June 11, 2025 • 45 mins
At 40, Hoda Kotb’s world fell apart—cancer, divorce, and the dream of having children slipping away. But what came next wasn’t the end. It was a beginning.
In this amazing episode, Hoda opens up about surviving breast cancer, finding the courage to adopt at 52, and learning that her 50s would become the most meaningful years of her life. She shares raw moments, unexpected joy, and the wisdom that only comes from starting over.
If you're navigating change or wondering if it's too late to begin again, this episode will speak straight to your heart. Subscribe to Midlife Chrysalis and join our community for more stories that prove the second half of life can be the best half.
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
01:23 Growing Up in an Immigrant Family
03:25 Childhood in Nigeria and Egypt
05:49 Rejection, Resilience, and Unexpected Opportunities
08:27 A Tumultuous Early 40s: Marriage, Cancer & Change
14:14 Aging On-Air and Thriving in Her 50s
17:26 Adoption at 52 and the Joy of Motherhood
23:32 Love & Relationships Later in Life
28:59 Stepping Away from the Today Show
32:51 Starting a New Business at 60
34:39 Gratitude for Her Mom
36:22 Lessons from Her 60s: Be a Beginner Again
41:26 Hoda’s Wisdom Bumper Sticker
44:05 Closing Reflections
Learn more about MEA at https://www.meawisdom.com/
#HodaKotb #MidlifeChrysalis #WomenOver50 #BreastCancerSurvivor #MidlifeTransformation #ReinventionAfter50 #AdoptionStory #LifeAfterCancer #StartingOverAt50 #InspirationalWomen #PersonalGrowthJourney #LateBloomerSuccess #CareerChangeAfter50 #FindingPurposeInMidlife #NeverTooLate
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Never, ever, ever let anyone tell you what the odds are.
I feel like my whole life was kind of bonding and severing.
It's like you meet, you go, you move, you know, And I did spend
all of high school in one spot, but then it was college and then
it was going from station to station.
Every time I got a gig, I was like, Oh my God, they chose me.
Almost like shocked and grateful.
(00:21):
Like if someone had said to me, Chip, when I was, you know, a
kid or 18, all your blessings are coming in your 50s, I would
have like, jumped off a Cliff. I would have been pissed.
But all my blessings didn't comein my 50s.
Welcome to the Midlife Chrysalispodcast with Chip Conley.
Hi, it's Chip Conley and it's the Midlife Chrysalis with Hoda
(00:43):
Kotbe on this episode. It was a little nerve racking to
know that I was going to be interviewing one of the world's
leading experts at doing interviews, Hoda, who used to be
the the host on the Today Show. But she's somebody I've gotten
to know and gotten to know deeply.
And I think you'll see a side ofher and her midlife renaissance.
(01:06):
And that really started after a very difficult early 40s in her
life. And she, like me, said her 50s
was her favorite decade and she's turned 60 last summer.
So I hope you enjoy the episode.I, I found it pretty inspiring
and I hope you do too, Hoda. Let's talk about the fact that
you grew, You grew up in Norman,OK?
(01:27):
Or at least you were born there.What was that like?
Well, you know what's funny is my parents were immigrants from
Egypt and they came and I don't really remember anything beyond
the fact that we were, they wereassimilators on by every single
definition of the word, they were assimilators.
So I think it was we didn't realize.
(01:49):
My parents raised us not to realize there were differences.
They were like basically the theory was there are no
contradictions. Look around, everybody comes
from somewhere, everyone is kindof the same.
And that was that whole generation ship of people who
assimilated. That's what that was.
And so for my folks, when they came here, they were that way
too. So we always knew that if we
(02:14):
were hard workers and we did things the right way, we could
make it in this world. And I think that's kind of, that
was kind of their cornerstone. That was kind of their
beginning. And I feel like that helped us
so much because I'll tell you a little story about my dad passed
when I was in college. And you know, in his desk we
(02:35):
found a letter. And the letter said from my dad
to the Dean at WVU, where we moved later, it said, dear Dean,
so and so my name is Doctor Copy.
I would like to be brought up toscale with the other teachers
here at WBU. And you know, my pay scale is
lower and I have a doctorate degree, etcetera, etcetera.
And he wrote back, dear Doctor Copy, this is all you'll ever
(02:56):
make at WBU. We moved from Morgantown shortly
after that. Now my dad didn't say, look, you
got to be better. You got to be this, you got to
be that. He didn't.
He basically just said, look, you can, you know, he never
brought it up. So we didn't have that bug in
our head that was like, I'm not getting the job because of this,
(03:16):
I'm not getting the job because of that, or I didn't get that
big. It had nothing to do with it.
So he was very clear on like work hard, a door will open so.
You ended up spending some of your childhood, if I'm not
mistaken, in, in Egypt and in Nigeria.
Is that also true? Yeah, my dad got a job in
(03:39):
Nigeria teaching petroleum engineering.
So we went, I was there in like 4th grade, 3rd, 4th grade and we
were there for year. And it was really like alarming
for us. My brother, sister and I arrived
in Nigeria and we, we lived in abad and I remember getting into
the classroom and there was thisteacher and I was sitting in
(04:00):
class and I was kind of nervous because I didn't know what was
going on. Everyone was in uniforms and it
was an outdoor class and all the, the young men, boys in my
class had like 3 like almost like scars.
And I was looking around and everyone was different.
I don't know what to make of it.And a kid raised his hand in the
class. He said teacher.
(04:21):
The teacher pointed him and he goes, why does the word business
look like it's pronounced buzzness?
And I was like, must be US. The teacher walked over to him
and I remember because he used to erase the board with his
chalk with his hand. So we had chalk on his hand.
He took the kids by the short collar and just started smacking
him. I saw, I remember seeing chalk
dust. And he goes, don't say things
(04:42):
you don't understand. And I remembered looking at this
kid and looking at this teacher and thinking to myself, like, Oh
my God, I can't believe what's going on here.
And so that was an environment we weren't used to, you know, we
weren't used to any of it. And it was kind of scary, quite
frankly. But you know, as we went
(05:02):
through, like I used to think ifanyone touches my brother, I
knew what my brother screams outof, like for many years.
So I was like, if I could hear his classroom, I was like, I
know my brother's scream if something happens there.
It was an adjustment. But we were always kind of
moving and adjusting. I went to Egypt after college.
I didn't have a job, and I kind of went just because I didn't
have a plan and I wanted to get to know my relatives.
(05:26):
And in the summers, we went every summer.
Like for us, going to Egypt was like going to grandma's house.
It wasn't something that was so far-flung.
My parents showed us that the world was tiny.
It was small. And if you had, you know,
several $100, you could go to any of these really cool and
interesting places. So they they kept it tight like
(05:49):
that. When we think about Hoda, first
of all, I, I, you know, thankfully gotten to know you,
you know, off screen and you know, you're actually frankly
just the same as you are on screen in the sense you're
approachable, loving, optimistic, empathetic, a
superhuman, but not a super likewith a Cape, but more like a
super space human. I wonder how much of your
(06:12):
upbringing really has influencedwho you are today in the, in the
sense, how would, how would you say that?
How would you say that you're not just your the way you were
raised in your family, but the fact that you're raised in a
variety of different environments and you constantly
had to get to know people and make new friends?
I feel like my whole life was kind of bonding and severing.
(06:34):
It's like you meet, you go, you move, you know, and I did spend
all of high school in one spot, but then it was college and then
it was going from station to station.
I feel like for a lot of us, I wasn't like, you know, the
pretty kitten caught in high school.
I was the one who had the no prom, the no nothing, but it was
like, you know, kids who they'relook a funny name, glasses hair,
(06:57):
like it's like all the whole trifecta of like, Oh God.
But when you're growing up, you don't, you hate it while you're
growing up or you don't, you feel different.
But as you get older, you realize that that is kind of
turning into a superpower. And I feel like it really is the
thing that propelled me because my F6 button was not you, you're
(07:20):
not, you didn't get picked, you're not the one.
So I got used to. So when I got something, it was
more of an awesome surprise as opposed to a oh God, here we and
why didn't I get I was the one who never expected it.
So basketball team, Oh my God, what a shock.
Like I wasn't the kid who was ofcourse I'm going to make it.
And that went throughout my life.
(07:41):
It was like every time I got a gig, I was like, Oh my God, they
chose me. Almost like shocked and
grateful. So I think all of that kind of
stuff really kind of drives me in into this place where we are.
I think you and I are are similar in this way.
It's like I think a trickier childhood makes for an easy
(08:02):
adulthood. And I feel like, I mean, when
you're used to getting rejection, reject, then
rejection is just another thing.And as you get older, and that's
kind of how I feel. I feel like my life has been a
series of, Oh my gosh, I got that gig and I got that gig and
I think we had to work harder when we were younger just
(08:22):
because things didn't come quiteas easily.
At least that that's how it was for me.
Well, well, Speaking of not coming easily, I want to talk,
if you're OK with it, about yourearly 40s or of the the dawning
of midlife, because that was a kind of dizzying time for you.
If I'm not mistaken. You, you got married in 2005.
(08:44):
You joined as the inaugural hostof the fourth hour of the Today
Show in 2007, in year that you actually got a breast cancer
diagnosis and did your marriage in 2008.
So you're having your midlife chrysalis girlfriend.
I mean, really, that was a lot. But if you don't mind, tell us a
little bit about what was going on in your early 40s.
(09:07):
And. Yeah.
Yeah, that was a tough, that wasa tough chunk of time.
And you're right about it. It was like sometimes when you
look at your life, like I actually thought everything was
going great right before that. It was like, you know, when
you're like, wow, I'm working atdateline, I'm engaged,
everything's great, blah, blah, blah.
(09:27):
And then all of the sudden, likethe world comes careening down
because of a phone call from a doctor.
What I learned was like, I was diagnosed with breast cancer and
it was terrifying for me. And I also kind of knew.
And I don't know, I'm sure people listening have had this.
Sometimes you get married because it's time.
(09:50):
And I had known this person for many, many years, and we'd
talked about it and broken up and back and forth, you know,
and all that stuff. And I just sort of felt like it
was time for this marriage to happen, which was a mistake.
But at the time, you know, I used to call myself, and I still
do, an optimist. But sometimes optimists don't
(10:11):
see everything. He's just tired.
No, it's just, it's fine. It's just X.
It's just Y. And then pretty soon, you know,
the crack kind of turns into a Canyon and you're so far apart.
So when I was diagnosed with breast cancer, it does it does
sharpen your focus. And it makes you realize I could
not be alive in a couple of years.
(10:33):
So what am I doing? And that's what it did for me.
I was like, what the hell am I doing here?
All the sudden I was looking around at the things in my life
and I was everything was clear. It was like someone took a
squeegee to my brain and they were like, ah, that you want and
that you don't want. Do you really want to carry that
around if you only have, you know, several years left?
(10:56):
And I was really afraid of of what might happen.
But it gave me this weird kind of fearlessness too.
And so around that time I was inthe process, my marriage didn't
officially and it takes a long time, but I had already started
the process right then because he wasn't there during that
(11:20):
time. And so that was and, and on top
of everything else, but that wasjust another thing.
And so then you're like, aha, OK, so when I'm on my knees, how
many times are on your knees in your life?
Maybe 8 I'm making it up, but really on your knees when you
really need people, you know that you need someone to pick
(11:40):
you up. Maybe in your whole life, that's
how many times and whoever's there during those times, like
that's the, that's the one. And whoever's not there, then
you know, then then you know, soin that time it, it took away so
many things. It took away, you know, my
ability to have children. It took away, you know, just
(12:01):
what I, I didn't think about dying until then really, but it
gave me like in all the mess, like I remembered in my
apartment by myself in my 40s thinking, Oh my God, I'm in a
job that I'm that was a datelinecorrespondent that I kind of
like, but I but I, but I was still kind of putting a circle
(12:22):
in a square. My relationship is blown up and
now I have this fatal, potentially fatal disease.
And you think to yourself in that moment, like, is this it,
man? Is this what happens at the end?
And is this it? And I remember thinking to
myself like, oh God, like this can't be what happens at the
(12:43):
end. And then something weird
happened. Like I woke up one night and I
was at home and I was living alone.
And it was like, you're kind of heal and everything was yucky.
And I kind of woke up with four words.
It was like, you can't scare me.All of a sudden I was like, you
can't scare me. You can't scare me.
This is the worst already. Like, what could someone
(13:06):
possibly take from me? Like, screw it.
So that weird, like crazy feeling took me straight to 30
Rockefeller Center. When I still wasn't back to
work, I hit the 52nd floor button because I knew that's
where all the big wings were. I saw Jeff Zucker, who was like
(13:26):
the king at the time, and I was like, Jeff, this thing, I got
this epiphany. He was like, what the hell is
wrong with you and how did you get here?
And I was like, I got this thing.
I go, I got sick, I had breast cancer and I'm now I'm better,
I'm getting better and I'm no one can scare me.
And I there's a new hour of the Today show and I want that gig.
He was like you like you want it.
(13:47):
Why wouldn't you? You know, why wouldn't hire you?
He was thinking, but I didn't care because I never asked for
anything until then. And it so it that that gooey
that you describe that part where you're inside and you're
scared and you think I might this might be how it all ends.
And then one day something amazing happens.
(14:08):
And it took me up there to him. And that was kind of the
beginning. I did not that know that story
and I'm sure it's out that it's been out there, but that's a
beautiful story, Hoda. I mean, wow, that the fact that
you, you just said I want this. Yes, and I never said stuff like
that. Before wow so that's that's AI
(14:30):
mean the butterfly came out of the chrysalis lately yes wow OK,
so that's that's just a lot right there.
So then you were on your sojournwith the date to the Today show
for you know we won't get into the full details of just 17 or
18 years or however long it was you were in midlife and the idea
(14:52):
of being a female anchor in midlife and you know later
middle starting to be later midlife.
How was that Did you ever feel you know I'm I'm it's you know
we you ultimately got to a placewhere you and Savannah were Co
first time female Co hosts of this about a male Co host.
(15:14):
Did you ever find along the way that age was starting to work
against you? Or was it were you just tapping
into your wisdom? You.
Know what's funny? Throughout my career before the
Today show, it is true that you know you always saw the anchor
teams. It was always the old man
looking guy and the young girl and that was normal and so
(15:35):
weird. I always thought I was like,
that is so unusual, especially because they want women who are
watching TV and women who are watching TV don't like that We
don't like seeing Matt. Like that's not that doesn't
feel right. That feels unusual.
However, when I got to this gig with Savannah and this was
after, you know, all the stuff with Matt had happened and
(15:57):
people can Google that, but it So we were put together for the
for the first time, I had lots of role models for women in this
space. Meredith Vieira came before us
and she was in her 50s and she was a star in Curry, Robin
Roberts, later Gayle King, Oprah.
(16:19):
You know, if you look at the women who are on top of the
mountain, they are women of thatage because women at home enjoy
watching women like that. And so I think I think I did
some feelings of, oh, is it did I is it too late or, you know,
(16:39):
you don't know because who whoever thinks they're going to
get their dream job in their 50s?
I mean, when does that happen? But I got mine then.
So it's so crazy to imagine, like if someone had said to me,
Chip, when I was, you know, a kid or 18, all your blessings
are coming in your 50s, I would have like jumped off a Cliff.
I would have been pissed. But all my blessings didn't come
(17:04):
in my 50s. But I do think that, yeah, I I I
think that it was shocking to methat so many good things would
happen, especially in my after my 40s.
I couldn't imagine that all the sudden what would have unfolded
would have been this crazy. Best decade so far, you know of
(17:26):
my life. Yeah, no, I I felt the same way
fit by 50. I loved my 50s.
So in your 50s, you, you ended up adopting two kids and you've
got Haley Joy. And I love the word joy.
I started a company called Joy and talk talk a little bit about
(17:46):
the the Haley and and the the hope in your life and you even
have wrote a kids book. Hope is is a rainbow based upon
what hope had to go through health wise.
So tell us a little bit about. You Well, just the idea to have
kids. To me again, at that stage in
life, midlife seemed very unusual.
(18:07):
And I was, I was walking with a friend of mine and she casually
said to me, I was 51. She says, I'm like, we never
want to have kids. And just kind of said it like it
was nothing. And I go, I stopped her and I
looked at her and I go, I actually, I actually kind of did
want to have kids. She goes, what?
You never mentioned it. I go, well, I didn't mention it
(18:28):
because, you know, after cancer and all that stuff, it wasn't
happening. So I never brought it up again.
And she goes, oh, is that because I always said I also
wanted to be a teacher when I was done with it?
She was. Is that why you say you want to
teach elementary school? I said, yeah, that's why.
So I get home and I turn on the TV and there's there's Sandra
Bullock who is tell telling or people are telling the world
(18:52):
that Sandra Bullock adopted a baby named Louie from New
Orleans. And I was like, so I'm like, how
old was Sandra Bullock? Is Sandra Bullock?
So I clicked it and she was my exact age.
I was like, are you kidding me? Wait, what?
All of a sudden, that's all I could see.
I was like, then I saw somethingon TV about a kid whose parents
had passed. And I was like, oh, that kid
(19:12):
needs me in this. So all of a sudden, like, the
stars just started churning. And I got to tell you, Chip, I
ended up, you know, filled out all the adoption papers, did all
the things. I'm sitting in my office at 30
Rock doing some who knows what, and I get a text and it says
Ashley Project. Ashley is the person from the
(19:33):
adoption agency. And I called it a project just
so no one would know if someone called.
And she said if I ever text you call me immediately.
Don't wait time's of the essence.
So I'm like Oh my God. So I saw the thing.
I sitting at my desk, I get a yellow pad.
I write 11:57 AM. All right, this is the moment
(19:55):
everything changes before and after starts.
Now I just writing and writing. And I dialed her number and
Ashley said 2 words. She goes.
She's here. I go, what?
She's here. I was like, Oh my God.
It's like, it's like, I don't know what a birth feels like,
but that. So got on a plane, picked her up
(20:17):
from Texas, brought her back, went and got hope two years
later, brought her back and it was like the most life changing
thing in the world for me. Chip.
I was 52 when I adopted Haley and Hope came two years later.
So it's 54 and it's been like the ride of a lifetime.
(20:40):
Like I can't believe I have kidswho sleep upstairs.
I can't believe I have kids who I walked to school this morning.
I can't believe that I'm going to, you know, it's like all the
things and it is challenging. Like I'm not going to say like
with anything like it is challenging.
So I make it a point to like, you know, take good care of
(21:02):
myself and do all these things because any older parent fears
that something would happen. I was at a speech the other day,
Chip, and the lady raised her hand and it was a ton of people
like, and they shined like a spotlight on her.
And she goes, I'm blind to meet you and ask a question.
I'm scared. And I can't believe we're
meeting and then saying all thisstuff.
(21:23):
And she goes, I have older parents and they died.
She goes, and I'm 42 and I want to have a baby and I'm scared of
that. And I understood.
And so I said, come, can you just come up here for a second?
And she waded her way through this crowd that was applauding
her. It was like the most beautiful
(21:43):
thing in the world. And she sat sat up on the stage
and she she goes, I can't believe I'm going to park.
She gets I'm going to throw up. And she was.
And I said to her, I said, look,I said, here's what I think.
I go. You can love until you can't.
I said, that's it. You love until you have none.
You're not around anymore. I said, you can love for five
years, 10 years. I said, I lost my dad at 54.
(22:06):
He loved me till I was 20. That's a lot of love to carry.
I said, so I don't know how much.
I don't know how long I'll live or anyone will live.
I said, but I don't think we can, you know, choose our path
based on that. But I was watching her and I and
I thought her name is Joanne. I don't remember anything about
the event, but I remember Joanneand I know that her fear is a is
(22:30):
a was my fear too. So from for her to say it out
loud was like, you know, kind ofbig.
But I think it also reminded me,Chip, that like, look, we're
only here for a minute. Love as many people as you can
for as long as you can. Like I hope I'm here to watch my
kids graduate everything, but ifnot, I'm going to pack them full
(22:51):
of enough love that that'll carry them hopefully to to the
end of their SO. The thing I I feel very lucky
that I've got a 13 year old and a 10 year old with a lesbian
couple, Eli and Ethan, as well as well as a 47 year old adult
foster son. So it it who was came into my
(23:12):
life at age 13. So kids, kids are kids teach us
a lot. They certainly do.
They help U.S. Open our hearts even more and
they get us out of the egocentricity of like, OK, the
world revolves around me, doesn't it?
Not when you have kids. No kidding, right?
No kidding. Love.
(23:33):
Let's talk about love for a minute, then let's just go back
to like, you know, career stuff.So 70% of the single people in
the United States over the age of 50 are women.
OK, do the math. So what is that all about?
What you know and, and, and, andactually, here's another
interesting stat. 70% of the Gray divorces These are divorces
(23:53):
after the age of 50 are initiated by women.
Oh really? I didn't know that.
Yeah, most, most older divorces and actually older divorces are
the only kind of divorce in the United States today.
They're actually growing as a percentage and all other kind of
divorces are declining as a percentage.
But older people getting divorced is a thing.
So what do you think about all that?
What do you, what do you what itwhat it when it comes to love,
(24:16):
when it comes to the odds, when it comes to all of this?
Do you do you sweat it? Do ponder it?
Do I mean, you're such a couch? I am incredibly hopeful.
I feel like there are times where I am like laying in my
room and my kids are asleep. I can actually close my eyes and
(24:36):
picture it like this person. He comes into our lives.
He is loving and caring and loves my kids.
I can imagine it and because I can see it there, I know it's
possible and I know it can happen and it would enrich our
(25:03):
family. Because I think, look, you want
love to come in all forms for your children.
And but for me too, like, I think to trust enough to love
somebody is not easy at any age.And Lamott said that she decided
that she was going to find a man.
(25:24):
You probably knows find a man who, if he were a girl, she
would want to be friends with and then marry him.
And that's what she did. And that's how she found Neil.
But I think there's something there about and I also think,
you know, I was, you know, afterI stopped working on the Today
show, working on other things Now I was thinking about how my
life still feels kind of Sprint ish.
(25:47):
And I said, you know, my whole goal was to be unhurried.
My whole goal here was to slow down and to make room for things
and to see things and to explorethings and to meet people that I
wouldn't have normally met. Because I'm so busy running.
It's almost like I need to resetagain.
Like that's kind of what I'm feeling right now.
Because I feel like, like sometimes I wonder, am I not
(26:08):
meeting because of trust? Am I not meeting because of like
my kids? Am I not meeting someone because
I'm afraid? Am I not meeting someone because
this is comfortable and I understand that and someone else
may bring in who knows what you know, But I want to be open and
I want it to come in, you know? I, I think one of the beauties
(26:30):
of finding love later in life and later meaning, you know,
after 45, let's say, is we know a little, we're a little clear
about who we are, you know, and we know who, who we love and
what we love. And we're, we're better at
editing firming, but we also have, when we find people like
(26:56):
you and me, the club, the, the, the ability to get close quickly
and to feel intimate is, I thinkmuch greater.
And, and also maybe I, I, you know, I think as we grow older,
we are growing whole as well. We learned how to alchemize
ourselves so that we're not so compartmentalized.
And I think part of you know what, I'm sure what you felt,
(27:17):
what you felt while you were ATVhost was the
compartmentalization of your life and getting up at 3:30 and,
you know, and I think about fourth at the same time.
So it's another reason we shouldget married.
But I think there's something beautiful about the the love
(27:37):
that comes later in life becauseyou've earned it.
And it's not that you have to earn it.
We don't have to earn love. Like I don't even love that
language. I just said because that reminds
me of conditional love. But what I mean we've earned it
is we're prepared for it. We have tilled the soil.
We know we've made fertile ground.
We have been, we have been good soil for a good relationship.
(27:59):
And yeah, I wish that and hope that for you.
By the way, that is such a beautiful statement.
And I think, I think, you know, after years of, you know, people
pleasing and the things that everyone does to make sure the
other one feels better or is I can be that or that's good
enough. And realizing that good enough,
(28:20):
you know, never really was enough.
And I think it takes a long timeto say that because you can be
in a relationship and nothing's really wrong with that.
It's just that buckets aren't filled.
Maria once said to me, when you're thinking about a
relationship layout buckets, it's the intimate bucket, the
financial bucket, the parental bucket, the, you know, the
friendship bucket, the sexual bucket, the, you know, all the
(28:43):
more all the buckets that you would share with someone and
find out how many that person fills.
They should not fill them all, obviously, but how many do they
even put some into? And if it doesn't add up, then
it doesn't add up. This is the new bucket list.
(29:05):
The new bucket list. OK, so, So what is career wise
for you? I mean, I, I know a little bit,
but I, you know, but tell us more, tell us more.
You know, it was a big choice onyour part to say I'm stepping
away from the fame and the fortune and somewhat the
(29:26):
finality of like being, you know, like, is this all there
is? Am I defined by being that
person that people in America see in the morning on ATV show
or is there something more? And I know that you have felt
that there is something more, soshare that with us.
Yeah, the, the whole idea of saying goodbye to something that
(29:47):
you love is really tricky because it can, you can love it
and it can still be time for youto, for one to say goodbye to
it. And I was, you know, it was, it
was my 60th birthday and I was on the Plaza and I still
remember the signs. It was like we drove from
Minnesota to come and I'm looking around and my best
(30:08):
friends were all there and family members were there.
And I was like literally about to have a breakdown.
And I was like, and I realized in the middle of that birthday
party, like that was the top of the wave.
And in fact, in the view was awesome.
And I remember saying to Maria, something weird happened to me.
I said I knew then that that wasthat was it.
(30:30):
I knew it like with calm in my heart, like this is the top.
And she said when she was first lady of California, she said she
was doing women's conferences. And the last one was a doozy.
Like gazillion people, every speaker you could dream up.
And she said I was stood to the podium and she said I knew it.
I knew that was the last one too.
Sometimes you just know. And I think once the once that
(30:54):
happened, saying goodbye to something that's become so much
of your life was was tricky. And also like, I love the
interaction. I love the hang.
I love to walk in and spill my guts to Savannah in the morning
like we do in the makeup room and Boo Hoo.
And then we go on the air like built in connection that you
don't have to schedule or make apoint of.
(31:16):
So I do miss those kinds of things.
And of course I miss like everybody outside on the Plaza.
That was my favorite time of theday.
I miss that a lot, a lot. And I think to decide that it's
time to switch things when everything's great sounds very
counterintuitive. Usually something's got to go
wrong or, you know, you're on the outs or, or they cut your,
(31:40):
you know, or something. But for me, it was so strange
because I just knew. And I've been thinking about
working in this Wellness space for a while because it's really
been helping me. I went to a place called the
Hoffman Institute again, not to Maria name drop again, but she
was saying it was the most life changing thing she's done.
And then I tried some other things breath where I tried a
(32:01):
bunch of different things and I realized that that was what was
transformative to me. And so I just wanted to find a
place where it could all live together.
So that's what we essentially did were creating this kind of
little universe of all of those things where there are live
events and retreats and a an appand, you know, you know, classes
(32:21):
and all things that are just allcrammed in one place so that you
don't have to go fishing for it,which is kind of what I spend
most of my time doing. I'm like, where can I find a
good? Where is that?
Where's that? So Maria is one of ours, our
advisors as is like Arthur Brooks is 1 and Joanna Gaines
and we have some cool, fun people.
But anyway, it's, it's going to be it's a new chapter.
(32:41):
And who would have thought? Here I am at 60, I'm like, and
starting again. It's just crazy and it's brand
new. Well, not only starting again,
but really starting a business because it's a business that's
scary, yeah. Well, I know.
And first of all, who knew all this stuff and you had to do
when you start a business not I mean, you did.
Yeah. I was used to like NBC,
(33:03):
everything is like every they'relike, oh, you need that call
back guy. You need to.
There's no one to call. I'm like, who do we call?
They're like nobody. You call you like you got to fix
it. You find the sponsor, you get
the guy, you hire the person youknow.
It's just crazy, you know? But it's all new to me.
Great team. I mean you, you know, did truly,
I mean, I mean, you attract great people.
(33:26):
So. But, yeah, it's hard, you know,
You know, the thing that's interesting and it's so
underreported is that the majority of entrepreneurs
starting businesses in the US are over the age of 50.
And we we tend to think it's like, oh, it's the it's the
person who dropped out. Yeah, the majority of American
(33:46):
businesses are started by peopleover age 50.
And that's partly because they have wound down a career and
they either can't find a job or they're tired of working for
somebody else, or they've had this idea percolating for a few
decades and they decide to go out.
And. And so you're on trend, a
(34:06):
girlfriend. I had no idea.
I had no idea. But I got to tell you, Chip,
it's kind of fun to do somethingyou've never done things I
didn't. I mean, all this tech business
that one's talking about now, I'm kind of getting the vibe and
I'm learning about investors andI'm learning.
I'm just learning it all. We're actually having a launch
party coming up in a little bit.And I mean, I can't wait.
(34:27):
Like it's all happening. We're launching this thing.
Maybe there's a collaboration between us in the future.
We'll, we'll say we, we, we, we have like talked a little bit
about it, but let's look, you know, crossing our fingers.
How, by the way, how's, how's your mom, Sammy?
Is it Sammy? You're so sweet.
You're like the nicest human. Just even saying her name makes
me want to cry. Let me tell you something, that
(34:47):
woman who is living in Alexandria, VA.
We FaceTime every morning and literally 7:30 with the kids and
we just came. My kids now are like we go back
and forth so often that they go,weren't we just here?
Which we were. That woman has cheered me on
since birth. To this day, this new adventure,
(35:08):
she's like, tell me about the sponsors.
Did you get any? I go, I got 1, you got it.
I knew it. Like it's insane to have someone
who is constantly like no matterif I called her right now, she
would immediately be like tell me everything I want to.
So I feel like and I want my kids.
(35:28):
I'm so grateful that my kids getto know her.
She is the gold standard of likehearing don't give up.
You got this. Don't quit.
You know? And she I mean she's like living
proof. She's 89 and she's brushing it.
She literally just sent me a screen grab that said 10,000
(35:50):
steps. I'm like, what are you doing?
But that's what she's doing. And so the and she keeps falling
in love, like with a book ATV show a scent of a perfume.
Try this food like Love's all around her.
And so I think that curiosity and all that stuff, like when I
(36:11):
look at her, that's what I want for my kids and for myself, it's
like, keep falling in love with something.
Doesn't matter if you can't findhim, find something.
One of the things that's true aswe get older is that time
becomes even more valuable. And so a few lightning round
questions here. 10 years from now, what would you regret if
(36:34):
you didn't learn it or do it now?
I would regret not taking guitarlessons.
I have a guitar sitting right here.
I took a couple and then put it down.
And I, I pick up the guitar every now and then and play one
song and I keep and I love the sound and I keep saying, what
are you doing? Take lessons and learn it.
(36:55):
So I would regret that. And also traveling more
traveling like I want, I want mykids to see the world.
And I keep saying we're doing it, but we keep going to Mexico
and, you know, like I got to mixit up.
What's the song, by the way? But nobody knows that's what it
is. Watch, I'm going to hold on.
We would Max landslide if I'm not.
No, but nobody knows. No, but nobody knows that I'm
(37:16):
playing it because it doesn't sound like it.
OK, hang on. Here we.
Go. If I can't hear it because I've
had phones in, can you hear it or no?
Wait, hang on down. Can't terrible.
But anyway, I'm getting the hangof it.
You are no see. I want to learn more than
(37:41):
landslide. But folks, Mama Newport
Festival. Like not.
You and Joni, Mitch. That would be a big one.
Oh my God. So let's let me get into another
question here. You have a great role model for
aging in your mom and you know what is what you know you're
you've entered your 60s. You loved your 50s.
(38:03):
So I'm four years ahead of you and you turned 61 in August.
I turned 65 in Halloween. So Long story short is what is
this decade meant to be? There was a your 50s were
flourishing my scent. Your your 60s are really meant
to go be a beginner again or trynew things.
(38:23):
And yes, that is that true. Yes.
And yes, that's on the nose. On the nose.
And you know what's funny? I was, I had this, someone gave
me an exercise. I said walk in nature and then
find something that you're drawnto.
So I did. It's right what you just said.
So I was walking there was this old tree and it was gorgeous,
was big and strong, but older and out of it was like this
(38:48):
beautiful vibrant green, like brand new shoot coming out of
it. And I've literally chip stood
there and looked at that and I was like, that's me.
It's like new growth keeps coming, keeps coming out of it,
but that's it. It's all about trying new
things. I mean, yes, that's what being a
(39:08):
beginner, I love that. You know, it's funny, one of the
questions I like to ask at cocktail parties and that that
just makes people think like, oh, that chip is a weirdo is at
what in your life? Are you a beginner these days?
And, and the reason I like to ask it is because, you know,
challenge with us as we get older is we move into the from a
growth to a fixed mindset and and we only like to play the
(39:31):
games that we can win. And therefore our sandbox gets
smaller and smaller and we boredor we're stuck and, and, and you
know that one of the things I love about MBA is people don't
expect it. But when they come to a
workshop, what they experience is learning to be a beginner
again. In Baja, they learn how to surf
if they want to. They don't have to.
(39:52):
We don't force it. They learn how to bake bread
together. They learn improv.
I love it. In Santa Fe they they learn how
to do karaoke or how to ride a horse.
Or because the idea of helping people be bad at something
together. So, so it's not just you being
(40:13):
bad, well, all being bad at thistogether.
It it's called type 2 fun. And it's the premise that in the
midst of doing it, you're like, I don't know about this, but
afterwards usually like, oh, that was so much fun.
But doing it with a collection of people and not worrying so
much about the self-conscious one being the self-conscious
one, because we're all self-conscious and then we're
(40:36):
all laughing at each other and ourselves.
It's just so essential, especially in midlife.
By the way, I love it. I love it actually.
I want to bring my staff to MEAIwas talking about something we
could do as like a team kind of thing.
And I know Sarah Blakely went with her old crew.
She was telling me and she lovedit.
And I, I, we're dying to go. So we're going to have to be
(40:58):
signed up as soon as we launch this thing you got.
To get hollowed out. Hollowed was supposed to come
and I think she she wasn't able.To God, you are so awesome.
Who are you? My sister?
You know her name? Boom, she signed up for him yet?
Come on. So here's another question.
Let's say that someone younger than you, like 2025 years
younger than you comes to you and says, so I know you've got
(41:24):
some wisdom inside of you. You've, you've lit, you know, if
our painful life lessons are theraw material for our future
wisdom, you have been creating raw material because you've had
life lessons. I want to sit down with you for
lunch next week and I want you to come to lunch with a bumper
sticker, a wisdom bumper stickerthat have your wisdom
(41:46):
fingerprints all over them. So like if there was just one
piece of advice or wisdom might offer in life or you better you
can have you could have two. You have one that's in life,
ones that career. What would be that that bumper
sticker? And then what's the origin story
behind it? Because guess what?
In the course of we, we are manufacturing wisdom if we're
(42:10):
getting our life right. Let's see, let me think.
That's a great question, by the way.
I think probably the overriding piece of wisdom for my life
would be never, ever, ever let anyone tell you what the odds
are, what the odds are of being successful, of having.
Because the if odds makers looked at my life through each
(42:33):
stage and said, what are the odds that this girl who started
in Greenville, Ms. would wind upanchoring the Today show?
It would be a million to one, probably even more than that.
Because there was no that that was totally improbable.
What are the odds that I would have been able to land a job at
Dateline? The odds were probably, I mean,
(42:55):
I had people who took risks on me.
What are the odds that at a booksigning I would meet a man that
I did fall in love with? I don't know a million to one.
What are the odds that I would have children in my 50s?
I mean, so I think mine would bedon't let anyone tell you the
odds because that's what will stop you if you are ignorant,
(43:18):
which I was. That's the best way to go
through life if you're if you'rein, you know, some people are
very practical. I would venture to guess that
most of the most famous musicians were impractical.
They just did it because they loved it and no one said, well,
you know, unless you do ABC and D, you're not going to make it.
It's like I'm just going to playmusic and come what may.
(43:39):
And that's sort of been my philosophy too.
So I think that would probably be my overriding in everything
and in professional life and personal life.
So just just swing for it and don't let anyone tell you, you
know, I had a professor in college who said to me, I just
want to save you a bunch of heartache and a lot of time.
(43:59):
You would be much better suited for PR.
Not nothing against you. I just think that you're
probably fine. But I just I know the roads
because blah, blah, blah. And I remember I told my dad
this my my dad before he passed.I said dad.
The guy said I wasn't. I was crying and he was like you
said, it probably wasn't going to be me.
He goes who who said that? I said this professor at what
(44:22):
school? I go my school.
What's your school? Virginia Tech.
What's it known for? Engineering.
What is it not known for? Broadcasting.
Yes. So OK, the man who's the
teaching there doesn't know. OK, don't worry about that.
I was like, OK, you know. But anyway, he just sort of
(44:43):
broke it down until, like, what are you worried about?
This guy don't know. They'll let one man's opinion
change in the course of your life.
Including Jeff Zucker. I mean, in terms of what?
What were those words again? You.
You can't scare me. Exactly.
Well, my dear, I don't think anybody can scare you, but I
think everybody will love you. I think the odds of this episode
(45:05):
being epic, noticing energy and being drawn to energy is what
Hoda is known for. I'm sure along the way people
told you, you have to change your name, my dear, you cannot
have that name, etcetera, etcetera.
People don't care about your name.
They don't care about your wrinkles.
They don't care about your back story.
They care about your front storyand the story of your energy and
(45:29):
how to copy has the best energy in the world.
I love you, Tiff. I love you.
I'm crying now again. I love you.
Wow. Thank you.
Thank you for that. Yeah, this is all about making
people cry. I love you too.
I love you, Chip. All right, I'll see you soon.
OK? I hope so.
All right. Bye, honey.
Bye. Thank you for watching the
(45:50):
Midlife Chrysalis Podcast.
Never, ever, ever let anyone tell you what the odds are.
I feel like my whole life was kind of bonding and severing.
It's like you meet, you go, you move, you know, And I did spend
all of high school in one spot, but then it was college and then
it was going from station to station.
Every time I got a gig, I was like, Oh my God, they chose me.
Almost like shocked and grateful.
(00:21):
Like if someone had said to me, Chip, when I was, you know, a
kid or 18, all your blessings are coming in your 50s, I would
have like, jumped off a Cliff. I would have been pissed.
But all my blessings didn't comein my 50s.
Welcome to the Midlife Chrysalispodcast with Chip Conley.
Hi, it's Chip Conley and it's the Midlife Chrysalis with Hoda
(00:43):
Kotbe on this episode. It was a little nerve racking to
know that I was going to be interviewing one of the world's
leading experts at doing interviews, Hoda, who used to be
the the host on the Today Show. But she's somebody I've gotten
to know and gotten to know deeply.
And I think you'll see a side ofher and her midlife renaissance.
(01:06):
And that really started after a very difficult early 40s in her
life. And she, like me, said her 50s
was her favorite decade and she's turned 60 last summer.
So I hope you enjoy the episode.I, I found it pretty inspiring
and I hope you do too, Hoda. Let's talk about the fact that
you grew, You grew up in Norman,OK?
(01:27):
Or at least you were born there.What was that like?
Well, you know what's funny is my parents were immigrants from
Egypt and they came and I don't really remember anything beyond
the fact that we were, they wereassimilators on by every single
definition of the word, they were assimilators.
So I think it was we didn't realize.
(01:49):
My parents raised us not to realize there were differences.
They were like basically the theory was there are no
contradictions. Look around, everybody comes
from somewhere, everyone is kindof the same.
And that was that whole generation ship of people who
assimilated. That's what that was.
And so for my folks, when they came here, they were that way
too. So we always knew that if we
(02:14):
were hard workers and we did things the right way, we could
make it in this world. And I think that's kind of, that
was kind of their cornerstone. That was kind of their
beginning. And I feel like that helped us
so much because I'll tell you a little story about my dad passed
when I was in college. And you know, in his desk we
(02:35):
found a letter. And the letter said from my dad
to the Dean at WVU, where we moved later, it said, dear Dean,
so and so my name is Doctor Copy.
I would like to be brought up toscale with the other teachers
here at WBU. And you know, my pay scale is
lower and I have a doctorate degree, etcetera, etcetera.
And he wrote back, dear Doctor Copy, this is all you'll ever
(02:56):
make at WBU. We moved from Morgantown shortly
after that. Now my dad didn't say, look, you
got to be better. You got to be this, you got to
be that. He didn't.
He basically just said, look, you can, you know, he never
brought it up. So we didn't have that bug in
our head that was like, I'm not getting the job because of this,
(03:16):
I'm not getting the job because of that, or I didn't get that
big. It had nothing to do with it.
So he was very clear on like work hard, a door will open so.
You ended up spending some of your childhood, if I'm not
mistaken, in, in Egypt and in Nigeria.
Is that also true? Yeah, my dad got a job in
(03:39):
Nigeria teaching petroleum engineering.
So we went, I was there in like 4th grade, 3rd, 4th grade and we
were there for year. And it was really like alarming
for us. My brother, sister and I arrived
in Nigeria and we, we lived in abad and I remember getting into
the classroom and there was thisteacher and I was sitting in
(04:00):
class and I was kind of nervous because I didn't know what was
going on. Everyone was in uniforms and it
was an outdoor class and all the, the young men, boys in my
class had like 3 like almost like scars.
And I was looking around and everyone was different.
I don't know what to make of it.And a kid raised his hand in the
class. He said teacher.
(04:21):
The teacher pointed him and he goes, why does the word business
look like it's pronounced buzzness?
And I was like, must be US. The teacher walked over to him
and I remember because he used to erase the board with his
chalk with his hand. So we had chalk on his hand.
He took the kids by the short collar and just started smacking
him. I saw, I remember seeing chalk
dust. And he goes, don't say things
(04:42):
you don't understand. And I remembered looking at this
kid and looking at this teacher and thinking to myself, like, Oh
my God, I can't believe what's going on here.
And so that was an environment we weren't used to, you know, we
weren't used to any of it. And it was kind of scary, quite
frankly. But you know, as we went
(05:02):
through, like I used to think ifanyone touches my brother, I
knew what my brother screams outof, like for many years.
So I was like, if I could hear his classroom, I was like, I
know my brother's scream if something happens there.
It was an adjustment. But we were always kind of
moving and adjusting. I went to Egypt after college.
I didn't have a job, and I kind of went just because I didn't
have a plan and I wanted to get to know my relatives.
(05:26):
And in the summers, we went every summer.
Like for us, going to Egypt was like going to grandma's house.
It wasn't something that was so far-flung.
My parents showed us that the world was tiny.
It was small. And if you had, you know,
several $100, you could go to any of these really cool and
interesting places. So they they kept it tight like
(05:49):
that. When we think about Hoda, first
of all, I, I, you know, thankfully gotten to know you,
you know, off screen and you know, you're actually frankly
just the same as you are on screen in the sense you're
approachable, loving, optimistic, empathetic, a
superhuman, but not a super likewith a Cape, but more like a
super space human. I wonder how much of your
(06:12):
upbringing really has influencedwho you are today in the, in the
sense, how would, how would you say that?
How would you say that you're not just your the way you were
raised in your family, but the fact that you're raised in a
variety of different environments and you constantly
had to get to know people and make new friends?
I feel like my whole life was kind of bonding and severing.
(06:34):
It's like you meet, you go, you move, you know, and I did spend
all of high school in one spot, but then it was college and then
it was going from station to station.
I feel like for a lot of us, I wasn't like, you know, the
pretty kitten caught in high school.
I was the one who had the no prom, the no nothing, but it was
like, you know, kids who they'relook a funny name, glasses hair,
(06:57):
like it's like all the whole trifecta of like, Oh God.
But when you're growing up, you don't, you hate it while you're
growing up or you don't, you feel different.
But as you get older, you realize that that is kind of
turning into a superpower. And I feel like it really is the
thing that propelled me because my F6 button was not you, you're
(07:20):
not, you didn't get picked, you're not the one.
So I got used to. So when I got something, it was
more of an awesome surprise as opposed to a oh God, here we and
why didn't I get I was the one who never expected it.
So basketball team, Oh my God, what a shock.
Like I wasn't the kid who was ofcourse I'm going to make it.
And that went throughout my life.
(07:41):
It was like every time I got a gig, I was like, Oh my God, they
chose me. Almost like shocked and
grateful. So I think all of that kind of
stuff really kind of drives me in into this place where we are.
I think you and I are are similar in this way.
It's like I think a trickier childhood makes for an easy
(08:02):
adulthood. And I feel like, I mean, when
you're used to getting rejection, reject, then
rejection is just another thing.And as you get older, and that's
kind of how I feel. I feel like my life has been a
series of, Oh my gosh, I got that gig and I got that gig and
I think we had to work harder when we were younger just
(08:22):
because things didn't come quiteas easily.
At least that that's how it was for me.
Well, well, Speaking of not coming easily, I want to talk,
if you're OK with it, about yourearly 40s or of the the dawning
of midlife, because that was a kind of dizzying time for you.
If I'm not mistaken. You, you got married in 2005.
(08:44):
You joined as the inaugural hostof the fourth hour of the Today
Show in 2007, in year that you actually got a breast cancer
diagnosis and did your marriage in 2008.
So you're having your midlife chrysalis girlfriend.
I mean, really, that was a lot. But if you don't mind, tell us a
little bit about what was going on in your early 40s.
(09:07):
And. Yeah.
Yeah, that was a tough, that wasa tough chunk of time.
And you're right about it. It was like sometimes when you
look at your life, like I actually thought everything was
going great right before that. It was like, you know, when
you're like, wow, I'm working atdateline, I'm engaged,
everything's great, blah, blah, blah.
(09:27):
And then all of the sudden, likethe world comes careening down
because of a phone call from a doctor.
What I learned was like, I was diagnosed with breast cancer and
it was terrifying for me. And I also kind of knew.
And I don't know, I'm sure people listening have had this.
Sometimes you get married because it's time.
(09:50):
And I had known this person for many, many years, and we'd
talked about it and broken up and back and forth, you know,
and all that stuff. And I just sort of felt like it
was time for this marriage to happen, which was a mistake.
But at the time, you know, I used to call myself, and I still
do, an optimist. But sometimes optimists don't
(10:11):
see everything. He's just tired.
No, it's just, it's fine. It's just X.
It's just Y. And then pretty soon, you know,
the crack kind of turns into a Canyon and you're so far apart.
So when I was diagnosed with breast cancer, it does it does
sharpen your focus. And it makes you realize I could
not be alive in a couple of years.
(10:33):
So what am I doing? And that's what it did for me.
I was like, what the hell am I doing here?
All the sudden I was looking around at the things in my life
and I was everything was clear. It was like someone took a
squeegee to my brain and they were like, ah, that you want and
that you don't want. Do you really want to carry that
around if you only have, you know, several years left?
(10:56):
And I was really afraid of of what might happen.
But it gave me this weird kind of fearlessness too.
And so around that time I was inthe process, my marriage didn't
officially and it takes a long time, but I had already started
the process right then because he wasn't there during that
(11:20):
time. And so that was and, and on top
of everything else, but that wasjust another thing.
And so then you're like, aha, OK, so when I'm on my knees, how
many times are on your knees in your life?
Maybe 8 I'm making it up, but really on your knees when you
really need people, you know that you need someone to pick
(11:40):
you up. Maybe in your whole life, that's
how many times and whoever's there during those times, like
that's the, that's the one. And whoever's not there, then
you know, then then you know, soin that time it, it took away so
many things. It took away, you know, my
ability to have children. It took away, you know, just
(12:01):
what I, I didn't think about dying until then really, but it
gave me like in all the mess, like I remembered in my
apartment by myself in my 40s thinking, Oh my God, I'm in a
job that I'm that was a datelinecorrespondent that I kind of
like, but I but I, but I was still kind of putting a circle
(12:22):
in a square. My relationship is blown up and
now I have this fatal, potentially fatal disease.
And you think to yourself in that moment, like, is this it,
man? Is this what happens at the end?
And is this it? And I remember thinking to
myself like, oh God, like this can't be what happens at the
(12:43):
end. And then something weird
happened. Like I woke up one night and I
was at home and I was living alone.
And it was like, you're kind of heal and everything was yucky.
And I kind of woke up with four words.
It was like, you can't scare me.All of a sudden I was like, you
can't scare me. You can't scare me.
This is the worst already. Like, what could someone
(13:06):
possibly take from me? Like, screw it.
So that weird, like crazy feeling took me straight to 30
Rockefeller Center. When I still wasn't back to
work, I hit the 52nd floor button because I knew that's
where all the big wings were. I saw Jeff Zucker, who was like
(13:26):
the king at the time, and I was like, Jeff, this thing, I got
this epiphany. He was like, what the hell is
wrong with you and how did you get here?
And I was like, I got this thing.
I go, I got sick, I had breast cancer and I'm now I'm better,
I'm getting better and I'm no one can scare me.
And I there's a new hour of the Today show and I want that gig.
He was like you like you want it.
(13:47):
Why wouldn't you? You know, why wouldn't hire you?
He was thinking, but I didn't care because I never asked for
anything until then. And it so it that that gooey
that you describe that part where you're inside and you're
scared and you think I might this might be how it all ends.
And then one day something amazing happens.
(14:08):
And it took me up there to him. And that was kind of the
beginning. I did not that know that story
and I'm sure it's out that it's been out there, but that's a
beautiful story, Hoda. I mean, wow, that the fact that
you, you just said I want this. Yes, and I never said stuff like
that. Before wow so that's that's AI
(14:30):
mean the butterfly came out of the chrysalis lately yes wow OK,
so that's that's just a lot right there.
So then you were on your sojournwith the date to the Today show
for you know we won't get into the full details of just 17 or
18 years or however long it was you were in midlife and the idea
(14:52):
of being a female anchor in midlife and you know later
middle starting to be later midlife.
How was that Did you ever feel you know I'm I'm it's you know
we you ultimately got to a placewhere you and Savannah were Co
first time female Co hosts of this about a male Co host.
(15:14):
Did you ever find along the way that age was starting to work
against you? Or was it were you just tapping
into your wisdom? You.
Know what's funny? Throughout my career before the
Today show, it is true that you know you always saw the anchor
teams. It was always the old man
looking guy and the young girl and that was normal and so
(15:35):
weird. I always thought I was like,
that is so unusual, especially because they want women who are
watching TV and women who are watching TV don't like that We
don't like seeing Matt. Like that's not that doesn't
feel right. That feels unusual.
However, when I got to this gig with Savannah and this was
after, you know, all the stuff with Matt had happened and
(15:57):
people can Google that, but it So we were put together for the
for the first time, I had lots of role models for women in this
space. Meredith Vieira came before us
and she was in her 50s and she was a star in Curry, Robin
Roberts, later Gayle King, Oprah.
(16:19):
You know, if you look at the women who are on top of the
mountain, they are women of thatage because women at home enjoy
watching women like that. And so I think I think I did
some feelings of, oh, is it did I is it too late or, you know,
(16:39):
you don't know because who whoever thinks they're going to
get their dream job in their 50s?
I mean, when does that happen? But I got mine then.
So it's so crazy to imagine, like if someone had said to me,
Chip, when I was, you know, a kid or 18, all your blessings
are coming in your 50s, I would have like jumped off a Cliff.
I would have been pissed. But all my blessings didn't come
(17:04):
in my 50s. But I do think that, yeah, I I I
think that it was shocking to methat so many good things would
happen, especially in my after my 40s.
I couldn't imagine that all the sudden what would have unfolded
would have been this crazy. Best decade so far, you know of
(17:26):
my life. Yeah, no, I I felt the same way
fit by 50. I loved my 50s.
So in your 50s, you, you ended up adopting two kids and you've
got Haley Joy. And I love the word joy.
I started a company called Joy and talk talk a little bit about
(17:46):
the the Haley and and the the hope in your life and you even
have wrote a kids book. Hope is is a rainbow based upon
what hope had to go through health wise.
So tell us a little bit about. You Well, just the idea to have
kids. To me again, at that stage in
life, midlife seemed very unusual.
(18:07):
And I was, I was walking with a friend of mine and she casually
said to me, I was 51. She says, I'm like, we never
want to have kids. And just kind of said it like it
was nothing. And I go, I stopped her and I
looked at her and I go, I actually, I actually kind of did
want to have kids. She goes, what?
You never mentioned it. I go, well, I didn't mention it
(18:28):
because, you know, after cancer and all that stuff, it wasn't
happening. So I never brought it up again.
And she goes, oh, is that because I always said I also
wanted to be a teacher when I was done with it?
She was. Is that why you say you want to
teach elementary school? I said, yeah, that's why.
So I get home and I turn on the TV and there's there's Sandra
Bullock who is tell telling or people are telling the world
(18:52):
that Sandra Bullock adopted a baby named Louie from New
Orleans. And I was like, so I'm like, how
old was Sandra Bullock? Is Sandra Bullock?
So I clicked it and she was my exact age.
I was like, are you kidding me? Wait, what?
All of a sudden, that's all I could see.
I was like, then I saw somethingon TV about a kid whose parents
had passed. And I was like, oh, that kid
(19:12):
needs me in this. So all of a sudden, like, the
stars just started churning. And I got to tell you, Chip, I
ended up, you know, filled out all the adoption papers, did all
the things. I'm sitting in my office at 30
Rock doing some who knows what, and I get a text and it says
Ashley Project. Ashley is the person from the
(19:33):
adoption agency. And I called it a project just
so no one would know if someone called.
And she said if I ever text you call me immediately.
Don't wait time's of the essence.
So I'm like Oh my God. So I saw the thing.
I sitting at my desk, I get a yellow pad.
I write 11:57 AM. All right, this is the moment
(19:55):
everything changes before and after starts.
Now I just writing and writing. And I dialed her number and
Ashley said 2 words. She goes.
She's here. I go, what?
She's here. I was like, Oh my God.
It's like, it's like, I don't know what a birth feels like,
but that. So got on a plane, picked her up
(20:17):
from Texas, brought her back, went and got hope two years
later, brought her back and it was like the most life changing
thing in the world for me. Chip.
I was 52 when I adopted Haley and Hope came two years later.
So it's 54 and it's been like the ride of a lifetime.
(20:40):
Like I can't believe I have kidswho sleep upstairs.
I can't believe I have kids who I walked to school this morning.
I can't believe that I'm going to, you know, it's like all the
things and it is challenging. Like I'm not going to say like
with anything like it is challenging.
So I make it a point to like, you know, take good care of
(21:02):
myself and do all these things because any older parent fears
that something would happen. I was at a speech the other day,
Chip, and the lady raised her hand and it was a ton of people
like, and they shined like a spotlight on her.
And she goes, I'm blind to meet you and ask a question.
I'm scared. And I can't believe we're
meeting and then saying all thisstuff.
(21:23):
And she goes, I have older parents and they died.
She goes, and I'm 42 and I want to have a baby and I'm scared of
that. And I understood.
And so I said, come, can you just come up here for a second?
And she waded her way through this crowd that was applauding
her. It was like the most beautiful
(21:43):
thing in the world. And she sat sat up on the stage
and she she goes, I can't believe I'm going to park.
She gets I'm going to throw up. And she was.
And I said to her, I said, look,I said, here's what I think.
I go. You can love until you can't.
I said, that's it. You love until you have none.
You're not around anymore. I said, you can love for five
years, 10 years. I said, I lost my dad at 54.
(22:06):
He loved me till I was 20. That's a lot of love to carry.
I said, so I don't know how much.
I don't know how long I'll live or anyone will live.
I said, but I don't think we can, you know, choose our path
based on that. But I was watching her and I and
I thought her name is Joanne. I don't remember anything about
the event, but I remember Joanneand I know that her fear is a is
(22:30):
a was my fear too. So from for her to say it out
loud was like, you know, kind ofbig.
But I think it also reminded me,Chip, that like, look, we're
only here for a minute. Love as many people as you can
for as long as you can. Like I hope I'm here to watch my
kids graduate everything, but ifnot, I'm going to pack them full
(22:51):
of enough love that that'll carry them hopefully to to the
end of their SO. The thing I I feel very lucky
that I've got a 13 year old and a 10 year old with a lesbian
couple, Eli and Ethan, as well as well as a 47 year old adult
foster son. So it it who was came into my
(23:12):
life at age 13. So kids, kids are kids teach us
a lot. They certainly do.
They help U.S. Open our hearts even more and
they get us out of the egocentricity of like, OK, the
world revolves around me, doesn't it?
Not when you have kids. No kidding, right?
No kidding. Love.
(23:33):
Let's talk about love for a minute, then let's just go back
to like, you know, career stuff.So 70% of the single people in
the United States over the age of 50 are women.
OK, do the math. So what is that all about?
What you know and, and, and, andactually, here's another
interesting stat. 70% of the Gray divorces These are divorces
(23:53):
after the age of 50 are initiated by women.
Oh really? I didn't know that.
Yeah, most, most older divorces and actually older divorces are
the only kind of divorce in the United States today.
They're actually growing as a percentage and all other kind of
divorces are declining as a percentage.
But older people getting divorced is a thing.
So what do you think about all that?
What do you, what do you what itwhat it when it comes to love,
(24:16):
when it comes to the odds, when it comes to all of this?
Do you do you sweat it? Do ponder it?
Do I mean, you're such a couch? I am incredibly hopeful.
I feel like there are times where I am like laying in my
room and my kids are asleep. I can actually close my eyes and
(24:36):
picture it like this person. He comes into our lives.
He is loving and caring and loves my kids.
I can imagine it and because I can see it there, I know it's
possible and I know it can happen and it would enrich our
(25:03):
family. Because I think, look, you want
love to come in all forms for your children.
And but for me too, like, I think to trust enough to love
somebody is not easy at any age.And Lamott said that she decided
that she was going to find a man.
(25:24):
You probably knows find a man who, if he were a girl, she
would want to be friends with and then marry him.
And that's what she did. And that's how she found Neil.
But I think there's something there about and I also think,
you know, I was, you know, afterI stopped working on the Today
show, working on other things Now I was thinking about how my
life still feels kind of Sprint ish.
(25:47):
And I said, you know, my whole goal was to be unhurried.
My whole goal here was to slow down and to make room for things
and to see things and to explorethings and to meet people that I
wouldn't have normally met. Because I'm so busy running.
It's almost like I need to resetagain.
Like that's kind of what I'm feeling right now.
Because I feel like, like sometimes I wonder, am I not
(26:08):
meeting because of trust? Am I not meeting because of like
my kids? Am I not meeting someone because
I'm afraid? Am I not meeting someone because
this is comfortable and I understand that and someone else
may bring in who knows what you know, But I want to be open and
I want it to come in, you know? I, I think one of the beauties
(26:30):
of finding love later in life and later meaning, you know,
after 45, let's say, is we know a little, we're a little clear
about who we are, you know, and we know who, who we love and
what we love. And we're, we're better at
editing firming, but we also have, when we find people like
(26:56):
you and me, the club, the, the, the ability to get close quickly
and to feel intimate is, I thinkmuch greater.
And, and also maybe I, I, you know, I think as we grow older,
we are growing whole as well. We learned how to alchemize
ourselves so that we're not so compartmentalized.
And I think part of you know what, I'm sure what you felt,
(27:17):
what you felt while you were ATVhost was the
compartmentalization of your life and getting up at 3:30 and,
you know, and I think about fourth at the same time.
So it's another reason we shouldget married.
But I think there's something beautiful about the the love
(27:37):
that comes later in life becauseyou've earned it.
And it's not that you have to earn it.
We don't have to earn love. Like I don't even love that
language. I just said because that reminds
me of conditional love. But what I mean we've earned it
is we're prepared for it. We have tilled the soil.
We know we've made fertile ground.
We have been, we have been good soil for a good relationship.
(27:59):
And yeah, I wish that and hope that for you.
By the way, that is such a beautiful statement.
And I think, I think, you know, after years of, you know, people
pleasing and the things that everyone does to make sure the
other one feels better or is I can be that or that's good
enough. And realizing that good enough,
(28:20):
you know, never really was enough.
And I think it takes a long timeto say that because you can be
in a relationship and nothing's really wrong with that.
It's just that buckets aren't filled.
Maria once said to me, when you're thinking about a
relationship layout buckets, it's the intimate bucket, the
financial bucket, the parental bucket, the, you know, the
friendship bucket, the sexual bucket, the, you know, all the
(28:43):
more all the buckets that you would share with someone and
find out how many that person fills.
They should not fill them all, obviously, but how many do they
even put some into? And if it doesn't add up, then
it doesn't add up. This is the new bucket list.
(29:05):
The new bucket list. OK, so, So what is career wise
for you? I mean, I, I know a little bit,
but I, you know, but tell us more, tell us more.
You know, it was a big choice onyour part to say I'm stepping
away from the fame and the fortune and somewhat the
(29:26):
finality of like being, you know, like, is this all there
is? Am I defined by being that
person that people in America see in the morning on ATV show
or is there something more? And I know that you have felt
that there is something more, soshare that with us.
Yeah, the, the whole idea of saying goodbye to something that
(29:47):
you love is really tricky because it can, you can love it
and it can still be time for youto, for one to say goodbye to
it. And I was, you know, it was, it
was my 60th birthday and I was on the Plaza and I still
remember the signs. It was like we drove from
Minnesota to come and I'm looking around and my best
(30:08):
friends were all there and family members were there.
And I was like literally about to have a breakdown.
And I was like, and I realized in the middle of that birthday
party, like that was the top of the wave.
And in fact, in the view was awesome.
And I remember saying to Maria, something weird happened to me.
I said I knew then that that wasthat was it.
(30:30):
I knew it like with calm in my heart, like this is the top.
And she said when she was first lady of California, she said she
was doing women's conferences. And the last one was a doozy.
Like gazillion people, every speaker you could dream up.
And she said I was stood to the podium and she said I knew it.
I knew that was the last one too.
Sometimes you just know. And I think once the once that
(30:54):
happened, saying goodbye to something that's become so much
of your life was was tricky. And also like, I love the
interaction. I love the hang.
I love to walk in and spill my guts to Savannah in the morning
like we do in the makeup room and Boo Hoo.
And then we go on the air like built in connection that you
don't have to schedule or make apoint of.
(31:16):
So I do miss those kinds of things.
And of course I miss like everybody outside on the Plaza.
That was my favorite time of theday.
I miss that a lot, a lot. And I think to decide that it's
time to switch things when everything's great sounds very
counterintuitive. Usually something's got to go
wrong or, you know, you're on the outs or, or they cut your,
(31:40):
you know, or something. But for me, it was so strange
because I just knew. And I've been thinking about
working in this Wellness space for a while because it's really
been helping me. I went to a place called the
Hoffman Institute again, not to Maria name drop again, but she
was saying it was the most life changing thing she's done.
And then I tried some other things breath where I tried a
(32:01):
bunch of different things and I realized that that was what was
transformative to me. And so I just wanted to find a
place where it could all live together.
So that's what we essentially did were creating this kind of
little universe of all of those things where there are live
events and retreats and a an appand, you know, you know, classes
(32:21):
and all things that are just allcrammed in one place so that you
don't have to go fishing for it,which is kind of what I spend
most of my time doing. I'm like, where can I find a
good? Where is that?
Where's that? So Maria is one of ours, our
advisors as is like Arthur Brooks is 1 and Joanna Gaines
and we have some cool, fun people.
But anyway, it's, it's going to be it's a new chapter.
(32:41):
And who would have thought? Here I am at 60, I'm like, and
starting again. It's just crazy and it's brand
new. Well, not only starting again,
but really starting a business because it's a business that's
scary, yeah. Well, I know.
And first of all, who knew all this stuff and you had to do
when you start a business not I mean, you did.
Yeah. I was used to like NBC,
(33:03):
everything is like every they'relike, oh, you need that call
back guy. You need to.
There's no one to call. I'm like, who do we call?
They're like nobody. You call you like you got to fix
it. You find the sponsor, you get
the guy, you hire the person youknow.
It's just crazy, you know? But it's all new to me.
Great team. I mean you, you know, did truly,
I mean, I mean, you attract great people.
(33:26):
So. But, yeah, it's hard, you know,
You know, the thing that's interesting and it's so
underreported is that the majority of entrepreneurs
starting businesses in the US are over the age of 50.
And we we tend to think it's like, oh, it's the it's the
person who dropped out. Yeah, the majority of American
(33:46):
businesses are started by peopleover age 50.
And that's partly because they have wound down a career and
they either can't find a job or they're tired of working for
somebody else, or they've had this idea percolating for a few
decades and they decide to go out.
And. And so you're on trend, a
(34:06):
girlfriend. I had no idea.
I had no idea. But I got to tell you, Chip,
it's kind of fun to do somethingyou've never done things I
didn't. I mean, all this tech business
that one's talking about now, I'm kind of getting the vibe and
I'm learning about investors andI'm learning.
I'm just learning it all. We're actually having a launch
party coming up in a little bit.And I mean, I can't wait.
(34:27):
Like it's all happening. We're launching this thing.
Maybe there's a collaboration between us in the future.
We'll, we'll say we, we, we, we have like talked a little bit
about it, but let's look, you know, crossing our fingers.
How, by the way, how's, how's your mom, Sammy?
Is it Sammy? You're so sweet.
You're like the nicest human. Just even saying her name makes
me want to cry. Let me tell you something, that
(34:47):
woman who is living in Alexandria, VA.
We FaceTime every morning and literally 7:30 with the kids and
we just came. My kids now are like we go back
and forth so often that they go,weren't we just here?
Which we were. That woman has cheered me on
since birth. To this day, this new adventure,
(35:08):
she's like, tell me about the sponsors.
Did you get any? I go, I got 1, you got it.
I knew it. Like it's insane to have someone
who is constantly like no matterif I called her right now, she
would immediately be like tell me everything I want to.
So I feel like and I want my kids.
(35:28):
I'm so grateful that my kids getto know her.
She is the gold standard of likehearing don't give up.
You got this. Don't quit.
You know? And she I mean she's like living
proof. She's 89 and she's brushing it.
She literally just sent me a screen grab that said 10,000
(35:50):
steps. I'm like, what are you doing?
But that's what she's doing. And so the and she keeps falling
in love, like with a book ATV show a scent of a perfume.
Try this food like Love's all around her.
And so I think that curiosity and all that stuff, like when I
(36:11):
look at her, that's what I want for my kids and for myself, it's
like, keep falling in love with something.
Doesn't matter if you can't findhim, find something.
One of the things that's true aswe get older is that time
becomes even more valuable. And so a few lightning round
questions here. 10 years from now, what would you regret if
(36:34):
you didn't learn it or do it now?
I would regret not taking guitarlessons.
I have a guitar sitting right here.
I took a couple and then put it down.
And I, I pick up the guitar every now and then and play one
song and I keep and I love the sound and I keep saying, what
are you doing? Take lessons and learn it.
(36:55):
So I would regret that. And also traveling more
traveling like I want, I want mykids to see the world.
And I keep saying we're doing it, but we keep going to Mexico
and, you know, like I got to mixit up.
What's the song, by the way? But nobody knows that's what it
is. Watch, I'm going to hold on.
We would Max landslide if I'm not.
No, but nobody knows. No, but nobody knows that I'm
(37:16):
playing it because it doesn't sound like it.
OK, hang on. Here we.
Go. If I can't hear it because I've
had phones in, can you hear it or no?
Wait, hang on down. Can't terrible.
But anyway, I'm getting the hangof it.
You are no see. I want to learn more than
(37:41):
landslide. But folks, Mama Newport
Festival. Like not.
You and Joni, Mitch. That would be a big one.
Oh my God. So let's let me get into another
question here. You have a great role model for
aging in your mom and you know what is what you know you're
you've entered your 60s. You loved your 50s.
(38:03):
So I'm four years ahead of you and you turned 61 in August.
I turned 65 in Halloween. So Long story short is what is
this decade meant to be? There was a your 50s were
flourishing my scent. Your your 60s are really meant
to go be a beginner again or trynew things.
(38:23):
And yes, that is that true. Yes.
And yes, that's on the nose. On the nose.
And you know what's funny? I was, I had this, someone gave
me an exercise. I said walk in nature and then
find something that you're drawnto.
So I did. It's right what you just said.
So I was walking there was this old tree and it was gorgeous,
was big and strong, but older and out of it was like this
(38:48):
beautiful vibrant green, like brand new shoot coming out of
it. And I've literally chip stood
there and looked at that and I was like, that's me.
It's like new growth keeps coming, keeps coming out of it,
but that's it. It's all about trying new
things. I mean, yes, that's what being a
(39:08):
beginner, I love that. You know, it's funny, one of the
questions I like to ask at cocktail parties and that that
just makes people think like, oh, that chip is a weirdo is at
what in your life? Are you a beginner these days?
And, and the reason I like to ask it is because, you know,
challenge with us as we get older is we move into the from a
growth to a fixed mindset and and we only like to play the
(39:31):
games that we can win. And therefore our sandbox gets
smaller and smaller and we boredor we're stuck and, and, and you
know that one of the things I love about MBA is people don't
expect it. But when they come to a
workshop, what they experience is learning to be a beginner
again. In Baja, they learn how to surf
if they want to. They don't have to.
(39:52):
We don't force it. They learn how to bake bread
together. They learn improv.
I love it. In Santa Fe they they learn how
to do karaoke or how to ride a horse.
Or because the idea of helping people be bad at something
together. So, so it's not just you being
(40:13):
bad, well, all being bad at thistogether.
It it's called type 2 fun. And it's the premise that in the
midst of doing it, you're like, I don't know about this, but
afterwards usually like, oh, that was so much fun.
But doing it with a collection of people and not worrying so
much about the self-conscious one being the self-conscious
one, because we're all self-conscious and then we're
(40:36):
all laughing at each other and ourselves.
It's just so essential, especially in midlife.
By the way, I love it. I love it actually.
I want to bring my staff to MEAIwas talking about something we
could do as like a team kind of thing.
And I know Sarah Blakely went with her old crew.
She was telling me and she lovedit.
And I, I, we're dying to go. So we're going to have to be
(40:58):
signed up as soon as we launch this thing you got.
To get hollowed out. Hollowed was supposed to come
and I think she she wasn't able.To God, you are so awesome.
Who are you? My sister?
You know her name? Boom, she signed up for him yet?
Come on. So here's another question.
Let's say that someone younger than you, like 2025 years
younger than you comes to you and says, so I know you've got
(41:24):
some wisdom inside of you. You've, you've lit, you know, if
our painful life lessons are theraw material for our future
wisdom, you have been creating raw material because you've had
life lessons. I want to sit down with you for
lunch next week and I want you to come to lunch with a bumper
sticker, a wisdom bumper stickerthat have your wisdom
(41:46):
fingerprints all over them. So like if there was just one
piece of advice or wisdom might offer in life or you better you
can have you could have two. You have one that's in life,
ones that career. What would be that that bumper
sticker? And then what's the origin story
behind it? Because guess what?
In the course of we, we are manufacturing wisdom if we're
(42:10):
getting our life right. Let's see, let me think.
That's a great question, by the way.
I think probably the overriding piece of wisdom for my life
would be never, ever, ever let anyone tell you what the odds
are, what the odds are of being successful, of having.
Because the if odds makers looked at my life through each
(42:33):
stage and said, what are the odds that this girl who started
in Greenville, Ms. would wind upanchoring the Today show?
It would be a million to one, probably even more than that.
Because there was no that that was totally improbable.
What are the odds that I would have been able to land a job at
Dateline? The odds were probably, I mean,
(42:55):
I had people who took risks on me.
What are the odds that at a booksigning I would meet a man that
I did fall in love with? I don't know a million to one.
What are the odds that I would have children in my 50s?
I mean, so I think mine would bedon't let anyone tell you the
odds because that's what will stop you if you are ignorant,
(43:18):
which I was. That's the best way to go
through life if you're if you'rein, you know, some people are
very practical. I would venture to guess that
most of the most famous musicians were impractical.
They just did it because they loved it and no one said, well,
you know, unless you do ABC and D, you're not going to make it.
It's like I'm just going to playmusic and come what may.
(43:39):
And that's sort of been my philosophy too.
So I think that would probably be my overriding in everything
and in professional life and personal life.
So just just swing for it and don't let anyone tell you, you
know, I had a professor in college who said to me, I just
want to save you a bunch of heartache and a lot of time.
(43:59):
You would be much better suited for PR.
Not nothing against you. I just think that you're
probably fine. But I just I know the roads
because blah, blah, blah. And I remember I told my dad
this my my dad before he passed.I said dad.
The guy said I wasn't. I was crying and he was like you
said, it probably wasn't going to be me.
He goes who who said that? I said this professor at what
(44:22):
school? I go my school.
What's your school? Virginia Tech.
What's it known for? Engineering.
What is it not known for? Broadcasting.
Yes. So OK, the man who's the
teaching there doesn't know. OK, don't worry about that.
I was like, OK, you know. But anyway, he just sort of
(44:43):
broke it down until, like, what are you worried about?
This guy don't know. They'll let one man's opinion
change in the course of your life.
Including Jeff Zucker. I mean, in terms of what?
What were those words again? You.
You can't scare me. Exactly.
Well, my dear, I don't think anybody can scare you, but I
think everybody will love you. I think the odds of this episode
(45:05):
being epic, noticing energy and being drawn to energy is what
Hoda is known for. I'm sure along the way people
told you, you have to change your name, my dear, you cannot
have that name, etcetera, etcetera.
People don't care about your name.
They don't care about your wrinkles.
They don't care about your back story.
They care about your front storyand the story of your energy and
(45:29):
how to copy has the best energy in the world.
I love you, Tiff. I love you.
I'm crying now again. I love you.
Wow. Thank you.
Thank you for that. Yeah, this is all about making
people cry. I love you too.
I love you, Chip. All right, I'll see you soon.
OK? I hope so.
All right. Bye, honey.
Bye. Thank you for watching the
(45:50):
Midlife Chrysalis Podcast.
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