October 13, 2023 • 49 mins
In a special episode of "The Middle with Jeremy Hobson," we're answering your questions about the War in Israel and Gaza. Joining us this week is Deborah Amos, longtime international correspondent for NPR and professor at Princeton University, and Nathan Thrall, a Jerusalem-based writer and author of A Day in the Life of Abed Salama: Anatomy of a Jerusalem Tragedy. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to a special edition of the Middle I'm Jeremy Hobson.
We're going to be taking your calls this hour about
the war in Israel and Gaza. We've got two fantastic
panel guests who will help us answer your questions. And
we welcome the listeners of WAMU in Washington, d C.
And WBEZ in Chicago this week, as always, our house
DJ Tolliver is here.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hi Tolliver, Hey, how's it going. Jeremy honored to be here.
That's what the show is all about.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
This is what the show is all about, is heavy
topics like this, but allowing people to take part in
what we hope will be a very civil conversation. Taliver,
you're in Nashville this week, where we've seen in places
around the country hundreds of people gathered in that case
to show support for Israel following the horrific attack by
Hamas last weekend in which Terrists gunned down Israelis in
(00:54):
their towns and their homes at a music festival. Thirteen
hundred at least slaughtered, many hostages taken, including some Americans.
Soon after that attack, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared
war on Hamas, and Israel has been pounding Gaza with
air strikes, killing more than fourteen hundred Palestinians already. As
(01:16):
the death tool mounts on both sides of the border,
Israelis and Palestinians are bracing for a long and brutal war.
And there have been protests in some cities in the
US against Israel's bombardment of Gaza. And so this hour
we want to know from you what are your questions
about the war in Israel, in Gaza and its wider implications.
This is a difficult topic for many, and we hope
(01:37):
as always to provide a place for civil conversation. Talver,
what is our phone number. It's eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
You can also write to us at Listen to the
Middle dot com and before we meet our panel. The
attack on Israel was personal for so many people in
the United States. I spoke earlier with Jeremy Fine. He's
(01:59):
a rabbi in Deerfield, Illinois, in the Chicago suburbs at
Congregation Benet Tikfa.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
This last week has been the worst week of my life.
It has probably been the worst week of many Jews lives.
We have not experienced anything this atrocious since the Holocaust,
and the pain comes from a multitude of whats. It
(02:30):
comes from the murder, it comes from how people were
murder it comes from hostage and uncertainties of what's becoming
of people. But I think on another level that is
(02:50):
something we maybe have never seen, is that people are
celebrating and calling for morem.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Who are you talking about when you say that.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Well, there's college campuses, there's major cities where they're celebrating
the beheading of children. There's other countries around the world
who are calling for more destruction, and not just in Israel,
but beyond. I don't believe in my life there's one
person who roots on and celebrates the death of anyone.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
As you talk to members of your congregation, now, what
kind of advice are you giving them to get through
this next week, these next weeks, these next months, as
this situation continues to unfold.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
I mean, the first advice is to take care of
themselves and the people around them, to give back where
they can, whether that's in volunteerism or financially. It's to
hold hoe as high we can't. It's to pay attention
to the right news. I mean, social media can be
a place of garbage. It can be very painful. It's
(04:08):
also to find where allyship. I think the biggest one
of the other things that's going on with CHEWS right
now is we are all taking a mental moment of
who checked in and who careen, and who loved and
who stood up and who didn't because this is not normal.
No one should ever celebrate death. It should not happen.
(04:31):
You want Palesinian state. I can understand that I cannot
empathize and understand rape and murder of babies and killing
it peaceful music festival. None of this is on the
moral compass that most people live on, and hopefully the
vast majority of the world lives. Or we're all in trouble,
(04:55):
not just Israel and Jews, humanity is in trouble.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Jeremy Fine in Deerfield, Illinois. We know that many of
you have connections to the region. We want to hear
from you. Call us eight four four four six four
three three five three. Let's meet our panel guests joining
me from Princeton, New Jersey. Deborah Amos, longtime international correspondent
for NPR, now at Princeton University. She's the author of
two books on the Middle East and has won many
(05:20):
awards for her reporting. Deb So great to have you here.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Great, great to be here. It's a terrible time to
be talking. Yeah, but I'm thank you for asking me.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Well, let me just ask you briefly before we get
to our other panel guests. You've covered the Middle East
for decades. How monumental is the attack that happened and
the response?
Speaker 4 (05:42):
So I came in in nineteen eighty two. That was
my first big story, Israel in vades Lebanon. That was big,
but this is bigger. I don't think in my long
term in the Middle East that I've seen something like this.
I think it's surprised everyone, and perhaps maybe surprised Tamas
(06:04):
most of all. I mean, I've been thinking about this
over the past couple of days, and it occurs to
me that it never occurred to them that that border
was as vulnerable as it turned out to be. And
you know, all of a sudden realizing where they were
must have been extraordinary. One hundred and fifty hostages. It's
(06:28):
just unbelievable. What has happened and what could happen Simply
because they breached that wall and had full rain. If
you look at some of the numbers of how long
it took Israeli soldiers to get to some of those places,
it was hours, hours, hours and hours that people were
(06:50):
on their own. So I think that's also part of
the pain, that they were left alone, that they were
on their own. And you know, I mean, the cases
of survival were small, and people understand that.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
We've seen some of the videos of just the anger
from people about how long it took the authorities to
come and help them, if that was even possible. Let's
bring in our other panel guest, Nathan Thrahl, author of
the new book A Day in the Life of Abed Salama,
Anatomy of a Jerusalem Tragedy. He lives in Jerusalem, but
he is joining us tonight from London. Nathan, Welcome to.
Speaker 5 (07:27):
You, Thanks very much for having me.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Well, we heard from Rabbi Fine who said this was
probably the worst week for Jews everywhere. I know that
you've been in touch with people Palestinians in Gaza not
affiliated with Hamas. What are you hearing.
Speaker 6 (07:46):
Well.
Speaker 5 (07:46):
One of my closest friends lives in Gaza is a
colleague of mine for many years. Is like an uncle
to my children. And he had shrapnel in his living room.
He has gone out to the market and waited in
(08:08):
line to get bread. There is a collective punishment of
the people of Gaza right now, where Israel is cutting
off water, food, electricity, fuel to two point one million people,
(08:28):
and he's seeing that the stocks and the shelves are
already getting low. He's separated from his daughter. He's quite
recently a grandfather, and he's separated from his daughter and
his grandchildren. And looking out his window, he sends me
(08:49):
videos of just the night sky and it's complete darkness
and then punctuated by red flames just all around him.
And it's terribly frightening to be living in that kind
of vulnerability. When he went out into the into the streets,
he said that he had never seen Gaza so thoroughly
(09:15):
raised by bombing. And he's lived through all of the
past wars.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And it may be that the worst hasn't even started
to happen yet. When it comes to what may happen
in Gaza in the days ahead, the phone lines are
lighting up, so I want to at least get to
a call before we have to take a short break.
Suha is joining us from Richmond, Texas. Suha, go ahead,
it's hike.
Speaker 7 (09:41):
Good evening. Thank you for bringing this topic up. As
a Postini Palestinian American. My question is, why is it
that the lives of Israelis and the Israelis American Americans
take precedence over the Palestinian and the Palestinian American lives.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
And why do you think that's, Suha, that that's the case.
Speaker 7 (09:59):
Well, I mean, we had a journalist, a Palestine and
American journalist that was killed by the IDF, and there
was promises by Israel that they were going to get
to the bottom of this to find out why. Well, well,
we have policines. We know there's never going to be
the answer and there's never going to be the honest truth.
And it's happened time and time again. Rachel Coy is
(10:19):
another one. You know, it's proof case in point. No food,
no water, no electricity. These are based in humanitary needs
for everybody. Why is it that it's okay to cut
it off to Gasins and Palestinians, but it's not okay
that were to happen with Israel.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Suh. Thank you so much for that call. Dev Amos,
I'll go to you on that, as you've covered this
for many years. What do you say to suhat.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
So? I would be interested to know. And I don't
know if we know this yet, because it was just
announced today that the US is sending chartered flights for
people who can't get out of Israel. There are Palestinian
Americans and there are Israeli Americans. It would be I mean, look,
nobody can get out of Gaza, so that I mean,
(11:08):
we can't consider that because it is completely closed off,
but there will be people getting on those planes. I
would be shocked if Israeli Palestinians and Palestinian Israelis and
Palestinians were not equally allowed on those planes as Americans.
It's so hard to answer a question about does the
(11:31):
US government I'm assuming that's what you mean value American
Israelis over American Palestinians. I don't even know how to
count that. So it's really hard to answer that question.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Well, and in fact, we're getting notes online similar Michael
and Stillwater, New Jersey said we should stand equally for
the Palestinian people as we do for the Israeli people
and their descendants. Now at this moment in the show,
and a normal show, Tolliver, you would have some music
for us, but not tonight.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
That's right, you know, given the gravity of the topic,
I'm gonna bring you some context as you wait for
your calls and your messages. Last weekend's attack has been
compared to the Yam Kapor War fifty years ago. Here's
the news of that attack on NBC in nineteen seventy three.
Speaker 8 (12:19):
It is an all out war. That's how Israeli de
French Minister Mousha Dianne describes an invasion of the goal
On Heights and the east bank of the Siu Az
by Syria and Egypt. The surprise attacks came early this morning,
in the air and on the ground.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Fifty years ago. Stay with us. We're gonna be right
back with more of the middle. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning in, we are
a national call in show focused on elevating voices from
the middle geographically, politically, philosophically, or maybe you just want
to meet in the middle. My guest this hour, deb Amos,
longtime international correspondent for NPR, now at Princeton University and
(12:58):
Nathan Thrahll, a writer based in Jerusale whose most recent
book is A Day in the Life of Avid Salama,
Anatomy of a Jerusalem Tragedy. We're asking you for your
questions about the current war in Israel and Gaza and
its implications in the region and for the United States.
If you've got friends or family in the region you
want to tell us about, give us a call, Tolliver,
what is our number?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
That number is eight for for for a middle that's
eight four four four six four three three five three.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And let's go back to the phones. Eric is joining
us from Fairfax, Virginia.
Speaker 5 (13:31):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Eric, welcome to the Middle Go ahead with your question.
Speaker 9 (13:35):
Hey, thank you, Jeremy, and quickly. My condoles is to
the people of Israel, the barbarity they face, and to
the innocence in Gaza who are going to reap the
world and of Hamas's decision. I'm a twenty six year
Army veteran officer two tours in Iraq as an Iraqi
Army advisor. This is my background of military history and
(13:55):
it was good Tolliver put on the seventy three war
as an example. The other example that's been put up,
and this is a cautionary tale. And my question is
around us, you know we're hearing already this is Israel's
nine to eleven. Well, from America's standpoint, after nine to eleven,
we couldn't conceive that a terrorist organization, a non state
actor could carry out such a sophisticated attack without direct
(14:19):
state sponsored material and technical support. And it gave us
we wanted to strike out, and we went and we
conflated the war into something it was not, making the
axis of evil Iraq, Iran, Syria, Korea as targets of
ore ire And the guess my cautionary tale in question
(14:40):
for israel Is as they I already hear the calls
for striking out against Iran, the calls for this must
be larger the access of Russia and Iran. So my
question is what should would you believe Israel needs to
do to maintain this focus and the United States especially
(15:00):
maintain this focus on a war of what it is,
and keep it from conflating and expanding into a war
that it was not initially at least intended, may be
intended to be, at least on the Israeli side.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Great question, Eric, I'm going to go to Nathan Thrall
with that, does how does this war stay or can
it stay between Israel and the Palestinians and not spread
into a wider regional war.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
Well, first, I would say that the war is now
being conducted rather than between Israel and Hamas, as it
should be between Israel and the Palestinians, as you say,
with the decision to cut off food, water and electricity
to two point one million innocent people. So the first
(15:50):
thing is I think the focus needs to be on
Hamas and not the innocent people of Gaza. The wider
conflagration with Hasbolah is something that Israel very much does
not want to happen. The United States does not want
to happen right now. And I think that the degree
(16:16):
of devastation that we are going to see now in
Gaza is worrisome enough. And even if we just look
at what Israel is facing with respect to Gaza, they
are very likely to do a ground invasion, and that
ground invasion is going to be extremely bloody. And the
(16:39):
onus is on the Israeli government to show the Israeli
public that they are going to do something qualitatively different
in response to an attack that it was qualitatively different,
and how they can do that without losing tremendous Israeli life,
and how they can do that with an exit strategy
(17:01):
is something I don't think they really have a good
answer for.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Well, and deb amos to Nathan's point about this being
now a war between Israel and the Palestinians, not just
a moss because they're cutting off aid and food and
water to the two million people in Gaza. What Israel
and what the government has said is if Hamas is
going to operate out of schools, out of hospitals, out
(17:27):
of civilian infrastructure in Gaza, then how are we supposed
to go after the people that were trying to go
after without affecting everybody else?
Speaker 4 (17:38):
So two things. One is, you know, there's not been
an election in Causa since what two thousand and five,
So it's not that the civilians support this. There were
some people that were happy, we saw them, and of
course who else would you photograph on the street but
(17:59):
the people who are cheering, So we don't really know
how many people were stewing in their homes thinking okay,
this is really going to get to us. The idea
that if you cut off food, water, medicine, gasoline. If
the idea is to have Palestinian civilians rise up against Tamas,
that is unlikely. That is really unlikely. Two, there are
(18:24):
plenty of retired former Israeli intelligence officers who have said,
very publicly in Israeli newspapers, you cannot eliminate Hamas. You
tried that once and the last time you did it,
what happened is, yes, you decapitated the leadership, but not
the movement. And then we didn't know who the leaders were.
(18:46):
It was harder then until we knew who was running
this show. So my guess is that there are divisions
in Israel about what this strategy is because there are
plenty of experience Israeli military people who say, yes, you're
saying you're going to destroy Hamas, the problem is you
cannot do it.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Let's go to another call. Francis is joining us from
Hanover Park, Illinois. Hi Francis, welcome to.
Speaker 10 (19:13):
The Middle Hi, thank you for having.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Me, Thanks for being here. Go ahead with your question.
Speaker 10 (19:20):
First one, I want to say, as a humanitarian, I'm
shocked and horrified by what happened in with a surprise attack.
I'm just worried about is there a way for peace forwards?
Because with Israel cutting off food, water, electricity, everything to
(19:45):
the guys Strip, it just doesn't seem like there's what
is their endgame? How can this conflict stop without it?
It seems like Israel's only move forward is to just
take over and destroy all the buildings and kill all
the people there.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Unfortunately, Francis, thanks for that call, Nathan, Is there an endgame?
Do you see? Is there any way that whatever happens
now ends up with a more peaceful region?
Speaker 5 (20:20):
So I think that you know, no matter what happens
in the coming days, in weeks and months, Israel is
going to find itself in a situation in which it
controls the lives of an equal number of Jews and Palestinians.
(20:41):
Seven million Israeli Jews, seven million Palestinians between the river
and the sea the territory under Israel's control, and the
vast majority of those Palestinians are living without basic civil rights.
And that is the greater problem that Israel does not
have an answer for. And if we want to stop
(21:06):
seeing this horrific violence and this terrible bloodshed, we need
to examine this obviously unjust system that is leading repeatedly
to violence. And what we are all too often are
doing is we see the violence, we pay attention to
(21:28):
the violence, and we call for a restoration of calm.
But what is that calm? What is that status quo
anti that we are calling to return to. It's calling
to return to a situation that is filled with daily pain,
with daily violence. And that was really the aim of
my book, A Day in the Life of Avid Slamo,
(21:50):
was to focus people on the lives of Israelis and
Palestinians living in this awful system.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And you know, the.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
Brutality that we've seen both in the collective punishment and
in the Hamass attack on Saturday. That brutality and that
pain and that dehumanization is something that all of these
people are living with, and the characters in my book
are living with. And you know, earlier somebody had spoken
(22:21):
about celebration and dehumanization. You know, my book is about
a bus accident of a group of kindergarteners, Palestinian kindergarteners
who were on their way to a play area and
it was struck by a giant semi trailer. The bus
flipped over and caught fire and innocent bystanders came and
(22:46):
pulled these kids off of a bus, and by the
time the Israeli fire trucks came, all of the kids
had been taken off to different hospitals. And afterward there
were Israelis who were young Israelis without using pseudonyms, who
were posting online celebrating the deaths of kindergarteners. And this
was so upsetting to a left liberal Israeli TV anchor
(23:11):
that he created a whole TV feature about the Israeli
reaction to the deaths of these kindergarteners on the school bus.
And it goes in every direction, this level of dehumanization
and pain. You know. I tell the story in the
book of a Palestinian doctor who was just on her
way to deal with a group of local Bedouin when
(23:34):
she came upon this burning bus and as she is
helping to rescue children from this bus, all she can
think of about is her experience as a young doctor
in Tunis in nineteen eighty five when Israel bombed the
PLO headquarters and she was picking up body parts out
of the rubble, and the Israeli paramedics who arrived very
(23:58):
late on the scene you know, they're looking at the
bombed out, the burned out shell of a bus, and
they're thinking of the suicide bombings, the horrific suicide bombings
that they had to live through. And I really feel
that it's incumbent on all of us to make sure
that we put our eyes on the situation, the everyday
(24:18):
lives of these people, even when and especially when we're
out of these periods of escalation in Gaza.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Let's go to another call. Aaron is joining us from Alexandria, Virginia. Aaron,
welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Hi.
Speaker 11 (24:36):
Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 12 (24:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (24:40):
So I'm reminded, I'm an Israeli American. I'm reminded of
a Golda Mayor quote back in Nike around the Yam
Kipur and seventy three war, where she said, if the
Arabs put down their weapons, there would be peace if
the Israelies, if Israel would put down their weapons, there
would be know Israel. And that's that's sort of that
(25:02):
that quote has been in my mind for a few days,
so I wanted to sort of share that quote but
also ask about the the solution to you know, how
you respond to such a heinous act of terror that
Hamas had Uh had done to you know, the towns
(25:23):
of the south and and and in Israel, everyone knows
someone who knows someone who has been affected by it.
And I'm definitely affected emotionally by this. But how do
you then target Because one of your panelists said, well,
you want to target Hamas, not the Palestinian population, which
I completely agree with. But how do you target an
organization that embeds itself within a densely populated or uh
(25:48):
uh popular, densely populated area and hides behind these citizens
and now hides behind the hostages. How do you target
just Hamas when they use those people, those people, well,
they're own people as human shields.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Aaron, thank you for that call. Deb Amos, let me
go to you on that. This is what we brought
this up a bit earlier. But how does Israel target
just from us in a place like Gaza, which is,
by the way, one hundred and forty square miles and
two million people.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
So for starters, we are at the beginning of the beginning.
I mean, there's so much we don't know about, whether
this is a one front war, a two front war,
a three front war, I mean those the longer this
goes on, you know, we will have the magnitude of
additional horrors will grow. So maybe maybe someone could consider
(26:41):
another way to do this. Because I was in Israel
in twenty twenty one, the last time there was a
fight between Israel and Hamas. Two years later, you know
that the Israelis often talk about mowing the grass. They
say that very very openly, that Gozic can be contained.
Goz It can be dealt with, Gose it can be
(27:03):
kept calm. You just have to every once in a while,
there's going to be thumping back and forth. This event
shows that that is a failed policy. Two years later,
we're back here again in a catastrophic moment, and so
one hopes when clear thinking returns. I mean, we are
(27:28):
still in just you know, a terrible time of grief,
and it's it's hard for people to be rational about
what should happen next, But there has to be some
thought to maybe maybe the policies that have gone before
have been failures and someone needs to rethink this.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Let's go to Bruce in Chicago. Bruce, welcome to the middle.
Go ahead with your question.
Speaker 12 (27:54):
Yes, my question to you is why since nineteen forty eight,
the United States, Europe, and the United Nations has supported
Israel's takeover of Palestine, and over those years, the United States,
the Europeans, and the United Nations has failed to support
(28:16):
Palestine in its home homeland. As I'm seeing it, Israel
is practicing aparthei in the name of religion. This is
the same gang plan that has been played in South
African Aparthi American Indians killing slavery in America, South pacificas
losing their islands in Southeast Asia. This is the same
(28:37):
game plan in a different part of the world. And
I would like to know what are these politicians going
to do to stop this?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Bruce, thank you for that question. Nathan. You know, if
you look at even just his use of the term Palestine,
that is not recognized by the United States, by most
of Western Europe at this moment, a lot of the
world does recognize the quote state of Palestine. But what
(29:05):
do you say to to Bruce.
Speaker 5 (29:10):
Well, I think that you know he is responding to
an international consensus among human rights organizations that Israel is
practicing apartheid as defined in international law. This has been
the finding of all the leading Israeli human rights organizations,
(29:33):
the leading Palestinian human rights organizations and the leading international
ones Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. So that is,
you know, a consensus in the international human rights community.
It's also been the finding of former Israeli cabinet minister's,
former Israeli attorney attorney general, and now even most recently
(29:56):
the net and Yahoo appointed director of the Mosad himself
said Israel is practicing apartheid. So I think that the
United States is deeply complicit in that and unwilling to face.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
That stand by it right there, you know, Tolliver. This
conflict in the Middle East has gone on for such
a long time. There have been many low points as
we are in right now, certainly also some perceived high points.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Here's a clip of former President Bill Clinton just after
the signing of the nineteen ninety three Middle East Peace Agreement.
Speaker 6 (30:31):
We have been granted the great privilege of witnessing this
victory for peace. Just as the Jewish people this week
celebrate the dawn of a new year, let us all
go from this place to celebrate the dawn of a
new era, not only for the Middle East, but for
the entire world.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Former President Clinton, speaking in nineteen ninety three. Got more
calls coming right up on the Middle. This is the
Middle I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're talking about the war in
Israel and Gaza following Hamas's surprise attack on Israel. We
want to hear your questions about the war and its
implications for the Middle East and beyond. My guests are
(31:13):
Deborah Amos, longtime international correspondent for NPR, now at Princeton University,
and Nathan Thrahl, author of A Day in the Life
of Abd Salama, Anatomy of a Jerusalem tragedy. He's based
in Jerusalem. Our number eight for Middle to get back
to the phones, Brant is joining us from Houston, Texas. Brandt,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 13 (31:35):
Hey, guys, thanks so much for having me on. I
think my question probably floats around the same question a
lot of other callers have had, which is, is the
approach that Israel is using right now to address or
take care of the perpetrators of this atrocity the most
effective way of doing that? And the reason I asked
(31:56):
that question specifically is because I remember after the Afghanistan
rule or there's a lot of reflection about web or
not the invasion was the most effective way, and there
was a PBS Frontline episode that talked about how prior
to the actual invasion they had sent in select specialist
forces with kind of unlimited money and resources to go
infiltrate the networks and find the relevant individuals. And then
(32:17):
when that was eliminated as a program, there's a lot
of regret as though that had actually been a very
effective means of doing the job but had been eliminated.
So one of your thoughts, appreciate having me on.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Thank you brand deb Amus. So interesting to bring up
Afghanistan because there are probably a lot of people that
look at America's longest war and say was that really
necessary to achieve the aims of the government following the
attack of nine to eleven.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
They do, But look, let's look at where we've been
where Israel and Palestinian issues have been for quite some
time now. How the Israelis view it is it's a
manageable occupation that if you give enough economic incentives that
(33:04):
people will be Palestinians will be happy with their limited rights,
and Israelis looked outward to the Abraham Accords. Let's make
you know some relations with our Arab neighbors. The big
prize was on the way where the Israelis and the
Saudis were talking about a reprochementt and the Palestinians kind
(33:28):
of took a back seat to all of those things.
Even when the government that was before net and Yahoo
they had the same approach. We're not going to talk
about the Palestinian issue. It's just a matter of management.
And what this this event shows is that that is
a failed policy, that you cannot continue with doing business
(33:52):
as usual. It is likely that the Abraham Accords could
you know, be a casualty of this. The Saudi Represchemont
just as well. I mean it was very close. There
were you know, the Tourism Minister of Israel was in
Saudi Arabia. There was a picture of a of a
rabbi having a prayer service in a Saudi hotel where
(34:16):
you could see the skyline of Riad behind him. That's
how close it could have been. There may be a
resuscitation of it at some moments, certainly not now. But
this whole idea that you could simply manage the occupation
of this many people turns out to be not true.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Let's go to another called Beth is joining us from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Beth,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 14 (34:49):
Okay, my main question is about where we go from
here out on the equating. When the Palestinian bus overturned,
it's horrible, it's a tragedy. Nobody should have celebrated. But
(35:13):
it was an accident. It wasn't what Hamas did and
what some Palestinians have been celebrating was not an accident.
It was deliberate murder, rape, torture, and all sorts of
awful things. And I'm very concerned about the equating. But
the big question I have is in the long run,
(35:37):
how can Israel be expected to negotiate for peace when
most of its neighbors still want Israel too. That's a
stated goal, and if I'm not mistaken, I think a
few of the countries around there are are in agreement
(36:01):
with that, that Israel just shouldn't exist. We're now well
not We'm I'm a Jew, I'm not an Israeli, but
gi Israel was on I think if I remember correctly,
about seven percent that the original Balfour Declaration territory, how
much more are they supposed to give up?
Speaker 1 (36:21):
And I will yeah, well, yeah, let me take that.
Let me take that to Nathan, since you referenced what
he was saying earlier about the central premise of his book. Nathan,
your your response to Beth.
Speaker 5 (36:36):
Well, First of all, they're the celebration of the death
of kindergarteners. Innocent kindergarteners on a school bus is reprehensible
and should not be excused in any way. And what
(36:57):
difference would it make that How is it any better
that the that the bus was an accident, people are
celebrating the deaths of innocent children on a school bus.
I think the point that I was making is that
dehumanization is something that is pervasive in this place, and
(37:18):
it's something that we all need to address if we
want to stop seeing this kind of bloodshed.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Let's go to Michael, who's calling from northwest Alabama.
Speaker 15 (37:31):
Michael, go ahead, Thank you tremendously. I'm a little nervous
as this being my first time on a program I
really admire, especially since our own streaming service no longer
get c Span with its early morning telephone calls. Listen,
I'm neither to me. Both sides are flawed at the
(37:56):
average ordinary people. Their well being is my first paramount concern.
President Messignahu's decisions have been quite frawed, but come as
as just playing pure evil. I wish that the average
ordinary civilians were on the side minds of all the
people protesting here in the USA and Canada. Here's my question,
(38:21):
why are not I've heard that none of the other
Arab and or Islamic you know, like the PSI largely
Persian Iran surrounding nations are taking in the Gaza Palestinians
that Israel whom is Jerusalem urged to leave that area?
(38:41):
Why is this and why particularly not Jordan. Ever since
nineteen eighteen with a balle for degree or nineteen forty eight,
I've read that they are the Palestinians are actually Hashemites
ethnically and Jordan is there homeland?
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Yes, oh, thank you, Michael. Yeah, we've got your question
there and deb amos. Currently all the border crossings out
of Gas are closed so that the people cannot get anywhere.
But yeah, what to that question, why can't some of
the neighboring countries take in some of the people from Gaza.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
So, first of all, the Palestinians have been through this before,
uh and they have been expelled from their homes, from
their lands, and it is not an easy argument to make,
even if the border was open with Egypt, for them
to leave, because they do not believe that they could
ever come back, and so that is a tough sell.
(39:46):
Palestinians in Jordan are not Hashemiites, that is a different tribe.
Palestinians are called Palestinians because of where they come from.
The Hashemites came from Saudi Arabia and they are tribal people,
and those two communities are very different in Jordan. But
I think that the neighbors do not want to be
(40:09):
the repository of a population that gets kicked out of
an occupation, and both in both places, so don't look
for that. I'd also like to say that the truth
of the matter is Jordan does not want the elimination
of Israel. They don't say it, they don't act on it.
(40:30):
Saudi Arabia was ready to make a deal with the Israelis.
Countries in the Golf have been willing to have many
deals with the Israelis. They've hosted you know, I twenty four,
Israel's news program now has an office in Dubai, and
there's been visits there are financial deals. It is not
(40:53):
the old Middle East. This is a different place. So
it's not really fair to say all the neighbors want
the elimination of Israel. It's simply not true.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Let's go to Jay, who's calling from New Orleans, Louisiana. Jay,
welcome to you.
Speaker 16 (41:09):
Yeah, hey, thank you, And I want to add other
condolences to the victims of the massacre on Saturday. But
my question was related to actually a comment that Tom
Friedman had made yesterday about part of attributing part of
the issue with the failed now who governments. You know,
the fact that he's you know, had corruption problems and
(41:32):
he's got a very weak cabinet, and so you know,
we heard about, you know, potentially that it was all
failed policy. But what's the relative contributions of failed policy
versus also failed governors, particularly since it's relevant to potentially
where we may be in twenty twenty four in the
United States.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Great question, Jay, Nathan Thral This is the first time
we've we've had an opportunity to talk about the net
and Yahoo government. But and many I've heard people in
Israel say over the last few days, now's not the time,
but there will to talk about the failings of the
NETNYA government and the corruption and all of that. What
do you say there in response?
Speaker 5 (42:10):
You know, this failure to prevent and deal in a
timely way with the attack from AMAS, and the failure
of the intelligence services to detect that it was being planned.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
It is the.
Speaker 5 (42:30):
Largest Israeli political and military and intelligence failure since nineteen
seventy three. And this will have enormous political repercussions. There
will be a committee of investigation over this incident. Many
(42:50):
people will be remembered as responsible for this failure and
they will not be forgiven for it. It is astounding
to Israelis that this could have happened in the first
place without being detected, and that, you know, days days
(43:12):
after this occurred. This is not an army that conducted
this attack. This is a group of militants in a
besieged gaza strip under land, sea and air blockade, and
who are being surveiled like no other population in the world.
(43:32):
And days after they broke through the barrier and took
over some Israeli towns and streets and military bases, they
were still in control of streets in Israeli towns along
outside of Gaza, and I think Israelis cannot fathom that
(43:53):
that could be the case. So there will be a
very very high price to pay, which is also part
of why this moment is so dangerous, because this government
knows that, and they know that they that they must
do something extraordinary in order to escape the judgment of
(44:15):
the Israeli public devemus.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Will the government, though, have any constraints because of that,
because of their awareness of the public perception of what
happened In terms of their response, are they going to
respond in the most let's say, right wing hawkish way
possible or will they face any pressure to do something different?
Speaker 4 (44:39):
Boy, that will be something to watch. So first it
may not be the time to talk about it, but
the Israeli press is every day there's a headline that says,
you know, net Nyahu must go. What pressure that must
be upon him because his legacy is in you know,
in doubt. Nineteen seventy three, Goldemeier lost her job in
(45:04):
a similar gargantuan intelligence failure. In this case, we have
a failure of imagination, which is a bigger issue for Israel,
and so there will be a reckoning. The question I
think remains, what will the government. Do we know that
(45:28):
there is a war cabinet that the ultra extreme far right,
who also share some responsibility in the failure of this,
They move troops to the West Bank to protect settlers
who were having prayer services in the middle of Palestinian towns.
That's why they weren't on the border with Gaza. And
(45:50):
so now you have a different political arraignment in the cabinet.
Does that make a difference. Does it mean that net
Yahu is the one who gets to say, you know,
it's all at war and be damn the consequences, or
do you have cooler heads in that cabinet that say,
all right, the better thing, the better thing for your
legacy is a font to find a way to do
(46:14):
what we need to do without losing even more Israeli
troops in a ground offensive in Gaza and you know,
a huge loss of life. So I think we don't
know yet how the cabinet will respond. You know, they
have been restrained so far, they have not gone in.
They are sitting on the border and they are waiting
(46:34):
to see what happens, how Hamas responds. And so it's
hard to answer that question. Will we are all waiting
to see.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
We are just about out of time, but I do
want to go. Tolliver's been keeping an eye on what's
happening on social media and coming in online at listen
toothiddle dot com. Tolliver, what are you seeing?
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Yeah? Joan from Lincoln, Nebraska asks, can you help us
sort out the Palestinian groups and which are political versus military?
Is there still a Palestinian Liberation organization?
Speaker 1 (47:08):
Let me just before we go on any further. I
was like, let me see if Nathan could just very
briefly answer that question sorting out the Palestinian group.
Speaker 5 (47:18):
Sure, the Palestine Liberation Organization, the PLO is the umbrella
group for all of the non Islamist Palestinian political factions,
and Hamas and Islamic Jihad are two factions that are
outside of the PLO. And many Palestinian political factions have
(47:39):
both political and military wings. Many of the PLO factions
have military wings that are quite small, but military wings
that are in Gaza, just as Hamas is also a
political faction that has a military wing.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Tolliver, maybe one more.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Okayisha and Chicago Rights. I agree that what Hamas did
and the brutal killings of innocent people was horrific and
that Hamah should pay for their crimes. But I also
don't agree with the way that Israel is also attacking
innocent Palestinians and cutting off their resources.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Well, you can reach out to us at Listen to
the Middle dot com. You can leave us a message
at eight four four four six four three three five three.
It's amazing how fast an hour goes so many great
calls today. I want to thank my guests, deb Amos,
longtime international correspondent for NPR now at Princeton University. Deb
great to have you on the program.
Speaker 4 (48:29):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
And Nathan Thrall, author of A Day in the Life
of Avid Salama, Anatomy of a Jerusalem tragedy. Nathan, thank you.
Speaker 5 (48:37):
To you a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Thank you, and thanks to our DJ Tolliver in Nashville
Public Radio for hosting him this week. Join us next week,
same time, same place, Tolliver, what is our topic for
it next week's show.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
We are going to talk about the impact of America's
opioid crisis, and we're asking what solutions are working in
your community.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
And the reason we're giving you that question to you
now is because not everyone is listening to the show live,
but we want to hear from you either way. At
eight four four four Middle. Listen to the Middle dot com.
You can drop us a line. You can sign up
for a weekly newsletter there as well. The Middle is
brought to you by Long Nook Media and produced by
Joe Anne Jennings, John Barth, Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, and
Charlie Little. Our technical director is Jason Croft. Our theme
(49:20):
music was composed by Andrew Haig. Thanks to our partners
at Illinois Public Media, Nashville Public Radio, iHeartMedia, and the
more than three hundred and seventy public radio stations that
are making it possible for people across the country to
listen to The Middle, I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to you
next week.
Welcome to a special edition of the Middle I'm Jeremy Hobson.
We're going to be taking your calls this hour about
the war in Israel and Gaza. We've got two fantastic
panel guests who will help us answer your questions. And
we welcome the listeners of WAMU in Washington, d C.
And WBEZ in Chicago this week, as always, our house
DJ Tolliver is here.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hi Tolliver, Hey, how's it going. Jeremy honored to be here.
That's what the show is all about.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
This is what the show is all about, is heavy
topics like this, but allowing people to take part in
what we hope will be a very civil conversation. Taliver,
you're in Nashville this week, where we've seen in places
around the country hundreds of people gathered in that case
to show support for Israel following the horrific attack by
Hamas last weekend in which Terrists gunned down Israelis in
(00:54):
their towns and their homes at a music festival. Thirteen
hundred at least slaughtered, many hostages taken, including some Americans.
Soon after that attack, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared
war on Hamas, and Israel has been pounding Gaza with
air strikes, killing more than fourteen hundred Palestinians already. As
(01:16):
the death tool mounts on both sides of the border,
Israelis and Palestinians are bracing for a long and brutal war.
And there have been protests in some cities in the
US against Israel's bombardment of Gaza. And so this hour
we want to know from you what are your questions
about the war in Israel, in Gaza and its wider implications.
This is a difficult topic for many, and we hope
(01:37):
as always to provide a place for civil conversation. Talver,
what is our phone number. It's eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
You can also write to us at Listen to the
Middle dot com and before we meet our panel. The
attack on Israel was personal for so many people in
the United States. I spoke earlier with Jeremy Fine. He's
(01:59):
a rabbi in Deerfield, Illinois, in the Chicago suburbs at
Congregation Benet Tikfa.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
This last week has been the worst week of my life.
It has probably been the worst week of many Jews lives.
We have not experienced anything this atrocious since the Holocaust,
and the pain comes from a multitude of whats. It
(02:30):
comes from the murder, it comes from how people were
murder it comes from hostage and uncertainties of what's becoming
of people. But I think on another level that is
(02:50):
something we maybe have never seen, is that people are
celebrating and calling for morem.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Who are you talking about when you say that.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Well, there's college campuses, there's major cities where they're celebrating
the beheading of children. There's other countries around the world
who are calling for more destruction, and not just in Israel,
but beyond. I don't believe in my life there's one
person who roots on and celebrates the death of anyone.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
As you talk to members of your congregation, now, what
kind of advice are you giving them to get through
this next week, these next weeks, these next months, as
this situation continues to unfold.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
I mean, the first advice is to take care of
themselves and the people around them, to give back where
they can, whether that's in volunteerism or financially. It's to
hold hoe as high we can't. It's to pay attention
to the right news. I mean, social media can be
a place of garbage. It can be very painful. It's
(04:08):
also to find where allyship. I think the biggest one
of the other things that's going on with CHEWS right
now is we are all taking a mental moment of
who checked in and who careen, and who loved and
who stood up and who didn't because this is not normal.
No one should ever celebrate death. It should not happen.
(04:31):
You want Palesinian state. I can understand that I cannot
empathize and understand rape and murder of babies and killing
it peaceful music festival. None of this is on the
moral compass that most people live on, and hopefully the
vast majority of the world lives. Or we're all in trouble,
(04:55):
not just Israel and Jews, humanity is in trouble.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Jeremy Fine in Deerfield, Illinois. We know that many of
you have connections to the region. We want to hear
from you. Call us eight four four four six four
three three five three. Let's meet our panel guests joining
me from Princeton, New Jersey. Deborah Amos, longtime international correspondent
for NPR, now at Princeton University. She's the author of
two books on the Middle East and has won many
(05:20):
awards for her reporting. Deb So great to have you here.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Great, great to be here. It's a terrible time to
be talking. Yeah, but I'm thank you for asking me.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Well, let me just ask you briefly before we get
to our other panel guests. You've covered the Middle East
for decades. How monumental is the attack that happened and
the response?
Speaker 4 (05:42):
So I came in in nineteen eighty two. That was
my first big story, Israel in vades Lebanon. That was big,
but this is bigger. I don't think in my long
term in the Middle East that I've seen something like this.
I think it's surprised everyone, and perhaps maybe surprised Tamas
(06:04):
most of all. I mean, I've been thinking about this
over the past couple of days, and it occurs to
me that it never occurred to them that that border
was as vulnerable as it turned out to be. And
you know, all of a sudden realizing where they were
must have been extraordinary. One hundred and fifty hostages. It's
(06:28):
just unbelievable. What has happened and what could happen Simply
because they breached that wall and had full rain. If
you look at some of the numbers of how long
it took Israeli soldiers to get to some of those places,
it was hours, hours, hours and hours that people were
(06:50):
on their own. So I think that's also part of
the pain, that they were left alone, that they were
on their own. And you know, I mean, the cases
of survival were small, and people understand that.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
We've seen some of the videos of just the anger
from people about how long it took the authorities to
come and help them, if that was even possible. Let's
bring in our other panel guest, Nathan Thrahl, author of
the new book A Day in the Life of Abed Salama,
Anatomy of a Jerusalem Tragedy. He lives in Jerusalem, but
he is joining us tonight from London. Nathan, Welcome to.
Speaker 5 (07:27):
You, Thanks very much for having me.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Well, we heard from Rabbi Fine who said this was
probably the worst week for Jews everywhere. I know that
you've been in touch with people Palestinians in Gaza not
affiliated with Hamas. What are you hearing.
Speaker 6 (07:46):
Well.
Speaker 5 (07:46):
One of my closest friends lives in Gaza is a
colleague of mine for many years. Is like an uncle
to my children. And he had shrapnel in his living room.
He has gone out to the market and waited in
(08:08):
line to get bread. There is a collective punishment of
the people of Gaza right now, where Israel is cutting
off water, food, electricity, fuel to two point one million people,
(08:28):
and he's seeing that the stocks and the shelves are
already getting low. He's separated from his daughter. He's quite
recently a grandfather, and he's separated from his daughter and
his grandchildren. And looking out his window, he sends me
(08:49):
videos of just the night sky and it's complete darkness
and then punctuated by red flames just all around him.
And it's terribly frightening to be living in that kind
of vulnerability. When he went out into the into the streets,
he said that he had never seen Gaza so thoroughly
(09:15):
raised by bombing. And he's lived through all of the
past wars.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And it may be that the worst hasn't even started
to happen yet. When it comes to what may happen
in Gaza in the days ahead, the phone lines are
lighting up, so I want to at least get to
a call before we have to take a short break.
Suha is joining us from Richmond, Texas. Suha, go ahead,
it's hike.
Speaker 7 (09:41):
Good evening. Thank you for bringing this topic up. As
a Postini Palestinian American. My question is, why is it
that the lives of Israelis and the Israelis American Americans
take precedence over the Palestinian and the Palestinian American lives.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
And why do you think that's, Suha, that that's the case.
Speaker 7 (09:59):
Well, I mean, we had a journalist, a Palestine and
American journalist that was killed by the IDF, and there
was promises by Israel that they were going to get
to the bottom of this to find out why. Well, well,
we have policines. We know there's never going to be
the answer and there's never going to be the honest truth.
And it's happened time and time again. Rachel Coy is
(10:19):
another one. You know, it's proof case in point. No food,
no water, no electricity. These are based in humanitary needs
for everybody. Why is it that it's okay to cut
it off to Gasins and Palestinians, but it's not okay
that were to happen with Israel.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Suh. Thank you so much for that call. Dev Amos,
I'll go to you on that, as you've covered this
for many years. What do you say to suhat.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
So? I would be interested to know. And I don't
know if we know this yet, because it was just
announced today that the US is sending chartered flights for
people who can't get out of Israel. There are Palestinian
Americans and there are Israeli Americans. It would be I mean, look,
nobody can get out of Gaza, so that I mean,
(11:08):
we can't consider that because it is completely closed off,
but there will be people getting on those planes. I
would be shocked if Israeli Palestinians and Palestinian Israelis and
Palestinians were not equally allowed on those planes as Americans.
It's so hard to answer a question about does the
(11:31):
US government I'm assuming that's what you mean value American
Israelis over American Palestinians. I don't even know how to
count that. So it's really hard to answer that question.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Well, and in fact, we're getting notes online similar Michael
and Stillwater, New Jersey said we should stand equally for
the Palestinian people as we do for the Israeli people
and their descendants. Now at this moment in the show,
and a normal show, Tolliver, you would have some music
for us, but not tonight.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
That's right, you know, given the gravity of the topic,
I'm gonna bring you some context as you wait for
your calls and your messages. Last weekend's attack has been
compared to the Yam Kapor War fifty years ago. Here's
the news of that attack on NBC in nineteen seventy three.
Speaker 8 (12:19):
It is an all out war. That's how Israeli de
French Minister Mousha Dianne describes an invasion of the goal
On Heights and the east bank of the Siu Az
by Syria and Egypt. The surprise attacks came early this morning,
in the air and on the ground.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Fifty years ago. Stay with us. We're gonna be right
back with more of the middle. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning in, we are
a national call in show focused on elevating voices from
the middle geographically, politically, philosophically, or maybe you just want
to meet in the middle. My guest this hour, deb Amos,
longtime international correspondent for NPR, now at Princeton University and
(12:58):
Nathan Thrahll, a writer based in Jerusale whose most recent
book is A Day in the Life of Avid Salama,
Anatomy of a Jerusalem Tragedy. We're asking you for your
questions about the current war in Israel and Gaza and
its implications in the region and for the United States.
If you've got friends or family in the region you
want to tell us about, give us a call, Tolliver,
what is our number?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
That number is eight for for for a middle that's
eight four four four six four three three five three.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
And let's go back to the phones. Eric is joining
us from Fairfax, Virginia.
Speaker 5 (13:31):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Eric, welcome to the Middle Go ahead with your question.
Speaker 9 (13:35):
Hey, thank you, Jeremy, and quickly. My condoles is to
the people of Israel, the barbarity they face, and to
the innocence in Gaza who are going to reap the
world and of Hamas's decision. I'm a twenty six year
Army veteran officer two tours in Iraq as an Iraqi
Army advisor. This is my background of military history and
(13:55):
it was good Tolliver put on the seventy three war
as an example. The other example that's been put up,
and this is a cautionary tale. And my question is
around us, you know we're hearing already this is Israel's
nine to eleven. Well, from America's standpoint, after nine to eleven,
we couldn't conceive that a terrorist organization, a non state
actor could carry out such a sophisticated attack without direct
(14:19):
state sponsored material and technical support. And it gave us
we wanted to strike out, and we went and we
conflated the war into something it was not, making the
axis of evil Iraq, Iran, Syria, Korea as targets of
ore ire And the guess my cautionary tale in question
(14:40):
for israel Is as they I already hear the calls
for striking out against Iran, the calls for this must
be larger the access of Russia and Iran. So my
question is what should would you believe Israel needs to
do to maintain this focus and the United States especially
(15:00):
maintain this focus on a war of what it is,
and keep it from conflating and expanding into a war
that it was not initially at least intended, may be
intended to be, at least on the Israeli side.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Great question, Eric, I'm going to go to Nathan Thrall
with that, does how does this war stay or can
it stay between Israel and the Palestinians and not spread
into a wider regional war.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
Well, first, I would say that the war is now
being conducted rather than between Israel and Hamas, as it
should be between Israel and the Palestinians, as you say,
with the decision to cut off food, water and electricity
to two point one million innocent people. So the first
(15:50):
thing is I think the focus needs to be on
Hamas and not the innocent people of Gaza. The wider
conflagration with Hasbolah is something that Israel very much does
not want to happen. The United States does not want
to happen right now. And I think that the degree
(16:16):
of devastation that we are going to see now in
Gaza is worrisome enough. And even if we just look
at what Israel is facing with respect to Gaza, they
are very likely to do a ground invasion, and that
ground invasion is going to be extremely bloody. And the
(16:39):
onus is on the Israeli government to show the Israeli
public that they are going to do something qualitatively different
in response to an attack that it was qualitatively different,
and how they can do that without losing tremendous Israeli life,
and how they can do that with an exit strategy
(17:01):
is something I don't think they really have a good
answer for.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Well, and deb amos to Nathan's point about this being
now a war between Israel and the Palestinians, not just
a moss because they're cutting off aid and food and
water to the two million people in Gaza. What Israel
and what the government has said is if Hamas is
going to operate out of schools, out of hospitals, out
(17:27):
of civilian infrastructure in Gaza, then how are we supposed
to go after the people that were trying to go
after without affecting everybody else?
Speaker 4 (17:38):
So two things. One is, you know, there's not been
an election in Causa since what two thousand and five,
So it's not that the civilians support this. There were
some people that were happy, we saw them, and of
course who else would you photograph on the street but
(17:59):
the people who are cheering, So we don't really know
how many people were stewing in their homes thinking okay,
this is really going to get to us. The idea
that if you cut off food, water, medicine, gasoline. If
the idea is to have Palestinian civilians rise up against Tamas,
that is unlikely. That is really unlikely. Two, there are
(18:24):
plenty of retired former Israeli intelligence officers who have said,
very publicly in Israeli newspapers, you cannot eliminate Hamas. You
tried that once and the last time you did it,
what happened is, yes, you decapitated the leadership, but not
the movement. And then we didn't know who the leaders were.
(18:46):
It was harder then until we knew who was running
this show. So my guess is that there are divisions
in Israel about what this strategy is because there are
plenty of experience Israeli military people who say, yes, you're
saying you're going to destroy Hamas, the problem is you
cannot do it.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Let's go to another call. Francis is joining us from
Hanover Park, Illinois. Hi Francis, welcome to.
Speaker 10 (19:13):
The Middle Hi, thank you for having.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Me, Thanks for being here. Go ahead with your question.
Speaker 10 (19:20):
First one, I want to say, as a humanitarian, I'm
shocked and horrified by what happened in with a surprise attack.
I'm just worried about is there a way for peace forwards?
Because with Israel cutting off food, water, electricity, everything to
(19:45):
the guys Strip, it just doesn't seem like there's what
is their endgame? How can this conflict stop without it?
It seems like Israel's only move forward is to just
take over and destroy all the buildings and kill all
the people there.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
Unfortunately, Francis, thanks for that call, Nathan, Is there an endgame?
Do you see? Is there any way that whatever happens
now ends up with a more peaceful region?
Speaker 5 (20:20):
So I think that you know, no matter what happens
in the coming days, in weeks and months, Israel is
going to find itself in a situation in which it
controls the lives of an equal number of Jews and Palestinians.
(20:41):
Seven million Israeli Jews, seven million Palestinians between the river
and the sea the territory under Israel's control, and the
vast majority of those Palestinians are living without basic civil rights.
And that is the greater problem that Israel does not
have an answer for. And if we want to stop
(21:06):
seeing this horrific violence and this terrible bloodshed, we need
to examine this obviously unjust system that is leading repeatedly
to violence. And what we are all too often are
doing is we see the violence, we pay attention to
(21:28):
the violence, and we call for a restoration of calm.
But what is that calm? What is that status quo
anti that we are calling to return to. It's calling
to return to a situation that is filled with daily pain,
with daily violence. And that was really the aim of
my book, A Day in the Life of Avid Slamo,
(21:50):
was to focus people on the lives of Israelis and
Palestinians living in this awful system.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
And you know, the.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
Brutality that we've seen both in the collective punishment and
in the Hamass attack on Saturday. That brutality and that
pain and that dehumanization is something that all of these
people are living with, and the characters in my book
are living with. And you know, earlier somebody had spoken
(22:21):
about celebration and dehumanization. You know, my book is about
a bus accident of a group of kindergarteners, Palestinian kindergarteners
who were on their way to a play area and
it was struck by a giant semi trailer. The bus
flipped over and caught fire and innocent bystanders came and
(22:46):
pulled these kids off of a bus, and by the
time the Israeli fire trucks came, all of the kids
had been taken off to different hospitals. And afterward there
were Israelis who were young Israelis without using pseudonyms, who
were posting online celebrating the deaths of kindergarteners. And this
was so upsetting to a left liberal Israeli TV anchor
(23:11):
that he created a whole TV feature about the Israeli
reaction to the deaths of these kindergarteners on the school bus.
And it goes in every direction, this level of dehumanization
and pain. You know. I tell the story in the
book of a Palestinian doctor who was just on her
way to deal with a group of local Bedouin when
(23:34):
she came upon this burning bus and as she is
helping to rescue children from this bus, all she can
think of about is her experience as a young doctor
in Tunis in nineteen eighty five when Israel bombed the
PLO headquarters and she was picking up body parts out
of the rubble, and the Israeli paramedics who arrived very
(23:58):
late on the scene you know, they're looking at the
bombed out, the burned out shell of a bus, and
they're thinking of the suicide bombings, the horrific suicide bombings
that they had to live through. And I really feel
that it's incumbent on all of us to make sure
that we put our eyes on the situation, the everyday
(24:18):
lives of these people, even when and especially when we're
out of these periods of escalation in Gaza.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Let's go to another call. Aaron is joining us from Alexandria, Virginia. Aaron,
welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
Hi.
Speaker 11 (24:36):
Yeah, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 12 (24:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (24:40):
So I'm reminded, I'm an Israeli American. I'm reminded of
a Golda Mayor quote back in Nike around the Yam
Kipur and seventy three war, where she said, if the
Arabs put down their weapons, there would be peace if
the Israelies, if Israel would put down their weapons, there
would be know Israel. And that's that's sort of that
(25:02):
that quote has been in my mind for a few days,
so I wanted to sort of share that quote but
also ask about the the solution to you know, how
you respond to such a heinous act of terror that
Hamas had Uh had done to you know, the towns
(25:23):
of the south and and and in Israel, everyone knows
someone who knows someone who has been affected by it.
And I'm definitely affected emotionally by this. But how do
you then target Because one of your panelists said, well,
you want to target Hamas, not the Palestinian population, which
I completely agree with. But how do you target an
organization that embeds itself within a densely populated or uh
(25:48):
uh popular, densely populated area and hides behind these citizens
and now hides behind the hostages. How do you target
just Hamas when they use those people, those people, well,
they're own people as human shields.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Aaron, thank you for that call. Deb Amos, let me
go to you on that. This is what we brought
this up a bit earlier. But how does Israel target
just from us in a place like Gaza, which is,
by the way, one hundred and forty square miles and
two million people.
Speaker 4 (26:18):
So for starters, we are at the beginning of the beginning.
I mean, there's so much we don't know about, whether
this is a one front war, a two front war,
a three front war, I mean those the longer this
goes on, you know, we will have the magnitude of
additional horrors will grow. So maybe maybe someone could consider
(26:41):
another way to do this. Because I was in Israel
in twenty twenty one, the last time there was a
fight between Israel and Hamas. Two years later, you know
that the Israelis often talk about mowing the grass. They
say that very very openly, that Gozic can be contained.
Goz It can be dealt with, Gose it can be
(27:03):
kept calm. You just have to every once in a while,
there's going to be thumping back and forth. This event
shows that that is a failed policy. Two years later,
we're back here again in a catastrophic moment, and so
one hopes when clear thinking returns. I mean, we are
(27:28):
still in just you know, a terrible time of grief,
and it's it's hard for people to be rational about
what should happen next, But there has to be some
thought to maybe maybe the policies that have gone before
have been failures and someone needs to rethink this.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Let's go to Bruce in Chicago. Bruce, welcome to the middle.
Go ahead with your question.
Speaker 12 (27:54):
Yes, my question to you is why since nineteen forty eight,
the United States, Europe, and the United Nations has supported
Israel's takeover of Palestine, and over those years, the United States,
the Europeans, and the United Nations has failed to support
(28:16):
Palestine in its home homeland. As I'm seeing it, Israel
is practicing aparthei in the name of religion. This is
the same gang plan that has been played in South
African Aparthi American Indians killing slavery in America, South pacificas
losing their islands in Southeast Asia. This is the same
(28:37):
game plan in a different part of the world. And
I would like to know what are these politicians going
to do to stop this?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Bruce, thank you for that question. Nathan. You know, if
you look at even just his use of the term Palestine,
that is not recognized by the United States, by most
of Western Europe at this moment, a lot of the
world does recognize the quote state of Palestine. But what
(29:05):
do you say to to Bruce.
Speaker 5 (29:10):
Well, I think that you know he is responding to
an international consensus among human rights organizations that Israel is
practicing apartheid as defined in international law. This has been
the finding of all the leading Israeli human rights organizations,
(29:33):
the leading Palestinian human rights organizations and the leading international
ones Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. So that is,
you know, a consensus in the international human rights community.
It's also been the finding of former Israeli cabinet minister's,
former Israeli attorney attorney general, and now even most recently
(29:56):
the net and Yahoo appointed director of the Mosad himself
said Israel is practicing apartheid. So I think that the
United States is deeply complicit in that and unwilling to face.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
That stand by it right there, you know, Tolliver. This
conflict in the Middle East has gone on for such
a long time. There have been many low points as
we are in right now, certainly also some perceived high points.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Here's a clip of former President Bill Clinton just after
the signing of the nineteen ninety three Middle East Peace Agreement.
Speaker 6 (30:31):
We have been granted the great privilege of witnessing this
victory for peace. Just as the Jewish people this week
celebrate the dawn of a new year, let us all
go from this place to celebrate the dawn of a
new era, not only for the Middle East, but for
the entire world.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Former President Clinton, speaking in nineteen ninety three. Got more
calls coming right up on the Middle. This is the
Middle I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're talking about the war in
Israel and Gaza following Hamas's surprise attack on Israel. We
want to hear your questions about the war and its
implications for the Middle East and beyond. My guests are
(31:13):
Deborah Amos, longtime international correspondent for NPR, now at Princeton University,
and Nathan Thrahl, author of A Day in the Life
of Abd Salama, Anatomy of a Jerusalem tragedy. He's based
in Jerusalem. Our number eight for Middle to get back
to the phones, Brant is joining us from Houston, Texas. Brandt,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 13 (31:35):
Hey, guys, thanks so much for having me on. I
think my question probably floats around the same question a
lot of other callers have had, which is, is the
approach that Israel is using right now to address or
take care of the perpetrators of this atrocity the most
effective way of doing that? And the reason I asked
(31:56):
that question specifically is because I remember after the Afghanistan
rule or there's a lot of reflection about web or
not the invasion was the most effective way, and there
was a PBS Frontline episode that talked about how prior
to the actual invasion they had sent in select specialist
forces with kind of unlimited money and resources to go
infiltrate the networks and find the relevant individuals. And then
(32:17):
when that was eliminated as a program, there's a lot
of regret as though that had actually been a very
effective means of doing the job but had been eliminated.
So one of your thoughts, appreciate having me on.
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Thank you brand deb Amus. So interesting to bring up
Afghanistan because there are probably a lot of people that
look at America's longest war and say was that really
necessary to achieve the aims of the government following the
attack of nine to eleven.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
They do, But look, let's look at where we've been
where Israel and Palestinian issues have been for quite some
time now. How the Israelis view it is it's a
manageable occupation that if you give enough economic incentives that
(33:04):
people will be Palestinians will be happy with their limited rights,
and Israelis looked outward to the Abraham Accords. Let's make
you know some relations with our Arab neighbors. The big
prize was on the way where the Israelis and the
Saudis were talking about a reprochementt and the Palestinians kind
(33:28):
of took a back seat to all of those things.
Even when the government that was before net and Yahoo
they had the same approach. We're not going to talk
about the Palestinian issue. It's just a matter of management.
And what this this event shows is that that is
a failed policy, that you cannot continue with doing business
(33:52):
as usual. It is likely that the Abraham Accords could
you know, be a casualty of this. The Saudi Represchemont
just as well. I mean it was very close. There
were you know, the Tourism Minister of Israel was in
Saudi Arabia. There was a picture of a of a
rabbi having a prayer service in a Saudi hotel where
(34:16):
you could see the skyline of Riad behind him. That's
how close it could have been. There may be a
resuscitation of it at some moments, certainly not now. But
this whole idea that you could simply manage the occupation
of this many people turns out to be not true.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Let's go to another called Beth is joining us from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Beth,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 14 (34:49):
Okay, my main question is about where we go from
here out on the equating. When the Palestinian bus overturned,
it's horrible, it's a tragedy. Nobody should have celebrated. But
(35:13):
it was an accident. It wasn't what Hamas did and
what some Palestinians have been celebrating was not an accident.
It was deliberate murder, rape, torture, and all sorts of
awful things. And I'm very concerned about the equating. But
the big question I have is in the long run,
(35:37):
how can Israel be expected to negotiate for peace when
most of its neighbors still want Israel too. That's a
stated goal, and if I'm not mistaken, I think a
few of the countries around there are are in agreement
(36:01):
with that, that Israel just shouldn't exist. We're now well
not We'm I'm a Jew, I'm not an Israeli, but
gi Israel was on I think if I remember correctly,
about seven percent that the original Balfour Declaration territory, how
much more are they supposed to give up?
Speaker 1 (36:21):
And I will yeah, well, yeah, let me take that.
Let me take that to Nathan, since you referenced what
he was saying earlier about the central premise of his book. Nathan,
your your response to Beth.
Speaker 5 (36:36):
Well, First of all, they're the celebration of the death
of kindergarteners. Innocent kindergarteners on a school bus is reprehensible
and should not be excused in any way. And what
(36:57):
difference would it make that How is it any better
that the that the bus was an accident, people are
celebrating the deaths of innocent children on a school bus.
I think the point that I was making is that
dehumanization is something that is pervasive in this place, and
(37:18):
it's something that we all need to address if we
want to stop seeing this kind of bloodshed.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Let's go to Michael, who's calling from northwest Alabama.
Speaker 15 (37:31):
Michael, go ahead, Thank you tremendously. I'm a little nervous
as this being my first time on a program I
really admire, especially since our own streaming service no longer
get c Span with its early morning telephone calls. Listen,
I'm neither to me. Both sides are flawed at the
(37:56):
average ordinary people. Their well being is my first paramount concern.
President Messignahu's decisions have been quite frawed, but come as
as just playing pure evil. I wish that the average
ordinary civilians were on the side minds of all the
people protesting here in the USA and Canada. Here's my question,
(38:21):
why are not I've heard that none of the other
Arab and or Islamic you know, like the PSI largely
Persian Iran surrounding nations are taking in the Gaza Palestinians
that Israel whom is Jerusalem urged to leave that area?
(38:41):
Why is this and why particularly not Jordan. Ever since
nineteen eighteen with a balle for degree or nineteen forty eight,
I've read that they are the Palestinians are actually Hashemites
ethnically and Jordan is there homeland?
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Yes, oh, thank you, Michael. Yeah, we've got your question
there and deb amos. Currently all the border crossings out
of Gas are closed so that the people cannot get anywhere.
But yeah, what to that question, why can't some of
the neighboring countries take in some of the people from Gaza.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
So, first of all, the Palestinians have been through this before,
uh and they have been expelled from their homes, from
their lands, and it is not an easy argument to make,
even if the border was open with Egypt, for them
to leave, because they do not believe that they could
ever come back, and so that is a tough sell.
(39:46):
Palestinians in Jordan are not Hashemiites, that is a different tribe.
Palestinians are called Palestinians because of where they come from.
The Hashemites came from Saudi Arabia and they are tribal people,
and those two communities are very different in Jordan. But
I think that the neighbors do not want to be
(40:09):
the repository of a population that gets kicked out of
an occupation, and both in both places, so don't look
for that. I'd also like to say that the truth
of the matter is Jordan does not want the elimination
of Israel. They don't say it, they don't act on it.
(40:30):
Saudi Arabia was ready to make a deal with the Israelis.
Countries in the Golf have been willing to have many
deals with the Israelis. They've hosted you know, I twenty four,
Israel's news program now has an office in Dubai, and
there's been visits there are financial deals. It is not
(40:53):
the old Middle East. This is a different place. So
it's not really fair to say all the neighbors want
the elimination of Israel. It's simply not true.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Let's go to Jay, who's calling from New Orleans, Louisiana. Jay,
welcome to you.
Speaker 16 (41:09):
Yeah, hey, thank you, And I want to add other
condolences to the victims of the massacre on Saturday. But
my question was related to actually a comment that Tom
Friedman had made yesterday about part of attributing part of
the issue with the failed now who governments. You know,
the fact that he's you know, had corruption problems and
(41:32):
he's got a very weak cabinet, and so you know,
we heard about, you know, potentially that it was all
failed policy. But what's the relative contributions of failed policy
versus also failed governors, particularly since it's relevant to potentially
where we may be in twenty twenty four in the
United States.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Great question, Jay, Nathan Thral This is the first time
we've we've had an opportunity to talk about the net
and Yahoo government. But and many I've heard people in
Israel say over the last few days, now's not the time,
but there will to talk about the failings of the
NETNYA government and the corruption and all of that. What
do you say there in response?
Speaker 5 (42:10):
You know, this failure to prevent and deal in a
timely way with the attack from AMAS, and the failure
of the intelligence services to detect that it was being planned.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
It is the.
Speaker 5 (42:30):
Largest Israeli political and military and intelligence failure since nineteen
seventy three. And this will have enormous political repercussions. There
will be a committee of investigation over this incident. Many
(42:50):
people will be remembered as responsible for this failure and
they will not be forgiven for it. It is astounding
to Israelis that this could have happened in the first
place without being detected, and that, you know, days days
(43:12):
after this occurred. This is not an army that conducted
this attack. This is a group of militants in a
besieged gaza strip under land, sea and air blockade, and
who are being surveiled like no other population in the world.
(43:32):
And days after they broke through the barrier and took
over some Israeli towns and streets and military bases, they
were still in control of streets in Israeli towns along
outside of Gaza, and I think Israelis cannot fathom that
(43:53):
that could be the case. So there will be a
very very high price to pay, which is also part
of why this moment is so dangerous, because this government
knows that, and they know that they that they must
do something extraordinary in order to escape the judgment of
(44:15):
the Israeli public devemus.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
Will the government, though, have any constraints because of that,
because of their awareness of the public perception of what
happened In terms of their response, are they going to
respond in the most let's say, right wing hawkish way
possible or will they face any pressure to do something different?
Speaker 4 (44:39):
Boy, that will be something to watch. So first it
may not be the time to talk about it, but
the Israeli press is every day there's a headline that says,
you know, net Nyahu must go. What pressure that must
be upon him because his legacy is in you know,
in doubt. Nineteen seventy three, Goldemeier lost her job in
(45:04):
a similar gargantuan intelligence failure. In this case, we have
a failure of imagination, which is a bigger issue for Israel,
and so there will be a reckoning. The question I
think remains, what will the government. Do we know that
(45:28):
there is a war cabinet that the ultra extreme far right,
who also share some responsibility in the failure of this,
They move troops to the West Bank to protect settlers
who were having prayer services in the middle of Palestinian towns.
That's why they weren't on the border with Gaza. And
(45:50):
so now you have a different political arraignment in the cabinet.
Does that make a difference. Does it mean that net
Yahu is the one who gets to say, you know,
it's all at war and be damn the consequences, or
do you have cooler heads in that cabinet that say,
all right, the better thing, the better thing for your
legacy is a font to find a way to do
(46:14):
what we need to do without losing even more Israeli
troops in a ground offensive in Gaza and you know,
a huge loss of life. So I think we don't
know yet how the cabinet will respond. You know, they
have been restrained so far, they have not gone in.
They are sitting on the border and they are waiting
(46:34):
to see what happens, how Hamas responds. And so it's
hard to answer that question. Will we are all waiting
to see.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
We are just about out of time, but I do
want to go. Tolliver's been keeping an eye on what's
happening on social media and coming in online at listen
toothiddle dot com. Tolliver, what are you seeing?
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Yeah? Joan from Lincoln, Nebraska asks, can you help us
sort out the Palestinian groups and which are political versus military?
Is there still a Palestinian Liberation organization?
Speaker 1 (47:08):
Let me just before we go on any further. I
was like, let me see if Nathan could just very
briefly answer that question sorting out the Palestinian group.
Speaker 5 (47:18):
Sure, the Palestine Liberation Organization, the PLO is the umbrella
group for all of the non Islamist Palestinian political factions,
and Hamas and Islamic Jihad are two factions that are
outside of the PLO. And many Palestinian political factions have
(47:39):
both political and military wings. Many of the PLO factions
have military wings that are quite small, but military wings
that are in Gaza, just as Hamas is also a
political faction that has a military wing.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Tolliver, maybe one more.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Okayisha and Chicago Rights. I agree that what Hamas did
and the brutal killings of innocent people was horrific and
that Hamah should pay for their crimes. But I also
don't agree with the way that Israel is also attacking
innocent Palestinians and cutting off their resources.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Well, you can reach out to us at Listen to
the Middle dot com. You can leave us a message
at eight four four four six four three three five three.
It's amazing how fast an hour goes so many great
calls today. I want to thank my guests, deb Amos,
longtime international correspondent for NPR now at Princeton University. Deb
great to have you on the program.
Speaker 4 (48:29):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
And Nathan Thrall, author of A Day in the Life
of Avid Salama, Anatomy of a Jerusalem tragedy. Nathan, thank you.
Speaker 5 (48:37):
To you a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Thank you, and thanks to our DJ Tolliver in Nashville
Public Radio for hosting him this week. Join us next week,
same time, same place, Tolliver, what is our topic for
it next week's show.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
We are going to talk about the impact of America's
opioid crisis, and we're asking what solutions are working in
your community.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
And the reason we're giving you that question to you
now is because not everyone is listening to the show live,
but we want to hear from you either way. At
eight four four four Middle. Listen to the Middle dot com.
You can drop us a line. You can sign up
for a weekly newsletter there as well. The Middle is
brought to you by Long Nook Media and produced by
Joe Anne Jennings, John Barth, Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, and
Charlie Little. Our technical director is Jason Croft. Our theme
(49:20):
music was composed by Andrew Haig. Thanks to our partners
at Illinois Public Media, Nashville Public Radio, iHeartMedia, and the
more than three hundred and seventy public radio stations that
are making it possible for people across the country to
listen to The Middle, I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to you
next week.
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