July 9, 2025 • 56 mins
What if your so-called “midlife crisis” was actually a doorway to reinvention?
In this powerful conversation, Burning Man CEO Marian Goodell joins Chip Conley to explore how the radical spirit of Burning Man offers surprising lessons on aging, identity, leadership, and legacy. From embracing impermanence to finding purpose without a script, this episode is a deep dive into how midlife can be your most creative and meaningful chapter yet.
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
00:40 Chips Connection to Burning Man
04:43 What Burning Man Really Is
07:01 How Burning Man Became a Global Movement
08:47 The Core Principles That Guide Everything
11:13 Radical Self-Expression and Creating Without Expectation
13:38 Why Burning Man Attracts People in Midlife Transition
16:43 Loss, Legacy, and What We Leave Behind
21:46 Lessons from Larry Harvey as a Modern Elder
25:05 What She Learned as a Burning Man’s CEO
33:00 What Is Fly Ranch and Why It Matters
36:28 Fly Ranch Like Burning Man’s Feminine Side
39:24 Three Tips for Burning Man First-Timers
42:14 Burning the Man and Temple Rituals
47:22 The Healing Power of Ritual
50:08 Why MEA Resonates with Burners
53:40 Wisdom Bumper Sticker
Learn more about MEA at https://www.meawisdom.com/
#BurningMan #MidlifeCrisis #MidlifeTransformation #MarianGoodell #BurningMan2025 #PersonalGrowth #ReinventionAfter40 #MidlifeAwakening #LifeAfter50 #SpiritualJourney #BurningManExperience #RadicalSelfExpression #MidlifeChrysalis #ChipConley #PurposeInMidlife
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
For me, midlife crisis is kind of funny.
I certainly remember when I was younger thinking that when you
turn 50 you're going to have a midlife crisis.
That was like a thing. And I've come to realize what
you've been doing. It's great to be in your 20s and
30s. Me like rah rah, rah, I can do
it all. But what about where is the
nurturing for the 40's, the 50s and 60s to recognize we're not
(00:21):
done, we're not out to pasture. We have so much to give.
We might even have new ideas of what their self worth is at a
different point in life life andto give them openings to make
the change or take a new journeyif they want to.
Welcome to the Midlife Chrysalispodcast with Chip Conley.
Well, I'm excited about this conversation.
(00:42):
Marion Goodell and I have known each other for about 16 years
when she and her cofounders of Burning Man came to me and said,
Chip, we want you to help createa board of directors for Burning
Man. Who knew that Burning Man had a
board of directors? I got to know her.
I became her mentor when she became CEO.
And more than anything, I've just really revelled in
(01:03):
understanding the Burning Man culture with her along the way.
When after I sold my company, I decided I was going to leap into
the festival world because it was a curiosity I had not had
much time for. And I went to 36 festivals in 16
countries in 2012 and 2013. I started a website called Fest
(01:24):
300 no longer exists that listedthe 300 best festivals in the
world. So the topic of festivals and
collective effervescence, which is a a term that was created by
Emil Durkheim when he studied religious pilgrimages 110 years
ago, is is intriguing to me and I think you'll find that here.
(01:44):
You'll also find in this, in this episode, not just we're not
going to just talk about BurningMan.
We're going to talk about impermanence and aging and
leadership in midlife and a whole variety of other topics.
Hope you enjoy it. Start with the origin story of,
of our connection, which is about 16 years old.
Maybe is I don't think we've ever met before 2009.
(02:08):
I, I think we met when all of the Burning Man founders
conversed on my office into the after the 2009 Burning Man and
all six of you. And next thing I knew you were
telling me that you wanted to create a board.
And first of all, who knew that there was ACEO like a Burning
Man, which you are the CEO of Burning Man.
(02:30):
And then who even knew that you wanted to create a board and
take a for profit business and turn it into a nonprofit?
Tell us that story. Well, I actually think even at
the time that we came to you, I wasn't even CEO.
We had decided to take our LLC fairly flat structured
leadership of the six of us and we wanted to turn it into a
nonprofit for the long haul. We thought we wanted to bring
(02:53):
people together that were that had skills that we didn't all
have, that had influenced experience that we didn't all
have. Certainly we had that around
radical gatherings and playfulness, but we needed to
find people that were also Burning Man adjacent or
interested. And when one of us saw a news
report that Chip Conley, the famous hotelier in San
(03:16):
Francisco, the job we had been to Burning Man, we were all
like, we're going to go visit him and ask him to join our
board. We all had a person that we kind
of saw, but you were like one ofmine.
I think at Harley's we were bothlike, we want to meet him and so
we all couldn't take who was going to come.
So all six of us came to visit you.
Well, and, and the story, the back story on that was part of
(03:38):
the reason there was a lot of press on this was because I went
to Burning Man wearing probably something like this, which came
from a Burning Man trunk show. People took pictures of me and I
put them up on Facebook. And my head of HR for the
company said to me, you have to take your Facebook photos down.
At that time, back in 2009, companies were trying to manage
(04:02):
how to deal with employees who were doing things that might
affect, you know, the reputationof the company.
But rarely was it the CEO that was having to be toned down.
And I went to a media event thatafter the evening of the day,
the head of HR told me that. And I said at the media event,
you know, what do you guys think?
Should I, should I like, take myphotos down?
(04:24):
And they're like, no, of course not.
And so on Monday, I, I told the head of HR, I'm not taking them
down. And that became press.
So all I can say is that, yeah, I, I'm really appreciate, I
spent 10 years with you on that board.
And what a, what an experience to let's talk about Burning Man
and what it is. Some people don't have any clue
(04:45):
what it is, but it is to me a celebration and a liberation of
the, our, our lives in the default world, you know,
celebrating art and spiritualityand utopian living conditions.
Although, you know, Black Rock City is a, is an alkaline desert
with no living animals. And it's a, it's a global
(05:06):
movement. So maybe tell us a little bit
more about what Burning Man is and and how it's grown into what
it is today. Well, Burning Man started in
1986 on a beach in San Francisco, and then it moved to
a desert in Nevada because too many people had shown up for the
one night beach burn and it was basically Labor Day weekend.
It was a little camp out but thevery original intention for the
(05:30):
group had been to really push people into radical
self-reliance and to be bringingwhat you had on you and to
engage in community and they never really expected to create
a festival. So the normal framework of what?
People think you use the word festival.
I know you. Forbid me to use that word.
We never use the word festival. I use it to describe what we
(05:53):
think it isn't. And we don't sell anything
except ice. We sell.
We have no trash cans. And that came deliberately from
the very beginning when the group came together just to to
engage with each other and play and build art.
And that's really an important aspect of what stayed with
Burning Man. That still is very important.
(06:16):
And then you talk about it's become a global movement.
Well, we really think it's become a global movement because
these principles of community engagement that were really
encouraging, very present, very in the moment when you're on the
pie together, that those are really easy to recognize as
valuable tools to take back out into the world.
(06:36):
If you're feeling generous and connective and even spiritual in
this beautiful, vast desert, whyare we not able to get in touch
with that when we're back home? Why can't we feel more engaged
with our neighbors, with the people we work with?
We believe that creating an environment where we've taken
out distractions and we've not removed cell phones, you can
(06:59):
sometimes get cell service. Oh, back in the early days,
well, first of all, back in the early days, there were no cells,
cells but cell phones. But or there are no certainly no
iPhones when my first year was 1999 and yeah, it was every, you
know, this old burners sometimessay.
And the ones that do you like they're crusty like and I like
it used to be. But you know, yeah, nothing is.
(07:20):
Neither are you nothing. Is the global movement part that
is really still something that people are coming to recognize.
In fact, the regional networks been going on for 25 years, a
little over 25 years at this point.
And that's the most powerful piece.
If you, if we look at what kind of growth is really happening in
Black Rock City, we can't have more than 80,000 people and
(07:43):
we're having around 70,000 the last couple of years.
But out in the world, 100,000 people experience these
different Burning Man events, including 10,000 in South
Africa, like these events that are now 34567 days, they have
anywhere between 500 and and 10,000 people.
And that same culture of not having anything to sell,
(08:07):
bringing people together around,joy, connection, building, art,
playing, all of that is really easy to replicate and it makes
you feel really connected. And you don't really care as
much about politics. You don't even know what
countries people are from. You just you're building for the
(08:27):
sake of creating together. And that's really resonating.
And it continues to resonate outbeyond the United States we're
in. I think it's 34 different
countries that are doing these events, but last year we had 92
different countries purchase tickets.
Wow, yeah. 20% of the people arefrom outside the United States.
And of course, it, it's, this isso everybody understands
(08:50):
there's, there's AD modificationperspective.
There are 10 principles. Tell us what the 10 principles
are. And do you have a favorite?
Well, I can. I like to touch on a couple of
them. I mean, it's really one of the
things that people find fascinating about the 10
principles is there's a bit of adichotomy.
We have radical self-reliance and then we have communal
(09:10):
effort. So we really expect the
individual to come and to show up as an individual and take
care of themselves and not sort of flop around and rely on
everybody else is going to take care of me.
But we also really count on people recognizing that you're
in the context of a community. So, you know, something falls
over in the windstorm. It's not like ha ha, ha, that's
your intent. It's like, oh, how can I help
(09:32):
you hold it up? Some of the ones that are super
unusual, we have a leave No Trace principle.
We have no public trash cans. And that's by design.
And that really allows the individual to think about their
own waste stream. And I remember my first year
getting my box of cereal and recognizing that the plastic
(09:56):
paper, the wax paper, that I could bring that home that big,
but the cardboard box. And so we started realizing you,
the participants themselves willbe more conscious of what
they're bringing if they have totake it away and not just leave
it with us. And that's a transformative
principle. Decommodification is the one
that's the hardest for people tounderstand.
They think it means that we're against money.
(10:18):
We just really feel like you can't buy experience.
We want to take away the commodification and the
transaction. We want people to be authentic.
So you can't buy yourself a bring in experience.
You come and you help build yourcamp.
You help do chores in your camp,or you build your own art, or
(10:41):
you have an idea and you get others to build your art or you
build an art car. The point of these things are to
create ways in which we can worktogether and play together.
And we believe in money and we have a very significant
nonprofit. We have about 140 year round
employees at a $66 million budget.
So we believe in money, but it'sthat we don't believe that in
(11:04):
the course of the Burning Man cultural experience, when we're
gathering, that money is going to create a better connection.
Well, it's the gifting economy, people.
One of the best things to do at Burning Man, by the way, I'm
just seeing my cleavage. For those of you not watching
video, you're just doing the audio.
This is 1 to watch video on thispodcast episode.
(11:27):
Yeah. I just love going with friends
and then and I've been, you know, 14 times and just walking
around or riding my bike around and just going to other camps
and then they feed you. I mean, like it is an
environment in which serendipity, we call it
immediacy in, in as a, as one ofthe, it's the 10th principle.
It's my favorite principle at Burning Men.
(11:49):
It's about actually having serendipity tap you on the
shoulder and and often in the form of a gift.
And sometimes it may not even look like it.
A gift. A gift in that moment.
Well, the gifting is very deliberate.
Early on we saw people bartering.
So we had a a year of barter bars and I still, I was in an
elevator the other day and someone said, oh, I know about
(12:11):
birding man, you guys do bartering, right?
And she was really proud that she knew something, but I was
like, well, before I finished it, she's like, wait, it's
gifting. There eerily is a different
bartering is still a transaction.
It's like, oh, is my massage worth your stuffed animal?
In our case, it's like, you wanta massage?
I got a massage. Want the stuffed animal?
Want the sticker? You want the drink?
(12:31):
I have a gift for you. I mean, I had something to do
with radical self-expression. I had just come out of art
school when I met Larry and he had said to me art, art, art,
art. And I had learned in art school
that there are some people that were inclined towards being
artists, commercial artists, making a living and being
artists. But I had experienced the joy of
(12:54):
just creating without really knowing what I was going to do
with it. And I shared with him that
having gone to Burning Man for two years, the way it really
provokes you to feel like being yourself and whether that's a
costume or being playful, being yourself might being trying to
help being yourself might be having a really big idea and
(13:17):
getting everybody to come do it with you.
So I personally like radical self-expression.
I think it regard. Yeah, that's mine.
I have done that with you. I've been we we've been we were
in the same camp for many, many,many years in a row.
And you said I even had AI had aJesus character who was
radically self expressing himself as as a serendipity
moment. We won't go into that one.
(13:38):
So this is called the midlife chrysalis.
And I'm just curious whether what's your point of view on
people who think that their midlife crisis means that
they're supposed to go to the desert?
And some of the the way that theworld who's never been to
Burning Man sees Burning Man sometimes as just this, you
know, I don't know, bacchanaliannaked, you know, sex fest or
(14:02):
something like that, which is really only a small portion of
Burning Man. Well, you know, so that's a
complicated way. Let me think, first of all, for
me, midlife crisis is kind of funny.
I kind of forgot that it even existed until you invited me and
you're like, well, you know, it's like, what is midlife?
And I was like, oh, am I in midlife?
I guess I am kind of a might be past it.
(14:23):
I certainly remember when I was younger thinking that when you
turn 50, you're going to have a midlife crisis.
That was like a thing. I'm past 50 now.
I haven't really had a midlife crisis.
Thankfully. I've enjoyed my midlife, which I
am going to enjoy talking about with you.
I think Burning Man is, it's funny thing about Burning Man is
(14:45):
the age range in it. And I hear stories about it.
I, they, we have the 20 somethings that are just
starting to re engage with it. I mean, when I, when I was in my
early 30s, we, it certainly havebeen in the desert at this point
for now 30 years. And we've got parents that have
brought kids. We have kids that have brought
parents, we've got 70 year olds and 80 year olds.
(15:08):
And there definitely is a sweet spot between like 35 and 50 of
people that you know are making a change in their life.
And I again, I heard someone theother day telling me she'd never
been and she thought it was timeto go.
And I was like, oh, why? And she said, well, I've just
gone through a big change in my life and I think it might be the
place for me to to re engage andfeel joyful again.
(15:31):
And here we've got this midlife crisis concept.
And I think there are some people that do come to Burning
Man to get their ya Yas out. Certainly we do see people who
have changed their work status or gotten divorced or lost a
partner. It makes you playful, it makes
you connect, It gives you hope. Maybe the crisis, the way we
(15:53):
societally look at this, is wrong.
Maybe it's a transformational era.
Yes, you're liquefying an identity.
Identity, in fact, people have Playa names, so you can sort of
go to Burning Man and be whoeverthe hell you want to be.
And for many people that's quiteliberating.
In fact, I think that's why a lot of, you know, people from
(16:14):
Silicon Valley have enjoyed it and it's known as a, a, a place
that a lot of people from Silicon Valley go.
In the early days, it was the designers and the engineers and,
and over time it was the venturecapitalist and a lot of other
people. But it the, the idea that you
can sort of liberate yourself ina chrysalis kind of fashion,
such that on the other side of this, you feel like you've gone
(16:36):
through the gloom of the chrysalis and you can be a
butterfly. And I mean, tell, talk a little
bit more about that. And, and maybe let's talk about
your chrysalis. And is there is there a time in
your midlife where you have had a a truly transitional or
transformational experience thatled you to becoming wiser as a
(16:58):
result of it? I've lost a parent 15 years ago
and then I lost my aunt and I was her executor.
And I think at that point, and that was about, that was about
five years ago. And to me, those were pretty
important kind of midlife experiences.
(17:19):
I didn't lose anybody important when I was in my 20s or 30s.
I definitely lost these very close people when I was in my
50s. I think it was it parallels that
point where you're asking yourself, have you made the
accomplishments? Have you reached the goals that
you wanted to reach? And in the case of both of them,
and at least with my aunt in particular, I went through her
(17:40):
belongings and helped sort out her belongings.
And I thought about all the stories that each of these
things had. She'd already downsized a bit,
but she had told me stories about different things.
And it really struck me how easyit is to accumulate things, and
that while we're accumulating the things, they feel so
important and they represent stories, that they represent how
(18:01):
we see ourselves. And then when we're gone, we've
left behind all these things. And it was pretty
transformational for me to have taken in some of my dad's things
and when my mom was downsizing and she's still alive, taking in
her things and having my own things.
And the degree to which I've accumulated some things that
mean something to me and some things that don't mean something
(18:23):
to me. And it's really made me think a
lot about culture and myself andfamily history and have for sure
changed the way in which I perceive the accumulation of
things. I think a lot about am I leaving
(18:43):
things behind that need tags on them to tell people what they
meant to me? Should I be videotaping things?
Like, I think about my story andI think the things that I've
looked at from my aunt, I, I sawher story, but it wasn't written
anywhere. And I was like, she didn't have
any children. I don't have any children, Chip.
You know, I think for me, a lot of what I've thought about with
(19:09):
my aunt and my father and even the work I've been doing with
Burning Man, but really from those two positions was by not
having children. Did I make a decision to allow
my story to be lost or in what ways do I want my story to be
held and remembered? And it particularly came across
with my both my aunt and my father were accomplished in
(19:31):
different ways. My father was accomplished as a
business person and my aunt was kind of like a playful renegade
that traveled the world. And I have both of my on my mom
and my dad's side. There's no cousins.
They 1 married and never had children.
The other one married a couple of times and never had children.
One never married. So I I have looked at my aunts
(19:54):
and uncles as really super influential with who I am and
have built a life for myself where I'm influential in that
particular way. But really came to head when I
was looking at all my aunts things and I thought, wow, what
is the what are the Talisman? What are the stories?
What are the pieces that I. Want to have left behind to tell
(20:17):
my story? I'll show you one of mine.
For. Those of you who haven't seen
the video, I just held up a a framed certificate, actually a
piece of art actually, and it actually has an image of me in
what I'm exactly wearing right now and it's a beautiful piece
(20:40):
of art. Saying thanks from Larry and the
team. We'll talk about Larry, who
Larry is in a minute 4 by 10 years of service to Burning Man
and the ability to have two tickets to Burning Man the rest
of my life. You know, that's unusual and
that's something, you know, I soimportant as we get older, like
(21:02):
experiences are so much more important than the material
things. And we'll I want to come back to
the topic of impermanence in a little while, but let's talk
about your relationship with Larry.
Larry was like your modern elderon some level.
He who is Larry and and how did you relate to him?
What kind of wisdom did you learn from this this this modern
(21:23):
elder named Larry Harvey? Well, Larry was the original
person who, with his friend Jerry James, built the first man
and took it to the Baker Beach and burned it on the summer
solstice. He was in his 30s at the time
and was grieving his humanity, alost love, being adopted a whole
(21:43):
lot of things and felt that thatcreative act was going to help
him heal and it did brought a lot of people around him.
That was in 1986. I met him in 1990, early late
1996, in the fall of 1986. He was the philosophical leader
(22:06):
of Burning Man. He was self-taught, well read,
studied Victorian literature, urban design, psychology, was a
big fan of Freud. You know, he was always, he was
searching for the answers of ourhumanity and our connection with
one another. I met him and he became my
(22:28):
sweetheart. We were sweethearts for five
years. That put me right in the middle
of all of this deeply. It was like an internship.
Oh my God, this is like Bill Clinton, like sleeping with the
intern. I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. What did you learn from him?
Gosh, he taught. He taught so much to so many in
(22:49):
just his way of thinking. I learned a lot about humanity
in general, the way he studied humans.
It was. That's why I saw him really as a
philosopher. I think on some days he was an
amateur psychologist. Oh, for sure.
For sure, I think I learned about perseverance.
(23:10):
I had perseverance, but it beingwith him professionally and
personally allowed that to thrive.
Where the world often has reasons why something might not
work, he saw he had just an imagination of things that could
work. For me personally, it was really
exciting to play in a realm of possibility and not in a realm
(23:34):
of limitation. And that was one of the driving
forces for many of us around Burning Man is all the
possibilities in play and creation and architecture of
human, you know, bringing peopletogether in humanity.
I mean, he was so funny. He was such a quirky person.
(23:54):
I learned about, I think I learned a lot about compassion.
You know, he had so many wide variety of experiences.
I'd had a fairly, I'd had a lot of experiences, but my, you
know, upbringing was fairly normal.
And he had had wide experiences and he'd been to different
places with different people in ways that gave him a lot of
(24:16):
compassion. And I definitely learned through
him that we all are coming from a different place, that some of
us are very fortunate, some people aren't as fortunate.
I don't know whether he was morepatient than me.
I think some days he was more patient than me and some days he
was not. I think both of you are rather
(24:37):
impatient, but I, I sort of likethat about you.
I'm impatient as well, my dear. You have tenacity and grace, You
really do. I mean, to be the CEO of an
organization like Burning Man does actually take some patience
with people and with the craziness of that community.
What is some wisdom you've learned over the How many years
have you been CEO now? 20/13/2014 That was the range.
(25:01):
It's about 11 or 12 years. So what would you say is a piece
of wisdom that Marian Goodell has learned about leadership in
the community of Burning Man as the CEO?
Well, I think you're right aboutthe patients.
One, that's kind of funny. I mean, I think I was raised in
a household where my dad was pretty impatient.
(25:21):
And so I never really saw impatience as a problem.
It was a motivator. It was time to go to church, get
in the car. But I think with Burning Man,
the fact that we were building acommunity and we're building
volunteer groups, and so I know that I had to learn more
patients that I came into with it.
(25:42):
I've had to learn. I think self reflection is one
of the more interesting ones. I definitely wasn't raised in a
household. We were told to say I'm sorry,
you know, I'm sorry I hit my sister.
My dad would be like your. Sister Martha.
Well, I have three sisters and we would, we would wrestle like
boys sometimes. And we were supposed to not just
say I'm sorry, but we had to sayI'm sorry, sister dear.
(26:04):
You were ladies. Well, because he really felt
like family was deeply importantand to damage that tie in any
way was really something he wanted to reverse.
But the thing I don't know that that that did, that Burning Man
did, there wasn't any opportunity for his real self
reflection. Like you say, I'm sorry, but
(26:24):
what is there in the same familyenvironment, the chance to sort
of recognize, oh, what is it youdo that are affecting others?
But I think Burning Man, I mean,I think that's the probably the
number one lesson that Burning Man and being a leader in
Burning Man has given me is how important self reflection is to
be a good leader. But really to be a good
community member, to listen to the cues of the community around
(26:46):
you, to determine what's important for your membership in
the community. If you want to feel that feeling
of belonging in community, it comes with self reflection.
You've got to figure out what you want from the community and
what you're willing to do to be in the community and how you
want to show up. And I think I've learned so much
about how to show up. When I became the CEO, I was
(27:13):
ready on some levels, but the fastest work I had to do was
learning to be less self-defensedefensive and to be more self
reflective and to listen to feedback, personal feedback,
faster. We, we had some sessions, you
and I had a number of one on ones where I really appreciated
how open you were with me. And there were times I can see
(27:36):
you and it's hard to be in your role and have you, you know,
the, all these people on the sort of Silicon Valley wealth
side and then all these sort of anarchists on the side and the
politics of it. You know, I, I'll never forget
one day where I had, I think lunch with Grover Norquist from
the Committee for growth, which is, which is very, very, very
(27:59):
conservative, and then had dinner with Dennis Kucinich,
very much very, very progressive.
And so the reality is there's a,the community is much broader
than a lot of people think. And therefore your, you had
stakeholders when you became CEOof your other five founders.
(28:19):
You had the stakeholders of the board, you had the stakeholders
of your employees, you had the stakeholders of the community to
Gerlock and, and the, and the stakeholders of all of the
donors, all of the people who come.
I mean, my God, everybody was shouting at you.
How are you? How did you survive that?
(28:40):
No, I think I don't. I don't know where I got my
resilience from. Chip I I definitely credit my
parents with giving me a solid upbringing and myself.
Confidence certainly came from that.
And I think I've really believedin the values of what Burning
Man means. And I definitely believe that my
(29:03):
close relationship with Larry and then working alongside the
founders together, you know, we,I first met them in 1996.
So coming up on 30 years, I first went to Burning Man 30
years ago. There aren't a lot of people
that worked that closely alongside basically total
strangers, not friends that found a way to, because the
(29:24):
mission was bigger than themselves, stay on track when
they gave me that responsibility, which was even
heightened even more when Larry passed away.
I, I look for the authentic reason that I'm here for and the
duty that I've bought into and the service that I'm here to do.
You know, it's the most, I mean,it's, I was raised by a Reagan
(29:46):
Republican, capitalist, Irish Catholic, you know, all the Anne
Randian things. And Burning Man does look and
show up like it's one particularthing.
And I think part of what I'm really, really committed to is
the way in which it is a place where people of all types can
find something in themselves that's that that is looking for
(30:08):
belonging and is authentic. That's allowed me to really take
in a lot of criticism either personally or about Burning Man.
There's always someone with an opinion, always some with
opinion. Like you said, it's donors and
it's board members, it's community members, it's staff
members, it's politicians. You know, when we make a small
mistake, we definitely hear it from elected officials.
(30:31):
And I go to Washington, DC, and I sit with people and they might
be Republicans and they might beDemocrats.
And I've got people patting me on the back on both sides.
Oh, you did a great job cleaningthings up.
Oh, you did a great job, you know, running your business
well. Oh, you did a great job managing
local politics. You know, there's always
something. And I, I don't know, I felt like
(30:51):
I was built for it, Chip. And how much longer are you
going to be doing that, that CEOthing?
Any idea? Well, I think the, really the
point when I joined and took therole was the, the whole point of
my role was to set the structureup for the longer term for me
not to be sitting here doing this.
(31:12):
I don't get to sell out. I don't get to take my stocks
and sell them. And then, you know, I've got a
tiny little package to, to go away with.
So that's the friction in the system.
Like if you're not going to do abuyout, what makes you want to
go? What makes me want to leave is
not really leave entirely, but is to change the way in which I
(31:33):
function so that I can take all of these relationships I've
built over the years. I'm definitely the one with the
biggest network in the whole organization and that that means
fundraising, that means talks. I'm a good storyteller.
That's the stuff that I'd like to be spending my time with.
So I've been spending the last two years and I'm definitely at
(31:55):
a really great birthing stage for storyline around the
architecture of the organizationbecause it's really interesting
and delicate. I'm not just CEO, but I'm a
founder CEO. So, so many things come up to me
and people think they need my answers when my work right now
is what are the structures that we can implement here?
(32:17):
To have the organization be hierarchical necessarily at this
size, but to also be engaging and collaborative and flat and
that the decision making that isso cultural and have other
points for input. Yes.
I don't know how much longer you'll see me doing this.
I think you'll see me in my leadership position for a long
(32:38):
time. I'd like it to be a little
invisible. I'd like to be able to hand off
the administrative work sooner rather than later.
You know, it's, it's, it's not anormal CEO spot.
I'd, I think that it, I think we've got rising stars in the
organization and I think giving people a chance to run things
(33:00):
and, and spread their wings administratively is, is my goal.
And I'd love to move people intotheir comfort zones as soon as
they're ready. A.
Few years ago there was a an acquisition of Fly Ranch.
Can you explain to people what that is and what, how it relates
to the long term of Burning Man?Because for those who don't know
(33:21):
it, the the Burning Man event that happens in the desert
happens on federal land. Also BLM, not not Black Lives
Matter, but Bureau of Land Management.
So therefore there's a lot of bureaucracy into attached to it.
So why did it make sense to buy the Fly Ranch?
(33:41):
And what is Fly Ranch? Well, Fly Ranch is 3400 acres of
land north of the town of Garlack, Nevada, which is near
the Black Rock Desert, which is the home of Burning Man.
It was important to buy the property for a number of
reasons. One is we we have storage
property in the area and this was not intended to be that.
(34:03):
This property was really intended to overtime do what it
has been doing, which is become a platform for innovation and
growth and storytelling about how people can gather together
in smaller groups. So we've been using that
property for that. We are now getting permits to
have larger groups, but to do itin not just a typical format but
(34:25):
using the opportunity to have conversations around things like
sustainability, like water management, around food
production. The groups that are mostly doing
these gatherings have been Burners Without Borders.
So some of what they talk about are solar and tools that they
(34:47):
use in disaster relief. So folks come together several
times a year. They're not all listening to art
cars and putting up art. They're actually coming together
and talking about ideas that solve different problems out in
our world. Practical.
These are more like practical camp outs, but it's set on 3200
acres where there's a hot springnearby, a big wide open Playa,
(35:10):
and now there's art. So over the last couple of years
we take art, large art from the Burning Man event.
And so it's a contemplative place.
It's a place where you're in nature, It's a place where you
can gather together. And we're continuing to grow
that slowly so that we have opportunities for the public to
come and enjoy it. We'd like to have the events get
(35:32):
a bit bigger and it's a long term place.
If Black Rock City can't happen on the Black Rock Desert for
whatever reason with the government fly is that home?
And you were a big supporter. You were the first person who
saw the vision. And you said, I want to get
behind it. And that started what is now a
really very important piece of property for us.
(35:53):
I mean, they're they're they're right now they are taking waste
from the Burning Man event that is composted.
They take it to Reno and the next cycle of that same waste
from the Burning Man event and composting comes back and is
actually helping them plant for food and harvesting food on this
property. And these are people that some
(36:13):
of them know how to do this and some people don't.
So we're also teaching people these different skills that you
can be using in different aspects of our life.
And it's not just rural, but we can use these in in with urban
problems. Yeah, it it is.
Whereas Black Rock City is a perched alkaline desert.
It and it you and you get, as itwas very well publicized 2 years
(36:38):
ago, you get the rains and then and then the actual desert just
like cakes on to your feet. I mean, like you can't move
around. I mean, it's a very, it's hot
and it's, you have all the same weather 10 miles away, but it's
a series of these Hot Springs and hot pools.
And my my, my funny story is that I was part of a group that
(37:00):
was AI think it was a like some kind of event that I I was
invited to and two. 1000. And nine, so it's that same year
actually. And I it was maybe a potential
donor event and things like that.
And so they bust us over and it was very lucky to be there.
And I'd never been there and I didn't really didn't know much
about it The moment we got there.
(37:21):
I, I'm a hot spring spring slut.And so I just immediately knew
there was a hot spring's pool. I took off all my clothes and I
went, it's got this mud, it's got this volcanic mud and, and I
just caked my body and I didn't care about the drinks and the
food and the, the Foo Foo party over there.
I was like, I'm going over here.And it was one of my rituals.
(37:42):
And, and, you know, I, I, I justthink it's beautiful.
And what I love about it is it gives the intimacy and, and it's
also, it's the feminine to the masculine to me.
Black Rock City is very masculine and hard and harsh
and, and this is robustly generative.
You know, it's wet and beautifuland lots of birds and wild
(38:05):
horses and it's, it's nature. It, it's like, it's so
shockingly different 10 miles away.
So I don't know. It's an Oasis, Yeah.
I mean, some people we don't. There aren't really any tours
during Black Rock City because it's a little distracting for
people to leave. But I think that's the magic of
it is to come there offseason and really enjoy the desert.
(38:27):
You know, it's the one of the places that has the most dark
skies in the country. So a camp out on the Black Rock
Desert, a camp out on fly, you can see the Milky Way stronger
than I ever see the Milky Way, even in Ohio and Michigan, you
know, which is where I was raised.
So there's a lot of aspects to coming out and being in an area
like that. And you know, when nature is a
(38:48):
little harsher, it gives you more reason to contemplate your
existence and how you interact with nature.
So we just think that this pieceof property is a really great
place to bring our culture, bring ourselves, be in nature,
connect together, prototype building, you know, better
solutions. So I would recommend everybody
(39:10):
go to the Fly Ranch, but but theBurning Man website, but also
the Fly Ranch website. And we'll make sure that that's
in the, the show notes. So this, this podcast will be
coming out about a month and a half before Burning Man.
And so let's say that someone who's coming to Burning Man this
year, a virgin who's never been to Burning Man before is going
(39:31):
or, or someone who is considering coming to Burning
Man in the future. What would be 3 pieces of advice
or tips the CEO Marian Goodell of Burning Man would give to a
virgin? Well, it's funny, it's changed
over the years for sure. More recently, the first thing
people ask, and it's very commonof all ages.
(39:52):
I don't know who to camp with. I don't have a camp.
And that just cracks me up because I first, the first time
I came, I came with four people.And the second time I came, I
think there were six of us. And I don't think you need a
camp. I think you, if you know how to
camp, then you come and you camp.
I would say another thing is I you have to come without a lot
(40:16):
of expectations and you'll be pleasantly surprised.
You want to bring your best self.
And figure that the whole point of being there is connecting
with people. And then the third thing might
be, I would say, seek out engagement that you've never had
(40:39):
before. Seek out the things that that
you're not necessarily afraid of, but things that aren't
comfortable. Become a beginner at something,
you know, like make a fool of yourself, do it, but do it with
other people who are doing the same.
What are you? So gosh, there's so much I could
ask you, but I actually want to talk about something about
(41:00):
impermanence because one of the things that about Burning Man
that is, I just think revelatoryfor people the first time they
come, yes, it's you know, at night time with all the colors
and everything else. It's I mean, it's just
remarkable the amount of art, how many art pieces are there's,
there's both the informal art which people are just making all
the time, but there's a number of pieces of art on the Playa.
(41:23):
How many pieces typically in a year we.
Place over 400 pieces, usually 430, so between 400 and 450.
So that's anybody who wants likea spot on the ground.
We fund usually $1.5 million in art, so that's usually around 70
pieces. So, you know, we're helping
(41:44):
stimulate the art in the community, but there's a very
significant number of art piecesout there.
The other kind of art trip that I love is art cars.
And art cars can go back to the hometown.
They can be in the July 4th parade.
They can be in the Historical Day parade.
I've seen them in Houston. Houston has their art car parade
and Oh my God, it's a it's, it'sso much fun to just see a bunch
(42:05):
of Burning Man art cars in Houston.
So. Houston Art Car Parade is over
the top. It is so fun and playful.
So the impermanence really comesfrom the fact that on Saturday
night you burn a huge effigy, the man, and then on Sunday
night you burn the temple. Can you explain the the ritual
(42:29):
associated with both of those and the energy on a Saturday
night of burning the man and Sunday night burnt the burning
of the temple. And then just maybe muse on the
fact that is this impermanence, this, you know, a real
reflection on our lives, you know, the idea of aging and
(42:51):
legacy and the idea that impermanence is, is sort of
woven into the human experience.I think that's what a lot of
people actually come away with it from Burning Man, that they
don't realize that they're goingto get from it.
The people think all the art burns.
All the art doesn't burn. I don't think we even have seven
(43:12):
major burns anymore. The man does burn on Saturday
night. Used to burn on Sunday before
Labor Day. Now it burns on Saturday because
on Sunday is the temple. The man is very artful.
The base of the man is differentfrom every every year.
That's considered the biggest celebration of the gathering.
And then obviously very much so the impermanence of being there.
(43:35):
You've played, you've circulated, you've done these
things. And then the man burns.
And then you're sort of like, now what do I do?
I go home. But you realize that whole magic
as that's done. And it's up to you what you're
going to do with that magic and how you're going to take that
with you because the man's gone.And in fact, the man is a beacon
(43:56):
of location. And if you're not careful,
careful, that's the night you'llmost likely get lost as you're
wandering around. Wait, wait, wait, where was I?
So that's also part of the impermanence.
It's like, OK, I knew where I was for days, and now I don't
know where I am. And the man is burned.
And now what do I do? And that's a really fascinating
way to put yourself into the thezeitgeist of Burning Man is
(44:19):
like, OK, now I'm going to move on.
Now I'm going to go home. Now I'm going to put everything
away. What am I going to do with it?
The temple, it is like a gentle space to hold for people.
Not everybody stays for the temple.
More than 2/3 of the community usually stays for the temple.
Everybody almost somehow engageswith the community.
(44:39):
It's with it when they're there.It's not an easy place to go
into. It's become the place that is
the most revered. It's a place that people are
quiet in. They honor those they've lost.
There's usually people put up stories about their loved ones,
(45:00):
cats, dogs, horses, husbands, wives, people of all ages and
all types and write something onthe temple, tell stories.
So it's really holding space. It's hold space for grief.
But many people also feel that it's also holding space for joy
because there is joy in the release from death and the loss.
There is letting go. So the temple is this.
(45:22):
It's a place that holds space for our ourselves and our souls
and, and loss and future. So when we burn the temple on
Sunday night, that really is theDe no ma.
There's the powerful bam of the man and there's it's ruckus and
it's loud and there's music and there's fireworks and then
there's the burning of the temple.
(45:43):
And when that burns, everybody around it is quiet.
You know, you barely can hear a thing and you hear the crackling
of the fire. You can't really hear the
crackling of the fire for the man burned because the music is
so loud, but you hear the crackling of the fire.
And those rituals are so powerfully important for Burning
Man. Like, I can't even comprehend
(46:05):
that. The way in which the culture is
held in our hearts and the way that we leave with it.
I mean, I love festivals. I've been to Coachella a number
of times. I've been to Bonnaroo, which I
found super fun outside lands inSan Francisco.
Aside from the big headliner on the last night, you know there's
no real ritual to it. There's no there's nothing that
(46:27):
has you stop and reflect on yourexperience and why you've been
there and why you're there. In general.
It's really hard not to go to the Man Burn or to the Temple
Burn and not stare quietly at the fire for just a minute and
think, why am I here or thank you or wow, or what joy.
(46:48):
And those rituals, either one ofthose two rituals are very
deliberate. And for us to hold the space for
them and protect them. The ritual of being quiet when
the temple burns, that the community started that, I mean,
we didn't write, we don't send things around, say don't talk,
don't sing. That was the thing to do.
(47:09):
The burning of either of these two beautiful structures, these
solemn places, these majestic places, sets us back.
And to think it's all here for ashort period of time.
There's a gentleman named Melodoma Somay who passed away
recently as an African scholar. And he says the difference
(47:29):
between routine, which is our normal life, and ritual is in a
ritual you are willing to be altered.
And my sense is, you know, of course, Burning Man, there's
lots to talk about altered states, but you could.
The first time I ever went to Burning Man, I was completely
sober. No alcohol, no drugs, nothing.
And I can tell you that you can have an altering experience
(47:52):
without doing anything, you know, to, to change your state
because the the root the ritual of Burning Man, not just these
two experiences on Saturday and Sunday night, but there's
rituals throughout the day. There's even a schedule you get
that says here's all the things that are happening all day long
all over Black Rock City. And so many of them are, are
ritualistic and, and in very, you know, wonderful ways.
(48:16):
But so here's a here's a thoughtful, deep question.
You were going to say something.Well I was just going to say I
didn't really realize. I was raised Catholic so I
understood ritual and we went tochurch every Sunday.
I didn't really understand the power of the ritual of Burning
Man, either the Man Burn or the event itself or the temple,
until the pandemic when we had to stop and the amount of grief
(48:38):
that people had for not going and I couldn't figure it out.
At first I was just sort of like, well, just go play in your
own places. But I really came to understand
that ritual that if you, if something really means something
to you, that the ritual itself is feeding you the actual
ritual. So it might be stormy one year
at Burning Man, it might be dusty, it might be hot.
(48:59):
But the fact that you put yourself together and you came
up with your ideas and you're brought yourself there to play,
but that ritual is really affirming.
It makes us, I think it makes mefeel timeless and ageless to
have a ritual that you're reallyfond of.
It's like, oh OK, I'm in it. Here's my hardest question.
You're impermanent. I'm impermanent.
(49:20):
Someday people will go to the burn.
They'll go to the temple. There'll be a photograph of you
there. You've passed.
What do you want people to say about you?
What do you want to be written about?
You. What's the what's the Marian
Goodell story, briefly, that might actually be emblazoned?
(49:42):
I, I knew you were going to ask me this and I honestly have
spent so little time really thinking about that.
I had enough of a hard time to think about a headstone for my
aunt and, and we, my sisters andI are still deliberating on it
because she doesn't really have a headstone.
She's like in a mausoleum and New Orleans like they do, I
(50:03):
think. Renegade aunt.
I like that. Yes, renegade aunt OK, one of
your sisters has been to MEA, the modern Elder Academy and
many of your MEA, many of your Burning Man leaders and
employees have come and we do a lot of rituals.
(50:24):
And Christine Sperber, one of myCo founders and I were lucky
enough last year to be able to come to your headquarters in in
San Francisco to be able to helplead a leadership retreat.
You know what's? Do you have any impressions on
MEA and why it exists and why it's needed?
Well, I'm fascinated. I've known you long enough to
(50:46):
see you have some really interesting journeys and your
journeys are always around from when I first met you.
Ways for people to connect to themselves, connect to others
and to lift up. And I thought when you went into
this modern elder concept, at first I didn't quite understand
(51:07):
it. And then I really understood it.
And I certainly understood it through the eyes of the Co
workers and the leaders and my sister in There's a point in
your life when you may not have reached where you wanted to go
or you're trying to get to whereyou've wanted to go.
And some people may be really hard on themselves and may feel
that they've not reached it. But you seem to bring people a
(51:29):
framework for them to connect with what they have accomplished
and how they can still accomplish things and what kind
of possibilities and how to build more possibility.
And that age is not, it's a number, you know, the state of
mind of how you are and how you show up.
My grandfather died at 90 and hewas going to work.
(51:49):
He was his wife had made him breakfast and he had a heart
attack at 90. I didn't.
There was no retirement in my history.
My my dad retired and got bored and went back to work for the
Buffalo Symphony Orchestra. I made a dollar.
His compensation was a dollar because he didn't need the
money, but he wanted the sense of purpose to be doing it.
I was reading a book by Carl De Rossi, the founder of the birth
(52:13):
control pill. And the book is a series of
essays and he wrote them when hewas 62 or 63 or he wrote the
book and he said that was the that was the beginning.
He wrote the book in his 90s buttold about his 60s.
He wrote the this some chapters to this and he said the 60s were
when you turn in his early 60s, they're in the most inspiring
for him. And I've come to realize what
(52:36):
you've been doing is helping. It's great to be in your 20s and
30s and be like rah, rah, rah. I can do it all.
But what about where is the nurturing for the 40's, the 50s
and 60s to recognize we're not done, we're not out to pasture.
We have so much to give. We have wisdom, we have
storytelling. We might even have new ideas
(52:58):
that haven't been sparked yet bygiving.
But giving us an access to otherpeople from other cultures,
other walks of life, other ages that, that collaboration and
that, that bringing of the wisdom together will feed us and
feed others. We're so in silos.
But I, I love what modern elder is doing and how you're, I mean,
(53:22):
it really opened me up. I've got so many staff members
that are like, OK, when do I getto be the one that goes?
Because you guys have really helped people, inspire them to
think of what their self worth is at a different point in life
and to give them openings to make the change or take a new
journey if they want to. You use the word wisdom.
And my last question is, you know, over the course of our
(53:45):
lives, if we're if we're, if we're good at it, we learn our
lessons along the way and we metabolize life experience into
wisdom. If if someone came to you and
said, I want to tap into your wisdom, Marian, next week, let's
have some coffee or tea. And they said I want you to give
(54:05):
me a wisdom bumper sticker. Not it, not physically, but just
a thought, A thought that is based upon an origin story.
What is a piece of wisdom that feels like it's got Marion's
fingerprints, wisdom fingerprints all over it?
I probably have two. I would say that one is live
(54:27):
with minimal regrets and the other one is take the road less
traveled. And I think the one that is
easier to express in ways that even more people can grab on to
is take the road less traveled. I remember when I was younger,
my mother reading a book, I think there's a Robert Frost
poem about I took the road and apath less traveled and has made
(54:50):
all the difference. And I guess I get really kind of
choked up saying that because I made a lot of decisions along
the way that I'm so proud of. I didn't deliberately not get
married, but I didn't pursue it at the same time my friends
were, or they were just anxious for it or they're anxious for
children. I chose at that.
I knew at that point I had a choice.
(55:12):
And each time I made those choices, you know, I didn't have
any other Burning Man had no money to pay us our first years.
I lived off my savings and I hadfriends that were going to work
for tech companies that, you know, sold their stocks
eventually and live in big houses now.
But each of these times I know that I was choosing a road less
traveled and it has made all thedifference.
(55:35):
It has, you have. I hope you will write a book
someday. You have a lot of stories to
tell. And most importantly, you're
just. You're somebody I just love
deeply. I love you.
You've been a great mentor to me, Chip.
You do exemplify so many of the different things we've talked
about today. You definitely gave me chance
(55:57):
for self reflection. You were a great listener.
You made it really possible for me to come and check in with
you. I admired your success in the
world and you pointed out alwaysthe successes that we were
having. And so your mentorship for all
so many people, your capacity amazes me.
(56:18):
So I'm very grateful, I'm very grateful to know you and thank
you for inviting me to come havea chat with you.
Yes, well and we're going to getyou to to MBA one day.
Absolutely would like to be an MBA.
I've heard of some of the thingsthat you all do.
I've heard about the bread ritual, which I hear is
fabulous. My sister loved that.
You guys are doing great things.You're doing great work.
(56:40):
Thanks for being with us. Thank you.
Thank you for watching the Midlife Chrysalis Podcast.
For me, midlife crisis is kind of funny.
I certainly remember when I was younger thinking that when you
turn 50 you're going to have a midlife crisis.
That was like a thing. And I've come to realize what
you've been doing. It's great to be in your 20s and
30s. Me like rah rah, rah, I can do
it all. But what about where is the
nurturing for the 40's, the 50s and 60s to recognize we're not
(00:21):
done, we're not out to pasture. We have so much to give.
We might even have new ideas of what their self worth is at a
different point in life life andto give them openings to make
the change or take a new journeyif they want to.
Welcome to the Midlife Chrysalispodcast with Chip Conley.
Well, I'm excited about this conversation.
(00:42):
Marion Goodell and I have known each other for about 16 years
when she and her cofounders of Burning Man came to me and said,
Chip, we want you to help createa board of directors for Burning
Man. Who knew that Burning Man had a
board of directors? I got to know her.
I became her mentor when she became CEO.
And more than anything, I've just really revelled in
(01:03):
understanding the Burning Man culture with her along the way.
When after I sold my company, I decided I was going to leap into
the festival world because it was a curiosity I had not had
much time for. And I went to 36 festivals in 16
countries in 2012 and 2013. I started a website called Fest
(01:24):
300 no longer exists that listedthe 300 best festivals in the
world. So the topic of festivals and
collective effervescence, which is a a term that was created by
Emil Durkheim when he studied religious pilgrimages 110 years
ago, is is intriguing to me and I think you'll find that here.
(01:44):
You'll also find in this, in this episode, not just we're not
going to just talk about BurningMan.
We're going to talk about impermanence and aging and
leadership in midlife and a whole variety of other topics.
Hope you enjoy it. Start with the origin story of,
of our connection, which is about 16 years old.
Maybe is I don't think we've ever met before 2009.
(02:08):
I, I think we met when all of the Burning Man founders
conversed on my office into the after the 2009 Burning Man and
all six of you. And next thing I knew you were
telling me that you wanted to create a board.
And first of all, who knew that there was ACEO like a Burning
Man, which you are the CEO of Burning Man.
(02:30):
And then who even knew that you wanted to create a board and
take a for profit business and turn it into a nonprofit?
Tell us that story. Well, I actually think even at
the time that we came to you, I wasn't even CEO.
We had decided to take our LLC fairly flat structured
leadership of the six of us and we wanted to turn it into a
nonprofit for the long haul. We thought we wanted to bring
(02:53):
people together that were that had skills that we didn't all
have, that had influenced experience that we didn't all
have. Certainly we had that around
radical gatherings and playfulness, but we needed to
find people that were also Burning Man adjacent or
interested. And when one of us saw a news
report that Chip Conley, the famous hotelier in San
(03:16):
Francisco, the job we had been to Burning Man, we were all
like, we're going to go visit him and ask him to join our
board. We all had a person that we kind
of saw, but you were like one ofmine.
I think at Harley's we were bothlike, we want to meet him and so
we all couldn't take who was going to come.
So all six of us came to visit you.
Well, and, and the story, the back story on that was part of
(03:38):
the reason there was a lot of press on this was because I went
to Burning Man wearing probably something like this, which came
from a Burning Man trunk show. People took pictures of me and I
put them up on Facebook. And my head of HR for the
company said to me, you have to take your Facebook photos down.
At that time, back in 2009, companies were trying to manage
(04:02):
how to deal with employees who were doing things that might
affect, you know, the reputationof the company.
But rarely was it the CEO that was having to be toned down.
And I went to a media event thatafter the evening of the day,
the head of HR told me that. And I said at the media event,
you know, what do you guys think?
Should I, should I like, take myphotos down?
(04:24):
And they're like, no, of course not.
And so on Monday, I, I told the head of HR, I'm not taking them
down. And that became press.
So all I can say is that, yeah, I, I'm really appreciate, I
spent 10 years with you on that board.
And what a, what an experience to let's talk about Burning Man
and what it is. Some people don't have any clue
(04:45):
what it is, but it is to me a celebration and a liberation of
the, our, our lives in the default world, you know,
celebrating art and spiritualityand utopian living conditions.
Although, you know, Black Rock City is a, is an alkaline desert
with no living animals. And it's a, it's a global
(05:06):
movement. So maybe tell us a little bit
more about what Burning Man is and and how it's grown into what
it is today. Well, Burning Man started in
1986 on a beach in San Francisco, and then it moved to
a desert in Nevada because too many people had shown up for the
one night beach burn and it was basically Labor Day weekend.
It was a little camp out but thevery original intention for the
(05:30):
group had been to really push people into radical
self-reliance and to be bringingwhat you had on you and to
engage in community and they never really expected to create
a festival. So the normal framework of what?
People think you use the word festival.
I know you. Forbid me to use that word.
We never use the word festival. I use it to describe what we
(05:53):
think it isn't. And we don't sell anything
except ice. We sell.
We have no trash cans. And that came deliberately from
the very beginning when the group came together just to to
engage with each other and play and build art.
And that's really an important aspect of what stayed with
Burning Man. That still is very important.
(06:16):
And then you talk about it's become a global movement.
Well, we really think it's become a global movement because
these principles of community engagement that were really
encouraging, very present, very in the moment when you're on the
pie together, that those are really easy to recognize as
valuable tools to take back out into the world.
(06:36):
If you're feeling generous and connective and even spiritual in
this beautiful, vast desert, whyare we not able to get in touch
with that when we're back home? Why can't we feel more engaged
with our neighbors, with the people we work with?
We believe that creating an environment where we've taken
out distractions and we've not removed cell phones, you can
(06:59):
sometimes get cell service. Oh, back in the early days,
well, first of all, back in the early days, there were no cells,
cells but cell phones. But or there are no certainly no
iPhones when my first year was 1999 and yeah, it was every, you
know, this old burners sometimessay.
And the ones that do you like they're crusty like and I like
it used to be. But you know, yeah, nothing is.
(07:20):
Neither are you nothing. Is the global movement part that
is really still something that people are coming to recognize.
In fact, the regional networks been going on for 25 years, a
little over 25 years at this point.
And that's the most powerful piece.
If you, if we look at what kind of growth is really happening in
Black Rock City, we can't have more than 80,000 people and
(07:43):
we're having around 70,000 the last couple of years.
But out in the world, 100,000 people experience these
different Burning Man events, including 10,000 in South
Africa, like these events that are now 34567 days, they have
anywhere between 500 and and 10,000 people.
And that same culture of not having anything to sell,
(08:07):
bringing people together around,joy, connection, building, art,
playing, all of that is really easy to replicate and it makes
you feel really connected. And you don't really care as
much about politics. You don't even know what
countries people are from. You just you're building for the
(08:27):
sake of creating together. And that's really resonating.
And it continues to resonate outbeyond the United States we're
in. I think it's 34 different
countries that are doing these events, but last year we had 92
different countries purchase tickets.
Wow, yeah. 20% of the people arefrom outside the United States.
And of course, it, it's, this isso everybody understands
(08:50):
there's, there's AD modificationperspective.
There are 10 principles. Tell us what the 10 principles
are. And do you have a favorite?
Well, I can. I like to touch on a couple of
them. I mean, it's really one of the
things that people find fascinating about the 10
principles is there's a bit of adichotomy.
We have radical self-reliance and then we have communal
(09:10):
effort. So we really expect the
individual to come and to show up as an individual and take
care of themselves and not sort of flop around and rely on
everybody else is going to take care of me.
But we also really count on people recognizing that you're
in the context of a community. So, you know, something falls
over in the windstorm. It's not like ha ha, ha, that's
your intent. It's like, oh, how can I help
(09:32):
you hold it up? Some of the ones that are super
unusual, we have a leave No Trace principle.
We have no public trash cans. And that's by design.
And that really allows the individual to think about their
own waste stream. And I remember my first year
getting my box of cereal and recognizing that the plastic
(09:56):
paper, the wax paper, that I could bring that home that big,
but the cardboard box. And so we started realizing you,
the participants themselves willbe more conscious of what
they're bringing if they have totake it away and not just leave
it with us. And that's a transformative
principle. Decommodification is the one
that's the hardest for people tounderstand.
They think it means that we're against money.
(10:18):
We just really feel like you can't buy experience.
We want to take away the commodification and the
transaction. We want people to be authentic.
So you can't buy yourself a bring in experience.
You come and you help build yourcamp.
You help do chores in your camp,or you build your own art, or
(10:41):
you have an idea and you get others to build your art or you
build an art car. The point of these things are to
create ways in which we can worktogether and play together.
And we believe in money and we have a very significant
nonprofit. We have about 140 year round
employees at a $66 million budget.
So we believe in money, but it'sthat we don't believe that in
(11:04):
the course of the Burning Man cultural experience, when we're
gathering, that money is going to create a better connection.
Well, it's the gifting economy, people.
One of the best things to do at Burning Man, by the way, I'm
just seeing my cleavage. For those of you not watching
video, you're just doing the audio.
This is 1 to watch video on thispodcast episode.
(11:27):
Yeah. I just love going with friends
and then and I've been, you know, 14 times and just walking
around or riding my bike around and just going to other camps
and then they feed you. I mean, like it is an
environment in which serendipity, we call it
immediacy in, in as a, as one ofthe, it's the 10th principle.
It's my favorite principle at Burning Men.
(11:49):
It's about actually having serendipity tap you on the
shoulder and and often in the form of a gift.
And sometimes it may not even look like it.
A gift. A gift in that moment.
Well, the gifting is very deliberate.
Early on we saw people bartering.
So we had a a year of barter bars and I still, I was in an
elevator the other day and someone said, oh, I know about
(12:11):
birding man, you guys do bartering, right?
And she was really proud that she knew something, but I was
like, well, before I finished it, she's like, wait, it's
gifting. There eerily is a different
bartering is still a transaction.
It's like, oh, is my massage worth your stuffed animal?
In our case, it's like, you wanta massage?
I got a massage. Want the stuffed animal?
Want the sticker? You want the drink?
(12:31):
I have a gift for you. I mean, I had something to do
with radical self-expression. I had just come out of art
school when I met Larry and he had said to me art, art, art,
art. And I had learned in art school
that there are some people that were inclined towards being
artists, commercial artists, making a living and being
artists. But I had experienced the joy of
(12:54):
just creating without really knowing what I was going to do
with it. And I shared with him that
having gone to Burning Man for two years, the way it really
provokes you to feel like being yourself and whether that's a
costume or being playful, being yourself might being trying to
help being yourself might be having a really big idea and
(13:17):
getting everybody to come do it with you.
So I personally like radical self-expression.
I think it regard. Yeah, that's mine.
I have done that with you. I've been we we've been we were
in the same camp for many, many,many years in a row.
And you said I even had AI had aJesus character who was
radically self expressing himself as as a serendipity
moment. We won't go into that one.
(13:38):
So this is called the midlife chrysalis.
And I'm just curious whether what's your point of view on
people who think that their midlife crisis means that
they're supposed to go to the desert?
And some of the the way that theworld who's never been to
Burning Man sees Burning Man sometimes as just this, you
know, I don't know, bacchanaliannaked, you know, sex fest or
(14:02):
something like that, which is really only a small portion of
Burning Man. Well, you know, so that's a
complicated way. Let me think, first of all, for
me, midlife crisis is kind of funny.
I kind of forgot that it even existed until you invited me and
you're like, well, you know, it's like, what is midlife?
And I was like, oh, am I in midlife?
I guess I am kind of a might be past it.
(14:23):
I certainly remember when I was younger thinking that when you
turn 50, you're going to have a midlife crisis.
That was like a thing. I'm past 50 now.
I haven't really had a midlife crisis.
Thankfully. I've enjoyed my midlife, which I
am going to enjoy talking about with you.
I think Burning Man is, it's funny thing about Burning Man is
(14:45):
the age range in it. And I hear stories about it.
I, they, we have the 20 somethings that are just
starting to re engage with it. I mean, when I, when I was in my
early 30s, we, it certainly havebeen in the desert at this point
for now 30 years. And we've got parents that have
brought kids. We have kids that have brought
parents, we've got 70 year olds and 80 year olds.
(15:08):
And there definitely is a sweet spot between like 35 and 50 of
people that you know are making a change in their life.
And I again, I heard someone theother day telling me she'd never
been and she thought it was timeto go.
And I was like, oh, why? And she said, well, I've just
gone through a big change in my life and I think it might be the
place for me to to re engage andfeel joyful again.
(15:31):
And here we've got this midlife crisis concept.
And I think there are some people that do come to Burning
Man to get their ya Yas out. Certainly we do see people who
have changed their work status or gotten divorced or lost a
partner. It makes you playful, it makes
you connect, It gives you hope. Maybe the crisis, the way we
(15:53):
societally look at this, is wrong.
Maybe it's a transformational era.
Yes, you're liquefying an identity.
Identity, in fact, people have Playa names, so you can sort of
go to Burning Man and be whoeverthe hell you want to be.
And for many people that's quiteliberating.
In fact, I think that's why a lot of, you know, people from
(16:14):
Silicon Valley have enjoyed it and it's known as a, a, a place
that a lot of people from Silicon Valley go.
In the early days, it was the designers and the engineers and,
and over time it was the venturecapitalist and a lot of other
people. But it the, the idea that you
can sort of liberate yourself ina chrysalis kind of fashion,
such that on the other side of this, you feel like you've gone
(16:36):
through the gloom of the chrysalis and you can be a
butterfly. And I mean, tell, talk a little
bit more about that. And, and maybe let's talk about
your chrysalis. And is there is there a time in
your midlife where you have had a a truly transitional or
transformational experience thatled you to becoming wiser as a
(16:58):
result of it? I've lost a parent 15 years ago
and then I lost my aunt and I was her executor.
And I think at that point, and that was about, that was about
five years ago. And to me, those were pretty
important kind of midlife experiences.
(17:19):
I didn't lose anybody important when I was in my 20s or 30s.
I definitely lost these very close people when I was in my
50s. I think it was it parallels that
point where you're asking yourself, have you made the
accomplishments? Have you reached the goals that
you wanted to reach? And in the case of both of them,
and at least with my aunt in particular, I went through her
(17:40):
belongings and helped sort out her belongings.
And I thought about all the stories that each of these
things had. She'd already downsized a bit,
but she had told me stories about different things.
And it really struck me how easyit is to accumulate things, and
that while we're accumulating the things, they feel so
important and they represent stories, that they represent how
(18:01):
we see ourselves. And then when we're gone, we've
left behind all these things. And it was pretty
transformational for me to have taken in some of my dad's things
and when my mom was downsizing and she's still alive, taking in
her things and having my own things.
And the degree to which I've accumulated some things that
mean something to me and some things that don't mean something
(18:23):
to me. And it's really made me think a
lot about culture and myself andfamily history and have for sure
changed the way in which I perceive the accumulation of
things. I think a lot about am I leaving
(18:43):
things behind that need tags on them to tell people what they
meant to me? Should I be videotaping things?
Like, I think about my story andI think the things that I've
looked at from my aunt, I, I sawher story, but it wasn't written
anywhere. And I was like, she didn't have
any children. I don't have any children, Chip.
You know, I think for me, a lot of what I've thought about with
(19:09):
my aunt and my father and even the work I've been doing with
Burning Man, but really from those two positions was by not
having children. Did I make a decision to allow
my story to be lost or in what ways do I want my story to be
held and remembered? And it particularly came across
with my both my aunt and my father were accomplished in
(19:31):
different ways. My father was accomplished as a
business person and my aunt was kind of like a playful renegade
that traveled the world. And I have both of my on my mom
and my dad's side. There's no cousins.
They 1 married and never had children.
The other one married a couple of times and never had children.
One never married. So I I have looked at my aunts
(19:54):
and uncles as really super influential with who I am and
have built a life for myself where I'm influential in that
particular way. But really came to head when I
was looking at all my aunts things and I thought, wow, what
is the what are the Talisman? What are the stories?
What are the pieces that I. Want to have left behind to tell
(20:17):
my story? I'll show you one of mine.
For. Those of you who haven't seen
the video, I just held up a a framed certificate, actually a
piece of art actually, and it actually has an image of me in
what I'm exactly wearing right now and it's a beautiful piece
(20:40):
of art. Saying thanks from Larry and the
team. We'll talk about Larry, who
Larry is in a minute 4 by 10 years of service to Burning Man
and the ability to have two tickets to Burning Man the rest
of my life. You know, that's unusual and
that's something, you know, I soimportant as we get older, like
(21:02):
experiences are so much more important than the material
things. And we'll I want to come back to
the topic of impermanence in a little while, but let's talk
about your relationship with Larry.
Larry was like your modern elderon some level.
He who is Larry and and how did you relate to him?
What kind of wisdom did you learn from this this this modern
(21:23):
elder named Larry Harvey? Well, Larry was the original
person who, with his friend Jerry James, built the first man
and took it to the Baker Beach and burned it on the summer
solstice. He was in his 30s at the time
and was grieving his humanity, alost love, being adopted a whole
(21:43):
lot of things and felt that thatcreative act was going to help
him heal and it did brought a lot of people around him.
That was in 1986. I met him in 1990, early late
1996, in the fall of 1986. He was the philosophical leader
(22:06):
of Burning Man. He was self-taught, well read,
studied Victorian literature, urban design, psychology, was a
big fan of Freud. You know, he was always, he was
searching for the answers of ourhumanity and our connection with
one another. I met him and he became my
(22:28):
sweetheart. We were sweethearts for five
years. That put me right in the middle
of all of this deeply. It was like an internship.
Oh my God, this is like Bill Clinton, like sleeping with the
intern. I'm sorry.
I'm sorry. What did you learn from him?
Gosh, he taught. He taught so much to so many in
(22:49):
just his way of thinking. I learned a lot about humanity
in general, the way he studied humans.
It was. That's why I saw him really as a
philosopher. I think on some days he was an
amateur psychologist. Oh, for sure.
For sure, I think I learned about perseverance.
(23:10):
I had perseverance, but it beingwith him professionally and
personally allowed that to thrive.
Where the world often has reasons why something might not
work, he saw he had just an imagination of things that could
work. For me personally, it was really
exciting to play in a realm of possibility and not in a realm
(23:34):
of limitation. And that was one of the driving
forces for many of us around Burning Man is all the
possibilities in play and creation and architecture of
human, you know, bringing peopletogether in humanity.
I mean, he was so funny. He was such a quirky person.
(23:54):
I learned about, I think I learned a lot about compassion.
You know, he had so many wide variety of experiences.
I'd had a fairly, I'd had a lot of experiences, but my, you
know, upbringing was fairly normal.
And he had had wide experiences and he'd been to different
places with different people in ways that gave him a lot of
(24:16):
compassion. And I definitely learned through
him that we all are coming from a different place, that some of
us are very fortunate, some people aren't as fortunate.
I don't know whether he was morepatient than me.
I think some days he was more patient than me and some days he
was not. I think both of you are rather
(24:37):
impatient, but I, I sort of likethat about you.
I'm impatient as well, my dear. You have tenacity and grace, You
really do. I mean, to be the CEO of an
organization like Burning Man does actually take some patience
with people and with the craziness of that community.
What is some wisdom you've learned over the How many years
have you been CEO now? 20/13/2014 That was the range.
(25:01):
It's about 11 or 12 years. So what would you say is a piece
of wisdom that Marian Goodell has learned about leadership in
the community of Burning Man as the CEO?
Well, I think you're right aboutthe patients.
One, that's kind of funny. I mean, I think I was raised in
a household where my dad was pretty impatient.
(25:21):
And so I never really saw impatience as a problem.
It was a motivator. It was time to go to church, get
in the car. But I think with Burning Man,
the fact that we were building acommunity and we're building
volunteer groups, and so I know that I had to learn more
patients that I came into with it.
(25:42):
I've had to learn. I think self reflection is one
of the more interesting ones. I definitely wasn't raised in a
household. We were told to say I'm sorry,
you know, I'm sorry I hit my sister.
My dad would be like your. Sister Martha.
Well, I have three sisters and we would, we would wrestle like
boys sometimes. And we were supposed to not just
say I'm sorry, but we had to sayI'm sorry, sister dear.
(26:04):
You were ladies. Well, because he really felt
like family was deeply importantand to damage that tie in any
way was really something he wanted to reverse.
But the thing I don't know that that that did, that Burning Man
did, there wasn't any opportunity for his real self
reflection. Like you say, I'm sorry, but
(26:24):
what is there in the same familyenvironment, the chance to sort
of recognize, oh, what is it youdo that are affecting others?
But I think Burning Man, I mean,I think that's the probably the
number one lesson that Burning Man and being a leader in
Burning Man has given me is how important self reflection is to
be a good leader. But really to be a good
community member, to listen to the cues of the community around
(26:46):
you, to determine what's important for your membership in
the community. If you want to feel that feeling
of belonging in community, it comes with self reflection.
You've got to figure out what you want from the community and
what you're willing to do to be in the community and how you
want to show up. And I think I've learned so much
about how to show up. When I became the CEO, I was
(27:13):
ready on some levels, but the fastest work I had to do was
learning to be less self-defensedefensive and to be more self
reflective and to listen to feedback, personal feedback,
faster. We, we had some sessions, you
and I had a number of one on ones where I really appreciated
how open you were with me. And there were times I can see
(27:36):
you and it's hard to be in your role and have you, you know,
the, all these people on the sort of Silicon Valley wealth
side and then all these sort of anarchists on the side and the
politics of it. You know, I, I'll never forget
one day where I had, I think lunch with Grover Norquist from
the Committee for growth, which is, which is very, very, very
(27:59):
conservative, and then had dinner with Dennis Kucinich,
very much very, very progressive.
And so the reality is there's a,the community is much broader
than a lot of people think. And therefore your, you had
stakeholders when you became CEOof your other five founders.
(28:19):
You had the stakeholders of the board, you had the stakeholders
of your employees, you had the stakeholders of the community to
Gerlock and, and the, and the stakeholders of all of the
donors, all of the people who come.
I mean, my God, everybody was shouting at you.
How are you? How did you survive that?
(28:40):
No, I think I don't. I don't know where I got my
resilience from. Chip I I definitely credit my
parents with giving me a solid upbringing and myself.
Confidence certainly came from that.
And I think I've really believedin the values of what Burning
Man means. And I definitely believe that my
(29:03):
close relationship with Larry and then working alongside the
founders together, you know, we,I first met them in 1996.
So coming up on 30 years, I first went to Burning Man 30
years ago. There aren't a lot of people
that worked that closely alongside basically total
strangers, not friends that found a way to, because the
(29:24):
mission was bigger than themselves, stay on track when
they gave me that responsibility, which was even
heightened even more when Larry passed away.
I, I look for the authentic reason that I'm here for and the
duty that I've bought into and the service that I'm here to do.
You know, it's the most, I mean,it's, I was raised by a Reagan
(29:46):
Republican, capitalist, Irish Catholic, you know, all the Anne
Randian things. And Burning Man does look and
show up like it's one particularthing.
And I think part of what I'm really, really committed to is
the way in which it is a place where people of all types can
find something in themselves that's that that is looking for
(30:08):
belonging and is authentic. That's allowed me to really take
in a lot of criticism either personally or about Burning Man.
There's always someone with an opinion, always some with
opinion. Like you said, it's donors and
it's board members, it's community members, it's staff
members, it's politicians. You know, when we make a small
mistake, we definitely hear it from elected officials.
(30:31):
And I go to Washington, DC, and I sit with people and they might
be Republicans and they might beDemocrats.
And I've got people patting me on the back on both sides.
Oh, you did a great job cleaningthings up.
Oh, you did a great job, you know, running your business
well. Oh, you did a great job managing
local politics. You know, there's always
something. And I, I don't know, I felt like
(30:51):
I was built for it, Chip. And how much longer are you
going to be doing that, that CEOthing?
Any idea? Well, I think the, really the
point when I joined and took therole was the, the whole point of
my role was to set the structureup for the longer term for me
not to be sitting here doing this.
(31:12):
I don't get to sell out. I don't get to take my stocks
and sell them. And then, you know, I've got a
tiny little package to, to go away with.
So that's the friction in the system.
Like if you're not going to do abuyout, what makes you want to
go? What makes me want to leave is
not really leave entirely, but is to change the way in which I
(31:33):
function so that I can take all of these relationships I've
built over the years. I'm definitely the one with the
biggest network in the whole organization and that that means
fundraising, that means talks. I'm a good storyteller.
That's the stuff that I'd like to be spending my time with.
So I've been spending the last two years and I'm definitely at
(31:55):
a really great birthing stage for storyline around the
architecture of the organizationbecause it's really interesting
and delicate. I'm not just CEO, but I'm a
founder CEO. So, so many things come up to me
and people think they need my answers when my work right now
is what are the structures that we can implement here?
(32:17):
To have the organization be hierarchical necessarily at this
size, but to also be engaging and collaborative and flat and
that the decision making that isso cultural and have other
points for input. Yes.
I don't know how much longer you'll see me doing this.
I think you'll see me in my leadership position for a long
(32:38):
time. I'd like it to be a little
invisible. I'd like to be able to hand off
the administrative work sooner rather than later.
You know, it's, it's, it's not anormal CEO spot.
I'd, I think that it, I think we've got rising stars in the
organization and I think giving people a chance to run things
(33:00):
and, and spread their wings administratively is, is my goal.
And I'd love to move people intotheir comfort zones as soon as
they're ready. A.
Few years ago there was a an acquisition of Fly Ranch.
Can you explain to people what that is and what, how it relates
to the long term of Burning Man?Because for those who don't know
(33:21):
it, the the Burning Man event that happens in the desert
happens on federal land. Also BLM, not not Black Lives
Matter, but Bureau of Land Management.
So therefore there's a lot of bureaucracy into attached to it.
So why did it make sense to buy the Fly Ranch?
(33:41):
And what is Fly Ranch? Well, Fly Ranch is 3400 acres of
land north of the town of Garlack, Nevada, which is near
the Black Rock Desert, which is the home of Burning Man.
It was important to buy the property for a number of
reasons. One is we we have storage
property in the area and this was not intended to be that.
(34:03):
This property was really intended to overtime do what it
has been doing, which is become a platform for innovation and
growth and storytelling about how people can gather together
in smaller groups. So we've been using that
property for that. We are now getting permits to
have larger groups, but to do itin not just a typical format but
(34:25):
using the opportunity to have conversations around things like
sustainability, like water management, around food
production. The groups that are mostly doing
these gatherings have been Burners Without Borders.
So some of what they talk about are solar and tools that they
(34:47):
use in disaster relief. So folks come together several
times a year. They're not all listening to art
cars and putting up art. They're actually coming together
and talking about ideas that solve different problems out in
our world. Practical.
These are more like practical camp outs, but it's set on 3200
acres where there's a hot springnearby, a big wide open Playa,
(35:10):
and now there's art. So over the last couple of years
we take art, large art from the Burning Man event.
And so it's a contemplative place.
It's a place where you're in nature, It's a place where you
can gather together. And we're continuing to grow
that slowly so that we have opportunities for the public to
come and enjoy it. We'd like to have the events get
(35:32):
a bit bigger and it's a long term place.
If Black Rock City can't happen on the Black Rock Desert for
whatever reason with the government fly is that home?
And you were a big supporter. You were the first person who
saw the vision. And you said, I want to get
behind it. And that started what is now a
really very important piece of property for us.
(35:53):
I mean, they're they're they're right now they are taking waste
from the Burning Man event that is composted.
They take it to Reno and the next cycle of that same waste
from the Burning Man event and composting comes back and is
actually helping them plant for food and harvesting food on this
property. And these are people that some
(36:13):
of them know how to do this and some people don't.
So we're also teaching people these different skills that you
can be using in different aspects of our life.
And it's not just rural, but we can use these in in with urban
problems. Yeah, it it is.
Whereas Black Rock City is a perched alkaline desert.
It and it you and you get, as itwas very well publicized 2 years
(36:38):
ago, you get the rains and then and then the actual desert just
like cakes on to your feet. I mean, like you can't move
around. I mean, it's a very, it's hot
and it's, you have all the same weather 10 miles away, but it's
a series of these Hot Springs and hot pools.
And my my, my funny story is that I was part of a group that
(37:00):
was AI think it was a like some kind of event that I I was
invited to and two. 1000. And nine, so it's that same year
actually. And I it was maybe a potential
donor event and things like that.
And so they bust us over and it was very lucky to be there.
And I'd never been there and I didn't really didn't know much
about it The moment we got there.
(37:21):
I, I'm a hot spring spring slut.And so I just immediately knew
there was a hot spring's pool. I took off all my clothes and I
went, it's got this mud, it's got this volcanic mud and, and I
just caked my body and I didn't care about the drinks and the
food and the, the Foo Foo party over there.
I was like, I'm going over here.And it was one of my rituals.
(37:42):
And, and, you know, I, I, I justthink it's beautiful.
And what I love about it is it gives the intimacy and, and it's
also, it's the feminine to the masculine to me.
Black Rock City is very masculine and hard and harsh
and, and this is robustly generative.
You know, it's wet and beautifuland lots of birds and wild
(38:05):
horses and it's, it's nature. It, it's like, it's so
shockingly different 10 miles away.
So I don't know. It's an Oasis, Yeah.
I mean, some people we don't. There aren't really any tours
during Black Rock City because it's a little distracting for
people to leave. But I think that's the magic of
it is to come there offseason and really enjoy the desert.
(38:27):
You know, it's the one of the places that has the most dark
skies in the country. So a camp out on the Black Rock
Desert, a camp out on fly, you can see the Milky Way stronger
than I ever see the Milky Way, even in Ohio and Michigan, you
know, which is where I was raised.
So there's a lot of aspects to coming out and being in an area
like that. And you know, when nature is a
(38:48):
little harsher, it gives you more reason to contemplate your
existence and how you interact with nature.
So we just think that this pieceof property is a really great
place to bring our culture, bring ourselves, be in nature,
connect together, prototype building, you know, better
solutions. So I would recommend everybody
(39:10):
go to the Fly Ranch, but but theBurning Man website, but also
the Fly Ranch website. And we'll make sure that that's
in the, the show notes. So this, this podcast will be
coming out about a month and a half before Burning Man.
And so let's say that someone who's coming to Burning Man this
year, a virgin who's never been to Burning Man before is going
(39:31):
or, or someone who is considering coming to Burning
Man in the future. What would be 3 pieces of advice
or tips the CEO Marian Goodell of Burning Man would give to a
virgin? Well, it's funny, it's changed
over the years for sure. More recently, the first thing
people ask, and it's very commonof all ages.
(39:52):
I don't know who to camp with. I don't have a camp.
And that just cracks me up because I first, the first time
I came, I came with four people.And the second time I came, I
think there were six of us. And I don't think you need a
camp. I think you, if you know how to
camp, then you come and you camp.
I would say another thing is I you have to come without a lot
(40:16):
of expectations and you'll be pleasantly surprised.
You want to bring your best self.
And figure that the whole point of being there is connecting
with people. And then the third thing might
be, I would say, seek out engagement that you've never had
(40:39):
before. Seek out the things that that
you're not necessarily afraid of, but things that aren't
comfortable. Become a beginner at something,
you know, like make a fool of yourself, do it, but do it with
other people who are doing the same.
What are you? So gosh, there's so much I could
ask you, but I actually want to talk about something about
(41:00):
impermanence because one of the things that about Burning Man
that is, I just think revelatoryfor people the first time they
come, yes, it's you know, at night time with all the colors
and everything else. It's I mean, it's just
remarkable the amount of art, how many art pieces are there's,
there's both the informal art which people are just making all
the time, but there's a number of pieces of art on the Playa.
(41:23):
How many pieces typically in a year we.
Place over 400 pieces, usually 430, so between 400 and 450.
So that's anybody who wants likea spot on the ground.
We fund usually $1.5 million in art, so that's usually around 70
pieces. So, you know, we're helping
(41:44):
stimulate the art in the community, but there's a very
significant number of art piecesout there.
The other kind of art trip that I love is art cars.
And art cars can go back to the hometown.
They can be in the July 4th parade.
They can be in the Historical Day parade.
I've seen them in Houston. Houston has their art car parade
and Oh my God, it's a it's, it'sso much fun to just see a bunch
(42:05):
of Burning Man art cars in Houston.
So. Houston Art Car Parade is over
the top. It is so fun and playful.
So the impermanence really comesfrom the fact that on Saturday
night you burn a huge effigy, the man, and then on Sunday
night you burn the temple. Can you explain the the ritual
(42:29):
associated with both of those and the energy on a Saturday
night of burning the man and Sunday night burnt the burning
of the temple. And then just maybe muse on the
fact that is this impermanence, this, you know, a real
reflection on our lives, you know, the idea of aging and
(42:51):
legacy and the idea that impermanence is, is sort of
woven into the human experience.I think that's what a lot of
people actually come away with it from Burning Man, that they
don't realize that they're goingto get from it.
The people think all the art burns.
All the art doesn't burn. I don't think we even have seven
(43:12):
major burns anymore. The man does burn on Saturday
night. Used to burn on Sunday before
Labor Day. Now it burns on Saturday because
on Sunday is the temple. The man is very artful.
The base of the man is differentfrom every every year.
That's considered the biggest celebration of the gathering.
And then obviously very much so the impermanence of being there.
(43:35):
You've played, you've circulated, you've done these
things. And then the man burns.
And then you're sort of like, now what do I do?
I go home. But you realize that whole magic
as that's done. And it's up to you what you're
going to do with that magic and how you're going to take that
with you because the man's gone.And in fact, the man is a beacon
(43:56):
of location. And if you're not careful,
careful, that's the night you'llmost likely get lost as you're
wandering around. Wait, wait, wait, where was I?
So that's also part of the impermanence.
It's like, OK, I knew where I was for days, and now I don't
know where I am. And the man is burned.
And now what do I do? And that's a really fascinating
way to put yourself into the thezeitgeist of Burning Man is
(44:19):
like, OK, now I'm going to move on.
Now I'm going to go home. Now I'm going to put everything
away. What am I going to do with it?
The temple, it is like a gentle space to hold for people.
Not everybody stays for the temple.
More than 2/3 of the community usually stays for the temple.
Everybody almost somehow engageswith the community.
(44:39):
It's with it when they're there.It's not an easy place to go
into. It's become the place that is
the most revered. It's a place that people are
quiet in. They honor those they've lost.
There's usually people put up stories about their loved ones,
(45:00):
cats, dogs, horses, husbands, wives, people of all ages and
all types and write something onthe temple, tell stories.
So it's really holding space. It's hold space for grief.
But many people also feel that it's also holding space for joy
because there is joy in the release from death and the loss.
There is letting go. So the temple is this.
(45:22):
It's a place that holds space for our ourselves and our souls
and, and loss and future. So when we burn the temple on
Sunday night, that really is theDe no ma.
There's the powerful bam of the man and there's it's ruckus and
it's loud and there's music and there's fireworks and then
there's the burning of the temple.
(45:43):
And when that burns, everybody around it is quiet.
You know, you barely can hear a thing and you hear the crackling
of the fire. You can't really hear the
crackling of the fire for the man burned because the music is
so loud, but you hear the crackling of the fire.
And those rituals are so powerfully important for Burning
Man. Like, I can't even comprehend
(46:05):
that. The way in which the culture is
held in our hearts and the way that we leave with it.
I mean, I love festivals. I've been to Coachella a number
of times. I've been to Bonnaroo, which I
found super fun outside lands inSan Francisco.
Aside from the big headliner on the last night, you know there's
no real ritual to it. There's no there's nothing that
(46:27):
has you stop and reflect on yourexperience and why you've been
there and why you're there. In general.
It's really hard not to go to the Man Burn or to the Temple
Burn and not stare quietly at the fire for just a minute and
think, why am I here or thank you or wow, or what joy.
(46:48):
And those rituals, either one ofthose two rituals are very
deliberate. And for us to hold the space for
them and protect them. The ritual of being quiet when
the temple burns, that the community started that, I mean,
we didn't write, we don't send things around, say don't talk,
don't sing. That was the thing to do.
(47:09):
The burning of either of these two beautiful structures, these
solemn places, these majestic places, sets us back.
And to think it's all here for ashort period of time.
There's a gentleman named Melodoma Somay who passed away
recently as an African scholar. And he says the difference
(47:29):
between routine, which is our normal life, and ritual is in a
ritual you are willing to be altered.
And my sense is, you know, of course, Burning Man, there's
lots to talk about altered states, but you could.
The first time I ever went to Burning Man, I was completely
sober. No alcohol, no drugs, nothing.
And I can tell you that you can have an altering experience
(47:52):
without doing anything, you know, to, to change your state
because the the root the ritual of Burning Man, not just these
two experiences on Saturday and Sunday night, but there's
rituals throughout the day. There's even a schedule you get
that says here's all the things that are happening all day long
all over Black Rock City. And so many of them are, are
ritualistic and, and in very, you know, wonderful ways.
(48:16):
But so here's a here's a thoughtful, deep question.
You were going to say something.Well I was just going to say I
didn't really realize. I was raised Catholic so I
understood ritual and we went tochurch every Sunday.
I didn't really understand the power of the ritual of Burning
Man, either the Man Burn or the event itself or the temple,
until the pandemic when we had to stop and the amount of grief
(48:38):
that people had for not going and I couldn't figure it out.
At first I was just sort of like, well, just go play in your
own places. But I really came to understand
that ritual that if you, if something really means something
to you, that the ritual itself is feeding you the actual
ritual. So it might be stormy one year
at Burning Man, it might be dusty, it might be hot.
(48:59):
But the fact that you put yourself together and you came
up with your ideas and you're brought yourself there to play,
but that ritual is really affirming.
It makes us, I think it makes mefeel timeless and ageless to
have a ritual that you're reallyfond of.
It's like, oh OK, I'm in it. Here's my hardest question.
You're impermanent. I'm impermanent.
(49:20):
Someday people will go to the burn.
They'll go to the temple. There'll be a photograph of you
there. You've passed.
What do you want people to say about you?
What do you want to be written about?
You. What's the what's the Marian
Goodell story, briefly, that might actually be emblazoned?
(49:42):
I, I knew you were going to ask me this and I honestly have
spent so little time really thinking about that.
I had enough of a hard time to think about a headstone for my
aunt and, and we, my sisters andI are still deliberating on it
because she doesn't really have a headstone.
She's like in a mausoleum and New Orleans like they do, I
(50:03):
think. Renegade aunt.
I like that. Yes, renegade aunt OK, one of
your sisters has been to MEA, the modern Elder Academy and
many of your MEA, many of your Burning Man leaders and
employees have come and we do a lot of rituals.
(50:24):
And Christine Sperber, one of myCo founders and I were lucky
enough last year to be able to come to your headquarters in in
San Francisco to be able to helplead a leadership retreat.
You know what's? Do you have any impressions on
MEA and why it exists and why it's needed?
Well, I'm fascinated. I've known you long enough to
(50:46):
see you have some really interesting journeys and your
journeys are always around from when I first met you.
Ways for people to connect to themselves, connect to others
and to lift up. And I thought when you went into
this modern elder concept, at first I didn't quite understand
(51:07):
it. And then I really understood it.
And I certainly understood it through the eyes of the Co
workers and the leaders and my sister in There's a point in
your life when you may not have reached where you wanted to go
or you're trying to get to whereyou've wanted to go.
And some people may be really hard on themselves and may feel
that they've not reached it. But you seem to bring people a
(51:29):
framework for them to connect with what they have accomplished
and how they can still accomplish things and what kind
of possibilities and how to build more possibility.
And that age is not, it's a number, you know, the state of
mind of how you are and how you show up.
My grandfather died at 90 and hewas going to work.
(51:49):
He was his wife had made him breakfast and he had a heart
attack at 90. I didn't.
There was no retirement in my history.
My my dad retired and got bored and went back to work for the
Buffalo Symphony Orchestra. I made a dollar.
His compensation was a dollar because he didn't need the
money, but he wanted the sense of purpose to be doing it.
I was reading a book by Carl De Rossi, the founder of the birth
(52:13):
control pill. And the book is a series of
essays and he wrote them when hewas 62 or 63 or he wrote the
book and he said that was the that was the beginning.
He wrote the book in his 90s buttold about his 60s.
He wrote the this some chapters to this and he said the 60s were
when you turn in his early 60s, they're in the most inspiring
for him. And I've come to realize what
(52:36):
you've been doing is helping. It's great to be in your 20s and
30s and be like rah, rah, rah. I can do it all.
But what about where is the nurturing for the 40's, the 50s
and 60s to recognize we're not done, we're not out to pasture.
We have so much to give. We have wisdom, we have
storytelling. We might even have new ideas
(52:58):
that haven't been sparked yet bygiving.
But giving us an access to otherpeople from other cultures,
other walks of life, other ages that, that collaboration and
that, that bringing of the wisdom together will feed us and
feed others. We're so in silos.
But I, I love what modern elder is doing and how you're, I mean,
(53:22):
it really opened me up. I've got so many staff members
that are like, OK, when do I getto be the one that goes?
Because you guys have really helped people, inspire them to
think of what their self worth is at a different point in life
and to give them openings to make the change or take a new
journey if they want to. You use the word wisdom.
And my last question is, you know, over the course of our
(53:45):
lives, if we're if we're, if we're good at it, we learn our
lessons along the way and we metabolize life experience into
wisdom. If if someone came to you and
said, I want to tap into your wisdom, Marian, next week, let's
have some coffee or tea. And they said I want you to give
(54:05):
me a wisdom bumper sticker. Not it, not physically, but just
a thought, A thought that is based upon an origin story.
What is a piece of wisdom that feels like it's got Marion's
fingerprints, wisdom fingerprints all over it?
I probably have two. I would say that one is live
(54:27):
with minimal regrets and the other one is take the road less
traveled. And I think the one that is
easier to express in ways that even more people can grab on to
is take the road less traveled. I remember when I was younger,
my mother reading a book, I think there's a Robert Frost
poem about I took the road and apath less traveled and has made
(54:50):
all the difference. And I guess I get really kind of
choked up saying that because I made a lot of decisions along
the way that I'm so proud of. I didn't deliberately not get
married, but I didn't pursue it at the same time my friends
were, or they were just anxious for it or they're anxious for
children. I chose at that.
I knew at that point I had a choice.
(55:12):
And each time I made those choices, you know, I didn't have
any other Burning Man had no money to pay us our first years.
I lived off my savings and I hadfriends that were going to work
for tech companies that, you know, sold their stocks
eventually and live in big houses now.
But each of these times I know that I was choosing a road less
traveled and it has made all thedifference.
(55:35):
It has, you have. I hope you will write a book
someday. You have a lot of stories to
tell. And most importantly, you're
just. You're somebody I just love
deeply. I love you.
You've been a great mentor to me, Chip.
You do exemplify so many of the different things we've talked
about today. You definitely gave me chance
(55:57):
for self reflection. You were a great listener.
You made it really possible for me to come and check in with
you. I admired your success in the
world and you pointed out alwaysthe successes that we were
having. And so your mentorship for all
so many people, your capacity amazes me.
(56:18):
So I'm very grateful, I'm very grateful to know you and thank
you for inviting me to come havea chat with you.
Yes, well and we're going to getyou to to MBA one day.
Absolutely would like to be an MBA.
I've heard of some of the thingsthat you all do.
I've heard about the bread ritual, which I hear is
fabulous. My sister loved that.
You guys are doing great things.You're doing great work.
(56:40):
Thanks for being with us. Thank you.
Thank you for watching the Midlife Chrysalis Podcast.
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