37:20):
they feel that way. Because while I believe in facts,
as I've argued, facts can be interpreted different ways, but
we need to understand why.
Speaker 9 (37:29):
And no one should.
Speaker 10 (37:30):
Be told how to vote, but they should look at
the evidence to make up their mind of what kind
of country they won't And that's why it's so important
to vote.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Let's go to Blake, who is calling from Durham, North Carolina. Hi, Blake,
Welcome to the middle Hello, how are you doing great?
Go ahead with your comment.
Speaker 22 (37:53):
My comment is is that we as Americans are not
typically great students of history, and I do believe that
that American democracy may be in trouble, particularly if we
look at contemporary American through the lens of history, and
we look at the Civil War, we look at the
emancipation and of course we look at the reconstruction era.
And it's I think it's also very important to keep
(38:15):
in mind the uh, the efforts of former presidents such
as John Tyler and Franklin Pierce, UH, Millard Fillmore, James Buchanan,
Martin Martin van Buren relative to UH what Abraham Lincoln
UH sought to do.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
What do you mean by that, Well, if you.
Speaker 22 (38:36):
Look at their actions UH from those former presidents, UH,
they were they actually tried to undermine, UH tried to
undermine some of the work of UH Abraham Lincoln.
Speaker 12 (38:50):
UH.
Speaker 22 (38:50):
Very very A very interesting book that was written by
christ Rose UH called The President's War UH Six American
Presidents in the Civil War that divided him. Very interesting
book because I think that sometimes we make the assumption
that all persons who may be in positions of leadership
(39:12):
within government are necessarily on the same side. And I
think that if we look at some of the things
that took place during this particular period of time relative
to what we see taking place now, we can draw corollaries.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Blake, Thank you very much for that call. I'm going
to go to the historian there because Vernon Burton is
with us and he knows all this stuff. But I
will just add to what Blake said when he talks
about the people who are in place, many, including Liz Cheney,
the former congressman who's just come out with a new book,
have been warning about the threats of democracy and refers to,
for example, House Speaker Mike Johnson, who she says is
(39:50):
a collaborator who helped tried to help Trump remain in
power and subvert the electoral process. What about the people
that are in power? Do you worry about that? And
what do you think of what Blake said?
Speaker 9 (40:04):
This is a question of me, right, yeah, exactly, Okay,
I'm not sure exactly what he said.
Speaker 10 (40:10):
Of course, people have differences, but they were worked out
in the political process, and we're hoping, as Bill says,
that the line will hold and that people can But
I do think that there are three branches of government,
and they've always been checks and balances, and I do
think that we're in a different situation now, particularly with
(40:34):
the partisanship issues, that people who would normally vote for
something are not voting just because of party issues.
Speaker 9 (40:44):
Even though they might agree with those issues.
Speaker 10 (40:47):
And then you have, of course, the courts, where we've
always assumed the courts would enforce the rule of law
whether we liked it or not, presence and everything. And
I believe this is the first time in our history
that the courts are actually, at least a Supreme Court
is out of sync with where the opinion.
Speaker 9 (41:09):
The people are.
Speaker 10 (41:10):
So I find that a more dangerous situation all around.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Let's go to Kay in Madison, Wisconsin. Hi, K, welcome
to the middle.
Speaker 6 (41:18):
Go ahead, all right.
Speaker 23 (41:21):
I may have been active in politics and government and
history for sixty years, and I can't agree with Professor
Burton Moore in terms of that. The last I remember
the figure nineteen states have no teach no civics courses.
I assume that means in high school for the past
(41:43):
twenty years history has been dominated by social history, which
and I don't know exactly what kind of political history
is being taught. And thirdly, the last thing we need
is more people involved in stem where they might not
get any kind of liberal arts classes or history or
political science courses at all.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Great points, K, thank you very much for that. Call.
Get to another one. Here, Tom is calling from Houston. Tom.
Do you think democracy at risk is at risk in
next year's election?
Speaker 24 (42:19):
Yes, I kind of do, but it seems like it
might be a form of democracy cannibalizing itself just because
we are seeing a trend of all across the world,
like especially in Europe, people are electing more authoritarian leaders
just because they you know, they're seeing things that aren't
working and they want changes.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Thanks Tom for that call. Bill Gates, let me ask
you about that. What did you think when you when
you heard President Trump, former President Trump say this week
you'd be a dictator only on day one? Are you
worried about authoritarianism? I?
Speaker 8 (42:54):
You know, I believe very strongly in this democracy, and
I believe in the peace people that they will hear
these comments and that they will that'll be very important
for them and deciding who they're going to vote for.
I think that we have seen the callers right, We've
(43:15):
seen a tilt towards authoritarianism both internationally and within our
own country that I didn't think was part of our
political culture. And so that's why it's important for people
who don't believe in that to get involved into vote,
and the one thing I'm just going to give a
couple first of all, the couple of callers back, someone
(43:36):
referenced Christa Rose writing a book. I know Christa Rose.
He was our Americopa County clerk, so talk about a
small world. He's a renaissance man, an elected official as
well as an author. And also too, I would just
say that, look what we're seeing. A lot of people
(43:56):
aren't talking about this, but we're actually seeing voter participate
patient at high level right now that we actually haven't
seen in years. I know there's a lot of doomsday,
there's a lot of things we're concerned about, but I
will I do like I said, I'm an optimist and
I do want to stress that we are seeing voter
participation levels that we haven't seen in decades.
Speaker 12 (44:18):
Now.
Speaker 8 (44:19):
We can debate whether you know why we're seeing those,
but we are. So that is something that is encouraging
and I think we had to talk about that more well.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
And and Vernon Burton, do you think that that is
in part a response to people's worries about losing their
their democracy or that they're worried about, you know, whether
their vote counts, that they want to go out and
get more involved in vote.
Speaker 10 (44:40):
Certainly that was the case in Georgia and Arizona. I
think it was a reaction to minorities who were clearly
understood that these laws, some of the laws being proposed,
were aimed at trying to keep them from voting. Jeremy,
very quickly, I want to say you probably heard me
say this before, that two things change the American South.
(45:03):
I believe the Voting Rights Act and air conditioning. And
we understand how air conditioning works better than we do
the Voting Rights Act because we have good stem education,
I'm all for it, but we need education about what
a democracy is, what a republic is, how these things work,
because as I said already.
Speaker 9 (45:24):
Today, it's not static. It can go forward.
Speaker 10 (45:28):
We saw it go forward for a long time, and
there are forces that would like to take it the
other way.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Now we're just to have time for maybe a comment
that's come in online, Sammy, rights lawmakers seem to represent
the donors over their constituents. Is that democracy when corporations
get more say than the people they supposedly represent. Why
is it that when the majority of Americans agree on
a subject like abortion and gun safety, there's no movement
(45:53):
in Congress. Thank you Sammy for writing in. You know, Tlliver,
I just want to say one thing, which is, you know,
we had a couple of callers with accents, foreign accents
on the show today. I think it's very interesting that
people who have come in as immigrants are so devoted
to US democracy. It reminds me a little bit of
you know, when I love the National Parks. When you
(46:15):
go to the National Parks, often most of the people
in there are not born in America. They're they're immigrants
who want to come and explore our beautiful national parks,
which I think is such a great, such a great thing.
We are almost out of time, but we have time
for a little quiz, Tolliver.
Speaker 2 (46:32):
Absolutely. I also want to shout out how many Minnesota's
called in today, the great Minnesota former home state. According
to the Economists Democracy Index, what's the most democratic country
in the world is as far as two guests, Sweden, Norway,
Switzerland or Ireland. Sweden, Norway, Switzerland or Ireland. Hit your
buzzer and come on in when you're ready.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Vernon, Bill Gates, what what do you got which one?
Speaker 9 (46:59):
Bill will go, all right, let's do it.
Speaker 8 (47:02):
I'm gonna hit my button.
Speaker 20 (47:04):
Okay, you want me to say it?
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, go ahead. What do you think? Bill I Ireland, Okay, Vernon,
what do you think?
Speaker 10 (47:11):
Well, that's that's a tough one. But I think we'll
stay in Unison whether I agree.
Speaker 9 (47:14):
Or not it.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Tolliver, the answer, the correct answer is Norway. I will
see you alsoin Nashville Public Radio socks anyway.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Okay, there you go. Well, I want to thank my guest,
Bill Gates, Maricopa County Supervisor in Arizona. Great to have
you on the show.
Speaker 8 (47:32):
Bill, thank you very much, thanks for having me. Really
enjoyed it.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
And good luck with the election next year. And Vernon Burton,
Clemson University history professor and author of the Age of
Lincoln and Justice Deferred, among the many other books. A
real pleasure having you on as well.
Speaker 9 (47:46):
Thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 10 (47:48):
And Bill, I sure enjoyed being out in your neck
of the woods last month.
Speaker 9 (47:53):
Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 8 (47:54):
You're welcome back to anytime, Tolliver.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
We have a great show coming up next week.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Yeah, we're talking about AI. We're answering your questions about
artificial intelligence.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
What are your questions and concerns about it. We're gonna
have tech journalists and podcaster Karas Swisher as one of
our guests, and by the way, Tolliver. As you know,
we have a weekly newsletter that is free. People can
sign up at listen toothem middle dot com.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
Yes, we also have a podcast. It's available in partnership
with iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app or wherever you
listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
The Middle is brought to you by long Nook Media,
distributed by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced
by joe An Jennings, John Barth, Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander,
and Charlie Little. Our technical director is Jason Croft. Our
theme music was composed by Andrew Haig. Thanks to Nashville
Public Radio for hosting Tolliver. Thanks to iHeartMedia and the
more more than three hundred and seventy public radio stations
(48:44):
that are making it possible for people across the country
to listen to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to
you next week.
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