August 20, 2025 • 60 mins
Author, speaker, and “Radiant Rebel” Karen Walrond joins Chip Conley for a warm, inspiring conversation on how to age with joy, live on your own terms, and keep your spark alive.
From growing up between Trinidad and the U.S., to leaving engineering and law for a creative life, Karen’s story is full of bold choices and unexpected turns. She shares cultural insights on aging, how to break free from the “success script,” and the seven playful experiments from her new book In Defense of Dabbling that prove it’s never too late to try something new.
Packed with heart, humor, and practical wisdom, this episode will leave you smiling and inspired to chase your own adventures.
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
00:45 Introduction to Karen Walrond
01:58 Growing up & career journey
06:50 Midlife shift toward writing and creative work
11:38 Cultural perspectives on aging in Trinidad vs. the U.S.
16:55 Defining the “Radiant Rebellion”
19:14 Resisting societal scripts
23:06 Aging in non-white cultures
31:43 Collaboration with Brené Brown
36:12 Introducing In Defense of Dabbling
40:03 The 7 attributes of dabbling
44:08 Why trying new things matters as we age
50:42 Karen’s experience teaching at MEA workshops
53:11 Karen’s wisdom bumper sticker
57:10 Chips’s closing reflections on joy, culture, and lifelong learning
Learn more about MEA at https://www.meawisdom.com/
#AgingBoldly #MidlifeReinvention #RadiantRebellion #LifeOnYourOwnTerms #NeverTooLate #MidlifeTransformation #CuriosityAndPlay #JoyfulAging #BreakingFree #LiveFully #MidlifeMotivation #RedefiningSuccess #KeepYourSparkAlive #IntentionalLiving #TrySomethingNew
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I would say that my chrysalis really started early 30s when I
moved to London. Like that to me felt like really
transformational. Your experience at MEA talk
about that. I mean, what was it like?
It requires a lot of bravery, but it's in a space where you
feel completely cared for. We should be doing the things
(00:20):
that we love. We should be amateurs, one who
loves doing something, particularly as we age, right?
Because it keeps tapping you into all of those things as you
get older. Welcome to the Midlife Chrysalis
Podcast with Chip Conley, where we explore how midlife isn't a
crisis, but a chrysalis, a time of profound transformation that
can lead to the most meaningful chapter of your life.
(00:45):
Welcome to the midlife chrysalisand my episode with Karen
Walrand, who is somebody I got to know the over the last couple
years and I just love her. She's an MEA faculty member.
She has a, a workshop coming up in November.
And part of the reason I, I, I really enjoy my conversation
with her is because she's somebody who is really open to
(01:06):
learning something new. Her new book, which is coming
out in Defense of Dabbling, endorsed by Brené Brown, who's a
close friend of Karen's, speaks to this idea that, hey, why are
we not learning new things our whole life?
One of my favorite questions to ask at any cocktail party is at
what in your life are you a beginner these days?
(01:27):
So we talked about that. We talked about her, her other
book, one of her other books, the Radiant Rebellion about
aging and and just how do we keep our light as we age?
I think you're going to enjoy this.
She's an inspiration to me and Ithink she will be for you as
well. Check it out.
I know your personal story. A lot of other people don't.
(01:49):
This is a great way for us to just know who you are.
So I so we don't write, read some boring bio about you.
Give us, give us your bio, but with your your humorous, joyous
fingerprints all over it all. Right, all.
I hope it won't be as boring as my written bio, but let's let's
go. So I am, I'm Karen and I was
(02:13):
born on a very small island in the Caribbean called Trinidad.
If you think of the archipelago of the Caribbean islands, it's
the very last one next to Venezuela.
So I was born there of Trinidadian parents of
Trinidadian grandparents, sort of grew up there and the United
States. At the same time.
My dad was in the oil industry. Oil is really big in the
(02:35):
Caribbean. And so we moved back and forth a
lot. So I would say that my formative
years were Trinidad. I consider myself Trinity to the
bone, as we say in Trinidad, butI spent a lot of my childhood in
America as well, and my last time we moved back and forth
probably every two years or so. The last time we moved was my
(02:58):
senior year in high school, although I had already graduated
high school in Trinidad at 15. But I was young and so colleges
didn't want me and it was reallyhard to get me into high school
because I already had a diploma.But we managed to get me into a
high school where instead of thelanguages that I had focused on
in high school in Trinidad, Spanish and French, my engineer
(03:21):
father suggested that I focus more on sciences.
So I did physics and chemistry and calculus and all the things
for my last last year of high school and then ended up going
to engineering school for, for college at Texas A&M University.
And so I got a civil engineeringdegree purely to please my dad,
(03:44):
actually to really please him. I would have gotten a petroleum
engineering degree, but I didn't.
I I was a rebel so I got AI, gota solo engineering degree.
I graduated in 88, got married to my first husband, which plays
into Chrysalis's later on. But I got married to my first
(04:04):
husband. Realized within a year I did not
want to be an engineer. So I thought, well maybe I'll go
back to school. Definitely not a graduate degree
in engineering because this is not it.
So either law or MBA, and every engineer I knew was getting an
MBA and LA Law was on the air atthe time and they were all these
(04:25):
lovely, sexy, hot lawyers. And I thought, that's what I
want to be. That is not, by the way, a good
reason to go to law school. But that is where I went to law
school. That's why I went to law school.
So I ended up going to law school at the University of
Houston part time. I was working full time and then
going to school until my last year of law school and then I
went full time, got the law degree, got divorced.
My divorce was my first case andthen.
(04:49):
Wait, you're you're you were thedivorce attorney for your
divorce? And that's exactly right.
It's. Oh my gosh.
Yes, it's cheaper that way. I knew it was a very amicable,
thank goodness, amicable divorce.
And we had no kids. And so it was an easy, it was a
very, very easy divorce. So I was a single lawyer, single
(05:10):
finally. I was probably what, 27 by that
point and I was single and really kind of living on my own
for the first time because I gotmarried back out of college and
just loving it was having a really, really great time.
Had the opportunity to move to England for for my work when I
was about 31 or so and so moved to London and met my second
(05:35):
husband while I was there and soI we got married.
We met, he asked me to marry him18 days after my first date and
I said. Yes, wow.
That's bananas. That's also something else you
shouldn't do, but I did. We got married and, you know,
lived. We actually just as I was, we
were about to get married, I gota promotion to be the general
counsel of my company and they were like, you got to get back
(05:57):
to the States. So we literally married and came
back to the states a year and a half after that.
We adopted our daughter Alexis. And exactly a year after that,
my husband who worked at the same company I did, got an
opportunity to work in Trinidad,back work back home.
(06:19):
So I quit my job and went back home with our daughter, with our
one year old. That's really when I started
writing a lot. I was really, I was doing a lot
of of writing then and we were there for a couple of years,
came back to the States, I worked, I came back and was at,
was a lawyer, got another job asa lawyer for a couple of years
(06:41):
maybe. And then was like, yeah, I
really want to be a writer. And how old were you at that
point? By then I would have been, guess
what, 3536 right in. There the the dawning of
midlife. The dawning of midlife.
Exactly. So so that's so since then.
I mean, I'm, I'm sort of speeding up now.
We have lived in in the States the entire time.
(07:05):
Our daughter is now in her aboutto enter her last year of
college. We actually a year ago just
bought a little tiny flat in England.
So we're now splitting our time between England and the States,
looking to a future of probably full time in England again,
looking to have a daughter launched hopefully in the next
couple of years. And and I'm writing books and
(07:28):
I've written lots of books. I wrote the book The Radiant
Rebellion, which is how you guysyou know me.
The radiant I have I have right in front of me, right for those
on video, you can see that I literally this is The funny
thing about this Karen, I just finished.
So this is, you know, like a journal and for me, it's my To
Do List and things like that. I literally just finished it
(07:48):
this morning. It's now it's now.
So now I now I have to, I have the new one which I just started
this morning writing and and so the timing of this is perfect.
That's really funny. Radiant Rebellion and you, you
did an MEA workshop on that. You're doing an MEA workshop on
that this fall. I The Light Maker's Manifesto.
Correct. Yeah, that's about joyful
activism. So that one came sort of first.
(08:11):
I wrote a book many years ago before that, but the Light
Maker's Manifesto is about aboutjoyful activism.
Radiant Rebellion is about joyful aging and also resisting
ageism. So it's sort of like an
evolution of that. And then I have a new book
coming out this year which is called In Defense of Dabbling
the brilliance of being a total amateur.
And it's all about creating a self transcendent life.
(08:34):
We're coming back to that one because we're we'll, we'll spend
some good time on that. But let, let's spend a few
minutes on your midlife chrysalis, which it sounds like
might have happened in very early midlife.
Did you, do you feel like the time when you had a big
transition was around mid 30s because of your career or was
there another transition, major transition that went on, you
(08:56):
know, in your 40s or even early 50s?
I would say that my chrysalis really started early 30s when I
moved to London. Like that to me felt like really
transformational. It felt, you know, I'm, I'm the
eldest of 2 girls, elder of 2 girls, an immigrant and a people
(09:17):
pleaser, right? Like I was like, I'm going to
make my dad. And my dad grew up extremely
poor. He sort of scholarship his way
into a PhD in petroleum engineering.
And so the idea that we did not that we like, there was no way
we weren't going to college. There was no like we had to
excel. I always felt like I, I was
doing whatever dad pretty much and mom, but pretty much dad
(09:40):
suggested I do, strongly suggested I do.
And so when I turned 31, first of all, I got divorced.
My parents are still married, right?
So that was already like, whoa, what is she doing?
So I just, I'd pretty recently gotten divorced in the last
three or four years and I was leaving the country on my own.
Well, plus you had also stepped away from engineering.
Let's be honest about that, too.Well, no, when I went to London,
(10:02):
I was still, I would, yeah, I stepped away from engineering,
but it was OK because I went to law school, right.
So. So even though I had stepped to
engineering, it was like it was still considered an evolution
because it was law school. It wasn't like I left to become
a rock star or something like that, right?
So, so I was going to law and I was still a lawyer in the oil
industry, which my dad was in. So it wasn't really that big of
(10:22):
a shift. You're such a fucking rebel.
Look at you. Exactly.
Right. So moving to London really felt
like, I mean, that's certainly not rebellion, but it felt like
it was the first time that I wasreally coming out from behind my
my under the wing of my parents,right.
So, so that was probably the biggest thing, you know, and,
(10:43):
and, and London, let me be real,like, I love London.
London is one of my favorite cities in the world.
But it was, it's a hard place tomove to, right?
Like, like it's not. I always say that, you know,
Americans, you're a friend untilyou prove otherwise.
But Brits are the opposite, right?
You're not a friend until you prove your friend, right?
So whereas Americans will be like, yeah, hi, welcome.
(11:04):
We'll go have dinner and then maybe they'll drift apart,
right? And England, they're sussing you
out for a while before before they decide you're, and then
they're your friend for life, right?
Once you're a friend, they're your friend.
But it was a really surprisinglydifficult navigation because I
assumed, well, you know, I grew up in an English school system
in Trinidad and I speak the language.
(11:25):
And so this will be very easy. And of course, that was an
extremely naive way to approach it.
So that I think was the start ofit was that.
And then of course, meeting my husband and then becoming a
mother and all that. Like all of that was happening
in my 30s, right? So let's talk about the we'll,
we'll focus on the US for right now.
What do we get wrong about both midlife and aging?
(11:47):
You know, the, the radiant rebellion is, is really about
seeing the light that can come with age.
And yet the way we tend to look at this as a culture is there's
a dimming. It's like there, you know,
you're a big, you're, you're a bright light bulb at age 25.
(12:08):
And then it just starts to dim. And it's just this, it's like
the dimmer just gets worse and worse until you die.
And I don't think that's your point of view.
In fact, what it's what does it say?
Keep making light? Yeah.
Behind me. Yeah, keep making.
Light. Yeah, your neon on the back wall
there. Keep making light.
So tell us about your point of view on aging and midlife.
Because I've moved back and forth between the Caribbean,
(12:31):
between Trinidad and America, I think I and I think both
countries treat aging very differently.
And in a lot of ways, I think I have a very Trinidadian outlook.
You know, my closest models for aging are my parents.
And so I sort of have them as kind of role models and my
(12:52):
parents it well in Trinidad, let's just say Trinidad is much
and I'm speaking in gross generalities right here, right?
Like obviously there's going to be exceptions to every horrible
generality and stereotype that I'm about to enter into, but
there's certainly capitalism in Trinidad, don't get me wrong.
But there is a sort of, there isn't the sort of
(13:15):
competitiveness about how much you're going to make.
Let's just start with that, right?
How much you can make and what and he who dies with the last
you know what most wins kind of thing that I feel like there is
more in America and to a certainextent in England, right, but to
a certain extent. And so I think first of all,
that's part of it. And as we get into midlife in
America and we start to look at things like retirement, right
(13:37):
like that, there's a sudden there's this idea of you're
slowing down, you're not contributing as much right,
which I don't feel is as huge ofan issue in the Caribbean.
So we'll start with that. The second thing is beauty for
women, right? I feel like the, the concept of
beauty in Trinidad versus America is very different.
(14:00):
And I think a lot of, honestly, I blame a lot of it on Carnival
in Trinidad, right 'cause we have a very big Carnival like.
I love it right now, yeah. And.
So we and so there's this sort of like every year there are
women of all shapes and sizes and men of all shapes and sizes
in very skimpy costumes and you know, and we're all just sort of
rebelling in each other in the sun and the music and everything
else like that. And so there's this really kind
(14:21):
of freedom in in like beauty andwhat beauty looks like.
And then there is in the USI feel like in the US, there's
this sort of like their marketing to you that you should
start intervening on the aging process at a very it's a
shocking young age. It's like at 24 years old here,
which doesn't happen in the US. So there's so I think culturally
(14:42):
there's a lot of differences in that.
And I think here because of that, and literally, as I've
talked in the book, it that's sort of baked into society.
Like we Americans did not hate aging at the beginning of the
20th century, right? As a matter of fact, aging was
sort of revered. And until, you know, the World
War's in the Great Depression, when a lot of 30 year olds were
(15:04):
sort of out of jobs, Then the the government said we're going
to have to have a mandatory retirement age so these young
men can take care of their parents.
And all of a sudden aging becamea problem that needed to be
solved, right? And it was literally sort of
baked into the culture that hereaging is a problem that needs to
be fixed. That's sort of the way that it's
thought of here. And that's where we get it
(15:26):
wrong. Because once we've been sort of
steeped in this idea that if you're not contributing to like
the economy, you're useless. If you're not, if you don't look
20, you're useless, right? If when you start to get into
that, then aging becomes something that's very, that's
fearful, right? And I don't believe that to be
the case. And I've witnessed that it's not
(15:46):
the case that first of all, I mean, even living here in the
United States, like all of my friends who are around.
But yeah, I would say within 1010 years of my age, I'm, I
just turned 58. So let's say certainly between
48 and 68. These are people that are
writing books, becoming best sellers, starting doing Broadway
plays like creating retreats, right?
(16:08):
Like all of these things are happening at this age where
we're finally, we, we know ourselves better.
We're more confident in what we're able to do.
A lot of us have more of the money that that we would have
had than we weren't when we werein our 20 or something like
that. And we have this sort of power
that I think is overlooked because of this idea that oh,
(16:29):
no, no, no, no, no, you're getting older.
You're when in fact, we're actually coming into our power,
I would say, as we enter into midlife.
And that's a really strange. And that's really why I wrote
the book, because I could not reconcile this idea of, well,
we're supposed to be winding down life.
And as you have met, you know, when everybody around me was
really sort of revving up like it was really some really great
(16:52):
legacy building wonderful thingsthat were happening around me.
So is that, did you just sort ofdescribe what the Radiant
Rebellion is and and if if there's anything else you want
to add to your point of view of what is the Radiant Rebellion?
Yeah, so you know the Radiant Rebellion.
It's really funny because I, I wrote the book at a really sort
of pivotal, pivotal time in my life because I was my marriage
(17:15):
was turning 20, my daughter was turning 18 and about to leave
university and I was turning 55.Felt like everybody who heard
that these things were happeningto me were only happy about the
20 year marriage, right? Like everybody was like O55
double nickels. Are you OK with that?
Or, you know, oh, your daughter's leaving, you know,
empty nest. And I didn't understand it,
(17:35):
right? Because I was like, well, first
of all, like getting older is the goal, right?
And also having my kid leave andgo off to college a bit, that
was always the goal as well, right?
Like that. So I didn't really, really
understand it. So I embarked on the book
thinking, I'm going to go like interview people about all the
different aspects about aging that I'm certainly thinking
(17:56):
about, like spirituality and health and all the things and
take their advice and see what comes up and what I came up with
and what I think the rebellion is.
It's not about like ditching thehair dye or do like it.
I don't care what you do. Like what you know, if you dye
your hair, if you don't dye yourhair, if you.
But what I want people to do is really interrogate why they're
making the decisions they're doing this and how much of the
(18:18):
decisions you make in your life,whether or not it's how you
dress, what you wear, how you pray, the adventures you go on,
the things you try, the things you choose not to try, that you
understand that you making thosedecisions independent of what
society tells you it should be. So if you stop dying your hair,
like are you doing it or, or if you keep dying your hair, are
(18:38):
you doing it because society says you need to keep dying your
hair? Or are you doing it because of
some real things? You your job, you'll get fired
for your job, which I heard frompeople who were in media right
that were saying that if I stop or people who were who were
single were saying that people will swipe.
I don't I've never done a singlething but what swipe left or
right depending and reject and they and really lose out on or
(19:01):
just. Hopefully not swipe your.
Purse exactly right. But and and those are real and I
just want people to make sure that they're making these
decisions with full knowledge. And that's the rebellion, right?
Of full knowledge of why. There's a, a phrase we use at
MEA called success script. And, and, and in many ways, you
know, the, there's a, and successism.
(19:25):
The, the terms consumerism is I think 60 or 70 years old now.
And it, we all know what that means.
Consumerism is there's a, an overall definition in society.
You described it earlier with the US and the UK versus
Trinidad and you feel a little oppressed, oppressed by that
consumerism point of view. Similarly, successism is when
(19:49):
there is a success dynamic in a in a culture, often in your
community, most often in your family.
And your job is to actually be the actor speaking from that
success script that you inherited, which is something
that you and I have in common until we both said Nope, not not
(20:11):
for me. But I think one of the key
things about midlife crisis and now maybe the midlife chrysalis
is people waking up to the fact that at 40-50, maybe even 60,
you realize that you are an actor in someone else's play and
it's time for you to write your own screenplay.
(20:32):
And I think that to me is a big piece of, of, of what you've
been writing about. Yeah, for sure.
And you know, it's so funny. I was thinking, so my daughter's
21 and she's about to enter her last year of college.
And and I know you have kids as well.
And there's something really interesting about being in
(20:53):
midlife with kids who are about to enter adulthood, right?
Like fully really enter adulthood.
And I wonder often if that chrysalis is often prompted
because we're watching, you know, young people close to us
about to embark on this and that.
I mean, I think we're always reflective anyway in midlife.
(21:16):
But I think that probably intensifies it, right?
Because as you're thinking aboutwhat are the advice, what's the
advice you're going to give to this young person?
And, you know, my daughter's been home for the summer and
we've had a lot of conversationsaround, you know, like what's
potentially on the horizon for her And what, what, And it's so
interesting to me, like how muchof what I tell her is informed
(21:37):
by the fact that I lived this script for a long time and have
decided not to and wanted to be and wanted to be the the
parents. That is like, I want to give you
all the advice that I can give you, but I also want you to live
your own life, right? And I want you to do it smartly.
And I want you to do it like I want you to do it with some
forethought, But it doesn't haveto be some sort of thing that
(22:02):
you think I need you to be, right?
And so I was thinking like, I wonder if if this new
generation, this Gen. Z or even Gen. alpha will
approach midlife in a totally different way than maybe, you
know, you and I have because of the way that we grew up and
success ISM and what that you know what the 80s and and like
everything like the whole yuppiething and everything that was
(22:24):
happening when we were kids, right?
Yeah. I mean, I think EU curve of
happiness research, which has shown that generally speaking,
people's level of life satisfaction declines their
twenties, 30s and 40s and then bottoms out around 45 to 50.
What's showing up right now is that young people like your
daughter's age are much less happy than we were when we were
(22:49):
that age. So it is possible that the
euchre of happiness is just going to be a, an incline
constantly getting better such that, well, aging's a good thing
now because quite frankly, in your 20s, you know, life sucks
and 30s it's getting a little bit better and 40s maybe a
little bit better, But, but we'll see.
I, I want to ask you a, a, a cultural question because you
(23:10):
talked about Trinidad relative to the, to the US.
Do you think the experience of being black and aging is is
quite different than being maybethe dominant race in the US,
being white? Ray Jetson is a friend of mine
and he's going to be teaching itat MEA next year.
He has a he has a book called Aging While Black that's coming
(23:32):
out this summer. Oh, I can't wait to read that.
Yeah, no. So what do you think?
What's what is experience? Because I know frankly, one last
thought. There's a guy named Jonathan
Mildenhall. He was our chief marketing
officer at Airbnb. He's an MEA alum and when people
started calling me modern elder and then I said, you know,
Jonathan, I'm going to create this modern elder Academy.
(23:53):
And I mean, he like, he's a, he's like a big time marketing
person. Modern elder Chip, that is the
best. I think that's the best.
And he was he's, he's also a Brit.
He's a he's, he's so he's, he's African English.
So Long story short is he said, it's amazing.
And then when we started launching it out there, it's
like everybody's like elder. What a terrible word.
(24:16):
Nobody wants to be an elder. And, and, and then I went back
to Jonathan and I said, Jonathan, what is it?
And he says, well, culturally inthe black community, being an
elder is revered, appreciated, and you have multi generations
living together and, and, and therefore there's a sense that
you're connected to your elders.So tell us a little bit more
(24:38):
about your point of view as a black American and Trinidadian
and Brit and Brit and all. You know, you're a lot of
hyphens and a lot of lot of flashes there.
What's it like? So I don't write about this in
Radiant Rebellion, but it is something that I talked with
about as particularly with with the doctor that I interview who
(24:58):
is of Indian descent. And I asked her, like, do you
think that of the people who talk to you about aging in your
office, I make up that the ones who are really scared of it are
white. And she said, yeah, that's true.
More so more so let's I I don't want to say like, I mean, for
sure, like everybody worries about aging like that.
(25:19):
I don't want to do that. But I do think, and I also, I
also, I did, and this I actuallydid talk to about in the book
with a friend of mine who is Eritrean.
He was born in Eritrea. He grew up in Ethiopia.
And I think America's kind of both.
And like in international schools, and he said as well, he
(25:40):
goes, yeah, there's a difference.
Like there's a you when you walkdown the street and you see an
older person in in East Africa, in his case, like you
acknowledge them, right? It's not this idea of
invisibility that you hear so much about in the US, right?
Like you, you, you acknowledge the person that person is, is
sort of revered for their wisdom.
(26:01):
And that's very, very cultural In Trinidad.
I would say it's, it's somewhat similar for sure.
Like like one thing that I thinkthat we do here that I mean in
Trinidad that that I've not seenAmericans do, is any elder,
particularly your parents, your parents contemporaries are
called auntie and uncle, right? So it's always auntie so and so
(26:25):
and uncle so and so and auntie so and so and so.
There's a built in sort of reverence there because they're
given this honorific as a child.Even even if they're not blood.
Especially your mom's best friends, your like the only
people used to Mr. and misses are people like your teachers or
like somebody that you meet thathas no relationship to your
family other than a professionalone, right?
(26:46):
But everybody's and I raised my kid the same way.
Like a lot of my very good friends are Auntie Laura, even
though they're American. I'm like, Alex, this is Auntie
Laura. I the idea of my daughter
calling somebody older than her by their first name is bananas
to me. Like it is bananas.
And it's very and I, I have to say when I hear her friends call
(27:07):
me Karen, like there's a little part of me that's like, that
feels wrong, right? Like that feels that feels
wrong. I live in the South.
I live in Texas, so there's a lot of Miss Karen, Miss Karen,
can you do this? Miss Karen, can you do that?
That that actually feels better.But there's this sort of built
in kind of reverence for people who are older than you and you
get it as a child. And so I think that that's part
(27:29):
of the thing, right? That happens as you get older
that I would never ever, ever even me at my big ass 58 years,
like my parents friends will never be, but I would never call
them by their first name ever. They're either anti so and so or
Missus so and so that is it LikeI would just never do it.
And I think that that actually is sort of built in a kind of
(27:52):
reverence that you don't really see in America.
Like you really don't hear that.And especially I think now like
I don't think any of my daughter's friends, I've never
heard them calling me Missus Jennings or Missus Walrand or
Mr. Jennings. Like it just I you don't hear it
at all anymore. And I think that's, I don't
think it's a pity, but I do think it affects how people view
aging, right? You know when we, we've done 2
(28:15):
exclusively black modern elder workshops and you weren't part
of either one of them, but I happen to be a part of both.
And it was, I was the only whiteperson in the room.
And often I was not in the room.I, I was there for some of the
content. What was so interesting, Karen,
Miss Karen, although I'm older than you, so I don't know if I
call you Miss. Karen.
(28:35):
Yeah, you could call me Karen. You're.
OK, you know, we do this thing at the start of the workshop and
you, you, you've experienced it in the workshop that you and I
did together, which is if you really knew me and people then
say something from what we call the third vault.
The first vault be our, our, ourbrain, our, our facts.
The second vault being our stories from our heart, the
third vault being the essence ofwho we are, from our gut, from
(28:59):
our place of wisdom. The African American
facilitators, there are five of them actually, who helped lead
the workshop and said we're not doing, if you really knew me,
Chip, we're going to do if you really knew my name, my first
and last name, you would know. And then the person talks, each
person would talk about the origins of their last name,
(29:21):
which sometimes if you actually,if your family was, you know,
from the US, not obviously not originally, it might be a land,
you know, a absolutely. Same in the Caribbean.
Absolutely. Yeah, it, it might be a land
runner or a flavor. And then the and the first name.
And often for, for many African Americans, they have a very
unique first name. The process of having people
(29:43):
tell their stories and then say,I am bringing into the room
right now my, my great grandmother, who I met, you
know, for a short time of her life.
And she has had this impact on me and she continues to have it.
And she's here meet with me right now.
And so you do not hear white people talking that way very
often. But it was such a, it was such a
(30:05):
core part there. This lineage, this idea of
roots, this idea that I come from these people, is so much
more embedded in black culture in the United States.
By the way, the the people who have called me Miss Karen that
generally are black, right? Love my, my daughter's Fred,
like interestingly enough, but absolutely there's definitely
(30:27):
that. I mean, for sure my, my last
name is an enslaver's last name for sure.
Like we've traced it. What's interesting, my first
name, Karen, which now has been dragged through the mud in
recent years, but but was given to me specifically because my
mother, knowing that we would likely be and like we would
likely do a lot of work. Our family, like I would
(30:49):
probably end up being a professional in the US, decided
she wanted as ordinary a name aspossible because she was afraid
of that any other name would be considered would be racist,
right? Like people would would treat me
with a different thing. So that's for sure is true.
So I mean, yeah, I think it's and I and also I, I just want to
add that I have friends of mine who are of South Asian descent
who auntie and uncle is also very, very common right in
(31:11):
their, in their culture as well.So I think that there definitely
is some sort of, you know, sort of baked in rituals and things
like that that we don't even really think of.
It has having anything to do with aging, but certainly has to
do with revering the old with the olders and the elders in our
in our communities that I think you don't see as much in white
(31:34):
communities in America. I, I mean, I'm making that up
and somebody's bound to say that's not true.
We did that, you know, as well and listening to this, but
that's sort of my experience. So let's switch gears for a
second before we talk about yournew book.
Let's like let's dish about Brené Brown.
So you. Love to do that every time we
talk to each other. You always bring her up.
We're all, you know what, because I just find her so
(31:55):
fascinating that she came out ofnowhere, you know, did a Ted X
talk, not even a Ted talk, a TedX talk.
And it, and it just like blew, blew the doors off of societal's
perspective on vulnerability andon, you know, just authenticity
and talk for a moment about yourrelationship with her.
(32:16):
You both are in Houston. How did how did you guys work
together? Well, we we were friends way
before we worked together. We actually met.
Interestingly, you this would appeal to you because you're
you're a retreat person. We met because a woman who had
seen both of us write online, wewere both bloggers at the time.
(32:36):
Brene was a Blogger, invited a bunch of bloggers she admired to
a house in in in Oregon on the Oregon coast and said I think we
should all hang out and none of us really knew each other and
for some reason all of us said yes, which is very weird.
Brene and I were the only two from Houston who were invited.
And so we ended up meeting aheadof time and then we became
(32:58):
really, really good friends. And so this was before her Ted
Talk. This was, she was a professor at
University of Houston and that was primarily her work, right?
She had written a couple of books, couple of books.
I think she'd probably was just about to write The Gifts of
Imperfection, but she wrote another book before that called
(33:19):
I thought It Was Just Me, but I think those were the only two
that were were out at the time. And we just became really good
friends. And and I was at that Ted TEDx
talk because it was TEDx Houstonthat she did that.
And I remember she was the firstperson that morning to speak.
And after she spoke, she came and sat next to me and she was,
(33:40):
she was nervous and she was like, how did it go?
What did you think? And I, I literally said, I think
you just changed your life. And it, I mean, and then of
course, from then on she became the Brené Brown that everybody
knows. And then both, there have been
two instances where I have worked with her, where she, you
know, I worked with her for a few years, like in mids in mid
(34:02):
2000s. And then I most recently worked
with her until, I don't know, 2020, 2:00-ish or so.
And yeah, we've, we've just remained really good friends.
We don't see each other as oftenas we used to because she's now
the Brené Brown. But yeah, we've been friends now
for, gosh, I mean, that must have been 2012 or so.
(34:23):
So it's, it's been well over a decade, 1516 years now.
What have you learned from her? What what?
What would you say as observing a friend of yours?
What? What wisdom have you learned
from? Her, you know, I, I think the
easy answer is to say, oh, shame, vulnerability.
I don't think that's really the thing that I learned from her.
She's very, very thoughtful and very meticulous and very like
(34:49):
she considers all the angles of everything before she does any
any sort of word thing, before she makes a hire, the way she
runs meetings, the way that she she plans what her next books
are going to be the way that youlike.
She's very, very I, I want to use the word strategic, but I,
I, I the strategic without any sort of, without any of the, the
(35:12):
negativity about it. Yeah, like that, that it can
because it's not that. I mean, it's not calculated, you
know, it's not like being calculated, but it's sort of
like being really, really thoughtful about how, how am I
going to do this? How can I communicate that?
And then the other thing that I think is I don't she hasn't
taught it to me. I wish you would teach it to me,
but is she is just magical with language.
(35:35):
You, you have that you and I have talked about that like you,
this sort of turn of a phrase and being able to take, to take
concepts and make them very digestible and understand by, by
lots of people, I think is just a real gift of hers.
And it's certainly I, like I said, I don't think she's, she's
taught it to me, but it's certainly something that I try
(35:55):
to be aware of in my own writing, in my own speaking and
try to emulate that sort of thing.
I, I think it's natural for her.I think it's natural for you.
I for me, if, if it happens, it's because I, I've agonized
over the, you know, the turns ofphrase and stuff like that.
I think she's really, really, really great at that.
So let's talk in defense of dabbling in defense.
Of dabbling. Title is the brilliance of being
(36:17):
a total amateur You taught me something already and that is
that the word amateur the word amateur.
Who knew that the Latin root of amateur and you think ama like
ama. Oh well, it's sort of like
anything that circles that AM could be like maybe love but not
amateur is not about love. Although I could say that I'm
(36:38):
occasionally an amateur at love but.
Are we all? Tell us, tell us about the root
of the Word amateur and why you decided to write this book and
all of the fun you had in writing it.
And it's I'm hoping it's going to be a best seller.
Oh, I do too. Thank you.
And also, and the very last chapter is about my experience
(36:59):
at the MBA Academy in Santa Fe, like, which is very, very cool.
So, yeah, so I started writing this book or I started having
the idea to write this book whenI was still writing Radiant
Rebellion. And I was, I'm writing radio
rebellion and I'm talking sort of, you know, about aging and
aging joyfully. And, and the process of doing
that, I've like, I'm putting selfies of myself up like hula
(37:23):
hooping and just doing really silly things.
And everybody, every time I put up a picture of me hula hooping,
which let's be very clear, I am a full amateur at like I, I
can't do tricks or anything. Like I'm, but everybody would
say, oh, I wish I could do that.I would.
I'm, you're so brave to have done that, right?
I could never do that. And I'm like, well, first of
(37:44):
all, you don't know if you can'tdo it.
If you try and simply brave likeit's a hula hoop, like, like I'm
not getting paid for this, right?
Like what the worst thing that will happen literally is the
hoop will fall down like nothingbad is going to happen just
because I tried this. And so I was really sort of
intrigued by this sort of resistance to do anything or oh,
(38:05):
I, if I tried doing that, I would look like an idiot.
Like, OK. And so I really was like, why
are people not doing this? So I, I, I was interested in
this idea. And then so I, I, I talked to my
publisher and I was like, I really want to write this book
about like trying things and doing things just because you
love them without turning them into a side hustle, without
(38:27):
having to master them. And she's like, oh, that's
really interesting. Let me take it to our marketing
people and see what they think, right?
Because the book's got to sell. And when she came back to me,
she said something I thought that was really interesting.
She talked about a young woman in her marketing department, a
young black woman and who was inher 20s.
(38:48):
And she said, I love the idea ofthis book because I feel like as
a young black woman, I am constantly trying to excel so
much to be able to, like, make my parents please, to represent
my race, to make my ancestors pleased that I've forgotten how
to be interesting. And I thought that is the most
heartbreaking thing I've ever heard.
(39:09):
And so I, I really, I, I wrote the book and I came up with the
seven attributes of intentional and maturism, which is how do
you do something and make sure you're just doing it for the
love of doing something and not falling into perfectionism or
thinking about side hustles or anything else like that.
So I'm going to, how do you do it?
And I'm going to try something that represents each of these
things. So it included like pottery and
(39:32):
surfing, which was like about, you know, like playing with your
comfort zones edge and tapping into wonder in awe, which was
photographing the Milky Way, which I tried to do when I was
with you in, in Santa Fe. How'd that go?
Not great. It was cloudy.
I was so mad. I'm like, it's the desert, why
is it so? Cloudy, you're coming back.
You're you're coming back. So you can do it again.
(39:53):
Go go through these 7 attributes.
Let's go through the seven attributes and and and if you're
open to it, like tell us the thebeginner thing you did sure with
each of those. Two of them, yeah, actually,
that's the only way I can usually remember them all, is
what I did. So curiosity.
I've got them written here in case.
Awesome. So curiosity is one of them.
And the thing that I tried for that was pottery, which is
(40:17):
because I was just and, and curiosity is also not just
curiosity about I'm curious about what will happen as I do
this, but I'm also curious aboutmy own reactions when things
don't go well, right? Or when things do go well.
And what's that about? Right?
So curiosity was one, mindfulness was 1.
And I started a swimming practice, which was very weird
(40:38):
for me because I as a Caribbean person, I love the ocean.
I do not love pools, but I did it self compassion.
And what was really interesting was each one of those were
something else until I started writing it and I'm like, oh,
this is really about self compassion.
So self compassion was actually about detachment of ego.
That was what it was originally going to be.
(40:59):
But then I realized that really what it is, it's about doing
something that you can practice self compassion with.
And this one, I was also interested in doing something
that I used to be good at but hadn't done in a while.
And so I knew I was not going tobe that great at it again.
And it was piano. So I played piano for a long
time in my childhood. It had been decades and sort of
(41:20):
going back and knowing that I was going to be frustrated that
I couldn't do what I used to have done.
So, so that's self compassion. See, play I think was one of
them. Play was, was one.
That one was, I think I did filmmaking for that one.
I'm a photographer. I've been a photographer for a
long time. So I thought it'll be easy,
it'll be fun. I can do, I can play.
(41:41):
It's a camera. I know cameras.
It was excruciatingly hard, but I love it.
So that was film making videos, right?
Let's see what else was there. Zone stretching.
Zone stretching. Yeah, stretching your comfort
zone, that one and, and that wasreally interesting because it's
not about going outside of your comfort zone.
It's about really sort of doing something that makes it feel a
(42:02):
little uncomfortable. So I, I wasn't bungee jumping or
anything like that, but surfing was what I did for that one.
I'm a scuba diver. I love the ocean.
So I surfing. That was hysterical.
How many is that? Is that 5?
That's five, yeah. Next one is connection.
Connections, doing something with somebody else, because as
you know and somebody who studies aging, like connection
(42:23):
is one of the biggest things youcan do is really having strong
connections with someone. And so this was about doing
something with something somebody.
And so I did sailing with my husband.
I went sailing, which was really, really fun and then
wonder and all was the last one about tapping into wonder and
all. And that was photographing the
Milky Way, which I've never donebefore, even though I'm a
photographer and it I'm interested in continuing now.
(42:45):
I will tell you what was the thethings that so the learnings
from the book. I will say first of all, every
one of them, you're doing more than one thing, right.
Like if I'm, I'm like pottery stuck for me, like I am a
complete Potter. That's all I do now.
I go several times a week and it's yes, it's curiosity, but
it's also mindfulness and it's also self compassion when things
(43:06):
go wrong, right? Like there's a lot of things
like that. So everyone thing you usually
can exercise many of them. The other thing was that really
having a hobby which sounds so light and so especially in a
culture that values like production, right?
It seems so silly, but it's, I really came to understand that
(43:27):
it is a self transcendent way tolive, that the reason that we
should be doing the things that we love, we should be amateurs.
One who loves doing something isfor the same reason that people
tell you you should do yoga or you should do meditation.
Like for some of us, yoga and meditation doesn't feel natural,
but whittling does. And it still taps you into that
mindfulness and that curiosity and all the things that we
(43:50):
should be tapping into for our own spiritual growth.
And so it, I've become a real evangelist and I say now that,
you know, your job doesn't make you interesting, but your
hobbies do like, like, like, andthat we should all be doing
something that that helps us and, and really particularly as
we age, right? Because it keeps tapping you
into all of those things as you get older.
I'm so excited about this book because I think it's a really
(44:12):
important part of the ingredientof growing older.
You know, one of the things we talked about at MEA is the fixed
in the growth mindset and you know, the fixed mindset being
proving yourself and winning, the growth mindset being
improving yourself and learning.And one of the things that's
challenging for a lot of people as they get older is they only
(44:32):
want to play games that they canwin or they are nervous or about
how it will look if they're an idiot trying to surf or trying
to bake bread or whatever it is.And, you know, yet curiosity and
openness to new experiences are both positively correlated with
living a longer, healthier, happier life.
(44:53):
So how do we help introduce to people the idea that if you're
only playing games that you can win, your sandbox is getting
smaller and smaller, you're going to get more bored.
So there, it's so important. And it, you know, one of the
sort of surprise factors for people who come to MEA is that,
Oh, I'm gonna try things that I'm not used to.
I'm not used to being in a wisdom circle, speaking from my
(45:14):
third vault. And like without any kind of
filter, I'm not used to riding ahorse.
I'm not used. To surfing up to seats.
I mean, you know, petroglyphs. Yeah, I'm not used to walking up
a full hill at 6500 feet and looking at petroglyphs at 7:00
in the morning. I'm not used to in what we're
(45:36):
doing now occasionally in Santa Fe's carrier, like, Oh my God, I
I know, I know. I'm not used to baking bread
with another group of people. I'm not used to.
There's so many I'm not used to and that's fine.
You know what? You were never used to anything
in life when you were born. You were not used to walking.
(45:56):
And if you were that self critical child baby who was so
worried about what everything everybody else was saying about
you and pointing at you when you're trying to go from
crawling to walking, you would still be crawling.
So the. Truth is that when we're young,
we are introduced to the idea that we're going to do a lot of
firsts. We're going to try this thing
and that thing and there's even data that shows that when we're
(46:19):
doing a lot of firsts, we prolong life.
We have a tendency what what actually makes life speed up and
feel like, wow, it's just going by is when you're bored and
you're not trying new things, trying new things like the
Endless summer. The idea of the endless summer,
which we sort of think back to maybe being a kid was the the
(46:40):
idea of trying things like new things over and over again.
And that prolongs our perspective on time.
This is so valuable. Additionally, getting into a
state of flow, which is something that you probably do
with pottery now because you actually have built some talent
around it. I haven't, but yes.
OK, well, but. You I built some skill, but very
(47:02):
little talent. OK.
OK. So, but at least you get when
you're in a state of flow you have you would have a tendency
to lose track of time. Absolutely.
Do you think that you lose trackof time when you're a?
100 percent, 100% so. Losing track of time.
There's some new data that showsthat actually, when people are
in flow and losing track of time, there's some evidence that
shows that their time clock slows down to almost 0.
(47:24):
So it's like like when you're ina timeless state, weirdly you
actually are not. A timeless stake?
That's right. And so this book's really
important and I think the premise that in midlife we are
open, especially if we have sometime and space back in our life.
You know, one of the challenges with our thirties, 40s, and if
we're raising kids, if we're doing sandwich generation,
(47:45):
taking care of parents, is there's not a lot of time.
But as we get into our 50s and maybe even more so our 60s, we
get to a place where we have some time, time affluence, which
gives us space to try something new.
And one of my favorite questions, which you've heard me
say before and some of our podcast listeners, is 10 years
from now, what will you regret if you don't learn it or do it
(48:06):
now? I think it's just such an
important question because anticipated regret is a form of
wisdom. Well, you know, and I talk about
all those things. I talk about regret, I talk
about flow, I talk all about things.
Those things in the book, I willtell you the thing that was and,
and I probably, I don't know if I said this, I hope I did, but
the thing that has surprised me,first of all, let me be totally
(48:27):
frank. I probably would not have tried
all those things if I wasn't writing a book, right?
Like, like chances are like the the reason, like even the even
the, the, the surfing thing, which I loved like we got there,
we were in Mexico and I was like, I'm going to surf, I'm
going to surf. And then the day came and I was
like, I could just stay at the, you know, I just could stay on
the beach, right? I, I could do this, but I was
(48:47):
like, I'm writing this book. I've got to surf.
So there's a lot of that. Like, like the, the, the I had
an impetus. I had AI had a reason to, to try
all these things. But what was so lovely about
having the experience of trying all these things was discovering
what I was capable of. Like that was really cool.
Like who knew I could stand up on a surfboard at 57?
(49:11):
You're like, what? Like that is that is bananas.
And I did right. Or who knew that like pottery.
I, I, I just said I, I am not a talented Potter, but I'm getting
to be a skilled Potter, right? Like it's, I don't have a
natural talent at it, but I'm getting pretty good at it.
And like, and that's really interesting because I was an
engineer lawyer, like who would have known engineer who's
(49:33):
squeamish about being dirty? And here I am like elbow deep
and clay, creating something very artistic and that and just
being able to discover these whole new different sides of
myself that I had discounted because of the stories I'd
made-up based on previous experience.
I'm like, why not create new experience to expand that story,
right? Like that?
(49:54):
That's the beauty of it. And to expand the identity, to
let go of the identity of being the lawyer or that, you know,
the engineer and to say like, well, at this very moment, I'm a
Potter. So in your, in your workshop
this fall and early November, you will be both taking this
idea of aging and, and this finding your light and, and
(50:17):
having a rebellious spirit of just plotting your own, curating
your own life. But you're going to combine that
with some of this idea of like, what does it mean to be an
amateur? And how does how do you create
and curate a a really wonderful life and age beautifully because
of the adventures that you create for yourself in pottery
(50:37):
or whittling or hiking or surfing or whatever it it may be
for sure. Your experience at MEA last fall
or last summer, talk about that.I mean, what was it like?
Well, I mean, first of all, let's just talk about the
facility and the food is bananaslike so amazing.
(50:58):
So, so that, like I, I, I would be remiss if I didn't mention
that what I think was really lovely, what was really lovely
about that experience and singular, I think about that
experience, not just for me, butI think for all the
participants, is it requires a lot of bravery, but it's in a
(51:19):
space where you feel completely cared for.
And what a, what a like, how rare is that, right?
Where you're required to be brave and yet still know that
ultimately you're pretty safe, right?
Like, like you're going to do some scary stuff, but then
you're going to eat some really great food and you're going to
hang out on a fire with a bunch of people, new friends and
(51:40):
you're going to share and you'remake new friends and you're
going to stay until like, like that's a really, we don't get
that. I mean, we got that maybe in
summer camp when we were kids, but we don't really get that as
full adults, right? It's a time when I think you,
you, it's rare to make space foryourself, to just think about
yourself. And it's hard to, even if you
(52:01):
could do that, it's hard to do that without knowing what to
think, right? And so the idea that you're
going to get all these prompts and you're going to get like
with me, as you know, I'm big onjournaling and everybody gets a
journal. And I encourage people to
journal and I encourage people to go to all these beautiful
parts of the facility and spend time with their journal and
their thoughts. And then we sort of unpack them.
And I think, I mean, let's be clear, we don't unpack what you
(52:23):
wrote, but we unpack maybe things that may have come up for
you in the process of writing. Like what you write is your is
what you write. And I think that that idea of
just sort of making space where you don't have to worry about
cooking meals because that's going to be done and it's going
to be really healthy. You don't have to worry about
like, oh, am I going to get any workout in today?
Trust you're going to get movement and you're going to get
(52:45):
fresh air and your body is goingto be careful.
And you're also doing this beautiful self excavation and
self discovery. It's just it's magical.
So it was really, really great and that, and I say that as
somebody who was not a participant, right?
Like I even got that and I was doing a lot of the leading of
the of the things as well. And I still was able to make
some time for myself to be able to do that, which was wonderful.
(53:05):
Yeah, beautiful. Well, it's happening again in
November and we're thrilled to have you back.
Last question for you is you've learned some things along the
way. You've built some wisdom based
upon life experience. If someone asked you to come up
with a bumper sticker, a wisdom bumper sticker, that's Karen
(53:26):
Warren's wisdom bumper sticker based upon her wisdom
fingerprints of the life she's lived, what might be that wisdom
bumper sticker? And is there an origin story for
it? Because, quite frankly, our
painful life lessons are the rawmaterial for our future wisdom.
So often that wisdom came from the school of Hard Knocks.
I have two, can I have two? Yeah, you can have two.
(53:47):
I want 2. All right.
So the first one, and I think it's one that I really try to
live, is that I think kindness is a power move.
And I think that, and I, I mean that sincerely.
I don't, I think people think ofkindness as weakness.
I think kindness is soft, but I actually think it is the secret
sauce to life. So that's one thing it is
related to the other one that I will tell you about and that
(54:08):
came up actually in the last week.
I told you I've been talking to my 21 year old.
So my my 21 year old is in at University of Colorado and she's
studying communications and, butshe's also a very gifted and
talented guitarist. And as she's coming close to the
end of her time at school and she's doing really well at
(54:28):
school and she's going to get her degree and she's going to
graduate like really with great grades and everything else,
she's also thinking maybe I wantto be a rock star.
Like and like, and, and it's nota, it's not a, it's not a pipe
dream thing. Like she's good.
And so I was talking to her about it and I said, you know, I
feel like there's three things that I've taught you and or two
(54:50):
things I've taught you. I have one more thing to teach
you and then I think I'm done. Like, I think you're going to do
this. All right.
The first thing when you were a kid is I wanted you to work
hard. And I told you that it wasn't
about getting great grades or being the best in your class,
but when people see you working hard, that means something.
When people see that you that that means something to them,
right? Like they, that means more than
(55:11):
being the best in the class or the most talented.
Then when you got a little older, I told you, be kind was
the big thing. And it was about not just being
kind to your friends, but being kind to your teachers and being
kind to the people all around you because people will
remember. And if you work hard and you're
kind, that opens everything. That opens the doors for
everything, right? Right.
So now I'm going to teach you the third thing.
And the third thing is be strategic.
(55:33):
And what I mean by that is like if you want to go be a rock
star, go be a rock star. I don't care.
But you've just gotten this education about communications
around communications. Like every experience you've had
gives you a little bit of knowledge and wisdom that in the
pursuit of whatever you want to do, don't just discard it.
Like there's things that you have learned every single step
(55:54):
of the way that will help you get make it to that next step.
And So what you need to do, maybe it's you get a
communications job in the music industry while you figure out
like how does the music industrywork while you're gigging at
night and doing all these? I think, but be strategic about
pursuing that other goal. So so I think the second, the
second bumper sticker would be work hard, be kind, be strategic
(56:17):
would probably be it. I think that's, and then I said
after that, I have nothing more to teach you like like if you do
all those three things, I don't think there's anything else to
left to teach you. Are you a wise one?
Oh, thank you. Likewise back at you, my friend.
Karen, it's a it's a joy to be on this call with you or and to
just know that you are part of our guest faculty and and you
(56:39):
know somebody who I really admire.
So thank you for I'm excited to see the book, the books coming
out this on September. 23rd. 23rd OK.
And so I think this this episodeis going live right around then.
So it's perfect timing. Go out and buy the book.
Go out and sign up for Karen's workshop in early November in
(57:02):
Santa Fe and check her out. Thank you.
It's an honor to be with you allthe time, every time.
Isn't she fun? I hope you want to like hang out
with her because my gosh, she is.
She's a joy to be with. And I, I think some of the words
that really define her, I would say my first sense of, of, of
(57:26):
what I learned from that was joy, kindness, being smart.
She calls it strategic. I'll call it smarter, wise.
She's got character qualities. I think that, you know, when
ideally as we get older, our character qualities are even
more present. And that's so often what we call
wisdom. But I for for Karen, she's she
really reminds me of that Maya Angelou quote about people will
(57:49):
not remember what you did or what you said.
They'll remember how they make you feel.
And Karen's that kind of person that makes you feel just joyful
about life, a real delight. I think my second lesson was
just talking with her about whatdoes it mean to be black and
aging in America? And you know, she's from
Trinidad, a culture that really respects and reveres its elders,
(58:12):
respects wisdom. She wrote a book about how to
keep your light as you age. And I just think that there's
this deep sense that when we talk about aging in America, we
tend to talk it from from the frame of Caucasians in America
because it's the dominant race and ethnicity.
And the reality is that different cultures in America
(58:37):
view aging differently, primarily because of the culture
that they came from. Africa, of course, very much
reveres its elders. So I think, you know, let's
let's keep in mind that when we're talking about aging, it's
not monolithic. And especially if you're in a SA
South Asian family and Indian family and you are, you're
(58:58):
living with three generations together.
You know, we don't just do age apartheid and throw throw the
old people out to nursing homes or retirement community.
So, so aging is not a monolithic, monolithic thing in
the United States. And then finally, I just got to
tell you, you know, hearing her talk about the seven new things,
the beginners thing she did for her new book in defence of
(59:21):
dabbling just reminded me of thefact that I've been learning how
to juggle lately. I've been learning how to do a
podcast. I've been learning what it's
like to have, you know, sons both in teen years and about to
be in teen years. The light of our life is when we
try something new and feel like a child again.
And, and she really brings that up and it's a big part of what
(59:44):
we try to do at MEA as well. Because when you actually feel a
little bit ageless while trying to do something that you know,
you're not very good at, not only are you maybe getting
better at something, but you're learning how to, to enjoy your
sense of humor about yourself. And you know, of all the kinds
of senses we have, we have 5 senses.
(01:00:05):
Some of them get worse over time.
Our vision, our hearing, maybe our taste buds, but our sense of
humor actually is meant to be there until our dying day.
So I hope you enjoyed the episode.
We'll see you next week. Thanks for listening to The
Midlife Chrysalis. This show is produced by Midlife
Media. If you enjoyed this episode,
help us spread the word by subscribing and leaving a review
(01:00:29):
on your favorite platform.
I would say that my chrysalis really started early 30s when I
moved to London. Like that to me felt like really
transformational. Your experience at MEA talk
about that. I mean, what was it like?
It requires a lot of bravery, but it's in a space where you
feel completely cared for. We should be doing the things
(00:20):
that we love. We should be amateurs, one who
loves doing something, particularly as we age, right?
Because it keeps tapping you into all of those things as you
get older. Welcome to the Midlife Chrysalis
Podcast with Chip Conley, where we explore how midlife isn't a
crisis, but a chrysalis, a time of profound transformation that
can lead to the most meaningful chapter of your life.
(00:45):
Welcome to the midlife chrysalisand my episode with Karen
Walrand, who is somebody I got to know the over the last couple
years and I just love her. She's an MEA faculty member.
She has a, a workshop coming up in November.
And part of the reason I, I, I really enjoy my conversation
with her is because she's somebody who is really open to
(01:06):
learning something new. Her new book, which is coming
out in Defense of Dabbling, endorsed by Brené Brown, who's a
close friend of Karen's, speaks to this idea that, hey, why are
we not learning new things our whole life?
One of my favorite questions to ask at any cocktail party is at
what in your life are you a beginner these days?
(01:27):
So we talked about that. We talked about her, her other
book, one of her other books, the Radiant Rebellion about
aging and and just how do we keep our light as we age?
I think you're going to enjoy this.
She's an inspiration to me and Ithink she will be for you as
well. Check it out.
I know your personal story. A lot of other people don't.
(01:49):
This is a great way for us to just know who you are.
So I so we don't write, read some boring bio about you.
Give us, give us your bio, but with your your humorous, joyous
fingerprints all over it all. Right, all.
I hope it won't be as boring as my written bio, but let's let's
go. So I am, I'm Karen and I was
(02:13):
born on a very small island in the Caribbean called Trinidad.
If you think of the archipelago of the Caribbean islands, it's
the very last one next to Venezuela.
So I was born there of Trinidadian parents of
Trinidadian grandparents, sort of grew up there and the United
States. At the same time.
My dad was in the oil industry. Oil is really big in the
(02:35):
Caribbean. And so we moved back and forth a
lot. So I would say that my formative
years were Trinidad. I consider myself Trinity to the
bone, as we say in Trinidad, butI spent a lot of my childhood in
America as well, and my last time we moved back and forth
probably every two years or so. The last time we moved was my
(02:58):
senior year in high school, although I had already graduated
high school in Trinidad at 15. But I was young and so colleges
didn't want me and it was reallyhard to get me into high school
because I already had a diploma.But we managed to get me into a
high school where instead of thelanguages that I had focused on
in high school in Trinidad, Spanish and French, my engineer
(03:21):
father suggested that I focus more on sciences.
So I did physics and chemistry and calculus and all the things
for my last last year of high school and then ended up going
to engineering school for, for college at Texas A&M University.
And so I got a civil engineeringdegree purely to please my dad,
(03:44):
actually to really please him. I would have gotten a petroleum
engineering degree, but I didn't.
I I was a rebel so I got AI, gota solo engineering degree.
I graduated in 88, got married to my first husband, which plays
into Chrysalis's later on. But I got married to my first
(04:04):
husband. Realized within a year I did not
want to be an engineer. So I thought, well maybe I'll go
back to school. Definitely not a graduate degree
in engineering because this is not it.
So either law or MBA, and every engineer I knew was getting an
MBA and LA Law was on the air atthe time and they were all these
(04:25):
lovely, sexy, hot lawyers. And I thought, that's what I
want to be. That is not, by the way, a good
reason to go to law school. But that is where I went to law
school. That's why I went to law school.
So I ended up going to law school at the University of
Houston part time. I was working full time and then
going to school until my last year of law school and then I
went full time, got the law degree, got divorced.
My divorce was my first case andthen.
(04:49):
Wait, you're you're you were thedivorce attorney for your
divorce? And that's exactly right.
It's. Oh my gosh.
Yes, it's cheaper that way. I knew it was a very amicable,
thank goodness, amicable divorce.
And we had no kids. And so it was an easy, it was a
very, very easy divorce. So I was a single lawyer, single
(05:10):
finally. I was probably what, 27 by that
point and I was single and really kind of living on my own
for the first time because I gotmarried back out of college and
just loving it was having a really, really great time.
Had the opportunity to move to England for for my work when I
was about 31 or so and so moved to London and met my second
(05:35):
husband while I was there and soI we got married.
We met, he asked me to marry him18 days after my first date and
I said. Yes, wow.
That's bananas. That's also something else you
shouldn't do, but I did. We got married and, you know,
lived. We actually just as I was, we
were about to get married, I gota promotion to be the general
counsel of my company and they were like, you got to get back
(05:57):
to the States. So we literally married and came
back to the states a year and a half after that.
We adopted our daughter Alexis. And exactly a year after that,
my husband who worked at the same company I did, got an
opportunity to work in Trinidad,back work back home.
(06:19):
So I quit my job and went back home with our daughter, with our
one year old. That's really when I started
writing a lot. I was really, I was doing a lot
of of writing then and we were there for a couple of years,
came back to the States, I worked, I came back and was at,
was a lawyer, got another job asa lawyer for a couple of years
(06:41):
maybe. And then was like, yeah, I
really want to be a writer. And how old were you at that
point? By then I would have been, guess
what, 3536 right in. There the the dawning of
midlife. The dawning of midlife.
Exactly. So so that's so since then.
I mean, I'm, I'm sort of speeding up now.
We have lived in in the States the entire time.
(07:05):
Our daughter is now in her aboutto enter her last year of
college. We actually a year ago just
bought a little tiny flat in England.
So we're now splitting our time between England and the States,
looking to a future of probably full time in England again,
looking to have a daughter launched hopefully in the next
couple of years. And and I'm writing books and
(07:28):
I've written lots of books. I wrote the book The Radiant
Rebellion, which is how you guysyou know me.
The radiant I have I have right in front of me, right for those
on video, you can see that I literally this is The funny
thing about this Karen, I just finished.
So this is, you know, like a journal and for me, it's my To
Do List and things like that. I literally just finished it
(07:48):
this morning. It's now it's now.
So now I now I have to, I have the new one which I just started
this morning writing and and so the timing of this is perfect.
That's really funny. Radiant Rebellion and you, you
did an MEA workshop on that. You're doing an MEA workshop on
that this fall. I The Light Maker's Manifesto.
Correct. Yeah, that's about joyful
activism. So that one came sort of first.
(08:11):
I wrote a book many years ago before that, but the Light
Maker's Manifesto is about aboutjoyful activism.
Radiant Rebellion is about joyful aging and also resisting
ageism. So it's sort of like an
evolution of that. And then I have a new book
coming out this year which is called In Defense of Dabbling
the brilliance of being a total amateur.
And it's all about creating a self transcendent life.
(08:34):
We're coming back to that one because we're we'll, we'll spend
some good time on that. But let, let's spend a few
minutes on your midlife chrysalis, which it sounds like
might have happened in very early midlife.
Did you, do you feel like the time when you had a big
transition was around mid 30s because of your career or was
there another transition, major transition that went on, you
(08:56):
know, in your 40s or even early 50s?
I would say that my chrysalis really started early 30s when I
moved to London. Like that to me felt like really
transformational. It felt, you know, I'm, I'm the
eldest of 2 girls, elder of 2 girls, an immigrant and a people
(09:17):
pleaser, right? Like I was like, I'm going to
make my dad. And my dad grew up extremely
poor. He sort of scholarship his way
into a PhD in petroleum engineering.
And so the idea that we did not that we like, there was no way
we weren't going to college. There was no like we had to
excel. I always felt like I, I was
doing whatever dad pretty much and mom, but pretty much dad
(09:40):
suggested I do, strongly suggested I do.
And so when I turned 31, first of all, I got divorced.
My parents are still married, right?
So that was already like, whoa, what is she doing?
So I just, I'd pretty recently gotten divorced in the last
three or four years and I was leaving the country on my own.
Well, plus you had also stepped away from engineering.
Let's be honest about that, too.Well, no, when I went to London,
(10:02):
I was still, I would, yeah, I stepped away from engineering,
but it was OK because I went to law school, right.
So. So even though I had stepped to
engineering, it was like it was still considered an evolution
because it was law school. It wasn't like I left to become
a rock star or something like that, right?
So, so I was going to law and I was still a lawyer in the oil
industry, which my dad was in. So it wasn't really that big of
(10:22):
a shift. You're such a fucking rebel.
Look at you. Exactly.
Right. So moving to London really felt
like, I mean, that's certainly not rebellion, but it felt like
it was the first time that I wasreally coming out from behind my
my under the wing of my parents,right.
So, so that was probably the biggest thing, you know, and,
(10:43):
and, and London, let me be real,like, I love London.
London is one of my favorite cities in the world.
But it was, it's a hard place tomove to, right?
Like, like it's not. I always say that, you know,
Americans, you're a friend untilyou prove otherwise.
But Brits are the opposite, right?
You're not a friend until you prove your friend, right?
So whereas Americans will be like, yeah, hi, welcome.
(11:04):
We'll go have dinner and then maybe they'll drift apart,
right? And England, they're sussing you
out for a while before before they decide you're, and then
they're your friend for life, right?
Once you're a friend, they're your friend.
But it was a really surprisinglydifficult navigation because I
assumed, well, you know, I grew up in an English school system
in Trinidad and I speak the language.
(11:25):
And so this will be very easy. And of course, that was an
extremely naive way to approach it.
So that I think was the start ofit was that.
And then of course, meeting my husband and then becoming a
mother and all that. Like all of that was happening
in my 30s, right? So let's talk about the we'll,
we'll focus on the US for right now.
What do we get wrong about both midlife and aging?
(11:47):
You know, the, the radiant rebellion is, is really about
seeing the light that can come with age.
And yet the way we tend to look at this as a culture is there's
a dimming. It's like there, you know,
you're a big, you're, you're a bright light bulb at age 25.
(12:08):
And then it just starts to dim. And it's just this, it's like
the dimmer just gets worse and worse until you die.
And I don't think that's your point of view.
In fact, what it's what does it say?
Keep making light? Yeah.
Behind me. Yeah, keep making.
Light. Yeah, your neon on the back wall
there. Keep making light.
So tell us about your point of view on aging and midlife.
Because I've moved back and forth between the Caribbean,
(12:31):
between Trinidad and America, I think I and I think both
countries treat aging very differently.
And in a lot of ways, I think I have a very Trinidadian outlook.
You know, my closest models for aging are my parents.
And so I sort of have them as kind of role models and my
(12:52):
parents it well in Trinidad, let's just say Trinidad is much
and I'm speaking in gross generalities right here, right?
Like obviously there's going to be exceptions to every horrible
generality and stereotype that I'm about to enter into, but
there's certainly capitalism in Trinidad, don't get me wrong.
But there is a sort of, there isn't the sort of
(13:15):
competitiveness about how much you're going to make.
Let's just start with that, right?
How much you can make and what and he who dies with the last
you know what most wins kind of thing that I feel like there is
more in America and to a certainextent in England, right, but to
a certain extent. And so I think first of all,
that's part of it. And as we get into midlife in
America and we start to look at things like retirement, right
(13:37):
like that, there's a sudden there's this idea of you're
slowing down, you're not contributing as much right,
which I don't feel is as huge ofan issue in the Caribbean.
So we'll start with that. The second thing is beauty for
women, right? I feel like the, the concept of
beauty in Trinidad versus America is very different.
(14:00):
And I think a lot of, honestly, I blame a lot of it on Carnival
in Trinidad, right 'cause we have a very big Carnival like.
I love it right now, yeah. And.
So we and so there's this sort of like every year there are
women of all shapes and sizes and men of all shapes and sizes
in very skimpy costumes and you know, and we're all just sort of
rebelling in each other in the sun and the music and everything
else like that. And so there's this really kind
(14:21):
of freedom in in like beauty andwhat beauty looks like.
And then there is in the USI feel like in the US, there's
this sort of like their marketing to you that you should
start intervening on the aging process at a very it's a
shocking young age. It's like at 24 years old here,
which doesn't happen in the US. So there's so I think culturally
(14:42):
there's a lot of differences in that.
And I think here because of that, and literally, as I've
talked in the book, it that's sort of baked into society.
Like we Americans did not hate aging at the beginning of the
20th century, right? As a matter of fact, aging was
sort of revered. And until, you know, the World
War's in the Great Depression, when a lot of 30 year olds were
(15:04):
sort of out of jobs, Then the the government said we're going
to have to have a mandatory retirement age so these young
men can take care of their parents.
And all of a sudden aging becamea problem that needed to be
solved, right? And it was literally sort of
baked into the culture that hereaging is a problem that needs to
be fixed. That's sort of the way that it's
thought of here. And that's where we get it
(15:26):
wrong. Because once we've been sort of
steeped in this idea that if you're not contributing to like
the economy, you're useless. If you're not, if you don't look
20, you're useless, right? If when you start to get into
that, then aging becomes something that's very, that's
fearful, right? And I don't believe that to be
the case. And I've witnessed that it's not
(15:46):
the case that first of all, I mean, even living here in the
United States, like all of my friends who are around.
But yeah, I would say within 1010 years of my age, I'm, I
just turned 58. So let's say certainly between
48 and 68. These are people that are
writing books, becoming best sellers, starting doing Broadway
plays like creating retreats, right?
(16:08):
Like all of these things are happening at this age where
we're finally, we, we know ourselves better.
We're more confident in what we're able to do.
A lot of us have more of the money that that we would have
had than we weren't when we werein our 20 or something like
that. And we have this sort of power
that I think is overlooked because of this idea that oh,
(16:29):
no, no, no, no, no, you're getting older.
You're when in fact, we're actually coming into our power,
I would say, as we enter into midlife.
And that's a really strange. And that's really why I wrote
the book, because I could not reconcile this idea of, well,
we're supposed to be winding down life.
And as you have met, you know, when everybody around me was
really sort of revving up like it was really some really great
(16:52):
legacy building wonderful thingsthat were happening around me.
So is that, did you just sort ofdescribe what the Radiant
Rebellion is and and if if there's anything else you want
to add to your point of view of what is the Radiant Rebellion?
Yeah, so you know the Radiant Rebellion.
It's really funny because I, I wrote the book at a really sort
of pivotal, pivotal time in my life because I was my marriage
(17:15):
was turning 20, my daughter was turning 18 and about to leave
university and I was turning 55.Felt like everybody who heard
that these things were happeningto me were only happy about the
20 year marriage, right? Like everybody was like O55
double nickels. Are you OK with that?
Or, you know, oh, your daughter's leaving, you know,
empty nest. And I didn't understand it,
(17:35):
right? Because I was like, well, first
of all, like getting older is the goal, right?
And also having my kid leave andgo off to college a bit, that
was always the goal as well, right?
Like that. So I didn't really, really
understand it. So I embarked on the book
thinking, I'm going to go like interview people about all the
different aspects about aging that I'm certainly thinking
(17:56):
about, like spirituality and health and all the things and
take their advice and see what comes up and what I came up with
and what I think the rebellion is.
It's not about like ditching thehair dye or do like it.
I don't care what you do. Like what you know, if you dye
your hair, if you don't dye yourhair, if you.
But what I want people to do is really interrogate why they're
making the decisions they're doing this and how much of the
(18:18):
decisions you make in your life,whether or not it's how you
dress, what you wear, how you pray, the adventures you go on,
the things you try, the things you choose not to try, that you
understand that you making thosedecisions independent of what
society tells you it should be. So if you stop dying your hair,
like are you doing it or, or if you keep dying your hair, are
(18:38):
you doing it because society says you need to keep dying your
hair? Or are you doing it because of
some real things? You your job, you'll get fired
for your job, which I heard frompeople who were in media right
that were saying that if I stop or people who were who were
single were saying that people will swipe.
I don't I've never done a singlething but what swipe left or
right depending and reject and they and really lose out on or
(19:01):
just. Hopefully not swipe your.
Purse exactly right. But and and those are real and I
just want people to make sure that they're making these
decisions with full knowledge. And that's the rebellion, right?
Of full knowledge of why. There's a, a phrase we use at
MEA called success script. And, and, and in many ways, you
know, the, there's a, and successism.
(19:25):
The, the terms consumerism is I think 60 or 70 years old now.
And it, we all know what that means.
Consumerism is there's a, an overall definition in society.
You described it earlier with the US and the UK versus
Trinidad and you feel a little oppressed, oppressed by that
consumerism point of view. Similarly, successism is when
(19:49):
there is a success dynamic in a in a culture, often in your
community, most often in your family.
And your job is to actually be the actor speaking from that
success script that you inherited, which is something
that you and I have in common until we both said Nope, not not
(20:11):
for me. But I think one of the key
things about midlife crisis and now maybe the midlife chrysalis
is people waking up to the fact that at 40-50, maybe even 60,
you realize that you are an actor in someone else's play and
it's time for you to write your own screenplay.
(20:32):
And I think that to me is a big piece of, of, of what you've
been writing about. Yeah, for sure.
And you know, it's so funny. I was thinking, so my daughter's
21 and she's about to enter her last year of college.
And and I know you have kids as well.
And there's something really interesting about being in
(20:53):
midlife with kids who are about to enter adulthood, right?
Like fully really enter adulthood.
And I wonder often if that chrysalis is often prompted
because we're watching, you know, young people close to us
about to embark on this and that.
I mean, I think we're always reflective anyway in midlife.
(21:16):
But I think that probably intensifies it, right?
Because as you're thinking aboutwhat are the advice, what's the
advice you're going to give to this young person?
And, you know, my daughter's been home for the summer and
we've had a lot of conversationsaround, you know, like what's
potentially on the horizon for her And what, what, And it's so
interesting to me, like how muchof what I tell her is informed
(21:37):
by the fact that I lived this script for a long time and have
decided not to and wanted to be and wanted to be the the
parents. That is like, I want to give you
all the advice that I can give you, but I also want you to live
your own life, right? And I want you to do it smartly.
And I want you to do it like I want you to do it with some
forethought, But it doesn't haveto be some sort of thing that
(22:02):
you think I need you to be, right?
And so I was thinking like, I wonder if if this new
generation, this Gen. Z or even Gen. alpha will
approach midlife in a totally different way than maybe, you
know, you and I have because of the way that we grew up and
success ISM and what that you know what the 80s and and like
everything like the whole yuppiething and everything that was
(22:24):
happening when we were kids, right?
Yeah. I mean, I think EU curve of
happiness research, which has shown that generally speaking,
people's level of life satisfaction declines their
twenties, 30s and 40s and then bottoms out around 45 to 50.
What's showing up right now is that young people like your
daughter's age are much less happy than we were when we were
(22:49):
that age. So it is possible that the
euchre of happiness is just going to be a, an incline
constantly getting better such that, well, aging's a good thing
now because quite frankly, in your 20s, you know, life sucks
and 30s it's getting a little bit better and 40s maybe a
little bit better, But, but we'll see.
I, I want to ask you a, a, a cultural question because you
(23:10):
talked about Trinidad relative to the, to the US.
Do you think the experience of being black and aging is is
quite different than being maybethe dominant race in the US,
being white? Ray Jetson is a friend of mine
and he's going to be teaching itat MEA next year.
He has a he has a book called Aging While Black that's coming
(23:32):
out this summer. Oh, I can't wait to read that.
Yeah, no. So what do you think?
What's what is experience? Because I know frankly, one last
thought. There's a guy named Jonathan
Mildenhall. He was our chief marketing
officer at Airbnb. He's an MEA alum and when people
started calling me modern elder and then I said, you know,
Jonathan, I'm going to create this modern elder Academy.
(23:53):
And I mean, he like, he's a, he's like a big time marketing
person. Modern elder Chip, that is the
best. I think that's the best.
And he was he's, he's also a Brit.
He's a he's, he's so he's, he's African English.
So Long story short is he said, it's amazing.
And then when we started launching it out there, it's
like everybody's like elder. What a terrible word.
(24:16):
Nobody wants to be an elder. And, and, and then I went back
to Jonathan and I said, Jonathan, what is it?
And he says, well, culturally inthe black community, being an
elder is revered, appreciated, and you have multi generations
living together and, and, and therefore there's a sense that
you're connected to your elders.So tell us a little bit more
(24:38):
about your point of view as a black American and Trinidadian
and Brit and Brit and all. You know, you're a lot of
hyphens and a lot of lot of flashes there.
What's it like? So I don't write about this in
Radiant Rebellion, but it is something that I talked with
about as particularly with with the doctor that I interview who
(24:58):
is of Indian descent. And I asked her, like, do you
think that of the people who talk to you about aging in your
office, I make up that the ones who are really scared of it are
white. And she said, yeah, that's true.
More so more so let's I I don't want to say like, I mean, for
sure, like everybody worries about aging like that.
(25:19):
I don't want to do that. But I do think, and I also, I
also, I did, and this I actuallydid talk to about in the book
with a friend of mine who is Eritrean.
He was born in Eritrea. He grew up in Ethiopia.
And I think America's kind of both.
And like in international schools, and he said as well, he
(25:40):
goes, yeah, there's a difference.
Like there's a you when you walkdown the street and you see an
older person in in East Africa, in his case, like you
acknowledge them, right? It's not this idea of
invisibility that you hear so much about in the US, right?
Like you, you, you acknowledge the person that person is, is
sort of revered for their wisdom.
(26:01):
And that's very, very cultural In Trinidad.
I would say it's, it's somewhat similar for sure.
Like like one thing that I thinkthat we do here that I mean in
Trinidad that that I've not seenAmericans do, is any elder,
particularly your parents, your parents contemporaries are
called auntie and uncle, right? So it's always auntie so and so
(26:25):
and uncle so and so and auntie so and so and so.
There's a built in sort of reverence there because they're
given this honorific as a child.Even even if they're not blood.
Especially your mom's best friends, your like the only
people used to Mr. and misses are people like your teachers or
like somebody that you meet thathas no relationship to your
family other than a professionalone, right?
(26:46):
But everybody's and I raised my kid the same way.
Like a lot of my very good friends are Auntie Laura, even
though they're American. I'm like, Alex, this is Auntie
Laura. I the idea of my daughter
calling somebody older than her by their first name is bananas
to me. Like it is bananas.
And it's very and I, I have to say when I hear her friends call
(27:07):
me Karen, like there's a little part of me that's like, that
feels wrong, right? Like that feels that feels
wrong. I live in the South.
I live in Texas, so there's a lot of Miss Karen, Miss Karen,
can you do this? Miss Karen, can you do that?
That that actually feels better.But there's this sort of built
in kind of reverence for people who are older than you and you
get it as a child. And so I think that that's part
(27:29):
of the thing, right? That happens as you get older
that I would never ever, ever even me at my big ass 58 years,
like my parents friends will never be, but I would never call
them by their first name ever. They're either anti so and so or
Missus so and so that is it LikeI would just never do it.
And I think that that actually is sort of built in a kind of
(27:52):
reverence that you don't really see in America.
Like you really don't hear that.And especially I think now like
I don't think any of my daughter's friends, I've never
heard them calling me Missus Jennings or Missus Walrand or
Mr. Jennings. Like it just I you don't hear it
at all anymore. And I think that's, I don't
think it's a pity, but I do think it affects how people view
aging, right? You know when we, we've done 2
(28:15):
exclusively black modern elder workshops and you weren't part
of either one of them, but I happen to be a part of both.
And it was, I was the only whiteperson in the room.
And often I was not in the room.I, I was there for some of the
content. What was so interesting, Karen,
Miss Karen, although I'm older than you, so I don't know if I
call you Miss. Karen.
(28:35):
Yeah, you could call me Karen. You're.
OK, you know, we do this thing at the start of the workshop and
you, you, you've experienced it in the workshop that you and I
did together, which is if you really knew me and people then
say something from what we call the third vault.
The first vault be our, our, ourbrain, our, our facts.
The second vault being our stories from our heart, the
third vault being the essence ofwho we are, from our gut, from
(28:59):
our place of wisdom. The African American
facilitators, there are five of them actually, who helped lead
the workshop and said we're not doing, if you really knew me,
Chip, we're going to do if you really knew my name, my first
and last name, you would know. And then the person talks, each
person would talk about the origins of their last name,
(29:21):
which sometimes if you actually,if your family was, you know,
from the US, not obviously not originally, it might be a land,
you know, a absolutely. Same in the Caribbean.
Absolutely. Yeah, it, it might be a land
runner or a flavor. And then the and the first name.
And often for, for many African Americans, they have a very
unique first name. The process of having people
(29:43):
tell their stories and then say,I am bringing into the room
right now my, my great grandmother, who I met, you
know, for a short time of her life.
And she has had this impact on me and she continues to have it.
And she's here meet with me right now.
And so you do not hear white people talking that way very
often. But it was such a, it was such a
(30:05):
core part there. This lineage, this idea of
roots, this idea that I come from these people, is so much
more embedded in black culture in the United States.
By the way, the the people who have called me Miss Karen that
generally are black, right? Love my, my daughter's Fred,
like interestingly enough, but absolutely there's definitely
(30:27):
that. I mean, for sure my, my last
name is an enslaver's last name for sure.
Like we've traced it. What's interesting, my first
name, Karen, which now has been dragged through the mud in
recent years, but but was given to me specifically because my
mother, knowing that we would likely be and like we would
likely do a lot of work. Our family, like I would
(30:49):
probably end up being a professional in the US, decided
she wanted as ordinary a name aspossible because she was afraid
of that any other name would be considered would be racist,
right? Like people would would treat me
with a different thing. So that's for sure is true.
So I mean, yeah, I think it's and I and also I, I just want to
add that I have friends of mine who are of South Asian descent
who auntie and uncle is also very, very common right in
(31:11):
their, in their culture as well.So I think that there definitely
is some sort of, you know, sort of baked in rituals and things
like that that we don't even really think of.
It has having anything to do with aging, but certainly has to
do with revering the old with the olders and the elders in our
in our communities that I think you don't see as much in white
(31:34):
communities in America. I, I mean, I'm making that up
and somebody's bound to say that's not true.
We did that, you know, as well and listening to this, but
that's sort of my experience. So let's switch gears for a
second before we talk about yournew book.
Let's like let's dish about Brené Brown.
So you. Love to do that every time we
talk to each other. You always bring her up.
We're all, you know what, because I just find her so
(31:55):
fascinating that she came out ofnowhere, you know, did a Ted X
talk, not even a Ted talk, a TedX talk.
And it, and it just like blew, blew the doors off of societal's
perspective on vulnerability andon, you know, just authenticity
and talk for a moment about yourrelationship with her.
(32:16):
You both are in Houston. How did how did you guys work
together? Well, we we were friends way
before we worked together. We actually met.
Interestingly, you this would appeal to you because you're
you're a retreat person. We met because a woman who had
seen both of us write online, wewere both bloggers at the time.
(32:36):
Brene was a Blogger, invited a bunch of bloggers she admired to
a house in in in Oregon on the Oregon coast and said I think we
should all hang out and none of us really knew each other and
for some reason all of us said yes, which is very weird.
Brene and I were the only two from Houston who were invited.
And so we ended up meeting aheadof time and then we became
(32:58):
really, really good friends. And so this was before her Ted
Talk. This was, she was a professor at
University of Houston and that was primarily her work, right?
She had written a couple of books, couple of books.
I think she'd probably was just about to write The Gifts of
Imperfection, but she wrote another book before that called
(33:19):
I thought It Was Just Me, but I think those were the only two
that were were out at the time. And we just became really good
friends. And and I was at that Ted TEDx
talk because it was TEDx Houstonthat she did that.
And I remember she was the firstperson that morning to speak.
And after she spoke, she came and sat next to me and she was,
(33:40):
she was nervous and she was like, how did it go?
What did you think? And I, I literally said, I think
you just changed your life. And it, I mean, and then of
course, from then on she became the Brené Brown that everybody
knows. And then both, there have been
two instances where I have worked with her, where she, you
know, I worked with her for a few years, like in mids in mid
(34:02):
2000s. And then I most recently worked
with her until, I don't know, 2020, 2:00-ish or so.
And yeah, we've, we've just remained really good friends.
We don't see each other as oftenas we used to because she's now
the Brené Brown. But yeah, we've been friends now
for, gosh, I mean, that must have been 2012 or so.
(34:23):
So it's, it's been well over a decade, 1516 years now.
What have you learned from her? What what?
What would you say as observing a friend of yours?
What? What wisdom have you learned
from? Her, you know, I, I think the
easy answer is to say, oh, shame, vulnerability.
I don't think that's really the thing that I learned from her.
She's very, very thoughtful and very meticulous and very like
(34:49):
she considers all the angles of everything before she does any
any sort of word thing, before she makes a hire, the way she
runs meetings, the way that she she plans what her next books
are going to be the way that youlike.
She's very, very I, I want to use the word strategic, but I,
I, I the strategic without any sort of, without any of the, the
(35:12):
negativity about it. Yeah, like that, that it can
because it's not that. I mean, it's not calculated, you
know, it's not like being calculated, but it's sort of
like being really, really thoughtful about how, how am I
going to do this? How can I communicate that?
And then the other thing that I think is I don't she hasn't
taught it to me. I wish you would teach it to me,
but is she is just magical with language.
(35:35):
You, you have that you and I have talked about that like you,
this sort of turn of a phrase and being able to take, to take
concepts and make them very digestible and understand by, by
lots of people, I think is just a real gift of hers.
And it's certainly I, like I said, I don't think she's, she's
taught it to me, but it's certainly something that I try
(35:55):
to be aware of in my own writing, in my own speaking and
try to emulate that sort of thing.
I, I think it's natural for her.I think it's natural for you.
I for me, if, if it happens, it's because I, I've agonized
over the, you know, the turns ofphrase and stuff like that.
I think she's really, really, really great at that.
So let's talk in defense of dabbling in defense.
Of dabbling. Title is the brilliance of being
(36:17):
a total amateur You taught me something already and that is
that the word amateur the word amateur.
Who knew that the Latin root of amateur and you think ama like
ama. Oh well, it's sort of like
anything that circles that AM could be like maybe love but not
amateur is not about love. Although I could say that I'm
(36:38):
occasionally an amateur at love but.
Are we all? Tell us, tell us about the root
of the Word amateur and why you decided to write this book and
all of the fun you had in writing it.
And it's I'm hoping it's going to be a best seller.
Oh, I do too. Thank you.
And also, and the very last chapter is about my experience
(36:59):
at the MBA Academy in Santa Fe, like, which is very, very cool.
So, yeah, so I started writing this book or I started having
the idea to write this book whenI was still writing Radiant
Rebellion. And I was, I'm writing radio
rebellion and I'm talking sort of, you know, about aging and
aging joyfully. And, and the process of doing
that, I've like, I'm putting selfies of myself up like hula
(37:23):
hooping and just doing really silly things.
And everybody, every time I put up a picture of me hula hooping,
which let's be very clear, I am a full amateur at like I, I
can't do tricks or anything. Like I'm, but everybody would
say, oh, I wish I could do that.I would.
I'm, you're so brave to have done that, right?
I could never do that. And I'm like, well, first of
(37:44):
all, you don't know if you can'tdo it.
If you try and simply brave likeit's a hula hoop, like, like I'm
not getting paid for this, right?
Like what the worst thing that will happen literally is the
hoop will fall down like nothingbad is going to happen just
because I tried this. And so I was really sort of
intrigued by this sort of resistance to do anything or oh,
(38:05):
I, if I tried doing that, I would look like an idiot.
Like, OK. And so I really was like, why
are people not doing this? So I, I, I was interested in
this idea. And then so I, I, I talked to my
publisher and I was like, I really want to write this book
about like trying things and doing things just because you
love them without turning them into a side hustle, without
(38:27):
having to master them. And she's like, oh, that's
really interesting. Let me take it to our marketing
people and see what they think, right?
Because the book's got to sell. And when she came back to me,
she said something I thought that was really interesting.
She talked about a young woman in her marketing department, a
young black woman and who was inher 20s.
(38:48):
And she said, I love the idea ofthis book because I feel like as
a young black woman, I am constantly trying to excel so
much to be able to, like, make my parents please, to represent
my race, to make my ancestors pleased that I've forgotten how
to be interesting. And I thought that is the most
heartbreaking thing I've ever heard.
(39:09):
And so I, I really, I, I wrote the book and I came up with the
seven attributes of intentional and maturism, which is how do
you do something and make sure you're just doing it for the
love of doing something and not falling into perfectionism or
thinking about side hustles or anything else like that.
So I'm going to, how do you do it?
And I'm going to try something that represents each of these
things. So it included like pottery and
(39:32):
surfing, which was like about, you know, like playing with your
comfort zones edge and tapping into wonder in awe, which was
photographing the Milky Way, which I tried to do when I was
with you in, in Santa Fe. How'd that go?
Not great. It was cloudy.
I was so mad. I'm like, it's the desert, why
is it so? Cloudy, you're coming back.
You're you're coming back. So you can do it again.
(39:53):
Go go through these 7 attributes.
Let's go through the seven attributes and and and if you're
open to it, like tell us the thebeginner thing you did sure with
each of those. Two of them, yeah, actually,
that's the only way I can usually remember them all, is
what I did. So curiosity.
I've got them written here in case.
Awesome. So curiosity is one of them.
And the thing that I tried for that was pottery, which is
(40:17):
because I was just and, and curiosity is also not just
curiosity about I'm curious about what will happen as I do
this, but I'm also curious aboutmy own reactions when things
don't go well, right? Or when things do go well.
And what's that about? Right?
So curiosity was one, mindfulness was 1.
And I started a swimming practice, which was very weird
(40:38):
for me because I as a Caribbean person, I love the ocean.
I do not love pools, but I did it self compassion.
And what was really interesting was each one of those were
something else until I started writing it and I'm like, oh,
this is really about self compassion.
So self compassion was actually about detachment of ego.
That was what it was originally going to be.
(40:59):
But then I realized that really what it is, it's about doing
something that you can practice self compassion with.
And this one, I was also interested in doing something
that I used to be good at but hadn't done in a while.
And so I knew I was not going tobe that great at it again.
And it was piano. So I played piano for a long
time in my childhood. It had been decades and sort of
(41:20):
going back and knowing that I was going to be frustrated that
I couldn't do what I used to have done.
So, so that's self compassion. See, play I think was one of
them. Play was, was one.
That one was, I think I did filmmaking for that one.
I'm a photographer. I've been a photographer for a
long time. So I thought it'll be easy,
it'll be fun. I can do, I can play.
(41:41):
It's a camera. I know cameras.
It was excruciatingly hard, but I love it.
So that was film making videos, right?
Let's see what else was there. Zone stretching.
Zone stretching. Yeah, stretching your comfort
zone, that one and, and that wasreally interesting because it's
not about going outside of your comfort zone.
It's about really sort of doing something that makes it feel a
(42:02):
little uncomfortable. So I, I wasn't bungee jumping or
anything like that, but surfing was what I did for that one.
I'm a scuba diver. I love the ocean.
So I surfing. That was hysterical.
How many is that? Is that 5?
That's five, yeah. Next one is connection.
Connections, doing something with somebody else, because as
you know and somebody who studies aging, like connection
(42:23):
is one of the biggest things youcan do is really having strong
connections with someone. And so this was about doing
something with something somebody.
And so I did sailing with my husband.
I went sailing, which was really, really fun and then
wonder and all was the last one about tapping into wonder and
all. And that was photographing the
Milky Way, which I've never donebefore, even though I'm a
photographer and it I'm interested in continuing now.
(42:45):
I will tell you what was the thethings that so the learnings
from the book. I will say first of all, every
one of them, you're doing more than one thing, right.
Like if I'm, I'm like pottery stuck for me, like I am a
complete Potter. That's all I do now.
I go several times a week and it's yes, it's curiosity, but
it's also mindfulness and it's also self compassion when things
(43:06):
go wrong, right? Like there's a lot of things
like that. So everyone thing you usually
can exercise many of them. The other thing was that really
having a hobby which sounds so light and so especially in a
culture that values like production, right?
It seems so silly, but it's, I really came to understand that
(43:27):
it is a self transcendent way tolive, that the reason that we
should be doing the things that we love, we should be amateurs.
One who loves doing something isfor the same reason that people
tell you you should do yoga or you should do meditation.
Like for some of us, yoga and meditation doesn't feel natural,
but whittling does. And it still taps you into that
mindfulness and that curiosity and all the things that we
(43:50):
should be tapping into for our own spiritual growth.
And so it, I've become a real evangelist and I say now that,
you know, your job doesn't make you interesting, but your
hobbies do like, like, like, andthat we should all be doing
something that that helps us and, and really particularly as
we age, right? Because it keeps tapping you
into all of those things as you get older.
I'm so excited about this book because I think it's a really
(44:12):
important part of the ingredientof growing older.
You know, one of the things we talked about at MEA is the fixed
in the growth mindset and you know, the fixed mindset being
proving yourself and winning, the growth mindset being
improving yourself and learning.And one of the things that's
challenging for a lot of people as they get older is they only
(44:32):
want to play games that they canwin or they are nervous or about
how it will look if they're an idiot trying to surf or trying
to bake bread or whatever it is.And, you know, yet curiosity and
openness to new experiences are both positively correlated with
living a longer, healthier, happier life.
(44:53):
So how do we help introduce to people the idea that if you're
only playing games that you can win, your sandbox is getting
smaller and smaller, you're going to get more bored.
So there, it's so important. And it, you know, one of the
sort of surprise factors for people who come to MEA is that,
Oh, I'm gonna try things that I'm not used to.
I'm not used to being in a wisdom circle, speaking from my
(45:14):
third vault. And like without any kind of
filter, I'm not used to riding ahorse.
I'm not used. To surfing up to seats.
I mean, you know, petroglyphs. Yeah, I'm not used to walking up
a full hill at 6500 feet and looking at petroglyphs at 7:00
in the morning. I'm not used to in what we're
(45:36):
doing now occasionally in Santa Fe's carrier, like, Oh my God, I
I know, I know. I'm not used to baking bread
with another group of people. I'm not used to.
There's so many I'm not used to and that's fine.
You know what? You were never used to anything
in life when you were born. You were not used to walking.
(45:56):
And if you were that self critical child baby who was so
worried about what everything everybody else was saying about
you and pointing at you when you're trying to go from
crawling to walking, you would still be crawling.
So the. Truth is that when we're young,
we are introduced to the idea that we're going to do a lot of
firsts. We're going to try this thing
and that thing and there's even data that shows that when we're
(46:19):
doing a lot of firsts, we prolong life.
We have a tendency what what actually makes life speed up and
feel like, wow, it's just going by is when you're bored and
you're not trying new things, trying new things like the
Endless summer. The idea of the endless summer,
which we sort of think back to maybe being a kid was the the
(46:40):
idea of trying things like new things over and over again.
And that prolongs our perspective on time.
This is so valuable. Additionally, getting into a
state of flow, which is something that you probably do
with pottery now because you actually have built some talent
around it. I haven't, but yes.
OK, well, but. You I built some skill, but very
(47:02):
little talent. OK.
OK. So, but at least you get when
you're in a state of flow you have you would have a tendency
to lose track of time. Absolutely.
Do you think that you lose trackof time when you're a?
100 percent, 100% so. Losing track of time.
There's some new data that showsthat actually, when people are
in flow and losing track of time, there's some evidence that
shows that their time clock slows down to almost 0.
(47:24):
So it's like like when you're ina timeless state, weirdly you
actually are not. A timeless stake?
That's right. And so this book's really
important and I think the premise that in midlife we are
open, especially if we have sometime and space back in our life.
You know, one of the challenges with our thirties, 40s, and if
we're raising kids, if we're doing sandwich generation,
(47:45):
taking care of parents, is there's not a lot of time.
But as we get into our 50s and maybe even more so our 60s, we
get to a place where we have some time, time affluence, which
gives us space to try something new.
And one of my favorite questions, which you've heard me
say before and some of our podcast listeners, is 10 years
from now, what will you regret if you don't learn it or do it
(48:06):
now? I think it's just such an
important question because anticipated regret is a form of
wisdom. Well, you know, and I talk about
all those things. I talk about regret, I talk
about flow, I talk all about things.
Those things in the book, I willtell you the thing that was and,
and I probably, I don't know if I said this, I hope I did, but
the thing that has surprised me,first of all, let me be totally
(48:27):
frank. I probably would not have tried
all those things if I wasn't writing a book, right?
Like, like chances are like the the reason, like even the even
the, the, the surfing thing, which I loved like we got there,
we were in Mexico and I was like, I'm going to surf, I'm
going to surf. And then the day came and I was
like, I could just stay at the, you know, I just could stay on
the beach, right? I, I could do this, but I was
(48:47):
like, I'm writing this book. I've got to surf.
So there's a lot of that. Like, like the, the, the I had
an impetus. I had AI had a reason to, to try
all these things. But what was so lovely about
having the experience of trying all these things was discovering
what I was capable of. Like that was really cool.
Like who knew I could stand up on a surfboard at 57?
(49:11):
You're like, what? Like that is that is bananas.
And I did right. Or who knew that like pottery.
I, I, I just said I, I am not a talented Potter, but I'm getting
to be a skilled Potter, right? Like it's, I don't have a
natural talent at it, but I'm getting pretty good at it.
And like, and that's really interesting because I was an
engineer lawyer, like who would have known engineer who's
(49:33):
squeamish about being dirty? And here I am like elbow deep
and clay, creating something very artistic and that and just
being able to discover these whole new different sides of
myself that I had discounted because of the stories I'd
made-up based on previous experience.
I'm like, why not create new experience to expand that story,
right? Like that?
(49:54):
That's the beauty of it. And to expand the identity, to
let go of the identity of being the lawyer or that, you know,
the engineer and to say like, well, at this very moment, I'm a
Potter. So in your, in your workshop
this fall and early November, you will be both taking this
idea of aging and, and this finding your light and, and
(50:17):
having a rebellious spirit of just plotting your own, curating
your own life. But you're going to combine that
with some of this idea of like, what does it mean to be an
amateur? And how does how do you create
and curate a a really wonderful life and age beautifully because
of the adventures that you create for yourself in pottery
(50:37):
or whittling or hiking or surfing or whatever it it may be
for sure. Your experience at MEA last fall
or last summer, talk about that.I mean, what was it like?
Well, I mean, first of all, let's just talk about the
facility and the food is bananaslike so amazing.
(50:58):
So, so that, like I, I, I would be remiss if I didn't mention
that what I think was really lovely, what was really lovely
about that experience and singular, I think about that
experience, not just for me, butI think for all the
participants, is it requires a lot of bravery, but it's in a
(51:19):
space where you feel completely cared for.
And what a, what a like, how rare is that, right?
Where you're required to be brave and yet still know that
ultimately you're pretty safe, right?
Like, like you're going to do some scary stuff, but then
you're going to eat some really great food and you're going to
hang out on a fire with a bunch of people, new friends and
(51:40):
you're going to share and you'remake new friends and you're
going to stay until like, like that's a really, we don't get
that. I mean, we got that maybe in
summer camp when we were kids, but we don't really get that as
full adults, right? It's a time when I think you,
you, it's rare to make space foryourself, to just think about
yourself. And it's hard to, even if you
(52:01):
could do that, it's hard to do that without knowing what to
think, right? And so the idea that you're
going to get all these prompts and you're going to get like
with me, as you know, I'm big onjournaling and everybody gets a
journal. And I encourage people to
journal and I encourage people to go to all these beautiful
parts of the facility and spend time with their journal and
their thoughts. And then we sort of unpack them.
And I think, I mean, let's be clear, we don't unpack what you
(52:23):
wrote, but we unpack maybe things that may have come up for
you in the process of writing. Like what you write is your is
what you write. And I think that that idea of
just sort of making space where you don't have to worry about
cooking meals because that's going to be done and it's going
to be really healthy. You don't have to worry about
like, oh, am I going to get any workout in today?
Trust you're going to get movement and you're going to get
(52:45):
fresh air and your body is goingto be careful.
And you're also doing this beautiful self excavation and
self discovery. It's just it's magical.
So it was really, really great and that, and I say that as
somebody who was not a participant, right?
Like I even got that and I was doing a lot of the leading of
the of the things as well. And I still was able to make
some time for myself to be able to do that, which was wonderful.
(53:05):
Yeah, beautiful. Well, it's happening again in
November and we're thrilled to have you back.
Last question for you is you've learned some things along the
way. You've built some wisdom based
upon life experience. If someone asked you to come up
with a bumper sticker, a wisdom bumper sticker, that's Karen
(53:26):
Warren's wisdom bumper sticker based upon her wisdom
fingerprints of the life she's lived, what might be that wisdom
bumper sticker? And is there an origin story for
it? Because, quite frankly, our
painful life lessons are the rawmaterial for our future wisdom.
So often that wisdom came from the school of Hard Knocks.
I have two, can I have two? Yeah, you can have two.
(53:47):
I want 2. All right.
So the first one, and I think it's one that I really try to
live, is that I think kindness is a power move.
And I think that, and I, I mean that sincerely.
I don't, I think people think ofkindness as weakness.
I think kindness is soft, but I actually think it is the secret
sauce to life. So that's one thing it is
related to the other one that I will tell you about and that
(54:08):
came up actually in the last week.
I told you I've been talking to my 21 year old.
So my my 21 year old is in at University of Colorado and she's
studying communications and, butshe's also a very gifted and
talented guitarist. And as she's coming close to the
end of her time at school and she's doing really well at
(54:28):
school and she's going to get her degree and she's going to
graduate like really with great grades and everything else,
she's also thinking maybe I wantto be a rock star.
Like and like, and, and it's nota, it's not a, it's not a pipe
dream thing. Like she's good.
And so I was talking to her about it and I said, you know, I
feel like there's three things that I've taught you and or two
(54:50):
things I've taught you. I have one more thing to teach
you and then I think I'm done. Like, I think you're going to do
this. All right.
The first thing when you were a kid is I wanted you to work
hard. And I told you that it wasn't
about getting great grades or being the best in your class,
but when people see you working hard, that means something.
When people see that you that that means something to them,
right? Like they, that means more than
(55:11):
being the best in the class or the most talented.
Then when you got a little older, I told you, be kind was
the big thing. And it was about not just being
kind to your friends, but being kind to your teachers and being
kind to the people all around you because people will
remember. And if you work hard and you're
kind, that opens everything. That opens the doors for
everything, right? Right.
So now I'm going to teach you the third thing.
And the third thing is be strategic.
(55:33):
And what I mean by that is like if you want to go be a rock
star, go be a rock star. I don't care.
But you've just gotten this education about communications
around communications. Like every experience you've had
gives you a little bit of knowledge and wisdom that in the
pursuit of whatever you want to do, don't just discard it.
Like there's things that you have learned every single step
(55:54):
of the way that will help you get make it to that next step.
And So what you need to do, maybe it's you get a
communications job in the music industry while you figure out
like how does the music industrywork while you're gigging at
night and doing all these? I think, but be strategic about
pursuing that other goal. So so I think the second, the
second bumper sticker would be work hard, be kind, be strategic
(56:17):
would probably be it. I think that's, and then I said
after that, I have nothing more to teach you like like if you do
all those three things, I don't think there's anything else to
left to teach you. Are you a wise one?
Oh, thank you. Likewise back at you, my friend.
Karen, it's a it's a joy to be on this call with you or and to
just know that you are part of our guest faculty and and you
(56:39):
know somebody who I really admire.
So thank you for I'm excited to see the book, the books coming
out this on September. 23rd. 23rd OK.
And so I think this this episodeis going live right around then.
So it's perfect timing. Go out and buy the book.
Go out and sign up for Karen's workshop in early November in
(57:02):
Santa Fe and check her out. Thank you.
It's an honor to be with you allthe time, every time.
Isn't she fun? I hope you want to like hang out
with her because my gosh, she is.
She's a joy to be with. And I, I think some of the words
that really define her, I would say my first sense of, of, of
(57:26):
what I learned from that was joy, kindness, being smart.
She calls it strategic. I'll call it smarter, wise.
She's got character qualities. I think that, you know, when
ideally as we get older, our character qualities are even
more present. And that's so often what we call
wisdom. But I for for Karen, she's she
really reminds me of that Maya Angelou quote about people will
(57:49):
not remember what you did or what you said.
They'll remember how they make you feel.
And Karen's that kind of person that makes you feel just joyful
about life, a real delight. I think my second lesson was
just talking with her about whatdoes it mean to be black and
aging in America? And you know, she's from
Trinidad, a culture that really respects and reveres its elders,
(58:12):
respects wisdom. She wrote a book about how to
keep your light as you age. And I just think that there's
this deep sense that when we talk about aging in America, we
tend to talk it from from the frame of Caucasians in America
because it's the dominant race and ethnicity.
And the reality is that different cultures in America
(58:37):
view aging differently, primarily because of the culture
that they came from. Africa, of course, very much
reveres its elders. So I think, you know, let's
let's keep in mind that when we're talking about aging, it's
not monolithic. And especially if you're in a SA
South Asian family and Indian family and you are, you're
(58:58):
living with three generations together.
You know, we don't just do age apartheid and throw throw the
old people out to nursing homes or retirement community.
So, so aging is not a monolithic, monolithic thing in
the United States. And then finally, I just got to
tell you, you know, hearing her talk about the seven new things,
the beginners thing she did for her new book in defence of
(59:21):
dabbling just reminded me of thefact that I've been learning how
to juggle lately. I've been learning how to do a
podcast. I've been learning what it's
like to have, you know, sons both in teen years and about to
be in teen years. The light of our life is when we
try something new and feel like a child again.
And, and she really brings that up and it's a big part of what
(59:44):
we try to do at MEA as well. Because when you actually feel a
little bit ageless while trying to do something that you know,
you're not very good at, not only are you maybe getting
better at something, but you're learning how to, to enjoy your
sense of humor about yourself. And you know, of all the kinds
of senses we have, we have 5 senses.
(01:00:05):
Some of them get worse over time.
Our vision, our hearing, maybe our taste buds, but our sense of
humor actually is meant to be there until our dying day.
So I hope you enjoyed the episode.
We'll see you next week. Thanks for listening to The
Midlife Chrysalis. This show is produced by Midlife
Media. If you enjoyed this episode,
help us spread the word by subscribing and leaving a review
(01:00:29):
on your favorite platform.
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