Michael Clinton on Life Layering: How to Build a Richer Life After 50

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I met a woman who has raised 4 kids and she wanted to go back
to college and she wanted to geta college degree and she wanted
to start, you know, her own career.
And all her friends were like, well, why do you want to do
that? And she had to find the people
who are like, that's awesome, that's amazing.
And so rewiring using that word again, your friendship and that
might also include family is to build the support system that's

(00:22):
going to be the the lift for youto go to the places where you
want want to go. Welcome to the Midlife Chrysalis
Podcast with Chip Conley, where we explore how midlife isn't a
crisis, but a chrysalis, a time of profound transformation that
can lead to the most meaningful chapter of your life.

(00:44):
Welcome to the midlife chrysalis.
This is Chip Conley, and I'm going to introduce you today to
a brother from another mother, somebody who Michael Clinton,
who is sort of famous in the media world.
He was the president of Hearst Magazines for many years, helped
to start Oprah Magazine, maybe the most famous and successful

(01:08):
magazine launch in history. And then he actually in his
later life decided that he wanted to explore longevity and
wrote a book called Roar ROAR, which became a best seller.
So he's an he's an MEA faculty member.
I think you're going to enjoy this, this conversation we did

(01:30):
in person at the MEA campus herein Santa Fe.
Michael Clinton, you're here on campus because you're teaching
with me. It's.
Amazing. It's so great to be here and be
with you in this amazing New Mexican air.
I love being here. It's.
Great to see you you. You've had a home here for 18
years. 18 years, built a home here because I had a Santa Fe

(01:52):
moment when I was in my 20s and said my soul belongs here
somehow, someday, someway. Wow.
Let's go back there. Let's go back there.
What was going on? No.
I was living in New York, you know, starting my publishing
career and I came out to visit acouple of friends who had
relocated here. I'd worked with her.
She was a one of a journalist and he was a film editor and I

(02:12):
was out for a run. You'll love this very, it's very
Santa Fe story. I'm out for a run up near St.
John's College. And I look at the the hills
above me in the sky and I'm like, this place is just
amazing. I belong here.
So over the years I'd come here all the time, you know, we'd
come for Indian market or comfort trip to ski, whatever.

(02:32):
And built this house. And one day after the house was
built, I'm out running and I'm sort of running out towards St.
John's College. And I look up and there's my
house in the mountains where I had had the Santa Fe moment.
I was like, subconsciously I built a house where I had the
moment, but I didn't realize it.Very Santa Fe, right?

(02:55):
Yeah. Yeah.
So I mean so and that was how long?
Ago that was well I'm a proud 72year old so I call it you know
when I first came 404540. Five more than 45 years ago,
yeah. In the workshop that we're doing
together, we were talking about your father and how you grew up
in Pittsburgh and you know, very, very humble roots grew

(03:17):
into becoming president of Hearst Magazines and you know, a
bon vivant. So talk a little bit about your
dad because he passed away not long ago this.
Past summer. Yeah, and let's let's explore
our fathers for a moment and andthen let's go quickly to your
history and and in the publishing world.
Well, my dad was my amazing supporter, role model,

(03:40):
everything rolled into one. He was an amazing dad.
We, as you say, we came from very humble beginnings.
My dad was a laborer, my mother's a homemaker.
We were was raised in a working class neighborhood in Pittsburgh
I shared with you. Did you know Andy Warhol?
I guess I love. Him, certainly.
He's a little older than you, he.
Lived on the other side of town,but certainly he was one of the
celebrities that we knew growingup came from where we came from.

(04:02):
But you know, there were like 350 kids who went to my high
school and I think 10 of us wentto college.
I mean, it was a very steel workers, you know, it was a
steel town. And so, but my father, who was a
High School graduate, was, you know, every Friday night we had
a trip to the library and we would be able to take out five
books. And he took us to museums and to
art exhibits. And he just had a influence on

(04:26):
me. And there was a momentous moment
when I was 16, you know, I was surrounded by these big steel
worker kids and who became the football players.
I couldn't compete. I wasn't, you know, 300 lbs.
And so I was very frustrated. I ended up running track and
cross country is my sport. But my dad knew I loved words

(04:47):
and loved reading and that he taught me.
And one day he showed up with the typewriter as a birthday
present and said, I think maybe you should think about writing
and being a journalist and give me a typewriter, which was like,
a huge gift. And also set me on a course.
Yeah, set me on a course. And it was a validation from my
dad that my brain was what was going to get me.

(05:09):
It wasn't going to be my brown. It was going to be my brain that
was going to push me forward. So my father had the opposite
response. When I was 12, I said I wanted
to be a writer when I grew up. My dad made me feel like, OK,
that's not a very, very reputable career.
And, and I love my dad, deeply love my dad.
I've talked about my dad on thispodcast when I was interviewing
Scott Eastwood, his dad. Clint, it's it's beautiful that

(05:33):
your father saw in you a skill that was maybe an unusual skill,
you know, not, and especially anunusual skill in terms of the
upbringing that you had. Yeah.
But he really, deeply wanted youto find that calling.
And yeah, yeah, you know, my dadis the son of Irish immigrants
and, you know, the Irish, we Irish.
I have an Irish passport as a result of my grandparents being

(05:56):
born there. The Irish are very poetic for
sure, and they're very interested in ideas and
literature and, and, and all those things.
And my, even though my dad was aHigh School graduate, he still
had the curiosity of an intellect that I would, I would
say. And so I think he recognized
something in me that maybe he had, that he wasn't able to

(06:20):
really develop because he had his first child when he was 20.
So he didn't have a lot of flexibility, let's call it, and
they had six children. And so putting food on the table
was his priority. But I think his, if I think back
now, it's, you know, the Irishness because he would read
the Irish poets and read, you know, stories about Ireland.

(06:40):
So I, I think there was, you seewhere I'm going on that.
I think there was a bit of that in there.
Yeah, yeah. So you then went to New York to
to pursue a publishing career, ultimately led to becoming you
becoming the president of HearstMagazines and overseeing, in
fact, you helped launch O magazine, Oprah's magazine.

(07:02):
Talk about like the the glitter of yeah, yeah, the later years.
And then go backwards a little bit.
Let's go back to when you were in your 20s and starting to
build a career in publishing. Yeah, so I had AI, had a storied
career literally starting from the bottom and became the
president, publishing director of Hearst Magazines.
And I was the chairman of the Magazine Publishers of America.

(07:25):
And I was able to really live inso many ways, both the glory
days of magazine publishing before digital came along and
disrupted everything, and then the digital days which
transformed it. But during that period, our
team, we launched Oprah's magazine, which was the most
successful magazine launch in history, which was quite

(07:47):
phenomenal. And she was an amazing North
Star and Gayle King still works with our company, with
opradaily.com. We launched Food Network
magazine, we launched HGTV magazine, huge, huge successes
off of those franchises. We bought a Shet Publishing,
which was L&L Decor and other properties.

(08:08):
We bought Rodale, which was men's health and Women's Health.
So we we built this global because we were a global
company. The team, you know, we had a
great global team that really ran the business.
And it was, you know, there was once this line I read many, many
years ago. If you live the life of who you

(08:29):
want to become, you will become that person.
And I remember being a young, young publishing person saying I
want to dream big and I want to go to the top of my business.
And you know, I was fortunate. You know, it's a lot of luck and
timing and skill and opportunity.
It's an alchemy of things. It's not one thing.
But yeah, I got to the top. And ultimately, when we built

(08:51):
the Hearst Tower on 57th St. which was Norman Foster's first
big project in America, my office was on the 43rd floor
overseeing Central Park. And sometimes I would just stop
and look there and say, wow, this kid from Pittsburgh did OK.
Yeah. Did along the way did you have a
midlife chrysalis? Did you have a a moment in your

(09:14):
30s, forties, 50s where you wondered what what it was all
about? Yes, I was 39, OK.
And I was the publisher of GQ. Great job.
You got great clothes out of that, didn't you?
Did you get great? Clothes.
I was never really into clothes per SE, but I learned.
I learned, OK, I was 34 when I became the publisher of GQ.

(09:35):
I was the youngest publisher in the industry.
And, you know, it was very headybecause of all the trappings.
And there I was having dinner with Cary Grant, literally, and
meeting Michael Jordan and having dinner at Armani's house
and, you know, pretty flying to Concord.
Yeah. I mean, it was all pretty.
The 80s. Yeah.
Yeah. It was all pretty great.
And I was very ambitious, and I was, you know, wanted to be

(09:57):
successful. And so we were successful.
But when I was 39, I sort of hadthis, what you would call your
word, Chris, Chris Chrysalis. Chrysalis.
Thank you. Because I stepped back and I
realized that all I did was doing was working.
I had a great personal life, great family life, but all I was

(10:18):
doing was working. And I was the most boring person
I knew. And, you know, everyone looked
around and said, we have this glamorous job.
Yeah, it's work. You know, it's work.
And I had a a boss at the time, I was feeling very full of
myself once coming back from a trip to Europe, telling him of
all the things that I experienced.
And he said you just, I just want to remind you of something

(10:39):
said he you're, you sit in a rented seat and the seat you sit
in should not be the seat as to who you are.
And that was like a lightning bolt that hit me right in the
middle of my brain because so many people, so many of us
identify ourselves by a seat. We sit in a work seat in

(11:02):
particular. And if you work for company,
that is a rented seat. And so at 39, I said, I better
get a life and I better start dimensionalizing who I am
because, you know, the publishing world is treacherous
now. You can walk in tomorrow and get
fired. I mean, you know, So you know,
there was a very treacherous terrain, sort of, you know,

(11:25):
highly competitive. There were probably 5 people who
wanted my job who in the companyin the company.
Right. More than that.
Yeah, you know, and then outsidethe company, so, you know, it
was a very highly competitive, highly pressured job.
And so you you're as good as your numbers and as your
performance as any business is. And I had to sit back and say,
you know, here I'm at 39, about to be 40, what do I do?

(11:48):
And I had this this thing in me that I always had this sense of
adventure. So I decided for my 40th
birthday to get a group of friends together to go climb
Mount Kilimanjaro. And I also said at the same
time, I'm going to really push the envelope and I'm going to go
take a race car driving class atSkip Barber in Connecticut, take

(12:09):
some clients so I can get expensed, right?
And take a flying lesson. I was always interested in
flying. My dad would always say, when
are you going to do that flying lesson?
You'll be talking about it forever.
So I took a flying lesson and I ultimately became a pilot,
private pilot, and ultimately climbed a lot of mountains.
I didn't really like the race car driving thing, but I decided

(12:30):
to build what I call a layer in my life around adventure travel
and I became an adventurer and Isaid my 40s are going to be my
adventure years. And I developed this whole
different identity that got me through what we would say is
that midlife moment. And so here I am, you know, 32
years later, I've I've taken over 30 adventure trips with a

(12:53):
group of friends or my adventuretravel group.
And yeah, it became an identifier.
So there are other layers that Ibuilt when I stepped out of my
day-to-day of my big fancy career.
You know, I didn't go off the Cliff like so many people do.
I had built so many. You had a multi dimensional.
I had built so many identities that, you know, if I was and I

(13:14):
and I was ready to say that was a phenomenal career of 40 years,
but that was then. Yeah.
How do we? So now I got to move forward.
If you're enjoying the conversations we've been having
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(13:36):
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meawisdom.com/midlife Book. So let's explore this.

(14:03):
So you actually retired. Well, you didn't retire.
Let's actually you hate that word.
Yeah, we'll get to that. We'll get to that.
So you shifted, you actually moved out of being a publishing
industry senior executive, a president.
And at 67, you decided, you actually went to Columbia to get

(14:24):
your masters in nonprofit management.
And you ultimately wrote a book called Roar, which we're going
to come back to. You then created a company and
now have a whole team called Roar, Roar forward in the B to B
space, which we'll talk about. You decided to run seven well
over the course of the last 15 years or so to run 7 marathons

(14:47):
on 7 continents. You know, Are you the most
interesting man in the world? Like, isn't that the Dos Equis
guy? You know when I was 66, Yeah.
And I knew that I was, you know,when you're done right, you, you

(15:08):
know, when you're done with anything, you know, when you're
done with you, you know, when you're done with the
relationship, you know, when you're done with the job, you
know, you don't. I was kind of ready and I went
to our CEO, who's a great guy and said, Steve, I'm ready to
build my transition plan out of the, the seat that I was in.
And I also was this highly, you know, challenging intellectual

(15:29):
role and everyday being inspiredby something different.
And so I said I needed to build a bridge to when I got out of
there, I had something that was really going to keep me busy.
So I did start. I had done AI, had studied
economics and political science and school.
I did an MBA years ago. But I was always interested in
the nonprofit philanthropy worldbecause I have a lot of

(15:49):
involvement in that world. I have my own foundation, other
things that we've started. And I said it'd be interesting.
So I, I'll take a course or two.Well, what happens in the course
or two that I was interested in,you had to apply for a masters
degree. So I'm like, well, you know,
okay, got my transcripts, got myletters of recommendation,
apply, got in and started this masters degree at 6667 and 12

(16:16):
courses capstone project. And it was really humbling in a
way and inspiring in another way.
And but I knew that it was goingto invigorate me.
And lifelong learning is such animportant part of living longer,
you know, that I felt at 67 thatI had another 2530 years ahead
of me and I wanted to have a whole other kind of dimension to

(16:40):
my life. I didn't know what I where I am
today is not what I planned. I didn't it, it all kind of grew
organically. I wish I'd say I had this big
grand plan that, but the beauty of it is sometimes you don't
have a grand plan and it's things take you.
Places it's iterative and and you have to be faithful to the
calling. The idea?
Yeah, exactly right, Yeah. And, and so Roar came out of

(17:02):
this time and you had written books before, but you'd never
written a book like this book, which was about the second-half
of life and about how do you curate a life?
That's interesting. So can you actually give us the
acronym and explain a little bitmore about ROAR?
Sure, sure. So, so the concept of ROAR was
first developed with this idea that everyone kept saying, oh,

(17:26):
you're going to retire. And I kept saying no, well, I'm
going to retire from this job, but I'm not going to retire
retirement. And the word retire has so much
baggage attached to it because it is, you know, it's a, first
of all, as I always say, it's a false construct.
You know, it was created 100 years ago by the US government

(17:46):
and, and Social Security. Prior to that, there was no such
thing as retirement. You basically worked until you
died or you. And by the way, life
expectancies were only, you know, 60.
Yeah, pick a #62100 years ago. So we built.
And your father, listen, your father was a laborer.
I mean, he so for many people, the idea of retirement after a

(18:09):
lifetime of Labor or a lifetime of mind numbing administrative
work absolutely like no, send meto Sun City.
Please, my dad was very happy tobe that.
That's exactly right. And yet now today we are
knowledge workers. So many of us are knowledge
workers. The idea that at 60 or 62, we're
supposed to turn off our brain and and, you know, go to some

(18:31):
retirement community where we'rejust going to golf and drink
martinis at lunch, I mean, that just is not what most people.
Want I, I don't think it listen,it works for some people, right?
And, and kudos to them and they live in Florida and they live
and do 30 years of that and kudos to them, you know, but for
most people, especially educated, professional

(18:51):
managerial knowledge worker types, it doesn't work for them
anymore. And so I started agitating about
this because everyone would say you're going to retire.
And I and I hated that word. And I said, I know actually, I'm
going to rewire, which became myword and became the, the, the
sort of genesis of the book ROAR, which is how do you take

(19:13):
the second-half of a life or even at 65?
And roar is such a great word, right?
It's just an action word that everyone can relate to.
And the acronym was the first R was this whole idea of
reimagining, you know, if you are 65 and healthy and you're
going to live 30 years, how do you reimagine what that 30 years

(19:35):
can be like? And how do you break out of the
sort of social construct that was given to us?
And that's going back to school,launching a business, getting
remarried, you know, has so manydimensions to it as opposed to
the often times the self-imposedageism of well, I can't do that
now because I'm 65 or 70 or picka number.
So the reimagination process wassort of the building of it, the

(19:56):
O, which was own own your numbers.
You know, we live still in America, mostly in a very ageist
environment, you know, Asia, parts of Europe, completely
different. I mean, I always tell people go
to Singapore and see the celebration of.
They call them The Pioneers. Amazing.
The young, the the young people from the time that Singapore

(20:18):
became a country, state, city, state.
They love their pioneers exactlyright, who are now in their 70s.
Exactly right. And they're age innovators and
the whole country is structured from government to public
private partnerships to infrastructure to retraining
schooling, healthcare systems, all the above.
And there's not this built in ageism that we have here.

(20:41):
It's the US is evolving and changing.
We're seeing it play out with all these great.
I always use the the famous analogy of the The Golden Girls
in the TV show were in their 50s.
Look what they look like the Sexand the City girls.
We all know that, right? But look at, you know, the women
who are 70s and 80s to, I mean, look at, you know, Oprah Winfrey

(21:02):
or Gayle King or Jane Fonda or, you know, we could go.
Through her list Helen Mirren. Amazing.
Role models in terms of what thecelebrity of yesteryear were the
dowdy grandmothers who cultivated.
That is the publishing industry getting this, Yes.
Well, because, because in many ways, I, I, I'm going to point
the finger back at you. It's like, hey, the publishing

(21:24):
industry was one of the problems.
You're absolutely right. And the publishing industry and
the fashion industry and the beauty industry and the.
But yes, we, we as a company areeditors.
I'm so proud of how they have integrated age diversity into
their fashion spreads, into their feature stories onto
covers. You know, we have had people of

(21:46):
all ages on the covers, both both on the women's magazines
and the men's magazine. So and you know, you're seeing
it in television with, you know,the Golden Bachelor and Matlock
and you know, so many of the andhacks with Jean Smart, right?
And you're seeing it this, this.I'm so happy I don't have to go
to the fashion shows anymore. Yeah, it was a, you know, 3,

(22:08):
three. Well, you know, I would, I think
it might. My assistant said to me, you've
been to, to the European fashionshows over 100 times.
You know, I would go there to dobusiness with the CEOs or the.
So I wouldn't necessarily go to the shows.
I'd go to some, but I would go to do business and have business
meetings. But this past season it was one

(22:28):
of the most age diverse on the runway of any season.
It was really fantastic. So there's change in the air,
which is great in terms of the role modeling that that implies
that this is is a is a differentthing.
But the point was own your age, you know, be proud of it.
You know you and I, so just to. Be clear.

(22:49):
We're now at the O, So we have. We're now reimagining,
reimagining O on your age. And you?
You and I both know Becca Levy, Yep, who did the amazing
research that so much of your attitude about age gives you 7
1/2 more years of great life. You probably know Eleanor Mills
in the UK who create the Queen Agers movement.
I love Eleanor and she's very and we have to be pro age men

(23:12):
and. Women Ellen Langer her work at
Harvard, Harvard, when you know,take taking a bunch of I think
it was just men, older men, putting them in a, you know, a
New Hampshire, you know, big oldhome together and then helping
them just through little cues ofElvis Presley posters on the
wall and music and helping people to sort of see like, wow,

(23:32):
maybe I'm age fluid now. We wouldn't she wouldn't have
said that, but age fluid means that you're all the ages you've
ever been or will ever be. You're that's right.
We used to. I used to call it ageless, but I
don't like calling it ageless because then if something's a
good thing and it's less, it means that's a bad thing, and it
means age is a bad. Thing words.
Words are incredibly important, so.
Let's talk about the words and we'll get back to the A and the

(23:53):
R in a moment. But you know, the, the so we, we
built a vocabulary in our business and we work with a lot
of CMOS and marketing companies and advertising groups and so
forth. And you know, words are so
important in terms of triggeringthings.
So you know, when we talk about,you know, age appropriate, it's
really should be person appropriate, right?

(24:13):
It should be flatlined, right. I hate 60 is the new 40.
I do too. 60 is the new 60. I hate younger next year.
Sorry, I know it's title of a book, but don't be younger next
year. Own it, be proud of it.
So language, you know, we don't talk about midlife crisis, we
talk about midlife awakening. You know, we don't say retire,
we say rewire. So, you know, we have a litany

(24:36):
of vocabulary and also what happens with that is the imagery
that goes with it, right? And so we at go forward, we
identify 12AD campaigns a year that celebrate and recognize the
new attitude and the new approach to marketing to people

(24:57):
over 50. And you, you know this better
than I do. You know, the population right
now is 35 plus is 35%, is 50 plus.
The first millennials turned 50 in four years, the enormous
amount of income and money. And marketers tend to stop
targeting people at 54. That's the 20th century media
construct, which is crazy, right?

(25:19):
So how do you blow that up? And then how do you start
creating advertising and commercials and print
advertising that are age diverse, that that represent
people of of later ages in contemporary, modern ways?
So we can go on our website, roarforward.com and see the 12
campaigns that we identified forlast year.
We have a new set this year. But that's the kind of thinking

(25:42):
that we all need to create this Owning your age mentality.
OK, so now we're moving on. To a so a is the action plan
right? So we, we trademarked a program
called Life Layering and it really came from that story I
told you of being that 39 year world that in the first half of
your life you've built, we like to say the three PS you have 3

(26:03):
personas that you're totally wrapped up in your profession
and your work because you're working presumably your partner
because most people in their younger years, you're partnering
up in one way shape or form. And if you choose to be a
parent, you're a parent. And so those three PS suckle
suck all the air out of the room.
Yeah, there's not much space foranything else and.
There's not much space and So what happens is people get to

(26:26):
mid career, midlife, pick a #4750 ish and all of a sudden
they step back and say Oh my God, the kids are about to leave
if they had kids at a younger age.
My company's been bought, sold, reorganization, downsizing.
What's in it for me in the future?
And if you've been married, you might say, is this the right

(26:47):
person for me? Yeah.
You know, listen. Emptiness can be a very painful
time for a lot of people becauselike, who are you?
Who are you and who am I? Right.
So we built this thing called life layering in terms of how do
you build the personas of your future?
So the muscles, the muscles thatgive you other identities and

(27:09):
it's not meant to be a one off, it's meant to be a layer cake of
identities. And you might choose one thing
and then you start going down that path and then you build
another layer. And so the message is by the
time you know, you're at 65 ish,because if you work for a
company, there will be an end date to that profession.

(27:30):
I mean, it's just whether it's 65 or 70, it's being pushed out
further, it's going to happen. But then who are you and how do
you identify yourself? What kind of path are you
carving through midlife? Our free Midlife Pathfinder Quiz
helps you discover which of eight archetypes best describe

(27:51):
your approach to the stage of life, and what that means for
your next chapter. It only takes a few minutes, and
your results may surprise you. Find out your archetype now.
It's quick, it's fun, and it might help you see your journey
in a whole new light. Take the Pathfinder quiz at MEA
wisdom.com/quiz. It's like a portfolio of

(28:14):
purposes. Good, good way of putting it.
So another two other P words. So you've got, you know, what
happens for us off in our twenties, 30s and 40s is we have
these, these three elements. You've got, you've got the, the
profession, you've got the, the parenting along with the
partner. And that dominates your life.
And then we get into our 50s and60s and we move out of the time

(28:38):
scarcity or time poverty era into a little bit more time
affluence. And maybe it's not, as Richard
Lighter, one of our faculty members says, it's not the big P
or the big peas in your life. It's the small peas.
And we're not. Don't go there.
You people who are listening. I know this is an issue as we
get older is sometimes we have big peas and small peas.

(29:00):
But but the idea of a series of portfolio of purposes, you can
have multiple things. You can be a marathon runner in
your 70s. You can actually decide that you
want to go focus on photography.You know you have a lot of you
have some latitude to not be so 1 dimensional.
Yeah. And I think that the other thing

(29:20):
is you can do all of those at any age.
So I love the recent story in the Wall Street Journal about
the new age of entrepreneurialism, people in
their 70s, because launching a business in your 70s, you can
have a 20 year run in that business or whatever.
And so, yeah, I think it it that's a great way of framing
it. So life layering, which is the
action plan is building those layers and that muscle so that

(29:44):
you're not. And we all know the story.
The higher you are in the, in the, in the corporate world, the
harder it is post CEO life, because when you're ACEO or AC
suite executive and you're sitting in those lofty chairs
and all the things that go with it, you get weaned into a very,

(30:06):
you know, a state. You go from being a VIP to a
PIP, a previously important that's.
Right. That's right.
And so, you know, really being prepared for that, that time.
We all know the story of the guywho or the woman, but mostly men
who two years out they're dead because they just lost their way
and they atrophy mentally, physically.

(30:28):
Retirement has the data. Data's conclusive retirement
actually accelerates your mortality rate, right?
Right. So that's why we like the
rewiring process. Always rewire, always reimagine.
It should be an it should be a never ending process.
And when I wrote Roar and we'll get to the last, RI ended up
interviewing 40 people that we end up calling them the

(30:51):
reimagineers, the people who arewalking the walk and talking the
talk. And I was so inspired by their
stories because they'd done and I wasn't that interested in
people who were bankers who became banking consultants,
which is fine. I was interested in the woman
who at 56 decided to go to veterinary school.

(31:13):
And I went to her graduation when she was 60 at vet school.
And she said, I'll be a vet for 20 years.
You know, or, or the guy who wasACEO of a hospitality group who
decided that he was going to become an organic farmer and
built out organic farms and thenbuilt about programs for
companies to bring their employees to learn about, you

(31:34):
know, good food and healthy food.
And so people who really did a whole reinvention.
That's what that's what inspiredme because I think people and a
lot of times people say, well, Idon't know what I want to do.
I'm, I'm stuck, I'm lost, I don't know what to do.
And so we have a tool kit for life.
Layering is ways that you can find your path and.

(31:56):
How would somebody find that you'd find it?
In some of it's in the book, some of it you know, we we do
you mentioned we're AB to B company.
We do lots of webinars and programs with companies so.
They're they can find this at Roar Forward.
Dot forward.com yeah. And so it's been really
inspiring to watch it, watch people respond to it.

(32:16):
Yeah. And.
People came to this workshop, yes, which is what we're doing.
We're exactly, this is exactly what we're doing here at the MA
campus in Santa Fe. So let's go to the R, the final
R. So the final R is about
relationships because you know, the, the midlife moment, we've
accumulated a lot of relationships, many of them
good, many of them not so good. And I always use the analogy of

(32:39):
that college friend who you met and you've been friends with,
who's the most toxic person in your life for one reason or
another. In in our business, we have a
word called editing and we edit.You got to edit those people
out. You've got to find the people
who will support you in your, inyour endeavor.

(33:00):
I, I, I met AI, met a woman who has raised 4 kids and she wanted
to go back to college and start a college.
She never went to college. She wanted to get a college
degree and she wanted to start, you know, her own career.
And all her friends were like, well, why do you want to do
that? Why do you want to do that?
And she had to find the people who are like, that's awesome,

(33:20):
that's amazing. And so re rewiring, using that
word again, your friendship and and that might also include
family is to build the support system.
That's going to be the, the liftfor you to go to the places
where you want, want to go. And that's really important.
And we, we, we go through a variety of exercises on how do

(33:41):
you sort of assess that? One of them is, you know, this,
this great question, which is sober in question, but who are
the three people that you want around your deathbed?
And if you think about that. That's an amazing question.
It's an amazing question becauseit gets you to the core of who

(34:03):
are the most important three people in your life.
And then you may go to five and you may go to 7 of it.
Let's start with the three. And, you know, there were, there
were moments where a spouse said, well, I don't want my
spouse in my deathbed, which wasreally interesting to me.
But that's sort of the core group that you start with.
And it's important, you know, also when you're 50, you become

(34:26):
a different person, an accumulation of your life
experience, who are the new people you let in and the people
that you let in at 50 would maybe not be the same people you
let in at 25. My, my great story is when I was
looking for a new Doctor when I was in my, I really didn't have
a primary care physician per SE,which was a mistake.

(34:47):
But I went to get a colonoscopy when I was, you know, 45 or so,
because that's an important thing for everybody to do.
And I asked. It's a rite of passage.
Total rite of passage and you know all all was good knock on
wood but I said I so this was now a call out.
I was 50 ish and I asked the theDoctor Who I said I need a
primary care physician. So he introduced me to a guy.

(35:09):
I went in New York and I went tosee him to work.
I had my first, you know, full fitness exam or whatever it is
annual exam. And we started talking and I
found out he's a runner and I'm like, well, I'm a runner and but
anyway, let's us going to do a loop in Central Park.
Anyway, he's become one of my best friends.
He's run 87 marathons. He's a he's a maniac.

(35:31):
He did 50 marathons in 50 states.
I went with a group of us went to Anchorage for his 49th and
then to Maui for the 50th. He we've run many marathons
together and two years ago he and another friend and I did the
nine day hike to the Everest base camp and then ran the 10

(35:52):
sick Hillary Everest Marathon down.
So it's. You 26.2 miles.
Down, well, it's actually up anddown.
It is. It's a weird I, I many people
say, Oh my God, you walked, you ran up and then you came down.
When you go up to the base camp,you're actually going up and
down and sideways and around andup and down.
It's a very secure going up and the same thing coming down.

(36:14):
Oh, so you're actually running up hills as you're coming down?
Oh. At 20, Oh yeah, 1000 feet, yeah.
Oh yeah. It's not good to see so.
There I am, you know, and you spend the night at base camp,
which is the most miserable night of your life.
And I'm sharing like a pup tent with Keith, who's my doctor on
Thank God I'm with my doctor. How long ago was this?
This was your 70th. My 70th birthday.

(36:34):
It's a couple years ago. 70th birthday I I wrote a story for
Men's Health magazine on the experience for anybody who wants
to be to do it or exactly. You know, once again, I I say to
people, you don't have to do that, but you can, yeah, if
you're healthy. And so this.
Is the growth mindset, the growth mindset.
So we were talking about this inthe classroom yesterday and, and

(36:58):
the idea that you can improve and you can learn at any age and
that has been that's really partof who you are and, and that,
and does that ever tire you out or do you feel like maybe you've
got you're juggling too many balls at once or.
I think that, you know, that everyone asks me when I'm doing

(37:19):
keynotes and lectures and, you know, going around the country
and the world now, they'll say is, is this nature or nurture?
And I think it's a bit of both. I think that nature, I think
there are certain people. I was always this way even when
I was a kid. I was also always, to use the
word multitasking. We didn't have that word at the

(37:41):
time, but I was, I was always doing lots of different things
and I was always curious about the next thing and the next
thing and the next thing. So I think it was part of my
nature. But I think that a lot of the
nurturing that worked for me, you know, I always tell people I
came. I came from a place that had an
empty bucket, you know, and I wanted to fill the bucket
pocket. And, and so the motivation and
the ambition and drive that I had was the nurturing of my, my

(38:04):
reimagination process. You know, when I went to New
York at 22 with $60.00 in my pocket and no contacts and a
couch to sleep on for two weeks or so, two months actually, I
had to find my way. I had to reimagine myself.
I had to, I had to how do I start?
You know, so I think when you, that was, I was a bit of a, an

(38:25):
iconoclast because I didn't, youknow, a lot of people stay in
the safety of their family, hometown or their, the structure
of, you know, marrying their, their college sweetheart and
then they stay and they buy a house and they have it.
You know, when you go and you turn it upside down, you have to
be always thinking about how do I move forward?
So I think part of that's the nurturing process.

(38:46):
And in the four years since the book came out, since work came
out, if you had any new observations and insights, it's.
A great question. Yes, the observation is there is
a huge awakening that people arehaving in their lives at 50 that
they are going to possibly live another 40 years.
So this is your next book. This is, well, yes, there's a

(39:09):
new book coming out on May 5th. Thank you very much for all you
people who love pre ordering. It's a book.
This book, which is a little less personal development, is
really about the longevity phenomena.
I interviewed 80 people, doctors, technologists, higher
education, travel people who areI called the longevity

(39:33):
innovators who are building the industry and the coalescing of
those industries to create. The title of the book is
Longevity Nation, to create a longevity nation.
And that has both literal and metaphorical explanation to it.
And it's the the people, the ideas and the trends that are
driving the second-half of our lives and being able to live.

(39:57):
And Conley and MBA is in that book because I always view you
as a longevity innovator. And one of the the big voices
and what I tried to do is capture the people who are doing
the work. And I also do a great nod to the
Ogs of longevity, like our friend Laura Carstensen.
Who and we are on your Advisory Board together.

(40:17):
Exactly, the founder of the Stanford Center on Longevity and
she wrote the foreword, the bookand I had her read the book
because I needed her validation so.
So there are a lot of people like Laura who been on this path
long before it hit the zeitgeist.
That's right. And now it's in the zeitgeist.
So And what and. What do you think led to this,
this zeitgeist thing? I mean, because one of the

(40:40):
things that we talked about in the classroom yesterday is if
you look at sort of the, the newoverlords of longevity there,
it's usually men and it's a lot of them are between about 45 and
52 at the low, the low point of view curve of happiness.
And they're good people. I mean, Peter, Peter Attia,
Andrew Huberman, Dave Asprey, Tim Ferriss.

(41:02):
But it's an interesting thing that that they're all right
around age 50 and they tend to focus more on the biohacking
side of things. What is your observation on the
broader picture? Because that that's where a lot
of the presses come from for sure, as well as all of the
billionaires from the Google founders to Sam Altman, who are
all spending fortunes to actually look at innovation

(41:23):
around this. But it and then you hear Becca
Levy or Laura Carstensen or Dan Buettner from Blue Zones who's a
faculty member of ours and realize like, well, there's this
whole social science side. It's not just the physical
science side of longevity, but there's the social science has
proven for for decades or centuries that there's actually
things that have nothing to do with your biometrics.

(41:47):
Right, you're right that, you know, Peter without Lib and the
huge success of out Lib and Andrew Huberman and others have
put it put it on the the popularpopular culture map, let's say,
and their voices have been, you know, leading voices.
But and I've obviously mentionedand talked about them in the
book, but but what I was really interested in this book is who

(42:10):
are the voices that we're not hearing and who are the female
voices that we're not hearing? And there are a huge army of
people who are in so many different aspects of the
longevity sector that are doing amazing work, that are in social
science world, in the academic world, in the travel world, in

(42:33):
the creative world. And I was really interested in
getting way beneath the surface to find those people and bring
them to the the table, so to speak.
And you know, some of them, a lot of them are new voices that
are emerging that are, and a lotof them are are within
organizations. Jennifer Garrison, who you might

(42:55):
know, who is at the Buck Institute, you know, is an
amazing Doctor Who is working and doing amazing work in the
Buck Institute on, on longevity.You know, certainly everything
that is in Doctor Catherine Saunders, who is one of the top
voices in the GLP One phenomenon.
I mean, the GLP one phenomenon is revolutionary, as you know,
and it's only the beginning of what is going to be a massive

(43:17):
shift in in medicine. I was on the Stanford campus,
you know, I met this guy named Doctor Rajon Naj, who I was so
intimidated to go meet him because he's got like 6° from
MIT and Stanford and so forth. And he's working on a moon shot
project for a pill to slow down the aging process.

(43:39):
And there's some medications already, as you know, with the
metformin trials and so forth. But this is, you know, he's he's
doing deep work in an academic setting and he doesn't have this
big public profile. But that is a radical idea.
Yeah. Who knows where it will end up,
but I wanted to, I wanted in this book to raise the voices of
a lot of different people. I wanted to show that this is a

(44:03):
phenomenal global industry that is coming together.
And it's all a response and reaction to this idea that we're
all going to live to be 100. And when people say to me, well,
you know, I don't know if I wantto live to be 100.
I don't know if 100 is a good thing.
I say we'll go back to 1935 whenpeople were 6062 life

(44:24):
expectancy. If you said to them you're going
to live to be 80, we go, well, Idon't want to live to be 80.
Right, right. Well, living to be 100 is going
to be normalized. We may not experience it, but
the next generations will experience it.
And you know, the Stanford worksas that the five year old today
has a 50% chance to live to be 100 exactly.
So this is going to be a real phenomena.

(44:44):
Life expectancy in Asia with women is already 90 ish.
So this is this is medicine and AI in combination, and it
propelled us even further. It's here.
It is here and, and, and yet in the United States Longevity
Nation. 40 years ago, we were number one in the world for
longevity. Today we're 48th in the world.

(45:05):
Why has the US gotten it so wrong?
Well, we haven't addressed it for starters.
We haven't addressed it through all of our institutions.
We haven't addressed it in government.
We haven't addressed it in higher Ed.
We haven't addressed it in, you know, everyday the work world,
you know, we haven't addressed it at all.
I mean it's really the systemic challenges that we have.

(45:26):
We're going to be playing big catch up.
And if you go to the UK or you go to Scandinavia or Germany or
we talked about Asia, you, you really see what is in the works
on that front and. And is it what?
And what do you on that front? That means more plentiful

(45:46):
healthcare available. A part of it.
Less like death by despair, which is suicide, alcoholism,
drug addiction, what else? Yeah.
So, so in France there is something called the charter
that now 25 to 30 companies havesigned to rethink their employee

(46:08):
base, particularly their 50 plusemployee base and.
We think this the benefits they get.
Or no. Yes and no.
Yes and yes. But the yes is certainly on the
benefit side. Menopause services, you know,
caregiving services are all partof that life stage.
But more importantly, they have a commitment to their 50 plus

(46:29):
employee to extend their work life so that they can work
longer, earn longer, be healthier longer, have a a
longer runway before they check out at a certain age and then
live beyond that. So Loreal, who's one of our
clients, has a project called Loreal for All Generations in

(46:53):
which they're committed to retraining, upskilling, hiring
and promoting people over 50. Because the way the business
world was structured before is you started saying at 60, let's
start thinking about how we're going to move them out, right?
Because of all the reasons we know.
And so they're flipping, flipping it on its head and

(47:17):
saying how do we keep them working longer?
Now let's, let's talk about thatfor a second because, you know,
the couple years ago, Macron wasactually trying to increase the,
the age, the, the, the retirement age from 62 to 64.
And they're like people in the streets like, so it's
interesting that this is happening in France because the,
we in the United States, we think of France as like, oh,
those people take 8 weeks of vacation a year and they retire

(47:40):
at, at 42 or whatever. No.
But you know, what you're sayingis the the corporate world in
France is saying we know we havea demographic challenge, Sure,
because we are not, you know, having enough babies, correct,
to keep up with our population needs.
And we have immigration issues, so we're having a harder time to

(48:00):
bring new people into the country.
So we actually have to have people working longer.
Absolutely. And in the US, you know, 10,000
people a day turn 65. We're in peak 65 year, as you
know, people 65 plus in this country, which will go to 80
million by 2040 because of the longevity and lifespans.
And the challenge that companieshave is the pipeline of people

(48:25):
below the all these people are exiting their careers.
There aren't enough people. And by the way, some people say,
well, AI is going to solve that.I'm not so sure because of a lot
of the skills that are being lost.
And the other side of the equation is, you know, there's
a, there's a huge deficit need in with the trades and plumbers
and electricians and healthcare workers, healthcare workers, you

(48:47):
know. Caregivers Exactly.
So you have this crisis. And so companies, some companies
in the US L'Oreal being one and others have this.
CVS is another good example, have this approach.
Now that how do we keep people longer?
You know, one of the major banksthat we work with, one of the

(49:10):
presidents. Of the spank.
Said to me, our wealth strategists are our IP.
These are seasoned, experienced wealth strategists who help, you
know, individuals build their asset base.
If they walk out the door, we lose that that institutional
knowledge and that, you know, 30-40 years of experience.
I want that person to work into their 70s.

(49:32):
And by the way, that that's kindof job you can work into your
70s. I mean, you know, you can work
as a wealth strategist or a stockbroker forever if you want.
So, you know, that's part of I just met a guy.
I wrote about him in our newsletter.
We have a newsletter every month, as you know.
And I met this guy. I was asked to come and speak at
the Columbia's Columbia University's wealth Management

(49:55):
Master's program. And I met a guy named Dave
Harrison, who is a 787 Dreamliner captain for United
Airlines and he is forced to retire at 65.
And he is going strong. And, you know, there's been a
lot of push pull on raising the retirement age for commercial
pilots. And plus there aren't enough
commercial pilots. That's all other story.

(50:17):
It is what it is at the moment that that age will probably will
probably grow. But but he said, you know, I'm
65, and I'm completely motivatedand ambitious and driven, and
he's gone back to school to get a master's in wealth management.
And he said, I want to become a wealth manager for other pilots,
for people in my profession, andI want to do this for the rest

(50:37):
of my life. I'm like, bingo.
You're my, you're my guy. You're my guy.
Yeah, exactly. So I've two last questions.
Michael. So 1 is what you're seeing on
the horizon because you know, you, you're at a perch where
you're seeing more than almost anybody in the world in terms of
new products, new services, MEA being the world's first midlife

(51:00):
wisdom school. What gets you excited about what
you're seeing on the horizon in terms of the kinds of products
and services that are being created for this longevity
revolution? Great question and.
Obviously I'll write a lot, a lot of that coming out in the
book, but I'll pick two or threethings.
One was this, this phenomena of what I'm going to call longevity

(51:22):
clinics and longevity clinics which are emerging and some of
the companies are Fountain Life and Next Health and Chi
Longevity and they're emerging as I would say next generation
primary care physician facilities.
You go into the clinic and thereare doctors and nurses and

(51:44):
you're getting all sorts of tests, biomarker tests.
You know, a lot of it is a wholemenu of things that you can get.
And I wrote, I wrote a story forMen's Health on this.
And a lot of doctors, Connor, you know, raise their eyes
around it. But it's serving a community of

(52:04):
people who A, don't have a primary care physician.
B can't get a primary care physician, C can't get an
appointment with the primary care physician, and D only get
15 minutes with the primary carephysician when they can.
And when I interviewed on the ground, the people who are
staffing it and doing it was what was shocking to me was that

(52:26):
the majority of their clients are in their 40s.
Interesting. And I would have thought that
they. Would have been in their. 60s or
what? And there's this next generation
of people in their, let's call them in their 40s, younger
millennials and so forth, who are being much more proactive
about their healthcare and also tapping into technologies to get

(52:48):
to get information and solutionsabout their healthcare.
And I think that's going to be really emerging as a new, as a
new service products like MEA. I mean you have a.
Very unique niche. I mean, there's really no one
else that does what you do to get ready for some competition.
Somebody's going to say, wait a minute.

(53:09):
Yeah, but the, the. Exactly.
Bring it, bring it on. We really would not.
We wouldn't be. Catalyst.
I'd love to see midlife wisdom schools.
No kidding. I think it's a great idea, but
you know the only other place. Where it exists, as you know is
in the academic world through the post career programs and now
the midlife programs and universities like Stanford
Distinguished Career Institute at.
Harvard and Chicago, you know, and those are great, but.

(53:32):
They're different, yeah. They're just very year long
commitment, right? You know you have to have a lot
of time and money to be able to.That's right.
But that's a product. The other.
Thing that I would say is the whole longevity travel
phenomenon is just blowing up everywhere.
I mean, it's being integrated into so many of the established
spas now, the medical treatmentsthat you can have.

(53:53):
And I don't mean it's medical light.
So it's like biomarker biohacking stuff.
But I think you're familiar withthe estate that Sam Nazarian and
Tony Robbins are doing. To me, that is like really a big
idea. And this is creating longevity
residential communities. So that's sort of what we're
going to do. You're doing some of that.

(54:13):
Here, we're doing that in Santa.In Santa Fe with our campus.
There, as opposed to our ranch campus outside of Santa Fe and
at CES, you know there is. Now a whole, I'll call it H Tech
Pavilion, which are all, sorry, consumer electronics.
Show in Las Vegas, I'll be there.
This January, moderating a panelon longevity H tech.

(54:35):
And there's so many products now, a lot of them being created
through AI applications for sleep, for blood pressure, for,
you know, you name it, it's, it's medical.
So there there's this, this likemassive growth curve happening
across the longevity sector in many, many areas that will be

(54:58):
primarily work their way down tothe consumer level.
And it is the wearables being, you know, the a great example.
And so I think you're going to see more and more of this, you
know, emerge and huge investmentdollars going into all aspects
of of longevity. Yeah, last question.

(55:19):
Wisdom. A question I asked you in the
classroom yesterday. So let's say someone younger,
you know, a young Michael Clinton who's asked, I got the
aspirations to be you someday and wants to tap into that
wisdom says to you, I'd love to have tea or coffee with you next
week. Could you come with a wisdom
bumper sticker and an origin story?

(55:41):
What might be that that piece ofwisdom that you have learned
maybe the hard way because oftenwisdom is the painful life
lessons that has turned into theraw material of wisdom.
What what's the piece of advice or wisdom that has your unique
fingerprints all over? I think I thought about this
since we talked. Yesterday and I think where I

(56:02):
would go and I would say is be true to yourself because the
first of all in the big picture and you know, the famous book,
the five regrets of the dying. Yes.
The number one lesson that I always take away is that most
people, it was a Hospice nurse who sat with people who were
leading the planet. Yeah.
And the number one thing that always resonated with me is

(56:24):
people said, I wish I'd been more true to myself.
I wish I had really been the onewho listened to my own inner,
inner ear. And often times I say to people,
they're going to go and work anddo something in a career or
business that they're really notexcited about, but their parents
have pushed them into because, you know, oh, go be an
investment banker because you make a lot of money and then

(56:46):
blah, blah, blah, blah. And they just don't want to be
an investment banker. And so how do you be true to
yourself and how do you push back on the forces that are
doing that? And at the same time, and I
pride myself on this as a self evaluation, when I was in going
through the ranks, rising in theranks in the publishing world, I

(57:07):
always kept my own bearings about my authenticity, my
honesty, my integrity. I didn't, I, I was very careful
not to get sucked into what could have sucked me into some
of the trappings of my, my, my world.
And that to me was being true tomyself.
And it, it really, I think, opened up the future for me and

(57:30):
got me to the places that I got to.
Yeah. So that would be my answer.
Long ago, Oscar Wilde said be yourself.
Everyone else is taken. That's right, you are an
iconoclast. Michael Clinton.
Thank you for being an inspiration to to me and vice
versa. Yeah, we we are on this.
We're we're. Sort of parallel paths.
And that's always reassuring when you can see someone else

(57:52):
out there, you know, being the pioneer that you are and gives
me more confidence that I can dowhat I'm doing.
So thank you. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Well, I hope you enjoyed that.
Conversation. I I know.
Like when I'm talking with someone like Michael, you know,
time just flies by and he's an inspiration for me.
He's about 7 or 8 years older than me and he is in his early

(58:17):
70s, both in terms of his physical fitness, but also in
terms of his mental and emotional fitness.
He is, he's, he's a role model. And so I, I really appreciated
having the conversation with himwhile we were actually teaching
a workshop here in Santa Fe. So let's start with the first
lesson, which is ROAR. I mean, let's just let's, let's

(58:37):
put it out there. ROAR stands for reimagine own
your age, act and then reassess your relationships.
And, and, you know, I, I think that it's a very simple model.
I, I, you know, I think that oneof the things that I appreciate
is it's, it's easy to remember, not just because the acronym,
because the idea of being a re Imagineer.

(58:59):
This is a, a term that he used in the workshop that we just
taught, but he also uses it in his book and the any in his
newsletter, which I highly recommend you, you subscribe to.
It's free to actually reimagine oneself is one of the most
important things we can do as weget older is to say I have been

(59:19):
this and now I can be that. Which brings me to my second
lesson. Michael is a, he's a role model
for mindset, for how to have a growth mindset, how to actually
go out and run marathons in his 70s and be on doing it on 7
continents. How to shift and write a book in

(59:42):
his late 60s and then create a company that's been very
successful in the B2B space around longevity and aging.
And just really have a point of view, which is you're going to,
you don't know when you're goingto die.
So with each day, you do everything you can to live.
You seize the day and he's a seize the day kind of guy.

(01:00:04):
Thirdly, there's two UK professors who wrote a book a
few years ago called The 100 Year Life.
It was probably one of the firstbooks that really took on the
topic of longevity. Michael is helping us to see
that if we're going to live 100 year life and more and more of
us will. In fact, we have five times as

(01:00:26):
many centenarians in the United States today than we did in
2000. And according to demographers,
we will have five times as many centenarians in the year 2050.
So how do you curate a life whenyou know you're going to live a
long time and it living a long time if you're not healthy is

(01:00:49):
not a good thing? And So what I really appreciate
about his model, the Roar model,but also his way of thinking
about physical health is that you want to actually, as Peter
Attia has shown, you want to actually think about what are
the things you're going to want to do at 80 or 90.
Whether that's making sure you can put a bag up in the in the

(01:01:11):
baggage container, in an airplane, an airplane, or you
can throw your grandchild up in the air, or you can actually
stretch and get off the ground by yourself without actually
having to use your arms. These are the kinds of things we
want to do as we get older. And Michael has really shown in
his book and in his behavior andin his newsletter just how we

(01:01:36):
can think of longevity as being something that is essential in
terms of living a long time. So it's not just that we
actually have lifespan, that we actually have health span as
well. So what a what a great episode.
I'll see you on the next episodeand hope to see you in Baja or
Santa Fe soon enough. Thanks for listening to the

(01:01:58):
Midlife. Chrysalis.
This show is produced by MidlifeMedia.
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