May 27, 2025 • 43 mins
Why is making (and keeping) friends as an adult so hard?
In this episode of The Midlife Mud, Morgan and Chris get into the complicated world of adult friendships. From the seasonal besties to the awkward art of making new friends in your 40s, they're unpacking why friendship feels different now—and what to do about it.
They talk about the time crunch of adult life, the courage it takes to be the first to reach out, and why the best friendships often survive long silences. If you’ve ever felt lonely in a room full of people or wondered how to build real connection again, this one’s for you.
Key themes:
- Why adult friendships are harder (and not just for you)
- How to build new connections when you feel like the new kid at school
- What makes a friendship truly deep—and how to keep it that way
Whether you're craving a better connection or trying to revive an old one, this episode is a reminder that you're not alone in the mud.
Referenced in this episode:
- The Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins 📚
- Platonic by Dr. Marisa G. Franco, PhD 📚
- Emily Vondy on Instagram
Want to keep this conversation going? Join the muddy community at themidlifemud.com/join.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Morgan (00:00):
Hello, hello. It's Friday. Friday. Well, for us,
(00:04):
it's Friday. It's almost theweekend. That's
Chris (00:07):
true. What are you gonna do this weekend?
Morgan (00:09):
I think Matt and I are gonna have a little date night
tomorrow night. That'll be fun.
What about you? Any plans
Chris (00:15):
cooking meatballs? It's been a light week at work. It's
interesting. I feel like a lostpuppy, yeah, just the whole flow
of the week I'm going into theweekend from that perspective,
and in some ways it's reallygood, because I have a little
bit more energy than I normallymight, yeah, and I'm currently
(00:37):
getting texts from mygirlfriend, but they're not.
They're from her 11 year old,but from her phone. Oh, yeah,
Morgan (00:44):
anything exciting? Hi bestie. That's a great way to
start a Friday.
Chris (00:50):
It really is. Sometimes it's just the simple things.
Speaking of besties,
Morgan (00:57):
I had dinner last weekend with a friend who I
don't get to see often enough.
But we had one of those dinnersthat just kept going and going
and going because we had so muchto talk about. You know, it's
funny because I told her, I waslike, we need to go someplace
close to my house, because I Ihave to go home and go to bed
like, I don't want to be outlate all this kind of stuff. And
(01:18):
we were out. We were sittingoutside on the porch of the
restaurant, so it basicallyclosed, and we were still
sitting there because we didn'thave to leave. We were there
well past midnight, yeah, whichfor me to stay up even that long
is crazy. But I didn't even knowit was midnight. We were just
talk. I
Chris (01:37):
think that I know the friend that you're talking
about. And, yeah, it's so coolthat the two of you are
connecting like that. That's afriendship that has had many
seasons over many, many years.
Oh,
Morgan (01:48):
very many. Yeah, it is cool. Yeah. It's something that
I'm that I really hold dear. Andthat's kind of what we're going
to talk about today, is thiswhole idea of friendship in
adulthood, because I think it'sreally easy to make adulthood
the focus is more about who yourpartner is. You know, you have a
(02:09):
family, you're focused really onthose things. And work and
friendships go from being oneof, like, the top things in your
life to literally the last,right? Yes,
Chris (02:22):
I love how we're playing a little bit of trapeze from
topic to topic. You know, lasttime, we were talking about
time, and now we're talkingabout friendships. Making
friends and building friendshipstakes time, a lot of time, a lot
of time. I forget the number. Idid quote a number in one of the
podcasts, but it was like over70 hours just to have a casual
(02:46):
friend. And that's not likegoing to yoga class together.
That's one on one, likeintensive time talking and
spending time.
Morgan (02:54):
So it makes sense that that's one of the things that
actually goes to the wayside, isbecause our we're generally
devoting our time to otherthings, right? But what's
interesting about it is we talkabout connection all the time,
and I saw this statistic theother day. It was actually like
a graph that showed the peoplethat you spend time with and how
(03:17):
that graph changes. So they hadone graph for your friends, and
it's like, the beginning of yourlife to the end of your life,
and it's like, really high atthe beginning, and then it just
slopes down and just plateausreally low. And then, you know,
like your spouse or your kids.
So it gets you thinking about,Oh, gosh, that's interesting. It
was fascinating. I saved it.
I'll send it to you, because Ijust thought, Wow, that really
(03:40):
hits home, and we've probablyall heard that one of the
biggest predictors of longevityis community, even more so than
having a healthy diet andexercise. So this whole idea
that who you surround yourselfwith really matters, and that
(04:00):
we're sort of in our currentcentury. We are in this
loneliness epidemic,
Chris (04:06):
wait, but we're supposed to be the most connected that
we've ever been. We're so
Morgan (04:10):
connected. I'm connected. It's pseudo
connection, right? Like it's notreal connection. Yeah, you
Chris (04:16):
and I talk about community a lot, and one of the
focuses of this whole podcastproject for us is around
building community, whichintersects with friendship.
Somehow, when I think aboutconnection, one of the words
that I think about is belonging,right and and belonging fits in
(04:37):
community to me, but it can alsofit in friendship. Yeah,
Morgan (04:41):
I think the unique thing about friendships like let's
talk about that for a second.
When you compare having apartner versus a friendship, I
believe that you should befriends with your partner,
right? There should befriendship there. But when you
compare those two kinds ofrelationships, a significant
other versus a friend.
Friendship. What's the value ofa friendship compared to having
(05:04):
a partner? For you?
Chris (05:06):
Well, they're related.
You know, I think of a partneras all the things of a friend,
and then more, the partner is anadditive, but the friend is the
base, yeah, for me,
Morgan (05:19):
when I think about partners, having a significant
other, you have this sort ofcommon goal, that you're weaving
your lives together, yeah,whereas with a friend, you're
sort of on your own track. Maybethose tracks are parallel, maybe
they're not, but you're notliving your lives woven
together, right? You know, whichI think changes the flavor of
(05:42):
the way that you connect. Itdoes for sure. I guess what I'm
getting as like, why is havingfriendships important in
addition to having a partner, ifhaving a partner is something
that's important to you, becauseit's really easy for us to go,
nope, I don't have time forthat. I've got my significant
other. I've got my family. I'mbusy. So forget friendship.
(06:04):
Like, why is friendshipimportant? The first
Chris (06:06):
word that comes to mind is diversity, having a range of
different people that youconnect with and different ways
that you connect, I think, isimportant, and it's not to take
away from the connection thatyou have with a partner. Yeah,
and there's new on Soul thingstoo, at least. And this is
personal to me, right? Is thereis a difference in connecting
(06:29):
with men and connecting withwomen and connecting with people
that are older in their livesand people that are younger in
their lives. And there's just alot of different experiences and
flavors and that can beintroduced and mingle together
when you have more than onefriend.
Morgan (06:48):
Yeah, for me, the difference between having,
having a partner versus these,these friendships that sort of
sit outside of your familycircle, there's a perspective
thing they can give me yes andthat I can give to them that is
really valuable, that I don'tthink we get with the people
that we have woven our livestogether with as tightly. That's
Chris (07:11):
right. I mean, in a way, that's what I was saying when I
said older people and youngerpeople, and men and women and
like all of those are differentperspectives.
Morgan (07:22):
Yeah. But also, there's something too about even if it's
just a another woman my age,right for her to be sitting on
the outside of my life insteadof being enmeshed with it, she
can see things maybe I can't,right? And so that's also what I
mean about having a perspectivethat's different, because
(07:42):
especially right now in midlife,we are, we have our head down in
the mud. We are really in it. Weare focused on doing all these
things with our family and ourwork and career, and it's nice
to have that sort of fresh Hey,come up for air for a second,
Chris (08:00):
right? I mean, I have friends that are around the same
age as me, and they don't havekids, and the exchange that goes
on, at least, my experience ofthat is really powerful, and I
think it goes both ways. I amreminded of things that maybe
don't come to the forefront ofmy mind in talking with that
(08:22):
person, because their lifeexperience is different, and
they're not balancing kids andall of those things, and then
vice versa. My experience as aparent, I'm just gonna call it,
makes life richer, and I thinkthat is imparted on the other
person too. So it's a fun backand forth. Yeah,
Morgan (08:40):
so there's something about that outside perspective
that can be so valuable. Can wetalk about, let's just get a
general sense of how friendshipchanges. Okay,
Chris (08:50):
so when I ask you, who is your best friend, your first
best friend, like in childhood,what flops to mind? Who? I mean,
you don't have to say the name,but you think of a
Morgan (09:01):
person? Yeah, I know exactly who I'm thinking of. And
so what was that relationshiplike? Well, I think when I was
little, it was just a matter ofwe spent a ton of time together.
We were in school together. It'sdifferent. Now, in Mel Robbins
book, let them, she kind ofgives you that picture of
friendships and how when you'rewhen you're younger, you have
(09:24):
all of this time built in.
You're surrounded by people thatare like your built in friends.
Yeah, so you're spending everyday, every day, with these
people that you've made friendswith. It's easy to make friends
because they're right there. Andusually you go through school
together, and then you gothrough college. And then she
talks about the greatscattering, you know, you get
out of college, you all go yourseparate ways, you get a job
(09:47):
somewhere, and it's different,like, that's when there's this
shift, yeah. And so when you askme about, like, what comes to
mind when you think about yourbest friend for. When you were
little, I have memories being atschool, and that's the thing
too, is we were all doing thesame thing. We were all in the
same classes together. We wereall we had the same sort of
(10:10):
life, and that that changes over
Chris (10:14):
time. Yeah, I'm remembering like if I asked
myself the same question when wegrew up, we had a very active
neighborhood. There were a lotof kids that lived in our
neighborhood, and I can rememberputting on my really tall tube
socks that almost went, like, upto my knee, with like, colored
stripes across the top and yourNike belly shirt, yeah. I mean,
(10:37):
the 70s weren't they weren'tover yet, like they were still
going a little bit. And I wouldgo out into our backyard and
jump the fence and cut throughthe neighbor that lived behind
us and go down the street in theneighboring neighborhood, and
there was a kid there that I wasreally good friends with. And we
(10:59):
would play basketball all day,and we would go out and explore
the woods and just get lostdoing all that stuff. And of
course, we were around the sameage, and we lived in the same
neighborhood, and, like, therewere tons of commonality
Morgan (11:13):
and nothing but time, nothing but time, right?
Chris (11:17):
And so we would just, I mean, it wasn't hard to get to
80 hours, or 250 hours, like wegot
Morgan (11:24):
there quick, yeah, it was like, within a week, yeah,
you're there, you're done, yeah,yeah, that's what I mean. It's
like being at school and gettingtogether at lunch and having the
same classes. There was so muchabout our lives that was so the
same. We were just like, rightthere, yeah. And I think then
when you go into adulthood andyou have your own life and you
(11:45):
have your own different career,maybe you have kids, maybe you
don't, maybe you're married,maybe you're not, that is when
all of all of it gets to belike, Wait, huh? Where did the
friends go and what am Isupposed
Chris (11:58):
to do? Well, one of the things that's coming to me is
the question of community,right? And, you know, friends
emerge from the communities thatwe're in, and when we're kids,
that community is school and ourneighborhood and and then it
shifts to college, and then itshifts to work and family, and
if you have kids, then it shiftsto all of that stuff. Back to
(12:21):
that chart, you know, you cansort of see how that's driving
us, and that is really puttingin front of us the likelihood of
making connections, right? Whowe're gonna make the connection
with, yeah.
Morgan (12:34):
So I think there's a couple things coming up here.
It's like one is, once you're anadult, how do you make new
friends, that is a wholedifferent thing, because you
don't have the built in, builtin structure to do that
necessarily. And the other thingis, how do you maintain and
nurture the deeper friendshipsthat are already there, right?
Like, those are two things toconsider as an adult, yeah, so
(12:58):
let's talk about making newfriends. We'll start there. And
it doesn't have to be making newfriends that are going to become
your absolute best friend andknow your deepest, darkest
secrets. But what does that looklike?
Chris (13:10):
This is a an opportune time for me to ponder this
question, because I am at thispoint where I'm a little bit
playing on the fringes with theempty nest syndrome. So there's
this transition point where allof a sudden I don't have the
same community that I hadbefore, like surrounded me, that
(13:32):
involves the kids, and I havemore time. And so I'm left in
this quandary of, okay, like,how do I make friends? And it's
a little bit awkward. Sometimesit's way awkward. I have this
example, like, there's thisperson now that I felt this
connection to, like we had justa good level of relating points
(13:56):
about life and life experienceand different commonalities and
and I thought, okay, like, wehave a seedling, right? Yeah,
and so I'm just gonna put somewater on it. But it's a little
bit awkward, because I findmyself clumsily, like, how do I
do this? And like, if I text himand then he doesn't text me
(14:18):
back? Like, does that mean hedoesn't want me to text him or
like, if we're just texting andthen, but we really at some
point, if we're gonna befriends, like, we need to get
together and like, and thenthere's like, I don't wanna
disrespect him, and his time'svaluable, and maybe I'm not
like, a priority in his
Morgan (14:35):
time. There's, there's no like protocol. There's no
protocol, right? I mean, whenyou think about dating, you can
kind of think about, okay, I'mat some point in the in the
interaction, it's okay to say,okay, you know, what are we
doing here? Are we? Are weexclusive? Are we not all of
(14:57):
that? So it's, it's sort ofnatural. At some point it's
going to come up a discussionabout the nature of your
relationship, right? Thatdoesn't happen with friendships
as much, right? It hasn't forme. And so there is a little bit
of a, okay, do they like me? Dothey not like me? Are they just
being polite? Do we take this tothe next level, where we spend
(15:20):
more time together. It just it,it feels that's where that
awkwardness, I think, comes in,is because there's no explicit
conversation, and also there'sno like, you're lucky you you
just said, there, there's aseedling there. You found
someone that's Oh, and that'sjust sort of naturally happened
for you. What about if we're outthere just looking like, I want
(15:40):
to have more friends. It's notlike there's a online app that
you can connect with. I don'tknow, maybe people use like
Tinder or something that likeswipe right or left. You know,
not that I would want to usethat, but that's how people
that's how people find people todate these days, I'm told. So
how do you find these friends?
First of all, and then yeah. Howdo you figure out how to
(16:02):
navigate into more of aconnection or a deeper
connection? One
Chris (16:08):
of the things is just time and creating the space. If
you don't create space and timeto develop friendships, it'll
never happen. One of my bestfriends, he is the master of
creating, like, these microcommunities. He's just like,
Okay, you, you, you, you, you'recoming over at 7pm and bring
(16:28):
this, this and this, and we'regonna be doing this activity.
And it just works. That'samazing. Not only does he
cultivate his own friendships,yeah, he like, cross pollinates
friendships. It's a masterfulthing to love. Yeah,
Morgan (16:43):
yeah. You know, that's interesting. I have a friend
like that, also, she's veryextroverted. And for me, as an
introverted person, I do tend togravitate towards people that
are like that so that I can likethey're like
Chris (16:57):
the wind and you're the little seed. You're like, Please
blow me to a fertile soil. Yeah?
Morgan (17:05):
So there's an opportunity to, sort of, for
lack of a better word, networkwith friends of other friends,
sometimes, is what you'resaying, yeah?
Chris (17:14):
Well, it's just creating those opportunities, you know?
And I think that the further weget into life, and there's all
of these other competingpriorities that are probably
more comfortable and easier topour ourselves into, yeah,
because, like, we've beentalking about, it's a little bit
of a quandary, like, how am Isupposed to go make a friend?
(17:35):
Like, come on, the hell has timefor that? I'd rather just go
watch a show, yeah, or whatever,you know
Morgan (17:41):
well. And what I'm hearing you say is, like, create
the opportunity do something,right? Yeah. And I think that
looks like, what is somethingthat you like to do? You know?
What is something where,somewhere, get out, go
somewhere, do something that youlike to do, so that you might
encounter people who like to dothe same thing, that sort of
(18:03):
shared experience that can bethe connecting point as a
jumping off. Yeah.
Chris (18:07):
So an example that I have of that is going back to my
early 20s. I started mountainbiking, and that is a very
active community, and you know,most a lot of the regions, at
least in New England anyway,they have local mountain bike
associations, which are groupsof people that get together and
(18:28):
ride, and they also go out andbuild and maintain trails, yeah.
And so there's a whole range ofthings that you can get involved
in. And actually, the briefperiod of time that I was in
Kentucky last year, I would goride my mountain bike, and I
would meet people that weredoing this again, communities.
And you know, those are greatplaces to kind of park and hang
(18:53):
out and look for opportunitiesfor people to connect with,
yeah, because you're findingthat common ground
Morgan (19:00):
for someone like me who's probably less active like
I, I really enjoy sitting on mycouch. How can I make friends
doing that?
Chris (19:15):
Oh, Matt, I'm sorry I
Morgan (19:20):
it is it is, it is. It is incredibly awkward for me,
but
Chris (19:24):
you have made a lot of progress. I have. I want to
recognize that like we weretalking about last year. I think
it was last year you and I had anumber of conversations in which
you said something to the effectof, I really, really want to
make friends and it I know it'shard for me to do that, but I'm
just gonna do it. And you did.
You've taken some
Morgan (19:47):
steps well. And when you say taken some steps, the
important thing is takinginitiative, right? I am not
typically the initiator ofanything when it comes to
interacting with other people.
People I wait to be spoken to. Iwait to be asked to go to
dinner. I wait, I wait, I wait.
(20:08):
And so sitting on my couchwaiting, I'm not going to make
any new friends, right? And so,yes, there was a moment, I don't
know, a year or two ago where Ithought, well, I'm going to be
really intentional about makingnew friends or nurturing the
friendships I already have,right? So that did look like me
awkwardly reaching out to acouple of people that that
(20:29):
again, there was a commoninterest. There was something
that we that we did together. Wevolunteered at the farm with the
horses and all that kind ofstuff. So it's like, okay,
there's there's something there.
And I enjoy being around thesepeople. Let's, let's see if we
can go to dinner. So
Chris (20:44):
the horses are like, here, mountain biking, right?
Okay, yeah, we're doing good,yeah.
Morgan (20:51):
And so I did, I did the awkward thing. Now I did it by
text message. It was like, hey.
So I was thinking,
Chris (20:59):
Did you, I'm curious, like, did you actually put a few
extra E's in the hay, or Iprobably
Morgan (21:05):
spelled it, H, A, y, just kidding.
Chris (21:09):
That would have been clever shit. If you would have
sent me that, I would have beenyour friend.
Morgan (21:15):
Okay? But to your point, like it does feel, it felt a
little bit like asking peopleout on a date. You know, it's so
weird. It's so weird. But Ijust, I base, I don't remember
exactly what I said, but it wassomething to the effect of, we
should all go to dinnersometime. I'm really looking to
make more friends. I just put itout there, you know, which some
(21:38):
people might have been like, ohmy god, loser. But it was
important for me to just name itso that I felt a little bit less
awkward. And, you know, take itor leave it. But we did. We went
out a couple of different timesand had a really good time. We
haven't continued that, but itwas a great exercise for me to
(21:58):
realize that I can be the one toYeah. To be the initiator,
right? And not only that, but inthis stage of life, we have to
be really intentional. We can'tjust wait until everybody else
is not busy to reach out to usand say, Hey, let's go. Let's go
out to dinner. Let's go mountainbiking
Chris (22:19):
or, yeah, well, we can't.
It's not fair to assign busynessto someone else, like, that's
their choice to make. Yeah, andhow they prioritize their time
is their choice to make. Like, Ican't forecast that,
Morgan (22:31):
and I think it's important to to extend grace to
people, you know, like it's itcan feel sometimes like, oh,
that friend doesn't care aboutme, or I'm not important,
because they don't have time forme, right? The reality is like
there's not a lot of time,right? I know that from my own
(22:52):
experience, and I know that Icare about the friends that I
have, and so I hope that theydon't take it personally. If it
takes me two days to respond toa
Chris (23:01):
text, right? I want to go back to your story about asking
people to dinner. And one of thethings that I heard there, that
I love, and I think it's worthcalling out, is for you to do
that was a level ofvulnerability. You had to say, I
am looking for friends, and I'masking for that, and that does
(23:21):
feel, can feel a little bitawkward, and back to friendship
at its deepest level, thosepeople that are on the short
list, so to speak, that's reallywhat happens in those kinds of
friendships, is just, I'm gonnacall it the naked Soul. It's
like you are just who you are,and they are who they are, and
(23:44):
that's what it is, yeah, andthat's what those deep, running
friendships are, at least forme. And you don't start there,
right, but don't, but you canset the tone, and that's why I'm
calling this out, because youmaking that reach, regardless of
whether it developed oranything, it was setting a tone,
yes, and the tone was like, Thisis what I'm looking for, and
(24:08):
whether they met you with thator not, isn't the point? The
point is that's the tone youset. Yes,
Morgan (24:14):
I am tired myself, personally, of these very
surfacey sort of interactionsthat I have with other adults
these very like, oh, wine nightat so and so's house, and we're
gonna have a conversation for 30seconds about something really
mundane and like, surfacey, likeI am just really my time is
(24:39):
important and valuable to me,much like everybody else's is to
them. And I just don't, I don'tfucking have time for that. If
I'm going to spend time outsideof my busy life, day to day
life, I want it to be juicy,like I want it to be meaningful.
And so those are the kinds offriends. Tips that I want well,
(25:01):
and
Chris (25:01):
I think that the power of understanding that is that you
can just get to the point, yeah.
Like, back to the idea that timeis a valuable resource. So,
like, if you're gonna have acertain amount of time dedicated
towards friendships, whetherthat's developing, fostering
rekindling or whatever, like,make it valuable, yeah,
Morgan (25:22):
show up and and let's talk about something fucking
real, right? One of the otherthings that I've done, okay, but
my cross pollinator friend, sheis one, one of these people that
knows everybody in the world,okay? Everybody knows who this
person is, right? I know who itis. You know who it is.
Everybody knows who this personis. And I actually told her, I
(25:45):
said, Listen, I really am in themarket to engage in some
friendships, yeah, because I hadfelt really isolated since,
like, since quarantine, youknow, I had noticed there had
been a real drop off. And so Imentioned that to her back when
I was being intentional aboutthis. And so she's like, You
know what, I am in a book clubthat you would probably love,
(26:05):
and that was right up my alley,because these are people who
like to read, and they like toread real books that have some
interesting underlying themethat brings about some real
conversation. And so she said.
And I looked at her, and I waslike, Okay, wait, is this like,
you read the book, and then yougo and you party because I don't
do and then you're hung over thenext day because I don't want to
(26:28):
do that. She's like, No, no, weactually talk about the book.
And it's like, an hour and ahalf, and you're done, and you
go home. And I was like, Thissounds to
Chris (26:39):
be true. You mean, I can still sit on the couch,
Morgan (26:46):
and so she invited me to go, and it's I've been doing it
ever since we meet once a month.
And I love it. I love it becausewhat it does is it allows me to
be around these women who havedifferent sorts of lives, you
know, but we talk aboutsomething real, and even if I
don't connect with these womenoutside of book club, that may
(27:08):
change, I don't know, but as ofright now, it's it's still
pretty much confined to that itis just a lovely experience, And
I leave there almost everysingle time, feeling like, wow,
that was the best way to spendthat hour and a half. Yeah,
like, it brings me life. So arethere any things that you do
(27:29):
right now to sort of foster newconnections, make new
friendships? No, that's notreally on your radar as much
Chris (27:40):
well as I've kind of alluded to, I am straddling a
couple of different worlds, andwhat it feels like is this, on a
weekly basis, I'm by myself allweek, and I work and, you know,
I do like I always have beensomeone who's pretty good at
picking up The phone andmaintaining connection. You are
(28:02):
good at that. Yeah, so I stilldo that. I've always done that.
It's not a particularly newthing, but in terms of, like,
other things, I would like toget into the mountain biking,
but the days are starting to getlonger, so there's more light
and there's more opportunity todo stuff after work right now at
this time in the year, but thenon the weekend, I'm really busy
(28:23):
with my girlfriend and her kids,and, you know, we're doing
stuff, so I'm kind of back intothat life, right? I'm going back
and forth,
Morgan (28:32):
yeah, well, and you bring up a point there, and you
sort of touched on it earlier,when you're in the life with
your partner and her kids,right? And their friends
parents, right? You sort of havethis a little bit of a built in.
There's like a sweet spot inyour kids lives where you're
(28:53):
hanging out with those parents alot, right?
Chris (28:56):
And you know, for us, my partner and her kids, we've
actually gone on trips withparents of the kids friends, and
spent a lot of time and done alot of things, and that has been
rewarding and fun, and there isthis great level of commonality
in the kids, but thosefriendships are different than
(29:18):
the ones that are just sort ofborn from me showing up and
saying, You know what? Like, I'mChris Peterson, and this is what
I'm about, and the other personsaying, I'm so and so, and this
is what I'm about, and thenthere being a connection, and to
the point of the short list andthese friends that are at the
(29:38):
deepest level, I do think that,if we're lucky in a lifetime, we
have a couple of those, youknow, and that doesn't discount
the power of other friendshipsthat are maybe not as deep at
all. Yeah, I love those. But thecommon theme is putting yourself
out there, and when you get tothat inner. Direction of the
(30:01):
great scattering of the familylife, right? Yeah, like the
empty nest, yeah. There's amoment where that takes on new
light, at least it has for me.
And that's a little bit of thatpicking up of what I remember
from being a youth is like, I'mnot showing up as a
representation of my child or mypartner's children, or I'm just
(30:22):
me again. Yeah, right, who theWho's that? It's cool, though I
like it,
Morgan (30:31):
yeah, well, and I think that's what you're talking about
when you when you say, Okay,what is it about these deeper
friendships, your ride or dies?
Yeah, what are the qualitiesthat are showing up there that
make it so deep and meaningful.
It's authenticity. It's showingup as who you are. Yes,
Chris (30:47):
in fact, when Jamie and I get together, his wife will be
like, Oh, God, you guys aregetting together, and she calls
our friendship a bromance. But,you know, the way that I
translate that is, it's complex.
It's a complex relationship, andit runs on many levels. And at
the core of it, it really isjust a lot of vulnerability. And
(31:08):
I remember there was oneparticular moment years ago when
we were having a conversationand he said something like he
just looked at me, and I can'tremember what we were talking
about, but it was heavy. And hesaid, Why do you just it's like,
you just reach into the guts ofit and just pull it out and put
(31:30):
it on the table and say, we'regonna talk about this. Yeah. And
he's like, then I feel like Ihave to talk about it.
Morgan (31:39):
You know, I'm really curious, being a man, this whole
idea of a bromance, yes? Like, Ithink it's easier for women.
Women can live in a little bitmore of this vulnerable state.
Like, it's more, quote,acceptable, right? How do you
think that impacts men infriendships? Yeah, I think
Chris (31:58):
that it, it can be really hard. It's not as well accepted
for men to be physicallyaffectionate, hug each other and
just be close, and at least notin a lot of cultures, and I
would include ours in that Idon't know. It does get a little
bit more complicated, and thatwhole idea of the balance
(32:20):
between masculinity and beingvulnerable and more explicit
about the emotional side of lifeand some of those other
feelings, right? And I wouldsay, like in my experience of
what Jamie's wife calls abromance, like it's the it's the
whole range, right? There's alot of masculinity, yeah, but
(32:42):
there's also a lot of the otherstuff too, yeah, right, because
we're all just people, and how
Morgan (32:48):
did that happen? Do you think, Oh, my God, like for
other men out there that maybewant that, but don't know. I'm
just curious. Is that somethingyou were even conscious of?
Chris (32:58):
Well, when we first met, we hated each other. Are you
serious? I didn't know that.
Yeah, we did. There was likethis competitive thing that went
on. And then for whateverreason, we actually finally had
a real conversation, like we hadjust been posturing at each
other, basically. And this islike 20 something year old,
yeah, years and years ago, andfor whatever reason, we had an
(33:21):
actual conversation, and thatwas it like there was just a
sync up almost immediately, atleast in my experience, and that
sort of connection just grewnaturally. And I think there's
just some level of, I don't knowwhat to call it, chance or luck
or fate. Yeah, if we're lucky,we encounter that sort of
(33:44):
connection a couple times in alifetime, or hopefully more, but
and
Morgan (33:51):
hold on to it. What's also interesting too is, for
example, Jamie right? Jamie'ssomeone who lives not right next
to you. He is not someone thatyou see every day or talk to
every day. For me, I've got afriend that is that way, and
there's something really coolabout being able to whenever we
do get together. And I'm curiousif this is your experience with
(34:13):
Jamie, whenever we do gettogether, it's like this instant
reconnect, and we almost likedownload all the information
Yeah, that we need to to know,to just get caught back up and
then get back into the deeperstuff. Yeah, you know what I
mean I do. It's not just like,well, how are you and what are
you up to, and, let alone, youknow, we get to the meat of
Chris (34:33):
it, yeah? Like, the analogy that I think about is
it's almost like the friendshipgoes into this deep freeze,
yeah, and then it's just like,Flash thought, yeah, when you
get together, you know thatconnection is just somehow been
put in a suspended state, andthen
Morgan (34:49):
it reawakens, which I think is really cool to have
that kind of connection. It
Chris (34:53):
is. And there's a bit of that to me that's very
mysterious. I can't reallyexplain why that. And with some
people. And the other thing thatI think is really interesting,
if I think about, like, longterm connections with people. So
there are from that period inlife, before the first grade,
scattering College and theleaving of the family unit that
(35:17):
we grew up in. There are twopeople that I still stay
connected with, not on a like,really constant level. It's
pretty distant. But when I talkwith either one of them, it's
almost like tapping into acertain layer of life like it.
It almost takes me back a littlebit to the layer when that
(35:39):
friendship was more active. Doesthat make sense? Yeah, it's
like, I've heard this anecdotebefore that sometimes when you
get together with old collegebuddies, you start feeling like
you're acting like you're incollege again. It's that sort of
thing. Yeah, friends
Morgan (35:54):
can sort of be snapshots of yourself, yeah? Weird way,
Chris (35:59):
a version of yourself and or like the life that was
surrounding you at that time andthe feelings that were involved
in that so how
Morgan (36:08):
do we stay a good friend? Well,
Chris (36:10):
I think part of being a good friend is and this
correlates with beingvulnerable, but it it's the
ability to be present and reallyjust show up and be there. And
you know, the honest truth is,what makes these deep
friendships, what really drivesthem is like those tough moments
(36:33):
when the person just sits withyou, or you sit with them, yeah,
and it's the deepest, mostcathartic acceptance of the fact
that we don't know what the fuckwe're doing, but we're just
doing it together. That
Morgan (36:46):
goes back to that vulnerability and that feeling
safe enough with someone,because when you're doing that,
when you're showing up, feelingsafe and secure. You know, I
read this book called platonicby Marisa Franco, which I'll
link in the show notes. But shetalks about how when you are not
(37:06):
being self protective, youaren't worried about defending
yourself, you're not puttingyour time and energy into that
right gives the space and theair for you to take care of the
relationship itself, yes, andthat is where that depth and
meaning is born.
Chris (37:24):
And I love that you went a little further into that,
because that putting down of thearmor, or letting go of the self
protection, is what allows thespace to be present. Yeah, to
really be present. What's
Morgan (37:39):
your micronutrients from this,
Chris (37:41):
that it's important to dedicate some time to
friendships, and that showing upauthentically is an important
piece. It's also like a good wayto be efficient about using that
time is showing upauthentically, and that
rekindling a friendship and ormaintaining a friendship and, or
(38:02):
developing a friendship includesspending intensive time and
doing big things sometimes, butit doesn't always have to. And I
think as we have thisdiscussion, I'm reminded that
those little investments ofsending that photo of something
that you both like or relate toor, yeah, those things done over
(38:26):
time, they just add up. Yeah,
Morgan (38:29):
it's the little things.
Yeah. What about you? All ofwhat you said, I agree. The
thing I'm working on morecontinuing to work on is this
whole being the initiator, beingproactive. Yeah? Because I'm
just not great at that anyway,in a lot of areas of my life.
But I have seen that even indoing the awkward thing, taking
(38:50):
the awkward step, it's worthdoing to spark something, and
also I kind of want to normalizejust actually having a
conversation with someone whoI'm interested in actually
having a deeper friendship with,right? You know, like, I just
think that could be beneficial.
Yeah, I was listening to one ofmy favorite Emily Von D. She's
(39:14):
she's on Instagram. She cracksme up. And I watched one of her
stories on Instagram once shewas sitting in her car, and
actually one of her kids was inher car seat asleep or
something. So she's just sittingin the car talking to the phone.
She said, she's like, Oh my god,I'm so embarrassed. I went to
the my kids carpool line, andlike, she had gone out for
(39:37):
margaritas or something at somepoint with with one of these
ladies, and she's like, Oh mygod, I found out that we we have
a mutual friend and such a shewas so excited. She's like, so
we just had the greatest time.
And I was just like, Oh my gosh.
Is she feeling this? I'm feelingthis. You know, it's just like,
and she said, so then I saw herin standing outside the school
(39:59):
at. Drop off time, and I walkedup to her, and she was, like,
talking to the principal of theschool or something, and I
smacked her on the butt, justlike, as a joke, and she's like,
and I immediately regretted it.
We're not there yet. And Iloved, I just loved witnessing
(40:20):
her inner dialog about this,because it is so much of like, I
don't know, like, what, whatlevel are we, you know, and
what's okay and what's not okay.
And it just felt so real.
Chris (40:34):
And the funny thing is, like, we talk about that a lot
in romantic relationships, butthat same sort of tension and
confusion and insecurity showsup in in all relationships. Yes,
yeah, very much. So it justseems less accepted to talk
about it like in the friendshipsetting. I don't know, yeah, so
Morgan (40:54):
I guess that's part of what I'm saying is like, I want
to normalize that a little bit.
Yeah, not that I'm saying wegotta put pressure or labels on
things well, but like, what harmwould it be to say I re like, I
really love hanging out withyou. Like, right? I consider you
a good friend. So
Chris (41:10):
the phrase that keeps ringing in my head right now is,
don't make a big deal about it.
Just make the reach and see whathappens. Yeah, doesn't have
Morgan (41:19):
to be a big thing, but it can be hugely valuable, for
sure, to do it and to hear it,to be on the receiving end of
something like that. Wow. Likeif someone said that to me and I
wasn't necessarily expecting it,that would feel nice, right? So
I have some awkward texts tosend good make
Chris (41:34):
them funny. I'm happy to pre review.
Morgan (41:38):
Oh, and if you want to be our friend, join our
community
Chris (41:41):
at the midlife mud.com/join
Morgan (41:44):
all right. Well, we will see you next time in the mud.
Hello, hello. It's Friday. Friday. Well, for us,
(00:04):
it's Friday. It's almost theweekend. That's
Chris (00:07):
true. What are you gonna do this weekend?
Morgan (00:09):
I think Matt and I are gonna have a little date night
tomorrow night. That'll be fun.
What about you? Any plans
Chris (00:15):
cooking meatballs? It's been a light week at work. It's
interesting. I feel like a lostpuppy, yeah, just the whole flow
of the week I'm going into theweekend from that perspective,
and in some ways it's reallygood, because I have a little
bit more energy than I normallymight, yeah, and I'm currently
(00:37):
getting texts from mygirlfriend, but they're not.
They're from her 11 year old,but from her phone. Oh, yeah,
Morgan (00:44):
anything exciting? Hi bestie. That's a great way to
start a Friday.
Chris (00:50):
It really is. Sometimes it's just the simple things.
Speaking of besties,
Morgan (00:57):
I had dinner last weekend with a friend who I
don't get to see often enough.
But we had one of those dinnersthat just kept going and going
and going because we had so muchto talk about. You know, it's
funny because I told her, I waslike, we need to go someplace
close to my house, because I Ihave to go home and go to bed
like, I don't want to be outlate all this kind of stuff. And
(01:18):
we were out. We were sittingoutside on the porch of the
restaurant, so it basicallyclosed, and we were still
sitting there because we didn'thave to leave. We were there
well past midnight, yeah, whichfor me to stay up even that long
is crazy. But I didn't even knowit was midnight. We were just
talk. I
Chris (01:37):
think that I know the friend that you're talking
about. And, yeah, it's so coolthat the two of you are
connecting like that. That's afriendship that has had many
seasons over many, many years.
Oh,
Morgan (01:48):
very many. Yeah, it is cool. Yeah. It's something that
I'm that I really hold dear. Andthat's kind of what we're going
to talk about today, is thiswhole idea of friendship in
adulthood, because I think it'sreally easy to make adulthood
the focus is more about who yourpartner is. You know, you have a
(02:09):
family, you're focused really onthose things. And work and
friendships go from being oneof, like, the top things in your
life to literally the last,right? Yes,
Chris (02:22):
I love how we're playing a little bit of trapeze from
topic to topic. You know, lasttime, we were talking about
time, and now we're talkingabout friendships. Making
friends and building friendshipstakes time, a lot of time, a lot
of time. I forget the number. Idid quote a number in one of the
podcasts, but it was like over70 hours just to have a casual
(02:46):
friend. And that's not likegoing to yoga class together.
That's one on one, likeintensive time talking and
spending time.
Morgan (02:54):
So it makes sense that that's one of the things that
actually goes to the wayside, isbecause our we're generally
devoting our time to otherthings, right? But what's
interesting about it is we talkabout connection all the time,
and I saw this statistic theother day. It was actually like
a graph that showed the peoplethat you spend time with and how
(03:17):
that graph changes. So they hadone graph for your friends, and
it's like, the beginning of yourlife to the end of your life,
and it's like, really high atthe beginning, and then it just
slopes down and just plateausreally low. And then, you know,
like your spouse or your kids.
So it gets you thinking about,Oh, gosh, that's interesting. It
was fascinating. I saved it.
I'll send it to you, because Ijust thought, Wow, that really
(03:40):
hits home, and we've probablyall heard that one of the
biggest predictors of longevityis community, even more so than
having a healthy diet andexercise. So this whole idea
that who you surround yourselfwith really matters, and that
(04:00):
we're sort of in our currentcentury. We are in this
loneliness epidemic,
Chris (04:06):
wait, but we're supposed to be the most connected that
we've ever been. We're so
Morgan (04:10):
connected. I'm connected. It's pseudo
connection, right? Like it's notreal connection. Yeah, you
Chris (04:16):
and I talk about community a lot, and one of the
focuses of this whole podcastproject for us is around
building community, whichintersects with friendship.
Somehow, when I think aboutconnection, one of the words
that I think about is belonging,right and and belonging fits in
(04:37):
community to me, but it can alsofit in friendship. Yeah,
Morgan (04:41):
I think the unique thing about friendships like let's
talk about that for a second.
When you compare having apartner versus a friendship, I
believe that you should befriends with your partner,
right? There should befriendship there. But when you
compare those two kinds ofrelationships, a significant
other versus a friend.
Friendship. What's the value ofa friendship compared to having
(05:04):
a partner? For you?
Chris (05:06):
Well, they're related.
You know, I think of a partneras all the things of a friend,
and then more, the partner is anadditive, but the friend is the
base, yeah, for me,
Morgan (05:19):
when I think about partners, having a significant
other, you have this sort ofcommon goal, that you're weaving
your lives together, yeah,whereas with a friend, you're
sort of on your own track. Maybethose tracks are parallel, maybe
they're not, but you're notliving your lives woven
together, right? You know, whichI think changes the flavor of
(05:42):
the way that you connect. Itdoes for sure. I guess what I'm
getting as like, why is havingfriendships important in
addition to having a partner, ifhaving a partner is something
that's important to you, becauseit's really easy for us to go,
nope, I don't have time forthat. I've got my significant
other. I've got my family. I'mbusy. So forget friendship.
(06:04):
Like, why is friendshipimportant? The first
Chris (06:06):
word that comes to mind is diversity, having a range of
different people that youconnect with and different ways
that you connect, I think, isimportant, and it's not to take
away from the connection thatyou have with a partner. Yeah,
and there's new on Soul thingstoo, at least. And this is
personal to me, right? Is thereis a difference in connecting
(06:29):
with men and connecting withwomen and connecting with people
that are older in their livesand people that are younger in
their lives. And there's just alot of different experiences and
flavors and that can beintroduced and mingle together
when you have more than onefriend.
Morgan (06:48):
Yeah, for me, the difference between having,
having a partner versus these,these friendships that sort of
sit outside of your familycircle, there's a perspective
thing they can give me yes andthat I can give to them that is
really valuable, that I don'tthink we get with the people
that we have woven our livestogether with as tightly. That's
Chris (07:11):
right. I mean, in a way, that's what I was saying when I
said older people and youngerpeople, and men and women and
like all of those are differentperspectives.
Morgan (07:22):
Yeah. But also, there's something too about even if it's
just a another woman my age,right for her to be sitting on
the outside of my life insteadof being enmeshed with it, she
can see things maybe I can't,right? And so that's also what I
mean about having a perspectivethat's different, because
(07:42):
especially right now in midlife,we are, we have our head down in
the mud. We are really in it. Weare focused on doing all these
things with our family and ourwork and career, and it's nice
to have that sort of fresh Hey,come up for air for a second,
Chris (08:00):
right? I mean, I have friends that are around the same
age as me, and they don't havekids, and the exchange that goes
on, at least, my experience ofthat is really powerful, and I
think it goes both ways. I amreminded of things that maybe
don't come to the forefront ofmy mind in talking with that
(08:22):
person, because their lifeexperience is different, and
they're not balancing kids andall of those things, and then
vice versa. My experience as aparent, I'm just gonna call it,
makes life richer, and I thinkthat is imparted on the other
person too. So it's a fun backand forth. Yeah,
Morgan (08:40):
so there's something about that outside perspective
that can be so valuable. Can wetalk about, let's just get a
general sense of how friendshipchanges. Okay,
Chris (08:50):
so when I ask you, who is your best friend, your first
best friend, like in childhood,what flops to mind? Who? I mean,
you don't have to say the name,but you think of a
Morgan (09:01):
person? Yeah, I know exactly who I'm thinking of. And
so what was that relationshiplike? Well, I think when I was
little, it was just a matter ofwe spent a ton of time together.
We were in school together. It'sdifferent. Now, in Mel Robbins
book, let them, she kind ofgives you that picture of
friendships and how when you'rewhen you're younger, you have
(09:24):
all of this time built in.
You're surrounded by people thatare like your built in friends.
Yeah, so you're spending everyday, every day, with these
people that you've made friendswith. It's easy to make friends
because they're right there. Andusually you go through school
together, and then you gothrough college. And then she
talks about the greatscattering, you know, you get
out of college, you all go yourseparate ways, you get a job
(09:47):
somewhere, and it's different,like, that's when there's this
shift, yeah. And so when you askme about, like, what comes to
mind when you think about yourbest friend for. When you were
little, I have memories being atschool, and that's the thing
too, is we were all doing thesame thing. We were all in the
same classes together. We wereall we had the same sort of
(10:10):
life, and that that changes over
Chris (10:14):
time. Yeah, I'm remembering like if I asked
myself the same question when wegrew up, we had a very active
neighborhood. There were a lotof kids that lived in our
neighborhood, and I can rememberputting on my really tall tube
socks that almost went, like, upto my knee, with like, colored
stripes across the top and yourNike belly shirt, yeah. I mean,
(10:37):
the 70s weren't they weren'tover yet, like they were still
going a little bit. And I wouldgo out into our backyard and
jump the fence and cut throughthe neighbor that lived behind
us and go down the street in theneighboring neighborhood, and
there was a kid there that I wasreally good friends with. And we
(10:59):
would play basketball all day,and we would go out and explore
the woods and just get lostdoing all that stuff. And of
course, we were around the sameage, and we lived in the same
neighborhood, and, like, therewere tons of commonality
Morgan (11:13):
and nothing but time, nothing but time, right?
Chris (11:17):
And so we would just, I mean, it wasn't hard to get to
80 hours, or 250 hours, like wegot
Morgan (11:24):
there quick, yeah, it was like, within a week, yeah,
you're there, you're done, yeah,yeah, that's what I mean. It's
like being at school and gettingtogether at lunch and having the
same classes. There was so muchabout our lives that was so the
same. We were just like, rightthere, yeah. And I think then
when you go into adulthood andyou have your own life and you
(11:45):
have your own different career,maybe you have kids, maybe you
don't, maybe you're married,maybe you're not, that is when
all of all of it gets to belike, Wait, huh? Where did the
friends go and what am Isupposed
Chris (11:58):
to do? Well, one of the things that's coming to me is
the question of community,right? And, you know, friends
emerge from the communities thatwe're in, and when we're kids,
that community is school and ourneighborhood and and then it
shifts to college, and then itshifts to work and family, and
if you have kids, then it shiftsto all of that stuff. Back to
(12:21):
that chart, you know, you cansort of see how that's driving
us, and that is really puttingin front of us the likelihood of
making connections, right? Whowe're gonna make the connection
with, yeah.
Morgan (12:34):
So I think there's a couple things coming up here.
It's like one is, once you're anadult, how do you make new
friends, that is a wholedifferent thing, because you
don't have the built in, builtin structure to do that
necessarily. And the other thingis, how do you maintain and
nurture the deeper friendshipsthat are already there, right?
Like, those are two things toconsider as an adult, yeah, so
(12:58):
let's talk about making newfriends. We'll start there. And
it doesn't have to be making newfriends that are going to become
your absolute best friend andknow your deepest, darkest
secrets. But what does that looklike?
Chris (13:10):
This is a an opportune time for me to ponder this
question, because I am at thispoint where I'm a little bit
playing on the fringes with theempty nest syndrome. So there's
this transition point where allof a sudden I don't have the
same community that I hadbefore, like surrounded me, that
(13:32):
involves the kids, and I havemore time. And so I'm left in
this quandary of, okay, like,how do I make friends? And it's
a little bit awkward. Sometimesit's way awkward. I have this
example, like, there's thisperson now that I felt this
connection to, like we had justa good level of relating points
(13:56):
about life and life experienceand different commonalities and
and I thought, okay, like, wehave a seedling, right? Yeah,
and so I'm just gonna put somewater on it. But it's a little
bit awkward, because I findmyself clumsily, like, how do I
do this? And like, if I text himand then he doesn't text me
(14:18):
back? Like, does that mean hedoesn't want me to text him or
like, if we're just texting andthen, but we really at some
point, if we're gonna befriends, like, we need to get
together and like, and thenthere's like, I don't wanna
disrespect him, and his time'svaluable, and maybe I'm not
like, a priority in his
Morgan (14:35):
time. There's, there's no like protocol. There's no
protocol, right? I mean, whenyou think about dating, you can
kind of think about, okay, I'mat some point in the in the
interaction, it's okay to say,okay, you know, what are we
doing here? Are we? Are weexclusive? Are we not all of
(14:57):
that? So it's, it's sort ofnatural. At some point it's
going to come up a discussionabout the nature of your
relationship, right? Thatdoesn't happen with friendships
as much, right? It hasn't forme. And so there is a little bit
of a, okay, do they like me? Dothey not like me? Are they just
being polite? Do we take this tothe next level, where we spend
(15:20):
more time together. It just it,it feels that's where that
awkwardness, I think, comes in,is because there's no explicit
conversation, and also there'sno like, you're lucky you you
just said, there, there's aseedling there. You found
someone that's Oh, and that'sjust sort of naturally happened
for you. What about if we're outthere just looking like, I want
(15:40):
to have more friends. It's notlike there's a online app that
you can connect with. I don'tknow, maybe people use like
Tinder or something that likeswipe right or left. You know,
not that I would want to usethat, but that's how people
that's how people find people todate these days, I'm told. So
how do you find these friends?
First of all, and then yeah. Howdo you figure out how to
(16:02):
navigate into more of aconnection or a deeper
connection? One
Chris (16:08):
of the things is just time and creating the space. If
you don't create space and timeto develop friendships, it'll
never happen. One of my bestfriends, he is the master of
creating, like, these microcommunities. He's just like,
Okay, you, you, you, you, you'recoming over at 7pm and bring
(16:28):
this, this and this, and we'regonna be doing this activity.
And it just works. That'samazing. Not only does he
cultivate his own friendships,yeah, he like, cross pollinates
friendships. It's a masterfulthing to love. Yeah,
Morgan (16:43):
yeah. You know, that's interesting. I have a friend
like that, also, she's veryextroverted. And for me, as an
introverted person, I do tend togravitate towards people that
are like that so that I can likethey're like
Chris (16:57):
the wind and you're the little seed. You're like, Please
blow me to a fertile soil. Yeah?
Morgan (17:05):
So there's an opportunity to, sort of, for
lack of a better word, networkwith friends of other friends,
sometimes, is what you'resaying, yeah?
Chris (17:14):
Well, it's just creating those opportunities, you know?
And I think that the further weget into life, and there's all
of these other competingpriorities that are probably
more comfortable and easier topour ourselves into, yeah,
because, like, we've beentalking about, it's a little bit
of a quandary, like, how am Isupposed to go make a friend?
(17:35):
Like, come on, the hell has timefor that? I'd rather just go
watch a show, yeah, or whatever,you know
Morgan (17:41):
well. And what I'm hearing you say is, like, create
the opportunity do something,right? Yeah. And I think that
looks like, what is somethingthat you like to do? You know?
What is something where,somewhere, get out, go
somewhere, do something that youlike to do, so that you might
encounter people who like to dothe same thing, that sort of
(18:03):
shared experience that can bethe connecting point as a
jumping off. Yeah.
Chris (18:07):
So an example that I have of that is going back to my
early 20s. I started mountainbiking, and that is a very
active community, and you know,most a lot of the regions, at
least in New England anyway,they have local mountain bike
associations, which are groupsof people that get together and
(18:28):
ride, and they also go out andbuild and maintain trails, yeah.
And so there's a whole range ofthings that you can get involved
in. And actually, the briefperiod of time that I was in
Kentucky last year, I would goride my mountain bike, and I
would meet people that weredoing this again, communities.
And you know, those are greatplaces to kind of park and hang
(18:53):
out and look for opportunitiesfor people to connect with,
yeah, because you're findingthat common ground
Morgan (19:00):
for someone like me who's probably less active like
I, I really enjoy sitting on mycouch. How can I make friends
doing that?
Chris (19:15):
Oh, Matt, I'm sorry I
Morgan (19:20):
it is it is, it is. It is incredibly awkward for me,
but
Chris (19:24):
you have made a lot of progress. I have. I want to
recognize that like we weretalking about last year. I think
it was last year you and I had anumber of conversations in which
you said something to the effectof, I really, really want to
make friends and it I know it'shard for me to do that, but I'm
just gonna do it. And you did.
You've taken some
Morgan (19:47):
steps well. And when you say taken some steps, the
important thing is takinginitiative, right? I am not
typically the initiator ofanything when it comes to
interacting with other people.
People I wait to be spoken to. Iwait to be asked to go to
dinner. I wait, I wait, I wait.
(20:08):
And so sitting on my couchwaiting, I'm not going to make
any new friends, right? And so,yes, there was a moment, I don't
know, a year or two ago where Ithought, well, I'm going to be
really intentional about makingnew friends or nurturing the
friendships I already have,right? So that did look like me
awkwardly reaching out to acouple of people that that
(20:29):
again, there was a commoninterest. There was something
that we that we did together. Wevolunteered at the farm with the
horses and all that kind ofstuff. So it's like, okay,
there's there's something there.
And I enjoy being around thesepeople. Let's, let's see if we
can go to dinner. So
Chris (20:44):
the horses are like, here, mountain biking, right?
Okay, yeah, we're doing good,yeah.
Morgan (20:51):
And so I did, I did the awkward thing. Now I did it by
text message. It was like, hey.
So I was thinking,
Chris (20:59):
Did you, I'm curious, like, did you actually put a few
extra E's in the hay, or Iprobably
Morgan (21:05):
spelled it, H, A, y, just kidding.
Chris (21:09):
That would have been clever shit. If you would have
sent me that, I would have beenyour friend.
Morgan (21:15):
Okay? But to your point, like it does feel, it felt a
little bit like asking peopleout on a date. You know, it's so
weird. It's so weird. But Ijust, I base, I don't remember
exactly what I said, but it wassomething to the effect of, we
should all go to dinnersometime. I'm really looking to
make more friends. I just put itout there, you know, which some
(21:38):
people might have been like, ohmy god, loser. But it was
important for me to just name itso that I felt a little bit less
awkward. And, you know, take itor leave it. But we did. We went
out a couple of different timesand had a really good time. We
haven't continued that, but itwas a great exercise for me to
(21:58):
realize that I can be the one toYeah. To be the initiator,
right? And not only that, but inthis stage of life, we have to
be really intentional. We can'tjust wait until everybody else
is not busy to reach out to usand say, Hey, let's go. Let's go
out to dinner. Let's go mountainbiking
Chris (22:19):
or, yeah, well, we can't.
It's not fair to assign busynessto someone else, like, that's
their choice to make. Yeah, andhow they prioritize their time
is their choice to make. Like, Ican't forecast that,
Morgan (22:31):
and I think it's important to to extend grace to
people, you know, like it's itcan feel sometimes like, oh,
that friend doesn't care aboutme, or I'm not important,
because they don't have time forme, right? The reality is like
there's not a lot of time,right? I know that from my own
(22:52):
experience, and I know that Icare about the friends that I
have, and so I hope that theydon't take it personally. If it
takes me two days to respond toa
Chris (23:01):
text, right? I want to go back to your story about asking
people to dinner. And one of thethings that I heard there, that
I love, and I think it's worthcalling out, is for you to do
that was a level ofvulnerability. You had to say, I
am looking for friends, and I'masking for that, and that does
(23:21):
feel, can feel a little bitawkward, and back to friendship
at its deepest level, thosepeople that are on the short
list, so to speak, that's reallywhat happens in those kinds of
friendships, is just, I'm gonnacall it the naked Soul. It's
like you are just who you are,and they are who they are, and
(23:44):
that's what it is, yeah, andthat's what those deep, running
friendships are, at least forme. And you don't start there,
right, but don't, but you canset the tone, and that's why I'm
calling this out, because youmaking that reach, regardless of
whether it developed oranything, it was setting a tone,
yes, and the tone was like, Thisis what I'm looking for, and
(24:08):
whether they met you with thator not, isn't the point? The
point is that's the tone youset. Yes,
Morgan (24:14):
I am tired myself, personally, of these very
surfacey sort of interactionsthat I have with other adults
these very like, oh, wine nightat so and so's house, and we're
gonna have a conversation for 30seconds about something really
mundane and like, surfacey, likeI am just really my time is
(24:39):
important and valuable to me,much like everybody else's is to
them. And I just don't, I don'tfucking have time for that. If
I'm going to spend time outsideof my busy life, day to day
life, I want it to be juicy,like I want it to be meaningful.
And so those are the kinds offriends. Tips that I want well,
(25:01):
and
Chris (25:01):
I think that the power of understanding that is that you
can just get to the point, yeah.
Like, back to the idea that timeis a valuable resource. So,
like, if you're gonna have acertain amount of time dedicated
towards friendships, whetherthat's developing, fostering
rekindling or whatever, like,make it valuable, yeah,
Morgan (25:22):
show up and and let's talk about something fucking
real, right? One of the otherthings that I've done, okay, but
my cross pollinator friend, sheis one, one of these people that
knows everybody in the world,okay? Everybody knows who this
person is, right? I know who itis. You know who it is.
Everybody knows who this personis. And I actually told her, I
(25:45):
said, Listen, I really am in themarket to engage in some
friendships, yeah, because I hadfelt really isolated since,
like, since quarantine, youknow, I had noticed there had
been a real drop off. And so Imentioned that to her back when
I was being intentional aboutthis. And so she's like, You
know what, I am in a book clubthat you would probably love,
(26:05):
and that was right up my alley,because these are people who
like to read, and they like toread real books that have some
interesting underlying themethat brings about some real
conversation. And so she said.
And I looked at her, and I waslike, Okay, wait, is this like,
you read the book, and then yougo and you party because I don't
do and then you're hung over thenext day because I don't want to
(26:28):
do that. She's like, No, no, weactually talk about the book.
And it's like, an hour and ahalf, and you're done, and you
go home. And I was like, Thissounds to
Chris (26:39):
be true. You mean, I can still sit on the couch,
Morgan (26:46):
and so she invited me to go, and it's I've been doing it
ever since we meet once a month.
And I love it. I love it becausewhat it does is it allows me to
be around these women who havedifferent sorts of lives, you
know, but we talk aboutsomething real, and even if I
don't connect with these womenoutside of book club, that may
(27:08):
change, I don't know, but as ofright now, it's it's still
pretty much confined to that itis just a lovely experience, And
I leave there almost everysingle time, feeling like, wow,
that was the best way to spendthat hour and a half. Yeah,
like, it brings me life. So arethere any things that you do
(27:29):
right now to sort of foster newconnections, make new
friendships? No, that's notreally on your radar as much
Chris (27:40):
well as I've kind of alluded to, I am straddling a
couple of different worlds, andwhat it feels like is this, on a
weekly basis, I'm by myself allweek, and I work and, you know,
I do like I always have beensomeone who's pretty good at
picking up The phone andmaintaining connection. You are
(28:02):
good at that. Yeah, so I stilldo that. I've always done that.
It's not a particularly newthing, but in terms of, like,
other things, I would like toget into the mountain biking,
but the days are starting to getlonger, so there's more light
and there's more opportunity todo stuff after work right now at
this time in the year, but thenon the weekend, I'm really busy
(28:23):
with my girlfriend and her kids,and, you know, we're doing
stuff, so I'm kind of back intothat life, right? I'm going back
and forth,
Morgan (28:32):
yeah, well, and you bring up a point there, and you
sort of touched on it earlier,when you're in the life with
your partner and her kids,right? And their friends
parents, right? You sort of havethis a little bit of a built in.
There's like a sweet spot inyour kids lives where you're
(28:53):
hanging out with those parents alot, right?
Chris (28:56):
And you know, for us, my partner and her kids, we've
actually gone on trips withparents of the kids friends, and
spent a lot of time and done alot of things, and that has been
rewarding and fun, and there isthis great level of commonality
in the kids, but thosefriendships are different than
(29:18):
the ones that are just sort ofborn from me showing up and
saying, You know what? Like, I'mChris Peterson, and this is what
I'm about, and the other personsaying, I'm so and so, and this
is what I'm about, and thenthere being a connection, and to
the point of the short list andthese friends that are at the
(29:38):
deepest level, I do think that,if we're lucky in a lifetime, we
have a couple of those, youknow, and that doesn't discount
the power of other friendshipsthat are maybe not as deep at
all. Yeah, I love those. But thecommon theme is putting yourself
out there, and when you get tothat inner. Direction of the
(30:01):
great scattering of the familylife, right? Yeah, like the
empty nest, yeah. There's amoment where that takes on new
light, at least it has for me.
And that's a little bit of thatpicking up of what I remember
from being a youth is like, I'mnot showing up as a
representation of my child or mypartner's children, or I'm just
(30:22):
me again. Yeah, right, who theWho's that? It's cool, though I
like it,
Morgan (30:31):
yeah, well, and I think that's what you're talking about
when you when you say, Okay,what is it about these deeper
friendships, your ride or dies?
Yeah, what are the qualitiesthat are showing up there that
make it so deep and meaningful.
It's authenticity. It's showingup as who you are. Yes,
Chris (30:47):
in fact, when Jamie and I get together, his wife will be
like, Oh, God, you guys aregetting together, and she calls
our friendship a bromance. But,you know, the way that I
translate that is, it's complex.
It's a complex relationship, andit runs on many levels. And at
the core of it, it really isjust a lot of vulnerability. And
(31:08):
I remember there was oneparticular moment years ago when
we were having a conversationand he said something like he
just looked at me, and I can'tremember what we were talking
about, but it was heavy. And hesaid, Why do you just it's like,
you just reach into the guts ofit and just pull it out and put
(31:30):
it on the table and say, we'regonna talk about this. Yeah. And
he's like, then I feel like Ihave to talk about it.
Morgan (31:39):
You know, I'm really curious, being a man, this whole
idea of a bromance, yes? Like, Ithink it's easier for women.
Women can live in a little bitmore of this vulnerable state.
Like, it's more, quote,acceptable, right? How do you
think that impacts men infriendships? Yeah, I think
Chris (31:58):
that it, it can be really hard. It's not as well accepted
for men to be physicallyaffectionate, hug each other and
just be close, and at least notin a lot of cultures, and I
would include ours in that Idon't know. It does get a little
bit more complicated, and thatwhole idea of the balance
(32:20):
between masculinity and beingvulnerable and more explicit
about the emotional side of lifeand some of those other
feelings, right? And I wouldsay, like in my experience of
what Jamie's wife calls abromance, like it's the it's the
whole range, right? There's alot of masculinity, yeah, but
(32:42):
there's also a lot of the otherstuff too, yeah, right, because
we're all just people, and how
Morgan (32:48):
did that happen? Do you think, Oh, my God, like for
other men out there that maybewant that, but don't know. I'm
just curious. Is that somethingyou were even conscious of?
Chris (32:58):
Well, when we first met, we hated each other. Are you
serious? I didn't know that.
Yeah, we did. There was likethis competitive thing that went
on. And then for whateverreason, we actually finally had
a real conversation, like we hadjust been posturing at each
other, basically. And this islike 20 something year old,
yeah, years and years ago, andfor whatever reason, we had an
(33:21):
actual conversation, and thatwas it like there was just a
sync up almost immediately, atleast in my experience, and that
sort of connection just grewnaturally. And I think there's
just some level of, I don't knowwhat to call it, chance or luck
or fate. Yeah, if we're lucky,we encounter that sort of
(33:44):
connection a couple times in alifetime, or hopefully more, but
and
Morgan (33:51):
hold on to it. What's also interesting too is, for
example, Jamie right? Jamie'ssomeone who lives not right next
to you. He is not someone thatyou see every day or talk to
every day. For me, I've got afriend that is that way, and
there's something really coolabout being able to whenever we
do get together. And I'm curiousif this is your experience with
(34:13):
Jamie, whenever we do gettogether, it's like this instant
reconnect, and we almost likedownload all the information
Yeah, that we need to to know,to just get caught back up and
then get back into the deeperstuff. Yeah, you know what I
mean I do. It's not just like,well, how are you and what are
you up to, and, let alone, youknow, we get to the meat of
Chris (34:33):
it, yeah? Like, the analogy that I think about is
it's almost like the friendshipgoes into this deep freeze,
yeah, and then it's just like,Flash thought, yeah, when you
get together, you know thatconnection is just somehow been
put in a suspended state, andthen
Morgan (34:49):
it reawakens, which I think is really cool to have
that kind of connection. It
Chris (34:53):
is. And there's a bit of that to me that's very
mysterious. I can't reallyexplain why that. And with some
people. And the other thing thatI think is really interesting,
if I think about, like, longterm connections with people. So
there are from that period inlife, before the first grade,
scattering College and theleaving of the family unit that
(35:17):
we grew up in. There are twopeople that I still stay
connected with, not on a like,really constant level. It's
pretty distant. But when I talkwith either one of them, it's
almost like tapping into acertain layer of life like it.
It almost takes me back a littlebit to the layer when that
(35:39):
friendship was more active. Doesthat make sense? Yeah, it's
like, I've heard this anecdotebefore that sometimes when you
get together with old collegebuddies, you start feeling like
you're acting like you're incollege again. It's that sort of
thing. Yeah, friends
Morgan (35:54):
can sort of be snapshots of yourself, yeah? Weird way,
Chris (35:59):
a version of yourself and or like the life that was
surrounding you at that time andthe feelings that were involved
in that so how
Morgan (36:08):
do we stay a good friend? Well,
Chris (36:10):
I think part of being a good friend is and this
correlates with beingvulnerable, but it it's the
ability to be present and reallyjust show up and be there. And
you know, the honest truth is,what makes these deep
friendships, what really drivesthem is like those tough moments
(36:33):
when the person just sits withyou, or you sit with them, yeah,
and it's the deepest, mostcathartic acceptance of the fact
that we don't know what the fuckwe're doing, but we're just
doing it together. That
Morgan (36:46):
goes back to that vulnerability and that feeling
safe enough with someone,because when you're doing that,
when you're showing up, feelingsafe and secure. You know, I
read this book called platonicby Marisa Franco, which I'll
link in the show notes. But shetalks about how when you are not
(37:06):
being self protective, youaren't worried about defending
yourself, you're not puttingyour time and energy into that
right gives the space and theair for you to take care of the
relationship itself, yes, andthat is where that depth and
meaning is born.
Chris (37:24):
And I love that you went a little further into that,
because that putting down of thearmor, or letting go of the self
protection, is what allows thespace to be present. Yeah, to
really be present. What's
Morgan (37:39):
your micronutrients from this,
Chris (37:41):
that it's important to dedicate some time to
friendships, and that showing upauthentically is an important
piece. It's also like a good wayto be efficient about using that
time is showing upauthentically, and that
rekindling a friendship and ormaintaining a friendship and, or
(38:02):
developing a friendship includesspending intensive time and
doing big things sometimes, butit doesn't always have to. And I
think as we have thisdiscussion, I'm reminded that
those little investments ofsending that photo of something
that you both like or relate toor, yeah, those things done over
(38:26):
time, they just add up. Yeah,
Morgan (38:29):
it's the little things.
Yeah. What about you? All ofwhat you said, I agree. The
thing I'm working on morecontinuing to work on is this
whole being the initiator, beingproactive. Yeah? Because I'm
just not great at that anyway,in a lot of areas of my life.
But I have seen that even indoing the awkward thing, taking
(38:50):
the awkward step, it's worthdoing to spark something, and
also I kind of want to normalizejust actually having a
conversation with someone whoI'm interested in actually
having a deeper friendship with,right? You know, like, I just
think that could be beneficial.
Yeah, I was listening to one ofmy favorite Emily Von D. She's
(39:14):
she's on Instagram. She cracksme up. And I watched one of her
stories on Instagram once shewas sitting in her car, and
actually one of her kids was inher car seat asleep or
something. So she's just sittingin the car talking to the phone.
She said, she's like, Oh my god,I'm so embarrassed. I went to
the my kids carpool line, andlike, she had gone out for
(39:37):
margaritas or something at somepoint with with one of these
ladies, and she's like, Oh mygod, I found out that we we have
a mutual friend and such a shewas so excited. She's like, so
we just had the greatest time.
And I was just like, Oh my gosh.
Is she feeling this? I'm feelingthis. You know, it's just like,
and she said, so then I saw herin standing outside the school
(39:59):
at. Drop off time, and I walkedup to her, and she was, like,
talking to the principal of theschool or something, and I
smacked her on the butt, justlike, as a joke, and she's like,
and I immediately regretted it.
We're not there yet. And Iloved, I just loved witnessing
(40:20):
her inner dialog about this,because it is so much of like, I
don't know, like, what, whatlevel are we, you know, and
what's okay and what's not okay.
And it just felt so real.
Chris (40:34):
And the funny thing is, like, we talk about that a lot
in romantic relationships, butthat same sort of tension and
confusion and insecurity showsup in in all relationships. Yes,
yeah, very much. So it justseems less accepted to talk
about it like in the friendshipsetting. I don't know, yeah, so
Morgan (40:54):
I guess that's part of what I'm saying is like, I want
to normalize that a little bit.
Yeah, not that I'm saying wegotta put pressure or labels on
things well, but like, what harmwould it be to say I re like, I
really love hanging out withyou. Like, right? I consider you
a good friend. So
Chris (41:10):
the phrase that keeps ringing in my head right now is,
don't make a big deal about it.
Just make the reach and see whathappens. Yeah, doesn't have
Morgan (41:19):
to be a big thing, but it can be hugely valuable, for
sure, to do it and to hear it,to be on the receiving end of
something like that. Wow. Likeif someone said that to me and I
wasn't necessarily expecting it,that would feel nice, right? So
I have some awkward texts tosend good make
Chris (41:34):
them funny. I'm happy to pre review.
Morgan (41:38):
Oh, and if you want to be our friend, join our
community
Chris (41:41):
at the midlife mud.com/join
Morgan (41:44):
all right. Well, we will see you next time in the mud.
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